WEBVTT 00:00.655 --> 00:01.636 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm Jamie Cochran. 00:01.916 --> 00:02.997 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm Life Babin. 00:03.017 --> 00:03.458 [SPEAKER_00]: Lead Wind. 00:03.718 --> 00:05.199 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm Extreme Watership Podcast. 00:06.341 --> 00:09.864 [SPEAKER_00]: We're back and once again, we have V. Jaco Willing, Join us. 00:10.164 --> 00:11.626 [SPEAKER_00]: Join us on the podcast today. 00:11.646 --> 00:16.330 [SPEAKER_00]: The topic for today is building a culture of decentralized command. 00:16.350 --> 00:18.212 [SPEAKER_00]: And how do we do that within our organization? 00:18.292 --> 00:24.098 [SPEAKER_00]: Because we say, at Ashland from all the time, that decentralized command is the ultimate form of culture. 00:24.558 --> 00:26.460 [SPEAKER_00]: So how do we do that in our organizations? 00:27.875 --> 00:47.824 [SPEAKER_03]: As far as I'm concerned, one of the first things that you need to do as a leader is recognize that you are going to do everything in your power to give up your power, which is a really difficult thing for people to understand, because 00:48.445 --> 00:55.596 [SPEAKER_03]: We've been going to college and taking these courses and moving up the corporate ladder and making the maneuvers to get that power. 00:56.517 --> 01:06.072 [SPEAKER_03]: Or whatever you've been doing to get that power and now you got the power and what I'm telling you in your no leadership position, your goal as soon as you get there should be, I'm gonna give this power away. 01:06.793 --> 01:11.420 [SPEAKER_03]: And if you do that, that's the beginning of decentralized command. 01:11.760 --> 01:13.643 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to give my power away. 01:13.893 --> 01:18.547 [SPEAKER_00]: That is counterintuitive, though, to how most people feel when they get in that leadership role. 01:18.588 --> 01:20.754 [SPEAKER_00]: So what's the benefit of giving up that power? 01:20.814 --> 01:22.941 [SPEAKER_00]: What do you gain by creating that culture? 01:23.326 --> 01:27.150 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think it feels good to your ego, right, to be in charge and to make calls. 01:27.230 --> 01:30.694 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think this just goes back to like, what is a leader? 01:31.255 --> 01:41.206 [SPEAKER_01]: When people have an idea of what a leader should be, it's someone who stands up in front of the room and has all the answers and dictates the plan and tells everybody what to do. 01:42.007 --> 01:48.114 [SPEAKER_01]: And the reality is, it wasn't really that time I work for Jaco and to ask him to bruise her that I got to see what good leadership looks like. 01:48.194 --> 01:52.219 [SPEAKER_01]: We're Jaco even though he had way more experience than me in the SEAL teams. 01:52.199 --> 02:20.738 [SPEAKER_01]: would come to me and my put in and say hey here's the goal why don't you come up with a plan and tell me how you want to solve that problem and so just by he's giving the power ways allowing us to actually make the calls come up with the plans I mean he's still at approval of the plans you can't tell you get the responsibility but that's what true leadership looks like and that's this idea of decentralized command where everybody leads you might think that you want people just to shut up and do what you say and that's what you want 02:21.494 --> 02:23.256 [SPEAKER_01]: That's not the way to lead an effective team. 02:23.296 --> 02:31.626 [SPEAKER_01]: The most effective teams are leaders at every level that understand what the goal is and they're all stepping up to lead to solve problems to move forward toward the goal. 02:31.646 --> 02:45.122 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a team that can react to problems, solve problems, overcome obstacles, make things happen, and that team will run circles around a team with centralized leadership of one leader that hasn't given their powerway but dictates the plan to everyone. 02:45.355 --> 02:50.991 [SPEAKER_00]: Before you get to that point, though, of giving your power away, you have to have the foundational basis of trust. 02:51.513 --> 02:54.482 [SPEAKER_00]: So what's the first step for leaders to start to give up that power? 02:54.502 --> 02:59.095 [SPEAKER_00]: To start to implement these centralized command and empower their people to make decisions at their level. 02:59.395 --> 03:08.148 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, the interesting thing is that when you're working with other human beings, you're naturally in an environment where you have these opportunities to train people. 03:08.589 --> 03:12.915 [SPEAKER_03]: You have the opportunity to let them take the lead on this small part of a plan. 03:12.975 --> 03:15.359 [SPEAKER_03]: You have the opportunity to let them brief something. 03:15.379 --> 03:21.488 [SPEAKER_03]: You have the opportunity to let them gather the information about something and come up with an idea on how to solve a problem. 03:21.468 --> 03:31.005 [SPEAKER_03]: The world is filled with training opportunity and whatever business you're in or whatever team you're associated with the reason you have a team is because you're trying to get something done. 03:31.385 --> 03:38.117 [SPEAKER_03]: So that thing that you're trying to get done, if you frame it properly, it can be utilized to train people. 03:38.658 --> 03:40.962 [SPEAKER_03]: And by train them, I mean, 03:40.942 --> 03:42.544 [SPEAKER_03]: allow them to step up and lead. 03:42.724 --> 03:51.996 [SPEAKER_03]: Now, clearly, that doesn't mean when life started working for me, I said, oh, late, we're going, you know, we've got a mission tasking tonight for a giant operation. 03:52.036 --> 03:53.638 [SPEAKER_03]: I met you four hours ago. 03:53.978 --> 04:03.530 [SPEAKER_03]: Why don't you just go ahead and you go and run this mission, which you haven't, you don't have much experience at, and I'm going to go out to dinner with my wife and kids, and tell me how it goes. 04:03.810 --> 04:04.812 [SPEAKER_03]: No, we're not doing that. 04:05.432 --> 04:06.994 [SPEAKER_03]: But to say, hey, we've got this mission. 04:07.395 --> 04:08.316 [SPEAKER_03]: Hey, 04:08.296 --> 04:14.510 [SPEAKER_03]: The mission is that the take down of these various buildings, why don't you run the external security element? 04:15.131 --> 04:20.784 [SPEAKER_03]: Come up with a plan on where you guys want to set up, where do you want to position the vehicles, where do you want to put your team and let him come up with this plan? 04:20.924 --> 04:26.136 [SPEAKER_03]: And again, because it's his first time doing this with me, I'm going to be a little bit more. 04:26.116 --> 04:39.498 [SPEAKER_03]: Intrusive in going through the plan, making sure it all makes sense, asking questions about it, seeing if there's any holes, and that opportunity for him to step up and lead is also an opportunity for me to show him that I'm giving him some trust. 04:40.300 --> 04:52.680 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm allowing him to come up with a plan and as long as it's not totally insane and tactically unsound, if it fits within the principles 04:53.335 --> 04:54.697 [SPEAKER_03]: It's going to be it's going to be fine. 04:54.997 --> 05:02.486 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, there's a lot of there's a lot of people that get caught up in the decision between six or a half a dozen. 05:03.448 --> 05:06.732 [SPEAKER_03]: There's a reason that expression exists because like, oh, no, I think it would be six. 05:06.752 --> 05:07.893 [SPEAKER_03]: No, I think it should be a half a dozen. 05:08.133 --> 05:14.561 [SPEAKER_03]: No, I think it should be six or I think people will go to war over that, go to war over six or a half dozen. 05:15.102 --> 05:15.963 [SPEAKER_03]: We see it all the time. 05:16.424 --> 05:18.246 [SPEAKER_03]: So don't do that. 05:18.226 --> 05:21.189 [SPEAKER_03]: Doesn't matter if it's six or if it's a half dozen, doesn't really matter. 05:21.610 --> 05:24.713 [SPEAKER_03]: Allow the person a little leeway and allow them to come up with a plan. 05:25.314 --> 05:32.761 [SPEAKER_03]: And that is how we are going to lay the foundation that you just spoke of of having people that can then step up and lead. 05:33.282 --> 05:36.686 [SPEAKER_03]: And ultimately, over time they step up more and more. 05:36.866 --> 05:38.327 [SPEAKER_03]: They take a little bit more off your plate. 05:38.688 --> 05:39.969 [SPEAKER_03]: You give them more trust. 05:40.870 --> 05:43.253 [SPEAKER_03]: You allow them more leeway. 05:43.653 --> 05:45.275 [SPEAKER_03]: And eventually you've got someone that's going to step up. 05:45.295 --> 05:47.457 [SPEAKER_03]: And hopefully be able to take your job. 05:47.842 --> 05:56.414 [SPEAKER_00]: I have definitely been the beneficiary of that at echelon front when I joined both of you guys, and it was just the three of us, and I was looking for ways to add value. 05:56.454 --> 06:04.745 [SPEAKER_00]: I was looking for ways to contribute, and you know, maybe lacking a little bit of confidence in what I was doing, because it was a new company, and there was a lot of things that we were still learning. 06:05.306 --> 06:07.769 [SPEAKER_02]: And one of the best, you definitely fold me. 06:08.109 --> 06:11.554 [SPEAKER_02]: I thought you got a pretty good handle on it all, I mean, if you never did it before. 06:11.939 --> 06:14.786 [SPEAKER_00]: But I think what was so good is that you gave me the freedom to do that. 06:14.946 --> 06:16.690 [SPEAKER_00]: You helped me in building that confidence. 06:16.730 --> 06:26.893 [SPEAKER_00]: And one of the best examples, and I've told the story many times, is the one question you would ask me every time I call you with a problem or a situation or a client scenario. 06:27.475 --> 06:31.163 [SPEAKER_00]: I would call you with this question, and you would simply say, what do you think we should do? 06:31.143 --> 06:33.106 [SPEAKER_00]: and early on at echelon front. 06:33.907 --> 06:37.953 [SPEAKER_00]: My response to you is positive, but internally, I was thinking, Joko, that's why I'm calling you. 06:37.993 --> 06:39.896 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, just tell me what you want me to do here. 06:39.936 --> 06:46.626 [SPEAKER_00]: But I use saw an opportunity to give me that power in helping to decide what we, how we solve this problem. 06:47.147 --> 06:56.380 [SPEAKER_00]: And what that translated to over time is the more that you asked me that question, the less I approached that question with that sense of frustration of like, hey, that's why I'm calling you. 06:56.821 --> 07:00.947 [SPEAKER_00]: And the more I started to recognize it, you were giving me that opportunity 07:00.927 --> 07:03.851 [SPEAKER_00]: So over time, that became, hey, Joko, we have this problem. 07:03.891 --> 07:04.932 [SPEAKER_00]: Here's what I think we should do. 07:05.052 --> 07:06.554 [SPEAKER_00]: And I would come to you now with solutions. 07:07.335 --> 07:10.018 [SPEAKER_00]: And over time, it got even better. 07:10.059 --> 07:12.702 [SPEAKER_00]: And that became, hey, Joko, this is the problem. 07:12.782 --> 07:14.003 [SPEAKER_00]: We have this is what I did to solve it. 07:14.024 --> 07:14.945 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just giving you a head-up. 07:15.505 --> 07:21.853 [SPEAKER_00]: But that took time of building that trust mutually between us and building in my confidence to make decisions at my level. 07:21.913 --> 07:25.698 [SPEAKER_00]: When we were building something from scratch, and I didn't always have the right answer. 07:26.319 --> 07:27.120 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 07:27.353 --> 07:33.000 [SPEAKER_03]: And the thing is also, I was learning about you and you were learning about me. 07:33.040 --> 07:50.121 [SPEAKER_03]: You were starting to understand what my thought process was and I was starting to understand what your thought process was and maybe if you were a person that had like some crazy risk of version and you'd say, you know, well, I've booked you four flights for tomorrow afternoon, just in case something happens and, you know, I'd say, well, 07:50.101 --> 07:51.663 [SPEAKER_03]: You probably don't need foreign flights. 07:51.883 --> 07:53.365 [SPEAKER_03]: If I miss the flights, it's okay. 07:53.385 --> 07:56.569 [SPEAKER_03]: I'll go out the next morning and you say, oh, okay, so he's not that paranoid about this thing. 07:57.009 --> 08:02.816 [SPEAKER_03]: So we you learn how I think I learn how you think and that way also when I learn that you're super risk averse. 08:03.277 --> 08:06.541 [SPEAKER_03]: I can say, oh, hey, Jamie, by the way, don't worry about this thing over here. 08:06.561 --> 08:10.425 [SPEAKER_03]: I knew you might be a little paranoid about that, but it's not going to be an issue and you go, okay. 08:10.866 --> 08:16.733 [SPEAKER_03]: And so we start to have a mutual mutual understanding of each other and that is 08:16.713 --> 08:23.719 [SPEAKER_03]: effectively what trusts what trust develops from is we understand each other we understand what the goal is and we're both trying to make the same thing happen. 08:24.360 --> 08:24.460 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 08:25.681 --> 08:27.102 [SPEAKER_01]: I think your your story is a great one. 08:27.122 --> 08:42.516 [SPEAKER_01]: I think to tell you, let's try to be what decentralized command actually looks like because I think so often, you chocolate just gave the example right of the boss at just like, oh, decentralized command just throw things at people that they're not capable of doing or you don't really have any trust from now on to them and you don't really have that established relationships. 08:42.797 --> 08:43.597 [SPEAKER_01]: These things take time. 08:43.617 --> 08:45.319 [SPEAKER_01]: You have to have some tactical patience. 08:45.299 --> 08:56.291 [SPEAKER_01]: and small intercepts of giving them more and more and more as they demonstrate competency and you're building up, they're on confidence in their abilities as well as your confidence in them. 08:56.311 --> 08:59.995 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's the same thing from the other side too, right? 09:00.015 --> 09:02.397 [SPEAKER_01]: It is so many people are eager to take on more. 09:02.437 --> 09:04.579 [SPEAKER_01]: They want more, they want more opportunities. 09:04.599 --> 09:05.841 [SPEAKER_01]: They want to get promoted at the chain. 09:05.881 --> 09:07.482 [SPEAKER_01]: They want a leadership opportunity. 09:08.103 --> 09:09.945 [SPEAKER_01]: And so these things take time. 09:09.965 --> 09:11.266 [SPEAKER_01]: You gotta have tactical patience. 09:11.847 --> 09:12.808 [SPEAKER_01]: And you definitely did that. 09:12.788 --> 09:16.192 [SPEAKER_01]: You came and joined us when echelon front was me and Jaco. 09:16.352 --> 09:20.156 [SPEAKER_01]: And nobody else gave you the title of director of operations. 09:20.316 --> 09:24.301 [SPEAKER_01]: We were the director of operations for no one, but me and Jaco. 09:24.761 --> 09:27.204 [SPEAKER_01]: So, but it was, I know that was a step down for you. 09:27.224 --> 09:30.628 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you basically were a part-time admin assistant. 09:30.648 --> 09:35.814 [SPEAKER_01]: I think you were working for, it was 25 hours a week or something like that. 09:36.414 --> 09:36.514 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 09:36.534 --> 09:39.918 [SPEAKER_01]: That we had you limited to initially, because we, I mean, we just, we didn't have the money to really pay. 09:39.938 --> 09:41.580 [SPEAKER_00]: I think we started the 10. 09:41.645 --> 09:44.621 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe it started at 10 initially, yeah, and then we went to, you know, then we went to 25. 09:44.762 --> 09:48.381 [SPEAKER_01]: It was a slow incremental buildup, and 09:48.698 --> 09:54.707 [SPEAKER_01]: you would see an opportunity to step in and take on something and take something off of our plate. 09:54.727 --> 09:55.468 [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, I can do this. 09:56.170 --> 09:57.872 [SPEAKER_01]: And hey, I could talk to clients. 09:57.892 --> 09:58.673 [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, I could book travel. 09:58.774 --> 09:59.274 [SPEAKER_01]: I could do this. 09:59.635 --> 10:02.900 [SPEAKER_01]: And as you took that off our plate, I was like, this is awesome. 10:02.920 --> 10:04.402 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's give Jamie Moore, let's give Jamie Moore. 10:05.164 --> 10:08.348 [SPEAKER_01]: And now you're the chief operating officer of wheat. 10:08.368 --> 10:12.014 [SPEAKER_01]: We have 50 employees and a dozen, 10, 99s. 10:12.034 --> 10:14.578 [SPEAKER_01]: And you're running everything at the company. 10:14.598 --> 10:17.102 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's in a great example of, 10:17.082 --> 10:20.285 [SPEAKER_01]: these things take time, you have to have some tactical patients. 10:20.325 --> 10:31.254 [SPEAKER_01]: And if you would have, at the beginning, if you would have demanded to be the chief operating officer, you know, for an exorbitant amount of pay that we didn't have, you would have even gotten that opportunity. 10:31.274 --> 10:39.041 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think so often people are very short-sighted, whether to look for a job straight at a college or whether they're eager to get promoted at the chain. 10:39.681 --> 10:40.882 [SPEAKER_01]: And they want that right now. 10:41.002 --> 10:46.347 [SPEAKER_01]: Instead of what you did, which is it took years of taking some things off 10:46.327 --> 11:03.795 [SPEAKER_01]: our plate showing that you were an asset to the team and creating the opportunity for yourself through decentralized command of being a leader and then all of a sudden you get really busy and you're like hey I've got more than I can handle can I hire someone else and then you hire someone else and someone else 11:03.775 --> 11:05.618 [SPEAKER_01]: So next, you know, you're building up your team. 11:06.179 --> 11:12.591 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think people have to have that long terms strategic view that you may not have the job offer right now. 11:12.652 --> 11:13.914 [SPEAKER_01]: You may not have the title right now. 11:13.934 --> 11:15.918 [SPEAKER_01]: You may not have the pay that you want right now. 11:16.499 --> 11:23.151 [SPEAKER_01]: But if you can go be a part of a team that you want to work with and a mission that you can get behind and you 11:23.131 --> 11:27.701 [SPEAKER_01]: take on something and take things off people's plates and do a great job and work super hard. 11:28.042 --> 11:35.057 [SPEAKER_01]: You will create the opportunities for yourself through decentralized command and you will be where you want to be. 11:35.077 --> 11:38.806 [SPEAKER_01]: It might take a little longer than you might want, but you will create those opportunities. 11:39.146 --> 11:40.870 [SPEAKER_01]: Strategic win. 11:41.525 --> 11:58.909 [SPEAKER_00]: But I think the reason I was able to be successful was based on the framework you guys gave me to do that because you implemented decentralized command, because you had a little bit of some left and right parameters and a framework in which I can operate in and gave me a ton of freedom to make decisions within that. 11:58.889 --> 12:00.271 [SPEAKER_00]: those parameters. 12:00.911 --> 12:12.123 [SPEAKER_00]: I built the confidence to step up and lead and execute at a high level, and then ultimately what that allowed us to do as Esslime Front grew was to implement decentralized command further down the chain as we brought more people on. 12:12.484 --> 12:27.360 [SPEAKER_00]: It gave me the confidence as a leader to then extend that same gift that you guys gave me, allowing them to step up and make decisions at their level and taking their insight and building in that trust, which has created an amazing 12:27.526 --> 12:35.456 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, yeah, while we're just sitting here patting each other on the back so much, I was so awesome at giving decentralized command and you were so awesome earning it. 12:36.177 --> 12:42.084 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, the reality that we sometimes run into is that the boss doesn't want to give anything up. 12:42.444 --> 12:47.430 [SPEAKER_03]: The boss just wants to keep control is a micro manager. 12:47.911 --> 12:55.440 [SPEAKER_03]: And so it's a little bit more of a challenging problem, but it's not an insurmountable problem. 12:56.197 --> 12:57.972 [SPEAKER_03]: want to have a little bit more control. 12:58.424 --> 13:02.328 [SPEAKER_03]: then what you have to do is you're just gonna have to work a little bit harder to gain their trust. 13:03.108 --> 13:04.229 [SPEAKER_03]: You might not be able to. 13:04.369 --> 13:06.411 [SPEAKER_03]: You might not be given things off my plate. 13:06.972 --> 13:11.096 [SPEAKER_03]: You might have to offer to take small pieces off my plate a little bit at a time. 13:11.876 --> 13:18.623 [SPEAKER_03]: And that can be take a little bit more convincing, but it is certainly something that can be done and I did it in the military a bunch. 13:19.143 --> 13:26.129 [SPEAKER_03]: You are in a platoon and you see what's happening in the platoon and you see opportunities where, oh, I think I could do that. 13:26.149 --> 13:27.891 [SPEAKER_03]: But this is your responsibility. 13:28.259 --> 13:30.321 [SPEAKER_03]: But it's something that I could handle. 13:30.341 --> 13:35.247 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I'm junior to you, and I can do that part of the prep for the operation. 13:35.267 --> 13:38.090 [SPEAKER_03]: I can get those radios waterproof, whatever that little minor thing is. 13:38.611 --> 13:42.376 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's not a huge thing to take off your plate, but it does develop trust. 13:42.416 --> 13:44.558 [SPEAKER_03]: I get the water, the radios waterproofed. 13:44.918 --> 13:46.681 [SPEAKER_03]: They go out on the operation. 13:46.881 --> 13:47.942 [SPEAKER_03]: The waterproof is effective. 13:48.302 --> 13:48.943 [SPEAKER_03]: Everything's good. 13:49.304 --> 13:50.085 [SPEAKER_03]: You start to trust me. 13:50.345 --> 13:54.790 [SPEAKER_03]: And I can slowly, again, it's just a, 13:54.770 --> 14:02.561 [SPEAKER_03]: a matter of having to work a little bit harder to pry things off of the plate of someone that's a little bit more of a micromanager. 14:02.801 --> 14:12.975 [SPEAKER_03]: As you know, that's, you know, I lean way towards decentralized command and I'm very, very willing to give things away and let other people do things as much as I possibly can. 14:13.276 --> 14:20.085 [SPEAKER_03]: That's literally my goal is to, like, have everybody do everything that they can do and me do nothing. 14:20.065 --> 14:37.450 [SPEAKER_03]: right me do nothing and you know I used to joke about this in the in the seal teams was I'd say hey if you're the platoon commander you're on an assault your goal should be you don't do anything Right your goal should be oh I'm just sitting in the humvee and I'm watching the operation and everything takes place without me doing anything 14:38.037 --> 14:42.942 [SPEAKER_03]: And that is your goal, because if you're an effective leader, that's a beautiful spot to be in. 14:43.103 --> 14:49.530 [SPEAKER_03]: And that way, when something does happen, you're at a better altitude to solve the problem. 14:49.550 --> 14:56.097 [SPEAKER_03]: You're also more aware of problems that might be occurring that are outside the scheme of maneuver that you're actually that your platoon is doing. 14:56.597 --> 15:00.822 [SPEAKER_03]: So the idea that you are going to 15:00.802 --> 15:04.371 [SPEAKER_03]: Earn things off of someone's play is very powerful. 15:04.672 --> 15:06.577 [SPEAKER_03]: Some people will give them to you more openly. 15:06.878 --> 15:08.582 [SPEAKER_03]: Some people are going to have to work a little harder for. 15:08.903 --> 15:09.785 [SPEAKER_03]: Don't get discouraged. 15:10.006 --> 15:13.495 [SPEAKER_03]: You just had to just take a little bit more time and and you can get there. 15:13.795 --> 15:17.941 [SPEAKER_01]: We've often said that it's not on the boss to give you trust, right? 15:17.961 --> 15:19.724 [SPEAKER_01]: It's on you to earn the boss's trust. 15:19.744 --> 15:26.113 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think if you take ownership of that, then that will give you that patience to start to think about those incremental steps. 15:26.955 --> 15:28.076 [SPEAKER_01]: This is extremely hard. 15:28.096 --> 15:29.498 [SPEAKER_01]: It's extremely hard to give that stuff away. 15:29.518 --> 15:31.922 [SPEAKER_01]: And one example of that that I can think of, 15:31.902 --> 15:44.534 [SPEAKER_01]: is just a few years ago as that's on front is growing and I had taken on all these administrative duties myself as we launched the company and certainly Jamie had taken on some of those as well but there were still some things that I was doing. 15:44.795 --> 15:46.519 [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't take on any of them by the way. 15:47.326 --> 15:48.628 [SPEAKER_01]: I could tell you all of those. 15:49.729 --> 15:52.552 [SPEAKER_01]: All of all of administrative duties are not on me. 15:52.712 --> 15:56.717 [SPEAKER_01]: All the administrative duties, Jacob was great at delegating, which I highly recommend. 15:57.278 --> 16:04.045 [SPEAKER_01]: But I remember conversations that we had a few years ago, Jacob, when you, I was having trouble giving up some of these things, right? 16:04.065 --> 16:08.030 [SPEAKER_01]: Because I've always done them, and it's, you get used to doing this stuff. 16:08.090 --> 16:09.091 [SPEAKER_01]: It's hard to do that, right? 16:09.111 --> 16:14.678 [SPEAKER_01]: Your ego's involved in that, you feel like, hey, if I don't do it, I'm the one that has to do it, just to make sure it's done right. 16:14.698 --> 16:15.679 [SPEAKER_01]: All right, you can do it better. 16:15.659 --> 16:18.743 [SPEAKER_01]: And if you want something right, you have to do it yourself, right? 16:18.963 --> 16:22.849 [SPEAKER_01]: There's all these old things that are not true, right? 16:22.869 --> 16:23.490 [SPEAKER_01]: They're not true. 16:23.670 --> 16:27.375 [SPEAKER_01]: And that you can never lead through decentralized community if you actually believe that way. 16:27.976 --> 16:30.359 [SPEAKER_01]: But you actually asked me a question with somebody's administrative duties. 16:30.559 --> 16:32.822 [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, do you actually like doing that? 16:34.344 --> 16:38.970 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was fighting so hard to like, you know, hang on to some of these duties that I was doing. 16:38.990 --> 16:41.734 [SPEAKER_01]: And as I thought about that question, I thought, 16:42.153 --> 16:43.637 [SPEAKER_01]: no actually I don't like doing that at all. 16:44.319 --> 16:45.563 [SPEAKER_01]: I like talking about leadership. 16:45.663 --> 16:47.188 [SPEAKER_01]: I like engaging with our clients. 16:47.208 --> 16:51.179 [SPEAKER_01]: I like helping them solve their problems with leadership and seeing the impact of that. 16:51.219 --> 16:52.042 [SPEAKER_01]: This is what I like to do. 16:52.563 --> 16:54.589 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't like these administrative duties at all. 16:55.050 --> 16:57.377 [SPEAKER_01]: And so you're like well just just give that to somebody else. 16:57.357 --> 17:06.198 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was really eye-opening for me because I didn't even realize I was clinging on to this stuff until you asked me that question, it's like, oh yeah, I'm definitely clinging on this stuff. 17:06.218 --> 17:07.421 [SPEAKER_01]: And my ego's wrapped up in that. 17:07.782 --> 17:13.917 [SPEAKER_01]: And the moment that I gave that stuff away, I could focus on the things that only I can do for the team, you know. 17:13.937 --> 17:15.400 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, one little 17:15.532 --> 17:27.390 [SPEAKER_03]: little thing that you touched on, which I think is an important note is, if I, if Jamie takes something off my plate, there's a decent chance that she's going to do it a little bit different than the way I would do it. 17:28.031 --> 17:32.638 [SPEAKER_03]: And there's a decent chance that in my heart and soul and ego, I think my way is better. 17:32.898 --> 17:33.900 [SPEAKER_03]: There's a decent chance of that. 17:34.601 --> 17:41.792 [SPEAKER_03]: And being able to go, being able to, you know, if just to shrug your shoulders and go, yeah, that 17:42.160 --> 17:42.701 [SPEAKER_03]: It's close. 17:43.222 --> 17:43.704 [SPEAKER_03]: It'll get done. 17:44.505 --> 17:51.562 [SPEAKER_03]: That is a skill set in its own right, as opposed to saying, wait a second, you're not doing it the way I would do it. 17:51.582 --> 17:53.346 [SPEAKER_03]: And I think the way that I would do it is better. 17:53.767 --> 17:55.090 [SPEAKER_03]: People get so caught up in that. 17:55.411 --> 17:56.473 [SPEAKER_03]: And I... 17:56.572 --> 18:13.069 [SPEAKER_03]: You're giving me the look like right now, Jamie, like you, you know, I'm telling the truth, like I do not like that'll work that'll be that'll that'll that'll get the job done that'll work and that's that's how I am and that saves me so much headache and heartache by going I literally don't think about it again. 18:13.430 --> 18:21.178 [SPEAKER_03]: Hey, are we going to you know, Is the master are we going to have the book show up on the 19th or the 20th to get signed? 18:21.158 --> 18:22.120 [SPEAKER_00]: You've never asked that. 18:22.140 --> 18:22.921 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, exactly. 18:23.042 --> 18:24.585 [SPEAKER_03]: And I, yeah, exactly. 18:24.605 --> 18:27.891 [SPEAKER_03]: And it's like, I would probably, you know me well enough. 18:28.152 --> 18:30.797 [SPEAKER_03]: Everybody knows me well enough that I would say early, right? 18:30.857 --> 18:32.039 [SPEAKER_03]: I'd say, get him there on the 19th. 18:32.761 --> 18:34.965 [SPEAKER_03]: But I wouldn't, 18:35.063 --> 18:36.266 [SPEAKER_03]: lose any sleep over it. 18:36.787 --> 18:46.708 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm always going to lean towards doing things early and getting things done, but unless it's going to be a catastrophic failure, I'm going to go, I don't work. 18:46.929 --> 18:47.390 [SPEAKER_03]: We'll get it done. 18:47.690 --> 18:51.419 [SPEAKER_03]: Worst case scenario will be up a little late that night getting the book signed, but no big deal will deal with it. 18:51.439 --> 18:53.663 [SPEAKER_03]: It's not going to be catastrophic. 18:53.683 --> 18:54.405 [SPEAKER_03]: So, 18:55.145 --> 19:03.963 [SPEAKER_03]: Practicing the skill of not sweating, whether something is done a certain specific way, is a very powerful skill. 19:04.404 --> 19:10.015 [SPEAKER_03]: And it also gives you the ability to recognize that there are moments in time. 19:10.231 --> 19:17.439 [SPEAKER_03]: where you actually do need to dictate a specific thing because it is going to matter. 19:18.140 --> 19:22.364 [SPEAKER_03]: 90%, 95%, 97% of things don't really matter. 19:22.945 --> 19:28.651 [SPEAKER_03]: And if everything matters to you and you exhibit that to the team, then this matter's like, wait, what do we mean? 19:28.671 --> 19:29.432 [SPEAKER_03]: We gotta get to books here. 19:29.632 --> 19:30.573 [SPEAKER_03]: I want this lighting system. 19:30.693 --> 19:32.215 [SPEAKER_03]: I want this, the slides done like this. 19:32.235 --> 19:32.956 [SPEAKER_03]: I want this file used. 19:32.976 --> 19:35.158 [SPEAKER_03]: If I'm freaking out about everything, 19:35.392 --> 19:38.875 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, then I'm gonna miss some things that are actually important. 19:39.235 --> 19:49.184 [SPEAKER_03]: So, learning what matters and what doesn't matter and then learning to shrug your shoulders and say, yeah, go ahead, it'll get done is a very important skill set. 19:49.444 --> 19:55.369 [SPEAKER_03]: When it comes to decentralized command and last thing on this, there is risk. 19:55.389 --> 19:57.331 [SPEAKER_03]: There is risk with decentralized command. 19:57.691 --> 20:02.115 [SPEAKER_03]: There are gonna be times where Jamie, I've known you for how long, 10 years, 12 years? 20:02.675 --> 20:04.757 [SPEAKER_03]: I've known you for 12 years. 20:04.906 --> 20:14.090 [SPEAKER_03]: And I can probably get 99% of the time, if they gave me a test on what Jamie's gonna do, I'd probably be right, 99% of the time. 20:14.771 --> 20:18.561 [SPEAKER_03]: Guess what, they're still risk, and occasionally, I'll go, huh. 20:18.727 --> 20:20.850 [SPEAKER_03]: That is not going to be good right now. 20:20.930 --> 20:21.551 [SPEAKER_03]: We need to fix it. 20:21.611 --> 20:22.472 [SPEAKER_03]: Occasionally that happens. 20:22.492 --> 20:25.235 [SPEAKER_03]: It probably happens to us right now once every two years. 20:25.656 --> 20:28.759 [SPEAKER_03]: Where I go, okay, we need to do a little adjustment here. 20:29.300 --> 20:41.275 [SPEAKER_03]: So there is risk with decentralized command and you need to understand that and you need to recognize that the small amount of risk that occasionally something might not be perfectly the way you want it. 20:41.255 --> 20:58.958 [SPEAKER_03]: is so made up for by the amount of times that you get to carry on and focus on something else and adjusts bigger pictures strategic things and be present in what is happening in a different area of operations rather than looking behind you and trying to check on what's going on. 20:59.399 --> 21:07.650 [SPEAKER_03]: So there is always risk with decentralized command, but the return on investment is exponential and that's why you have to utilize it. 21:08.153 --> 21:25.505 [SPEAKER_00]: The benefits far outweigh the risk because I can tell you from someone on the front lines as the again, the benefactor of you giving up some of that control, saying, hey, I don't like doing this, is that what it allowed me to do is to step into an area and provide cover as we would call it and a value. 21:25.726 --> 21:29.132 [SPEAKER_00]: It gave me value of what I'm doing matters for the organizations. 21:29.112 --> 21:36.346 [SPEAKER_00]: When you give up control of these things and you implement decentralized command at a high rate, you show your people you value their input. 21:36.627 --> 21:48.370 [SPEAKER_00]: And you actually give them something to focus on and a way to contribute to the mission, which is what most people want, far and above the financial benefits of having a job, what people want is autonomy and the ability to add value. 21:48.788 --> 21:55.534 [SPEAKER_01]: And to Jaco's point too, the times when you do have to step in, you can see, you can actually see it because you're detached. 21:55.914 --> 22:18.795 [SPEAKER_01]: So if you're handling a problem, and you're down the weeds, actually getting that problem solved, it's much easier for me to sit back and say, like, oh, Jamie needs more resources here, or hey, we forgot about this thing, or hey, there's a safety component here that maybe people aren't thinking about, I probably need to step in there and make sure, hey, we can't do that, that's a red line, that's something that could jeopardize our people. 22:18.775 --> 22:30.375 [SPEAKER_01]: the good of the team and the mission in mind and I can see that so much better if I'm not down in the details because I've delegated things and let people lead with decent rise command. 22:31.137 --> 22:41.475 [SPEAKER_03]: And perhaps the most powerful thing about decentralized command happens to be a byproduct of decentralized command. 22:42.653 --> 22:44.836 [SPEAKER_03]: And it's one of the things that makes it so important. 22:44.856 --> 22:53.528 [SPEAKER_03]: And it's even more important than the idea that you're going to be able to lead better and that you're going to be able to maneuver quicker and that you're going to be able to focus on the right things. 22:53.668 --> 22:56.171 [SPEAKER_03]: What is so incredibly powerful about decentralized command? 22:56.672 --> 23:01.718 [SPEAKER_03]: It is that it is an incubator for relationships. 23:02.560 --> 23:11.091 [SPEAKER_03]: Because in order for decentralized command to work, I have to give trust to my people. 23:11.071 --> 23:15.982 [SPEAKER_03]: In order for decentralized command to work, I have to listen to my people. 23:16.183 --> 23:20.453 [SPEAKER_03]: In order for decentralized command to work, I have to respect them and their opinions. 23:20.833 --> 23:26.346 [SPEAKER_03]: In order for decentralized command to work, I have to be influenced by the people on my team. 23:26.326 --> 23:34.500 [SPEAKER_03]: and so the components of a relationship are inherently necessary inside decentralized command. 23:35.000 --> 23:40.670 [SPEAKER_03]: So when you utilize decentralized command, you are building relationships with the people on your team. 23:40.930 --> 23:46.900 [SPEAKER_03]: Now, obviously, if I am a micro-managing centralized command control freak, 23:46.880 --> 23:49.427 [SPEAKER_03]: And I won't listen to what you have to say. 23:49.447 --> 23:51.111 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't allow you to influence me. 23:51.593 --> 23:52.716 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't put any trust in you. 23:52.756 --> 23:53.979 [SPEAKER_03]: I want you to do it my way the highway. 23:54.220 --> 23:58.090 [SPEAKER_03]: Clearly, that is our relationship is diverging. 23:58.130 --> 23:59.073 [SPEAKER_03]: It's getting worse. 23:59.815 --> 24:02.121 [SPEAKER_03]: So, centralized command. 24:02.101 --> 24:20.498 [SPEAKER_03]: micro-management hurts relationships and decentralized command and a laws-a-fair type relationship will build relationships across the board and that is the best buy product of decentralized command and it's one of the things that makes it so critical in any team. 24:21.997 --> 24:24.621 [SPEAKER_00]: Which brings us to our immediate action drill for the week. 24:24.641 --> 24:25.602 [SPEAKER_00]: And this is twofold. 24:26.063 --> 24:34.735 [SPEAKER_00]: If you're in a traditional leadership position, what I want you to do this week is I want you to look for an opportunity to empower someone on your team to step up and make a decision at their level. 24:35.196 --> 24:46.873 [SPEAKER_00]: And if you're in a subordinate role, the best thing you can do is identify one thing, your boss, normally handles, and go to them with a solution, not the problem, but a solution, a way that you can take that off their plate. 24:46.853 --> 24:57.730 [SPEAKER_01]: And if you're in a leadership position and people are coming to you and asking you what to do to solve their problems, you need to ask them what they think they should do and it power them to step up a lead. 24:57.750 --> 25:02.237 [SPEAKER_01]: And so if you're going to your boss or up the chain of command and saying, Hey, what should we do? 25:02.818 --> 25:11.952 [SPEAKER_01]: Come up with a solution that you think might be adequate that you can offer up the chain of command as a potential solution to get approved to get that problem solved. 25:11.972 --> 25:13.975 [SPEAKER_01]: That's the power of decentralized command. 25:14.039 --> 25:21.096 [SPEAKER_01]: And if you do those things, you will empower your team to lead at every level, and that is a team that can lead and win.