[SPEAKER_04]: This episode was proudly brought to you by Bee Parent's surrogacy, head to beeparentsurrogacy.com to learn more.
[SPEAKER_00]: So pick the egg donor, got the fertilization done, and then the fertility clinic, transdust and goes, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: So who's your surrogacy agency?
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you have your surrogate ready?
[SPEAKER_00]: And we look at each other, well, like, who now?
[SPEAKER_00]: You mean you don't, you mean you don't provide with?
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm, we're supposed to bring our own.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're like, yeah, we're an idea of clinic.
[SPEAKER_00]: We were just so surprised.
[SPEAKER_00]: We were like, but you had the egg donor.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're like, yeah, but that's different.
[SPEAKER_03]: Welcome, welcome, welcome me all to the Clear Family Podcast, the show all about family, but with gay.
[SPEAKER_03]: I am your gay host, Jamie, and this is the show as you know.
[SPEAKER_03]: That celebrates highlights, uplifts, and normalizes.
[SPEAKER_03]: Legibitiqua, families, and all of our fabulous identities.
[SPEAKER_03]: And this week's guest is no short of fabulousness.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'll tell you that much.
[SPEAKER_03]: Today's conversation was with attorney, Alexander Peking, and we talk about surrogacy and the legal side of queer family building.
[SPEAKER_03]: And what intended parents really need to know before starting the process.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a really important conversation and I think you're really going to enjoy it and I'm really excited to roll the tape up before I do a couple of things on the home front that I want to tell y'all about.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if you're watching the video, but you should be, you should be watching the video and if you are, you'll see I got
[SPEAKER_03]: new shelving for my awards that we're taking up too much space in my little tiny shows that I had.
[SPEAKER_03]: So now I have big shows to display all of the night.
[SPEAKER_03]: You can see them all 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9.
[SPEAKER_03]: There are nine awards on those shows.
[SPEAKER_03]: What?
[SPEAKER_03]: Plus a story from Go Magazine on top that you can't see because it's way up there.
[SPEAKER_03]: But anyway, I got new shelving to display my awards because what else he's supposed to do with awards?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like if anybody has any other ideas, like an art project or something, I don't know what to do with them.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's awesome that I have them and I have to remind myself to be grateful that this little show and that y'all keep tuning in and this show keeps going on and on.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it was a great
[SPEAKER_03]: plan and it keeps going.
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, but I don't know what to do with these awards this point.
[SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, except put them in the back of my video, which my wife is like, Oh, yay, more shelves for your awards and our bedrooms in our bedroom, any who.
[SPEAKER_03]: On another front, I told y'all about the the fish that my son won in a add-of-fair.
[SPEAKER_03]: He won two gold fish.
[SPEAKER_03]: He was very excited.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's won't been wanting fish forever.
[SPEAKER_03]: He won them this summer.
[SPEAKER_03]: And of course, they were boys, which is an idea I got from my previous co-host just to tell him their boys, because he's been dying for another boy in the house, because it's such a female heavy house, even the dog is a girl.
[SPEAKER_03]: So he had his two boy fish and
[SPEAKER_03]: They became my project.
[SPEAKER_03]: I love the fish.
[SPEAKER_03]: I love the fish and I kept hearing from people that goldfish need big tanks, big tanks, and we only had a 10 gallon tank, so we this past weekend decided to upgrade them to a 20 gallon tank to give them the best life possible, because that's how much I love these fish.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I did all the things you're supposed to do.
[SPEAKER_03]: I cycled the water.
[SPEAKER_03]: I conditioned the water.
[SPEAKER_03]: I set it up beautifully.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was so gorgeous the tank.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we put them in
[SPEAKER_03]: I cannot even explain to you the devastation on my part.
[SPEAKER_03]: I, I think I mourned.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was so upset that that morning and my poor son, of course, cried and cried and cried and cried.
[SPEAKER_03]: I, yeah, I, but I do feel like losing these little fish brought back every single death I've experienced in my life and just made me
[SPEAKER_03]: really sad for a little bit of time.
[SPEAKER_03]: So if any of you have lost a pet in recent days, my heart goes out to you, oh my goodness.
[SPEAKER_03]: So now we have this big empty tank and no fish in it.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we now he's excited because we're going to go to the pet store on Friday before the weekend and see we can get some some different fish, some new fish.
[SPEAKER_03]: So
[SPEAKER_03]: They will not be replaced by corner in birch and though.
[SPEAKER_03]: Corner in birch and can never be replaced.
[SPEAKER_03]: We will love them forever and they will always remain in our hearts.
[SPEAKER_03]: And of course, Orion, my son wants to have a burial.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we have to figure out how we're going to do that.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we do have the fish and they are in the freezer.
[SPEAKER_03]: Y'all, they are in the freezer.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh my God, the joy of parenting.
[SPEAKER_03]: He had and I'm still so sad about these damn fish.
[SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, okay, sending all the love out to y'all and hope everybody's staying healthy and well and these trying times and I'm here for you and I love you all and thanks for tuning in again.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, let's roll the tape with Alex because it's green episode and you're gonna get some wonderful knowledge from his legal advice.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, Helen Bulla, stop staring at the empty fish tank ladies.
[SPEAKER_03]: Come over here, please and roll this tape.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you so much.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right,
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm so happy to have you here.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm so happy that we're going to chat about, and I think it's time without further ado.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to put you on the spot, Alex, and I'd love to hear your 30 second elevator pitch, and I'm sure the folks at home are in their cars or on their runs would love to hear it as well.
[SPEAKER_03]: So are you ready?
[SPEAKER_03]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: I am Alexander Paykin of Paykin Law.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm a real estate and commercial litigator and complex transactions attorney here in New York.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been married to my husband since 2009.
[SPEAKER_00]: In fact, tomorrow is our 17th anniversary.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we have a four and a half year old.
[SPEAKER_00]: His name is Zach.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then about two weeks of all goes well, we should be having our second one.
[SPEAKER_00]: His name will be Anthony.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I've had both through surrogacy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Here we are.
[SPEAKER_00]: Have a fun life in New York.
[SPEAKER_03]: Boom, boom, you had to stretch it out to make it to 30 seconds.
[SPEAKER_03]: Nicely done, Alex.
[SPEAKER_03]: Happy anniversary.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hi, thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's very exciting.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a Valentine's Day, Anniversary.
[SPEAKER_03]: You're married on Valentine's Day.
[SPEAKER_00]: We were back when New York still didn't allow it, but it was right at that moment when we had our temporary governor.
[SPEAKER_00]: We had Dough Patterson as governor for a little while, and what happened was he didn't have the authority to recognize or create the legal status for gay marriage in New York.
[SPEAKER_00]: But as governor, what he had authority under the State Constitution was to recognize out of state papers.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what that meant was, suddenly, while my husband and I couldn't get married here, if we went to Connecticut, which is what we did, got married there, come back to New York, and that marriage certificate is now perfectly valid.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, of course, as soon as that happened within a couple of months, the legislature got the point, and they basically were lobbied by all the businesses who said, well, we're missing out on selling flowers and venues and whatnot.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're all going to Connecticut.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then gay marriage became legal in New York.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yep, I remember it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, we got married the year.
[SPEAKER_03]: It became legal.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's a good point.
[SPEAKER_03]: You can wait and we have many friends who like did it in Massachusetts and Connecticut.
[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, this is this is like par for the course with the Ligipita Kwa coupling.
[SPEAKER_03]: Hopefully we get to keep keep marriage.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's let's hope with this regime that's trying to take everything away.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think we're safe in New York, but at least as far as that goes, but you saw that they took the pride flag down its wall, what a ridiculous stupid move.
[SPEAKER_00]: If they who are they trying to appeal to all the highly conservative right wing Republicans living in the British village right?
[SPEAKER_02]: I know totally.
[SPEAKER_03]: I hear you.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's such bullshit and stupid and it's back up.
[SPEAKER_03]: They just put it back up.
[SPEAKER_03]: So
[SPEAKER_03]: I think I know where this episode is going to take us.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're going to get into legal stuff quite often and I'm glad I'm glad to have a lawyer to speak with who happens to be a member of the community and who has built a family the gateway as I like to say.
[SPEAKER_03]: So can we kind of walk through your journey to parenthood a little.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'd love to hear about your surrogacy journey and just so as you know, Alex.
[SPEAKER_03]: I go deep into all the things so we're going to dive deep into all the decisions you had to make because as you know there's a lot of decisions to make when it comes to queer family building.
[SPEAKER_03]: So let's hear about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: certainly was a journey and continues to be a lot of things we learned the first time around where we were able to prepare ourselves better for the second time, although honestly the second time has been almost as complicated.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I always pushed for having kids ever since we got married.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was ready, my husband took a little convincing, took us a few years before we got in the same
[SPEAKER_03]: You always knew you wanted to do it and was service the always your chosen path or like what what what we your thoughts surrounding how you because we have to make a decision how we're going to do it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I always wanted kids period before I was married.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I don't know always hard to remember what you want to as a kid, but as an adult, I've always wanted children.
[SPEAKER_00]: Can't say that I was 100% committed to service.
[SPEAKER_00]: I like the idea of biological children.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, that has its advantage over adoption to some degree.
[SPEAKER_00]: But at the same time, I was willing to adopt, I was willing to adopt an older child.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was willing to go with any number of combinations.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've worked with kids for a couple of decades at least.
[SPEAKER_00]: I used to be the interact.
[SPEAKER_00]: Rotarian advisor and high school.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been a mock trial coach at a different high school.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've worked with Rylea, which is the rotary youth leadership awards.
[SPEAKER_00]: Done a lot of different projects that involved kids.
[SPEAKER_00]: Used to be the president of the Board of Safe Schools, a nonprofit here in New York.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I've always known I wanted kids and I honestly always felt like I'd have an easier time with kids that were older, where you could basically poke reason with them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Langer experiences with more and more teenagers proved me wrong.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's going to say, I'm not so sure, but I like the thinking.
[SPEAKER_00]: But you know what?
[SPEAKER_00]: My four and a half year old can be so much more stubborn than any adult.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: I hear you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I lose more arguments with him than I lose with opposing counsels and court by any measure.
[SPEAKER_03]: I can't win with my eight-year-old.
[SPEAKER_03]: My eight-year-old knows everything, and he's always wrong, but he'll never admit it, and he'll never realize he's wrong.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: I hear you.
[SPEAKER_03]: But on the other hand, my 12-year-old,
[SPEAKER_03]: just can't stand to hear me speak.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'll say, I'll just go in, I should come home from school, I'll go in the room.
[SPEAKER_03]: Rose, do you have homework?
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh my God, Mom, what?
[SPEAKER_03]: I just asked a question, like, I'm just, hey, like it's like, wow, wow, these children.
[SPEAKER_00]: I heard a great show, Grace, William.
[SPEAKER_00]: He was asked, how do your kids treat you?
[SPEAKER_00]: He said, like, God.
[SPEAKER_00]: the person in one way.
[SPEAKER_00]: He said, well, they never listen to everything, anything I say.
[SPEAKER_00]: They ignore all of my rules.
[SPEAKER_00]: They practically pretend they don't exist, but the moment something goes wrong.
[SPEAKER_00]: Who do they come crying to?
[SPEAKER_03]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's what it is.
[SPEAKER_03]: Do you have homework, Rose?
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh my god.
[SPEAKER_03]: Rose, do you want something to eat?
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh my god, mom.
[SPEAKER_03]: Where are you?
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, like, okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'll come back later.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm in that stage of what do you want for breakfast?
[SPEAKER_00]: A bagel.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, here's a bagel of cream cheese.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not what I want.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want cereal.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, here's cereal.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I want a sausage.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then out of food waste that I've a daily basis is just staggering.
[SPEAKER_00]: But that's the choice of four year olds.
[SPEAKER_03]: like it just changes slightly like it stays the same like my eight year old this more and we're gonna get back to your story but this is fun for me it's riffing about our kids who treat us like crap my eight year old this morning you just reminded me uh he he's been asking me to have a bacon egg and cheese sandwich which he's never wanted before but now is friend loves him so he's like mom I mean so I made him one I was like here you go you got bacon egg and cheese so excited so he's eating it he's eating he was you know what mom
[SPEAKER_03]: Just so as you know, he's never had one mind you.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's never had one.
[SPEAKER_03]: He goes, Mom, the egg is supposed to be scrambled, not like this.
[SPEAKER_03]: What do you mean?
[SPEAKER_03]: No, Mom, it comes with scrambled eggs.
[SPEAKER_03]: Don't you know, wow, actually know, but okay, note taken, kiddo, like these children.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's never even had one.
[SPEAKER_03]: Have you know, you don't know how they're made.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, my kid declared to me that he was a better skier than me after about 15 minutes on a slope.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was planning to spend the weekend teaching him.
[SPEAKER_00]: He said no, I'll teach you.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_00]: He said as he fell over.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, but he fell down the best anybody ever had.
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then my son would get up and be like, I'm really good at that, okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[SPEAKER_00]: But you know what, at least in that age, they get up and try again.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, they haven't been defeated by society at the, the kid kept going.
[SPEAKER_00]: When I tried to teach my husband to ski, a lot more effort.
[SPEAKER_00]: When I try, I do a firm outing with my staff to go skiing every winter.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the adults are so much worse at it.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, so much more afraid to try new things.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, we can't break anything.
[SPEAKER_00]: Zach is like, what the whole time?
[SPEAKER_00]: And sure, I'll tumble my way down.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's go.
[SPEAKER_03]: These children, they're made of rubber.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we, and we, and we gripe about them.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we also love them to death.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, don't get a twisted folks out there on the right.
[SPEAKER_03]: But okay, let's get back to your.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, sounds like you kind of have left all, all pathways to parenthood kind of open.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like you weren't like married to.
[SPEAKER_03]: one particular route?
[SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't, but at the same time early on, I pitched an idea and it was the only one my husband liked and quite frankly it was my favorite too so worked out well.
[SPEAKER_00]: I said we should get one egg donor, fertilize half the eggs with my sperm half with his.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that way we can have two kids, one will be biologically mine, one will be biologically his and they'll be biologically related to each other.
[SPEAKER_00]: So basically creates a little family triangle and connects the bloodline so to speak.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yep, that's kind of the ideal world, at least at least they're connected to each other and me.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I hear you, I hear you.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was the only idea he liked.
[SPEAKER_00]: He wasn't really a big fan of adoption.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I figured, OK, that's what we'll pursue.
[SPEAKER_00]: Took a few years before he declared him as ready.
[SPEAKER_00]: But then around 2019, we started the process of looking.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then, like I said, COVID happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we had to do everything remotely.
[SPEAKER_03]: By starting the process of looking, what do you mean?
[SPEAKER_03]: Were you looking for an agency?
[SPEAKER_03]: Or were you looking independently for your own donor?
[SPEAKER_00]: So the first thing that happened is actually we got, and I think I got a marketing email from RMA, a reproductive medical associates of Connecticut.
[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now they're part of a larger hedge fund-type-owned group.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's called the aluminum.
[SPEAKER_05]: And aluminum.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, aluminum utility.
[SPEAKER_00]: But back then, they were more independent practice, and Dr. Lee and Dearest over there.
[SPEAKER_03]: I've been here in multiple times.
[SPEAKER_00]: oh yeah he's great um so he sent like his company sent some kind of an email inviting basically couples who were interested in surrogacy to come for free meeting with him he was basically gonna host a couple of days in Manhattan I think was at the Hilton or the Marriott where he literally rented a room to talk to people and he had the bed dragged out in a dust dragged in or something to that effect we went there and talked to him
[SPEAKER_00]: and discussed the whole process.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was right before COVID started and we got on board with all of it and then he basically, we didn't fully understand the steps of the process at the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have to say we under researched it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we made a horrible mistake from day one, which is what we thought the process was linear.
[SPEAKER_00]: as opposed to in parallel.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we thought first you get an egg donor, you fertilize the eggs, then you start looking for the circuit.
[SPEAKER_03]: right.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we lost the year basically because by the time we got the egg donor, we didn't use a separate agency.
[SPEAKER_00]: We had RMA of Connecticut because they have their own smaller list.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we basically said, you know, why pay another agency money, we can, you know, how many egg donors do we really need to choose from?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because we weren't going to go crazy and start looking for, you know, eye color, height, hair color.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, no.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, nothing, that crazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: We wanted someone who was medically
[SPEAKER_00]: and who basically would share enough background with us.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it was reasonably likely that our kids would end up looking like us, you know?
[SPEAKER_03]: It's really interesting because I have interviewed Dr. Mark and I know that he stresses the importance of like when narrowing it down because we talk, I talk about this search for, I call this the search for the superhuman or lovingly because some of us do get a little kuku kuchu when it comes
[SPEAKER_03]: But Dr. Mark, I know he stresses starting with medical, starting with that.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then like the last thing you should think about is white like what you just said, I color hair color all the things.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's really interesting because you used Dr. Mark.
[SPEAKER_03]: I look I lovingly call him Dr. Mark.
[SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, and so you're one of the few who didn't get Kuku Kuchu.
[SPEAKER_00]: But to some degree we did, but maybe we got lucky, but not to that extent, but my husband was pickier than me, but we were both reasonably picky.
[SPEAKER_00]: And realistically, if you don't use an agency, the selection is rather small.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we had a pool of maybe 20 to pick from, that maybe cycled one or two out per week.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we were almost ready to essentially settle for what neither of us considered an amazing choice for us.
[SPEAKER_00]: When literally Ricky wakes me up, that's my husband's name.
[SPEAKER_00]: He wakes me up at ungodly hour of the morning.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's a small teacher.
[SPEAKER_00]: So he gets up at 4.20 a.m.
[SPEAKER_00]: I could do not.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's my wife.
[SPEAKER_03]: As the kids have gotten older, she's gotten up.
[SPEAKER_03]: She goes in later in later now.
[SPEAKER_03]: So now she actually sleeps till closer to six.
[SPEAKER_03]: But when we first started dating, she got up at 4.30 every morning.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, Ricky also has a long commute because he teaches a long island, but he insists that we keep living in New York City.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, the price, the price you pay for the big apple.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, wakes me up one morning and I was like, I just found her.
[SPEAKER_00]: They posted a new one.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just, I'm blurry, I'm confused of like, what on earth?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I used until we had kids, I was the other way around.
[SPEAKER_00]: I could sit working and drafting legal papers until 2.30 in the morning and then sleep late if I didn't have a court appearance.
[SPEAKER_00]: So being woke at up at 4.30 a.m.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm opening up one eye.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just like, who are you and what do you want from me?
[SPEAKER_00]: What did you find?
[SPEAKER_00]: Then is there any way you could do it quietly?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and he's like I found her that the perfect egg donor.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, okay, I'm awake.
[SPEAKER_00]: Crawl over to the computer.
[SPEAKER_00]: He shows me a profile and he's right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely perfectly aligned with everything we were looking for from health to like ethnicities and backgrounds to just everything about her was exactly perfect.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like family medical history, family psychiatric history, and all of the things that really matter were perfect.
[SPEAKER_03]: And did you have pictures too?
[SPEAKER_03]: Or did you not even be the perfect, you saw pictures too?
[SPEAKER_00]: There were photos, there was a little video from her to you know, why she wanted to be an egg donor.
[SPEAKER_00]: There was a photo of her with her, up front there, so you know, we could see, you know, the overall family aesthetic, so to speak.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she was just perfect in every way.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we tripped over ourselves, clicking, yes, confirm agree, because apparently that's how you get a surrogate these days.
[SPEAKER_00]: You get one online by clicking, you know, by adding her to shopping card kind of thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: the egg donor gene.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, so pick the egg donor, got the fertilization done, and then the fertility clinic, transdust and goes okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: So who's your surrogacy agency?
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you have your surrogate ready?
[SPEAKER_00]: And we look at each other, well like who now?
[SPEAKER_00]: You mean you don't, you mean you don't
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're like, yeah, we're an IVF clinic.
[SPEAKER_00]: We were just so surprised.
[SPEAKER_00]: We were like, but you had the egg donor.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're like, yeah, but that's different.
[SPEAKER_03]: They didn't take the time to tell you that you should probably start looking for your surrogate.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's entirely possible that at some point they did, but we didn't notice.
[SPEAKER_00]: Didn't, you know, there wasn't enough of a bold font explanation mark, you know, did not register.
[SPEAKER_03]: I hear you like, when we were trying, when my wife was trying to get pregnant, we were doing IUIs.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is kind of adjacent.
[SPEAKER_03]: They weren't working.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so one day, like in the room, while she's at her legs are in the stirrup, the doctor's like, you know what?
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's switch.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's just switch to IVF and up till then, insurance had been covering the IUIs.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we just assumed insurance would cover the IVF.
[SPEAKER_03]: So then then we went and to get the IVF to get the retrieval done, first they slid a bill across the desk to us, 15,000 dollar bill.
[SPEAKER_03]: How you get a pay?
[SPEAKER_03]: We were like, I'm sorry, what?
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's like these things, but you're so rose colored and you're just, you're going in so blindly and you don't think to like check all the things when there are so many things to check, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it definitely, I mean, just a number of different things to worry about, suddenly you find the Syracuse and I think you have a Syracuse journey, and you want to those down?
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, sure, who do I write a check to, and I just keep going and going and...
[SPEAKER_00]: then you put money in escrow and suddenly you're worried about, you know, maternity clothes and daycare reimbursement for the survey to, you know, be able to go to doctors' appoints.
[SPEAKER_00]: All perfectly reasonable things, but like once you never thought what, you know, actually be in the list, that to be fair, the surrogacy agency did start preparing us early on with all of that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: and we were very happy with our surrogacy agency.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how much they had to do with this, but our surrogate is amazing.
[SPEAKER_00]: From the first births, we basically, she's like a sister to us.
[SPEAKER_00]: We vacationed together.
[SPEAKER_00]: In fact, the company's future we just had, she was invited to that, brought her kids.
[SPEAKER_00]: In fact, she and I almost opened up a surrogacy agency of our own.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because, yeah, I'm expanding my practice in ten-food surrogacy law, so the surrogacy attorney part is covered.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she, it was unlike me, she researched every imaginable thing about surrogacy.
[SPEAKER_00]: She went on all the forums, talked to like everybody who's ever been a surrogate or was thinking about it, talked to all the IPs and tended parents.
[SPEAKER_00]: Basically, once we met her,
[SPEAKER_00]: Our surrogacy process was basically just ashe wheel tells what to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: In every way whatsoever, I mean, she knew what the doctors needed to know, she knew, what forms needed to be filled out, she knew everything about the process, well ahead of us.
[SPEAKER_00]: She researched what her insurance carrier would cover, and she had excellent insurance through the state of New Jersey that covers
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely, everything.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I thought my husband had a good chance policy as a school teacher in New York as far as Hilton Shards goes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow, hers is so much better.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, amazingly better.
[SPEAKER_00]: In the hospital that she delivered at, I mean, that's where he's, uh, I have to shout out to where he's medical centers in the middle of nowhere near Jersey about 20 minutes outside of Philadelphia.
[SPEAKER_00]: Probably one of the most amazing hospitals I've ever seen from thousands to gorgeous lobbies to room service in the hospital rooms and you're right in your bed, you get a menu that is honestly five-star restaurant quality.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow!
[SPEAKER_00]: They gave my husband and me our own room once our kid was born and we stayed there with our kid.
[SPEAKER_00]: He was rolled over to Ashley for breastfeeding and whatnot, but other than that, we had our own room, we had room service, our health insurance covered everything from after Zach was born, hers everything from before.
[SPEAKER_04]: Will be right back.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you so much, guys.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, listening to this conversation y'all with Alex today makes one thing very, very clear.
[SPEAKER_03]: Building a family through surrogacy or IVF or all of the ways we do involves a lot of moving parts.
[SPEAKER_03]: We got medical, we got legal, we got emotional.
[SPEAKER_03]: It is a lot to navigate, and that is why I am grateful to have be parents surrogacy supporting this episode.
[SPEAKER_03]: Their team helps intended parents manage the entire process in one place, from matching with the surrogate to coordinating medical care and guiding you through the legal steps along the way, which is super, super important.
[SPEAKER_03]: Their programs follow top international medical standards with accredited clinics and on-site NICU care, and their experience team works closely with intended parents every step of the journey, which is really super important.
[SPEAKER_03]: If surrogacy or IVF might be your path to parenthood, you can learn more a schedule of free consultation at bparentserviceet.com because not to get cheesy here, but to be a parent is a love story with no ending.
[SPEAKER_03]: So head to bparentserviceet.com and learn more.
[SPEAKER_03]: Ooh, and if you mentioned the queer family podcast when you reach out, you will get $2,000 off any service ebook.
[SPEAKER_03]: Go make those babies y'all and then come tell me about them.
[SPEAKER_03]: Love is love.
[SPEAKER_03]: I've spoken to many folks who have gone the surrogacy path and I I feel like they're always talking to me about how they had to put the surrogate on their insurance and they weren't allowed to go to I'm not sure and actually I might be wrong here, but that sounds.
[SPEAKER_03]: like really extraordinary.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's where you sometimes get really lucky if your surrogate happens to be a state employee, whether they're a school teacher or you know, working at any government job, state insurance is honestly some of the best insurance there is.
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, the New York one's pretty good.
[SPEAKER_00]: And ironically, our story is good this time around.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's also school teacher.
[SPEAKER_00]: But she teaches up private school, so that's different.
[SPEAKER_00]: But anyway, Ashley became our, I ended up calling her tech support, because then after Zach was born for the first two years, anything that happened, you know, why is this poop the wrong color?
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's call Ashley, she'll explain.
[SPEAKER_03]: She's a mom too.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and she's been, she was amazing through all of it and the surrogacy agency that we used, the owner, it was an attorney herself and she was planning to retire.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's why I said Ashley and I came this close to buying her agency and just taking over.
[SPEAKER_00]: with Ashley basically being the, you know, the hand-holding person that does all of the matching and all of the intended parent and surrogate relations, and I would have been dealing with all of the legal and bureaucratic bits.
[SPEAKER_03]: Sounds like we all need it and Ashley in our lives.
[SPEAKER_00]: but she and I actually still keep talking about the potential that maybe we'll start a surrogacy agency soon because we have all the groundwork done and having gone through the process ourselves.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean what better owners for a surrogacy agency than a surrogate and a parent who got the child through surrogacy and in fact from that surrogate.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, here you, and it sounds like this hospital, this wasn't their first rodeo with gay parents or surrogate.
[SPEAKER_00]: Surprisingly, middle of nowhere south New Jersey, extremely liberal and very easy to work with.
[SPEAKER_00]: In fact, our surrogate right now is in Boston, and you'd think Massachusetts, liberal, Boston, super liberal, we'd have a super easy time with the whole process.
[SPEAKER_00]: In middle and lower New Jersey, the parent's order came through in a week.
[SPEAKER_00]: I stopped by the county clerk's office a week after our journey submitted the forms and I was able to pick it up.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was super easy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Boston, the bureaucracy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my God.
[SPEAKER_00]: It took our parent to shorter probably four months.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow and in fact, we literally just got our parent to Jordan three days ago four days ago and he's coming in a couple weeks.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and this point I was literally terrified.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was planning to fly out to Boston drive over to the courthouse.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, a quarter of clerk and basically say, look, my kids about to be born, I need an order declaring that I'm the parent.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is not acceptable.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like how do you guys do this?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because it's scary.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, what happened is Massachusetts just recently passed a new shiny surrogacy statute.
[SPEAKER_00]: Modeled after the new shiny surrogacy statute in New York to a large degree, which we recently just passed.
[SPEAKER_00]: So on the one hand, that's wonderful.
[SPEAKER_00]: And going forward, there's a simple straight forward process to do it.
[SPEAKER_00]: But as always, just like with getting married, Ricky and I decided to jump the gun on legislation.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we had our surrogacy agreement done before Massachusetts passed the statute.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was legal in Massachusetts before, but they didn't have a standardized statute.
[SPEAKER_00]: So under the new standardized statute, there were crimes called strict compliance.
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's certain language that has to be in the surrogacy agreement for the court to process it and recognize it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And our circus agreement was done before that statute came through by an attorney who is not a Massachusetts attorney.
[SPEAKER_00]: So she used her template from, um, I don't know, Maryland, Delaware, whatever somewhere else.
[SPEAKER_00]: And at the time, Massachusetts was perfectly fine accepting anything, so long as it covered all of the important elements.
[SPEAKER_00]: you know that the parties basically agree who the kid is and so on.
[SPEAKER_00]: Unfortunately, now that Massachusetts passed the statute when you submit something that was drafted before the statute, it goes into a thorough review process to make sure that it's essentially up to their standards.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it requires what's called substantial compliance.
[SPEAKER_00]: And substantial compliance, unlike strict compliance, essentially requires human judgment.
[SPEAKER_00]: Strict compliance is easy for the clerk.
[SPEAKER_00]: If the sentence says, as of this date and this time, the parties agree, blah, blah, blah, the clerk can look and say, OK, that's the statutory language check box moving on.
[SPEAKER_00]: but if the language is a little different the clerk has to give it to the judge and the judge has to manually apply not it and now you're in the bureaucracy of doom and add insult to injury the county and question just changed it's fairly
[SPEAKER_00]: will record judge that handled service and so we got a new judge and a new clerk and a new statute and the judging question hasn't really done family law before because the way on legal system works is judges get psyched regardless of their background and experience so you can get appointed to be a criminal law judge and then reassigned to family law and then get reassigned to foreclosures.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I mean it away, they're a judge, they'll figure it out in time, it's still law, but we basically got dropped into the transition period with the documents that needed a lot of complex review.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, it's a good thing you got started so soon, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And can you imagine if you have put this off to like the month before God, it's a good thing that you were proactive.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank God for actually.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, the first time around, it was so easy that we imagine that why would, why would Massachusetts take any longer than New Jersey?
[SPEAKER_00]: So our expectation was a week or two.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we filed four months in advance and learned that sometimes you have to take your expectations
[SPEAKER_03]: all the red tape, all the red tape we go through for stupid stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: But question for you, from a lawyer's perspective, it's fun to have a lawyer here.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now, do you have to do second-parent adoption as well?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, you've got the parentage order and what are your, what's your take on second-parent adoption and all the things?
[SPEAKER_03]: I always advise everybody to get second-parent adoption, but I'd love to hear what you have to say as a lawyer.
[SPEAKER_00]: Second parent adoption would have been the course we would have had to take if we didn't get the parent to Jordan on time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because the parent to Jordan is what directs the hospital whose names to write on the birth certificate.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now once your name is on the birth certificate, that's it.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can't really, the second parent adoption doesn't really do anything.
[SPEAKER_03]: But the birth certificate does not delineate parentage.
[SPEAKER_03]: It just delineates identification.
[SPEAKER_03]: So what I have been told by lawyers, especially in our situations where we didn't have a parent to daughter because we're using, we don't have surgery.
[SPEAKER_03]: So the baby comes from one of our bodies, like two moms.
[SPEAKER_03]: I've been told that you should get the second parent adoption just because the birth certificate does not delineate parentage.
[SPEAKER_00]: With the one of you who gives birth,
[SPEAKER_00]: the baby comes from your body.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the mother.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's going to be the person listed on the birth certificate absent a parentage order.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the second one of you to be listed on the birth certificate requires an order of the court.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know that's why we have to get the second parent adoption is what it is.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm saying the second parent adoption is a thing only if you don't get a parent to Jordan.
[SPEAKER_00]: But parent to Jordaners are for surrogacies.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I mean parent to Jordaners have been around for a while, but for surrogacy, they're fairly new.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the idea is normally, if we didn't have a parent to Jordan, if let's say the child being born is biologically Ricky's, that would mean Ricky would get listed as the father.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the surrogate would get listed as the mother, and that's the absolutely wrong thing, because she's not biologically related to the child, and that's not what the parties want.
[SPEAKER_00]: So in the traditional way, I would have to do a second parent adoption, and she would have to waive her rights, and then I would be the adoptive parent.
[SPEAKER_00]: The whole idea of the parentage order is that it directs the county clerk to record as parents and it directs the hospital to issue a birth certificate that records as parents, both Ricky and me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, once they do that, and I have a parentage order, that's literally a court order that says I am the father.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's different than just having your name on the birth certificate.
[SPEAKER_03]: But in order for you to get your name on the birth certificate, you need the parent to Jordan understood what it comes to like two mom families like my wife and I and many others we both do go on that birth certificate.
[SPEAKER_03]: We don't need a parentage order to do that because there is no other.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's no donors named even put on the certificate because it's an anonymous and we've signed a contract and he's that person is that the the parentage is signed away when we signed the contract for the donor.
[SPEAKER_03]: However, we so we both since we're both in the room, we get put on the birth certificate every time, but we have to get that second parent adoption to make it legal to make me the non bioparent be actual.
[SPEAKER_03]: legal parents.
[SPEAKER_00]: That is extremely interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would not have expected that a hospital would list you as the second parent on the press certificate.
[SPEAKER_00]: If they have no reason to believe that you're a biologically related or be the basically a court is ordering them to normally hospitals are just recording medical records so they would record the biological parents.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if this
[SPEAKER_00]: They would just list NA for the second parent.
[SPEAKER_03]: No, because, because once again, the birth certificate does not delineate parentage.
[SPEAKER_03]: The birth certificate delineates identification and the parents who were present when the baby was born was me and my wife and so they allow you to put your name down.
[SPEAKER_03]: However, to make it legal, to make it legal, it is highly advised to get the second parent adoption for those of us who just get our names on the birth certificate.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not enough.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's interesting because honestly I've never had to deal with this experience in New York particularly, but in other states, I've been told that a hospital will not put the second name down.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, I've spoken with many, many, many couples all over the country who their name gets on the birth certificate and then they do the extra step of doing the second parent adoption after just to make it completely legal.
[SPEAKER_00]: OK, but basically to answer the original question, no, we didn't have to do it because in our case, we went with the parentage order at that time, because that way you have your declarations of parentage before the child's even board, so that in minute one, there's already no issues, us the medical decisions, legal decisions, et cetera.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, perfect.
[SPEAKER_00]: And by the way, there's no reason you couldn't.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's not something that I think a lot of people would think to do in your situation, because probably the child is born and then you go, oh crap, I should also have, you know, legal standing.
[SPEAKER_00]: But in reality, I'm willing to bet that you, well, at least now with the new services statutes and the new parent to Jordan or statutes.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm willing to bet you could have petitioned the family court, even then it's just what have been under equitable principles instead of a specific statute, but you probably rather than doing a second parent adoption could have done a pre-birth order declaring you the parent.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think people do that now, I think it's more readily available.
[SPEAKER_03]: But when we were doing it, that wasn't as far as I knew, that wasn't even an option.
[SPEAKER_03]: And nobody ever brought it up to us.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the second parent adoption seemed to be the only course to take, I could be wrong.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I do know that now there are other options.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I do think more and more people are doing these parent-church orders.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not just two dads, not just those who go surrogacy.
[SPEAKER_03]: But that's something to look into.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, parent-to-jorders are honestly even for couples, you know, for heterosexual couples that, you know, somebody goes out with someone who's already pregnant and they decide to get married, the child's not born yet.
[SPEAKER_00]: You could theoretically apply for the parent-to-jorder if you're going to be the quote father.
[SPEAKER_00]: And as long as everybody's on board and you fill out all the forms correctly and you get your order before the child is born, it all works out.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you don't, then it either has to be a retroactive order, which some courts will issue, or then you have to do the second parent adoption.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's just something for everybody who's listening if you're thinking of starting, you know, one more thing to add to your checklist.
[SPEAKER_03]: Do that research, do the research find out what the laws are in your state and what the options are because it could be a much easier, it could be an easy path as opposed to the most difficult treacherous ones that we often think we have to take.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, I just, uh, on warning for people, since you did mention the laws in your state, you have to worry about a couple of different states sometimes.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're in New York, so if you've got a press certificate and the child born outside of New York state, you have no problem here with them recognizing it.
[SPEAKER_00]: But where is your surrogate located?
[SPEAKER_03]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_03]: If you're doing surrogacy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, and by the way, not just where is the surrogate located, we actually faced that with our, with our current surrogate, where she lives in Boston, but she has family out in the Midwest, and she was saying that she planned on visiting them a few times during the, you know, well, being pregnant.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we suddenly had concerns and so did our lawyer of way to second, how are you getting there?
[SPEAKER_00]: And what states are in between?
[SPEAKER_00]: And what happens if you go into labor or end up hospitalized early and then end up stuck in that hospital until you deliver in one of these other states?
[UNKNOWN]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, if your surrogate goes on vacation in the third trimester, most people might worry, oh, can she be on an airplane?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, my question is, what jurisdiction is she going to be in?
[SPEAKER_00]: And what jurisdictions is she flying over?
[SPEAKER_00]: What if the plane makes an emergency landing because she goes into labor and now you're an Alabama?
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's a lot of why the surrogacy agreement is such a complicated document.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's one of the most complex contracts you will find.
[SPEAKER_03]: Which is why you need legal?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, there's no way of drafting one without a lawyer.
[SPEAKER_00]: The first time I saw one until I started researching them and really got to fully understand them.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was a little overwhelming for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I looked at it and I was like, wow, it's easier to buy a building and Manhattan than it is to agree to a surrogacy process.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's a lot.
[SPEAKER_03]: There are a lot of things to think through.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I know some folks, you know, they use, they find their own surrogates and they kind of, they piecemeal this journey to save money and, you know, more power to you and whatever you need to do, and also just make sure, make sure everything is buttoned up.
[SPEAKER_03]: If anything, hire a lawyer to make sure everything is buttoned up and that you're thinking through every possible scenario, like what you just said, I never even thought about that, but that's some scary things that can happen.
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that, honestly, the number of things and the surrogacy agreement that you start reading and I mean, I'm wanting to end, yes, everybody should read it before signing, but if you
[SPEAKER_00]: Effective thing to scare people away from surrogacy, or from really ironic children, read a surrogacy agreement, because it literally has a clause for every possible thing that could go wrong, and who's responsible at how much it's going to cost, and whose life is about to get ruined and how.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh my god.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, by the time you get to page 25, you're just like these are all the things that could go wrong.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is there anything that could go right here?
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's crazy.
[SPEAKER_03]: The hoops we go through to make this dream of becoming parents true.
[SPEAKER_03]: It really is.
[SPEAKER_03]: We are some of the most intentional parents out there.
[SPEAKER_03]: I say this like every episode, but it's so freaking true.
[SPEAKER_03]: We go through so much to make this dream a reality.
[SPEAKER_03]: And if only
[SPEAKER_03]: people who are ignorant would just listen to some of our stories they would see.
[SPEAKER_03]: Just listen, just listen to what we go through.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's crazy.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, first baby's born, second one is almost here.
[SPEAKER_03]: Life is going well for you all in New York City.
[SPEAKER_00]: doing pretty well of just bought a new apartment that we're going to be remodeling for the next year so we're living in a rental but have have high hopes of course it was supposed to close a year ago and we were supposed to finish the remodeled before Anthony was born but that's not going to happen that's going to be another year or so but yeah, obviously coming to the states living in New York it's all been pretty good awesome where'd you come from?
[SPEAKER_00]: Letting grud in the Soviet Union, now that is in Peter'sburg and Russia.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, not a place with gay rights.
[SPEAKER_03]: No, no, when did you leave?
[SPEAKER_00]: left in 1989, they have back when Ronald Reagan and Gorbachev agreed to open up the floodgates for Russian Jews, got stranded in Italy for almost a year, because, well, that's how the US government works, first they tell you, welcome, welcome immigrants, and then they see if it's you have to fly through a certain point, we picked Italy where you're going to submit all these documents and then wait for a decision.
[SPEAKER_00]: They don't mention that before you, you know, abandon your entire life over there, and suddenly find yourself with no right to work and no money in a foreign country.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my god.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I got stranded there for a while.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's probably where I first realized I wanted to be a lawyer, because for seven months, we were literally stuck there.
[SPEAKER_00]: We were getting denied visas after, again, leaving the Soviet Union and you have to give up Soviet citizenship.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we were
[SPEAKER_00]: people of nowhere.
[SPEAKER_00]: And waiting for the US to give us an immigrant card to get into the country.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this fancy suited lawyer shows up from New York saying how if we'd give them basically whatever money we have left.
[SPEAKER_00]: He will submit papers on our behalf and get stuff done.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know what?
[SPEAKER_00]: He took our money.
[SPEAKER_00]: He kind of disappeared for a while, which at the time was terrifying.
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: But then all of a sudden, a letter from his law office shows up going congratulations.
[SPEAKER_00]: Here's your visas.
[SPEAKER_00]: And here's the charitable organization that's going to loan you money for your affair.
[SPEAKER_00]: Here's your flight.
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, to see one person able to take on the US government and accomplish things for, you know, the really little guy, that was super impressive.
[SPEAKER_00]: So at nine that stuck with me.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we moved to New York, you know, when we got here with us in Queens, then my parents got a house on Long Island, once they were able to afford it.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, we came here with nothing, the English, and now they're both retired, they ended their careers with my mother head of the IT department of an insurance company and my father there had actually and senior vice president.
[SPEAKER_03]: Wow, this is a case for immigration.
[SPEAKER_03]: and the beauty of immigration and letting immigrants in.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Come on.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: Most of the people in my firm were not born in this country.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm trying to think how many were.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to say two out of ten at most.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have a weirdly diverse group here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Lots of LGBT, lots of immigrants.
[SPEAKER_00]: And everybody's got a awesome success story.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's great.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: In the movie, it's only.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, God.
[SPEAKER_03]: You have any advice?
[SPEAKER_03]: Do you have any advice for any as a lawyer and just knowing things?
[SPEAKER_03]: How things are?
[SPEAKER_03]: Do you have any advice for those of us who might be scared right now or worried for the state of things?
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, it was it the state of things is terrifying, but a lot more for the non-US citizens than for the rest of us, you know, my chief financial officer and his boyfriend, as of a few years ago, he lived in St. Petersburg and owned an operated coffee shop.
[SPEAKER_00]: He was a Navalny supporter and an
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that did not work out well for him after multiple arrests and beatings and where basically he didn't think he'd survive the next one.
[SPEAKER_00]: He managed to flee the country through Kazakhstan, then to Turkey with literally just the clothes on his back.
[SPEAKER_00]: From Turkey he made it to Mexico,
[SPEAKER_00]: And in Mexico he was an LGBT shelter in Tijuana and applied for asylum to the US and amazingly managed to get it and so he came from Tijuana and literally walked into this country and then I forget how he managed to get to New York.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think some organization got him a plane ticket.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then he started here with nothing, met his boyfriend, who at the time was my personal assistant, and then that's how he got a job here originally as like just the office bookkeeper type person, but he was excellent with math, and quickly became a head of finance over here, and he went through an incredible journey.
[SPEAKER_00]: And right now, it's terrifying because he doesn't have a screen card yet, and while he has asylum status, his boyfriend meanwhile is from the Ukraine, and yeah, and he's here on temporary status, and yeah, so, you know, for a while there, he didn't even have work authorization, and I find it extremely cruel of this country to give somebody temporary status to be here, but not give them the right to work.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like we're going to, we're going to shield you from going back into a war zone, but you can't earn money, you can't apply for government programs, so just go ahead and start please.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, the two of them have a tough life in that respect, and they've got hopefully a very bright future together, but right now, people in their kind of position where one wrong move and ice comes after you?
[SPEAKER_03]: Living in fear.
[SPEAKER_03]: Are they traveling?
[SPEAKER_03]: Are they traveling
[SPEAKER_00]: The boyfriend from Ukraine, he barely leaves the house at this point, even though he has legal status, he's terrified that if he drives down the street and gets pulled over and gets a speeding ticket, next thing, you know, I still show up, and my CFO, he feels a little bit more comfortable, because he's got, you know, he's already got asylum status, and it's,
[SPEAKER_00]: He used literally waiting for his green card to come through at this point.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's already submitted his green card application.
[SPEAKER_00]: So he's in a safer place.
[SPEAKER_00]: But even that, you know, even green card holders right now are not safe.
[SPEAKER_03]: Great.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh my God.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, it gets sending all the, all the good vibes and, you know, like, look for the helpers.
[SPEAKER_03]: You got fear clearly a helper.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like the helpers are out there.
[SPEAKER_03]: So look for the helpers and all of us need to step up and help, however we can.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so if people of people want to get in contact with you, which, where should they go.
[SPEAKER_00]: easiest way to get in contact with me is, uh, probably to email me at Alexander at PaykinLaw.net, and the easiest way to spell Paykin is Paykin, like you're paying money, and Kin, like you're a relative, PaykinLaw.net, that's the website, that's the firm, they can look at my bio there, and there's also, you know, phone numbers, extensions, and all that, but they can find on there, but really the website, PaykinLaw.net.
[SPEAKER_00]: tells them everything they need to know to find me.
[SPEAKER_03]: But this has been a really great conversation, though.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's been fun.
[SPEAKER_03]: Jolly, back in France.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, thank you so much for coming on the show and telling your story and sharing your wisdom with the listeners.
[SPEAKER_03]: I appreciate it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Of course, it's been a pleasure.
[SPEAKER_03]: A huge thank you to our sponsors of this year episode, be parent, surrogacy.
[SPEAKER_03]: Learn more about them, find the links to their websites in the show notes.
[SPEAKER_03]: Make those babies y'all and then come tell me about them.
[SPEAKER_03]: Whew, well folks, I hope you enjoyed that episode as much as I enjoyed it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And if you did enjoy it, feel free to listen to another or watch another.
[SPEAKER_03]: I have so many episodes for your listening or viewing pleasure.
[SPEAKER_03]: Just go pick one and enjoy.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's a lot, there really is.
[SPEAKER_03]: And also, if you really do like this show, please, I know I say it all the time, but please do consider supporting the show on Patreon.
[SPEAKER_03]: You're just gonna go to patreon.com slash the queer family podcast.
[SPEAKER_03]: You're gonna pick a tear, you're gonna join, and you're gonna get that bonus content.
[SPEAKER_03]: And you're also gonna get my love and adoration for the rest of my life.
[SPEAKER_03]: I love you all, thanks for tuning in, keep on tuning in, and I'll see you next time.