[SPEAKER_02]: What's up, everybody?
[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome to Comic Book Club on Alex.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm Justin.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we've got a special bonus episode for you here with two fantastic guests we're talking to you.
[SPEAKER_02]: To the folks behind the great book from Dark Horse Comics, American Capir, ladies and gentlemen, Lazlo and Shelley Bond.
[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome to the podcast.
[SPEAKER_04]: Hello.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, it's like we're married.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh God.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, it's really fun.
[SPEAKER_04]: The bond of families.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I mean, now I'm going to get in big trouble with my husband and my son and our two kittens.
[SPEAKER_03]: Kids are going to give you trouble.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, no.
[SPEAKER_03]: Don't stay always.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, Shelley and I are both married, but we write around on a private jet funded by the U.S. government.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's going to be a big dream.
[SPEAKER_03]: That was a reference to our previous department of Homeland Security person.
[SPEAKER_01]: I understand that.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's still an interesting way to start a podcast.
[SPEAKER_04]: Go ahead.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's an interesting way to start some Senate testimony as well.
[SPEAKER_03]: I will have to say there's days that I talk to Shelley more than my wife because she has been instrumental throughout this whole process of a couple of guys that have worked in games for a bunch of years stepping into the comic books world, so she guided us and it's, I talked to her a lot a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think it's safe to say a lot and also listen, I have been in the industry for three decades.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm pretty selective about the projects that I pick up as a freelance editor.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he might try to compliment me because he's obviously looking for something.
[SPEAKER_01]: But legit, if I don't see something there, whether it's a tiny crystal or a glimmer,
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to hang around for 18 months, so there was a reason I stuck around with this book, and I think Laslo and Dan have created a pretty fantastic world here.
[SPEAKER_02]: So actually, before we get too far, we should probably establish what American paper is.
[SPEAKER_02]: We've been talking about every issue on our stack podcast.
[SPEAKER_02]: We've really been enjoying the bread, but there are so many wild things that are going on here to start with.
[SPEAKER_02]: you're focusing on two families, two very American families, one that I guess I would describe as hitting hard times.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're not having the smoothest injury possible right now.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then another one that seems to be a prototypical American family, but of course neither of them are either of those things and are all of those things at the same time.
[SPEAKER_02]: But that's just kind of like your starting point, and the first issue of things spit off into wildly violent,
[SPEAKER_02]: nudity filled perfe in very adults only things going on here throughout the issues and I'll also plug before I forget later than American Capre number five is coming out March 18th so more wildness to come but we're we're to this start with I believe this is part of a larger absurdiverse
[SPEAKER_02]: laslow that you guys have going on that you're building out.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we're to the germ of this come from because by the time it's a comic book forum there are so many things it feels like it's just like already the ball is rolling down the hill.
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, well, thanks for the kind words.
[SPEAKER_03]: Firstly, they just to clarify American Capers is its own universe.
[SPEAKER_03]: We have, we have a thing called the Obsertivers, um, which is, we're working on some interesting stories.
[SPEAKER_03]: We like doing animation and games.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, but, and I just,
[SPEAKER_03]: I was just asked by Chris Anderson the other day about including some stuff from that other universe in Varona and our story of American Capers like, no, we don't cross universes.
[SPEAKER_03]: So absurd ventures was started by Dan Houser.
[SPEAKER_03]: and myself and some colleagues that we used to work with at Rockstar Games.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we wanted to create new universes until stories in them.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we've currently got three different universes, a better paradise, the absurdivers, and then American Capre.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we're often asked
[SPEAKER_03]: about American Capers like I was going to be a game set in this you know I love the Wyoming setting and it sort of feels like a cross between GTA and Red Dead and it's like no we're not we're not currently planning a game there might be something in the in the future but you know it all
[SPEAKER_03]: It all began when Dan and I were talking about the things that we love making, obviously we love making games, but in those games we had satirical radio and satirical TV shows and in Red Dead Redemption 2, there were old timey cartoons, you know, that felt like they were 1907 and and so
[SPEAKER_03]: When you're making up a world games, you're very much making media universes.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we've always loved comic books.
[SPEAKER_03]: I've been collecting since I was five and have a sea of white boxes.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know what to frankly do with, but dance from London.
[SPEAKER_03]: And he was into the comic scene over there.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so he's like, I have this idea about it started with the Mormon hitman.
[SPEAKER_03]: He did started with the Mormon hitman and then he started throwing out ideas for other characters.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's one of the things that people have said to me about the comic because I don't know where it's going.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I like it, you know, like you mentioned, you have these two families van crashes full of prisoners on the run as well as some migrants that had escaped from Mexico and then it just turns into this sprawling sort of tale that here don't
[SPEAKER_03]: You don't really know which character, you know, the main characters in the two houses, but there's people in that van that, you know, many issues later, you're following them and seeing how they're tied into the deeper backstory.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I mean, every issue I'm struck by how dense it is, like there's just so much going on, yet you're able to tell each sort of scene or each bit in such a discrete little moment.
[SPEAKER_04]: You're creating these moments, so it doesn't feel like, I'm like, oh, I don't know exactly what's happening.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm like, oh, I know exactly what's happening in this moment.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then you string them together like beads.
[SPEAKER_04]: What do you credit that to?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, how did you get to how you packing so much story
[SPEAKER_01]: I've got one word, one word answer for that.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's talent.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's at a right combination of people at the height of their powers.
[SPEAKER_01]: People like David Lappam, who I've been quoted as saying, he's the greatest American storyteller of my generation.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I will say it again and again.
[SPEAKER_01]: He just is, Stray Bullets changed my life.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he is what I think every cartoonist aspires to, certainly in the indie world.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's a combination of the right people at the right time and an idea that is just that should crazy.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so we have Dan and Lazlo to thank for that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, Shelley, just to keep with you for a second, Lazlo, as he was saying, obviously you guys are comic book fans, but actually getting into the beat of a writing and creating the comic book, you certainly, there's nothing to get to you guys, but you Shelley, you certainly have the experience with Crafting that and the background with editing.
[SPEAKER_02]: What is involved when you're sitting down with them the first time or taking a look, they're scripted the first time and breaking that down.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, to be honest, last low came into the equation a few months after I was hired and started working with Dan.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's interesting, obviously, I've been freelance editing for six years and I run a boutique publishing company with my husband.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I have to be really selective about how I spend my time, and unless an idea really knocks me out, really hits me in a way that I really haven't been shaken up before, I'm probably not going to invest the time into it.
[SPEAKER_01]: because a lot of people think making comics is easy and I have to say in last law I can quote you on this because you had said you didn't realize just how hard it was to make comics.
[SPEAKER_01]: It, it is incredibly hard the percentage of error at every stage as to what could possibly go wrong is unbelievable.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah when I was first brought in to take a look at the
[SPEAKER_01]: I really thought it was something that would have been easily a part of my editing repertoire at Vertigo before I left the company, you know, and that to me is something I don't see anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: So right off the bat, warped crime caper, I knew I was intrigued, but it's editing today as a freelance editor, you have to be really
[SPEAKER_01]: specific and how you customize your skills and how you work with the people around you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Not a gamer, I was like straight up to Dan, I said, look, I played rock band and I played guitar here on my son as a drummer.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I never played GTA, I heard all about it because my kid was obsessed with it.
[SPEAKER_01]: When we first moved out to LA in 2014, all he wanted to do was go to Santa Monica and like check out the locations.
[SPEAKER_03]: So because he'd saw it because he'd seen them in GTA 5 and I think it turns to Shelley's point.
[SPEAKER_03]: We've done a lot of storytelling in games and the parallel that I will say is that games require a lot of characters, you know, a huge vast area, a lot of characters and then as the player
[SPEAKER_03]: you go interact with all these characters and then there's everything sort of crosses over and becomes connected.
[SPEAKER_03]: So the
[SPEAKER_03]: You asked about sort of the density, you know, Dan and I are used to pounding out a lot of dialogue, you know, games require a ton of dialogue.
[SPEAKER_03]: We had in Red Dead Redemption 2, there were 500,000 lines of dialogue.
[SPEAKER_03]: We didn't write all of those.
[SPEAKER_03]: But, you know, you're creating a world with NPCs
[SPEAKER_03]: and side characters and side missions and so Dan had this idea in his head and wrote that first script and started working with Shelley and then I came in and became a producer and co-writer on the next few issues but the
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, the issue that we've run into a lot is, you know, we've written a ton of copy and Shelley's like, you're going to cover up and all the art with all of this, but it's better to It's better to write more than you need and pare it down, but I'll also say that
[SPEAKER_03]: making games and just as in making the American Capers, it's such a collaborative process.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not just a script handed down on high.
[SPEAKER_03]: And frankly, the notes that we get from Lappam and Shelley are extremely additive.
[SPEAKER_03]: So Danil write the script.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'll add scenes and dialogue.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then
[SPEAKER_03]: send it to Shelley and David to get their feedback and there's, you know, about 40 bullet points of feed feedback.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or take a dozen.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then I'll, you know, then I do a, I'll do a rewrite and an edit and then send it to Dan and he does doesn't edit and then sometimes we'll do a live
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, and then it starts going through the, through the pipeline, um, we brought in David Lapone to help with the front end, basically, because when I started with Dan, what I realized was he was very used to writing audio scripts.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they were terrific.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there are so many, that he is such a killer cadence.
[SPEAKER_01]: There were so many great money lines.
[SPEAKER_01]: The characters themselves were just so messed up.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I've described it recently as like,
[SPEAKER_01]: a wrecking ball of hypocrites and losers.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, what more could you want from us?
[SPEAKER_04]: We describe our podcasts.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, you know, we're in good company.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think what you have, what, what, last low and damn we're quick to realize.
[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, you need great world building in games and in comics.
[SPEAKER_01]: But in comics, you also need to have a really strong visual
[SPEAKER_01]: show the writers how to take their dialogue and narration and how to work transitions, incorporate it on the page and then move it forward.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that to me is fascinating and that's how I adapted my editorial skills to working with Dan and Laslo.
[SPEAKER_01]: I pretty much was all in on the
[SPEAKER_01]: who, by the way, I was told was going to be one of the main heroes of this book, and that's another reason why I joined the cast because that to me was a point of view we need.
[SPEAKER_01]: And frankly, I was also really impressed with how, as lots of will say, a bunch of guys, a bunch of dudes who make video games were actually super smart and didn't
[SPEAKER_01]: And respected didn't just bring me in to be the token female component of American paper, but they actually really wanted my point of view because there are a lot of female characters.
[SPEAKER_01]: And as you've noticed, there's been some male nudity which by the way, I am so impressed that there hasn't really been female nudity, but there was absolutely male nudity with
[SPEAKER_01]: scrotum.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have a not in comics to talk about talk about.
[SPEAKER_01]: game people understanding like how you make a splash in comics, like to me, I couldn't ask for too much more.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think the first, sorry, the first male nudity in a popular video game was another scene that Dan wrote, which was in Granteft Auto, the Lost in
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, where there's a politician in the locker room, and that was sort of like, oh, oh, my God moment.
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, and yeah, that Marty seemed, um, hey, it, it really makes me laugh having this character, who's a billionaire, you know, buys a ranch to go play cowboy, uh, is so obsessed with not growing old and is shooting up all sorts of hormones and is complaining.
[SPEAKER_03]: that his business descends to, to low, which we welcome back to that issue in a later issue.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, I just have to interrupt by saying, come on, he refers to his.
[SPEAKER_01]: his members as the boys.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now seriously.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that, like, you just don't find that stuff in comics every day.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, so many, so many comics have, you know, and I read all kinds of comics, but you know, we didn't want to go with the sort of typical,
[SPEAKER_03]: gratuitous nudity and and and all that and and Shelley's been listen we hired Shelley because she brought to life some of some of our most favorite books over the over the years and we when we started talking to people in the industry her name came up and she's a bit brutal but the best kind of producer or slash editor is someone who's
[SPEAKER_03]: and pushes you and pushes you to have the best result.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, and, and I really appreciate that you and Dan have really welcomed all the red ink.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, let's face it.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no time to waste in monthly comics.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I've been, I've been a fan of the monthly comics since I picked up my very first
[SPEAKER_01]: If you really want to prove yourself, prove story, you have to deliver every 30 days.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think the art of the monthly comic is, I don't want to say it's dead, but it's on life support, because a lot of people just can't hit their marks.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the point is that the reader comes back to the comic book store or orders places or order to get that monthly rush.
[SPEAKER_01]: something they can count on.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, that's what's sad about the comic book industry.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'll tell you one thing, you can bet that these issues are going to be in your hands.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're delivering where we said we would.
[SPEAKER_01]: So March 18th, Alex, you said that's one issue five comes out.
[SPEAKER_01]: You bet.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's one of our most exciting issues to date because issue five is going to give you the most
[SPEAKER_01]: of a character that you've already known and loved for four issues.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're not going to see it coming and you're not going to believe your eyes.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I'm curious just in what character you sort of gravitated towards or that you hate the most.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I definitely don't hate any of them.
[SPEAKER_04]: I love all of them.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's why I was talking about the density and jumping from different points of view, being able to be with the couple that is just, I'm like, this is the most doomed situation.
[SPEAKER_04]: I've ever seen maybe in the comic, but it also feels like these people are real and they live in the middle of America somewhere.
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you referring to William and Marnie?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: You were referring to Orson and Eliza.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you have any doom to couples?
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, I guess that's fair.
[SPEAKER_04]: Everyone's a little bit doomed.
[SPEAKER_02]: Marnie is obsessed with the conspiracy theories, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: It's conspiracy theories.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.
[SPEAKER_02]: First of all, my wife's name is Marnie, so I don't appreciate that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Second of all, she is the character that I gravitate towards the most because she is the one that, first of all, I love my wife, but second of all, she is the most real, I think, like they're all real, but this is the one two Justin's point where it's like,
[SPEAKER_02]: for anybody who hasn't read the book.
[SPEAKER_02]: She is online all day, like most of us.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's doom-scrolling.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's getting deep into forums and conspiracy theories by the time we get to issue four.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's texting with somebody that she really should not be texting with for sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I guess we'll see how it goes, baby.
[SPEAKER_02]: She should.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my God.
[SPEAKER_01]: And her best friend is in AR-15.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's not forget that.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's holding weapons constantly.
[SPEAKER_02]: The thing that I'm most curious about with her though, and I think this is true of the entire book, is maybe this guest to your point about like actually hitting a monthly schedule is you're dealing with real things that are actually happening in America right now that is usually incredibly tough to do on a comic book release schedule so how are you making sure particularly at the pace where
[SPEAKER_02]: not to speak out of turn, absolutely bonkers, things are happening in America every single day and by the time we get off this call, five more things will happen.
[SPEAKER_02]: How do you make sure that it's still reflecting the world outside in a very, hopefully prescient way when you're at the very least working a couple of months behind, if not longer?
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, that was always the challenge with the with the games that we worked on because those are very much a satire of America in in a certain time and in place, you know, it was it was a bit easier with
[SPEAKER_03]: GTA 5 was set in modern day, and so you're working for years creating satire when, as you said, things change constantly, and.
[SPEAKER_04]: And specifically, he started interrupt you, but erasing satire.
[SPEAKER_04]: We're not going in a way where it's easier to sat be said, satirical.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's much harder because we're moving in, in saying absurd direction.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, regardless of your political point of view.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, yes, and we've definitely had situations where we'll come up with characters and, you know, funny, funny ideas and then a year later, and we're still in production, and those things sort of come true.
[SPEAKER_03]: We had a character in the Grand Theft Auto universe who was an action star and a reality TV star that decided to run for a governor of our fictional California in that game.
[SPEAKER_03]: We wrote these campaign ads where he came out and talked about how he hated crippled people, he hates old people, and it was just the most ridiculous, you know, over the
[SPEAKER_03]: kind of thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then, you know, you cut to, cut to later and it's like, wow, you know, we've, we've, you never thought this would come out of politicians miles and they're saying some of the craziest things, but I think since you've read issue for.
[SPEAKER_03]: you can see one of the things that Dan and I are really interested in with storytelling is when you have an extreme character, you know an extreme crazy liberal or extreme crazy conservative or a person who's extremely religious but and they
[SPEAKER_03]: It's interesting to see the path that's sent them on this, and it's interesting to, and you have a bit more, I guess, compassion for them, because you can see the choices that they made to get to this point, and that's one of the things I like about issue fours that you see this couple that moved to Wyoming.
[SPEAKER_03]: where we met her in issue one, she shoving bear claws and drinking gallons of iced coffee and just in a rage on her computer.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's those flawed characters that are fun to write and explore.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, and it also, you're not kind of sending, you're sort of just being like, this is a person, this is our character, and this is also a real person.
[SPEAKER_04]: I feel like you're drawing that, that type of switch sounds insane when you highlight it like that, but that's such a thing that's happening now, where people just fully flip-flop on all of their beliefs and values because of the internet.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we're living it, and I think that's what makes
[SPEAKER_01]: a series like this really stand out because I think everyone on this team, Dan Laslo, David Lappam Chris Anderson, who is adding so much of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Darkness, yeah, dark and warped sensibility.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's gotta go for broke now because of the world we're living in.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think all of these characters, we've either become a little bit like them in our lives or we know people who have become them.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's frightening so we might as well laugh at ourselves because we go insane if we didn't.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's the joy of working on a book like this.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we try to add a lot of, we try to add a lot of comedy in there too, you know, it's, it's, it's one thing to have this sort of, you know, dark and violent story, but there's, there's the comedy aspect of it.
[SPEAKER_03]: So you've got, you know, comedic violence, but also we've always made sure, I mean, this is,
[SPEAKER_03]: When I say, we, I mean, this comes out of Dan's storytelling, and where the characters that he comes up with, the direction that they go, we always make sure that awful people, you know, in the stories, that bad things happened to them, so.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's a good thing, so I think that when you have an ensemble cast, I think what makes it really intriguing is when you have shifting alliances.
[SPEAKER_01]: that are not arbitrary.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I will tell you that was the joy of working with Luzel and Dan and the team for the past year and a half.
[SPEAKER_01]: We had a long lead time, so to your point, Justin.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, obviously we have to be aware of what's happening politically and socially, but you know, I think we can all agree that in the world we live in.
[SPEAKER_01]: We got a taste of this eight years ago.
[SPEAKER_01]: We sighted knew it was coming back.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's been challenging, but not impossible to imagine things that could be even worse.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and I also point out that we try to show extremism on all sides.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that is one of the sort of the throughputs is that the internet is pushing people
[SPEAKER_03]: So so far over the edge, and it happens on all sides of the political spectrum, but also to, you know, there's just a list of, there's some, some people that are, that are fun to make fun of, you know, like the, the setting of Wyoming and Montana, which Dan and I have spent time there.
[SPEAKER_03]: There is an interesting sort of clash of cultures.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, when people from Hollywood and the people from Wall Street sort of discovered that area, they came in and bought up branches and started playing cowboy.
[SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, there's another character that we're yet to introduce that you'll probably see, I think, in nine is where they first appear.
[SPEAKER_03]: that's completely out of the field.
[SPEAKER_03]: And David and Shelley sometimes would say to Dan and I like, you're introducing new people.
[SPEAKER_03]: You got to be, you got to kill more people off and kill them off faster.
[SPEAKER_03]: And frankly, there was a couple of characters that were slated for death that we decided against.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's the fun of
[SPEAKER_03]: working on this ahead of time and we've been able to go back to previous issues and make some tweaks and changes because we're not up against really insane deadlines.
[SPEAKER_03]: We had three issues of this of this book done before we even signed with a publisher.
[SPEAKER_03]: We were just making it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's because they brought me on board and I still follow the tried and true true rules.
[SPEAKER_01]: that were imbued in me from the very early days of my time at Vertigo, you know, you really don't want to solicit or talk about anything until you have three in the drawer in our quotes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it works when you stick to your deadlines and you have someone on your back who says, let the page go, you have inked it enough, you know, you need to proofread the lettering.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's when an editor does, you know, an editor comes in and does whatever's necessary.
[SPEAKER_01]: And now in the modern age, customizes her skills to get the best out of everybody.
[SPEAKER_01]: And hopefully, that's what you'll continue to see with American paper because we're just getting started.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we're not even at the halfway point of the first year.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you see how crazy it's become.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and I'm sorry I'm struck by both the the collaborative and sort of the auditory nature of the way you work, which feels like very different in from most comic book creators we talk to and we come out Alex and I come out of the comedy world actually my buddy Jim Santangeli's a voice in red dead to who love absolutely loves being in that
[SPEAKER_04]: but that's like that auditory like what about this sort of this it adds the layering I feel like that speaks to why I was asking earlier about the density the tricky part is how do you know when it's done how do you know when you're like all right it had someone has to draw this it has to be made we have to get it yeah well it's it's finished
[SPEAKER_01]: That's, you know, that's when the editor has to kind of come in and say, you know, it's due, let's move it forward.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is great.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, one of the hardest things to remember about making comics is that you should start small and finish them so you can get to the next comic.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think a lot of people make the mistake of wanting to break into the business.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's
[SPEAKER_01]: big companies or that's students you know I teach comics editing and I think you know what I hear most often from students is that they've got 160 page original graphic novel script they'd like me to read and they have no credits and I don't know if they can write or draw so you you really have to be honest about your um
[SPEAKER_01]: limitations and you have to put your ego at the door.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the other thing that a lot of people at corporations who think making comics might be just an easy way to get a feature film made.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you have to be realistic and also listen to the people who actually rolled up their sleeves and put in the hard work and the heavy lifting.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe a little bit longer than you, which again, ego's clashing in entertainment.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not anything you haven't heard before, but this team, this team is solid because everybody has a respect and a trust for everyone else.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's where it comics today.
[SPEAKER_03]: And you have this story that was in Dan's head and then we were kind of on a script and to me what
[SPEAKER_03]: The difference between, you know, when we put in some art notes about, you know, we think that they should be in this location in that, but, you know, so forth, but it's not like a lot of the conscripts that I've read where the writers are, you know, very, very prescriptors.
[SPEAKER_03]: Lapum takes that story and.
[SPEAKER_03]: But characters in places that we didn't think of, he has action and blocking that we didn't think of.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it is such a crucial element.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then sometimes when we get to the lettering,
[SPEAKER_03]: And this was happening yesterday because we were working on the lettering for 10 is we've got three empty panels with not enough dialogue for those.
[SPEAKER_03]: But Dlappum had laid an interesting scenario out and so then we're writing more dialogue right there on the spot and dropping it in.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's been an exciting experience and also
[SPEAKER_03]: very terrifying.
[SPEAKER_03]: I always say video game fans are one level of nerddum but comic book fans are a whole other level and it's been really, it's been really hard warming to read how much people
[SPEAKER_03]: love this book.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's made me, it's made me really happy as someone that, you know, goes into a comic book store every week throughout, you know, high school and college and and, um, and it's also got me back back into buying way more comics than I should be buying.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, being in human lights on the cover of a comic there is no greater rush.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just want to walk back for one second and just say, look, the greatest thing I did is the editor on this book was to bring David Lappam on board in the front end of the project.
[SPEAKER_01]: And my husband, who was, you know, extrapping on my conversation when I was first suggesting that to Dan and Laslo.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, my husband was like, what are you doing?
[SPEAKER_01]: You just talked
[SPEAKER_01]: Because there's no one like David Lappam.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's story in art and he's storytelling.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he really is the maestro.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, what was stray bullets, but a warped caper?
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think what you're seeing is a master class where everyone in this team, and it's a big team.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like a traditional comic book where we've got Nate Pico's a Blambot, you know, super popular, talented,
[SPEAKER_01]: We've got Lee Low Ridge on color, one of the masters of palette, you know, especially limited palette.
[SPEAKER_01]: He brings more ambiance and nuance.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think they're just about any other colorist in the business.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, we mentioned Chris Anderson, we've got Tyler Boss on covers.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have Simon
[SPEAKER_01]: isn't afraid to work together and to pass the baton and do their parts and to me that's the best of monthly comics.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love hearing all of this by the way, I mean you touched on this earlier, but we talked to a lot of people and I will call out any names, but often you get with these sort of projects you hear video game guys are on a comic or movie guys are on a comic, and you're like, I know what's going on here, you're just using the comic, it's proof of concept to sell and up the chain, but here you guys talk, it's kind of fantastic to hear that
[SPEAKER_02]: Lazlo from your and Dan said that you clearly have been impacted by the process of creating these comics in her approach I'm going to do it way and obviously shelly you're keeping it on track It also explains something I was at comics pro a couple of week couple of years back Yeah, yeah, how's that we were both there to
[SPEAKER_02]: Uh, well, I'm sorry, I missed you.
[SPEAKER_02]: In the Dark Horse presentation, I'll be perfectly honest when the slide came up about American Capir.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was like this MCU timeline, but just for the one book leading into the trade.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, huh, that's interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't really see it like, and we're launching American German Capir, and also this and all of these other projects.
[SPEAKER_02]: But it's very clear now that you're all point from that was, we're on schedule.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're ahead of schedule.
[SPEAKER_02]: We don't redo it.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a plan for all this stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: Totally.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think the other thing I didn't get to touch on and I apologize, you know, it's there's always so much to say about comics and I'm just such a fan of the art form.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's why I'm still here in comics.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I love it to death, but it's words and pictures.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think even though last time Dan come from a very visual world, what I think people don't understand about making comics.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's because editing isn't what it used to be.
[SPEAKER_01]: My goal was to get Dan and Lazlo to understand the economy of space on the comic book page.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you can be a wonderful writer.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, look at Alan Moore.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, his scripts were rumored to be a hundred pages, you know, long for an issue.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's really not acceptable for anyone, maybe other than Alan Moore and two or three other people, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: But the thing that I wanted to do when I was brought in was make sure that they knew the nuts and bolts behind the scenes of how to make a comic and that involves
[SPEAKER_01]: cutting your darlings and coming up with transitions from panel to panel or seen to scene, knowing how to use them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because of course, they're transitions in video games are very different, and film transitions are different.
[SPEAKER_01]: But we have a similar language.
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, that's why we all worked so well is because there was not just one ego here.
[SPEAKER_01]: We all have our own giant egos, but we all leave them at the door, and we all want to work together.
[SPEAKER_01]: to create the greatest story.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's what it is at the end of the day.
[SPEAKER_03]: The other thing I'll say is, to your point, Alex about, when you see someone's like, oh, this person's from this discipline, and they're going to make a comment.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, I myself am also skeptical about that.
[SPEAKER_03]: But every project that Dan and I have worked on together, we've been creative partners for 25 years.
[SPEAKER_03]: Every thing from, we should do a cartoon that you can watch inside the game, or we should do radio that you can listen to, as you're driving around the car in the city, or any of that stuff that we've created, or hey, we should do a comic book.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's never a discussion about if we think this is gonna make money, or could we turn this into a film?
[SPEAKER_03]: We literally, we never have those discussions.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like,
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, he has an idea and says, Hey, it'd be fun to do this.
[SPEAKER_03]: That would be cool.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we go, yeah, let's do that.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then we, we, we go make it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, is one of the, we didn't want to have to get permission from, from a publisher and like show them a pitch or whatever.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like when we started talking to all, all the publishers.
[SPEAKER_03]: from, you know, image D.C. to Marvel to everybody, it was like, well, we've already been making this thing, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: We just spent in our money making this thing and we think it's fun and we think it's pretty cool and it's a compelling story with a lot of,
[SPEAKER_03]: different conflicted characters, and so, you know, we just sent us first few issues to Dark Horse, and they were clearly the best partner for this book, and I've been extremely supportive.
[SPEAKER_03]: But, you know, going back to the sort of the characters and the story I like,
[SPEAKER_03]: I like that we have and it's what's going on in modern days.
[SPEAKER_03]: Everybody's in crisis like this is too much this is this is you know we're all just we're all overwhelmed and it's it.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was thinking about, you know, we've got this story about these escaped, um, these people that sort of fled Mexico and they were being smuggled in this van and they think that they're, you know, coming to this better place in the United States and what happens, these, these three guys that had just escaped from prison by Jack the van, drive it to Wyoming and smash it in between two houses because, um, ever, um,
[SPEAKER_03]: after being told that the driver tells her to pee in a jug and so she just smashes him on the head with a jug of piss causes the van crash and that was not by the way that was not in the original script we were we were talking with David and said hey we you know we we need to have ever somehow make this
[SPEAKER_03]: van crash and he's like you just wrote this whole conversation where she's arguing with these guys that have sort of kidnapped them and want a woman to basically go to the bathroom and want some you know a gallon milk jug.
[SPEAKER_03]: He was like you should you should totally have her bash him over the head with it with it and I was like oh you are you are on board I wish we were working together in games.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean well that's the thing when you hire the right people
[SPEAKER_02]: I could talk about all of this forever and I have a million other questions about like forum and stuff, but the interest to not make this a three hour log podcast since you did bring it back to the comic and we do have issue five coming up.
[SPEAKER_02]: What can you tease about that?
[SPEAKER_02]: What can people expect from American Capre number five?
[SPEAKER_03]: five and I've really wrestled with whether we should have swapped four and five or maybe put five earlier on and came to the conclusion that know it is the it is the right place.
[SPEAKER_03]: There is a massive reveal about a character that so far seems quite
[SPEAKER_03]: quite innocent.
[SPEAKER_03]: If you will, but their backstory is extremely insane and bloody and bloody.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's what I've loved throughout this process is it just keeps getting
[SPEAKER_03]: easier and crazier as you reveal who these people are and introducing new characters that are very extreme.
[SPEAKER_03]: very strange so yeah I can't I can't tell too much about five without really without spoiling it but I will have to say we've internally we've always called at the women's issue because it follows it follows really gets into the story more about three female characters
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I wasn't on board until I heard about the girl.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, for the boys, I'd prefer the girl.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Definitely.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's glamour and there's gore.
[SPEAKER_01]: Excellent.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's got everything and shelly last though.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much for coming on.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for chatting.
[SPEAKER_02]: We've really been enjoying the book and I'm looking forward to the next one and coming out every month here on him.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I was pleased.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, 12 12 issues.
[SPEAKER_03]: People sort of told us we're crazy.
[SPEAKER_03]: They said, oh, people just do four issue things now.
[SPEAKER_03]: And when he said, well, we can't tell this story and
[SPEAKER_03]: four issues would struggle to tell it in eight.
[SPEAKER_03]: And in fact, I don't know, just maybe a spoiler, but the last issue, we just keep adding pages.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's going to be, that's going to be a thick issue because everything comes together.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we've got plans for other stories in the American
[SPEAKER_03]: keep on because, you know, that's what's fun about coming up with these, these insane characters, is, you think, oh, we should definitely, you know, we should not kill this person off so that so that we can do some more storytelling with them, but a lot of people probably will die.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: There aren't people to kill anyway.
[SPEAKER_01]: As happens, you know, in the world we live in, but thank you so much for having us.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's really been a lot of fun and hope to come back on the show sometime.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, please.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: And one week, there's no goal in mind, we stay coming to see ourselves And it's been all right, it's been all right, it's been all right, it's been all right, it's been all right, it's been all right
[SPEAKER_00]: They sit on crappy couches, and they let the sick on me And he's just a monkey, they're like a special guest speaker So grab your ring, hammer, don't relate, or it goes, they're good