WEBVTT 00:00.419 --> 00:02.762 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm Julie Kraftcheck, and I'm U.A. 00:02.782 --> 00:02.922 [SPEAKER_02]: Xu. 00:02.962 --> 00:05.786 [SPEAKER_02]: This is the psychology of relationships. 00:07.948 --> 00:11.653 [SPEAKER_01]: With marriage rates on the decline, it raises a big question. 00:12.093 --> 00:20.123 [SPEAKER_01]: To people still want to get married, and if so, why does marriage continue to hold so much emotional and cultural weights? 00:20.724 --> 00:28.654 [SPEAKER_01]: In this episode, we're talking with Allison Raskin, mental health advocate, relationship coach, and author of the book, I do, I think, 00:28.634 --> 00:38.251 [SPEAKER_01]: that explores the complexities of modern marriage, shaped in part by her own journey from a broken engagement to eventually tying the knot with her now husband. 00:38.392 --> 00:50.794 [SPEAKER_01]: We unpack the evolving meaning of marriage today, the societal expectations that still surround it, and why the decision to commit can feel both deeply personal and heavily influenced by external pressure. 00:50.774 --> 01:01.234 [SPEAKER_01]: From a psychological perspective, marriage often represents security, identity, and belonging, which is why conversations about a contrigger, fear, urgency, or doubt. 01:01.594 --> 01:14.318 [SPEAKER_01]: We discuss how to make the leap of faith feel less overwhelming, how to navigate mismatched timelines or differing desires around marriage, and how to separate what you truly want from what you would told you should want. 01:14.298 --> 01:21.129 [SPEAKER_01]: Remember to subscribe to the Psychology of Relationships on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen. 01:21.409 --> 01:26.076 [SPEAKER_01]: And if this episode gave you clarity around commitment, we'd love a reading or review. 01:26.096 --> 01:33.027 [SPEAKER_01]: This is the Psychology of Relationships and you're listening to an episode that just might change the way you show up for love. 01:33.428 --> 01:34.129 [SPEAKER_01]: Enjoy! 01:37.214 --> 01:44.090 [SPEAKER_02]: By the way, I've had this book on my coffee table for a while and it's the best conversation starter for anybody who comes over. 01:44.151 --> 01:48.962 [SPEAKER_02]: Everyone grabs this book and they go, I do, I think. 01:49.567 --> 01:50.489 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's talk. 01:50.509 --> 02:00.487 [SPEAKER_01]: So you are buried now to your husband, John, that you talk about in the book, and you're also engaged to someone else before that who ended up calling off the engagement. 02:00.627 --> 02:06.958 [SPEAKER_01]: So of curious, like, how did both of these experiences impact you even wanting to write a book about marriage? 02:07.019 --> 02:11.727 [SPEAKER_01]: Because it sounds like a lot of different experiences that went down for you. 02:11.707 --> 02:25.064 [SPEAKER_00]: So, I would say that the broken engagement was really the catalyst for the book because I was someone who had just wanted to be married my whole life kind of obsessed with the idea of marriage to unhealthy levels at certain points. 02:25.325 --> 02:27.150 [SPEAKER_00]: Basically, wink wink my twenties. 02:27.130 --> 02:31.177 [SPEAKER_00]: And then what happened was I thought I had done it, right? 02:31.217 --> 02:44.279 [SPEAKER_00]: I finally had gone to engage this guy who was like everything I'd ever wanted in a partner and then six months later he just left without really much of an explanation other than something is missing, right? 02:44.299 --> 02:49.628 [SPEAKER_00]: And so it was really this realization that like, oh, you're never safe. 02:49.608 --> 03:04.680 [SPEAKER_00]: And it was this weird thing because you know how the human mind is making me sense I had always feared that I wouldn't get married But then I had this sense that if I did it would last and that's probably because in my family they're like almost no divorces 03:04.660 --> 03:08.945 [SPEAKER_00]: So I sort of just like have this frame of reference for like, yes, you get married, and then you stay married. 03:09.085 --> 03:28.930 [SPEAKER_00]: Even though I very much logically knew that that was not true And so even though we weren't married, I had viewed engagement sort of as the same level of commitment and it was really for me Just sort of like, oh, now we plan the party But like once you ask me to marry we've reached that level and so then when he left it was like kind of just shattered all of my illusions about marriage and 03:28.910 --> 03:50.152 [SPEAKER_00]: seeing it as sort of this like end goal that would then finally mean I could like relax and just like sink into partnership and then I started dating my now husband and it was sort of this thing of like how can I approach marriage now that I don't think it will save me and now that I don't think that it's necessarily going to last forever. 03:50.473 --> 03:55.558 [SPEAKER_00]: What is my relationship to marriage now 03:55.538 --> 03:56.059 [SPEAKER_00]: right? 03:56.259 --> 04:03.286 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I kind of like dove in and the other element of the book was that I didn't understand how some people did it. 04:03.786 --> 04:09.772 [SPEAKER_00]: Like right, you look around and you're like, how are some people staying together for decades or their entire life? 04:09.812 --> 04:14.457 [SPEAKER_00]: Like what is the secret sauce and like why have I struggled so much in my relationships? 04:14.737 --> 04:24.047 [SPEAKER_00]: Even though I see my parents and my sister and all these people I know and they seem to have quote unquote figured it out, right? 04:24.067 --> 04:24.347 [SPEAKER_00]: So 04:24.327 --> 04:28.451 [SPEAKER_00]: We're like, I'm going undercover to like figure out how do you make this work? 04:28.691 --> 04:32.815 [SPEAKER_00]: But also, it then really expanded into, but why do we even do it? 04:33.055 --> 04:40.061 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, because now that it's like 2024, this aside will need to get married at least in Western culture. 04:40.081 --> 04:41.122 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's a big caveat. 04:41.142 --> 04:49.029 [SPEAKER_00]: I only really cover Western marriage because it's such a culturally charged thing that you like can't talk about it in every culture because it's so different. 04:49.229 --> 04:54.334 [SPEAKER_00]: And there are obviously pockets of people that are living in Western culture 04:54.314 --> 04:54.494 [SPEAKER_00]: it. 04:54.695 --> 05:00.966 [SPEAKER_00]: But I was like, if we don't need it anymore, because I as a woman can now get my own mortgage, have my own credit card. 05:01.006 --> 05:04.131 [SPEAKER_00]: I can live with my partner without people like gasping. 05:04.352 --> 05:05.914 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I can just co-habitate. 05:05.934 --> 05:07.557 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't have to get married. 05:07.918 --> 05:11.985 [SPEAKER_00]: Why do people still take this risk even though there is such a high divorce rate? 05:11.965 --> 05:27.919 [SPEAKER_00]: and so it was really interesting just sort of like diving into that and just how much significance we attach to marriage on a cultural level, a financial level, emotional level, and so the end result of the book isn't really like that I'm pro marriage for everyone. 05:28.220 --> 05:39.930 [SPEAKER_00]: It's more really understanding why I value marriage and how to maybe help other people discover why they would 05:39.910 --> 06:04.281 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, if marriage doesn't jive with you or you don't feel like this is something that makes sense to you give in the Patriarchical harmful history of it then don't do it and that's kind of great that you don't have to do it anymore In your research, what did you discover about the old Allison that's different from the new post Broken engagement Allison because I'm asking this 06:04.261 --> 06:10.368 [SPEAKER_02]: from someone who always thought, when I was like five years old, I thought, of course, when I get older, I'm going to get married. 06:10.628 --> 06:11.649 [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't think about why. 06:11.669 --> 06:15.173 [SPEAKER_02]: It was just like, of course, people get old and they get married. 06:15.413 --> 06:24.463 [SPEAKER_02]: But now as I'm delaying marriage and thinking about it, it's a whole other ballgame of thinking about why is it even important. 06:24.503 --> 06:26.785 [SPEAKER_02]: So can you take us back to the old Allison? 06:26.886 --> 06:29.188 [SPEAKER_02]: Why she thought marriage was so important? 06:29.428 --> 06:30.049 [SPEAKER_02]: What was it? 06:30.029 --> 06:34.078 [SPEAKER_00]: Actually, I think my reasons for thinking it's important have remained the same. 06:34.098 --> 06:46.485 [SPEAKER_00]: For me, marriage symbolizes family, and so it is just allowing my partner to enter a level of intimacy that I've only ever had with my immediate family. 06:46.465 --> 06:55.998 [SPEAKER_00]: and so allowing myself to feel dependent and connected to them in a way that I just for whatever reason didn't feel comfortable doing until I was married. 06:56.219 --> 07:04.390 [SPEAKER_00]: But a big thing that's changed, I'd say, is I now really don't think that a marriage has to last until death to be successful. 07:04.370 --> 07:14.844 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that there's the possibility that you can have a 10-year marriage and it's wonderful and loving and then something happens or you grow a part and it no longer makes sense and I don't think that that would be a mistake. 07:15.044 --> 07:19.309 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I used to think that it's like if you don't make it to the finish line, it was all for not. 07:19.650 --> 07:23.575 [SPEAKER_00]: But I actually think that marriages of many links can be super valuable. 07:23.595 --> 07:29.803 [SPEAKER_00]: It's really about just kind of continuously checking in with yourself by being like, is this additive? 07:29.783 --> 07:36.354 [SPEAKER_00]: because it if it's no longer additive to your life, if it no longer enhances your life, then it might not make sense anymore. 07:36.554 --> 07:39.839 [SPEAKER_00]: But that doesn't negate the fact that maybe for 30 years it did. 07:39.859 --> 07:43.806 [SPEAKER_01]: I really like that actually in your book that you just normalized to force. 07:44.106 --> 07:56.466 [SPEAKER_01]: I wanna come back to that for sure, but I'm curious like when you talk to the various people that you did during this research, like what were some of the conflicting views that you saw on marriage? 07:56.446 --> 08:03.593 [SPEAKER_01]: What is the pulse of marriage, I guess, with like millennials, Gen Z, or maybe even like Gen X that have been married before? 08:03.613 --> 08:14.604 [SPEAKER_00]: I think something that's really funny is like people's views on pre-nups, like there's a story in the book where, you know, one couple, one of the wives is a lawyer. 08:15.104 --> 08:17.907 [SPEAKER_00]: And so she deals with legality all day. 08:17.947 --> 08:21.230 [SPEAKER_00]: She like understands probably how difficult to force is. 08:21.531 --> 08:24.073 [SPEAKER_00]: And she refused to get a pre-nup. 08:24.053 --> 08:32.665 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I thought that that was very funny because to her her emotional side took over her logical side when it came to pre-nups. 08:33.066 --> 08:39.374 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that that speaks to a trend that you can see quite often that like, and I think this about all romantic relationships. 08:39.394 --> 08:44.542 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, we show up in our romantic relationships kind of different than we do in the rest of our lives, right? 08:44.642 --> 08:45.243 [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely. 08:45.263 --> 08:48.888 [SPEAKER_00]: How have you ever been like, wow, I've never behaved this way with anyone else, right? 08:48.908 --> 08:52.052 [SPEAKER_00]: Is this bringing this out of me right now? 08:52.032 --> 08:57.002 [SPEAKER_00]: Why do I feel this way that's like weirdly superstitious when I'm not a superstitious person? 08:57.042 --> 09:01.731 [SPEAKER_00]: Like it just can bring up these parts of ourselves that are otherwise kind of dormant or an active. 09:02.052 --> 09:12.572 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think that that was interesting of like how people will still view pre-nups and how some people will still view it as like a bad sign if you want one. 09:12.552 --> 09:20.581 [SPEAKER_00]: When I actually think that they should become more and more normalized, you know, depending on your state in California, the laws are pretty fair. 09:20.901 --> 09:26.667 [SPEAKER_00]: So like we didn't need to get one, but we kind of agreed that if we leave California, we'll get one because that's a post-nup. 09:27.067 --> 09:34.455 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I also think just like when I was growing up, the idea of a single income house made a lot of sense and was very normalized. 09:34.856 --> 09:41.783 [SPEAKER_00]: And now I really see the dangers of a single income house and not keeping your toe in the workforce in some way. 09:41.763 --> 09:43.809 [SPEAKER_00]: Unless you are super projected. 09:43.829 --> 09:56.785 [SPEAKER_00]: And so that means that if like one partner, and this is often a woman in a heterosexual relationship, but it can happen in any relationship, decides to take themselves out of the workforce to care for the children. 09:56.765 --> 10:06.703 [SPEAKER_00]: or for whatever reason, they have to be so protected that if the marriage ends, their quality of life will not plummet compared to the partner that stayed in the workforce. 10:07.064 --> 10:13.035 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think just like finally getting to that place of like, you can't just assume it's gonna be okay. 10:13.218 --> 10:21.771 [SPEAKER_01]: that's so funny that you say California, age you want a pre-dub less, because I live in California, and I feel like I have the exact opposite feeling towards it. 10:21.931 --> 10:26.277 [SPEAKER_01]: Because it just shows like how individual everyone is in their situation. 10:26.297 --> 10:31.665 [SPEAKER_01]: And when I like about pre-dub, is you're deciding the rules, not the state that you live in. 10:31.645 --> 10:40.296 [SPEAKER_01]: So I think, yeah, of course, like it's an individual decision whether you should get one, but I think this notion of like, it means the relationship is doomed. 10:40.456 --> 10:44.641 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's interesting to hear that some people are still holding on to that even in 2024. 10:45.562 --> 10:54.734 [SPEAKER_00]: Definitely, or just that it means that you're not fully committed, but the way I talk about the book is basically, like you don't get car insurance because you plan on getting into an accident. 10:54.834 --> 10:57.897 [SPEAKER_00]: You get car insurance in case you get into an accident. 10:58.058 --> 11:01.602 [SPEAKER_02]: Right, but don't you think systemically, 11:01.582 --> 11:03.486 [SPEAKER_02]: Divorces are just ugly. 11:03.747 --> 11:13.088 [SPEAKER_02]: Our legal system just makes divorce so gut-wrenching and nasty that all we think about when it comes to divorce is all the negative associations with it. 11:13.529 --> 11:17.498 [SPEAKER_02]: If we'd removed some of the legal challenges around 11:17.478 --> 11:21.503 [SPEAKER_02]: Devourses I think marriage just might be more successful. 11:21.784 --> 11:24.367 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I feel like some couples are like You know, let's just hold on. 11:24.767 --> 11:26.169 [SPEAKER_02]: Let's just hold on till the end. 11:26.189 --> 11:39.807 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, like a few more years But if we are free to exit a marriage obviously, it can't be that easy But if we're it's just more Positive then I think marriage just wouldn't be this tough for people to swallow. 11:39.907 --> 11:40.268 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 11:40.288 --> 11:45.915 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's a good thing about when it goes shading a pre-nup Is that you're negotiating it when you're on good terms right? 11:45.895 --> 12:03.617 [SPEAKER_00]: Right, you're negotiating it when you're in love when you respect the person, but also, you know, it could be very revealing how that negotiation goes right because it will show how your partner may be If you use you or values you if they're trying to give you an unfair prenapped or post not even right 12:03.597 --> 12:09.126 [SPEAKER_01]: I guess that, like, begs the question that I think a lot of people have is, like, why just not live together? 12:09.226 --> 12:17.941 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, why even do all the legalities have this whole thing that you have to come up with a pre-dop or not do a pre-dop or go through the legal stuff? 12:17.961 --> 12:19.884 [SPEAKER_00]: I think there are, like, two major elements. 12:20.305 --> 12:22.749 [SPEAKER_00]: One is practical and one is emotional. 12:23.070 --> 12:26.736 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, practically, you can't get on your partner's health insurance. 12:26.716 --> 12:48.117 [SPEAKER_00]: like that's a major thing you know a lot of people get married for health insurance they also will maybe get married so that they can have the ability to make medical decisions about their partner in a way that like you can't if you're just co-habitating I mean some states have different laws in terms of common law or if you get like no diversity or citizenship or something like that yeah so easy 12:48.097 --> 12:50.280 [SPEAKER_00]: It also comes with a social status. 12:50.520 --> 12:56.809 [SPEAKER_00]: People tend to take your relationship more seriously if you're married, especially if you have children together. 12:57.030 --> 13:01.616 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like less confusing for your kids to have to describe and talk about their family. 13:02.057 --> 13:05.802 [SPEAKER_00]: Because it's like this thing that is just like inherently understood in our culture. 13:05.782 --> 13:12.952 [SPEAKER_00]: And also like the benefits of like maybe you'll get some tax breaks, maybe you'll throw a wedding and you'll get 10 grand and gifts. 13:13.353 --> 13:17.839 [SPEAKER_00]: And you'll get celebrated and attention and you know like it's a big milestone. 13:17.859 --> 13:20.763 [SPEAKER_00]: You get to say, now I'm an adult, now I'm married. 13:21.124 --> 13:23.928 [SPEAKER_00]: Whereas marriage used to really be the beginning of adulthood. 13:24.369 --> 13:28.334 [SPEAKER_00]: Now it's sort of a thing that is happening when people feel like they are financially secure. 13:28.535 --> 13:33.081 [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's sort of like the icing on the cake of like, I proving to you that I did life right. 13:33.442 --> 13:35.164 [SPEAKER_00]: I figured it out, you know. 13:35.144 --> 13:49.208 [SPEAKER_00]: that on the emotional level, I think that for some people because of how we grow up with marriage and how it is so emphasized in our society, there can be just a level of intimacy that is not unlocked until you were married, right? 13:49.348 --> 13:56.460 [SPEAKER_00]: So like, maybe you wouldn't really feel comfortable paying for your partner to go back to grad school unless you were married. 13:56.440 --> 14:14.398 [SPEAKER_00]: right because like if you're not married there could be a level like I pay for this and then you bail tomorrow like there's just some extra legal protections and sort of like cultural protections right because it's like people will just view you different if you just like bail on your spouse then if you break up with your partner right we just still think of it and view it differently. 14:14.378 --> 14:21.208 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think for some people, it just like, it maybe just is like a mental shift of we are now a unit moving through this world together. 14:21.229 --> 14:26.216 [SPEAKER_00]: We can combine our finances because there's a legal document binding us to each other. 14:26.256 --> 14:27.939 [SPEAKER_00]: We can pool our resources. 14:28.059 --> 14:34.048 [SPEAKER_00]: Therefore, we can like make more money faster because we have combined investments, combined help. 14:34.068 --> 14:36.572 [SPEAKER_00]: And so just sort of feeling like you have some 14:36.552 --> 14:47.841 [SPEAKER_00]: some backup for the decisions you make around your relationship like you know if you buy a house together you don't have to get like a lawyer involved to make sure you're both protected because right like the marriage does that. 14:48.102 --> 14:52.185 [SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of appeal to it especially in the way that our culture is currently set up. 14:52.746 --> 15:06.357 [SPEAKER_00]: What I'm curious about is if our culture is moving away towards putting so much onus on marriage and if it becomes less of a social status will as many people 15:06.556 --> 15:08.640 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's my question for you. 15:08.680 --> 15:17.836 [SPEAKER_02]: Your opinion, do you think society is just behind when it comes to mindset around marriage and also legalities around marriage? 15:18.197 --> 15:21.603 [SPEAKER_02]: Or do you think society's actually catching up to this new way? 15:21.663 --> 15:28.075 [SPEAKER_02]: Because I've heard that Gen Z doesn't really think about marriage the same way that many of us do. 15:28.173 --> 15:29.214 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm pro-marriage. 15:29.835 --> 15:31.998 [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like everything I've been saying it sounds like I'm not. 15:32.078 --> 15:34.541 [SPEAKER_00]: I actually am really pro-marriage for certain people. 15:34.781 --> 15:43.732 [SPEAKER_00]: For people that really want to go through life in a partnership, in a committed partnership, I think that marriage is a beautiful, wonderful thing. 15:43.892 --> 15:46.875 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't necessarily think that that's a lifestyle that everybody wants. 15:47.116 --> 15:54.805 [SPEAKER_00]: But I think that the thing that would really have to happen for marriage to have less social status and appeal 15:54.785 --> 15:59.874 [SPEAKER_00]: is for other relationships to get the same level of societal approval, right? 15:59.974 --> 16:11.033 [SPEAKER_00]: Because we've expanded marriage so now more people can do it, but we're not expanding the strength of friendship, or the strength of a parent-child relationship, right? 16:11.153 --> 16:16.302 [SPEAKER_00]: I can't put my best friend on my health insurance, even if I live with my best friend, right? 16:16.602 --> 16:19.948 [SPEAKER_00]: I can't have my best friend make my medical decisions for me. 16:19.928 --> 16:28.739 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think what would really have to shift though I think that very much could happen is just like a reshuffling of how we view and rank different relationships in our lives. 16:28.919 --> 16:36.008 [SPEAKER_00]: Because for a lot of people, their friendships are the most important relationships in their lives, but society doesn't view it that way. 16:36.168 --> 16:36.769 [SPEAKER_00]: No. 16:37.169 --> 16:44.518 [SPEAKER_00]: And so then there's still this poll to be like, well, but no one's validating the importance that my platonic best friend has to me. 16:44.498 --> 16:47.303 [SPEAKER_00]: or my grandma, or, you know, my cousin. 16:47.363 --> 17:02.608 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think if we become more expansive and how we view human relationship, and we stop kind of ranking the values of the different relationships, and instead judge it more by the role it plays in our individual lives, then I can see marriage becoming less prioritized and important. 17:02.588 --> 17:10.768 [SPEAKER_00]: I think Gen Z is kind of in a place of like speaking with a broad brush, but like I think there's a sense of people don't have to get married, but maybe I still want to. 17:11.951 --> 17:17.745 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's interesting what you were saying about just like normalizing the other relationships or... 17:17.725 --> 17:20.369 [SPEAKER_01]: lifting them up because I think that's exactly it. 17:20.389 --> 17:43.682 [SPEAKER_01]: Like I remember for years it was like I always like had marriage in the back of my mind but it wasn't necessarily like the biggest priority because I felt like you know I had all this other connection but then society kind of makes it be like all your friends are eventually gonna pair off get married and like that's their primary 17:43.662 --> 17:51.514 [SPEAKER_01]: So like, how do you get to the root of like, do I want to get married for me versus like, this is what I should do? 17:51.574 --> 17:53.076 [SPEAKER_01]: This is what everyone else is doing. 17:53.096 --> 17:55.119 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna be left behind like all of that. 17:55.360 --> 18:09.501 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that was a big goal in the book was to help people figure out that question and figure out what marriage means to them individually and to sort of piece out what do I want versus what are people's expectations of me and what is driving this desire? 18:09.481 --> 18:17.057 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think it's really just like having conversations with yourself and also potentially with your partner of like, well, I do want to get married. 18:17.157 --> 18:19.001 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, like, how can I answer that question? 18:19.221 --> 18:25.635 [SPEAKER_00]: For me, I answered it with seeing my husband as my family, feeling comfortable being dependent on him to the level. 18:25.675 --> 18:26.978 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm dependent on my family. 18:27.098 --> 18:30.004 [SPEAKER_00]: That's neither a good nor bad thing that that's true about me. 18:29.984 --> 18:32.267 [SPEAKER_00]: Right, but it just simply is. 18:32.628 --> 18:41.782 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think a thing to sit with this is to say, if I was living with my partner for 30 years and we never got married, would I feel like I was missing out on something? 18:42.763 --> 18:44.966 [SPEAKER_00]: Right, I mean, a committed relationship. 18:45.187 --> 18:50.274 [SPEAKER_00]: We show up for each other all the intricacies of how I went in relationship to work happens. 18:50.455 --> 18:54.501 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, what I feel like there was something I still wanted that I didn't have. 18:54.801 --> 18:57.325 [SPEAKER_00]: And if the answer is like, not really, 18:57.305 --> 18:59.629 [SPEAKER_00]: and you probably don't need to get married. 18:59.649 --> 19:10.268 [SPEAKER_00]: But if the answer is actually, yeah, like it is important for me to have this public declaration of our love to make these vows to each other in front of the people that we love. 19:10.569 --> 19:15.478 [SPEAKER_00]: And also just to each other to just like have it on record being like, I'm showing up for you in this way. 19:15.498 --> 19:16.880 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm showing up for you in that way. 19:17.101 --> 19:17.602 [SPEAKER_01]: Right. 19:17.782 --> 19:21.709 [SPEAKER_00]: I also think it's important to allow yourself to say, actually I don't care about that. 19:22.111 --> 19:30.130 [SPEAKER_00]: And to get to a place where you really sit with yourself and say like, am I performing caring about marriage or do I actually care about marriage? 19:30.160 --> 19:32.543 [SPEAKER_02]: You could also have a wedding and not be married. 19:32.743 --> 19:34.825 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you can kind of do whatever you want. 19:34.885 --> 19:36.447 [SPEAKER_00]: Which is true. 19:36.467 --> 19:37.048 [SPEAKER_00]: You can do whatever you want. 19:37.068 --> 19:38.049 [SPEAKER_02]: You really want a big party. 19:38.129 --> 19:40.472 [SPEAKER_02]: You can throw a big party, nobody's stopping you. 19:40.512 --> 19:44.416 [SPEAKER_02]: So for the people who do want to get married. 19:44.696 --> 19:47.479 [SPEAKER_02]: Let's say they read your book and they're like, I'm clear about that. 19:47.580 --> 19:48.601 [SPEAKER_02]: I do want to get married. 19:48.861 --> 19:52.545 [SPEAKER_02]: And then they start dating someone, and those early dating days. 19:52.865 --> 19:56.910 [SPEAKER_02]: Is there something that they should be looking for in a potential partner? 19:56.890 --> 20:00.594 [SPEAKER_02]: that could be different than someone who's not looking for a marriage. 20:00.614 --> 20:25.902 [SPEAKER_00]: I think you have to look for someone who understands how to be in partnership, who understands what it means to be partnered up, because that means that you no longer only care about yourself, you have to take someone else's needs into consideration all of the time, not just when it's convenient, you have to be willing to compromise, and you have to be willing to like work through things, even if like you maybe don't want to and it's really hard. 20:25.882 --> 20:26.243 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 20:26.423 --> 20:30.109 [SPEAKER_00]: I think just the ability to be a partner is something to look for and look. 20:30.249 --> 20:33.314 [SPEAKER_00]: That's not something that necessarily comes natural to all of us, right? 20:33.434 --> 20:38.442 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, some people, especially if we're getting married later, maybe you've been living by yourself for the last seven years. 20:38.663 --> 20:46.776 [SPEAKER_00]: And so like the idea of like taking another person's needs into account is kind of like baffling like you've never had to like text someone that you're going to be home late. 20:46.756 --> 20:56.953 [SPEAKER_00]: because you could just come home like, you know, then I mean, you know, you never had to cancel your guys trip because your partner's sister's getting married, you've never had to prioritize in that sort of way. 20:57.153 --> 21:04.224 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think that there is a learning curve for certain people, but what you want to see is you want to see a willingness to figure it out. 21:04.445 --> 21:12.578 [SPEAKER_00]: You want to see a willingness to learn how to be a good partner, rather than a reluctance to have to change the way that they're currently living as a single person. 21:12.760 --> 21:16.227 [SPEAKER_01]: So it our world today, everyone wants to see it right away. 21:16.448 --> 21:23.001 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I date one or two, they want to decide is this person, relationship, ready, marriage, material, all of that. 21:23.282 --> 21:31.579 [SPEAKER_01]: Are there ways to see how partner oriented they are that early on or is some of it just, like we have to just give it time? 21:31.643 --> 21:32.726 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's a mix. 21:32.746 --> 21:37.016 [SPEAKER_00]: I think unfortunately you have to give a time which is something younger me absolutely hated. 21:37.478 --> 21:41.207 [SPEAKER_00]: The idea that actually you don't know someone until you spend a good amount of time with them. 21:41.528 --> 21:45.698 [SPEAKER_00]: And also not just spend time with them but experience things together, right? 21:45.999 --> 21:47.503 [SPEAKER_00]: How do they act in a crisis? 21:47.643 --> 21:49.247 [SPEAKER_00]: How do they act when they're stressed out? 21:49.227 --> 21:55.063 [SPEAKER_00]: How do they act when they're looking for a new job or their sick or I'm sick or our dog is sick? 21:55.124 --> 22:04.249 [SPEAKER_00]: Like you're collecting evidence constantly about this person to see if they're the right fit for you and sometimes you need things to happen to get that evidence. 22:04.229 --> 22:07.754 [SPEAKER_00]: But I also think that there's some helpful questions that you can ask along the way. 22:07.774 --> 22:14.763 [SPEAKER_00]: I think learning about someone's relationship histories is interesting and not just necessarily how it went, but how they view it. 22:15.023 --> 22:17.046 [SPEAKER_00]: Why did their last relationship not work out? 22:17.226 --> 22:18.187 [SPEAKER_00]: What was their point of view? 22:18.227 --> 22:20.030 [SPEAKER_00]: What would their ex say about it? 22:20.310 --> 22:29.342 [SPEAKER_00]: Is the ex just some crazy person who, like, everything was their fault or do they have the ability to have empathy for another person that things didn't work out with? 22:29.322 --> 22:33.957 [SPEAKER_00]: you want to not just have someone tell you the right thing you want to also understand how they got there. 22:34.198 --> 22:41.863 [SPEAKER_00]: What work did they do to become this new version of them and why are they this new version of them rather than just taking it at face value? 22:42.164 --> 22:42.605 [SPEAKER_02]: Right. 22:42.925 --> 22:46.630 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's really hard to do in early dating. 22:46.810 --> 22:49.834 [SPEAKER_02]: It takes a lot of patience and time for like people to unfold. 22:49.914 --> 22:54.280 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think a lot of daters feel like they have to pick right from the beginning. 22:54.620 --> 22:57.684 [SPEAKER_02]: My picker can be off with this one because I'm picking someone forever. 22:57.904 --> 23:05.995 [SPEAKER_02]: What would you say to daters who are just so stringent about just, I got to pick the right person from the get go? 23:06.245 --> 23:10.109 [SPEAKER_00]: It's impossible to predict what's gonna happen with another person. 23:10.390 --> 23:14.754 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, after I went through my broken engagement, I was like, but I picked right. 23:15.675 --> 23:18.939 [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, he was everything that I wanted in a partner. 23:18.999 --> 23:24.605 [SPEAKER_00]: He was so kind, he was so funny, he prioritized family, so much. 23:24.886 --> 23:28.069 [SPEAKER_00]: He was handsome, he was great with kids and dogs. 23:28.610 --> 23:33.315 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it was every single thing that I had been told to look for in a partner. 23:33.295 --> 23:48.655 [SPEAKER_00]: And also everyone in my life liked him, like my parents thought that he was a great fit for me, you know, like my sister thought he was a great fit for me, like there was no one saying actually I was an uh-uh, and then he left, right, so like 23:48.635 --> 23:55.446 [SPEAKER_00]: We can only put so much on the picking, because a lot of it is what happens after the picking. 23:55.946 --> 23:58.250 [SPEAKER_00]: And like, experiences change us. 23:58.530 --> 24:03.699 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I'm not totally convinced that if the pandemic hadn't happened, that we wouldn't have gotten married. 24:03.999 --> 24:06.303 [SPEAKER_00]: But the thing is, the pandemic did happen. 24:06.563 --> 24:08.466 [SPEAKER_00]: And therefore, we did not get married. 24:08.446 --> 24:25.425 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think like having a real acceptance mindset of like dealing with the reality of now and who this person is now rather than like expecting yourself to be able to predict who they will become and how things will go 30 years from now just sort of takes a lot of the pressure off. 24:25.405 --> 24:31.794 [SPEAKER_00]: On the cover of my book is a pair of dice in a ring box, and it really symbolizes like, it is always a role of the dice. 24:31.955 --> 24:35.320 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, you can never be sure about anybody. 24:35.600 --> 24:49.000 [SPEAKER_00]: And what's really beautiful is valuing your wants for a partner enough to take that risk because you care about yourself enough and you love yourself enough that you're going to still put yourself out there, even though it's scary. 24:48.980 --> 24:59.809 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm someone that is pro-marriage, I want to get married, but I feel like that's the piece that prevents me a little or it gives me cold feet, is this like the need for certainty, right? 24:59.849 --> 25:01.691 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think you're 100% right. 25:01.731 --> 25:03.813 [SPEAKER_01]: We cannot predict the future. 25:03.873 --> 25:07.396 [SPEAKER_01]: We cannot predict what happens 10 years down the line. 25:07.796 --> 25:11.139 [SPEAKER_01]: So you kind of have to just take that leap of faith at some point. 25:11.599 --> 25:18.025 [SPEAKER_01]: But I do think that makes people really commitment phobic because there is this fear of like 25:18.005 --> 25:23.597 [SPEAKER_01]: goes back to the fear of divorce, like because we've been told that's kind of the worst thing that can happen. 25:23.657 --> 25:32.115 [SPEAKER_01]: Like how do you start to get comfortable with these unknowns outside of what you were talking about earlier of just being like, okay, divorce can be normalized. 25:32.247 --> 25:37.672 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think a big part of it is normalizing to force and understanding that that doesn't mean that you're a failure. 25:37.872 --> 25:42.757 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that we grew up with this idea that if your marriage ends in divorce, you screwed up. 25:42.917 --> 25:43.257 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 25:43.497 --> 25:53.346 [SPEAKER_00]: And instead just viewing it as like one possible outcome for a marriage and then it would be hard and you don't want it, but like one possible outcome for a career is you get fired. 25:53.787 --> 25:54.287 [SPEAKER_00]: Like yeah. 25:54.307 --> 26:00.853 [SPEAKER_00]: And then you find another job like there's no part of life where like all the outcomes are good or what you wanted. 26:00.833 --> 26:10.536 [SPEAKER_00]: If we can remove a lot of the social stigma around divorce, then I actually think that it's easier to get married because it's not a choice between life and death. 26:10.696 --> 26:15.066 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a choice between marriage and like heartbreak, which you can handle. 26:15.086 --> 26:16.750 [SPEAKER_00]: You can get yourself through heartbreak. 26:16.730 --> 26:26.541 [SPEAKER_00]: Rather than feeling like I'm going to have a scarlet letter on me for the rest of my life, or I'm going to have ruined my life, or I'm going to suddenly be undesirable or tainted in some way. 26:27.142 --> 26:32.428 [SPEAKER_00]: If you kind of reframe the way that you view divorce, then marriage becomes less scary in a lot of ways. 26:32.829 --> 26:37.194 [SPEAKER_00]: But also, this is the thing about what we choose to work on about ourselves, right? 26:37.374 --> 26:42.400 [SPEAKER_00]: There's always stuff you're going to want to work on about yourself, and then you have to figure out what is worth it. 26:42.380 --> 26:49.635 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, and so for some people working through their fears around marriage and their fears around the fact that it could go wrong. 26:49.835 --> 26:52.541 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe at a certain point they realize like, so why do it? 26:53.042 --> 26:56.770 [SPEAKER_00]: Why not just live with my partner if my partner is okay with that? 26:56.950 --> 27:03.223 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's the real thing is you just have to find someone that wants the same relationship contract that you want. 27:03.203 --> 27:07.067 [SPEAKER_00]: And maybe neither of you want marriage, and maybe it's for totally different reasons. 27:07.167 --> 27:14.994 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe for you, it makes you feel trapped, and maybe for them, they think that it's an archaic institution that we shouldn't partake it anymore. 27:15.034 --> 27:32.670 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think just like opening yourself up to the fact that like if marriage really really triggers something in you, and it feels impossible to work through that, then you can look for a relationship that maybe won't do that. 27:32.650 --> 27:35.055 [SPEAKER_02]: not as ready to get married as you were. 27:35.095 --> 27:36.177 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 27:36.197 --> 27:38.341 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm guessing he always wanted to get married. 27:38.381 --> 27:39.864 [SPEAKER_02]: It was just a matter of when, right? 27:40.225 --> 27:46.677 [SPEAKER_02]: So how are you able to have those conversations and come to a a good compromise around it? 27:46.792 --> 27:53.625 [SPEAKER_00]: I had to understand that not everyone's brain operates the way my brain does, which is so that it's still learning to get us wrong. 27:53.645 --> 27:54.587 [SPEAKER_00]: Right? 27:54.607 --> 27:55.669 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I was so working through that. 27:55.689 --> 27:56.991 [SPEAKER_00]: What a concept. 27:57.011 --> 28:00.478 [SPEAKER_00]: Because I didn't understand where commitment phobia came from. 28:00.778 --> 28:05.307 [SPEAKER_00]: To me, commitment phobia meant that you were not sure about the person you were with. 28:05.287 --> 28:08.816 [SPEAKER_00]: and I had to realize that it has nothing to do with that for a lot of people. 28:09.036 --> 28:10.520 [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes that's what's going on. 28:11.001 --> 28:21.928 [SPEAKER_00]: But a lot of times it's more that there's a sense that if I commit fully to a relationship, I will lose myself in the relationship and I don't want to lose myself. 28:21.908 --> 28:34.042 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I don't think that's true, but I think that's a belief that some people have based on their life experiences or maybe the relationships they grew up around where it's like if I get married I lose me. 28:34.303 --> 28:39.068 [SPEAKER_00]: So then the work then becomes that person having to realize actually that's maybe not true. 28:39.349 --> 28:42.793 [SPEAKER_00]: Actually I can maintain my individuality and live in partnership. 28:42.913 --> 28:47.899 [SPEAKER_00]: I can learn how to be interdependent rather than co-dependent or completely independent. 28:47.879 --> 28:52.405 [SPEAKER_00]: And then also there are some people where it's really coming from a fear of getting hurt. 28:52.525 --> 29:02.680 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's more where my husband was coming from, where he just like, he did not want to jump into something until he felt certain that it was safe enough for him to do that. 29:02.920 --> 29:06.545 [SPEAKER_00]: And for him, the way to get to that point was time. 29:06.926 --> 29:10.090 [SPEAKER_00]: And there was no way that I was going to be able to like, 29:10.070 --> 29:11.572 [SPEAKER_00]: circumvent that. 29:11.592 --> 29:17.639 [SPEAKER_00]: I couldn't like show up and be just so lovely and adorable and so wonderful that suddenly timed in a matter. 29:18.160 --> 29:22.305 [SPEAKER_00]: Because time mattered for him and mattered for him to get to a point where he felt comfortable. 29:22.806 --> 29:28.693 [SPEAKER_00]: And so once I realized that it wasn't a me issue, it was just how he viewed relationships in general. 29:28.713 --> 29:31.757 [SPEAKER_00]: Then I was able to not take it so personally. 29:31.737 --> 29:40.785 [SPEAKER_00]: And I could say, hey, actually, the longer it takes for you, the less secure I feel, can we meet in the middle and that's basically what we ended up doing. 29:40.934 --> 29:45.620 [SPEAKER_01]: I resonated so much with that because that is like exactly what's going on for me. 29:46.121 --> 29:49.306 [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like I immediately jumped to the taking a personally. 29:49.326 --> 29:51.889 [SPEAKER_01]: This was something, yeah, I dealt with it in my daily life. 29:51.969 --> 29:54.753 [SPEAKER_01]: It's something I've dealt with my whole life that outside of my partner. 29:55.093 --> 29:56.656 [SPEAKER_01]: So how did you like get there? 29:56.676 --> 29:58.739 [SPEAKER_01]: Because I think that's like the logical side. 29:58.779 --> 29:59.820 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, I see that. 29:59.940 --> 30:00.641 [SPEAKER_01]: I hear that. 30:00.942 --> 30:03.185 [SPEAKER_01]: But sometimes those thoughts just creep in. 30:03.405 --> 30:05.288 [SPEAKER_01]: Like how do you get those thoughts out? 30:05.348 --> 30:07.110 [SPEAKER_01]: Because I think a lot of us go there. 30:07.175 --> 30:09.959 [SPEAKER_00]: That's really about your relationship with yourself, right? 30:10.059 --> 30:14.746 [SPEAKER_00]: So when I didn't like myself, it was very easy for me to say, well, they don't like me either. 30:15.027 --> 30:17.711 [SPEAKER_00]: Or like, I am unlovable, so of course they're not committing to me. 30:17.871 --> 30:23.219 [SPEAKER_00]: But once I became more secure in myself, then suddenly, I mean, it sounds ridiculous. 30:23.279 --> 30:24.400 [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, well, I'm great. 30:24.561 --> 30:26.604 [SPEAKER_00]: So why wouldn't you want to marry me? 30:27.425 --> 30:36.979 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I was able to just sort of get to a place where I liked myself enough that I was able to see that that was possible that it didn't have to be me because I'm not the problem here. 30:36.959 --> 30:50.431 [SPEAKER_00]: It's kind of weird, but the more it's a cure you become in yourself, the less shaken you are by other people and how they behave in relationship to you because you are more of a secure base. 30:50.912 --> 31:05.025 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think that by working on myself a scene and by working on how I talked to myself and how I thought about myself, I could get to a place where I felt if this person actually never gets there, that doesn't mean that I'm unlovable, right? 31:05.005 --> 31:14.317 [SPEAKER_00]: This one person's reaction to me and what they want for their life and my role in it does not define my overall worth because I define that. 31:14.598 --> 31:17.521 [SPEAKER_02]: What are your thoughts on ultimatums then? 31:17.942 --> 31:18.943 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm pro ultimatum. 31:19.244 --> 31:19.704 [SPEAKER_00]: Do tell. 31:19.764 --> 31:26.473 [SPEAKER_00]: That's kind of a wild thing because I don't necessarily view it as like, I think sometimes people view ultimatums as like manipulative and I think that they can't be even 31:26.453 --> 31:30.918 [SPEAKER_00]: But I also think it is totally valid and this is sort of what I said to my husband. 31:30.958 --> 31:40.849 [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, look, I won't move in together, but I don't want to move in together for not engaged within the year of living together, because for me, I really prioritized marriage. 31:40.889 --> 31:42.110 [SPEAKER_00]: That's something that I want. 31:42.451 --> 31:46.715 [SPEAKER_00]: I had not wanted to move in together until we were engaged, but you want that. 31:46.936 --> 31:50.500 [SPEAKER_00]: And therefore I shall do that, but this is my part of the bargain. 31:50.520 --> 31:52.782 [SPEAKER_00]: And so the ultimate of them doesn't become 31:52.762 --> 31:56.428 [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, you promised you better propose buddy or you're going to jail. 31:57.009 --> 32:03.419 [SPEAKER_00]: It then becomes a deal with myself where if he then hadn't proposed in that year, then I leave, right? 32:03.439 --> 32:09.268 [SPEAKER_00]: It's really about your decisions and then telling your partner your plan. 32:09.248 --> 32:25.698 [SPEAKER_00]: Right, saying this is what I need and if you don't want to give me that that I'm going to just remove myself from this relationship and I think that like that's totally valid and I honestly It's important sometimes for your partner to know you feel that way because otherwise what if I had just made that deal with myself? 32:25.938 --> 32:29.645 [SPEAKER_00]: I never told him and then suddenly I'm leaving like day 366, you know. 32:29.665 --> 32:32.210 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, he has no idea. 32:32.510 --> 32:33.552 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, he has no idea 32:33.532 --> 32:47.089 [SPEAKER_01]: I definitely have the same conversation with my partner, moving in, and I think there is what was hard is stating your own needs and honoring them, but then also acknowledging someone else's needs and what's going on for them. 32:47.129 --> 32:50.173 [SPEAKER_01]: It's easy to just be like, oh, we're just not compatible. 32:50.193 --> 33:00.265 [SPEAKER_01]: We're not moving at the exact same speed, but I'm guessing from your scenario, you're probably glad that you gave it a little extra 33:00.245 --> 33:04.659 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, when you're happily buried for all the years, you're not going to remember that extra couple months. 33:05.161 --> 33:11.622 [SPEAKER_01]: So how do you like balance the two of, you know, honoring yourself, but also there is another person here. 33:11.753 --> 33:14.418 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's making sure you have the same end goal, right? 33:14.518 --> 33:18.866 [SPEAKER_00]: Because if I'm moving in with someone, and they're not even sure if they want to get married, that's tricky. 33:19.147 --> 33:22.613 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's a lot of ground to get through in one year, right? 33:22.734 --> 33:25.459 [SPEAKER_00]: But if you're moving in with someone who says, I absolutely want to get married. 33:25.699 --> 33:27.282 [SPEAKER_00]: And I know I want to get married to you. 33:27.342 --> 33:33.694 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just not ready to do that yet, because I actually want this to have some time, just living together and enjoying that phase. 33:33.674 --> 33:40.284 [SPEAKER_00]: And just seeing how we live together, and you know what I mean, and so I think it's really like do we have the same vision for the future? 33:40.344 --> 33:43.168 [SPEAKER_00]: And is our speed to get to that future? 33:43.549 --> 33:50.779 [SPEAKER_00]: Just a little different versus are we heading in totally different directions and therefore good luck to us? 33:50.799 --> 34:00.694 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah So if your partners just like I don't ever want to get married like is a doomed or do you think there is a way to have to bridge that gap when someone's so extreme? 34:00.674 --> 34:06.341 [SPEAKER_00]: If your partner says to you, I don't ever want to get married, then I think you have to say am I okay never getting married. 34:06.722 --> 34:09.485 [SPEAKER_00]: And if your answer is, yeah, then great. 34:09.705 --> 34:10.887 [SPEAKER_00]: You solve that problem. 34:11.227 --> 34:13.951 [SPEAKER_00]: But if your answer is, no, I want to get married. 34:14.311 --> 34:15.813 [SPEAKER_00]: That tells you what you need to know. 34:15.853 --> 34:20.198 [SPEAKER_02]: Do you find that even in that conversation and in the research you've done? 34:20.419 --> 34:24.724 [SPEAKER_02]: Do you find that people have different definitions of what a marriage means to them? 34:24.805 --> 34:32.698 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, one couple I interviewed, you know, she really wanted to get married and he was at no interest in proposing even though they'd been together for a long time. 34:33.279 --> 34:39.148 [SPEAKER_00]: And it came out, I think during couples therapy that he thought that if they got married then they would immediately have to have kids. 34:39.368 --> 34:40.350 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, cause to him. 34:40.330 --> 35:05.595 [SPEAKER_00]: Getting married meant children and he was pretty young and not interested in having kids like he didn't feel ready for that But she was like, no, no, no, like I want to have kids eventually, but getting married doesn't mean we have kids tomorrow Like that to me is more just about our union and our commitment as a couple and so then he was like, oh and suddenly it was more easy and accessible for him to get married Because his whole world wasn't gonna turn around and he wasn't gonna be a dad like the next day 35:05.575 --> 35:17.397 [SPEAKER_00]: And so they didn't even know that about each other and they'd been together for a really long time And so that's why having these like really explicit conversations of like what appeals to you about this What does it appeal to you about this? 35:17.697 --> 35:19.541 [SPEAKER_00]: How do you think it will change our relationship? 35:19.701 --> 35:23.027 [SPEAKER_00]: Will it change our relationship like just getting in the weeds? 35:23.247 --> 35:24.630 [SPEAKER_00]: I think is really crucial 35:24.610 --> 35:37.128 [SPEAKER_01]: I was definitely reading your book like while I was at a spa with my partner and I was like we need to go through your questions at the end because they aren't really good and it's like you think you know the answers but you don't ask that explicitly. 35:37.328 --> 35:40.573 [SPEAKER_01]: What else should you think about when you're deciding to get married? 35:40.613 --> 35:42.636 [SPEAKER_01]: Like what other things should you consider? 35:42.818 --> 35:49.146 [SPEAKER_00]: I would kind of ask your partner if you were deeply unhappy if we were no longer in love or happy. 35:49.166 --> 35:51.490 [SPEAKER_00]: What would we do, right? 35:51.870 --> 35:54.373 [SPEAKER_00]: Would you be willing to go to couples therapy? 35:54.694 --> 35:56.256 [SPEAKER_00]: Would you be willing to get divorced? 35:56.456 --> 36:00.882 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, even just understanding, like, are you open to the idea of divorce? 36:00.922 --> 36:02.664 [SPEAKER_00]: Just like kind of a weird question. 36:02.745 --> 36:05.408 [SPEAKER_00]: But some people are like, no, marriage is for life. 36:05.668 --> 36:09.113 [SPEAKER_00]: Even if I'm miserable and your miserable we hate each other. 36:09.093 --> 36:11.095 [SPEAKER_00]: You have to stay together, you know? 36:11.115 --> 36:12.456 [SPEAKER_00]: And so you want to know that. 36:12.576 --> 36:17.040 [SPEAKER_00]: If that's your partner's opinion about marriage because then you're going to be stuck in a marriage that stinks. 36:17.260 --> 36:24.567 [SPEAKER_00]: But if you're like, do you view marriage as something that, like, if it is no longer working, then it would make sense for us to get divorced. 36:24.587 --> 36:26.108 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, are you comfortable with that? 36:26.189 --> 36:27.790 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, that can reveal a lot. 36:27.890 --> 36:30.412 [SPEAKER_00]: Also, like, their views around couples therapy. 36:30.753 --> 36:37.699 [SPEAKER_00]: I think, like, what are their views around, like, taking care of elderly parents, 36:37.679 --> 36:44.228 [SPEAKER_00]: children, what do they think that the division of labor will be in the home, especially if you end up having children? 36:44.529 --> 36:47.914 [SPEAKER_00]: Do they plan to emulate the marriage of their parents? 36:48.134 --> 36:49.055 [SPEAKER_00]: Why or why not? 36:49.476 --> 36:54.683 [SPEAKER_00]: What would they want to keep from their parents' marriage if their parents were married versus what would they want to change? 36:54.843 --> 37:07.281 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that that can be a way to really get into specifics rather than just like come up with it out of the blue as to like talk about someone else's marriage that you both know intimately and see what you like about it and what you don't like about it. 37:07.261 --> 37:08.182 [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm. 37:08.202 --> 37:09.804 [SPEAKER_01]: I love all those questions. 37:09.884 --> 37:12.687 [SPEAKER_01]: I think they're really great way to get the convo go. 37:12.707 --> 37:27.024 [SPEAKER_02]: I Such a brilliant way to just bring out such honesty around a topic that we don't really discuss It's like you just get married and then you think things work out and it's also important to know What is the model of marriage that they've grown up with? 37:27.264 --> 37:31.429 [SPEAKER_02]: I had this conversation with a friend of mine who every time I say marriage She'll go 37:31.409 --> 37:51.072 [SPEAKER_02]: she'll like throw up for her mouth and I asked her finally like what is it about marriage that aches you so much and she said when I think of marriage I think of no sex I think of everybody getting ugly I think of two people just sitting on the couch and watching TV because that's what she grew up with with her parents. 37:51.052 --> 37:51.973 [SPEAKER_02]: who were just it. 37:52.273 --> 37:56.378 [SPEAKER_02]: So of course, marriage has that association for her, but exactly. 37:56.478 --> 38:01.824 [SPEAKER_02]: For her to see a different side of marriage is probably more important than trying to convince her of marriage. 38:02.124 --> 38:03.966 [SPEAKER_00]: And honestly, maybe it's too tainted. 38:04.447 --> 38:10.814 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, maybe it just isn't, and maybe she's not willing to unpack that or are not interested in unpacking that. 38:11.214 --> 38:13.937 [SPEAKER_00]: And so then maybe she's not someone that we're marriage makes sense for her. 38:13.917 --> 38:20.752 [SPEAKER_01]: I think one thing that always cubs up is just how judgemental we are on couples timelines. 38:21.293 --> 38:27.646 [SPEAKER_01]: Like they either go against too quickly or it's taking too long and something's wrong with that. 38:27.686 --> 38:32.196 [SPEAKER_01]: And then you have like love is blind where you get engaged after like what six weeks. 38:32.176 --> 38:42.675 [SPEAKER_01]: Today, so tomorrow, well, yes, technically two days, but then you have six weeks to be in person, which is still crazy, right? 38:42.795 --> 38:45.159 [SPEAKER_01]: But like, that's what's shown to us on TV. 38:45.199 --> 38:47.564 [SPEAKER_01]: That's like, when you know, you know, it's it's it. 38:47.584 --> 38:55.618 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, how do you propose that we get out of our head about timelines and like, stop being so judgmental of everyone's? 38:55.666 --> 39:01.573 [SPEAKER_00]: I think the reason we're so judgmental is because it's something we can know about a couple, right? 39:01.713 --> 39:05.757 [SPEAKER_00]: Because so much of another couple's experience is a mystery to us. 39:05.777 --> 39:07.359 [SPEAKER_00]: We don't know what they're like when they're alone. 39:07.760 --> 39:09.422 [SPEAKER_00]: We don't know who loves who more. 39:09.442 --> 39:14.067 [SPEAKER_00]: We don't know, like, if they're happy, like, we don't really know what is going on there. 39:14.367 --> 39:16.750 [SPEAKER_00]: But what we do know is how long have they not each other? 39:16.930 --> 39:18.071 [SPEAKER_00]: When did they get engaged? 39:18.171 --> 39:19.313 [SPEAKER_00]: How long does he engage? 39:19.333 --> 39:23.057 [SPEAKER_00]: We're like, these are like tangible things that we can be like, aha, that was the problem. 39:23.037 --> 39:30.931 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that like understanding that a lot of the times that we're judging other couples it's so that we can say that we are not going to make that mistake. 39:31.171 --> 39:39.966 [SPEAKER_00]: It kind of like comes from a fear of like, well, if they got married after six months and then they got divorced, I just won't get married after six months and then I'll be safe. 39:39.946 --> 39:47.498 [SPEAKER_00]: And so kind of just accepting that every relationship follows its own journey and timeline and that there is no secret sauce. 39:47.818 --> 39:53.647 [SPEAKER_00]: There are people out there that like some military couples don't know each other very long, but one of them is going to ship off. 39:53.748 --> 39:59.777 [SPEAKER_00]: And so they have to get married to be able to go with their partner wherever they're about to be stationed. 39:59.757 --> 40:04.364 [SPEAKER_00]: There are also couples that like are together 10 years get married and get divorced within a year. 40:04.424 --> 40:05.485 [SPEAKER_00]: What was that about? 40:05.726 --> 40:08.209 [SPEAKER_00]: Could it tell you that's their for life? 40:08.230 --> 40:10.813 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like there is no magic number. 40:11.074 --> 40:14.339 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that we really, really want there to be one. 40:14.359 --> 40:22.270 [SPEAKER_00]: But this whole thing, this whole way that we can get more comfortable with marriage, is by getting more comfortable with the discomfort of marriage. 40:22.571 --> 40:25.495 [SPEAKER_00]: And the fact that like we don't know what will happen. 40:25.475 --> 40:34.167 [SPEAKER_00]: I do think that the younger you are the more time can matter because you are going to change and grow a lot. 40:34.687 --> 40:51.550 [SPEAKER_00]: I also feel like if you meet at 45 and you both have a lot of life experience and you realize you want the same things and engagement after six months isn't that wild to me because it kind of makes sense like you probably know what you're looking for and you figured out this is what I was looking for. 40:51.530 --> 40:57.698 [SPEAKER_00]: So I almost feel like age has more to do with it potentially than the length of the relationship. 40:57.878 --> 41:03.405 [SPEAKER_02]: I kind of wish that I had gotten married in my early 20s because I was naive. 41:03.786 --> 41:13.258 [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like having a wedding, saying your bow's, and believing in death do as a part, is kind of a beautiful thing that I will never experience again. 41:13.658 --> 41:21.148 [SPEAKER_02]: But I kind of, like, I'm really a love for the idea of like really just one of those like blinders on kind of marriage. 41:21.128 --> 41:27.134 [SPEAKER_02]: And then maybe you get divorced later, but it's great to have that moment where you truly believe it or it's a splice. 41:27.154 --> 41:27.374 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 41:27.734 --> 41:32.599 [SPEAKER_00]: Isn't it also beautiful to not have those blenders on and it's just still take that leap with someone? 41:32.699 --> 41:33.500 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yes. 41:33.560 --> 41:34.641 [SPEAKER_00]: It kind of means more. 41:34.661 --> 41:35.262 [SPEAKER_00]: I like that. 41:35.282 --> 41:36.883 [SPEAKER_02]: But that's why we do it twice. 41:36.943 --> 41:44.731 [SPEAKER_02]: I believe having two marriages, like you have your anger marriage that lasts like 10 years with these fears. 41:44.791 --> 41:46.713 [SPEAKER_02]: And then you have your real one, you know? 41:46.913 --> 41:49.836 [SPEAKER_01]: Like that's your person to swad. 41:49.816 --> 42:00.891 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the starter marriage and then you train you or maybe if we have a third marriage, the longer we live, the more phases of these marriages will have, maybe it's just with the same partner. 42:01.112 --> 42:07.080 [SPEAKER_02]: And most likely it's not, but it's kind of beautiful that we can have the years marriages in different phases of our lives. 42:07.260 --> 42:07.841 [SPEAKER_01]: I love that. 42:07.961 --> 42:09.243 [SPEAKER_01]: I think I'm curious. 42:09.343 --> 42:14.530 [SPEAKER_01]: Like what your biggest surprise that you've learned being married. 42:14.971 --> 42:17.815 [SPEAKER_00]: It's really annoying that we don't 42:17.795 --> 42:26.250 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, it's just like complicated like to do things like we went to get our vaccines and like it had to be like I'm John Blake's Lee I'm Allison Raskin. 42:26.290 --> 42:30.277 [SPEAKER_00]: We're married, but like we were maybe on the same reservation, but it wasn't clear. 42:30.317 --> 42:31.099 [SPEAKER_00]: We had different. 42:31.119 --> 42:37.249 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's just like annoying to not have the same last name, but also no fucking way am I changing my last name. 42:37.390 --> 42:39.313 [SPEAKER_02]: Why is that what's your reason behind that? 42:39.293 --> 42:42.718 [SPEAKER_00]: I have established myself as Alice and Raskin. 42:42.758 --> 42:46.363 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I have a lot of attachment to Alice and Raskin. 42:46.383 --> 42:54.135 [SPEAKER_00]: The person in Alice and Raskin, the brand, I'm also incredibly close with my family, carrying on their name, having the same last name as my parents. 42:54.335 --> 42:56.598 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a Jewish name, I like that. 42:56.679 --> 43:00.644 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, if I became Alice and Blakely, I would sound like I was an aristocrat. 43:01.325 --> 43:04.851 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, like, it was just like sipping martinis at the Country Club. 43:04.891 --> 43:06.533 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it was so awesome. 43:06.513 --> 43:07.895 [SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't feel like me. 43:07.935 --> 43:26.158 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know who that person is, but it is just like in day-to-day life It is like kind of annoying to like have different lessons And then I guess on the flip side like what's something that you maybe built up that you thought would be really scary about marriage That really just hasn't proven to be an issue in the slightest 43:26.408 --> 43:34.643 [SPEAKER_00]: I guess you know what it is, is honestly in this last year, our first year of marriage has been horrible, but not because of our relationship. 43:34.883 --> 43:44.400 [SPEAKER_00]: He had a major career let down where he's now having to sort of reassess his entire identity and his life and his path and 43:44.380 --> 43:50.389 [SPEAKER_00]: who he is and what his future will look like, kind of just like worst case, heartbreak and grief for him. 43:50.649 --> 43:56.097 [SPEAKER_00]: My mom is dying and so we kind of got thrown into the fire together. 43:56.137 --> 44:07.975 [SPEAKER_00]: And so what's been wonderful is that marriage is all it's cracked up to be that like we have helped each other through these nightmare scenarios, like our worst case. 44:07.955 --> 44:18.365 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, truly our worst case scenarios and that if we didn't have each other they would have been probably unmanageable but with each other we are we are getting through it. 44:18.385 --> 44:20.631 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my god, you have me like tearing up over here 44:20.982 --> 44:27.928 [SPEAKER_02]: Also, just like, I think this is the, what's the pro of marriage that argument for marriage is exactly. 44:28.328 --> 44:34.254 [SPEAKER_02]: If you had a best friend that you still would need to enlist his or her help and say, can you help me through this? 44:34.614 --> 44:40.659 [SPEAKER_02]: But when you're married, it's like your family, so of course you're going to be together as one unit, right? 44:40.759 --> 44:42.261 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we're living in New York right now. 44:42.501 --> 44:43.081 [SPEAKER_00]: He came out. 44:43.201 --> 44:44.322 [SPEAKER_00]: He's been out here for weeks. 44:44.603 --> 44:50.888 [SPEAKER_00]: He's going to have to go back 44:50.868 --> 44:54.919 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's not a burden, it's what it means to be married. 44:55.401 --> 44:57.306 [SPEAKER_00]: And these are understanding of marriage. 44:57.547 --> 45:00.555 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm very lucky that we have the same understanding of marriage. 45:00.575 --> 45:04.667 [SPEAKER_00]: And that it wasn't really even a question that that's how he would show up for me during this time. 45:04.927 --> 45:05.890 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think that... 45:05.870 --> 45:35.556 [SPEAKER_01]: is a takeaway though of this whole thing is like ultimately there is so many reasons why marriage is irrelevant why we don't need it but at the end of the day that is the love that we're looking for and yes of course you can have that when you're not married I want to say it's not possible but like you've alluded to in many reasons of this and makes it heck of a lot easier and more natural sometimes and I think like one of the reasons I know I want to get married is 45:35.536 --> 45:37.079 [SPEAKER_01]: in a family together. 45:37.359 --> 45:41.988 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like that you're like entwined in your, you're like a true partner at life. 45:42.028 --> 45:46.576 [SPEAKER_01]: Like even though you feel like your partner is your partner, I think it is that next level. 45:46.816 --> 45:51.705 [SPEAKER_00]: And some people don't need that to get to that next level, but some of us do, and that's okay. 45:51.685 --> 46:19.640 [SPEAKER_01]: I think like what you were saying earlier is it's kind of romantic in a different sense that we have all these options We still can choose to do this that's something that's a little more traditional and like I think I personally Like have done a lot of things that aren't as traditional up to now But there is something of nice of having like some traditions preserved and Deciding which traditions you want and being a control of it. 46:19.740 --> 46:21.102 [SPEAKER_01]: I think of the past 46:21.082 --> 46:50.970 [SPEAKER_01]: marriage was problematic because it was something that you just did and you had no choice and especially as women we were financially like bound to this person and I love the world that we're in now that we can still do the thing we can have that like partnership and life bond but do it in a way that you know makes us still an individual at the end of the day too so instead of looking at like all the challenges it's always good to look at like what we're 46:51.001 --> 46:51.902 [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely. 46:52.263 --> 46:55.247 [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, there is power in ritual. 46:55.528 --> 47:04.200 [SPEAKER_00]: There's a reason that as humans we like ritual and we like ceremony and we like attacking meaning to things and telling ourselves the story of our lives. 47:04.701 --> 47:13.414 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm learning that pre-nups are wonderful, especially if you live in a state that's not so fair with divorces. 47:13.850 --> 47:25.570 [SPEAKER_02]: but it is good to have a conversation about the potential end in any relationship because it we can't put these rose-colored glasses on and say we're never going to break up. 47:25.910 --> 47:30.839 [SPEAKER_02]: It's good to talk about what the ending could look like and what would lead up to the ending. 47:31.039 --> 47:32.922 [SPEAKER_02]: But my biggest 47:32.902 --> 47:35.828 [SPEAKER_02]: Marriage is such an individual thing. 47:35.968 --> 47:47.590 [SPEAKER_02]: You have to figure out what works for you and I feel like many of us spend so much of our time trying to convince other people that marriage is right or marriage is wrong. 47:48.071 --> 47:48.893 [SPEAKER_02]: Who cares? 47:48.933 --> 47:51.197 [SPEAKER_02]: You're not marrying all these people? 47:51.177 --> 47:53.260 [SPEAKER_02]: you just need to figure out what's right for you. 47:53.300 --> 47:55.443 [SPEAKER_02]: It's not your job to convince other people. 47:55.543 --> 47:56.404 [SPEAKER_02]: It's right for you. 47:56.664 --> 47:58.426 [SPEAKER_02]: You know what's the best for you. 47:58.446 --> 48:00.950 [SPEAKER_02]: And ultimately, that is the North Star. 48:01.190 --> 48:04.414 [SPEAKER_02]: Is what kind of relationship do I want to have? 48:04.514 --> 48:05.936 [SPEAKER_02]: That serves me best. 48:06.136 --> 48:08.780 [SPEAKER_02]: That works best for me and me only. 48:08.860 --> 48:10.542 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, me and my partner only. 48:10.562 --> 48:13.566 [SPEAKER_02]: However, people want to do their relationships. 48:13.706 --> 48:17.010 [SPEAKER_02]: Good for them because they figure out a way to do it themselves. 48:17.371 --> 48:19.834 [SPEAKER_02]: Let's just get this debate of marriage. 48:19.814 --> 48:20.655 [SPEAKER_02]: out of the way. 48:20.795 --> 48:23.439 [SPEAKER_02]: It's just so counterproductive. 48:23.679 --> 48:24.661 [SPEAKER_02]: Just you do you. 48:24.781 --> 48:25.762 [SPEAKER_02]: Figure out what's right for you. 48:25.802 --> 48:26.443 [SPEAKER_01]: Love that. 48:26.844 --> 48:28.266 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm holding your book right now. 48:28.566 --> 48:33.173 [SPEAKER_02]: If people want to get their hands on your book, I do, I think where can they find it? 48:33.453 --> 48:35.296 [SPEAKER_00]: Pretty much anywhere books are sold. 48:35.376 --> 48:36.878 [SPEAKER_00]: It comes out October 15th. 48:36.918 --> 48:45.089 [SPEAKER_00]: You can also get the audible version where I narrated it and it should be available on Kindle Hardcover kind of anywhere where you can get a book. 48:45.390 --> 48:45.730 [SPEAKER_01]: Awesome. 48:45.750 --> 48:47.813 [SPEAKER_01]: It will link it in the 48:47.911 --> 48:49.297 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much! 48:49.317 --> 48:55.484 [SPEAKER_02]: And if you haven't done so yet, subscribe to the Psychology of Relationships today, so you don't miss an episode. 48:56.488 --> 48:57.010 [SPEAKER_01]: Bye!