[SPEAKER_03]: I'm Julie Kraftcheck, and I'm U.A.
[SPEAKER_03]: Xu.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is the psychology of relationships.
[SPEAKER_01]: Love can feel intoxicating at the beginning.
[SPEAKER_01]: Constant attention, big gestures, nonstop affection.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when it feels that good, the last thing anyone wants to ask is whether it's actually healthy.
[SPEAKER_01]: But when does romance cross the line in to manipulation?
[SPEAKER_01]: In this episode, we're joined by Dr. Diane Storkowski, relationship expert and licensed psychologists, to break down what love bombing really is, and how to tell the difference between genuine interest in narcissistic behavior, guys, as grand gestures.
[SPEAKER_01]: We unpack the early warning signs people often miss how attachment style can make certain dynamics feel especially magnetic and why love bombing isn't always louder obvious.
[SPEAKER_01]: This conversation helps you learn how to stay open without being naive, how to pace connection without shutting down chemistry and how to trust your instincts without sliding into skepticism.
[SPEAKER_01]: because real intimacy isn't about intensity.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's about consistency, safety, and mutual respect over time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Remember to subscribe to the Psychology of Relationships on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you listen.
[SPEAKER_01]: And leave a rating.
[SPEAKER_01]: Five stars, please.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're getting a lot of value out of the show.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the Psychology of Relationships and you're listening to an episode that just might change the way you show up for love.
[SPEAKER_01]: Enjoy!
[SPEAKER_03]: We're talking about love bombing.
[SPEAKER_03]: What is love bombing?
[SPEAKER_03]: Do you love using this term?
[SPEAKER_01]: I have something on it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I have experienced this myself, so definitely excited to get into it with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think the official definition that at least we found online about love bombing is the practice of shower a person with excessive affection.
[SPEAKER_01]: and attention in order to gain control or significantly influence their behavior.
[SPEAKER_01]: What separates love bombing from just regular honey moon feelings is an abrupt switch.
[SPEAKER_01]: One moment they may be idealizing their partner and the next they'll cut them down in size and effort to control them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oops.
[SPEAKER_01]: So do you have any additional thoughts all that definition before we get really get into it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, let's talk love bombing.
[SPEAKER_00]: People think love bombing is oftentimes gifts, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: I have a perfect example, and we didn't have the term love bombing back when I was dating, but I had met this guy, met him at, you know, a Sunday afternoon brunch, liked him, but oh yeah, I would go out with him again.
[SPEAKER_00]: We, he was going out of town, so he said, you know, I'll be in touch and I'm like, okay, so I go to my office the next day.
[SPEAKER_00]: mind you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't give him my address or anything, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And there are two dozen roses.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, oh, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm like, that's nice, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the next day, I go to my office, two more dozen roses.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Day three, two more dozen roses.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, of course, I have to then like text him back and like thank him.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I didn't know I was being loved by him.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you think your girlfriend's like, oh my god, that's so romantic, he must really like you.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I say, watch it because those roses come with horns.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you don't realize that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this was a guy who I call more like a covert narcissist.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a difference between the overt guy who's like really showy versus like this was a dad, a nice dad, but like,
[SPEAKER_00]: a dad, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: He had two kids because I was older, dating, and now all of a sudden we're in a relationship.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I didn't realize that I'd been love-bombed, and I felt like I was just being a nice person, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Responding to this gracious gift, not realizing what was underneath it, and who he was as the person who was love-bombing me.
[SPEAKER_00]: and love bombing can either come at the beginning with lots of gifts, a lot of anxious attachment, you know, approve of me, or it can come later.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I get lots of clients who, especially if there's a rift in the relationship, then suddenly the love bombing comes as a way to re-engage to get this person reconnected with you, but you have to be careful because the
[SPEAKER_00]: Those roses had nothing to do with me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I could have been allergic to roses.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: He didn't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: He didn't know who you are.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, didn't know who I was.
[SPEAKER_00]: Did I like roses?
[SPEAKER_00]: Did I not?
[SPEAKER_00]: But the point of the behavior is what's underneath, which is usually an insecure person, does not want to feel anxious while they're waiting for you to approve of them.
[SPEAKER_00]: So they have to up and amplify the volume to get you to agree to them, so they don't have to look at their own stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I want to be careful here because just because someone gets you two dozen roses does not mean that they're love bombing you.
[SPEAKER_03]: So where do we draw the line and say this is an act of love bombing versus someone who truly cares about me and wants to make me happy?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, so much of that U.A.
[SPEAKER_00]: is timing, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So in a normal relationship, if the guy knew me and was sending me two dozen roses because I was going through something, that would be different.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not the gift itself.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, what is the hook?
[SPEAKER_00]: Why lead with that?
[SPEAKER_00]: a secure functioning man would not have to do that, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you have to look at what is behind this behavior?
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's not like the two dozen roses is the definitive love bomb.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's what is the intention behind the behavior?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's why it's very nuanced, you have to look carefully at what is what is the meaning of this and then what is it bringing about me right what is my emotional response to these roses and then before you know it okay now I'm with this guy because I'm a nice person I've my own anxious attachment style.
[SPEAKER_00]: and I get kind of hooked by this and then he's giving me other things and lavishing me with like trips and then all of a sudden he's out of town and I'm watching his children and driving them to school and now I'm like the name shit and exactly shit I'm like what
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, did I sign up for this?
[SPEAKER_00]: But like, suddenly, it's because this man was a covert narcissist.
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, I didn't know any of this.
[SPEAKER_00]: And by the way, I'm a psychologist.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I should have known, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I'm embarrassed.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is the man I dated before my husband.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I finally figured out like, no more.
[SPEAKER_00]: I kind of had a sense of what the hell happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I had no idea this was happening to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I have to tell people about it because it can happen to anyone.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that is exactly what I was trying to say earlier, but you said it much more elegantly.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, that that I thought I was above it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just thought because I do a podcast, like, I would be able to catch the signs.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I also, for whatever reason, interpret it as like highly manipulative, like someone like making you do things for them, where I think the expansion of this is that, like sometimes it's to gain control.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that could just be to like get validation that you like them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like it doesn't need to be,
[SPEAKER_01]: a crazy control level.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, yours with the kids is seems like a little more controlling, but like, I had an experience over, you know, it was a virtue.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was away.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I couldn't me because person in real life.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was just like laying it on so thick.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I've ever texted you a being like, I think I met like my person.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I had never met this guy.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, saying that out loud now is so crazy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I can't believe like the thought even went in my mind.
[SPEAKER_01]: But as soon as he was like, as soon as he knew like saw that like I had interest, he seemed to back away.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like there was some love bombing like, I don't want to like toss, I don't know, I'll get your opinion.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I don't want to toss the word around loosely if you don't feel like that is.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I did feel like there was some like not overt manipulation, but like some like validation maybe is a better way to say it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it wasn't just that he came on with too much affection or tell me more, what was the behavior?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it was just like life plan.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like that like life plan, like we're getting married but just like all these future plans that like didn't pan out, basically.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like a future faker is what we've called it before.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I have to tell you, I have stories about this.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have clients where a woman was just one of my clients recently dating this guy and literally I had and talked with her for a while so I didn't know it got to this point and they were going to loop.
[SPEAKER_00]: Get married.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then talk about a faker.
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, insecure people will fake good or start talking about a future that they can't deliver on.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then when it got to that point, he completely goes to her.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, she was devastated.
[SPEAKER_00]: She was gonna, you know, run away with this guy.
[SPEAKER_01]: So is that love bombing?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like is that part of the definition or is that like another offshoot of love?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so technically the word love bombing is again an exaggerated sense.
[SPEAKER_00]: But if we look at where who is the person who's doing the love bombing?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like what's underneath the behavior?
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm an insecure person who worries that I'm not enough.
[SPEAKER_00]: right, that I have to give you more.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have to give you more of a story.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have to paint a rosy picture.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm aware that maybe other people in the world have more to offer, like the southern man who did this to my client, didn't have a lot of money.
[SPEAKER_00]: She did.
[SPEAKER_00]: So he felt intimidated by that.
[SPEAKER_00]: So he paints this picture that he can't follow up on.
[SPEAKER_00]: or my guy didn't want to come out and say, hadn't really need help sort of like raising my kids, but you know, gave me all these other things that you go along with the package and now you're in a relationship with them.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you just think it's like an exchange for what you're getting.
[SPEAKER_00]: But you didn't realize that at the beginning, it was manipulative.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the part, it's the manipulation.
[SPEAKER_00]: Why the lie?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because a secure functioning person wouldn't lead with something that they couldn't
[SPEAKER_03]: So does that mean we have to be skeptical of everyone's side actions, I mean now I know like why is why is this guy being so nice to me?
[SPEAKER_03]: Are you love about me?
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you future faking me or are you just being normal?
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't even know anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't want to be in a skeptical state.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know again it's back to how this person is making you feel.
[SPEAKER_00]: So here's the thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: When we're in love right falling in love is like a drug right and it takes over and you
[SPEAKER_00]: situation where all you can do is like fantasize about this person.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the normal love drug.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the person should be able to contain it enough.
[SPEAKER_00]: Why are they going so overboard?
[SPEAKER_00]: So just think about what is normal.
[SPEAKER_00]: Normal would be it's your birthday.
[SPEAKER_00]: I do something for you.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have an anniversary.
[SPEAKER_00]: We celebrate together.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know you love chocolate.
[SPEAKER_00]: I buy you chocolate.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've heard extreme examples of love bombing and let's put it in that category where people are, you know, I knew a man who bought a woman like 13 purses, like designer purses.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then often times, remember the hook is something like, oh, well, you don't like my purses?
[SPEAKER_00]: What is this, is this too good for you?
[SPEAKER_00]: There's the hint of the manipulation.
[SPEAKER_00]: So again, it's not just the gift.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's what is the gift hooked to?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what you have to ask yourself.
[SPEAKER_00]: You have to say, what is this, why so much?
[SPEAKER_00]: And what is it that they want as a result of that?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because oftentimes, there's two types of people who love them.
[SPEAKER_00]: The narcissist who oftentimes are the avoidant attachment style person who doesn't know how to really be vulnerable and be close.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so they have to, again, underneath don't feel good enough, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Didn't get that from their parents feeling like a secure enough person.
[SPEAKER_00]: So they're gonna overdo it with something.
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, gifts, attention.
[SPEAKER_00]: Then there's the anxiously attached person.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it depends on also why it's so hard to just define love bombing.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's also who you are, okay?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because if you're an avoidant person yourself, I would call you like independent isabel.
[SPEAKER_00]: And a guy comes on even like normal.
[SPEAKER_00]: You might feel like it's too much, to intense.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you could define it as love bombing when someone else just thinks it's sweet behavior.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you see, this is why it's so nuanced because it's who I am, but then also who the other person is and how am I defining that.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I have some, again, I just call them independent Isabelle types, more the avoidant person who didn't grow up with a lot of love and affection and attention.
[SPEAKER_00]: And a guy who comes on more emotional, more needy, she's like, oh my god, this is too much.
[SPEAKER_00]: She might define that as love bombing when it's just really the person wanting to connect.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that, yeah, I think that's like the two examples that we gave, like the one I gave, it wasn't, like, manipulation.
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: It almost felt like it was just too fast, too soon, because my gut was that there was, like, an, like, a void in a Tatrim, but maybe it was an anxious attachment, now that we're like unpacking it.
[SPEAKER_01]: My initial thought was it was avoidant because it was like, once it became real or once it became whatever, that's when they, like, bailed a bit, but yeah, I mean, I guess, like,
[SPEAKER_01]: A question for you, I feel like narcissists, that word gets thrown around a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like he's like, college has loved that word.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like everyone is doing this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, everyone is dating.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like what's to call whoever their dating and are narcissists.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like the top word that's always tossed around.
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you like break down what that actually means?
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: So one of my most fun IG posts was, is he a narcissist or maybe he's just an asshole, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I've got a lot of information on this one.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because here's the thing, to be a narcissist, a true narcissist, to have narcissistic personality disorder from a psychological perspective, it's one percent of the population.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's very, really one tiny person.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, small.
[SPEAKER_01]: And everyone is narcissistic this day.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_00]: But if we just look at, if you capture the range of narcissism, we have healthy narcissism, like I'm self-promoting.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm confident.
[SPEAKER_00]: good on interviews.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to promote myself.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's good healthy narcissism.
[SPEAKER_00]: But then when it borders on unhealthy narcissism, that's a whole different thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And when we think about back to the manipulation.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I have lots of clients too where they'll say, like, you know, my husband was a narcissist.
[SPEAKER_00]: I ended up in a psychiatric institution and my therapist and a label was a narcissist.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I said, it doesn't even matter if somebody labeled them technically.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I have these, I'm just looking real quick, I have this post on like six morning signs of a narcissist spelled danger.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's an acronym which is super simple.
[SPEAKER_00]: D, they're defensive.
[SPEAKER_00]: Narcissists are always defensive, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Anytime I have a problem with you, I bring it up.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're gonna be defensive.
[SPEAKER_00]: They are attention-seeking.
[SPEAKER_00]: So back to the love bomber, they want something for the gift.
[SPEAKER_00]: They want you to call them, thank them, to say, oh my God, you're so wonderful, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: They want something for it, that's the thorns.
[SPEAKER_00]: They neglect you though, that's the end.
[SPEAKER_00]: Ultimately, they have no empathy.
[SPEAKER_00]: So they will come on strong, but then neglect your emotional needs, they can't sustain it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Then they gaslight you.
[SPEAKER_00]: What is gaslighting?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a really popular word, too.
[SPEAKER_00]: What do narcissists do?
[SPEAKER_00]: When you say, hey, I'm really upset or something, they say, what are you talking about?
[SPEAKER_00]: You do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're the one who's sabotaging.
[SPEAKER_00]: They flip everything around and make it your problem.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what gaslighting is.
[SPEAKER_00]: E, empathy failure.
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, so who was Narcissus?
[SPEAKER_00]: He was the Greek God who fell in love with his own image.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right in the in the pond and turned to stone to be a Narcissus
[SPEAKER_00]: classically you have a parent who was not there for you, so you had no mirror.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so a lot of narcissists then have no one to tell them that they're lovable or that they're good, so they go they seek this out in the world.
[SPEAKER_00]: So who are classically narcissists usually actually educated people?
[SPEAKER_00]: Why I dated to none of them?
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, people in Silicon Valley.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: People, people in Silicon Valley, check, check, check, check, check.
[SPEAKER_00]: San Francisco, who who get a lot of their means met from external rewards, because they weren't feeling loved at home, and oftentimes have narcissistic parents themselves, who don't have the capacity for emotional warmth.
[SPEAKER_00]: So they have to get that from other people, and then that becomes their self-esteem, and then they want to associate with other people that they highly value, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And then they surround themselves by people like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the last R for danger, they rebound quickly.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, yes, yep, they're gonna tell you,
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, same thing with my acts, the narcissist with the thorns and the love bombing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Then, you know, we're breaking up and I'm telling him, you know, it's just, you're not who I thought you were from the beginning.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, you painted yourself as this good dad and now I just don't think we're matched and he's I'm never going to find anyone and then sure enough I find out when I house keep my housekeeper who's also his housekeeper.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he's getting married and she's pregnant.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_03]: So this is, I love this because I just went check, check, check on this guy, I dated absolutely narcissists, maybe not in the 1%.
[SPEAKER_03]: But maybe in like the 30% of people who are semi-snarts narcissistic.
[SPEAKER_03]: And his version of love, love bombing was not easy to spot in the beginning.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think it is important to note that love bombing sometimes is not clear until later.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And you compare their actions to their earlier actions.
[SPEAKER_03]: So example is when we first are dating Julie, you know, this story, I was living elsewhere.
[SPEAKER_03]: I came to San Francisco to visit him.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I had a whole weekend planned in an Excel spreadsheet of all his favorite places.
[SPEAKER_03]: So on paper, this looked amazing, this guy was so thoughtful.
[SPEAKER_03]: And he asked me to give him any requests.
[SPEAKER_03]: Is there anything you want to see?
[SPEAKER_03]: You want to do you want to eat, etc.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I gave him a list of requests and he did not implement any of it.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that was red flag number one because he wanted control over the situation.
[SPEAKER_03]: To me, I was like, oh, he just didn't have time to plan this.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was making excuses.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now, the danger that you just spelled out, the end for neglect, he forgot my birthday.
[SPEAKER_03]: So after he planned this amazing weekend that took so much thought and time, all my birthday was the only day he did not call me.
[SPEAKER_03]: Did not even acknowledge.
[SPEAKER_03]: So when I called him out, the lack of empathy came through.
[SPEAKER_03]: He was like, oh, I'm sorry.
[SPEAKER_03]: I've been busy.
[SPEAKER_03]: I thought you were busy.
[SPEAKER_03]: At least it was in his excuse was, come on.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's just, I missed it on your day.
[SPEAKER_03]: I can say happy birthday to you the day after.
[SPEAKER_03]: so that he turned it around on me.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that's when I realized it was love bombing in the beginning.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I didn't see that till much later on when I could compare the actions.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think that's important to note that earlier in the relationship, it's harder to kind of spot this until later.
[SPEAKER_03]: But you also said this can appear even later in a relationship like maybe a few years in, what causes that to happen?
[SPEAKER_00]: So back to attachment styles.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's when people feel threatened that you're going to see their attachment style.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what I say is that people are like tea bags.
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't know who someone is until you put them in hot water.
[SPEAKER_00]: We also say you don't know somebody's strength until you put them in a hot water.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's so relevant because that person, it depends what the stressor is.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you're right, it's very hard to define this is love bombing this isn't.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a context of behaviors, stemming from a person's insecurities for which they feel like if they can move through this stage of dating faster, like if I can get you hook you faster
[SPEAKER_00]: you're actually going to be in love with me and then I'm going to get to slip in these other things.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the manipulation.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's like if you think of like a bomb that goes off and it's like it's a smoke screen for other things so you can't see my insecurity.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love the name of this book, the Wizard of Oz and other narcissists.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, who is the wizard of Oz?
[SPEAKER_00]: He's the little man behind the curtain controlling all the controls, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: But he was I am Oz, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: I am all And I love that name of the book because it talks about who are these narcissists, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: They're the little insecure man
[SPEAKER_00]: who really can't sustain it, they can't sustain the intimacy, they don't know how.
[SPEAKER_00]: So they're kind of like faking it, like the doing these behaviors, they might watch the romantic movies and pick up the women like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: But again, it's coming from them.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not about you.
[SPEAKER_00]: That trip lacked you in it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, right.
[SPEAKER_00]: He just wanted to get you to notice what a good guy he was, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And when it really mattered on your birthday and my guy, the exact same thing my birthday's right by Christmas and so is a trigger for me sure enough.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's like, well, can we just change your birthday?
[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, my.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, that's right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And these things are subtle, you don't really realize them until you're kind of in it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like the quicksand.
[SPEAKER_00]: Then to your your question, it can happen later too.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when the threat comes up now, the threat is threat of losing you, the threat of their own life, maybe their job is going really poorly or something.
[SPEAKER_00]: For my guy, what happened was I, then this was the craziest thing, like I met him on match.com.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was showing my girlfriend like my profile on match and somehow it re-activated my account without me knowing it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then he confronts me, I come back from a trip and he confronts me like how dare you've been on match well, how the heck did he know that I was on match?
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, he was right back to the gas lighting.
[SPEAKER_00]: So now he's like, Oh, dare you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't believe you were on match that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, I wasn't, but he didn't want to listen to that and I at that point I already figured out that he had already had this other person probably on the hook and and all of that.
[SPEAKER_00]: but like it's a picture, it's a bigger picture and envelope a set of behaviors that are the smoke screen for an insecure person and it can come at various points in your relationship usually some kind of inflection point.
[SPEAKER_00]: Got it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Some kind of stress point that is going to activate the insecure attachment style and they're gonna go back to what they know because that love bombing worked.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it helped you at the beginning.
[SPEAKER_00]: It got you.
[SPEAKER_00]: It got me.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the people we were talking about earlier that like didn't do any overtly like narcissistic thing, but just you know like maybe used it as a way for their own ego or something or freaked out genuinely because it was too much too soon.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like is the lime manipulation or is that still technically manipulation?
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess I'm trying to understand if that does fall in
[SPEAKER_00]: I think there are people who are just oversharing and I think they get threatened at the beginning where they might really like you and they get overexcited.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would not call that love bombing because I don't think that does justice to what true manipulation love bombing is.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like that's why I want to differentiate between a narcissist versus an asshole.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, at the end, if it didn't work out, you don't have to call them a narcissist.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, people want to label it, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to understand it didn't work out because he was a narcissist.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, no, he was just an asshole.
[SPEAKER_00]: He just wasn't a fit for you, but to them.
[SPEAKER_00]: And as a therapist, I'm very careful about labeling somebody as a narcissist or calling it love bombing because it could just be that this person doesn't have a good filter.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're super anxious, super excited, they overshare what I hear,
[SPEAKER_00]: I was just talking to a client today where what happens is she's an anxious person and someone else will share something and she feels the vulnerability and she doesn't know how to echo or mirror the vulnerability so she ends up over sharing and then I don't know if you've heard the term like having a vulnerability hangover.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love that, please.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's amazing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Explain.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, vulnerability hangover is when you shared and you didn't plan to.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like you got drunk and then you're like, what, what the hell happened?
[SPEAKER_00]: I kind of blacked out and and it's coming from a place of your anxiety that you feel like so for her, I would say, did you feel like you couldn't just so the sky, for instance, said that he was recovering alcoholic.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so she felt like she need to mirror his story with her own trauma story.
[SPEAKER_00]: She wasn't ready to share her trauma story.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we were working on her narrative.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like this is your narrative.
[SPEAKER_00]: You own your narrative.
[SPEAKER_00]: You decide who is trustworthy enough to get this narrative for you to be safe with.
[SPEAKER_00]: But because he shared she felt she needed to share.
[SPEAKER_00]: And instead, I said, you can give other empathy statements.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can say, thank you so much for sharing.
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel really vulnerable with you.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's an amazing story.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow, you're so courageous.
[SPEAKER_00]: Good for you.
[SPEAKER_00]: What is that?
[SPEAKER_00]: Keep the focus on them because also you run the risk that when I share because you share, I'm actually taking away from your story, too.
[SPEAKER_01]: Got it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it doesn't necessarily love bombing.
[SPEAKER_01]: It could just be that like if like the piece isn't feeling right to you that's kind of on you to maybe control the piece a little and not necessarily.
[SPEAKER_01]: And here's another scenario that I've heard labeled love bombing that I'd love for you to kind of let us know is like similar like someone comes on strong, there's a lot of conversation and then they start to pull away.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then when you confront them, they do kind of gaslight you a bit like you're overreacting or something like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that love bombing or is that like purely just a miscommunication of people?
[SPEAKER_01]: You're shaking your head now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think here's the problem.
[SPEAKER_00]: With all of that, let's go back to the love drug.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're excited at the beginning.
[SPEAKER_00]: You haven't met the person yet because this goes into ghosting.
[SPEAKER_00]: This happens all the time, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: You haven't met the person yet.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're really excited.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're sharing lots of information.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're really connecting.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you finally do meet, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And now you don't feel the urge as much because you've already met them.
[SPEAKER_00]: But in your mind, you had the expectation that that would continue.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, you're watching carefully and you're observing that as a pullback.
[SPEAKER_00]: When really, it's just normal because men oftentimes, if we talk about heterosexual relationships, men oftentimes communicate because they need to.
[SPEAKER_00]: But like, it's only that the woman imagined that that pace and that rate was going to continue and now you're disappointed.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you label that as normal behavior,
[SPEAKER_00]: which was excitement from the beginning, and now it's just a normal pullback, because when you confront the person about the behavior, they're not even aware of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Got it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's not that they're not still manipulating you.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just they might, their reaction might be to that that like, oh, I didn't see that coming.
[SPEAKER_01]: And even, I could see that happening obviously situations where you meet up for the first time, but even if you've been like dating for a little, yeah,
[SPEAKER_01]: And then like you have an expectation like I think women often do this too that we're like 10 steps ahead Yes, man a lot of times right with yeah, I guess that's a question for you like can women love bomb like is that possible too?
[SPEAKER_01]: Or is it or like being narcissists or is it mostly found in men?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I think women are more guarded and more cautious.
[SPEAKER_00]: So for instance, like, women don't wouldn't say something like, oh, you ought to meet my sister or my best friend, unless they really meant it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think men don't practice as much with other men and they get excited.
[SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes they throw down these provocative statements without really thinking through what that means.
[SPEAKER_00]: So women are less likely to love bomb because she's always filtering and watching what she's doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: What about like to manipulate?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like do you see that in both sexes?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like let's say the the tables were turns and it was a woman a single mother that needed help with their children.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like have you seek is that possible or is it more show up in men women wouldn't
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't see that happening as much.
[SPEAKER_00]: She would just kind of come out and be more direct.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but I see that, and here's the thing, I don't think the men, this isn't conscious.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think the thing is that I say, because I'm a couple's therapist too.
[SPEAKER_00]: So much of this is unconscious behavior that came from childhood.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you look at that person like a baby, you wouldn't see that they were pre-planning and manipulating.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's why I said, you know, it's not like the man has this master plan out there and he, oh, I'm gonna get her and then I'm gonna hook her for so many months and then I'm gonna tell her and then I'm gonna, it all happens really fast and it happens really unconsciously.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when you do confront the man on it, like youth pulled back and he's just thinking shit, I was just busy at work.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't plan some big thing to hook you and then a band in you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just got busy and I thought we were at that point where I didn't have to manage the relationship so much.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe from a good perspective he's feeling so safe and secure that he doesn't have to be texting you every day and he thought and from the man's perspective the man just wants support, a woman who's going to kind of be there but maybe he has more of the avoidance style and he didn't ask for that.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we have to be curious about the behavior.
[SPEAKER_00]: to ask, hey, John, I haven't heard from you.
[SPEAKER_00]: What's up?
[SPEAKER_00]: Instead of like, leading with, oh, you abandoned me, you rejected me.
[SPEAKER_00]: What's wrong?
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because that's priming.
[SPEAKER_00]: And when you prime someone, they feel triggered.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, they feel threatened.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, the worst thing that you can say is, we need to talk.
[SPEAKER_00]: because you're like, oh crap, I'm in trouble.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's my mother telling me we need to take it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that too, because then you can see what the reaction is if it's gaslighting or narcissistic, like it's all on you, then you know that maybe this could be love bombing more.
[SPEAKER_00]: And why I call it six steps of danger?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like for me, I know when I'm involved with narcissists.
[SPEAKER_00]: They usually, again, talk more about themselves.
[SPEAKER_00]: They don't ask you a lot of questions, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: You might be on a date, they barely ask you anything.
[SPEAKER_00]: God knows, I was with, when God, I don't think he asked me a single question.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, check, please, see you later, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know those people who they can't, you can see it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And for me, it's like now that hair on the back of my neck stands up, so I know.
[SPEAKER_00]: But in dating, especially if you're coming at it from a place where you, yourself, might have been deprived or you haven't had a lot of attention.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then all of a sudden somebody comes along and they give you this kind of attention.
[SPEAKER_00]: And remember,
[SPEAKER_00]: we are all infiltrated by the movies and rom-coms and the notebook.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I did a post about this like five steps why the notebook is not a good model.
[SPEAKER_00]: He is a total right.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's dropping in on her, kind of stalking her, right letters, right building a, it's like, and yet we put this model out like this is what love is.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the good guys, right, the normal guys who don't do all of that, we think they're boring.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's not chasing me.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's not doing that.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we have to be careful about the narrative.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're giving ourselves about what love and romance is.
[SPEAKER_03]: I want to go deeper into that because I can hear some people listening to this right now saying, love bombing isn't that bad.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's better than being abused.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's better than being neglected.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's better than being rejected.
[SPEAKER_03]: It just sounds like I think I could handle that.
[SPEAKER_03]: So what are the dangers of someone staying in a relationship where they're constantly being loved bombed?
[SPEAKER_00]: So, if I go back to my own situation with the roses, and I had seen immediately that I was manipulation instead of something nice, I would have saved myself like a year of heartache.
[SPEAKER_00]: If I go back to it, so what is the danger?
[SPEAKER_00]: If the roses come with thorns,
[SPEAKER_00]: the gifts come with an expectation.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you turn it down and if I said to this guy like, hey, no, I don't really like these roses.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm turning a back or something.
[SPEAKER_00]: What a narcissist would do is say, again, what my gift isn't good enough.
[SPEAKER_00]: Who do you think you are?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, there would be the manipulative hook.
[SPEAKER_00]: And yet, the best advice that I give people if you are with the narcissist, there's not going to be a good ending.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not going to end well.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're not going to say, oh, you're right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, this guy's saying to me, oh, I'll never find anyone.
[SPEAKER_00]: And yet, he already had somebody else on the hook.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, like, what?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I felt horrible, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, what did I do?
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not good enough.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it activated all my abandonment wounds.
[SPEAKER_00]: But they're not thinking of you, and the love bombing is a problem again, if it's a series of behaviors that come with the hook and suddenly now you're into a relationship that you didn't really even choose.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hmm, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't like choose that.
[SPEAKER_00]: If it had been slower past and I had felt like I'd been invited into this relationship, but I felt like there's a way where you just become like disoriented.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, there's a way that these behaviors, like, it's really a bomb, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, boom, it just kind of catches you off guard.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so why I think it's important for women to know about this is because you do have to pay attention.
[SPEAKER_00]: What is the feeling I'm getting around this person?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is there an ulterior motive?
[SPEAKER_00]: If it
[SPEAKER_00]: Why aren't they going slower?
[SPEAKER_00]: Why aren't they respecting my boundaries?
[SPEAKER_00]: Why aren't they dating me more in a normal way?
[SPEAKER_00]: What's the rush?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the question.
[SPEAKER_00]: What's the rush?
[SPEAKER_01]: You were saying narcissist are mostly avoided attachments.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that what you were saying?
[SPEAKER_01]: Mostly.
[SPEAKER_00]: But you can have an anxiously and anxious ambivalent I call him nervous Nick.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can have a nervous Nick type.
[SPEAKER_00]: because it's your nervous system, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's very insecure and can love bomb you, too.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's stats that like most of the dating pool, the older and older you get, becomes more avoidant or anxious and less secure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like how can you spot these people?
[SPEAKER_01]: Or is there a way to spot these people early on?
[SPEAKER_01]: So you don't get into this situation, like you just described.
[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_00]: Ah, the way so many...
[SPEAKER_00]: so many clues, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think there's more like yellow flags that can turn into red flags, but the point if you're with a narcissist and you bring up their behavior that is concerning to you, they're not really going to be empathic, they're not going to listen or say, oh thank you for telling me, how can I adjust, how can I change?
[SPEAKER_00]: They're not able to take it in and pivot, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the
[SPEAKER_00]: They're going to see it as something wrong with you because you're throwing up a mirror that isn't the mirror that I'd like to see myself as smart and accomplished and I have so much to offer.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're giving me a different reflection and I don't like it so it's your fault.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's your problem.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's about you.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what I'm pushing back.
[SPEAKER_03]: But so, do you think love bombers know that they're doing it?
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to call them relationship terrorists because they do go with this whole theme.
[SPEAKER_03]: Do you think that they are guilty for these terrorist actions?
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, I think it's unconscious on their part.
[SPEAKER_00]: I really.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think having said that, I think there are some players out there who are very good.
[SPEAKER_00]: They know exactly what to say and what to do to get a woman to fall for them.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I think like this guy that I'm talking about the covert narcissist, I don't think he was consciously aware of that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I really don't.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think that he like knew that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think he had, he was running so fast and had so many other issues that he just wanted to get me because he saw me as valuable.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, here's this attractive woman.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to get her and so he wanted to hook me fast.
[SPEAKER_00]: that was where the behavior came from.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think men are aware, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: They know what women like.
[SPEAKER_00]: They know that flowers are good.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like at some point, you figure out what are the behaviors or she likes nice things, get her a purse.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I've heard from so many of my clients that they, you know, again, men send them credit cards.
[SPEAKER_00]: They give them exorbitant things.
[SPEAKER_00]: But again, no normal, nice guy, no secure Steve.
[SPEAKER_00]: My character would do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: He wouldn't have to.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, I think it's the generic stuff, too.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I think you all mention, like, because they're not tailored yet to you in the way.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like, you mentioned earlier, it doesn't have to be just gifts though, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It can be other stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, how does this, like, how could you see this in other ways?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, if their love style is more acts of service, now all of a sudden, you know, they're coming to my house and doing repairs.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know a lot of guys will do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: They'll try to make themselves invaluable in other ways, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So you mentioned you have a problem and all of a sudden, but it's poor boundaries too.
[SPEAKER_00]: it's the lack of kind of like asking.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is this okay?
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
[SPEAKER_00]: They're just like making an assumption.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the manipulation is like it feels kind of forced.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it doesn't.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not about you.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not personal.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's coming.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's stemming from their insecurity.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's why it's so
[SPEAKER_00]: tricky, because they look like why would they need to do that?
[SPEAKER_00]: It looks like it's genuine, but it's coming from this place of not feeling good enough, the little man behind the curtain.
[SPEAKER_01]: Could it be words of affirmation also like excessively or is that not as much of a sign?
[SPEAKER_00]: I think so.
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, if their love language is verbal, then they're going to lay it on thick with all of that and different than like the anxious person who's over sharing their own stories, they might be sharing a lot about you.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're so beautiful.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're so wonderful.
[SPEAKER_00]: I never met anybody like you.
[SPEAKER_00]: And all of these things just feel like too much like tell me you like my eyes or something but don't go on and exaggerate and then when I say like oh please stop or that's too much then then it becomes again like oh what's wrong with that you're just not used to a man treating you this way and it's got like a jealousy tone and it's got it's just rift with all other kinds of things.
[SPEAKER_03]: not all love bombers are narcissists so we can clarify that and I do have a friend that that comes to mind he love bombs out of insecurity we've talked about that to you and he does that with all of his girlfriends because he's so afraid of losing them so I kind of want to take a moment to just help save these sort of love bombers because one they don't know they're doing it but to yes how can we help them recognize they're doing this out of insecurity and what is
[SPEAKER_00]: perfect.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when I work with that kind of guy, there's a part of them that you don't know how to connect.
[SPEAKER_00]: They don't know that real connection is about past vulnerability.
[SPEAKER_00]: They don't know that what women really want is consistency.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll take a consistent good guy, like my husband any day, over someone who a relationship or keep trying to race to get back to the beginning.
[SPEAKER_00]: Amen.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, the beginning was so exciting.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, my God, I want to get back to that.
[SPEAKER_00]: But consistency is going to win hands down anytime.
[SPEAKER_00]: And what I coach these men on is listen, you're a good guy.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's enough.
[SPEAKER_00]: You being consistently there is going to go so much further than giving her something that you can't deliver over time.
[SPEAKER_00]: and listen to her.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you love her, you really like her.
[SPEAKER_00]: She says chocolates her favorite.
[SPEAKER_00]: Go get her the best darn chocolate that she wants, but that's special.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now that's a gift.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not a love bomb because it had in positive intention behind it and he was mirroring something and he did it for your pleasure, not for him.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a great distinction.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I tell these men, right, learn that you are enough.
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to do all of this extra stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: You just got it to have to be like 10% better than the other guys out there who are flakes, who aren't being consistent.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're a good guy and you show up consistently.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's your money.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's your ticket.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, there's gonna be bad actors.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's gonna be people that are insecure that we can't save, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: They need to do that work with someone like you.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think at the end of the day, you ate, I always say this.
[SPEAKER_01]: The only person you can control is yourself.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not putting blame on people that have been love bomb, especially if it's been highly manipulative.
[SPEAKER_01]: But what are there?
[SPEAKER_01]: Are there ways that you can look in words?
[SPEAKER_01]: And like, does it have to do with your own attachment styles that you might be more susceptible than others too, love bombing?
[SPEAKER_00]: So we're back to I'm the person who's doing the love bombing or I'm the person getting love bombed.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yes, I go back to that and I think if I had to do all over again, I probably would have found a gracious way to reject the gift.
[SPEAKER_00]: If I had to do all over again, and I wouldn't have felt like I owed him anything.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because that's the hook for women.
[SPEAKER_00]: that women who are insecure themselves feel like this behavior is special.
[SPEAKER_00]: If I had labeled it as more about him and less about me, then I could have been on top of it, but I got sucked into the vortex.
[SPEAKER_00]: of this behavior by not seeing it for what it was and then feeling deprived myself and then feeling like I needed to kind of like deserve that after the fact and gave him more than I wanted to give him.
[SPEAKER_01]: God, so it's your own security is really where it's coming from.
[SPEAKER_00]: My own security, and then I've worked on myself, and then I finally got to the point in therapy like, okay, this is the last narcissist, and because I was an anxious person myself, I'm going to be attracted to whom an unavailable person, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because my parent was there for me sometimes, but not others, and that's my hook.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I do a lot of posts and I have a lot of clients that I've forewarned them.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you are the anxiously attached person, you are going to be hooked to these people who are unavailable.
[SPEAKER_00]: You then, as the person who's receiving that, you can say, hey, listen, you know what?
[SPEAKER_00]: There's going to be time for all of them.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I feel like these are conversations are a little bit intense, but why don't we just like make them a little bit shorter?
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you then felt in control of the behaviors where saying you can only control yourself, then you could kind of like slow that down a little bit.
[SPEAKER_00]: But with also some reassurance, hey, I really like these conversations are great.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just feel like I've been on the phone all day, it's just a little too much for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'd prefer if we talk for shorter, but keep up with it.
[SPEAKER_00]: the pace because this is really good.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, it's got it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Instead of just like texting laughs or doing something that makes someone else feel like you're ghosting or polio away.
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have to just communicate more what works for us.
[SPEAKER_00]: You take care of yourself, tell them because they don't want to, they don't want to have that disappear either.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're enjoying that.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it just needs it's the intensity that you wanted a little less of.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then for the actual love bombers, like people that are the ones love bombing, like how as a data do you kind of navigate dating?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you were saying before you don't want to like be skeptical of every last person, like what is that balance of looking at those?
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like with yet like red flags, like people are always like red flags.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a red flag.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's almost like intimidating and you're also kind of setting yourself up for negativity, but also we can't be dumb and ignore things that could actually pan out later.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like what's the line?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, Dr. Diane, you know, it sounds like it's a loose loose.
[SPEAKER_03]: And you can't win anymore.
[SPEAKER_03]: You're just a people who are saying, I just looking for someone to treat me well.
[SPEAKER_03]: And now it's like, if they treat you too good in the beginning, you gotta be a little weary.
[SPEAKER_00]: My whole thing with dating too is it only takes one.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you have to see it as a abundance model.
[SPEAKER_00]: There are a lot of good guys out there, but there's also just a lot of people who are just like you.
[SPEAKER_00]: In secure looking for love, none of us really know what the hell we're doing, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: We're all just kind of fumbling through it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I personally think for me when I got to the point where I said, like no more narcissists, I also opened myself up to a bigger dating pool.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I myself wasn't so anxious because when you're anxious, you're heavy, okay?
[SPEAKER_00]: I kind of say it's like you're a muffin.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're like a dense zucchini muffin.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love it analogy.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know, they're so good.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not bad.
[SPEAKER_00]: You gotta be a cupcake, okay?
[SPEAKER_00]: you gotta be a cupcake that is like light and fluffy and fun and has crinkles and like people want a day to cupcake, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So light and up cupcake is what I say.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like if you're so anxious and so worried I'm gonna be abandoned, I'm gonna be rejected.
[SPEAKER_00]: This guy's gonna love for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm walking into it in a fear mode already.
[SPEAKER_00]: My guard's gonna be up.
[SPEAKER_00]: dating should be fun.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're getting to meet somebody.
[SPEAKER_00]: There has to be an element of curiosity and play.
[SPEAKER_00]: And when I said, I've got to bring all of me to dating because I've been hurt so many times.
[SPEAKER_00]: I dated for so long.
[SPEAKER_00]: Then I started my tagline on match.com was life is short.
[SPEAKER_00]: I hope you're not.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, and I'm, I'm callist, I've just saying because I'm like 5-10 though and I wanted someone who was tall and I know it's superficial and short men would write me like how dare you and I'm like, okay, well, but my husband's 6-6 and it worked but I got to that point where like I didn't care I was just going to have to be myself like this is my personality I can't worry about offending everyone I'm just looking for one
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we've said this on many episodes and this is kind of a good segue to take ways, but like we've talked about the feeling, and I think it really does come down to that feeling.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think you do know in your gut is this authentic or is this new too?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think you do and I think a lot of times when you still continue to do it, it comes from what you were saying of like the lack of confidence yourself or Where you're at if you're in a world where you're the cupcake, I'm so gonna be like swiping through dating out being like, I'm the cupcake and just keep thinking about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like if you're in a place that you're in the cupcake, then you are kind of like okay Is this authentic?
[SPEAKER_00]: I have a lot of options like you're kind of looking at that way opposed to like I need a like grasp on to every last person that pays me attention kind of I tell people because I watch the bachelor I follow all of them Me too I like to And I bonded over Okay, so now my new thing is this you are the bachelor at you are not on the bachelor
[SPEAKER_00]: It's your show, and all we have to do is get like 30 men in the funnel, okay?
[SPEAKER_00]: So you have to have a dating strategy where you're going to have a lot of people to choose from.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because if I come into this from a place of empowerment, like I have choice, and there's good people out there, I can't wait to be chosen.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a mindset shift.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have to feel like I get to choose.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if there's a narcissistic man who is forcing you to choose quicker than you are, you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I knew, but I didn't, because I was in a drought before I met him, like I was going with scraps, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like this wasn't ideal for me, but I somehow felt like, well, it's better than nothing, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So, but if I then I regrouped, got myself together, regrouped and said, no, this is my show.
[SPEAKER_00]: I get to choose and I started dating with more intention and started asking the right questions and with intentionality and I wasn't so hooked by those guys anymore then I could see clearly like, oh god, yeah, he's so insecure.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I could move on and welcome other better men into my life.
[SPEAKER_00]: The good guys who are boring, by the way.
[SPEAKER_01]: boring is good or it depends on how you define boring you see but analogy for them are they like the like I can't boring box getting
[SPEAKER_01]: What type of bread is super boring?
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just that, just that wonder bread.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: Your plane, your plane bread.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the thing is, you have to see that again, consistency over time.
[SPEAKER_00]: What are you getting?
[SPEAKER_00]: That if you're chasing this excitement, because there is something about the love bombing and the narcissism that's exciting, because this person is towering you with everything, it's like hard not to like, like to slow it down, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: But that's where if you're setting the pace, if you're with a therapist, you have a coach, you're checking in with yourself.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're not just listening to your girlfriend, somebody who's more objective about what this behavior is.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're saying, how do they make me feel?
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
[SPEAKER_00]: You are the barometer on yourself to say, is this person making me feel safe?
[SPEAKER_00]: Do I feel comfortable with them?
[SPEAKER_00]: Are they bringing up the best in me?
[SPEAKER_00]: Am I myself?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because when I was with this narcissistic guy, I felt like I needed to be perfect all the time, you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I felt like like his showpiece, you know, is, you know, arm candy or something.
[SPEAKER_00]: It felt kind of achy, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I didn't feel like you really wanted to get to mine.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think that's a good segue to takeaways.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I think one of the things that I've definitely learned from this is that there is a distinct Definition of love bombing love bombing gets tossed around a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: The word narcissists.
[SPEAKER_01]: There is a range, but it is also worth it gets tossed around
[SPEAKER_01]: around a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think at the end of the day, we have to communicate.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, this is like, we said, every episode, but we have to communicate and not just make assumptions because then we learn is this actually just, you know, someone getting ahead of themselves or someone maybe they're actually feeling like this is going well, and they can pull back because they feel like they're at a good place.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or if we communicate in the person basically gas lights us back and tells us that we're
[SPEAKER_01]: wrong, then we know at least what we're dealing with.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think instead of throwing around terms to describe certain situations, we need to just start having conversations, but also look at the answers objectively.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like we are saying, I love this be your own batch threat.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you see React replies that are not what you're looking for, like if you feel like someone's putting you down, it's time to move on to the next person in a place of abundance, not scarcity.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, one other analogy that I love is when we're insecure, we also get a disappointed by a lot of people.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know I did.
[SPEAKER_00]: Somebody would, I was just always disappointed.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I'd have some vision of them and they would never like measure up to my expectations.
[SPEAKER_00]: and we tend to use what we call the golden rule.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I use myself as my reference point because this is all I know, like I've only been myself, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So I use the golden rule which is in my head.
[SPEAKER_00]: I say do one to others the way I would like to be done on to.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then when the person doesn't do what I'd hoped because like I would be so empathetic if they said that, I would be so loving and when they don't give that back to me, that's when I'm disappointed.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I would be texting all the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: The fact that they're not texting means they're hurting me.
[SPEAKER_00]: How dare they?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like all they have to do is text me back, damn it.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it doesn't work for couples.
[SPEAKER_00]: What you want to use, I don't know if you've ever heard the platinum rule.
[SPEAKER_00]: Have you heard the platinum rule?
[SPEAKER_00]: The platinum rule is do one to your partner the way they want to be done on to.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hmm.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: love it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So in couples, I'm using myself as my reference point, but you're different.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm anxiously attached, but you're more avoidant.
[SPEAKER_00]: You need space, distance, peace.
[SPEAKER_00]: I need connection, validation, closeness.
[SPEAKER_00]: So who's needs are more important.
[SPEAKER_00]: There has to be enough space and time to meet both of our needs.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, you have to communicate to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I need space and I need peace because this is what I need for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I need to communicate that I need closeness, but as a couple now, we need to negotiate this.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I have to give you what you need, not what I think you need, or not what I need.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's when you get a real partnership, a couple, where you are both listening to each other, and there's space for two people.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's where love language came from.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not so much like me telling me projecting my love language onto you is that we both have different languages and we just got to learn to speak each other's language.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I love that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think two of my major takeaways from this conversation are the consistency is huge.
[SPEAKER_03]: I do believe that
[SPEAKER_03]: that we get addicted to the love bombing behavior because it's adrenaline.
[SPEAKER_03]: It gives you that pump of energy, that that pump of lovingness, and then you get addicted to it, but if you don't consistently see it over time, it is disappointing, you get depressed, you feel neglected.
[SPEAKER_03]: So seeing that not just your partner's behavior as consistent, but also checking yourself.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I performing consistently as well.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I showing up for my partner consistently as huge.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think my second major takeaway is, you said something about sometimes we get ourselves into relationships and we're like, how did I get here?
[SPEAKER_03]: And knowing that you made that decision and choice to be in there, I think we forget that in dating too.
[SPEAKER_03]: We often blame external factors.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then we say, oh, the result of where I am today is because of things that are out of my control.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, guess what?
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not.
[SPEAKER_03]: If you find yourself in a position where you listen to your gut, it's like, I don't want to be in this position.
[SPEAKER_03]: You chose to be there.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now you can choose to not be there instead of blaming other people.
[SPEAKER_03]: We can blame narcissists all we want.
[SPEAKER_03]: We furthest so many times, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Do you like people always like, I'm dating an narcissist.
[SPEAKER_03]: And this narcissist is treating you this way.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, don't blame the narcissist.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you got to blame yourself for choosing to be in that situation.
[SPEAKER_03]: So the power of choice is so important here because we got to stop blaming these external factors.
[SPEAKER_03]: If you've been loved-bombed and the minute you realize it, it is your choice to acknowledge it and to do something about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: own and atone.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, outside of narcissists too, another one that I think gets thrown around all the time is they're insecure attached.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like they're insecure person.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think attachment is really important to like understand yourself, but we can't just use that as the reason why every relationship does it work out too.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, they just might not be the right fit for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: It might have zero to do with their attachment.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like there's so many things out there, but I think like the other takeaway is that this could happen to anyone.
[SPEAKER_01]: Dr. Diane, like your psychologist and it happened to you, I think the key is when you see the behavior that's off or you start to feel the behavior that's off, that's when you act.
[SPEAKER_01]: When you just keep rushing it under the rug, that's when it becomes you in control versus not.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's right, and don't expect that they're going to agree with you.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is the moment when I said, if you're with a narcissist, you need to get out.
[SPEAKER_00]: It oftentimes means I've helped people, you know, untangle their, you know, and get divorced.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're waiting for the other person to give you permission, they're not going to remember their narcissists.
[SPEAKER_00]: They lack empathy.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're not going to agree with you and say, oh, yeah, you can do better.
[SPEAKER_00]: Are you kidding?
[SPEAKER_00]: They're going to tell you, good luck to you.
[SPEAKER_00]: You'll never do better than me.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're going to cut you down.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then there's something called narcissistic rage that you do have to be careful of.
[SPEAKER_00]: True narcissists will be so offended that you left them.
[SPEAKER_00]: that they could really make your life hell.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, sounds like a movie.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Narcissistic crazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Seriously, it's ugly.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I would say, once again, back to control, so what, if you have to turn some guy down and they tell you like, oh, what you think you're too good for my gifts, so I'll just say, you know, thank you so much.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's just we're just not a fit.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, say whatever you need to, literally.
[SPEAKER_00]: Say whatever you need to to take care of yourself to get out of that and then declare no more, which is what I did.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like no more, I'm not open for that inconsistency.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to welcome only men who are at a different level into my life.
[SPEAKER_00]: And when you get really clear on that, you won't have all these red flag people.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the other final one on the labeling, I love your like, are they and ours's or just an asshole?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I think sometimes, you know, it just is that simple.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't need to find a label for everyone.
[SPEAKER_01]: We just need to know that the behavior or the feeling does not align with what we're looking for and move on.
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't need to be like, they did this.
[SPEAKER_01]: They did that.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's better spent time to just move forward opposed to figuring out their personality disorders and all the stuff out there.
[SPEAKER_01]: you're not a psychologist, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm not a fixer.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Leave that to doctor.
[SPEAKER_01]: But you're Diane.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I do have a label.
[SPEAKER_03]: I just took your love quiz or love style quiz.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I am a secure Sofia.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that is label.
[SPEAKER_03]: I am happy to want.
[SPEAKER_03]: and speaking of this quiz people can take if people want to find out more information about you they want to connect with you they could go to back to love doc back to love no back to love doc doc com no that's right back to love doc doc com now no it's gonna ever forget it's
[SPEAKER_00]: So, okay, if I gave you my real name, which is Diane Strickowski, now that's a mouthful.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, I got all these long days, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So where can people find you?
[SPEAKER_01]: Where's a good place for that to find you?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, again, they can find me on YouTube, they can find me on Instagram, they can find me on my website.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have online courses, I do couples therapy, I'm only looking in California, meaning I can only do therapy with people in California, but I am licensed.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I love coaching people, I love coaching men, I love coaching women, I love couples.
[SPEAKER_00]: because if I can help a couple, like, figure out the platinum rule and save a marriage, to me, it's, it's also worth it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And if you haven't done so yet, subscribe to the psychology of relationships today.
[SPEAKER_03]: So you don't miss an episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: Bye!