[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the intentional fatherhood podcast where we give you a strong biblical framework and lots of practical ideas on how to live intentionally as a father and a husband.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm Brooke Moser and I'm Justin Whitmore Early and we're your host to guide you through the many roles and challenges that God is calling you to live intentionally as a father.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're following a visual framework that you can check out at intentionalfatherhood.org and it's going to help you break down fatherhood into eight columns.
[SPEAKER_00]: And in each one, we're going to talk about how God made you to be a father and what practical habits you can start trying today in order to live intentionally into that home.
[SPEAKER_02]: So come along with us as we follow Jesus on this journey towards being more intentional fathers.
[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome back to the intentional father-in-law's podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're here just to we are here or here and where's he where are we We're saying we've been in California so much less This is my third trip to California in three months and a man.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm honestly starting to love it I'm sorry to love it.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's too much time away from the family and the jet lags are problem, but
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I like California.
[SPEAKER_00]: Dude, well, this is, I like it too.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, San Diego is a hard place to be angry at.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah, if you're like watching this, obviously looks like a different setting.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're just, we had an event, we're out together.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm so glad to connect.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we just, we're here, we're like, we gotta, we gotta talk about what happened at the father of retreat.
[SPEAKER_00]: And man, the amount of feedback in the amount of encouragement and the amount of just people, whether that's not really texting, primarily email and social media telling us about what's going on in their lives and how the spirits blessing them through some of these conversations and the conversations that these conversations are feeling has been so encouraging.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we're going to talk about that.
[SPEAKER_00]: This kind of a bonus episode, we're going to actually respond to some of the questions that were submitted at the retreat that were really great that we just never got to.
[SPEAKER_00]: Good name on time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I'm going to say it just like I always do, please rate subscribe, leave a comment.
[SPEAKER_00]: It always helps us.
[SPEAKER_02]: It helps so much.
[SPEAKER_02]: I actually was thinking about this the other day because when people leave comments or ask questions on specific parts, we understand what they're interested in.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's like, oh, we'll talk more about that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Or when you're like, oh, I like this episode.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we can see the ratings, see how the lessons and they're like, oh, people want more of that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it actually gives us great feedback to help you get better content.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yes, yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we have I just maybe a couple things to say before we talk about the reflection we know that we haven't dropped a season for a little bit.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's in the works right in the work in the work three we really excited about that and there's more to come about all of intentional fatherhood, which is actually some of the stuff I'm going to talk about today, but I think where would maybe be a good launching point and we chat about this before little it's just reflect on what happened at the fatherhood retreat.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, some of y'all listening don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: We just had the first intentional fatherhood retreat in California So just two weeks ago, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: It was actually two weeks ago two weeks ago.
[SPEAKER_02]: We were in California together.
[SPEAKER_02]: Gross and I coast to Mesa hosting the first intentional fatherhood retreat and it blew it blew me away
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'm not hyping it for the podcast.
[SPEAKER_02]: It blew me.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's probably the most significant conference that I've been to in the last two decades.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm a Christian Congress is where a big part of my life in college That's a big I haven't said that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I haven't said it to me, but also it's funny because and it's weird like my Our conference I was just egos egos egos and I go it's like maybe my conference is a signal
[SPEAKER_02]: did something that we can that I did not expect in my life and in the lives of I think a lot of those guys Yeah, who came, but I'm honestly just still Reeling from how significant it was.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hmm.
[SPEAKER_00]: I Want to I want to ask you a few more questions about that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I will I will just in in note agree Had
[SPEAKER_00]: not no expectation, but I think you set a really good table, you want to do your best to put your best foot forward when you put on an event for people that spend time and energy and sacrifice of time away from family and money to get there.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you want to set a good table, but do that table doesn't, it doesn't really matter if the spirit doesn't show up and do work.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that to me to agree with you in full.
[SPEAKER_00]: The part that was
[SPEAKER_00]: so beautiful was what happened in that room in regards to transformation in the men's lives.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think that and to be clear, no amount of content that just and I could come up with, we're just not that smart.
[SPEAKER_00]: Was that that factor?
[SPEAKER_02]: No, the spirit of God was there in a way.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, in a way.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I want to ask you, you know, he said, one of the most significant moments, giving just a little more, why was that significant for you?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, let me tell you, um, because you don't know, like, we haven't, like, debriefed.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know, this is actually, I, y'all are going to listen to us live debriefed.
[SPEAKER_02]: We have a lot going on outside of this, we'll make sure we're on.
[SPEAKER_02]: When you said, like, we should do a conference.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was like, that sounds great.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's fun.
[SPEAKER_02]: I speak at commerce is all the time, like, I like preparing content.
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like God has called me to do speaking and writing and, you know, most of it's behind my computer writing, but I do like going to speak places.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so I just imagined us sort of going to a church and like speaking like I usually speak just and you know, maybe there'll be a couple hundred guys there.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, I did not expect the quality of production.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you guys just had intention to do an inquiry.
[SPEAKER_02]: A credible job of like the venue was beautiful like there was amazing merch.
[SPEAKER_02]: You just look like aesthetics You know, this could go like shallow, but I want to say like in a deep way It's like it was honoring of the way.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think God intended us to interact We're like this is beautiful.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is intentional all other name.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is curated.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it felt like a place that was like
[SPEAKER_02]: wonderfully prepared for what would happen there so I was just impressed when I got there I was like I came to speak but like you guys set up in a credible conference But that wasn't the that was just like oh wow broken his team of really good at their job It's like I grew a lot of conferences and this was like just a really quality, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: But here's the here's the big thing and it was actually the first thing I said on stage You'll probably remember yeah when we walked out to go on stage night one
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't really appreciate from seeing the conference tickets what it would feel like to have.
[SPEAKER_02]: I knew we had, you know, some like 600 plus dads signed up, but like walking out into like a room just like packed out of dads.
[SPEAKER_02]: I did not expect the feeling I had, like I immediately looked at them.
[SPEAKER_02]: and I did not see them.
[SPEAKER_02]: I saw all these children and all these wives and all these like honestly generations.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if I'd put it like a vision category, but it felt close to that where I saw something that no one else maybe was seeing.
[SPEAKER_02]: I felt like the Lord like this was like helping me see through the blinds.
[SPEAKER_02]: So to speak and see beyond what was happening and I walked out and I was like, Oh, these are 600 dads who if the spirit works over the next two days generations are going to be changed through them and then within two hours.
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought I started to see it coming true.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, by the end of that night one, and we kind of went, we went hard the first night.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was the theme of the conference was out of hiding and into holiness.
[SPEAKER_02]: We talked a lot about that first night about our darkness, the vices, the things we hide, the words of confession and honesty, a lot of confession.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I mean, one of my favorite parts was when you and I, we, when I asked you to confess and you cried because everybody was like, that was my favorite member of the night.
[SPEAKER_02]: Brooke crying on stage and saying, I want to be a better husband.
[SPEAKER_02]: Obviously, it was amazing.
[SPEAKER_02]: You remember that?
[SPEAKER_02]: Obviously, you remember that?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, remember that?
[SPEAKER_00]: Did you forget that?
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, my wife reminded me the other day.
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't skip.
[SPEAKER_00]: Remember when you said, no, she didn't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think what was one of my favorite parts and one of the things that actually value, is a person, but I love that you value this because it would not work if you didn't.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's hard to ask men, especially, to go somewhere that you, yourself, are not going.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's leadership.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think I know.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's leadership in general.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's life in general.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it was really hard for us to talk about confession, but then you and I not actually do this.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so one of the really stupid thoughts we had was why don't we confess to each other a lot of times?
[SPEAKER_02]: It was typically, or this was your thoughts.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was like, okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was like we should go first like this is me awkward.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but I also said we can't Tell each other before because I wanted to be sincere.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to know what confession is and I wanted to kind of be like you guys can listen in but this is gonna be a sincere moment
[SPEAKER_00]: But my wife was also in the room.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that was hard to because it was like I'm confessing this thing in my wife's in the room.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, but here kids were there too.
[SPEAKER_00]: Two of my kids were there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Two of my four.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And man.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, to be fair, my kids know my stuff and we talk openly about our weaknesses.
[SPEAKER_00]: So they weren't surprised as I can't we know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like this was not new for them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Nonetheless, I do think that those moments were just exponentially powerful and out of hiding into holding this that first night by the end of it like you're saying.
[SPEAKER_00]: There was just some windows and hearts cracked open.
[SPEAKER_00]: that I did.
[SPEAKER_02]: But by the end of that night one, I was like the spirit of God is moving in this room in a way that I just honestly have not experienced even in the past five, six years of writing and doing lots of conferences.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it sounds like a weird brag, what it's not just a part of my job.
[SPEAKER_02]: I go to a lot of conferences, I speak to a lot of places.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: This was categorically unique.
[SPEAKER_02]: Watching.
[SPEAKER_02]: So many of those men by the end of night one just what and we didn't even Plan this at all, but like people are organically walking to the front They're just kneeling at the stage crying crying with each other praying for each other.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: I remember I looked at you I was like I guess we should go out pray pray for that like yeah, but we didn't play it on this And I just and and here's the thing you know, then we did you know a day and a half more We did all day Friday and Saturday morning and it just didn't stop the amount of men Yes
[SPEAKER_02]: having experienced with the Lord, creating a new covenant friendship, crying and confessing, just getting new ideas and being like, I feel so much more empowered.
[SPEAKER_02]: I honestly left the conference broke thinking, this is what I want to do.
[SPEAKER_02]: over the next season.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I want to do more of these because if the spirits moving here, I want to go here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: So like, yeah, we need to do another one soon.
[SPEAKER_02]: Where do you all want us to do it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you want to stop?
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we just told you about dropping comments.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Tell us, because we actually want to do a lot of this, not right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Don't wait.
[SPEAKER_02]: By putting you on spot.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, you're not.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, hello at intentional fatherhood.org is where you can email that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Specifically, you can do it through social
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, no, we, we absolutely do.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think what is really interesting about this, excuse me, is I love that phrase.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't remember who said it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the moment I say, you'll know, but it's basically find where God's working and join them in the work you're doing, essentially.
[SPEAKER_00]: And what this feels like is a moment for this very, uh,
[SPEAKER_00]: last minute idea of doing a fatherhood thing together from the nudge of the spirit that God's obviously way more invested in.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think than even we knew he was or we were or are but we're becoming aware.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think what we feel now is stewardship like as we've talked.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: is a stewardship like whatever has happened is not because we've figured it out.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just that's Jesus and how it works.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think to answer your question.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, we want to follow the it through obedience where the Spirit's moving and it was undeniable from anybody that was there experience even the debrief with our team when we got back.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it was substantial, and it was really substantial.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just note on that, because this is, again, a little weird.
[SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, a couple guys came up, and we're like, this is the next promise keepers.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is the next focus on the family.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's actually nice.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah
[SPEAKER_02]: Where are the spaces where men would come together, get called to repentance, get prepped to go back, because actually, I came back and told my friends, Steven Matt, hey guys, you're probably listening.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was like, guys, we need to sit down and talk.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just had one of the most unique spiritual experiences I've had in years, and you guys weren't
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, like mountain of transfiguration, like high, like, you know, thin realm, thin places, spiritual experience.
[SPEAKER_02]: And none of my friends and family were there.
[SPEAKER_02]: So like, you, I was so jealous.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was like, you're wife and two of your kids were there.
[SPEAKER_00]: My best, my soul friend.
[SPEAKER_00]: Your soul.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, one of your covenant friends was there.
[SPEAKER_02]: So anyway, I came back and I was like, Steve, we got to sit down and talk.
[SPEAKER_02]: We got to do this.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was like, you need to know about this and what's happening.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I felt like it was one of those breakthrough calling moments.
[SPEAKER_02]: another idea.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm a little ADHD today.
[SPEAKER_02]: We need to do a season soon on just work and vocation, like calling, like how to how to grind, how to push, how to find you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because one of the things I felt was like, I actually, one of the guys gave me this metaphor.
[SPEAKER_02]: He was like, you know, sometimes like work feels like you're just pushing a boulder up a hill.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just grind grind
[SPEAKER_02]: But when this spirit of God moves in your work, it's like you finally hit the top of the hill.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you don't know it yet.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: But suddenly it's like, oh, the boulders like lighter.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then suddenly it's like, wait, the boulders moving without me.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then it's like, oh, I have to sprint to catch up with this boulder.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a good, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what I felt like at the conference.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was like, I work at writing and speaking all the time.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's a grind.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I do feel like I'm moving forward.
[SPEAKER_02]: But at the at the conference, I was like,
[SPEAKER_02]: this is getting away from me.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is getting beyond me.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I felt like a moment where the spirit was saying, like, yeah, because I'm here now.
[SPEAKER_02]: So keep doing it, but you're going to have to chase the bulldozer now.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then so when people were like, this is the next, you know, focusing on the family conferences or promiscuous conferences, I was like, yeah, that's a little bit too, too high of a.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's pretty grand to say.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's grandiose, but it felt dignifying because I was like, this is beyond us.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: And whatever we saw that we can, like we've just got to do more of them because we need to chase the boat.
[SPEAKER_02]: If the Lord's moving, we got to chase the border.
[SPEAKER_00]: couldn't agree more.
[SPEAKER_00]: The other thing that may be to say it in the same way about, you know, the grandiose phrase, each in the time belt that we all exist, there are different movements and iterations.
[SPEAKER_00]: So let me just be hyper clear.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just and I are not being like, we are self-proclaimed doing this new thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: What we're saying is there's a significant piece to this that is not our own doing and we will not claim that it is ours and please call us out if you ever,
[SPEAKER_00]: the point being that it's a, I think what that phrase indicates is, it was special, just because those, those things that happened, the two that you mentioned promise keepers, folks on the family, they're special.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, like the Lord was moving in those things, it changed so many people still, or to, you know, I mean, I don't know where promise keepers is at, but like as far as the other one, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the point really isn't where, you know, how we could see ourselves in it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's basically to just kind of to scale back and say, it was significant and it mattered and the conversations that we had post were just and still going ongoing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Have just been staggering.
[SPEAKER_00]: The transformation is the only word that is make sense and that is used in almost every single, you know, next phrase.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was significant.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was.
[SPEAKER_02]: So tons of people the whole time One of my favorite parts which they would come up with like same more about This that like we got so many good questions, but you so one of the things I love that we did was you know out of hiding it into holiness It was big time like deep confession.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's go deep that first night.
[SPEAKER_02]: But second day, you know we talked about
[SPEAKER_02]: physical disciplines, we talk about work, work, vocation, marriage, family, you know, leaving legacies, intentional parenting, just all things.
[SPEAKER_02]: And people would come up with so many different topics and ask questions.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we got a bunch of bunch of questions.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, we did not answer, which we need to do now, we're going to do that and one more thing just to close the loop on this, I think maybe just to say as far as the conference goes, let us know, when I say let us know, I mean like we we put something on social media, we'll have a link in the show notes here, but basically if you're a church that is interested in hosting one of these events, will you let us know?
[SPEAKER_00]: Click the link in the show notes.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's basically like where where you guys at what's your venue capacity?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it something you can partner with us by helping us by not charging us and seeing a amount of money to do these and or nothing?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because truth we told intentional is a nonprofit and we are doing this in different spaces.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I want to say one more thing to all the fathers listening into some of our sweet mothers who are listening here and your ladies you're always welcome to listen.
[SPEAKER_00]: is we have an intentional motherhood retreat and so just like intentional has our fatherhood retreat my wife and her mom and a host of wonderful folks and wonderful amazing female communicators do this for moms and so if you're listening here as a husband and you're like I want my wife to experience that April 23rd to the 24th in Frank Lentonisi is the next one you can grab tickets for that you haven't gone to these before you're gonna be like me like oh whoa
[SPEAKER_02]: Broke and his team put on incredible conferences.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're gonna love it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, no, it's it's it gives our team is amazing I think one of my favorite things is just getting to see you meet the whole team and it's like a kid in the can I look at this Did you make this my favorite you had you made t-shirts?
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't know we had t-shirts
[SPEAKER_00]: And by the way, Merch, we're figuring out how to, we have some back here.
[SPEAKER_00]: The Merch is so good.
[SPEAKER_00]: The Merch is so, first run, we'll get more.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I was going to say the thing that, I remember when you came on stage, my favorite thing, you said, I laughed so hard, because I didn't know what to do with it.
[SPEAKER_00]: But you're like, I didn't realize how good at your job you were.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, I had the most underhanded compliment.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think I've ever done anything to say to you this month, the most back in the column as you always likes you.
[SPEAKER_02]: But now I respect you.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're like, you're like, you're job.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't.
[SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't trying to impress you, B. I wasn't doing anything but just doing what I was called to do.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I wrapped this up because I want to pitch in here.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was so significant.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was so good.
[SPEAKER_02]: The bolder felt like, oh my gosh, it's rolling on the hill.
[SPEAKER_02]: We want to do more of these.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we want to do them in different places.
[SPEAKER_02]: This was very West Coast.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I had so many people like my friends because I'm East Coast.
[SPEAKER_02]: Be like.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, you know, that was just hard to part of travel hard to travel like when are you going to do an east coast and had so many people But like when are you going to Southeast when are you going to do New York when are you going to Texas when are you going to Midwest and Yeah, if you if you all give us a place.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, we'll come do it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well, and you know, I'm making sure it's the right place.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, but yeah, yeah, so tell Brooke and his team I want to do what I want to do and I love going to see the people in Texas.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love Texas.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, Virginia this Virginia loves to my wife is Texan
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, um, my son.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Don't tell anybody their Dallas Cowboys fans.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I'll keep it here.
[SPEAKER_02]: I really want to go to Texas.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_02]: I also really want to do Southeast, probably New York, DC.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Those are all places that we want to strategically go.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you are a decision maker, key decision maker or no key decision maker at these different spots, these churches, we would love to just let us know.
[SPEAKER_00]: We would love to talk to you about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk about questions.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: So dudes, listening in and moms, I'm going to say it's right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is absolutely for you to listen to but if you are listening to this in those kids around you might just want to be aware that these topics are going to get just there's we had a lot of questions about sex In specifically masturbation.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we it just was you know It was I was so glad you didn't give the mom's time to censor there if they were listening with their kids you just want to do it They if they did they I said it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean you can't use like five second one
[SPEAKER_00]: just have like what's the the music for when the Jeffrey music like hey Miles can we put that in where you just pause it's like the whole song and then note that it's coming um but you guys so yeah trigger wanting some some of these questions were mature we will give uh yes honest answers and to be fair you know a lot of these uh
[SPEAKER_00]: a lot of these questions, what I was really grateful for, and this is all jokes aside.
[SPEAKER_00]: We did press the guys after the first day once we saw questions coming in that were pretty.
[SPEAKER_00]: They were good, but you could tell like, that wasn't the only thing everyone was dealing with and a lot of the times people have to feel permission to be safe enough to share their question.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the nice thing is,
[SPEAKER_00]: these were all very these are all what's the right word we don't know they're anonymous we don't know the you know we don't know names connected to it so that's good so they started asking real questions yeah and i mean we also just special shout out joe yodam too he just he hosted the
[SPEAKER_00]: Good and a bit more legendary.
[SPEAKER_00]: So many things to know, but Joey just as you're listening to this.
[SPEAKER_00]: I hope you are.
[SPEAKER_00]: You better be listening to this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like what a what a gift.
[SPEAKER_00]: Show you amazing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a future as a like a improv comic.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I mean, great speaker on technology.
[SPEAKER_02]: Bring a man.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you show the story on technology.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just both of the first question.
[SPEAKER_01]: Go ahead.
[SPEAKER_02]: You have a first question.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, we'll go ahead before we go.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, no.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I was just going to say, I actually, I would kick it off with one of the questions that I got the most from people walking up to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's do it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, because I don't think this was asked publicly if I can't remember it yet, I've said so many guys come up to me and ask how do you keep your vocation within its boundaries?
[SPEAKER_02]: particularly during the younger years of parenting.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think it was because I talked about a lot about law firm and a vote of legal, which is the new law firm that I'm running.
[SPEAKER_02]: We like merged in a bunch of new partners.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're growing and my life is getting more complicated and not less on the legal front, which is great.
[SPEAKER_02]: But so many dads were like, so how do you, I love my job?
[SPEAKER_02]: I love it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like you, I'm prone to work too much and too hard.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so
[SPEAKER_02]: I got a lot of questions that put family almost against an intention with vocation.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so anyway, I wanted to say, if you feel like you love your job and you're prone to be a workaholic and a lot of senses, that's actually a good start because you love what the Lord has called you to do.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I actually really want to affirm it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like lots of guys were embarrassed or felt like guilty because they really love working.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, oh, no, no, no, no, that's how God made you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, you're, I love lowering.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I love doing a transaction.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love solving a deal, I love papering an investment, like doing a negotiation, I love it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm, I'm clearly made to love it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so my advice to a lot of them was set up the guardrails that protect your life and scripture.
[SPEAKER_02]: And these are all the things that we've talked about, almost add nausea on this podcast.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, set up your devotional rhythm.
[SPEAKER_02]: Usually it's scripture before fun for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not an Aussie, it's important.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, you can't say too much.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, set up your family dinner rhythm, set up a date night rhythm with your wife, set up a health rhythm.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: So when you get into the place where, oh, I've got a guard rail in the morning.
[SPEAKER_02]: I always spend time in scripture.
[SPEAKER_02]: I got a guard rail in the evening.
[SPEAKER_02]: I always turn off my phone and be with my kids.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've got a guard rail on the week.
[SPEAKER_02]: I always have time with my wife.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've got a guard rail in my embodied life.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm exercising.
[SPEAKER_02]: within those guardrails, you can then drive really fast and hard because you're protected.
[SPEAKER_02]: And these kinds of spiritual disciplines, just the wisdom and the virtues that you get of reading the Bible, like, oh, here's how the good life is laid out.
[SPEAKER_02]: You can then love work and work really hard and go and drive that car really fast because you're going to be protected.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're going to hit the guard wheel.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's going to push you back.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like bumper lanes, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So I just want to encourage dads with that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like you're made to love work.
[SPEAKER_02]: So work really hard, but do set up your guard wheels.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, great wisdom.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's no such thing as a true work life balance.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, that doesn't really exist, meaning like that work and life are going to have their lanes and they're going to obey.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like that doesn't, you have to be constantly in a fluid sense have the guardrails, but then also be open to the reality that seasons change deeply.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's why this season of kids, you're going to do less with your work.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's times where you just, sometimes naming that can just give you such relief because it doesn't mean you're not going to be excelling in your career.
[SPEAKER_00]: It just means that's what you need to give more of your life to right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it matters 10x more.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just when we're trying to compete against these things.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I've always just be careful to pit them against one another.
[SPEAKER_00]: Life is not against work, works on against life.
[SPEAKER_00]: it's important to honor both and sometimes you'll do that really well and a lot of the times it will be the stance that you get to hold and men that's one of the gifts God's given you and strength like when we talk about strength of a man obviously there's a physicality to that there's also a reality that you are given broader shoulders in some senses to hold things that's not every other family member can right now that doesn't mean our sisters
[SPEAKER_00]: and our wives are not incredibly strong.
[SPEAKER_00]: You are strong in ways that we will never be.
[SPEAKER_00]: But that's our particular role to hold.
[SPEAKER_00]: And just like a mom can hold roles that honestly is a father.
[SPEAKER_00]: I could never hold.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I see this dynamic.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you do, too, with our wives all the time, where she can just hold things that I am like, I don't have the capacity, the grace, the ability for that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's okay, like you don't have to compete.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let her run her lane, let her run her lane.
[SPEAKER_00]: And likewise, men are uniquely suited to hold this weight and to be able to nuance it and to just sometimes, I mean absorb.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're in a good thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: The word absorbing is such a good word.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I'm talking about?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no, I, even you saying that, honestly, I really like you broke.
[SPEAKER_02]: You just made me go dignified.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like honestly, you saying that made me feel dignified because so often I come home from a day of the office where I'm like, even if I tried.
[SPEAKER_02]: to communicate to my wife and kids what happened.
[SPEAKER_02]: They wouldn't understand the nuances of like corporate transactional law.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, oh, I had a major win in this negotiation.
[SPEAKER_02]: Or like, you won't believe this deal we got closed.
[SPEAKER_02]: Or like, I had a really contentious talk with this client over their bill.
[SPEAKER_02]: Or like, this contract fell apart.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, there's so much I want to share with them that I can't.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then like, are we making
[SPEAKER_02]: payroll like how's the law firm performing like is this going to be okay is everybody going to get fed is you know yeah um there's all these burdens that i like shoulder yeah and i could bring them into the house and just like stew on them and let them weigh on me but i'm like oh
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to be understood when I come home, but mostly, actually, I just have to serve.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Actually, my wife wants to tell me all about her day.
[SPEAKER_02]: And guess what?
[SPEAKER_02]: I can understand those things because I used in her realm.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: But she doesn't as much exist in my realm.
[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, I want that to happen more, so I don't want to stay here.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I'm just saying, that's a big burden.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, and men are actually uniquely suited, I think, to say,
[SPEAKER_02]: I just had a hell of a day, and nobody really knows about it, but now I'm going to show to the burden at home.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's strength.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's strength.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's actually the gift of being a dad.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's what I think what you're saying.
[SPEAKER_00]: It couldn't agree more.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're saying it's okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I agree.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's absolutely, you're not.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, don't become a victim in your mindset with that.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's no.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, you don't take it that way.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, you're not saying that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm saying like I could see men being like, I think where you could get really, you know, tripped up in that is thinking, that's my job to absorb all the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm the one.
[SPEAKER_00]: And no, no, it's actually your job to absorb.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's one of the things you're made to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's one of your gifted strengths that you have what it gives you give your family.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now that doesn't mean your needs don't matter and you shouldn't share them.
[SPEAKER_00]: You shouldn't find times to communicate.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: But there's so many times when I'm like, yeah, I can't.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're not going to be talking about that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's my job to go like,
[SPEAKER_00]: Do I actually need that or do I just prefer that right now?
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's a lot of times when I have to go preferences That I can't I cannot idealize or always have my preferences right, but I can Rukhua I can say hey here's my needs But my needs are very different than my preferences like a preference to have sex every day.
[SPEAKER_00]: That'd be great My need is to maybe once or twice a week right like
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I might have a different need to have a better idea.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
[SPEAKER_00]: our goal is like at the end of the day or when I come home to have 10 or 15 minutes ideally to just like catch up on the day like where we at what's our 15 minute touch point to where how are you what's happening emotionally what kid did this to who who is just going to get who's going
[SPEAKER_00]: Who's in trouble?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like all the things.
[SPEAKER_00]: What did I say accidentally through text that made you frustrated like what are you gonna give us all the goodies.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk about it So anyway, but I love that question.
[SPEAKER_00]: I couldn't agree.
[SPEAKER_00]: I give us some more.
[SPEAKER_00]: We'll say here's a couple of funny ones.
[SPEAKER_00]: Can we rebrand to the daddy's retreat?
[SPEAKER_00]: No Yeah, I don't think they were really asking good good thing
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a real question.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, um, wow, oh, here's what this is good.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is the same person, um, they're funny, but they're also really serious.
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, how do I confess if my wife does not feel like a safe place to land?
[SPEAKER_00]: Ha.
[SPEAKER_00]: I need a lot more context on that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Of course, but we won't have it.
[SPEAKER_00]: But let's call this number.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's very fun.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, I mean, I'm going to just let me nuance a little to help.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, maybe give like a little background.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm thinking like you're, let's just use an example.
[SPEAKER_00]: You are wanting to confess that you have been not as honest with your wife.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe it's around purity, a very easy one that I think a lot of men struggle with is.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you've been less full or looked at pornography or something like this, you were feeling the way to that.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know you want her to know.
[SPEAKER_00]: You want to talk about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: But you don't feel like she's going to be able to be a safe place to land, meaning she's not going to handle that well.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's going to go to shame.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is my problem with that question.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what safe place to land means.
[SPEAKER_02]: What do you think that means?
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's a safe place, meaning that she, I mean, we're guessing here so for wrong, but this is where we're going to take it because we don't have more context.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is a person that can hold that with the appropriate amount of grace and forgiveness, but also accountability.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that they're not going to take that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Throw it in your face in the future or use it to hurt you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe in the information or shame.
[SPEAKER_02]: So let's we can go that angle we know I just feel like this is where this is probably Tangential to the question, but I think that's worth new on saying the word safe is It's a tricky one.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a tricky one.
[SPEAKER_02]: These people are using it in ways that it's like I don't feel emotionally safe and yeah different people what do you mean yeah like you know but so yes if
[SPEAKER_02]: Given what you said, I think, and probably with this question, we're probably talking about sexual sin.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just going to guess.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, my first and my primary answer, we talked about this a lot, the first side of the conference, is you've got to find covenant friends who you can be very specifically honest to and that are going to both give you grace and go and give you truth and call you forward.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like that kind of, and when, after you've done that,
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow, not weather.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but how to bring it to your spouse.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because she likely needs less specific specificity But she does need to know what's what's happened.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, depending on what's happening.
[SPEAKER_02]: Obviously this was like a fair level She needs like she needs no a lot a lot more.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, that's a it's a whole long category But if this is just like lust and maybe pornography
[SPEAKER_02]: And your friends or counselor will help you to bring it to her in a way that is healthy.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I don't know what safe means, but it's got to hurt her.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is the problem.
[SPEAKER_02]: Your scent does hurt your spouse.
[SPEAKER_02]: So don't expect a perfect response when you've been screwing everything up.
[SPEAKER_02]: You need like get ready for her to be a little bit screwed up because you screwed up.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, there's so much grace, but it's just a long road.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was going to say, did you have to agree with you that question feels to me like you would love sin without consequence?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's like I've been I've been screwing everything up, but I expect a perfect response.
[SPEAKER_00]: But like, yeah, but I own it, you know, like, yeah, you own it, but the consequences sin.
[SPEAKER_00]: can look very different in that situation.
[SPEAKER_00]: It can look like you very much ruffled up a dynamic with your spouse that she has to feel and it almost feels like you want to see without the consequence.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the truth is, you're seeing, you are now soul-emashed.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's gonna impact your spouse.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: or stupidity or, or, or blessing is going to both positively negatively, negatively affect your spouse.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's absolutely true.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: He has maybe a good blunt way to say it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, say it.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're not entitled to a safe space with your spouse.
[SPEAKER_02]: Can we have a fight?
[SPEAKER_02]: Can we get that on the microphone one?
[SPEAKER_02]: Good.
[SPEAKER_02]: Pot.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're not, it's,
[SPEAKER_02]: marriage is about two centers being together and working through sanctification.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're not it's not like, oh, I don't have a safe space So I don't have to do this.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, you have to work it out with the broken center that is your spouse and vice versa I would nuanced this a lot if I was talking to a woman.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was able to say like there's a little bit of a emotional abuse or like physical safety is like okay, actually
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, from the, I'm saying the same thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was going to say the same thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: I be talking specifically from the like, it's, your sin is going to hurt her and you're not entitled to like a safe space when you confess this.
[SPEAKER_02]: What you need to do is work through it to a healthy space.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's going to be hard and messy and take a long time to do it.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right.
[SPEAKER_02]: What's the next question?
[SPEAKER_02]: That was a vague, but very interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that is hard to, you're going to just guess, here's a financial question.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, like I like financial questions, you're burning cash flow every month keeping your business and family alive in a down season.
[SPEAKER_00]: How do you find peace?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's hard.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's really hard.
[SPEAKER_02]: When we talked about the unique ability of men to absorb, yeah, a lot of hard work.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: So care for the family.
[SPEAKER_02]: I actually find this is the place where they are the weakest in doing that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I know about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because when you, what do you mean the weakest in your words?
[SPEAKER_00]: I read about finances.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I have a couple of thoughts on this, but I want to worry about finances, meaning it's hard to absorb.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's hard, particularly hard for men to absorb financial stress when they feel it's up to them and they're like, they're burning cash, they're worried if they're going to make budget.
[SPEAKER_02]: Especially, it sounds like a small business owner.
[SPEAKER_02]: Probably.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm one.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't think that I had struggles with worrying about money or idols in that area until I started running my own business.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it was just a lot more pressure than I thought too.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we were in a non-profit.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, our world exists upon people giving money to make it happen.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you got it, too.
[SPEAKER_02]: So my honest answer is actually very simple.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I have a thought you think in prayer and conversation with other people has really helped me not shoulder the burden alone.
[SPEAKER_02]: So one, I just realized I actually really do need to pray this out.
[SPEAKER_02]: And Psalm 23 has been so meaningful to me and the context of like money.
[SPEAKER_02]: The Lord is my shepherd.
[SPEAKER_02]: I shall not want like the idea that I'm worried about caring for all these
[SPEAKER_02]: He's going to do a super concerned with caring about me and others.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just really helped.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then being really honest with friends, you have to be obviously confidential with your business information to some extent.
[SPEAKER_02]: But to tell friends, like here's what I'm worried about, it helps take the burn off my shoulder.
[SPEAKER_02]: So like, if you're holding it in, you are probably going to implode.
[SPEAKER_02]: But if you're speaking it out in prayer and speaking it out to other friends, I've found this stress be much more bearable.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, man.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, it's interesting, because that's one angle.
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of the time's financial stress is, and you're just, no, no one likes to hear this, but this is the truth.
[SPEAKER_00]: It comes down to a lack of trust, and it's not usually about money, it's about safety.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, so, I think you're right, but just to nuance it, like, well, because I have the time, like, angers a secondary emotion.
[SPEAKER_00]: like more angry.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's how you can be angry and not sin because there's times when you're angry, it's a beautiful righteous anger.
[SPEAKER_00]: But anger is a secondary emotion, meaning there's something always under the surface of anger.
[SPEAKER_00]: So in the primary emotion world that this is truth, this is psychology, this is not I did make that up, you can still look this out.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can check it on the internet.
[SPEAKER_00]: Your face looks like her.
[SPEAKER_00]: Are you serious?
[SPEAKER_02]: No, actually, I'm going to explain my face in a minute.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, we'll face you talking.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and yeah, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think a lot of the times when it comes to financial stuff especially, it messes with our safety, which then may mess with our trust.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I have found in my life any time I am stressing about money.
[SPEAKER_00]: I am not trusting that God actually can and will take care of me like he said he would.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is how I would encourage you to think objectively, man asking this question, have you actually ever truly gone without?
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, have you not had your preferences, has it not been ideal, has it been stressful?
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not talking about that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Have your kids missed a meal?
[SPEAKER_00]: Have you not been able to really take care of them?
[SPEAKER_00]: Or is it the fear that that might not be able to be easily sustained for the future?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I would say when I've done that practice, I've quickly realized it is fear of the future, which is rooted in lack of trust versus God providing now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now is it stressful as I'll get out?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Am I overwhelmed at every moment?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: And to Justin's point, you have to have an outlet to give that to God.
[SPEAKER_00]: Realizer said it.
[SPEAKER_00]: He was on the podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: What a gentleman he was.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what you said.
[SPEAKER_00]: He did it.
[SPEAKER_00]: One of my favorite quotes is, if you don't pray, you will become either habitually obsessed with your own ego or you'll be depressed.
[SPEAKER_00]: Those are the options.
[SPEAKER_00]: You'll be completely self-isolated depressed or you will be over-top Eric and no one will want to be with you.
[SPEAKER_00]: prayer is a psychological recenturing of your soul and your body and your spirit and if you don't do it You're gonna be a mess all the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: We all are when we don't do it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, um, in our boy We're about to do a wonderful talk in which Shane our boy broke out his rosary at dinner the other night.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's just like going through the rosary
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, yes, yes, like this is what it is.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's dealing with his anxiety in real time.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is such a, I don't know, a sneak trailer for the next part of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't really lose your mind.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can say anything more.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know.
[SPEAKER_02]: You have to wonder what that's about.
[SPEAKER_02]: But can I explain my face a minute again?
[SPEAKER_02]: I do, oh, yes, I'm done.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what I want to hear.
[SPEAKER_02]: That was actually extremely helpful.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because as you said that, I was sort of feeling a little convicted.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was like, oh, wait.
[SPEAKER_02]: Here, right, I should probably think a little deeper on this question.
[SPEAKER_02]: When I wrestle with money, what is actually going on is I'm worried about who people will think that I am if I fail here.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I take a lot, I take a lot, Brooke.
[SPEAKER_02]: I need to admit this.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because that it's not all bad.
[SPEAKER_02]: I could frame it two ways.
[SPEAKER_02]: I take a lot of dignity and providing well for my family.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, I honestly, like my wife often would say, thank you, like one of the most meaningful things that she says to me is she's like, thank you so much for working hard and providing for us.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like it like makes my I get a little tear.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like it makes my day.
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel so I feel like a king when she's part of one of the things you made to do.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no, and I do like, I feel like the king of the world when my queen comes and says, like, thank you for working hard for us.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, and I, I just take a lot of dignity from, you know, yeah, running a business and I realized the, the shadow side of that is that I take a lot of identity from that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Who would I be if I failed my family like who would I be if my business fell apart?
[SPEAKER_02]: Who would I be if actually I can't do this after all like everybody thought I can do this I can't and actually when you were just saying that was like, oh, this is actually a little bit darker I'm not worried about not having food.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not worried about not paying my mortgage.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not worried about not covering the kids, you know, school tuition.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not worried about
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm worried about who am I, if I can't make this work, which is a question of pride.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, yeah, the shadow side of this is that I actually, I think I'm pretty great and I'm worried if it cracked, what would it be, what would I be.
[SPEAKER_02]: So actually, I feel very convicted by that, I give you, you had the better answer here.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, well, it's not a competition, but your answer actually helped me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, well, things are saying no.
[SPEAKER_00]: I do think though that's where peace comes from.
[SPEAKER_00]: When you know where your source of actual life comes from, when you recognize that you aren't actually, I mean, just think about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Think about the amount of control we actually have over our lives and situations.
[SPEAKER_02]: it's almost zero.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's pretty comically.
[SPEAKER_00]: Even our kids like I tell my kids now and I don't know this is great advice or bad, but I'm doing it and I actually do think I'm leaning towards agreeing that it's great advice.
[SPEAKER_00]: Even till I'm my son like listen, I can't make you do anything.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're bigger than me now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now I can freaking kill you if I needed to.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not going to do that because you might say that I don't whip you or yeah, I'm not going to because I don't like prison and I like you like these are things that I'm not going to do, but I can't make you obey, but here's what I can do, I will tell you what life looks like in very vivid detail when you do and what it looks like when you don't.
[SPEAKER_00]: and you get to choose.
[SPEAKER_00]: And for all of us, you get to choose.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you choose trust today that God's actually going to provide even that you can't see away through?
[SPEAKER_00]: You can choose that or you can choose fear, anxiety, depression.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just telling you one is good, one's not and you know which one it is.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think that's an important detail.
[SPEAKER_00]: Can I just share one tiny story on this note that changed all of this for me?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, a moment in my life it changed all of it for me and it just kind of took this.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's still there but the heavy heavy part of it just felt like, oh, God will held it in a different way than it was before.
[SPEAKER_00]: When we were, so we've gotten to ministry really young, got buried at 21 years old.
[SPEAKER_00]: Prefrontal cortex was not even developed when I was deciding to marry my wife, pick a vocation, have children.
[SPEAKER_02]: Isn't it bizarre yet yet you picked a great wife.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's you did you think you had enough cortex to pick that well Or maybe it was just for out of my league, but you know, so my favorite part of the one of my favorite parts of the retreat was that Elizabeth came and basically she came up to speak and she She did so good in this so well, but she did for why like four things your wives really need you to know Yeah, and we've had so many guys like can you really suck hours in you're like what thing about
[SPEAKER_00]: but now you got to come to the next one.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, she she got a standing ovation before she got on stage all the dudes stand up and are just It was so sweet, but you know, we were young and we were planting churches and we were in the Portland area and we were probably the church planting space for about seven years or so and the churches we were a part of planting, they were growing and there's like three different campuses.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we just had this itch like there's something else there's something here like I'm 20 728 years old I'm like almost 30 have two kids and I'm ready to run and this is I've done this already I have this dump like you know just youthful ignorance really among the team of this guy who's a who's a friend He's the lead pastor at that point.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm the executive pastor associate pastor and I'm like dude I'm gonna I think it's time to like switch this up, you know, but I didn't have a job or anything But I just kind of started to talk with him.
[SPEAKER_00]: So he quickly is like
[SPEAKER_00]: This guy's here, but he's not going to be here, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: He starts to realize like, this is not going to be great for long.
[SPEAKER_00]: I start talking to my buddy, Tim Chatek who's a, he was a pastor of the church co-reality all day at the time and we start talking and he's like, dude, I'd love, you know, I'd love to have you come down here.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's going to be a cool situation and I was like, awesome, but they were not at a place to receive me yet and I, it wasn't necessarily a job interview as much as it was just like,
[SPEAKER_00]: kind of exploring is this a thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I get like way over my skis in this whole thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, I think we're going to be moving.
[SPEAKER_00]: All this happens.
[SPEAKER_00]: And as the story goes, I literally tell my guy who I'm working with.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I don't know what I'm going to be out, but I'm going to be kind of out soon.
[SPEAKER_00]: I get a call from Tim like, hey, this is great, but this is so you're leaving your job without having a job.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he's like, hey, this is great, but this isn't happening for, you know, six months to a year, because we just can't, we, this, we're not a stage to, you know, hire
[SPEAKER_00]: crap, you know, but then hoops.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then, and I called, I called a couple people.
[SPEAKER_00]: One of these old guys that I just love and and I said, man, I just basically got myself out of a job unintentionally.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't have a job to go to, but it stirred my soul and I'm like so ready to be out of my current situation.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, this is a lot of immaturity, a lot of shadow sized stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't even know I was working with there.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't recommend any of this.
[SPEAKER_00]: The story's going a little long, but I'm going to abbreviate for importance.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm here.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's it.
[SPEAKER_00]: We go to we get this stir and and Tim had said he said dude But if you want to move down here and like just be a part of the church you could do that and I was like that's an option I mean, it's not about that, but like what am I going to do is it come into the page again the answer was no like and he was gracious to like He wasn't saying no to me just like I can't give you a job.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was very honest.
[SPEAKER_00]: I appreciated the honesty so we at that moment kind of were like
[SPEAKER_00]: Almost like let's silly spiritual language like let's lay out a fleece and so I decided to take a flight down to LA and we made this decision I was like if I can get enough part-time jobs to live and an apartment that our family feels safe in in LA Like God if you can provide that in this mini trip that I go on I think it's enough for us to maybe say yes to try this out because I don't think we can stay here and good Conscious our spirit moved on
[SPEAKER_00]: This is not smart.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like none of this is smart.
[SPEAKER_00]: So wait, wait for the end.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we we decide.
[SPEAKER_00]: I go down to LA.
[SPEAKER_00]: My buddy gives me a point to fly a ticket.
[SPEAKER_00]: John Newfield.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, you are.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: He gave me some of his airline points to go to this.
[SPEAKER_00]: I go down.
[SPEAKER_00]: I get a job at interview to Starbucks in ministry at these larger churches.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I'm all of a sudden finding myself interviewing at a Starbucks in a dry cleaner.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't know that existed FYI, and the smells competing were absolutely insane.
[SPEAKER_00]: I could not believe like this existed, and I'm singing LA, and I'm like, what am I doing with my life?
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, I get a job of part-time job as a bus boy at this restaurant, a rad restaurant in silver like, because they wouldn't give me a way to job because I didn't have a food handler's permit.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I literally then get another job at this beer and sausage place, great food, downtown LA in like the arts district, called the Verscuca, and I get these two jobs, and I find an apartment, I tour the apartments, a one bedroom apartment in LA, that this other guy had said, I think there might be room in this space, it's hard to get apartments in LA, by the way.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the fact that I was able to see it and potentially put it deposit on it was all amazing.
[SPEAKER_00]: I go back to my wife.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, we have two part-time jobs in one bedroom apartment,
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Should we do this?
[SPEAKER_00]: She's like, I think like we both were like, I think we're supposed to say yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Really?
[SPEAKER_00]: She what?
[SPEAKER_00]: She said yes to that?
[SPEAKER_00]: How many kids did you have to?
[SPEAKER_00]: Only two, but let me just tell you then in the story.
[SPEAKER_00]: We decided we cashed out our, what was it?
[SPEAKER_00]: We had like maybe $6,000, I think, in vacation that we accrued when we quit when I left my job.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I had like a little $6,000 of FYI nothing.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's gonna go real fast than LA.
[SPEAKER_00]: Especially with, and so it was basically so here was the deal.
[SPEAKER_00]: We decided to move down.
[SPEAKER_00]: and we decided to give it six months and we knew with these two part-time jobs and the savings that we had, we could probably go six months until we basically were in a like bad spot.
[SPEAKER_00]: We moved down.
[SPEAKER_00]: I started doing these two part-time jobs, making almost, I mean minimum wage at the time was eight twenty five for nothing.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was bad.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we knew that we're going to start going to the church.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to start building community and we're just going to see if this is like
[SPEAKER_00]: And we were on food stamps.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we did it all of it like all of a sudden I'm like fine, and then I'm living this life.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is Lord and I in law school.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we picked it.
[SPEAKER_00]: We picked it later and the long story short is that moment was so key for me because
[SPEAKER_00]: To the day, I remember praying, I was like, God, I don't know how I'm gonna like do this.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how is it gonna go.
[SPEAKER_00]: Two weeks before that six month mark, reality of a research is out like, hey, we don't have like a pastoral position, but we have like this need to help with like pre-mortal counseling.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you have a history in that?
[SPEAKER_00]: Can we like pay you to do that?
[SPEAKER_00]: And then quickly you're like, can you come on and be a community director?
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's not a full salary, but it's like a lot better than what it was.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then probably like a couple of months after that, it was like full time deal, Pastor Elder thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we were able to live and breathe finally.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was like an eight-month process.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't realize that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm telling you that story.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I do it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess stories But that said it was that moment for me that I realized like I Thought I was taking a risk God gave me a gift to being like dude if I never went without like never went without Did I have all my preferences?
[SPEAKER_00]: Did I have like unlimited vacation and PTO and abilities to go anywhere?
[SPEAKER_00]: No
[SPEAKER_00]: my kids but you're always provided my kids remember that is some of the most fond moments be it so many friends with Disneyland passes i mean they went to Disneyland all the time for free well you were a bus boy i was a bus boy i mean it was like it's a bit so i know this question kind of spawn you know spun to different things i just want to say though this might be for that guy listening the invitation to recognize you are already provided for it's already taken care of
[SPEAKER_00]: Of course, there's like extreme situations.
[SPEAKER_00]: Most of us are not in extreme situations.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're just scared that we could be that's good And I would have struggled with the identity in that season Well, you said you were 30.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I wasn't 30 yet.
[SPEAKER_00]: I turned 31.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was like actually so I mean, I won't go into it But actually Lauren and I moving back from China To start law school.
[SPEAKER_02]: She was pregnant.
[SPEAKER_02]: We had no money.
[SPEAKER_02]: That was with wit
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, our first son was born on Medicaid in D.C. Like, I didn't have the self-consciousness I have now then.
[SPEAKER_02]: Then I think I had, like, I mean, we were missionaries in China.
[SPEAKER_02]: We made nothing.
[SPEAKER_02]: We, you know, we had people were, you weren't necessarily expensive.
[SPEAKER_02]: My friends were starting to talk about their 401ks.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, what was his numbers and letters mean?
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, like, we just, we just, honestly, we started late.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, we started late because we just, we grounded, and we were poor.
[SPEAKER_02]: I loved it.
[SPEAKER_02]: We were wonderful.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I say that, you know, the nuance there is, we were poor, but we had, I was an incredible safety net a family.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we didn't worry in the way that some people might worry, but it was only after I started being successful as a lawyer that I started to get a fear of losing that success.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's like thinking back is very humbling, because I didn't need money to feel good about myself in my 20s.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think I could do that again because now I got identity issues wrapped up into like the career success and then which you just exposed and I guess we're happy to talk about that more so next question was hey you know what being able to name something and own it is beautiful so we all have our stuff dude so you're welcome okay
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, oh, this is, well, I'm just going to read, I haven't really even fully look, a lot of, a lot of people asked about masturbation.
[SPEAKER_02]: So after the next question, we actually do need to touch them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe we can't say touch them.
[SPEAKER_02]: Don't say touch them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's see.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, look up a question.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm trying.
[SPEAKER_00]: I get real time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is a question.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't even see.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's too big of a question.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, actually one of the things, maybe I'll just take one of the ones that has been about
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, actually, this will lead into that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so when we confess to our wife about sexual sin, how do you decide how much to include and what do you include?
[SPEAKER_00]: It feels different than soul friends, radical transparency.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, I think that's an easy one.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think your, your covenant friends, your pastor, your counselor, your therapist,
[SPEAKER_02]: Probably in that order too, actually.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I hope your friends in your past or maybe the closest or a spiritual mentor or the closest on this.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Specificity with them is really important for your confession and them calling you forward.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then honestly, just know it's going on your little life.
[SPEAKER_02]: They'll help you decide how specific you need to be with your spouse and the answer is probably a lot less specific.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think it's as much as his health.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the wisdom on that is a good way to put it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, because I have to say that because that's a little bit of my own story, although not extreme, but, you know, there was a season I've shared on this podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, man, we're running to pornography was something that I was using to cope with the very, very crazy stress of my life.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't realize he wanted what was doing, like, meaning why it was such a comfort and
[SPEAKER_00]: And so often, I have to say it's for any of the latest listenings, you know, often pornography is not even always about sex.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, of course, there's an element, yes, there's new ones, there's a bunch of things I'm not even talking about here.
[SPEAKER_00]: But a lot of it has to also do with comfort and connection, watching other people connect in a way that you wish you connect with your spouse.
[SPEAKER_00]: These are real things, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, that's not, there's no permission for that.
[SPEAKER_00]: It just means that it is a part of it, and I think all that is necessary.
[SPEAKER_00]: Some spouses might need more detail.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now that doesn't, I think you need to be fair and transparent, but I also think you need to have some discernment to know, there is a level of detail that is hard to hold for other human.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's a lot of it that's not actually helpful.
[SPEAKER_00]: So her curiosity cannot be the only metric because yeah, you'd be curious about this, this, and this, and honestly, you can, there's a line where it's like, that's not actually helpful.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's going to be hurtful.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's true.
[SPEAKER_02]: That answer book is really good even though it doesn't specifically help because this is a Like it doesn't give people like the specific what to share what not to share.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but I think your answer is probably as far as you can go and Solid like as much as his help.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, he's really different.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you're gonna have to figure out like it depends on like what we're talking about and and your friends and your pastor We'll help you decide and also she'll give you feedback.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's like I need
[SPEAKER_02]: She might say, I need more, like, what do we, what do we talking about here?
[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, maybe it's helpful.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, I just think of a funny story.
[SPEAKER_00]: That I'm not going to share right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I, yeah, I, I realized in real time, I can't share that story.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I, I would, I would stick though with the as much as helpful and ask your friends.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, all right.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, I, I, I don't want, I just want to answer this question because we got it a lot.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, go ahead.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I was going to, yeah, we're going to close, but multiple people asked, um, is masturbation acceptable?
[SPEAKER_00]: When you're thinking about your spouse, yeah, that was a very, that was a very big one.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I was kind of surprised, but also I'm not surprised.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I, yeah, I just want to, I want to push back on this because, um,
[SPEAKER_02]: the deeper that I got into theology of the body while writing the body to just the soul.
[SPEAKER_02]: The more I sort of started to realize what a problem disembodied in one way sexist.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we sort of obviously know it's a problem with pornography.
[SPEAKER_02]: We obviously know it's a problem with sort of habitual, lustful masturbation.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think you have people
[SPEAKER_02]: sex is difficult in marriage, you know, and a lot of people struggling with their sex life.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so there's a lot of genuine questions from guys who are like, I don't want to watch porn.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you know, I don't want to, you know, be habitually and lessfully masturbating.
[SPEAKER_02]: But like once in a while, that's some of the questions like, while I'm traveling or like, you know, is it okay to think of my wife?
[SPEAKER_02]: And, and I just,
[SPEAKER_02]: I remember one of the most significant things a spiritual mentor said to me when I was young was it to side of maturity when you stop asking what's wrong with something and you start asking what's right with something.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And any question that begins with is it okay or is it wrong to it's probably when you already have the answer to it?
[SPEAKER_00]: You're looking for permission.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah because it's not the best.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so this is different than saying like
[SPEAKER_02]: always know absolutely a sin, you know feel guilty.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I'm more I just want to pivot and say two things.
[SPEAKER_02]: You were made for embod and a life of embodied sexual union with your one covenant spouse.
[SPEAKER_02]: And anything short of that is just short of that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you don't want to be like living with permission sort of that.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot of grace like there's, you know, sex is difficult and it's hard and we're all going to make mistakes.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think the way I want to answer that question is I say, I want to say like you need to actually work through the difficulty and the tension.
[SPEAKER_02]: without like releasing it in masturbation or having sex with yourself and take that tension into working and practicing sex with your spouse, which is hard and it takes time so that seasons where like it's, you know, it's not happening right and it's not happening as much as you wish, but I also think this is, I hope this is very helpful for women listening, if they're moms listening.
[SPEAKER_02]: One of the things that we talked a lot about with the dads was like, you have you have must talked to your wife about what you what you what you need and like where you're at and like how you're feeling because the reality is the communication.
[SPEAKER_02]: Probably mom's sort of know, but maybe they don't really know like.
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, a healthy sex life is one of the core needs of a man.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, you're going to, life is going to be so hard for you if sex isn't going well.
[SPEAKER_02]: And one of the great gifts of a healthy sex life is that I think both partners, but particularly the man is put in a place where he can
[SPEAKER_02]: do so much more and be so much more present and loving and work better.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's so much men need there.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so working on that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like from the male side, my answer is like, I would say bear the tension.
[SPEAKER_02]: No instead working on practicing sex with your spouse.
[SPEAKER_02]: But from the female side, it would be like,
[SPEAKER_02]: He's struggling with a lot and anything that you can do to like move closer and say hey, we do need to work on this We do need to work on you know improving our sex life and more frequency and all this stuff You know, it's just so nuanced for everybody, but working on it together is what's so bright
[SPEAKER_00]: So well said and for the ladies listening in the men as well I don't even know if I told you this, but we just Elizabeth and I just did it will be out by the time it's comes out But just did a whole conversation Basically of like following up from the father of her treat on the topic of this because so many questions were asked a sex episode We did with her and I on our intentional parents podcast so link will be there.
[SPEAKER_02]: Is it out yet?
[SPEAKER_00]: It won't be, it will be out by the time it's comes out.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was going to say, I haven't heard.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, oh no, no, no, no, no.
[SPEAKER_00]: And what we tried to do there was both talk about some of this, but also go in from both perspectives.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, I mean, ladies, you're going to hear two men talking about this.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that is one side.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we're going to do our best all the way to the ones for husbands and wives.
[SPEAKER_00]: But that might just be a little bit more accessible.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, men, if you're listening, if you're curious about that, go check that out.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wives, if you're listening.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you, if you all didn't listen, go back to a couple of episodes and listen to Lauren.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Talk about this on our talk.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you miss Lauren's perspective on sex, it's probably very helpful too.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for joining me with that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Listen to our wives on this.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you're, if you're like, if you heard what I said, you're like, wait, I have questions.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have questions.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So listen to what he says.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's a, that was a great conversation.
[SPEAKER_00]: And wives and helpful and informative.
[SPEAKER_00]: The one detail, we don't need to answer more, but maybe just one other little angle to turn a light on to on this topic is, you know, we're always the question that you said, we're looking for permission in different ways.
[SPEAKER_00]: We want things to be black and white and we want things to be just clear and can I do this and can I not and can I do it all the way or can I not do it all the way?
[SPEAKER_00]: There's things like this that are that hold deep wisdom.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they hold deep discernment.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the story that I love.
[SPEAKER_00]: I shared it at the father of a tree, but it is a two-second story of a professor who is basically trying to talk about this in a Christian setting talking about his masturbation.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, and a kid raises his hands as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you masturbate and he gets really mad because he's like, how could you ask me that?
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm a professor and then realizing he's blowing up such an awkward
[SPEAKER_00]: Like what a pumpkin.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, he getting a not develop brain out of done that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, you know, you're telling trying to tell me like I just I mean, it's a good come back to a professor he's talking abstractly.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, okay, great.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but here you're theory, but like, do you struggle with this?
[SPEAKER_00]: So, so the guy starts shutting him down like how them inappropriate any stops in the professor realizes like,
[SPEAKER_00]: man if I really want to help these kids I need to I need to answer this question and so with you know if you're in trembling hands or I'm not the professor by the way and I'm not making this up this is someone else's story but um but he says sometimes I do and sometimes I don't and I've realized
[SPEAKER_00]: that I'm not, I'm not better for doing it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I've learned that it's good to hold tension and not give myself everything that I want when I want it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And to that point, I would just say, is it evil and sinful and crazy?
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there's some data that shows us right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not
[SPEAKER_00]: But is it all that good?
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think so.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the question becomes does it help you grow information to Jesus or does it take you away?
[SPEAKER_00]: Does it help you learn that not getting your way all the time is a good thing?
[SPEAKER_00]: The answer is yes, and it's much easier to go to masturbation for relief than work on your marriage.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's there's the summary of it all.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just it's not what's wrong with it.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's you know, is there anything right about it?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's so right to work to hold the tension and work it out with your spouse and to to say we are our answer is here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: And embodied union together.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's the escape, that is the detail.
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, is there things of travel sure?
[SPEAKER_00]: Can you, like, another question's like, if I have spikes, you why pictures of my wife on my phone?
[SPEAKER_00]: And she knows about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that okay?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, dude, I don't know, but I'm just telling you, I'm like, you know what I'm talking about?
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: And like, if you're looking for permission, like, if you guys, you know, all is safe.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the marriage bed is in a agreement situation, so like you guys got to figure that out and I'm not going to throw shade on anybody.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, I just know like that's not my dynamic, but that's also just because that's not my dynamic.
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't mean that can be yours and I think at the end of the day it is about communication is about being available to one another man.
[SPEAKER_00]: You need to
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you know, you don't get physical access without emotional vulnerability.
[SPEAKER_00]: You got to show up for what she needs.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's going to need you to be emotionally vulnerable in ways that you might not wish.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's a it's serving one another.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's very emotionally vulnerable to go to your wife and say, like, I'm struggling.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, yeah, I wish we had sex more.
[SPEAKER_02]: I wish we had sex better.
[SPEAKER_02]: I wish we were working on it.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's, you know, because you're losing, I need.
[SPEAKER_02]: But that's what's so good about it.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what's so good, and both the wife and husband.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we actually talked a lot about this at the retreat.
[SPEAKER_02]: You need to be honestly talking to your spouse often.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, about how things are going and what you need.
[SPEAKER_00]: We'll do.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have more questions coming in.
[SPEAKER_00]: Stay tuned for season three.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's common.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're orange.
[SPEAKER_00]: So from San Diego, Justin and I, we're out.
[SPEAKER_00]: We love it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's been, it's been great.
[SPEAKER_00]: Give us all the emails.
[SPEAKER_00]: Send us, if you have a church or a place, your decision make it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let us know.
[SPEAKER_00]: We'd love to know.
[SPEAKER_00]: And thanks for listening today.
[SPEAKER_00]: God bless y'all.
[SPEAKER_00]: See you.