[SPEAKER_01]: This episode is proudly brought to you by Bee Parents' Sergacy.
[SPEAKER_05]: Head to BeeParentSergacy.com to learn more.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, I told someone else like, if you bring your kid to my house and you're scared to sit on the rainbow color couch that I have downstairs, which I don't, it's like, well, don't sit on it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Go sit in the kitchen.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, you're not going to be gay leaving the house.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we're not going to make you gay.
[SPEAKER_03]: You're not going to try that easy.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's a different conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're out of gay to begin.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's be real.
[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome, welcome, welcome y'all to the queer family podcast, the show All About Family, but with gay.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm your gay host, Jamie, and this is the show that highlights celebrates coupliffs and normalizes.
[SPEAKER_01]: The legit particular family is in all of our fabulously beautiful identities.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this episode doesn't disappoint on that front, never does, never does.
[SPEAKER_01]: I got to sit down with Jamil.
[SPEAKER_01]: who is the host of a podcast called Father Nettox, where he dives into all things fatherhood.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he is a gay dad, clearly, because he's on the show.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he built his families through the foster to adopt system.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we get into that whole process.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we talk about raising kids and working through traumas and all kinds of things.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a really great episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I really enjoyed chatting with Jamil and I think you're going to enjoy all the things he had to say to.
[SPEAKER_01]: We had some good laughs in there too.
[SPEAKER_01]: All about parenting.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeps and downs of that parenting life.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you catch Madrid speaking of that parenting life, y'all, it never ends.
[SPEAKER_01]: So in this week's news at the Kelwood's house, my daughter, my 12-year-old, scratched her courtea at school yesterday, scratched her eye right across the ice, scratched it, and took her to the eye doctor.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yep, it's it's not great.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so she has this
[SPEAKER_01]: contact over the scratch that's supposed to act like a band aid and she has to put this is where this is where the kicker is y'all.
[SPEAKER_01]: She has to put antibiotic drops in her eye every hour until the bottle is empty.
[SPEAKER_01]: You heard me correctly.
[SPEAKER_01]: I drops in the eye every hour.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now I don't know if y'all have a 12 year old in your house, but that's not the easiest task every hour through the night.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'll tell you what, I'm finally out of the stage where I'm kept up at night by my children.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not used to this, but I was up a lot last night helping with the eye drops every hour, at least at night we get to go every two to three hours, which is, whoop, so amazing.
[SPEAKER_01]: My daughter's coming in here.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, it's not.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, you took them at two, you took them at three.
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you, can you do it right now then?
[SPEAKER_01]: She came in to tell me she forgot to take her eye drops a while ago.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's ongoing and she's in a good deal of pain which is also not fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I haven't had to stay up for my kids in quite some time.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're 12 and eight.
[SPEAKER_01]: They sleep through the night now.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that was just a nice dose of reality for me last night.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not fun, and we have to do it again tonight and until this dang bottle is empty.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yay, I really, this scratch can't heal fast enough.
[SPEAKER_01]: She had to stay home from school because it hurt too much and just put eyedrops in her eye every hour.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can't make this up.
[SPEAKER_01]: What the heck?
[SPEAKER_01]: God, parenting in my right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, also on the home front, I live in a huge Manhattan building.
[SPEAKER_01]: We had a teeny tiny gas leak and connet has shut off the gas to the entire building and we might not have it y'all.
[SPEAKER_01]: We might not have it back for a year.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I've been living without a stove.
[SPEAKER_01]: for a week and a half now.
[SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, listen, first world problems I know, and also I just needed to vent.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're making it through.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of instepot happening.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's the air fryer.
[SPEAKER_01]: We've got a little hot plate.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're frying things up on.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's working.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're making it work.
[SPEAKER_01]: We just can't cook any frozen pizzas for quite some time.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's hard when you're a tired mom.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, all right, let's get to the story.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is just turning into an episode about the trials and tribulations of being a parent in these days.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, okay, all right, I'm off with soapbox.
[SPEAKER_01]: I gotta go put to my drops in.
[SPEAKER_01]: Helen will do it for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Helen and Bula are just sitting with my daughter watching modern family, not helping it all.
[SPEAKER_01]: So Helen, Bula, can you get over here and roll this tape, please?
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much.
[SPEAKER_01]: Enjoy this episode with Jimeo.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hi Jimeo.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hola.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hola, señor, ¿Qué tal?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so nice to see you again.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, I feel like it was just yesterday.
[SPEAKER_03]: We were chatting it up.
[SPEAKER_03]: And because I see you almost every day on Instagram, I feel like we're down to street from each other.
[SPEAKER_03]: We just, we haven't made it across the street yet.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know it's too bad we can do this in person and I listen, I love all the love that you are throwing my way on social.
[SPEAKER_01]: I really appreciate that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Big fan, I've told you before.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm a big supporter of other people in the same industry, trying to move the queer agenda, if you will for like a better term forward.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm like, hey, listen, I'm not getting paid for this.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't have any, you know, advertising dollars coming my way.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm I'm going to advertise other people.
[SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Without further ado, let's get into your 30 second elevator pitch.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the folks at home can know why you're on the social media, why you're supporting the queer agenda so to speak and who you are.
[SPEAKER_01]: So on your mark, get set.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Hey guys, jumeo mayors, I am the host of the podcast, Father and Netflix, and I am so excited to be on the podcast with Jamie today.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, I started this journey about a year ago, and social media was new to me at the time, and it still kind of is, but I'm so excited that I get to talk to so many dads out there going through the journey of surrogacy, adoption, fostering, and expanding their family in a very intentional way, very much like I did for my family.
[SPEAKER_03]: I have a
[SPEAKER_03]: It's been such a joy, but he is quite the ride.
[SPEAKER_01]: Boom, well done.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I love how you did it in a nicer, cutest way.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was very nicely done to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, like a surprise.
[SPEAKER_03]: That was right off the cuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: Same for you, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: We've done this so many times.
[SPEAKER_03]: It just rolls off the shoulder, really easy.
[SPEAKER_01]: exciting stuff and you are a fellow podcaster and everybody who's listening needs to go listen to it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Father netics as well because it's stories just like ours.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's our stories.
[SPEAKER_01]: Plus, I think you probably spatter in some non clears in there too, like fathers.
[SPEAKER_03]: I do because the concept really comes from, hey, I want to know where you get your genus acqua, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: What is this fatherhood thing come from?
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's really an opportunity to weave in the fact that we are more alike than we are different.
[SPEAKER_01]: My arms, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Exactly, you know, we've got our nuances that are very unique to the queer space.
[SPEAKER_03]: You can't take that away from us, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: But straight people have their roads, too.
[SPEAKER_01]: truth.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, let's get into this, Jamiel.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you started your podcast about a year ago.
[SPEAKER_03]: It will almost be a year in May.
[SPEAKER_03]: It will be a, you know, I looked up this morning.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was talking to my friends like it's going to be a year.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, wow.
[SPEAKER_01]: Congratulations.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're sticking with it.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're sticking to it.
[SPEAKER_03]: I, you know, I could not have.
[SPEAKER_03]: anticipated the road that this was going to take me on because I you know when I started it I was like hey I'm not going to have enough people to talk to you know every week maybe this is a once a month kind of an episode and it was like okay it took off and it was like okay I can't do every other week it has to be every week so I mean I'm grateful for the people who have raised our hands and said yes we want to be on your podcast these are these are in
[SPEAKER_03]: different.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're preaching to the choir here in the out like this is what I say all the time like you're you're telling my story and I love it like you're mirroring exactly back to me what I say all the time like every story is different we want to tell our stories there's no space for us to tell our stories and it's eye opening how many people still are reaching out saying oh my god you have to
[SPEAKER_03]: And it starts off the same, and it takes us while to a sit the end.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, when a minute, why that happened?
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, here's why.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's like, yeah, why?
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: So speaking of, let's hear your path to parenthood, because you're a father.
[SPEAKER_03]: My kid is 12.
[SPEAKER_03]: We've had him for just over eight years, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: So we adopted him.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, we got him when he was four.
[SPEAKER_03]: We decided to do the foster to adopt path.
[SPEAKER_03]: We looked into adoption.
[SPEAKER_03]: We looked into surrogacy.
[SPEAKER_03]: We ran from surrogacy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why?
[SPEAKER_03]: That cost was like the numbers were like, um, well, Gary, but I'll credit where credit is due.
[SPEAKER_03]: There weren't these organizations around that were able to kind of take our hands and say, yes, this is daunting, but here's here the bite size way of consuming this.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we didn't have that opportunity.
[SPEAKER_03]: Adoption was taking us international, which is not what we wanted to do, because then we were like, we don't know how to engage with those individuals
[SPEAKER_03]: is legit if it's legal if we start that process can we bring them back to the you know it was just so cloudy and unclear so we decided to go down the foster to a top route because it was here was local there are a lot of resources to say here's how you start the process like what kind of resources.
[SPEAKER_03]: So here in the state of Arizona, you have to get an agency and then the agency connects and does all the training and fostering and the certification and then allows for you to connect with the state for the adoption process.
[SPEAKER_03]: So when you sign up, they give you this list.
[SPEAKER_03]: And there's like 10 agencies on there.
[SPEAKER_03]: And you have to find one on your own.
[SPEAKER_03]: Hey, go do your research, which I'm a, I do that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Go do your research, find out which one works for you in your family.
[SPEAKER_03]: I would say probably nine out of 10 were not a match for very specific reasons, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Christian based, uh-huh, traditional families.
[SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh, you know, all the dog whistles that you hear.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we're like, hmm, okay, fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: Did you like push in?
[SPEAKER_01]: Or did you just see the dog whistles?
[SPEAKER_01]: that's a sign.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it is right in bother because I know if there that overt about it didn't what's the point.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, if you're going to say traditional families by piece out.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's not me.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're not traditional.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, or at least at the time, we weren't.
[SPEAKER_01]: At least we're not considered traditional.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we're pretty traditional.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're so freaking traditional, it's boring to be quite honest.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I know people keep saying, you know, queer houses are different.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm like, what would you come sit down in a corner over here and find out the nonsense I have to deal with?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just exactly the same, it's exactly the same.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, I told someone I was like, if you bring your kid to my house and you're scared to sit on the rainbow color couch that I have downstairs, which I don't, it's like, well, don't sit on it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Go sit in the kitchen.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, you're not going to be gay leaving the house.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we're not going to make you gay.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're not going to cry.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's that easy.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's a different conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're out of gay to begin with.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's be real.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I reached out to the one agency that was like, come as you are, we just need people to, who have loving hearts and want to get involved.
[SPEAKER_03]: And you know, that's me.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we did the whole training course to talk about, I would say, I don't know, at three months, maybe four, we got certified.
[SPEAKER_03]: got put in the system and then we waited.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I would say probably about four months in, we got a call and they were like, hey, we have this kid.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, it's an emergency thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was like, are you available today?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like in three hours.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we were like, uh, okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, my husband was in Vegas.
[SPEAKER_03]: He was in Vegas.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, it was in Vegas.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was the only one at home.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm like,
[SPEAKER_03]: But what I want to do this is like, if I say no, will they put me on a list and say, don't call this guy ever again?
[SPEAKER_03]: So I said yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: And my friend and I went out and got this kid.
[SPEAKER_03]: He had to be like two years old.
[SPEAKER_03]: And you know, your heart breaks because you don't really know what's going on.
[SPEAKER_03]: They don't tell you much.
[SPEAKER_01]: And where do you go?
[SPEAKER_01]: They just, there's like, they're at like a temporary.
[SPEAKER_03]: So he was at the office.
[SPEAKER_03]: So the time that I picked them up was at 10 p.m. And the case workers, what I'm gonna call her, was like, hey, he's gonna come here.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm gonna be at the office until he gets here.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'll let you know when he's here, come get him.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we drive up, it's like this giant building.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like a government building, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like eight stories tall.
[SPEAKER_03]: The parking lot's really dimly lit.
[SPEAKER_03]: You gotta pull up to the gate and like punch a button and the gate opens.
[SPEAKER_03]: And you park, and we're like one of two cars
[SPEAKER_03]: And then we just sit there and we call and say we're here.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we're just waiting, it was the most ominous movie moment, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, we probably shouldn't be here.
[SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't feel right, but we were supposed to be there.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then the door opens and they come out and they bring us this kid.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we had that kid.
[SPEAKER_03]: I had that kid for about two days and then they went back.
[SPEAKER_01]: because this is faster to adopt, so the hope is that we connect with the family.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's reunification.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: reunification.
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a great goal and should be absolutely.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's absolutely the goal.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, the situation with this one was mom, single mom, had gotten drunk.
[SPEAKER_03]: and got into some sort of an altercation at some event.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the kid was then left at home alone.
[SPEAKER_03]: So she was in the drunk tank the weekend.
[SPEAKER_03]: So when she was released, she got her kid back.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that's how that happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's tough.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was a tough weekend as a tough weekend.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, he was like really quiet and then he finally warmed up and was like, you know, interactive.
[SPEAKER_03]: He wouldn't let go of me and then and then and towards the end, it's like, uh, you got to go back but you're going back to your mom.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's okay, you know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, God, but that's that's a roller coaster for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the thing with foster to adopt.
[SPEAKER_01]: And just fostering in general, I feel like.
[SPEAKER_01]: you can get attached to these and you have to open your heart up to these children however many children they end up placing with you and then the goal is to send them back to their families.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the hard thing with this path should you choose to go down one of the hard things I should say.
[SPEAKER_03]: and I love to talk about it because I want people to be aware that it's not all rosy, you know, you can have that experience, but it's not always that way.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, it's, they do a lot of work to try to prepare you for the kind of kids that you may get.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, be prepared.
[SPEAKER_03]: Your heart has to be open, but then the goals are reunification.
[SPEAKER_03]: So always make sure that you don't approach these kids with, well, you're not going to be here long.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm only going to give you half
[SPEAKER_03]: of this, you know, you're going to have that corner in that bedroom over there because I'm not redoing the, you know, it's like still a person you're dealing with at the end of the day.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so.
[SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't matter how much preparation you do.
[SPEAKER_03]: It is art.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they ask you a lot of questions.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I know I've spoken with others who've gone down this path and the questions that you get asked before you get certified are like really, like, they go deep and they make you really, really think hard.
[SPEAKER_03]: Second, Amazon shopping list.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it almost feels very sterile, like you're not, like you're buying furniture.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, because like what kind of what kind of do you want to mail female how old what race?
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, are you open to such and such are you open to such and such and then you have to like get real with yourself and say Oh my god actually, I'm not open to such and such like things like that.
[SPEAKER_03]: You feel like crap right like Do I want a nine year I don't want a nine year old, but why don't I want a nine year old right?
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean ask myself that question
[SPEAKER_01]: Some soul-searching answers you have to come up with that actually open your eyes to like things about yourself that you might not have wanted to admit about yourself.
[SPEAKER_03]: So what I do want to say is the foster to that process supports familiar ties as well.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's a process to be on the road to adopt like a cousin or a niece.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's the way to do it as well as well as kids during the system when they're over, you know,
[SPEAKER_03]: 12,000 or so here in the state of Arizona.
[SPEAKER_03]: So imagine the rest of the country right and then they're those who just do it.
[SPEAKER_03]: I just want to foster.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't want to adopt.
[SPEAKER_03]: I just want to, you know, give me, give me as many as I can manage.
[SPEAKER_03]: I have a home.
[SPEAKER_03]: I have five bedrooms.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's let's set it up and this will be their their way station until they get there forever home is what they call it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And those people have the biggest hearts of all because that's like a, you know, you're new, you're into this new family of all foster kids and they all have their own issues right they all come with their own trauma and that and itself I'll talk about that later, but that and itself is something that you can never really be prepared for unless you've experienced it yourself.
[SPEAKER_03]: But on Jacob, so Jim came, right, Jacob my son, a few weeks later there was this career foster mom that said, hey, I need to do this thing over this weekend.
[SPEAKER_03]: I need someone to do respite and respite is where you come in and you kind of support that foster parent for a couple of days or sometimes even a week and then they go back.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's kind of like vacation support.
[SPEAKER_03]: They reached out for Jacob and we're like, um, we, this kid is not staying with us.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's just the two days.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, do we want to do that?
[SPEAKER_01]: So we want to stay there.
[SPEAKER_01]: You stay at the foster.
[SPEAKER_03]: No, the kid comes to us.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: So this has to be local.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we were like, let's do it.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, we're helping this person out.
[SPEAKER_03]: They need to have this time for whatever reason.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's, it's cool.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like babysitting.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Cool.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we went there.
[SPEAKER_03]: We got to the house.
[SPEAKER_03]: giant spawn is facing like what's up guys I knew you guys were coming I'm so excited and we're like Wow This energy coming out of this house, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And he's like he's taking us by the hand he's like let me show you the living room let me show you my bedroom Let me show you and there's like you know how much the kids hanging around and they're all nice but Jacob's like the most energized one
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a lot of foster kids in one place.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, I think she had like four, including Jacob was five.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know how she did five kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, she's just fostering not to adapt.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a not a forever home, possibility.
[SPEAKER_03]: Correct.
[SPEAKER_03]: She didn't want to adopt any of them.
[SPEAKER_03]: She just wanted to support.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, she was older than myself.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's certainly sprying up to run around after five kids.
[SPEAKER_03]: And they're all varying ages, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: I think the oldest was like 12 at the time.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we had them for the weekend, we had a great time, we had pizza and ice cream, and we went to see movies, and he was the most delightful, red-headed, red-curly individual, and he's got freckles all over his face.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's still does, still does.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we sent them back and so she calls that like two days later and she's like, look, I'm not looking to adopt.
[SPEAKER_03]: It sounds like you guys hit it off.
[SPEAKER_03]: If you want me to move them to your home for the whole fostering process and then whatever comes from that, you know, cool, let me know, we're like, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_03]: So like three days later is with us and we've had them ever since.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh wow, and he was like, he loved you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sounds like it was like, and still, and how long had he been at the other foster home?
[SPEAKER_01]: So he's been in the system.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is what I refer to it for about two years.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think he's had a couple of different homes prior to then.
[SPEAKER_03]: and he has two younger sisters.
[SPEAKER_03]: So he was for at the time, and they were all in a system, but in different homes.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that's a possibility as well.
[SPEAKER_03]: They were all on their own trajectory.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we didn't pursue adopting all three of them, but together, when they're together, they are a fire storm.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do they all have a fire?
[SPEAKER_03]: No, well, there's two of them have right here, but when they're together, which is why they were separated earlier on, they are like, forget it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, we're going to tear your house up and you're going to think as for it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, they're wild.
[SPEAKER_03]: They're wild.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, wow.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_03]: So they were like, if you want to, it's a lie.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, cool, but I don't recommend it.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that's like, let's just do the one for now.
[SPEAKER_03]: See how it goes.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I mean, it was fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he came to you at four.
[SPEAKER_03]: came to us at four, stayed with us for roughly about a year and a half before full adoption.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that whole year and a half was quite the eye opening experience for myself and my husband Nicholas.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was, it was quite the journey.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, tell us.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, do you want to do this?
[SPEAKER_03]: This is where you put in the commercial?
[SPEAKER_03]: Come back.
[SPEAKER_01]: Stay tuned.
[SPEAKER_01]: I might actually put a commercial there.
[SPEAKER_05]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, y'all, as you know, and as I say time and time again on this show, there are so many different paths to queer parenthood.
[SPEAKER_01]: Jamil chose foster two adoptus his path.
[SPEAKER_01]: I chose IVF with sperm donor.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you're thinking about IVF or surrogacy, as your path to parenthood, one piece of advice that I always give is to prepare for things to not go exactly how you plan.
[SPEAKER_01]: When my wife and I went through IVF, we thought the insurance had it all covered, but in the middle of treatment, we found out we suddenly owed $15,000 out of pocket.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we had to take out a loan to cover the cost.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep, that happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm sure I'm not the only one with a story like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's why having the right guidance during these journeys can be really, really important.
[SPEAKER_01]: Their team helps intended parents manage the entire process in one place.
[SPEAKER_01]: From matching with the surrogate to coordinating medical care to navigating legal steps.
[SPEAKER_01]: If surrogacy or IVF, just IVF alone are your path to parenthood, you can learn more or schedule a free consultation at bparenth surrogacy.com.
[SPEAKER_01]: And bonus, if you mentioned the queer family podcast, you're going to get $2,000 off any service you end up booking.
[SPEAKER_01]: So go make those babies and then come tell me about him y'all.
[SPEAKER_03]: We discovered all of his diagnosis and what they meant.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we had to study and read up on them.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the intellectually knowing what they are is so much different than experiencing them.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because you have to guard yourself.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because you don't know, there's a lot of anger that comes out of these kids, because they've moved from house to house.
[SPEAKER_03]: Once that honeymoon faces over, and you get to see the real kid,
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Once it's not movies and ice cream and fun anymore, yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we had some episodes and flows and this came from visitation.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: So there was a lot of once a week on Thursdays, he had an opportunity to visit with his biodiversity, who was working to get him back.
[SPEAKER_03]: But he had some issues and some court regulated things that he had to work on.
[SPEAKER_03]: So he kept missing
[SPEAKER_03]: Judges will give biological parents chance after chance after chance after chance, which is why it took a year and a half for us to get to the adoption process.
[SPEAKER_03]: But during visitation, he would allow for them to do whatever, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Visitation was never at his home.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was always like at a McDonald's.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that would eat.
[SPEAKER_03]: ice cream and fries and play and all the rules went out the window, do whatever you want kid, it was good to see you, you know an hour and a half and then send them home.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then that's it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because if anybody do, you can't, you can't be a punisher and you only see them an hour and a half, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: So he'll come home and forget all the rules, everything we taught him, be hyped up on sugar and it was just for the next three days, it was like,
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then when we finally got him back where we needed them to be, boom, back to visitation.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, we were like, what do we need to do this?
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, why are we doing like, where's the psychology in this?
[SPEAKER_03]: But it's less psychology and it's more dotting the eyes crossing the T's from a core perspective.
[SPEAKER_03]: So they went adoption gets there.
[SPEAKER_03]: Everything has been done.
[SPEAKER_01]: We've tried.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: We've tried.
[SPEAKER_01]: We've tried really hard.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we've been to core, met by of dad and everything.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think towards the end is the, we met by a mom once.
[SPEAKER_03]: once.
[SPEAKER_03]: And she has this fire red hair, which is where Jacob gets his hair from.
[SPEAKER_03]: And she walked in the court and she looked at me and Nicholas and was like, look, that is what like the
[SPEAKER_03]: And then she's like, well, who are you?
[SPEAKER_03]: And then her husband or the biodec came overturned like, grab her and like, whisked her away.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, you don't need to talk to these guys.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, these guys have been taking care of our kids for the last year and a half.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, you need step away.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was like, and I think it was more of me and Nick being gay, taking care of the kid as opposed to just an individual, taking care of a kid.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that was her reaction.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we were, we were composed.
[SPEAKER_01]: But she didn't know that before.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, she hasn't been to any of the court meetings.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's been no visitations.
[SPEAKER_03]: No visitation, she hasn't been plugged in, half the time they can't find her.
[SPEAKER_03]: She was very drug oriented, so she was dealing with her own demons.
[SPEAKER_03]: And this was like, this is the last time you can show up to court.
[SPEAKER_03]: And she showed up and it was, I mean, court was a mess that day.
[SPEAKER_01]: like how, like what do you mean?
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm picturing papers everywhere.
[SPEAKER_03]: And like, they're not well.
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, so one of those stipulations for biodad getting consideration for the kid to come back was to stay away from her, because she was his enabler.
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, they both had it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And they walked in a court together.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then the first thing the prosecutor asked was, where did you stay last night?
[SPEAKER_03]: And she's like, I stayed with him.
[SPEAKER_03]: She's like, thank you.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's all I need to know.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that, I mean, that was the judge gave her, you know, quite the visceral commentary.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, you're trying to do this, but you're disobeying the rules with giving you so many chances, look at where we are.
[SPEAKER_03]: And she was very dismissive like, and is what it is.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we were like, okay, well, I guess.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that was the last, that was the last of the judgment coming out of that is we're moving into adoption.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that was it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, but the state pays for everything.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's all taken care of from the state.
[SPEAKER_03]: Jacob gets to go to a university, a state university all pay for by the state.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's used out here, which is Arizona State University, giant university, very esteemed.
[SPEAKER_03]: I guess you can call it.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we're like, please go there because it's all covered.
[SPEAKER_01]: because he was fostered to adopt its cover.
[SPEAKER_03]: And Amy child in the foster care system gets free health care and they get free education in a state university.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh wow, even if they get adopted from the system.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh wow, it's great.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we get a stipend until he's 18.
[SPEAKER_01]: Even after the adoption, that's I didn't know that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Correct.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's cool.
[SPEAKER_03]: OK. That was a life, but it stops it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, he's going to leave the house eventually.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, but I'm going to pay his back.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, you don't want that.
[SPEAKER_03]: He cost a lot more than this type of thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: You got the adoption and then what happened with I'm digging deep and if I ask too many nosy questions, if I ask anything too nosy, just this is fine.
[SPEAKER_03]: I want people to better understand what's going on.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, because this is a rocky road, this is a tough, this can be, can be tough on everybody's part.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of people in this in this situation and it's heartbreaking for some and it's hard for others.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a rocky road.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what happened once you've the adoption was solidified, do you still have contact with bio parents or so once they say we can move forward
[SPEAKER_03]: I'll contact with the bio-parent stops.
[SPEAKER_03]: There are no more court dates involving the bio-parents.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now, it's court dates for adoption.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we got assigned an attorney, which was also paid for by the state.
[SPEAKER_03]: And in that process, moved kind of quickly.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it was a good six months, and then maybe less.
[SPEAKER_03]: and then we were in court and they arranged it so that all three kids got adopted on the same day in the same court by the same judge to different families.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh wow.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we all showed up.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's had his little student tie on and they're all dressed in her flower dresses and we made a big event out of it.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was I mean the pictures.
[SPEAKER_03]: I have a TV just behind me and it just kind of floats all the pictures.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it pops up every now and again, it just gives me a big smile.
[SPEAKER_03]: You such a small little kitty.
[SPEAKER_01]: The sisters are in separate houses too.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's three separate houses.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow, but it sounds like y'all are keeping contact at least.
[SPEAKER_03]: We tried.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a little harder to do than expected because we all have their lives and they all have their own families.
[SPEAKER_03]: They all these adopted individuals, the kids are in addition to the family that already exists with them.
[SPEAKER_03]: So one of them moved out of state so they're a little bit harder to reach.
[SPEAKER_03]: Another one is on the other side of town.
[SPEAKER_03]: But they're all going through their journeys and we try to balance what makes sense.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: We are still connected to other phone numbers if I reach out there with respond and stuff like that.
[SPEAKER_03]: No problem.
[SPEAKER_03]: But we also want to give the kids room to expand into their own new spaces and their own families without re-triggering trauma because they're trauma for each other too.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because they went through that together.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, how old were they when they were taking out of their bio parents home, or did they even remember?
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think one of the girls were, it was an infant.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then the other one was probably about maybe one or two because Jacob would have been,
[SPEAKER_03]: two or three, maybe two at the time.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I mean, they were really young when they got removed from their their situation, which is a good thing, but as most developmental psychologists will tell you, those first four years are like critical.
[SPEAKER_03]: And if you've missed all the key milestones, then
[SPEAKER_03]: you're going to spend the rest of their formidable years re-learning it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And for adults like us, I say that like us, the royal us, we've all learned that growing up because we've seen it married, we've seen our intentional parents teach us, you know, how to use our coping skills, how to communicate things that nature is so now that we're adults, we take it for granted, like that's something we do.
[SPEAKER_03]: So to try to teach our kids that small detail of coping skills is like, I don't even know how I do it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I have to learn coping skills to them be able to teach you coping skills.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's try to describe something that you can't define and then you have to go define it to them be able to explain it.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that's been our journey.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's been a fun journey just because he makes us learn ourselves more than we thought we would have to.
[SPEAKER_01]: What do you mean?
[SPEAKER_03]: all of these roads and in patients and it's understanding, I always do this example.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's the kid that's rolling around the floor and the grocery store and people will go, well, why do you let your kid do that?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, you should be a better, it's like, hold on.
[SPEAKER_03]: My perspective is different now, it's like, you don't know what's happening.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like you know what's going on with that kid and that parent is probably so embarrassed that this happens to have been triggered at this time and you cannot handle that the same way that, you know, Joe Schmoldown there would where you just.
[SPEAKER_03]: you pick up your kid and you're like, we're leaving the store.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, the moment you touch your kid, it gets worse.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, you have to handle it different.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that means you're gonna be here for another five minutes longer, annoying these other people that are going, why aren't you addressing this?
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, okay, you need to have a little bit more patient, but you won't because you don't understand what's happening.
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't get it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And also, parenthood in general teaches you that lesson, like, we're all doing our best here.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's really important.
[SPEAKER_01]: that all people like offer a little bit of good will to the parents out there who are struggling through it because it's hard no matter how it spins and then you add the trauma that your child has gone through and like have some empathy and just know that the parents doing their best and my and since I'm a mother who's had instances like that with my children in public my instinct is always to make it home.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, but like I always want to go over to the mom or it's usually a mom's No shade on the daze, but it's usually a mom I see dealing with the situation.
[SPEAKER_01]: I always want to just go be like, it's okay, mama You're doing a good job.
[SPEAKER_01]: You got this, but even that feels like they're gonna think I'm judging them.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know like you kind of just have to like let them go through it It's also a spotlight on their moment, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's right.
[SPEAKER_03]: They want to just crawl away and then anyone coming up going can I help you?
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like you shouldn't even be watching me right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like in your own, leave me alone, I'm really deep in the thick of this and I can't talk to anybody right now.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like there's a process and you're disrupting my process, you want this to end, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: So you need to walk away so I can deal with this.
[SPEAKER_03]: There are steps.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know, I wish we had like a sign, like a, like a camaraderie sign, like I see you, like, like in the Hunger Games or something, do like a thing and in the Hunger Games, they do a thing with their hands.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wish we could just do that to parents, like I see you.
[SPEAKER_01]: When that be awesome, I mean, that would give you just all the extra, I love that solidarity mom and then walk away like I feel you need to come off of the universal sign for the parents who are going through it with their kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I'm here for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me know if you need me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right?
[SPEAKER_03]: You know what?
[SPEAKER_03]: I love that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I for some reason in that particular area.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't see a lot of parents who take the step to understand what's happening.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know that I'm unique in that process.
[SPEAKER_03]: My situation is a little bit more on the higher end of high touch.
[SPEAKER_03]: But a lot of times I do see bad actors out there and I'm wondering, what's happening?
[SPEAKER_03]: For example, I was at Jacob Place Football, he placed Flag Football.
[SPEAKER_03]: and we were at this one of his football games.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the other team was mixed to had girls and guys, which I thought was fantastic.
[SPEAKER_03]: We showed up, we were like, let's go girls like, okay, we don't know what's going to happen here, but you're on the field.
[SPEAKER_03]: And they started playing in these girls were fantastic.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, they were catching the balls, and they were like scoring and running all over these guys.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I was like, okay, I'm not supposed to be cheering for you, but look what's happening.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then a lot of the guys on my son's team were hesitant and you can see that the hesitation because they're like, okay, they're girls.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're supposed to be going for flags.
[SPEAKER_03]: What if I grab something else by accident?
[SPEAKER_03]: And we were trying to get them to understand that, hey, they have elected to play flag football.
[SPEAKER_03]: We know that accident happened.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's all about intention.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: You go for the flag and you don't grab the flag, grab something else by just, you know, hey, rock on, just move on.
[SPEAKER_03]: This.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's next place.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, let's go.
[SPEAKER_03]: But the point I was trying to make is their coach was very, his wording wasn't always what I would have expected.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was very man up is what he kept saying.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm like, you realize there are young ladies on your team.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: What does man up mean to them?
[SPEAKER_01]: because I think you better be saying woman up because it looks like the women are running on these boys.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you better woman up.
[SPEAKER_03]: They weren't doing it and we were like, and but beyond that, it's like, what does it mean to the guys when you're saying man up?
[SPEAKER_03]: What are you communicating?
[SPEAKER_03]: Does this toxic masculinity that we're exuding?
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then the parents on the field are like, they're cheering, they're not picking up on any of this.
[SPEAKER_03]: I guess, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_03]: but one of the parents was very, oh, you're just upset that you're losing because the girls are running all over you guys and we're like, we're not, we're like, they're doing fantastic, we're changing for them.
[SPEAKER_03]: They're not even on our team, but it's that kind of thing that I think still needs help.
[SPEAKER_03]: In our country is identifying what you're doing.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think he's doing something that he may have learned and just hasn't clicked that hey, your daughter is playing on his team and look at how you're behaving on the sidelines.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is what I find in our conversations about like these queer family conversations because we are.
[SPEAKER_01]: We come to the table outside of the box already.
[SPEAKER_01]: We think outside of the box and we see those things.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you haven't, if you're not already outside of the box and you haven't been forced to think differently, you don't, you just fall in line and you just carry it on and you don't even see it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Whereas we're seeing it, and then it's our job to like call it out sometimes when we see it, which is also very scary.
[SPEAKER_01]: And also you become like the squeaky wheel in the room a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I feel like I'm like the squeaky squeaky wheel game on at school all the time, like bringing in the perspective, oh well, what about my wife?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like just constantly like throwing stupid jabs in about how they're just being so heteronormative right now, but trying to keep it light and funny.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_03]: But it's kind of half too.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because who else is going to do it, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: And but I become the squeaky will.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I get annoyed myself.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then like also at my work, my day job, I'm constantly throwing in the, oh, like yesterday, I was that we had a all staff meeting and we had pulled chairs out so we had to put the chairs away.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was helping put the chairs away and it was me and two other guys.
[SPEAKER_01]: And of course, I have to make my job.
[SPEAKER_01]: Look, I believe it up to the lesbian and the men.
[SPEAKER_01]: But just I'm just constantly like pushing it, like pushing it, that's bringing the other perspective, that's bringing the perspective of the queers, that's bringing the perspective of those of us who are out of the gender norms or out of the the box, so to speak, that I keep saying.
[SPEAKER_01]: But honing that skill, that strength in being able to call out the assholeness of toxic masculinity
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think as having these conversations and learning how to hone our skills is great in like talking about how we do it because I always make it like a funny little joke moment, try to get people to laugh with me and other people are like way more pointed with the way they bring up.
[SPEAKER_03]: We try to do that as well, we don't, I'm not very good at the subtleness either.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not rude about it, but I am a very direct person by nature.
[SPEAKER_03]: So if I choose to be gentle about it, it's, it's work.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I'm choosing to be gentle.
[SPEAKER_03]: So now I have to think of the nicer ways or words to use.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's why I'm like a bullet in a time.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, wait a minute.
[SPEAKER_03]: What did you say?
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's talk about that.
[SPEAKER_03]: And sometimes people are not open enough to wanting to have that kind of and I have to be aware of that too.
[SPEAKER_03]: Am I talking to somebody who's listening or am I talking to somebody who's waiting for me to stop talking?
[SPEAKER_03]: So they can shoot back.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then, you know, is that that's not worth my time.
[SPEAKER_01]: When you have these conversations, you do start to realize, oh, this person is not hearing me, and if they're not hearing me, they're just not gonna hear me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I do have those moments where I'm like, I'm not gonna be hurt by this.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I know I'm never gonna be hurt by this person.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just, I'm learning in my, as I get older, I'm learning that there are just people who really are never gonna hear me, no matter what.
[SPEAKER_03]: I haven't tried.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's just waiting for you to stop speaking so that they can say what they have to say.
[SPEAKER_01]: But having these conversations is really important and sharpening these skills for ourselves who know that the world can be a much better place if we get out of these confines that we place ourselves in in society, the world can be so much better, so much better and clear people are so good at seeing that.
[SPEAKER_03]: you do such a good job on your show where, you know, the kind of conversations that you have help us kind of go, okay, I should probably think about doing that, adding that to my repertoire, you know, let me add that to my toolbell or saying, hey, I did that, maybe that's why that doesn't work.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, and I think, again, to your to your point, conversations or what let's us say I am not that different I just think I am because I'm not talking to anybody else is doing it the way I am or close to the way I am I need to talk to more intentional parents I need to talk to more LGBTQ parents because they are on the outside there they're outside looking in and they can say hey that over there I call BS on that and as you become a parent it's like I got the BS if you want to come get it.
[SPEAKER_01]: 100% like let's go let's talk this out let's let's talk about why do you you encourage your sons to wrestle like why is that funny and then you don't encourage your daughters to like why are we doing that what's that about like it drives me insane but like honing the skills on calling it in is really really important because you don't want to piss everybody off in your life.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was listening to Trevor Noah the other day on some podcasts and he was talking about the Disney misconception.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if you've heard about this.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think so.
[SPEAKER_03]: He was saying that Disney did us a disservice because of the way that the story is always at.
[SPEAKER_03]: And they always end where the good guy finds some sort of way of always winning.
[SPEAKER_03]: And he's like, but that's not real life.
[SPEAKER_03]: good guys don't always win and because we're not familiar with that concept, we tend to let things go further than they should.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, this will fix itself at some point.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's a good guy.
[SPEAKER_03]: So this this will eventually, you know, and I think the whole princess concept as well with girls has done us a disservice as well.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, you can do that.
[SPEAKER_03]: You can't do that.
[SPEAKER_03]: But that's only one component of yourself, like you don't, you know, you have G.I.
[SPEAKER_03]: Jane comes to mind, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: You have the long flowy dress, but with the combat boots on underneath, it's like playing around if you want.
[SPEAKER_03]: You get a combat boot in your face if you, if you play around too much.
[SPEAKER_01]: these norms and these binaries and all the things.
[SPEAKER_01]: They have done us a disservice and we have to disassemble them and put the pieces back together in a way that makes space for all real identities, for reality, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So true, that was a fun little tangent we went on there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I want to know, I knew we were gonna do real.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, let's talk about your fish.
[SPEAKER_01]: My fish died.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so sad.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, God.
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't bring it up again.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll go back into more in English.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to ask you about how do you communicate with Jacob about his origin story and how do you navigate life together?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, he's been with you now, like for a very long time and hopefully forever.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, your dad's to him, and I would love to hear just kind of how you handle the origin story and handle what are the conversations and how do you navigate how your family came to be?
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess I'm asking
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, a lot of people do ask whether we are that transparent with him and we are I mean what are we hiding here he's old enough where he remembers certain details it's starting to fade a little bit and that's by design we want to allow those things to fade but we also have a record of it.
[SPEAKER_03]: physical record for one.
[SPEAKER_03]: I've kept all the stuff that they've ever shared with us that that provides insights to his early days because I do want him to have that whenever he decides he's ready to look at that stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: And if there is ever a moment where he's like, I want to go look for this individual.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, let's go.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's go find it.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't have any fear that that's going to change our family dynamic or that he's going to be like, oh, let me go to the, please.
[SPEAKER_03]: But we have sat him down in his early days and at age-appropriate conversations with him about what has happened, why he's with us now, the adoption process.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, he is aware that he's adopted because he's had to be in court.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, with his brothers and sisters for that process, but we take the same tone with everything in life with him, very transparent.
[SPEAKER_03]: You start asking questions about sex.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's get into it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe?
[SPEAKER_03]: You start asking questions about politics because people are asking questions.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's get into it.
[SPEAKER_03]: But it's always age appropriate.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's always in a way that is constructive.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're not trying to arm our kid to go out there and fight the good fight.
[SPEAKER_03]: You'll have time for that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right now you need to be a kid.
[SPEAKER_03]: You just need to be aware of why people are asking you questions.
[SPEAKER_03]: Why, you know, people will ask you about your two dads.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, what is a good answer.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, do we need to fight about this?
[SPEAKER_03]: No, you know, and we've had certain situations, years ago, where he would get involved and get very offended and you know, you know, and it's like, whoa, hold on, you don't need to do that with your friends.
[SPEAKER_03]: They don't understand.
[SPEAKER_03]: They're asking questions.
[SPEAKER_03]: They may not ask it right because they don't know how to ask it.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, for God's sake, there's six seven hero kids.
[SPEAKER_03]: They don't know how to ask, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And so we've had those conversations with him as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I love that he's defending you.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that, actually.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, like, I hear you.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I'm the mom who's like, all right, let's sit down.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's come up with some good one liners.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can stay right back to him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I'm the other type.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I'm like, all right, let's hit him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's hit him where it hurts.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's make them, let's make them.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that question, you know, they did not do that because he, because he doesn't actually, he's, yeah, he's naturally a very, like, I'm going to get it.
[SPEAKER_03]: We've had to walk him.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's, it's a reshaping, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: But he's a very, like, I'm that scared of you, like, I'm going to get in your, yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's like, Hey, let's tie that back.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's tie the back.
[SPEAKER_01]: But this is the intentionality here, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you know your kid and you know what you need to do to help him through whatever kinds of crazy questions might come his way because of his origin story.
[SPEAKER_01]: And my kids just seem to let it like they just let it go.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, you had to call that out.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's no passing go here, go back, go back.
[SPEAKER_03]: Get that money, go back.
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's the intentionality and that's knowing your kids and that's knowing what your children can handle
[SPEAKER_01]: And my, you know, well, you're 12, my oldest is 12, too.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so now she'll come home and she'll be like, my, I had a good one.
[SPEAKER_01]: I came up with a good one today.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, that's my girl.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, they're having fun with it.
[SPEAKER_03]: I love it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Trying, you know.
[SPEAKER_03]: I want him to get to that place as well, but he's, he gets angry.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, he, he has to really manage the conversation.
[SPEAKER_03]: And now he's at a point where all of his friends are like, whatever, they've been to our house, they've seen us.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's, it's normal to, it's parents are like, yeah, that's just two days.
[SPEAKER_03]: What are you talking about?
[SPEAKER_03]: So we're, we're good there when he moves to high school.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was going to be a different thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: to your point about like keeping it light, keeping the tone the same about everything.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's something that we work really hard to do as well, because we've been talking about where our kids come from since the day they came into our worlds, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because we have to, because we have to.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we have made it a part of everyday, easy, light, conversation, so that it's just the matter of us.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that it, yeah, so that it is like so that if I want to take it to a place where me and my kids joke about it, we can because this is a light thing, this is nothing to us.
[SPEAKER_01]: It might be something to you outside of our house, but that's on you.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not us.
[SPEAKER_01]: We make light of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: We make jokes about it because.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why wouldn't me it's nothing deep.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is what it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is who we are.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, but that's where the intentionality comes in, it's important to keep it light.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's important that it doesn't feel like this heavy deep thing because then that's where shame comes in.
[SPEAKER_03]: So what made you guys decide to do that?
[SPEAKER_03]: To be that way with your kids.
[SPEAKER_03]: It sounds very intentional, which is good.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I'm assuming, because I always think about this too.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, before I was a parent, I never thought I would have to deal with this type of circumstance and needing to be transparent with your kid about where they came from and stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was inevitable, but before having kids, I didn't think about that.
[SPEAKER_03]: But now it's my M.O.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, well, I think having kids makes you realize, like, oh, wait a second, our kids are gonna realize eventually that they came into the world a different kind of way because they're missing a person with one certain body part.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, they're gonna figure it out.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so to mitigate that being a shock someday, it's important that we start talking about it from the get go.
[SPEAKER_01]: And also, I started doing the show,
[SPEAKER_01]: when I was still pregnant with my the youngest.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm talking to all these other queer families who are like, this is an important thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have to talk about where we came from.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it was just like, I guess ingrained in my brain that, yeah, no, we got to talk about this from the start, like they need to know where they came from and they need to know that they were made with so much love and so much intentionality and they were made with help from others, which is a beautiful thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the reason I go there is because it screams in my head, it harkens to, you know, kids and their teens when they come out to their parents and all of a sudden it's like you're not my kid anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think about stuff like that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm like, how is that even possible, knowing you've gone through 16, 17 year or years of this being your biological child?
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, why would that even be a thing?
[SPEAKER_03]: But here we are, we're like, at three, four, five, we're like, hey, this is how you came into the world.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, and you can be who you want to be, you know, as long as you're not hurting anyone, and you're living, you know, your best life and your, and you're trying to be a good person in the world.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's go.
[SPEAKER_01]: You be you boo.
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't hurt anyone, though.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like don't be a tech.
[SPEAKER_01]: What is it?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, don't hurt anybody.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like Pink said, I don't care who my kid is.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just don't be a dick.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I think Pink said, it has like a famous interview clip, which is just don't be a dick.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you know, literally, I feel don't be a dick.
[SPEAKER_01]: Be who you want to be and don't be a dick.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then also when it comes to like the joking about it in our house and how he baked jokes and we throw around the world lesbian all the time and in the house and
[SPEAKER_01]: to normalize it for the kids so that to them it's a light thing and it's not this deep thing that you have to kick someone under the table if they say the word lesbian, you know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't feel that way and so I think the whole joking about it came about just because that's kind of who we are as people, me and my wife, we just we're we make jokes, we keep it light, we keep it we like to laugh so yeah because people just did it people.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if we're good, but like, well, I knew today it's kind of like the presidency, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And just the presidency in general, you know, they say it amplifies who you are before you become president, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: So if you're a nice, kind person, then when you become a parent, you continue being a nice, kind person, much like the presidency.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I, I guess that's how we just kind of fall into it in all of a sudden, your parenting exudes who you are as an individual.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then we can see that going the other way, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, totally.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you want your kids to feel good about themselves.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, you know what internalized shame feels like, because let's see, you're a member of the legit particular community, like, you know shame.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know that feeling.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you don't want your kids to ever feel that feeling.
[SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_01]: Never.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you're going to do everything in your power, because you know the feeling you're going to do everything in your power to keep your children from feeling that shame, surrounding their identity.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, to do that, we are open and honest from the start about everything.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's never any sense of shock or fear in being who they are.
[SPEAKER_03]: Or leaving gray zones where people fill in the gaps.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Be who you are.
[SPEAKER_01]: Be who you want to be.
[SPEAKER_01]: Be who you are and don't be a dick.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's the name of the episode.
[SPEAKER_03]: Don't be a dick.
[SPEAKER_03]: Don't be a real man.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, hopefully the kids don't feel like they have to fight people like to your point.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you don't want your kids going out there and fighting on your behalf.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't want that.
[SPEAKER_03]: No.
[SPEAKER_03]: Call me, I'll fight.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, I joke that I'm like, no, no, no, fight, fight them back a little bit.
[SPEAKER_01]: But at the same, I'm just, I'm giving them tools in case they feel the need to protect themselves.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: But no, I don't want them to fight, obviously.
[SPEAKER_01]: So don't get it twisted trolls who are listening to this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Fight with the brain.
[SPEAKER_03]: Fight with the brain.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, right.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what I try to give one lighter is like, oh, how can we come back to that one?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, how can we come back to the music?
[SPEAKER_03]: Because when you get in the high school, you're going to have to be able to stand on your own high school is is where you become at least a large part of who you will be.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I mean, that's the time to really put up all your guards and have all all the different armaments at the ready.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, so if we're openly talking to our kids their whole lives, by the time they get their hopefully, they have a good sense of self, a good enough sense of self that they know how to either walk away from like, well, a standard ground or walk away and hopefully it doesn't come to anything like that and hopefully, you know, we're raising them in communities that aren't trying to hurt our kids because of who their parents are like, that's
[SPEAKER_03]: your community is not trying to be a dick.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: A communities don't be dicks.
[SPEAKER_01]: Look.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know what?
[SPEAKER_03]: The way high schools are shaping up these days.
[SPEAKER_03]: I am very hopeful because I mean, I've seen, you know, the bright colored hair and the painted fingernails on guys and then, you know, they're, they're, they're expressing themselves and, you know, if you, if you have TikTok, which I don't have anymore, but you see it there as well.
[SPEAKER_03]: And there's, there's a whole brand of,
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm gay or I'm okay with my gay friend and we hang out together and it's okay and we're cool and I love that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I wish we had that back in the day.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, me too.
[SPEAKER_01]: And also we need all of those young people who are on that side to change the world for us.
[SPEAKER_01]: Keep it going.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, that's part of conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, let's go kids and our kids, our kids race in these households that are teaching them to be proud of themselves are going to change the world for the better.
[SPEAKER_01]: I fullheartedly believe it.
[SPEAKER_03]: These are the kids that are going to outs everybody in Congress today and change things.
[SPEAKER_03]: If they ever decide to go away, I mean 90-year-old so-and-so still in Congress needs to retire.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, we need our kids to heal the world.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, get it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you know this has been so fun and tell everybody at home where they can find you where they can listen to your show because they need to Everybody should tune into those conversations too because they think you talk about a lot of the stuff that we just talked about and And more we can get them more we can home that skill that better
[SPEAKER_03]: Father Nettix on Instagram on YouTube on Substack and again we have conversations it's origin stories for all of our hero dads.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's understanding where they've come from, who they are, and where they're going now that they have kids.
[SPEAKER_03]: So find us comment and gauge.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's also in the podcast apps, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's streaming in all the places.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's Apple, it's podcasts, it's Amazon, it's, it's everything, but you know, I still, we still get a lot our biggest traffic from just Apple and Spotify.
[SPEAKER_03]: Which I think is amazing.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's people just in their cars driving, listening, which is fantastic.
[SPEAKER_03]: But we also have the visual component on YouTube now, as a part of season two.
[SPEAKER_01]: Same same, so you all know what to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: Subscribe, like, rate, review for all of the shows.
[SPEAKER_01]: They hear that for me a lot lately.
[SPEAKER_01]: This one my kid says to like and subscribe dad you have a hundred subscribers on YouTube I'm like oh is that a good thing we need more we'll take it we'll do we need to push these stories out so what people can do is just like and subscribe and share and rate and review it because that gets us into the upper levels more and more and because the systems aren't doing it for us we need the community don't be a
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not calling this community.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not calling this community.
[SPEAKER_01]: Somebody should make a shirt of that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know, it's going to happen.
[SPEAKER_03]: No, okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to have to have credit.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a pink quote though.
[SPEAKER_01]: We can't take credit.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're just repeating what pink said.
[SPEAKER_01]: This has been so fun, Jamil.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks so much for that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for having me.
[SPEAKER_01]: The time for station.
[SPEAKER_01]: A huge thank you to our sponsors of this year episode, be parent surrogacy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Learn more about them, find the links to their websites in the show notes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Make those babies y'all and then come tell me about them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Whew, well folks, I hope you enjoyed that episode as much as I enjoyed it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you did enjoy it, feel free to listen to another or watch another.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have so many episodes for your listening or viewing pleasure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just go pick one and enjoy.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot, there really is.
[SPEAKER_01]: And also, if you really do like this show, please, I know I say it all the time, but please do consider supporting the show on Patreon.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're just gonna go to patreon.com slash the queer family podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're gonna pick a tear, you're gonna join, and you're gonna get that bonus content.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're also gonna get my love and adoration for the rest of my life.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love you all, thanks for tuning in, keep on tuning in, and I'll see you next time.