[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to Sexology, a podcast that untangles the science of sex and pleasure.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now, with this week's episode, your host, Clinical Psychologist, Dr. Naseneen Moali.
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll come back to another episode of the Sexology podcast of your host, Dr. Nazanine Mooli.
[SPEAKER_01]: And today we're talking about something that can shake even the strongest relationships.
[SPEAKER_01]: What happens when a partner sexual identity began to evolve?
[SPEAKER_01]: When some of you love start questioning, expanding, or redefining their sexuality, what's the first thing that gets triggered?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it fear of losing the relationship?
[SPEAKER_01]: Fear of not being enough?
[SPEAKER_01]: Fear of no longer being chosen?
[SPEAKER_01]: These moments can feel disabling, not just for the partner exploring, but for the partner standing still.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if they're not handled carefully, panic can replace curiosity very quickly.
[SPEAKER_01]: My guest today at Genevieve, Legion, founder of Skirt Club, a global member's club for bike, curious and bisexual women with over 25,000 members worldwide.
[SPEAKER_01]: Genevieve has been at the forefront of women's sexual empowerment creating spaces where women can explore desire with confidence and autonomy.
[SPEAKER_01]: In this episode, we unpack what sexual identity evolution really threatens inside relationships, how to talk about it with us rushing into ultimatums or fall free assurance, and what emotional safety actually looks like for the partner who is an exploit.
[SPEAKER_01]: Before we dive in, I wanted to briefly touch something that intersects with confidence and vulnerability in the bedroom.
[SPEAKER_01]: premature ejaculation, about 1 in 3 men experiencing at some point, and it simply means ejaculating sooner than you like and feeling distressed about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Whenever we partner with the sponsor, I personally test the product when we tried steady-fready, it generally made sex significantly longer while still being pleasurable for everyone involved.
[SPEAKER_01]: That balance really matters.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a delay spray designed to help men feel more control while keeping sensation intact.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can get 15% off with the code sexology at cityfready.com forward slash sexology.
[SPEAKER_01]: Also please read the label and follow directions for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, let's dive in.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hello and welcome back to another episode of The Sexology podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am so excited to welcome Genevieve Lijon to our show.
[SPEAKER_01]: Genevieve, welcome to our show.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hello, thank you for having me on.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am excited about this conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you are the founder of Skirt Club.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was just sharing with you that I have clients that have I referred to your club and they were happy about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you're going to talk about bisexual women, exploring sexual identity.
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess before that, I'm kind of curious.
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you tell a little bit about a scared club to our audience?
[SPEAKER_01]: So they can now get to know you a little bit better.
[SPEAKER_01]: Of course.
[SPEAKER_02]: So Skull Club is a private members club and a community.
[SPEAKER_02]: For women who are identifying as bicturious or bisexual, they also may be straight and questioning that and looking for a safe space to explore that without judgment.
[SPEAKER_02]: So Scott Club was started by me in 2013 in London.
[SPEAKER_02]: I myself was looking for other women to be friends with who identified the same way and it was very hard to discover that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So here we are 12 years later.
[SPEAKER_01]: I like that the brand is elevated because when to so today we're talking about people and partner like cisgender vulva owners that are partner with men and they exploring as he said there are their sexuality sometimes women's bisexuality is kind of eroticized right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It seems like it's more at the service of other people versus something that they're questioning so it's wonderful that you created the space for women that
[SPEAKER_01]: can explore that outside bad context.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well 100% yet we are strictly with an only through round all our events and online.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's because we've been very, very different when men are not in the room.
[SPEAKER_01]: So like let's go back to that, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes when people are in the partnership in heterosexual partnership,
[SPEAKER_01]: And their sexual identity, sexual orientation evolved or they may be kind of noticed that this is something that they want to explore, like sometimes the partners panic, they kind of think about, oh am I not enough for my partner, that they're now exploring something else, can't tell us more about that dynamic and is that true, is it about our partner, it's more about people's experiences.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, you know, everything's true.
[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, how he hosted my events now for 12 years, I've met a lot of women and all over the world.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, Scott Club is in 36 cities.
[SPEAKER_02]: We are very global.
[SPEAKER_02]: And by the way, that includes Australia, Europe, UK, America, you know, I can't it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm meeting them in from different cultural backgrounds.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I'm also understanding that their stories are very similar.
[SPEAKER_02]: most of the women that we encounter are looking for a first time experience.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that comes to be because we're very much a safe space and strictly women only.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that tends to also mean that she's with a male partner and that she's been happily in her relationship for some time, but this has always been something she wanted to explore and didn't know how to go about it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Typically men are feeling very secure in the knowledge
[SPEAKER_02]: But of course, insecurities do come up naturally.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think if your partner is exploring sexually with somebody else, there are many questions.
[SPEAKER_02]: What does it mean for me when I be left behind?
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, she no longer love me if she desires somebody else, does that mean she no longer desires me?
[SPEAKER_02]: and anybody who's known a little bit about the world of nominography and fluidity knows all these things can be true and untrue at the same time.
[SPEAKER_02]: So not a black and white answer, but you know with a lot of communication we can get there.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so yes I do hear a lot of stories from
[SPEAKER_02]: husband's at home who are wondering if she will come back.
[SPEAKER_02]: And 99% of the time, yes, she does.
[SPEAKER_02]: She really has come to explore.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's a physical desire.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's, I wonder what it would be like to touch, to kiss, to hold, to stroke, to, you know, to be affectionate with, to be intimate with another woman.
[SPEAKER_02]: I will carry up though that we have had four weddings at Scott Club.
[SPEAKER_02]: So,
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not always true.
[SPEAKER_02]: She comes back.
[SPEAKER_01]: And do you want someone that they want something else, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't want to imprison your partner, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I understand the sense of grievance, madness, come with it, but also if that's like who our partners are right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think as a partners, what up to loving things you can do is just support them in that journey.
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_02]: And honestly, if you love somebody, you must accept them for who they are.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if that's her sexuality that she wants to explore, I think the most loving thing you could do is to allow that and to support it, encourage it and be there, you know, to hear all the amazing stories when she gets home wants to relay that to you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm having so much more of that these days, compared to 12 years ago, it's a complete 180 on how it used to be.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'm good at curious, is how usually they see the journey of women, heterosexual women exploring their, that's kind of like bisexual identity through a scared club.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I share with you like at times I refer clients, I share the information with them, and they look it out, but I know you guys have networking and also events.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what do you see as a projectory of women experimenting and exploring this part of their
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, women, we like to connect first and foremost.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, we want to make friends.
[SPEAKER_02]: I do have a cute little word for this.
[SPEAKER_02]: I call it BBS by Besties.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's really nice to have a friend who gets it and I don't have to explain myself why I can't choose between men and women, which seems to confuse everybody in the world about bisexuality, the nice thing is that we don't have to choose.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're very certain about ourselves when we're not confused about our sexuality, but I do find the world struggles with that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so having a friend who gets it is really nice, having a friend with benefits who gets it is even better.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you know that these are all the sorts of situations that might occur at Sky Club, we're hosting everything from brunches, socials, cocktail hours, yoga, recently we did a perfume lab.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's all the networking activities and then yes, of course, we do more sexy events.
[SPEAKER_02]: These are called mini skirt or skirt club and these two events have a very sexual nature to them.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes just in the form of sexual performance.
[SPEAKER_02]: with the chance to place in the bottle with your new fan friends.
[SPEAKER_02]: And in the case of our signature parties, very much a full sexual experience with the chance to enjoy.
[SPEAKER_02]: What it might like be to have sex with a woman and most of them does have never done that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that is exciting to have options, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: I know many women, they love options.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I personally like options, like when I'm exploring things.
[SPEAKER_01]: But when it comes to like me, scared or scared-claw events, what do you think some of the fears that women have?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, do you usually people sign up for the kind of like, erotically charged experiences?
[SPEAKER_01]: Usually what's what have you been noticed?
[SPEAKER_01]: Or the most sleep people have this journey of exploring other things and then joining the erotic events.
[SPEAKER_02]: that there are many gates to enter a scope club with and really it comes down to her comfort level and her previous experience.
[SPEAKER_02]: So as much as it could be described as a journey, you know, start off at just a social and end with a full-blown orgy.
[SPEAKER_02]: That is a journey indeed.
[SPEAKER_02]: And yes, I would say a lot a lot of them do take those steps.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I advise that they do as well if they've never had an experience before, but equally I've seen women just arrive and
[SPEAKER_02]: I just want this sexual experience.
[SPEAKER_02]: I need it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I want it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I like it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm having it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And women are just as sexual as men.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know why people think, you know, men, they can't kind of help it, can't you?
[SPEAKER_02]: Constantly honing and women are too, hey, it's not like we just nuns here pretending to be all kind and and very good girls, you know, we have, we have needs and that's good too.
[SPEAKER_01]: You write that some people need to emotional connection.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm with you that sometimes people think about, oh, within the needs, the emotional connection first, before having sexual encounters, you write that there are values, ways that people explore intimacy and arrive.
[SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes people like to anonymous more sexual part of things, also more than the emotional connection.
[SPEAKER_01]: What are some of their surprising feedback or experiences you heard from your listeners from your participants that they attended those events?
[SPEAKER_02]: There's always a lot of shock actually at how it made them feel because it's usually an experience I've never had before in any way.
[SPEAKER_02]: First, because you're in a very luxurious environment, dressed very, once they're provocative, but feeling very sexual and what you're wearing,
[SPEAKER_02]: You've probably spent three hours preparing, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So you spent time calling it full play, preparing yourself or what might come, which is the mind's being activated into that space, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: I think what blows their mind is just how different it is to interacting with and kissing a man, because women were very soft and the nuances there.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we notice that you've put time and effort into
[SPEAKER_02]: preparing your hair and makeup and choosing what to wear and we're very complimenting of that.
[SPEAKER_02]: It feels so good to be seen and it feels so good to be hurt.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know we're intensely listening when we talk to what another I mean make the eye contact.
[SPEAKER_02]: and it's just so nice to be held in that presence.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think women forget what femininity feels like sometimes.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're often caught up in the rap race and meeting our deadlines and rushing to the next place, but often caught up in our masculine for that reason trying to fight far a little corner of the world.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so this is a very disarming environment.
[SPEAKER_02]: in addition, you know, we ask you to put your phones away, we ask you to be present, we ask you to come ready and, you know, that's, it's pretty sacred.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's pretty hard to find that environment today.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're so fast-paced in this world.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's difficult to just take the time for one another.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then of course,
[SPEAKER_02]: There's the moment where you do kiss another woman, and it can be life-changing for so many, they've fantasized about it for Europe, but they've never had the opportunity.
[SPEAKER_02]: And all the feelings, the Russian emotion, the dopamine, everything that comes with the first kiss, which for most of them was when they were much younger, you know, say early teams, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And he was in your mid 30s, or mid 40s, or even mid 50s, and having your first kiss again,
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like a rega.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just one of the most glorious rushes of body can feel.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm so grateful that there are spaces, like scared club, that people can go and feel safe, engaging in that, not coming from the place of performance because I know that many times women
[SPEAKER_01]: Feel the pressure of performance even in kind of like group experience says three sounds.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, through some can be excellent, awesome.
[SPEAKER_01]: But if you're doing something that's not aligned, the architectural orientation or your erotic energy, cat feels more performative.
[SPEAKER_01]: So coming out is definitely a journey for many people and there's no one right way to do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But if people are in monogamous relationships, do you want to share that part of themselves with the partner?
[SPEAKER_01]: That this is something that I'm exploring.
[SPEAKER_01]: How would you recommend that doing that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Would are some of the best practices that you have around that?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, it is a trap, isn't it?
[SPEAKER_02]: The performance.
[SPEAKER_02]: And actually that's actually why I started Scott Club because I was, I found myself out a comment event with an ex-boyfriend and I bought the tickets, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So I was kind of expecting to be the leader in that scenario, and yet because I was a female, everybody there treated me like every, you know, just slapping my ass and pulling me into.
[SPEAKER_02]: into their scenarios.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was watching partners and seeing her beings that have directed to go fetch the hot blonde in the corner in the former sexual moment.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I just thought, God, you know, no, I don't think anyone actually wants to be here, do they?
[SPEAKER_02]: So because women were just
[SPEAKER_02]: So, in fact, for reasons they were taught as young women, they were taught, survived, be compliant, do the things, don't speak, make him happy, or he'll cheat on you, at least that's what my mother told me, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, there's this fear, like my god, I don't do this, I'm going to lose the person who's in my life.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's probably also financially supporting me.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you have children, that's even more difficult situation to be in.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think women have just managed to check out and dissociate so well for so many years,
[SPEAKER_02]: So that was my feeling 15 years ago where I thought about this for the first time.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was like, would it be nice just to have a female-only event?
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we can actually just be ourselves.
[SPEAKER_02]: Especially relax.
[SPEAKER_02]: And by the way, nobody gets to know, no woman can ever orgasm, which is that she's relaxed.
[SPEAKER_02]: They stress does not allow that to happen.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you know, if you're hearing all the grown's coming in a sex party, like I question, how real those are.
[SPEAKER_02]: But so, you know, that's where this all this intention came from, originally.
[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, I find that that's another revelation for women that they can just let go for a minute.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's stressful being a woman, you know, like there's so many things that you've got to be going to do and to be accepted and I do love that woman just writing the rules right now for what suits them and a lot of women choosing themselves over a relationship because it's it's just more comfortable.
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely and I agree with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes you're a woman like because they haven't had kind of real erotic kind of connections, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: They haven't had embodied.
[SPEAKER_01]: connection.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel sometimes they just don't even know what does that look like.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, as they're going through the motion doing these things for the partner at six parties, because they haven't had that embodied experience, the reference that they have.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I'm not sexual or sex is as good as my partner enjoys it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So sometimes people they might not have those
[SPEAKER_01]: experience it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So with your own sexuality, if you're comfortable, you can share with us that these are something you have talked to your partners before and I'm like curious or something that you had you ended up coming out to.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, my experience was very much, you know, past partners feeling or expressing disgust, actually, at my sexuality.
[SPEAKER_02]: So throughout my 20s, I didn't have any experiences, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So it was anyone I got to my early 30s that I had a partner
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh my god, yeah, absolutely, please bring her home.
[SPEAKER_02]: And now I had a separate problem one where he was encouraging, but also wanting to participate, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So his goal was three sums of mind was like, I would just like to kiss a girl.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would just be nice by myself just so I can feel it and know how I feel.
[SPEAKER_02]: And part of that dilemma was what led me to bring it around to just women only so that they could do it on their own terms and not feel pressured.
[SPEAKER_02]: But so that was my journey and of course, here we are 12 years later, my current relationships and very much honest from the start because they know who I am and what I do.
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's this really no escaping it for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: My face is on many things to do with bisexuality.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's like this.
[SPEAKER_02]: synonymous.
[SPEAKER_02]: But of course, women members asked me frequently, you know, how do I tell him?
[SPEAKER_02]: And first of all, I'm like, oh, you know, how does he not already know?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because you've been related to jitter with me while he's know you at all.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, you need to tell him what's
[SPEAKER_02]: a fun way to tell him, okay, well, porn is a good one.
[SPEAKER_02]: What most men have answers this question?
[SPEAKER_02]: What do you like to watch on porn?
[SPEAKER_02]: And that'd be like, oh, cool.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's, I can tell now.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well, maybe we can watch it together.
[SPEAKER_02]: And like he'll get his, his favourites out, which, you know, for a fact he has.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then you can offer up yours, which will naturally be lesbian porn.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is a great gateway into, and this is what I like to do.
[SPEAKER_02]: Or would love to do one day as a fantasy.
[SPEAKER_02]: Would you
[SPEAKER_01]: So I love that, of course you have a script for it.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was such a great way of segmenting.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like sharing your robotic mind without creating that pressure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like opening the door.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think in reality, of course people don't need permission to explore their sexuality, but kind of like sharing it with intentionality can help the relational context if that's a part that you want to take.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, permission is an interesting one, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because women do seek commissions still.
[SPEAKER_02]: They absolutely do not need it.
[SPEAKER_02]: But we are so conditioned, often I find myself saying, ladies, if you need permission, you have it from me right now.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it just sets them off.
[SPEAKER_02]: And and it's in their heads just released from the, what happens if I go in trouble if I do this?
[SPEAKER_02]: And we'll say that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And
[SPEAKER_02]: And then, very able to let go.
[SPEAKER_02]: I do hope the day of no permission seeking is coming.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think it's around the corner women are changing so much every day that the whole world is changing so much every day.
[SPEAKER_02]: But society really is shifting with the how dynamic more center than ever.
[SPEAKER_01]: of thanks to cultural chefs and places similar to yours.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I get bet some of our listeners, they curious about your parties.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if they are curious about you, your parties, your community, what are some of the places they can find you?
[SPEAKER_02]: Our events?
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, hey, are you ready for this?
[SPEAKER_02]: We're in 36 cities, sorry.
[SPEAKER_02]: If we're talking US, we are in obviously New York, that would be our biggest community, I think over 9,000 members are living there.
[SPEAKER_02]: We are also in Boston, D.C. Atlanta, Miami, Fort Lauderdale, Chicago, Austin, San Diego, LA, San Francisco, Seattle.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we have ambassadors in some smaller cities as well who will do just socials, such as Connecticut and also Poland.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that do you assess for safety even people want to join communities because that's something they always kind of curious about.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so, you know, our ambassadors are recruited from our community.
[SPEAKER_02]: They've always been to an event first.
[SPEAKER_02]: They are given training and everybody's assignment and DA because confidentiality is very important still.
[SPEAKER_02]: You want your best.
[SPEAKER_02]: We want our private life to remain private and even if that's not, you're not someone in the public eye, it's incredibly important
[SPEAKER_02]: no one will be divulging information about you even if they don't have your name.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just a sense of security in terms of the community itself.
[SPEAKER_02]: There was an approval process to join our community.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you can't just jump in.
[SPEAKER_02]: We will need to approve your first.
[SPEAKER_02]: And of course, I do meet you in events in real life.
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll know even more certain that you are.
[SPEAKER_02]: You say you are.
[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, and women are very good also keeping watch reporting when they think something's not right to be just on a hunt for a feeling and we always look into that.
[SPEAKER_01]: beautiful.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's good to know that there are kind of, there are people and the process that help people to feel safe because there is a vulnerability that comes to exploring your sexual self and showing your true erotic self.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much, Genevieve, for coming to our show.
[SPEAKER_01]: People can find information you mentioned in the show notes and hopefully we'll see you in our future episode.
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for having me on.
[SPEAKER_01]: Bye.
[SPEAKER_01]: As we wrap up, I hope this conversation reminds you that sexual identity exploration doesn't automatically mean the end of a relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it does require emotional maturity, honesty, and safety.
[SPEAKER_01]: Fear is natural.
[SPEAKER_01]: The question is whether fear drives the conversation or curiosity that if you or your partner are navigating change, the most important thing you can protect is emotional safety.
[SPEAKER_01]: Safety, and before we close a quick reminder, if confidence and control in the bedroom is something you're working on, you can get 15% of steady-fledging with the code, 6-ology to support us and our sponsors.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for listening for staying open to complex conversation and for choosing
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for listening to Sixology Podcasts.
[SPEAKER_01]: For more great content, visit www.sixologypodcast.com.
[SPEAKER_01]: Please be advised that information presented on this podcast is not a substitute for seeking help from a licensed mental health provider.