[SPEAKER_01]: and welcome to our show.
[SPEAKER_01]: The shit no one tells you about writing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm best selling order Bianca Marie, and I'm joined by CC Lira of Wendy Sherman Associates and Carly Waters of PS Literary.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hi everyone, welcome back to another box with us.
[SPEAKER_01]: As per usual, we are diving straight in.
[SPEAKER_01]: Carly, can you please kick us off?
[SPEAKER_00]: I am not used to diving straight in anymore, because CC and I are always shooting the shit.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we had some good jokes before this guys, I'm sorry that you missed out on it, but here we go, straight into query letter.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have a lovely note from this person, I won't read it, but thank you for your lovely note.
[SPEAKER_00]: Dear Carly, I'm seeking representation for no comment, a contemporary bromance exploring lust, loyalty, and leather poisoning, and the high stakes poiled of Australian football.
[SPEAKER_00]: At 96,000 words, my debut novel will appeal to fans of Beth O'Leary and Ted Lasso.
[SPEAKER_00]: The narrative opens with Stephanie a known-on-sense PR manager for the embattled Northern Lightning Football Club, navigating a media frenzy surrounding the sacking of a star player Dylan Marshall, following yet another drug-fueled scandal.
[SPEAKER_00]: But can Stephanie keep her mind on the job of fending off rabbit journalists and protecting her club's reputation or is she otherwise occupied?
[SPEAKER_00]: Juggling a whirlwind of press conferences, a preseason match as Stephanie's personal life becomes increasingly entangled with her work despite her best efforts.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's Mark Campbell, a football player who's unexpected and illicit attention, stirs feeling she tries to suppress.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then there's Ashley Sullivan, a principal that tells journalists who's gentle for their patients, pushed the boundaries of her professional ethics.
[SPEAKER_00]: Whoever she chooses, Stephanie will be risking her career, franchising with players as a sackable offense, and she knows that even if she thinks about sleeping with the media, enemy, per head will be on the chopping block.
[SPEAKER_00]: Meanwhile, Stephanie's Zayney best friend and have a spate Francis has hooked up with yet another loser from Tinder,
[SPEAKER_00]: Stephanie wants to be excited about her friend's new relationship with Travis, but specs he's taking her for a ride.
[SPEAKER_00]: She recruits Ashley to do some digging and he covers much more than they bargained for.
[SPEAKER_00]: Will Stephanie's friendship survive this hurdle or will, Frances, shoot the messenger?
[SPEAKER_00]: As full time approaches, Stephanie is battered and bruised, sporting more than her fair share of grass stains.
[SPEAKER_00]: But in a race against the clock true love, takes a mark and kicks the winning goal just as the final siren sounds.
[SPEAKER_00]: No comment is inspired by the 11 years I spent working at two powerhouse football clubs in Perth and Melbourne.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've had a regular book review column with both the Sunday Times and the West Australian.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now spend my time writing about the wonders of superannionation.
[SPEAKER_00]: The first five pages are below in the full menu script plus a pitch for a sequel is available upon request.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for your time and consideration.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much, Coli.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, what's our word count there and what you'll take on?
[SPEAKER_00]: Alright, so our word count is approximately 379 words.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so...
[SPEAKER_00]: our title, we don't need a Talik, so for those of you who are going to be looking at the notes on Substack later, the title is in all caps plus a Talik, so just reminder, we only need all caps.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I don't know where this leather poisoning becomes in because like this is, at the top is where the hook is supposed to be.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we never hear about leather poisoning again.
[SPEAKER_00]: And leather poisoning sounds very serious.
[SPEAKER_00]: So then I was like, is this a thriller?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like are these people trying to poison each other?
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't really understand if this is a joke.
[SPEAKER_00]: And some of this will get to the kind of Australianness of this.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I really wish I had a good Australian accent that I could have read this in because obviously I could have added some flavor, but I don't.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I didn't subtract it to that.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know if this is some sort of Australian drink you have at the pub, a leather poisoner, I don't know, but I don't really think that that made any sense because it never comes back.
[SPEAKER_00]: So our comps here, Ted Lasso, a huge comp that I think we probably missed here is, and again speaks to the Australian, this is person might not know this show, but Kate Hudson had a show at Netflix called Running Point, where she's the GM of a basketball club in LA.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think that would be a comp here as well, but we obviously need some book comp to as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we have the Bethel theory there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Alright, so we have some rhetorical questions.
[SPEAKER_00]: I reworded the rhetorical question for you guys because we always say no rhetorical questions and then you guys probably think, what should we be doing instead?
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm gonna read the rhetorical question and then I'm gonna read you the way that I rewrote him.
[SPEAKER_00]: But can Stephanie keep her mind on the job fending off rapid journalists and protecting her club's reputation or is she otherwise occupied?
[SPEAKER_00]: We obviously know she's otherwise occupied because that's the whole point of the books.
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't need the question mark.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I would reframe it potentially as,
[SPEAKER_00]: But Stephanie struggles to focus on fending off rabbit journalist and protecting the club's reputation because she's distracted by two love interests at the club like something like that where it's a sentence it's not a question because again we already know the answer to this okay I really like you know a woman empowered the football club as a concept I think that's great so I think as I said the Ted last was stuff works here the kid Hudson running point stuff works here.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, the drug fueled scandals.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think scandals and football clubs are always going to be something that people are interested in so I like all that peace I think what I'm struggling with is this whole like love triangle bit because it's framed as whoever she chooses Stephanie will be risking her career.
[SPEAKER_00]: But why does she have to choose either like she doesn't have to choose?
[SPEAKER_00]: The two of them, there's like a million other men out there who are not potentially involved in this football club.
[SPEAKER_00]: So feels very insular on purpose, feels very club-centric on purpose.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I just didn't really agree with the framing that, you know, she has to choose one of these players.
[SPEAKER_00]: I really small flag for you, and again, this is just the North American context coming through, which is actually is absolutely a male and female name.
[SPEAKER_00]: In North America, it is more assumed that Ashley is a female name.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when I was reading this, I was a bit like maybe she's interested in a woman.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe this is like a bisexual love triangle, which is fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess I'm just trying to make you understand that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm flagging it for you that people might be like, is this a man, is this woman?
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know question mark, so that's up for you to just, you know,
[SPEAKER_00]: No, as a flag.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, the friend subplot.
[SPEAKER_00]: I do not understand why this friend subplot is in here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Subplots don't really belong in a query letter because they are subplot.
[SPEAKER_00]: They are not the main plot.
[SPEAKER_00]: So unless this has something to do with work, such as, you know, this guy Travis, again,
[SPEAKER_00]: It would be very insular once again, but if Travis has something to do with work, it makes sense or does Stephanie work at the club as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't really think there's any room for sub-lots in a very letter in most cases.
[SPEAKER_00]: There should be enough going on in the actual plot of this main character's life.
[SPEAKER_00]: for that to be the focus here.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then our last kind of body paragraph is way too many metaphors, you know, battered and bruised, grass stains.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, just she really have grass stains.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is like physical comedy where she's, I don't know, there's something where she falls when she's out in the grass, perhaps, but just really begs more questions than it does.
[SPEAKER_00]: Answers, you don't have to race against the clock, she'll uptakes a mark.
[SPEAKER_00]: I understand mark is in like, can you your marking this body?
[SPEAKER_00]: What you're gonna kick?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just too many metaphors, which we don't need.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love that you have experience working at these football clubs.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that is so cool.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I really do think there is something here.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just don't really think that we're focusing on the main character as much as we possibly can.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that would solve a lot of our problems.
[SPEAKER_01]: Awesome, Colleen.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, CC, what are your thoughts?
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I don't want to spend time echoing everything Carly said.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just want to say fully agree with that assessment.
[SPEAKER_02]: They love trying to go really tripped me up.
[SPEAKER_02]: I literally thought the same thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was like, well, didn't pick me there.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, you're telling me they're both options that make her lose her job.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is like a career centric story, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Which we love.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, okay, how about no option or like a third option?
[SPEAKER_02]: The front plot also tripped me up, especially because you end to that paragraph with a major dramatic question, will Stephanie's friendship survive this hurdle or will Francis shoot the messenger and that sort of framing is best reserved for the A plot, because that's what we want to be really invested in, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's actually really great that you have a front subplot.
[SPEAKER_02]: word really just saying that it doesn't necessarily belong in the query letter.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would also flag that the very last paragraph about the plot is very viby.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's very, like, as full-time approaches, Stephanie is battered in bruise, sporting more than her fair share of grass stains, but in a race against the clock, true love takes some arc and kicks the winning goal, just as the final siren sounds.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the impression I have when I read query letters like this, which happens quite often, is that you're very talented writer.
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, and you kind of wanted to show off your talent, which I get, like if I could write like this, I would want to show it off too, you know?
[SPEAKER_02]: But think about it this way, every sentence in your query letter should be propelling the story forward.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like that is the job of the query letter, and none thing about the sentence has any specificity to tell me.
[SPEAKER_02]: anything that's going on in order to propel the story forward.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm getting vibes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I don't know what true love takes in Mark Mames.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have no idea what kicks the winning goal.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I know you're talking literally about a winning goal, but I'm assuming it's also metaphorical.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't even understand what this race against the clock is, because if there's ticking time tension, it hasn't even been established in a plot specific way.
[SPEAKER_02]: So again, great, great potential here.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think of spectacular things, not as a comp, because clearly they're totally very different, but like that is said against the world of what Americans call soccer.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I adore that.
[SPEAKER_02]: like I adore that because it's high stakes, it's competitive, like there's just so much that could be really elevated in terms of storytelling when you set your story against that sort of world.
[SPEAKER_02]: Subcultures are amazing, but I think that you're maybe counting too much on that doing the work in the query letter.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I just wanted more plot specificity in a way that had those dominoes tipping over as opposed to satellite things.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like
[SPEAKER_02]: The friendship is here, the love triangle is here, and then you have this really vague paragraph about, you know, ooh, all these things are happening and what will happen, and I'm like, I don't really know what that means.
[SPEAKER_02]: I will say that your author paragraph is five stars, because it is short, it is sweet, it tells us your personal connection to the story, and it tells us your really good literary citizen.
[SPEAKER_02]: So like this is probably like one of the best author paragraphs I've ever read, because it's so to the point and just gives me so much, it tells me about you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I would be really excited to work with an author who has this kind of profile right a connection to the story Awesome literary citizenship.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's really good.
[SPEAKER_01]: And thank you for sharing Thank you, CC.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, Kali.
[SPEAKER_01]: Will you let us know what's in those opening pages?
[SPEAKER_00]: So we start with Stephanie and her office her phone is ringing all about this Player who's gotten trouble with the law the journalists have figured out what's going on and so they're calling her she's saying no comment no comment
[SPEAKER_00]: then she is told she has to go to the CEO's office where we figure out that it was a drug issue and they're trying to figure out how they're going to break it to everybody and that's kind of where we are.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so take us through your thoughts on that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Are we beginning in the right place?
[SPEAKER_01]: What do you think?
[SPEAKER_00]: So I really
[SPEAKER_00]: like these pages.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think they're very fun and spunky.
[SPEAKER_00]: I really like the dialogue and I do encourage everybody to go check it out in the sub-stack attachments because I actually really like the banter here.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think my one issue with these pages is I think one of the most important things about reading opening pages is that I, as the agent, have to believe that these characters have lived a life before they were on this page that they are real and full of human beings who
[SPEAKER_00]: tiptoe into their world in a way that I know that they've been existing long before I arrived.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think what I really struggled with here is I really felt like I was reading the quote-unquote beginning of a book.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I'll tell you one of the the science of this.
[SPEAKER_00]: So on the first page we have Stephanie's desk photos ringing, we have her say like, no, we have no further comment, edited it out, she hangs up for the phone, she picks up again.
[SPEAKER_00]: Know the decision on his playing future?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, that we made until after tonight's board meeting, hangs up.
[SPEAKER_00]: As if on cue, there's a third phone call.
[SPEAKER_00]: know there's no bad blood between the CEO and the senior coach.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then a couple pages later.
[SPEAKER_00]: She says her tender ear had been spent the better part of the day pushed up against the receiver.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you told me on the first page there's only been three calls because there was only three calls on the first page.
[SPEAKER_00]: But later on, it's that the phone has been ringing off the hook all day.
[SPEAKER_00]: So is it there's only three calls or is it that the phone was ringing off the hook all day?
[SPEAKER_00]: So it just kind of was one of those towels where I feel like you told her in yourself a little bit that on the first page there was three calls.
[SPEAKER_00]: If she's been at her phone all day, wouldn't she be like, this is the hundredth call or something kind of more inflammatory than the third call?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because really it's only the third call to the reader, but it should be the hundredth call in this character's life.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that was just something that really stood out to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: That I really felt like the pages were performing for the reader a little bit in a way that I didn't really think we had to do because I actually found this dialogue so punchy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because when it ends up happening is, you know, as she's dealing with all of this,
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the people that calls is one of her love interests and she's she like he's in the scrum.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is actually I believe is in the scrum with the journalist and she's like looking out the window.
[SPEAKER_00]: To him is he's calling her asking about what's going on with all of this drama.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's just like such great banter like I really was quite charmed by it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I really just felt like I was reading something a bit more performative when I really would have liked to just feel like I really was in the scene.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's really my main note.
[SPEAKER_00]: At the end, there is a bit of an info dump about the league, the last paragraph that we read is, nor are there enlightening or have been one of the original clubs to start the Victorian football league back in 1896.
[SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, you know, well done for doing your research, we do not need that type of information here.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just don't really think it adds that much flavor to the actual material at this point.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think it's really punchy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I really liked the banter.
[SPEAKER_00]: I really feel like you're gonna have some great scenes coming up but I just couldn't feel like I was reading a book.
[SPEAKER_02]: great calling thank you okay cc we should title this episode cc agrees with Carly yeah everything about let analysis yeah I agree with reflex all of my notes I will I guess to build off it suggest a few fixes
[SPEAKER_02]: for the authors, how they can maybe address these great notes.
[SPEAKER_02]: The way Carly framed that, performing for the reader is perfect.
[SPEAKER_02]: That is exactly what it felt like.
[SPEAKER_02]: And which is a shame because the stuff in between quotation marks, like the actual dialogue being said, was great.
[SPEAKER_02]: But what was missing, I think, and what could address the performing for the reader is interior already baked into the dialogue.
[SPEAKER_02]: We are talking sprinkles.
[SPEAKER_02]: We are not talking paragraphs and paragraphs.
[SPEAKER_02]: It actually won't affect your word count that much.
[SPEAKER_02]: But if you zoom in on certain lines of dialogue and add layers to what is being said, both how she interprets what is being said to her and what she is withholding when she speaks to someone else, you will actually have a much better chance of making us believe that she's a real person, because that is how human beings operate.
[SPEAKER_02]: In our minds, there are always more layers going on than compared to when we speak and when we're being spoken to.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's one way.
[SPEAKER_02]: Another way is when you're just when you're sharing facts about this world, such as that last paragraph, which I also flagged is a little bit of story-splaining heavy, but also another paragraph.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a paragraph that reads, Hayes didn't like being told who to hire even by the CEO and she didn't warm to Stephanie immediately, but six years and more than 150 footy games later Stephanie knows she's won her boss over.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hazes gruff but fair and fully deserving of her reputation as the queen of tough love.
[SPEAKER_02]: Although she usually skips the love part.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now notice that that is not facts, like we're not sharing facts here, I mean facts about a world, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not like the last paragraph that was info dumpy.
[SPEAKER_02]: It is facts about their relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: So if you were to weave in more depth, more psyche depth into those lines, you would actually probably achieve the goal of not performing for the reader.
[SPEAKER_02]: As an example, how does she feel about having had to perform for the boss?
[SPEAKER_02]: Is this like a story of her life situation?
[SPEAKER_02]: She was used to earning her place.
[SPEAKER_02]: She was used to people underestimating her.
[SPEAKER_02]: She was used to people not liking her and she is always up for a challenge.
[SPEAKER_02]: Or maybe no, maybe it was the first time it ever happened to us.
[SPEAKER_02]: In fact, whether something is typical or unusual for a protagonist, relationship thinks, plot things.
[SPEAKER_02]: That actually informs your protagonist's sociomotional framework
[SPEAKER_02]: which makes us believe that she existed before the page started.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because that's how human beings work.
[SPEAKER_02]: When I am interacting with someone, I'm plugging in mental modules to make sense of what is happening in front of me.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so the protagonist has to be doing that too.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm not seeing her plug-in mental modules here.
[SPEAKER_02]: A lot of people think that would you plug in mental modules?
[SPEAKER_02]: You're dragging the pace.
[SPEAKER_02]: But if you look at the great books, the great breakout books, they all do it.
[SPEAKER_02]: The woman in suite 11 is the sequel to woman in cabin 10.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's at the airport and she gets upgraded as a surprise, upgraded to first class.
[SPEAKER_02]: She goes through tons of mental modules to make sense of why she was upgraded to first class.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what the word count is, but it is significant.
[SPEAKER_02]: That is a thriller, a psychological thriller where the pace
[SPEAKER_02]: never supposed to drag and it isn't.
[SPEAKER_02]: In fact, when I am taken through her mental modules when I am taken through her interiority, processing that upgrade, which actually is quite relevant to the plot later, I am learning how she makes sense of the world.
[SPEAKER_02]: I am learning how she interprets.
[SPEAKER_02]: I am learning what her go to immediate interiority reactions are, which she's aware of, and what she's not because Ruth wears so talented she also weaves in the unconscious there.
[SPEAKER_02]: that is a advanced skill.
[SPEAKER_02]: And a lot of writers, I'm actually really surprised about this.
[SPEAKER_02]: A lot of writers know how to do it, but you know why they don't do it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because they get advice that is, oh, everything should serve the story.
[SPEAKER_02]: And they take that to mean, if the plot is in moving forward, I'm not going to spend time on the word count.
[SPEAKER_02]: Mistake.
[SPEAKER_02]: Your job as a storyteller is to not just add forward momentum, but to add depth.
[SPEAKER_02]: and depth requires interiority.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think that that is what you have to do to tackle these pages and I think you can have something really special.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I hope it's useful advice to you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, CC.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, before we move on to our next query letter, let's hear from our sponsors.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, CC, we're moving on to your query letter.
[SPEAKER_01]: Will you please read it for us?
[SPEAKER_02]: Dear Ms. Leera, a newly-osted state legislator facing crucial professional and personal decisions, navigates political chaos and finds love in the most unexpected of places as the clock on his term in office ticked towards Midnight.
[SPEAKER_02]: PitoPake can't help himself is my humorous novel, complete at 89,000 words.
[SPEAKER_02]: I am hoping to work with you because of your interest in adult commercial fiction, particularly novels featuring intelligent protagonists in high-pressure situations.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have also been very impressed with the agenting approach that you discuss on your podcast of which I am a new and grateful listener.
[SPEAKER_02]: PitoPake can't help himself is similar in both tone and insider knowledge,
[SPEAKER_02]: to the recently published political novel's Mr. Texas, Lawrence Wright, campaign widows, Amy Agresty, and the Global War on Morris.
[SPEAKER_02]: Steve Israel.
[SPEAKER_02]: It is also like the television show parts in recreation, idealistic and decent main character, with a little house of cards, political ruthlessness by others thrown in for kicks.
[SPEAKER_02]: He will appeal to fans of politics, rom-coms, and pop culture, as well as anyone who suffers from an identity crisis after a personal or professional loss.
[SPEAKER_02]: It needs a good guy to believe in during these politically chaotic times, or perhaps more importantly, just once a fun read.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like my main character, I too, was once a popular young state legislator.
[SPEAKER_02]: During my 25 years in politics at government, I have written an edited hundreds of policy reports, opinion pieces, press releases, and speeches, and have experienced the highs and lows of a career that, by its very nature, depends on the whims of others.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have
[SPEAKER_02]: also taught legal writing at our local law school for 10 years.
[SPEAKER_02]: My real passion, however, has always been writing fiction, which is something that I now have more time and energy on which to focus.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have been an active member of Penwriters, a statewide writing community here in Pennsylvania with over 400 members,
[SPEAKER_02]: Since 2017 and a board member since 2020, per your submission guidelines I am submitting the first five pages I am proud to have won first place novel beginning in penwriters annual writing contest for this piece.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would appreciate the opportunity to send all or part of the novel for your review.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you in advance for your time and consideration.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, thank you, CC.
[SPEAKER_01]: Alright, what was, what was the word camp?
[SPEAKER_01]: So the word count was 389 words.
[SPEAKER_02]: We might want to consider asking on books with hooks, where people are in the process.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, are you submitting this query letter before you've ever submitted it?
[SPEAKER_02]: Have you submitted it?
[SPEAKER_02]: Have you gotten by?
[SPEAKER_02]: Have you gotten full requests?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I'm actually really curious to know,
[SPEAKER_02]: where this person is in the process.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because in the end, I know they say, you know, I would appreciate the opportunity to send this to you, but maybe that's just query letter jargon that he is adding because he wants us to make sure I to vet it so that when he does send it to agents, he wants to make sure that that's something that he can say.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'll tell you why I had this specific question pop in my mind.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's no plot in the query letter.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I read the first paragraph which has the hook and has, you know, why he's choosing me because I like intelligent protagonist facing high pressure situations and then there's the comps like a lot of words for the comps, you know, you have all these comps and then we have.
[SPEAKER_02]: who this will appeal to, fans of pop culture or fans of rom-coms, and then the next paragraph is the author bio.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, well, where's the plot?
[SPEAKER_02]: Did you forget?
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you do not know your plot yet?
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe you're still working on this manuscript, which is totally fair, but if you are indeed a listener of our podcast, which Rob, I'm going to be honest with you, when I read this, I was like, I don't know the actual listen to books with hoax, maybe you listen to the other segments.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know you need plot in your trailer.
[SPEAKER_02]: In fact, a great way to weave in plot here would be to take a look at your comps.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not familiar with any of them, but I did look them up and they seem like fine editorial comps.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not sure if the last two have enough sales to merit being good sales comps, but they do work as editorial comps.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so go look at these comps because I look them up and they all have very clear plot in their pitch copy.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, what does a protagonist want?
[SPEAKER_02]: What's standing in their way?
[SPEAKER_02]: What happens if they don't get it with specificity, with escalation?
[SPEAKER_02]: It is true that your hook is doing a lot, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like your hook does have plot embedded in it.
[SPEAKER_02]: but it's not a hate.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is the protagonist, and this is his journey and here are the obstacles he's facing, and this is why it matters, like we didn't get to that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so you will need words, because your word count is already at 3.89 without plot.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I highlighted excerpts of this cray letter, which I personally believe can go, just because not because they're bad but because you will need this space, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I also would flag this, and this is something that happens with like I wanna say about 15% of the cray letters we got on our slush pile too.
[SPEAKER_02]: your author bio is very impressive, truly, all the plus, but there are two author bio paragraphs because the fact that this one, the contest counts,
[SPEAKER_02]: And together, I think they're like 150 words.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that is essentially half of what a query letter should be just on your author bio.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I understand, like I understand one to share who you are, but we just saw an author bio that's actually quite perfect in the previous submission.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's short, it's to the point, it tells me something things that I wanna hear makes me excited to work with a person like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think that you have to really, really condense and compress this author paragraph because it is way too long.
[SPEAKER_02]: The hook is interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, like the hook is an interesting hook.
[SPEAKER_02]: I like that you're making the tone clear, but I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can't give you notes on your story because I don't know what the protagonist's journey is.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have a sense after having read the pages, but again, just based on the query letter, I have no concrete sets.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, CC.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, Holly, handing it across to you.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, this is an episode where we just agree with each other, but I'm going to say what CC said, and I still hit the different way.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I agree, Rob, I'm going to be honest with you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how many episodes of our show that you have listened to.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you did this to a bunch, maybe we didn't specify the method in which we like to see the queries, which is the hook book cook method, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So the hook.
[SPEAKER_00]: the book and then the cook is the you, the paragraph about you.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is a hook cook cook.
[SPEAKER_00]: There is no book.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is what I see.
[SPEAKER_00]: The only plot that I see is that little opening line about newly hosted state legislator.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's really the only amount that we actually see about the book.
[SPEAKER_00]: This really relies on
[SPEAKER_00]: Comps, market, because you talk about appeals to fans of politics, rom-coms, pop culture, anyone who suffers an identity crisis after personal professional loss needs to be a good guy to believe in during these political, the chaotic times, perhaps more importantly, just once a fun read.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a lot of people.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not even a market.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's just like a list of characteristics.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm not convinced that you know who you're writing for.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think you're framing this as you have somebody in mind that you're writing for.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I'm not actually sure that you do because that's not really a specific person.
[SPEAKER_00]: And with the list of comps that you have, I don't know, I'm honestly just not convinced about the positioning.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I agree with CC.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think potentially we're catching you at a very early point in your querying
[SPEAKER_00]: journey or the point where you're trying to figure out how to pitch this book.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think that we're there in terms of how we're accomplishing it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would go back to the hook, cook, cook, method, and abandon your hook, cook, cook, cook, method because I just, I don't think that's working.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Kali.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, CC.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, we hand it across to you now, and hopefully we're gonna get some plot in those opening pages.
[SPEAKER_02]: Listen, I just want to say that this show is called The Shinton tells you about writing and that's slightly scatological and these pages are gonna be too.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is not a criticism, by the way.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just warning people.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you, if you were squeamish, okay, so we begin with what I am assuming is a sneaky prologue.
[SPEAKER_02]: Chapter one, last day in office November 30th, Speaker K says that our protagonist has invoked Rule 86.
[SPEAKER_02]: He barks back the hell I have, and she directs the sergeant at arms to remove him, and everyone is just like essentially booing him out, except for one compassionate face that
[SPEAKER_02]: So he is kicked out and the case chief of staff leaves and he tells her Nora, I didn't do anything wrong, what just happened and he doesn't get any clarity on what happened.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so then we have chapter two.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that is three weeks earlier, which is why I'm calling chapter one a sneaky pro-lock.
[SPEAKER_02]: We have him waking up in the morning with his alarm clock.
[SPEAKER_02]: Essentially saying, hey, I, this is a really important day for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's an election, you know, it's gonna, my candidate's gonna win.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's no issue, but then poop.
[SPEAKER_02]: gate happens, which is essentially that the candidate who was a shoe into win passes gas and then goes to the bathroom and like the media's like reporting on how long he's been in the bathroom and what a big deal this is and our protagonist kind of you know follows along with with with poop gate so yeah that's what happens
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it sounds like modern-day politics to me, but that's just me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, CC, what's your take on it?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's hard to compete with modern-day politics because so much of it feels like, I, are you sure that's not fiction?
[SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, I want to first address the sneaky prologue.
[SPEAKER_02]: The man is kicked out of a session by his long-time family friend and political ally.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is Disney Reading for Peter.
[SPEAKER_02]: Who cares?
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's no surprise in his interior, like he yells the hell I have and he says that he didn't do anything wrong.
[SPEAKER_02]: He says he says what about his mind and his emotions like is he shocked that she didn't this What are his theories like why would she be doing this?
[SPEAKER_02]: I did he expect support from everyone else, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: People booed him.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just don't know his emotions like I genuinely have no idea After reading chapter one, I felt mostly confusion
[SPEAKER_02]: I understand that he's being kicked out, like I understand that that plot happened, but I don't understand why, and I think he doesn't either, so that's fine, but I don't know his theories about why.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm also not understanding how he feels about it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like his reaction is anger, but like what other emotions is he feeling specifically towards gay, specifically towards the sergeant at arms, specifically towards the galley, and he's also not zooming out and doing
[SPEAKER_02]: which is when you're thinking about things that aren't in scene in front of you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I promise you that there's no such thing as a human being who would be kicked out in a high pressure situation like this and wouldn't engage in transcendent thinking.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, his interior didn't feel realistic because he would be actively trying to make sense of things, as well as considering what it means for him in practical terms, like being kicked out in one of his last moments in an elected office.
[SPEAKER_02]: Is it a situation where it's like, well, is my last moment anyways, so I'm going to go home.
[SPEAKER_02]: Is it a situation where his legacy can't be fulfilled?
[SPEAKER_02]: you know like if he had if he could just get back into that room he could fulfill his legacy but he can because he's on the outside and that would make me care more right because I'd be like oh juicy curious like is there a bill that won't pass because he can't be in that room will this taint his record will this affect his next professional endeavors right like I don't always gonna do next so like what specific consequences does he predict will arise from this it is important for all storytellers to remember you are a god who has
[SPEAKER_02]: and our brains, our human brains, are predicting machines.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're always predicting.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're pulling mental modules from the past to fit into the present, to predict the future.
[SPEAKER_02]: The future means what happens next in story.
[SPEAKER_02]: And he's not doing this.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, like he's just not doing this.
[SPEAKER_02]: I do think that this is heavily, heavily missing from these pages.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I want to say, and I'm saying this with all the love in the world,
[SPEAKER_02]: You promised me, in the query letter, an intelligent protagonist facing a high pressure situation.
[SPEAKER_02]: If your protagonist is not sinking, sinking interesting intelligent thoughts, he's not intelligent.
[SPEAKER_02]: He might be, but I won't, I won't know it.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, he will seem unintelligent, in fact.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if the situation is high pressure, it's not enough to tell me that he's in a political situation in session.
[SPEAKER_02]: You have to tell me something like why it matters to him.
[SPEAKER_02]: Again, like I said his legacy, a build that he's trying to bathe, I don't know, I don't know what it could be, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: But you know this, but like, why is it high pressure?
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, why is it high pressure?
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure there's a hint in the fact that the person who kicked him out as a family friend, maybe there's messy relationships there, that would be interesting, but it just feels like you're keeping us at arms length, and I don't know why, I don't know if it's because you're still figuring out the story.
[SPEAKER_02]: hands on my question about where are you in the process?
[SPEAKER_02]: Or if it's because you're like, oh, I don't want to share all my goods yet.
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to keep a few things up my sleep.
[SPEAKER_02]: Do not do that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Do not keep anything up your sleep.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, obviously keep some things.
[SPEAKER_02]: But like give us enough, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this, this is no to this.
[SPEAKER_02]: I am missing how he processes things.
[SPEAKER_02]: Why it matters to him.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, what his emotionality is.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll give you an example from not the first chapter.
[SPEAKER_02]: Chapter two.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a line that reads, I stopped the channel surfing to check the world's last working Blackberry smartphone, permanently hosted to my right hip.
[SPEAKER_02]: Why does he have the world's oldest Blackberry?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like why hasn't he made the switch?
[SPEAKER_02]: What does it say about him?
[SPEAKER_02]: What does it say about his choices?
[SPEAKER_02]: His place in the world?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like you are not letting us into his psyche.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't need to know, I don't need depth specifically on the Blackberry.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like if that's not the word you want to add depth, fine.
[SPEAKER_02]: but I do need depth on something.
[SPEAKER_02]: He reports, he's a reporter of facts.
[SPEAKER_02]: He reports what happens with the candidate and poop gate.
[SPEAKER_02]: But he doesn't process it through his unique filter, and that is what a protagonist is.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's actually a very advanced skill that storytellers have to master, but master it you must.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, those are minutes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, CC.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, Kali,
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I will just start with the fact that right away I felt like this book was not for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I felt like the fact that I am not a lawyer and I have no law background and I don't know anything about, you know, the particular is about how this works.
[SPEAKER_00]: I felt very much like right away.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, oh, this isn't a book for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because, you know, everything from just talking about the House of Representatives and then
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, has invoked rule 86.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like am I supposed to know what rule 86 is right away I just really felt like this wasn't for me and so I really was under the assumption that you have to know something about the Watch really understand that so right away I'm kind of like on my heels a little bit about this then chapter two We're right into the getting out of bed.
[SPEAKER_00]: Why are we getting out of bed?
[SPEAKER_00]: Why are we starting to chapter somebody getting out of bed?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know like there's no movement here.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no secrets.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a very like you know This is how we start our day business
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm not a huge fan of that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I really just didn't understand how all of this kind of was connected.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I didn't really understand the setting.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know where we are in time and place.
[SPEAKER_00]: Why does he have the world's oldest black barrier?
[SPEAKER_00]: I also flagged that, like, if this is set 10 years ago, 10 or 20 years ago, even 10 years ago, black barriers would kind of be out of fashion.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I feel like there's a lot to be said here that is being said about,
[SPEAKER_00]: where this is taking place, why it is taking place at this time, and who is this book for?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because as I said in the query letter, you think this book is for a lot of people.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a politics rom-com, pop culture, you know, professional personal loss, you know, chaotic times, fun reads.
[SPEAKER_00]: I really feel like you actually do have a very particular person in mind, and it's somebody that understands the law.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I really just didn't feel like you understood your book as well as you could have for me as a literary agent to think,
[SPEAKER_00]: I felt really outside the bounds of this one, so it's going to be hard for me to provide any feedback.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think sometimes writers internalize the whole show don't tell thing a bit too much because from what I get from the blackberry is he's trying to show that this character is very resistant to change is someone who's very old school and has had this blackberry forever and we must infer that from world's oldest blackberry and the same goes in the beginning not explaining
[SPEAKER_01]: The line reads in Voked Rule 86.
[SPEAKER_01]: right.
[SPEAKER_01]: So then the right to go, okay, but if I explain what that is, then that is telling as opposed to showing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I have a sense that this writer is kind of struggling with finding that balance of being like, okay, this is all showing, no telling, and finding the balance for sometimes we do need telling, whether it's interiority, whether it's emotionality, etc., it can't just be that everything is a fly on the wall who's watching the scene playing out.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, that's kind of the sense that I get CC.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that is a brilliant insight and I think you diagnosed it perfectly and what I would say to anyone listening is, and of course this is my opinion.
[SPEAKER_02]: But can I just say I'm actually really smart and good in what it comes to dissecting books so you should listen to my opinion, don't listen to me about other stuff like navigation.
[SPEAKER_02]: Show don't tell is the dumbest rule ever to exist on the face of this planet when it comes to storytelling.
[SPEAKER_02]: You need show and you need to tell, you need both.
[SPEAKER_02]: Release your inner child, show and tell, do both.
[SPEAKER_02]: If anyone is thinking but I want my reader to be a copilot, I want my reader to ask Bianca said in a fur that the blackberry is a sign that he has resistance to change brilliant, allow your reader to infer.
[SPEAKER_02]: Two things, your reader can't be inferring, everything.
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, like it can be every single thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Give us hands about how he sees himself, especially because he doesn't have to have the same inference that you will.
[SPEAKER_02]: You are interpreting that he is resistant to change, but he could be like, I value tradition.
[SPEAKER_02]: and I couldn't give me even more about him.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm now inferring even more interpreting even more.
[SPEAKER_02]: I actually don't know if it's inferring interpret, but it doesn't matter.
[SPEAKER_02]: The point is, the reader will do more work.
[SPEAKER_02]: The reader will always find new layers.
[SPEAKER_02]: If anyone is concerned, if I do too much telling, if I add too many layers, there won't be layers for the reader.
[SPEAKER_02]: The human brain is a miracle.
[SPEAKER_02]: There are always more layers.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, they're always more layers.
[SPEAKER_02]: And your job is never to explain.
[SPEAKER_02]: Explaining is never the job.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's contextualizing.
[SPEAKER_02]: The difference is context comes through a protagonist unique socio-emotional filter.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's emotion.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a difference between the building, sat in the middle of a busy road to every time I looked at that building, I had anxiety and not just because it sat in the middle of a busy road.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like there's emotion infused in it and so it's coming from a person's perspective and not from as Bianca said a fly on the wall or a CCTV camera, we have other mediums of storytelling that do mostly showing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Books are not one of them and if anyone thinks they are go pick up a best-selling novel, you'll see what I'm saying.
[SPEAKER_01]: You will.
[SPEAKER_01]: Amazing!
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much to both of you as per usual for your excellent insights, for anyone who would like to submit to books with hooks, go to theshedaboutwriting.com and find our books with hooks section and I will figure out a way to put in CC's suggestions so we can figure out where you are in the process, which might help both of them in terms of their feedback.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks so much everyone, see you next week.
[SPEAKER_01]: Bye!
[SPEAKER_01]: CCLera is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you'd like to query CC, please refer to the Submission Guidelines at www.wshoman.com.
[SPEAKER_01]: Carly Waters is a literary agent at PS Literary Agency, but a work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency,
[SPEAKER_01]: and the views expressed by Kali on this podcast are solely that of her as a podcast co-host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS literary agency.