WEBVTT 00:01.870 --> 00:07.983 [SPEAKER_02]: Welcome to another episode of Shooting the Shit with Literary Agents, Carly Waters, and CC Lyra. 00:08.484 --> 00:13.834 [SPEAKER_02]: Where we dissect publishing gossip, discuss book industry trends, and the overall state of the book business. 00:14.255 --> 00:18.985 [SPEAKER_02]: If you'd ever wanted to grab a coffee with two literary agents, grab your mug, and pull up a chair. 00:26.238 --> 00:26.999 [SPEAKER_02]: Hi, C.C. 00:27.039 --> 00:27.680 [SPEAKER_02]: How are you doing today? 00:28.280 --> 00:29.842 [SPEAKER_01]: Good, busy and good. 00:29.942 --> 00:32.385 [SPEAKER_01]: How about you, busy and good too? 00:32.405 --> 00:38.472 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'm in the middle of an offer, so I was just like throwing things together for this call, working on that. 00:38.932 --> 00:42.576 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, just stay in the life of an agent, life of a show girl, as Taylor Swift would say. 00:42.656 --> 00:43.978 [SPEAKER_02]: So we're just for plug-in along. 00:44.018 --> 00:47.222 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know how long it's up, so it's going to be today because both of us have to get back to work. 00:47.322 --> 00:50.305 [SPEAKER_02]: So we will do our very best to jam as much as we can. 00:50.993 --> 00:51.655 [SPEAKER_01]: We will. 00:51.835 --> 00:53.780 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's nice to have a break in chat. 00:54.301 --> 01:07.332 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, it's nice to have this, even though, again, whether it's an offer, whether it's a contract, whether it's organized in calls with interested parties, whatever it is that we're doing, it's nice to be like, okay, 45 minute break to chat. 01:07.396 --> 01:08.678 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yes, exactly. 01:09.039 --> 01:15.150 [SPEAKER_02]: And you know, one of the things I love about doing this is it keeps me up on publishing news because I'm always like, what a lady to know what a chat about with CC or update the audience. 01:15.571 --> 01:16.954 [SPEAKER_02]: I enjoy that part of it. 01:16.994 --> 01:17.735 [SPEAKER_02]: I enjoy talking to you. 01:17.755 --> 01:19.078 [SPEAKER_02]: This is we don't work together anymore. 01:19.258 --> 01:21.282 [SPEAKER_02]: And I get to see you on a weekly basis, which is good. 01:22.244 --> 01:23.025 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's fine. 01:23.883 --> 01:24.404 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 01:24.424 --> 01:27.749 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, things that are going on to be announced the Calgary Conference. 01:27.809 --> 01:32.096 [SPEAKER_02]: So you guys all know where to see us when words collide.org. 01:32.116 --> 01:32.958 [SPEAKER_02]: You can grab your tickets. 01:32.978 --> 01:35.982 [SPEAKER_02]: We'll be in Calgary August 13th to 16th. 01:36.063 --> 01:38.406 [SPEAKER_02]: And we're very excited to see you guys in person. 01:38.487 --> 01:41.011 [SPEAKER_02]: So we hope that we will be to a person and see you there. 01:41.972 --> 01:42.954 [SPEAKER_01]: It'll be so much fun. 01:43.254 --> 01:45.077 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, it's our first conference. 01:45.097 --> 01:46.980 [SPEAKER_01]: The three of us together, like so excited. 01:47.000 --> 01:48.102 [SPEAKER_01]: First of many I hope. 01:48.520 --> 01:49.281 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, exactly. 01:49.341 --> 01:56.653 [SPEAKER_02]: And the organizers think that they have the tech abilities to record it as a live podcast, so we'll be able to kind of share later with everybody. 01:57.013 --> 02:00.579 [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, fingers crossed all the tech wizards and tech ghosts support us that day. 02:00.599 --> 02:06.208 [SPEAKER_02]: Cause we thought at the start of this call, we were gonna have some tech ghosts, but it's easy battle to tech ghosts and came back and all this while. 02:07.117 --> 02:08.881 [SPEAKER_01]: I always offer the tech ghost to cookie. 02:09.142 --> 02:11.548 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, if I give you a cookie, will you stop haunting me? 02:11.748 --> 02:13.473 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, come on, tech ghost. 02:13.493 --> 02:14.094 [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, yes. 02:14.475 --> 02:15.859 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I have enough dates. 02:15.879 --> 02:23.758 [SPEAKER_02]: Personal slash professional, I guess, which is, I've like slightly full and out of love with Instagram at teensy tiny bit, because there's sometimes when I, 02:23.738 --> 02:32.468 [SPEAKER_02]: I have found Instagram's such a great medium over the last five years, or, you know, I've actually been like professionalizing at Palette for 10 years, but I do, I've enjoyed it, right? 02:32.488 --> 02:34.531 [SPEAKER_02]: There's like the visual element, the storytelling element. 02:34.571 --> 02:36.373 [SPEAKER_02]: We can do the stories, we can do the carousels. 02:36.813 --> 02:44.422 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just lately finding like, when I have something to say, I'm not thinking like, oh, I can't wait to figure out how to put this on Instagram. 02:44.462 --> 02:47.886 [SPEAKER_02]: I have a time make sense at all, but like the carousels, it's clunky sometimes. 02:47.906 --> 02:51.050 [SPEAKER_02]: I have stories and like, who knows how many people are going to see this? 02:51.130 --> 02:52.632 [SPEAKER_02]: Reels. 02:52.612 --> 02:55.496 [SPEAKER_02]: Again, people don't have their volume on or, you know, it might not go to them. 02:55.556 --> 02:59.862 [SPEAKER_02]: So, I, I launched a sub-stack completely as a blue as what I decided to do. 03:00.363 --> 03:04.048 [SPEAKER_02]: Because I used to have this series on Instagram that I used to do in the weekends. 03:04.148 --> 03:06.912 [SPEAKER_02]: What it was like anything that's on my mind I would call it the weekend rant. 03:07.352 --> 03:11.979 [SPEAKER_02]: And I would rant, like, in my Instagram stories, kind of like essay style of, you know, whatever was on my mind. 03:12.520 --> 03:15.964 [SPEAKER_02]: So I'd rant it about why I think everybody should break up with their smart watches. 03:16.365 --> 03:18.328 [SPEAKER_02]: I've ranted about sports betting. 03:18.368 --> 03:22.213 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I just take topics that are on my mind 03:22.683 --> 03:28.109 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I've just kind of completely critiqued my Instagram, so I started a sub stack, which and I called it the weekend rant. 03:28.129 --> 03:37.540 [SPEAKER_02]: So if you guys want to come and hang out on the weekend, I'm going to post one to two as a style things that are on my mind on the weekends and I launched to already this past weekend. 03:38.021 --> 03:41.885 [SPEAKER_02]: One was about the memoir strangers, which you and I talked about on the show. 03:42.446 --> 03:45.349 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think one of the things that's great about sub stack is 03:45.329 --> 03:47.975 [SPEAKER_02]: it's writing a such a way to process your thoughts. 03:48.356 --> 04:00.703 [SPEAKER_02]: And I love talking about things with you on the show, but it is often like, you know, I don't always know how to come up with my thoughts together verbally all the time, but the writing, you know, you can kind of process it, tag things, link things together that you're thinking about. 04:00.783 --> 04:03.810 [SPEAKER_02]: So, so I wrote about strangers, 04:03.790 --> 04:07.119 [SPEAKER_02]: and how I connected it to kind of lots of different things that I was thinking about. 04:07.159 --> 04:10.147 [SPEAKER_02]: And then I wrote a story about Cecilia, don't you saw this? 04:10.388 --> 04:11.932 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if you've seen myself take yet. 04:12.534 --> 04:16.063 [SPEAKER_02]: I got duped by an AI-pirated book. 04:16.364 --> 04:16.946 [SPEAKER_02]: Did I tell that? 04:17.407 --> 04:19.352 [SPEAKER_02]: So, for the book. 04:19.332 --> 04:26.807 [SPEAKER_02]: For real and everyone from this is my sub-stack because I tried to buy culpability the novel culpability I tried to buy it on Amazon. 04:26.847 --> 04:36.345 [SPEAKER_02]: I was like absent mindedly just like did to do trying to buy it on Instagram The book that showed up was a pirated AI slot physical POD print on a man book 04:36.325 --> 05:00.696 [SPEAKER_02]: And so I write about it in my stuff stack about like, I, the person who talk about this all the time was completely dupped by this and I link it to, you know, things I'm thinking about with like the mirror world and, you know, and now me it's not double ganger and anyway, I just I connected to a bunch of dots and things that I was thinking about because culpabilities about AI so it's just like so ironic that I got duped by a pirate at AI slot version of culpability. 05:00.676 --> 05:02.160 [SPEAKER_02]: when I was trying to read the real book. 05:02.180 --> 05:04.345 [SPEAKER_02]: So anyway, that was my second set of stuff. 05:04.465 --> 05:04.926 [SPEAKER_02]: So meta. 05:05.147 --> 05:06.951 [SPEAKER_02]: I like what? 05:07.112 --> 05:09.398 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's why I really had to write about it. 05:09.438 --> 05:11.523 [SPEAKER_02]: So coming out with me, it's called the weekend rant. 05:11.844 --> 05:14.751 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's the weekend rant.substack.com. 05:14.771 --> 05:16.896 [SPEAKER_02]: It's obviously like two and all my socials. 05:16.876 --> 05:38.428 [SPEAKER_02]: So come hang out and let me know about what you think about me being completely dupped by AI and I needed to write about it and the best part is Bruce found my article Bruce the author of culpability comment it like did it it It's like Bruce is the real Bruce and then he commented he's like, how do you know it's the real Bruce so great things are happening in the comments over on my weekend rant 05:38.408 --> 05:39.590 [SPEAKER_01]: So stack it up. 05:39.610 --> 05:40.070 [SPEAKER_01]: I like that. 05:40.211 --> 05:43.475 [SPEAKER_01]: I will be subscribing because I'm excited to know what your weekend rants are. 05:43.495 --> 05:45.658 [SPEAKER_01]: I definitely read your weekend rants on Instagram. 05:45.818 --> 05:46.179 [SPEAKER_01]: I agree. 05:46.199 --> 05:48.642 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not just medium for long form, but I don't know. 05:49.143 --> 05:52.448 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not a story's watcher at all. 05:52.708 --> 05:54.731 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I don't know what's happening on Instagram. 05:54.871 --> 05:58.236 [SPEAKER_01]: Again, I do not have a relationship with social media that a lot of people do. 05:58.316 --> 06:02.582 [SPEAKER_01]: Like the whole, I have to forget it exists sometimes, even though I post often. 06:02.642 --> 06:03.543 [SPEAKER_01]: I literally forget it. 06:03.583 --> 06:04.604 [SPEAKER_01]: I love that for you. 06:04.624 --> 06:05.766 [SPEAKER_01]: I never missed a rant. 06:05.746 --> 06:11.861 [SPEAKER_01]: No, I never miss the time from yours because because I like what I like is that it's meaty, like there's actual thought that went behind it. 06:12.001 --> 06:15.670 [SPEAKER_01]: And I find that more and more takes on Instagram. 06:16.211 --> 06:17.835 [SPEAKER_01]: This is a generalized comment, of course, right? 06:17.855 --> 06:20.762 [SPEAKER_01]: But all conversation involves some form of generalization. 06:20.802 --> 06:23.248 [SPEAKER_01]: But more and more takes, they're just, 06:23.549 --> 06:25.171 [SPEAKER_01]: Not using empty as a mean word. 06:25.211 --> 06:26.693 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just using like I've heard it before. 06:26.833 --> 06:30.337 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, like it's it's the same thing I've heard before and there's nothing wrong with it. 06:30.437 --> 06:39.588 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's okay for people to say the same thing, but when it comes to me consuming content, I kind of want to hear the same thing over and over again, you know, I want to hear and really individualized perspective. 06:39.629 --> 06:53.185 [SPEAKER_01]: I want someone's point of view. 06:53.738 --> 06:54.540 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you. 06:54.560 --> 06:54.900 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you. 06:55.742 --> 06:57.185 [SPEAKER_02]: It was time to put those thoughts somewhere. 06:57.907 --> 06:58.167 [SPEAKER_02]: Alright. 06:58.207 --> 07:09.250 [SPEAKER_02]: My next thing up for you is you asked the question a couple weeks ago and then we kind of both answered the question, which is, we usually do some sort of stats question or numbers related question or something to quiz each other on. 07:09.398 --> 07:12.442 [SPEAKER_02]: So I have prepared a question for you today, Sam. 07:13.283 --> 07:13.644 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 07:13.664 --> 07:13.764 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 07:13.804 --> 07:15.746 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's kind of like a mad limb. 07:15.826 --> 07:17.048 [SPEAKER_02]: So you're going to fill in the blanks. 07:17.669 --> 07:18.069 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. 07:18.290 --> 07:19.892 [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm going to read it at light a couple times. 07:20.873 --> 07:21.153 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. 07:21.294 --> 07:28.643 [SPEAKER_02]: So everybody who was listening along, if you're in the car or wherever you are, if you want to sit down, pause this and come back to it. 07:28.683 --> 07:31.487 [SPEAKER_02]: But we're going to do a stats question which will be very fun. 07:31.547 --> 07:32.368 [SPEAKER_02]: So here we go. 07:33.462 --> 07:42.240 [SPEAKER_02]: Just blank percentage of American adults account for blank percentage of all books read in the US. 07:42.743 --> 07:47.929 [SPEAKER_02]: So, what percentage of American adults account for what percentage of books read? 07:47.949 --> 07:48.690 [SPEAKER_01]: Is it going to depress me? 07:48.970 --> 07:49.871 [SPEAKER_01]: Is it going to depress me? 07:50.011 --> 07:50.732 [SPEAKER_01]: I can tell you that. 07:50.752 --> 07:51.373 [SPEAKER_01]: I can tell you that. 07:51.393 --> 07:53.755 [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no, no, no, there was a micro-election there. 07:53.776 --> 07:54.576 [SPEAKER_01]: There was a micro-election there. 07:54.596 --> 07:55.778 [SPEAKER_01]: There was a micro-election there. 07:55.798 --> 07:56.499 [SPEAKER_01]: It's going to depress me. 07:56.519 --> 07:57.600 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like the billionaire question. 07:57.640 --> 08:00.824 [SPEAKER_01]: Just that's percent of billionaires account for a percentage of, yeah. 08:00.844 --> 08:01.244 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. 08:01.264 --> 08:02.365 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, yeah, yeah. 08:02.385 --> 08:02.606 [SPEAKER_01]: Totally. 08:03.266 --> 08:03.507 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. 08:03.767 --> 08:05.128 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, it's going to depress me. 08:05.489 --> 08:07.791 [SPEAKER_01]: The question is how much is it going to depress me? 08:08.292 --> 08:08.552 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. 08:09.533 --> 08:12.717 [SPEAKER_01]: Is it like one percent? 08:13.034 --> 08:15.038 [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, don't tell me, um, okay. 08:15.438 --> 08:17.462 [SPEAKER_01]: I have been trying to step into optimism. 08:17.983 --> 08:18.363 [SPEAKER_01]: It's true. 08:18.504 --> 08:18.964 [SPEAKER_01]: I've been trying. 08:19.005 --> 08:19.686 [SPEAKER_01]: I love this for you. 08:19.726 --> 08:22.370 [SPEAKER_01]: More optimistic within within CC land. 08:22.711 --> 08:24.394 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, within CC universe. 08:24.514 --> 08:25.696 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I'm still going to be me. 08:25.756 --> 08:26.638 [SPEAKER_01]: That's just how it works. 08:26.698 --> 08:31.887 [SPEAKER_01]: But I've been trying to get in touch with the optimistic CC that must live inside me. 08:32.308 --> 08:32.969 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, she must. 08:33.370 --> 08:33.811 [SPEAKER_01]: She must. 08:33.971 --> 08:35.734 [SPEAKER_01]: She must. 08:35.714 --> 08:40.962 [SPEAKER_01]: So I will not say 1% because that's where my mind is on minus like it's probably something like 1% maybe even less. 08:41.143 --> 08:47.873 [SPEAKER_01]: I will say 5% account for And it's just adult or is it? 08:48.875 --> 08:50.798 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just if it's kids in the U.S. 08:50.958 --> 08:55.325 [SPEAKER_01]: Adults in the U.S. Yeah, okay, okay, so we're not talking about kids books because that's another thing to 50. 08:55.806 --> 08:56.147 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know. 08:57.228 --> 09:01.435 [SPEAKER_01]: I I wanted to say 90, but the optimist in me is going to say 50 like 5% for 50. 09:01.617 --> 09:02.818 [SPEAKER_02]: So your two numbers are what? 09:02.838 --> 09:05.040 [SPEAKER_02]: Your two numbers is what percent of American adults? 09:05.220 --> 09:09.444 [SPEAKER_01]: Five percent of American adults account for 50 percent of all books read in the US. 09:09.464 --> 09:14.228 [SPEAKER_01]: Again, the pessimistic me wants to say one and then 90, but I'm not. 09:14.248 --> 09:14.548 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not. 09:15.048 --> 09:20.373 [SPEAKER_02]: So I have good news and bad news for you, which is you're still on the negative side. 09:20.473 --> 09:22.915 [SPEAKER_02]: So it is 19 percent. 09:22.935 --> 09:29.140 [SPEAKER_02]: So one nine, 19 percent of American adults, account for 82 percent of all books read. 09:29.160 --> 09:31.422 [SPEAKER_02]: So that 82 is doing a lot of work there. 09:31.402 --> 09:38.531 [SPEAKER_02]: So 19% of American adults account for 80% and the source for this is U.gov American. 09:38.551 --> 09:40.433 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't remember what you're saying. 09:40.633 --> 09:41.394 [SPEAKER_01]: Interesting. 09:41.534 --> 09:43.016 [SPEAKER_01]: 20 account for 80, okay? 09:43.697 --> 09:49.164 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I think proportionally, I mean, I have to do the the the cross multiplication to find out, but I think proportionally, it's not. 09:49.604 --> 09:49.905 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know. 09:49.945 --> 09:50.505 [SPEAKER_01]: I'll figure it out. 09:50.525 --> 09:52.127 [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, this is me. 09:52.167 --> 09:55.211 [SPEAKER_01]: This is what you get for time being optimistic. 09:55.231 --> 09:56.112 [SPEAKER_01]: You tried so hard. 09:56.432 --> 09:56.693 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 09:57.013 --> 09:57.434 [SPEAKER_01]: I did. 09:57.894 --> 09:58.855 [SPEAKER_01]: I tried so hard. 09:59.316 --> 10:00.177 [SPEAKER_01]: So hard. 10:00.578 --> 10:01.439 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, you're adorable. 10:01.459 --> 10:04.183 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so a few things I want to talk about today. 10:04.204 --> 10:24.034 [SPEAKER_02]: We obviously always feature a subject of some kind, obviously other than my own, so we have a subject to talk about we have a judgment on a court case that you guys might have been following that's kind of very intense and then I really wanted to make sure we spent some time unpacking some of the comments that we got on last week's episode real. 10:24.575 --> 10:24.915 [SPEAKER_02]: So, 10:25.435 --> 10:35.531 [SPEAKER_02]: We're actually recording a day earlier than usual because our lives are very busy and it's March break and my kids are off so obviously not all of you have had time to listen to last week episode. 10:35.551 --> 10:44.305 [SPEAKER_02]: But right away on Instagram, we got so many comments, I mean I think we're in the hundreds plural comments, there's over 30,000 views on that real. 10:44.285 --> 10:50.416 [SPEAKER_02]: So this is the time to kind of make sure if you haven't listened to that episode, go back and listen to it or you know, pause it for later. 10:50.436 --> 10:52.440 [SPEAKER_02]: But do you want to give a summary? 10:52.460 --> 10:58.350 [SPEAKER_02]: You see of what the contentious issue was that everybody is up in arms about on Instagram. 10:58.450 --> 10:59.612 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah. 10:59.632 --> 11:04.261 [SPEAKER_01]: So Carly sent me a screenshot of an editor. 11:04.281 --> 11:06.765 [SPEAKER_01]: This is an anonymous person who posted on Reddit. 11:06.897 --> 11:13.045 [SPEAKER_01]: essentially discussing how like venting, venting about how he feels this, well, I don't don't know if it's a heat worship. 11:13.065 --> 11:13.365 [SPEAKER_01]: We don't know. 11:13.666 --> 11:18.432 [SPEAKER_01]: This person, this human, feels disillusioned with publishing. 11:18.933 --> 11:24.059 [SPEAKER_01]: And it is very vulnerable and it's hard to listen to. 11:24.079 --> 11:26.002 [SPEAKER_01]: It was really, really hard to listen to. 11:26.042 --> 11:29.226 [SPEAKER_01]: As you were reading it, Carly, I remember being like, 11:31.231 --> 11:34.475 [SPEAKER_01]: Part of me wanted to hug him, part of me wanted to ask questions. 11:34.956 --> 11:38.521 [SPEAKER_01]: I keep saying him, like, I don't even think what statistically speaking is probably a woman. 11:38.721 --> 11:39.783 [SPEAKER_01]: There's more women in publishing. 11:39.983 --> 11:45.270 [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, it was a difficult, difficult event to read about, you know, how publishing is broken, essentially. 11:45.350 --> 11:56.485 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, if you had to summarize it in a word, broken, that's what it sounded like, you know, broken system, broken person, saying that, you know, they should've gone into law, or medicine, hard to disagree on the law. 11:56.706 --> 11:57.627 [SPEAKER_01]: I wonder why? 11:57.708 --> 12:10.009 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, how you can always tell, I think someone's mood has so much to do with how much of the future are you looking to and how much of the past are you looking to and how much of the present are you looking to? 12:10.369 --> 12:17.421 [SPEAKER_01]: And this person seems to be very, very disillusioned about the future and very, very sad about the past, which may make me very sad to hear. 12:17.873 --> 12:29.419 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and so, you know, a snippet of the episode that we recorded was shared on Instagram from our lovely social team, and so, and obviously on its, you know, the YouTube comments. 12:29.467 --> 12:30.488 [SPEAKER_02]: very active as well. 12:30.508 --> 12:37.135 [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm just pulling everything up so we kind of chat about it a little bit because there was a huge kind of mix of feedback. 12:37.195 --> 12:45.183 [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of writers were very kind of just like upset by a dissolution by it and feeling like, you know, wow, that shocked me. 12:45.203 --> 12:47.505 [SPEAKER_02]: And then there was a bunch of people that were like, that didn't surprise me. 12:47.525 --> 12:52.771 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, maybe if you really plugged into the publishing world, that shouldn't be surprising to you or you know, wouldn't be surprising to you. 12:52.791 --> 12:58.917 [SPEAKER_02]: There was also some editors that chimed in and said, 12:58.897 --> 13:01.243 [SPEAKER_02]: there's a lot of reason why this is probably true. 13:01.323 --> 13:12.753 [SPEAKER_02]: Some people said, you know, obviously this is this is Reddit and we really have to take with the grain of salt, which I completely agree and I preface, you know, my recording of that saying that. 13:12.773 --> 13:12.873 [SPEAKER_02]: Sure. 13:12.893 --> 13:15.420 [SPEAKER_02]: So one of the comments that got 23 13:15.400 --> 13:19.144 [SPEAKER_02]: you know, likes was from a former editor, a former big five editor. 13:19.304 --> 13:21.106 [SPEAKER_02]: So, I'm in a reader too, guys. 13:21.246 --> 13:28.994 [SPEAKER_02]: I was an editor for a decade, worked at three major imprints across two big fives, hearing this reminds me of one of the multiple reasons I left trad publishing. 13:29.535 --> 13:38.124 [SPEAKER_02]: I looked up at the editors I admired, but better titles and salaries than I did who I imagined, commanded more respected autonomy, and they were still toiling, burnt out, and often bitter. 13:38.164 --> 13:39.585 [SPEAKER_02]: The goalpost was always moving. 13:39.565 --> 13:45.820 [SPEAKER_02]: And when I asked myself how much money it would take to keep me going and that's log, it was an out that was completely laughable and unrealistic for the industry. 13:46.040 --> 13:55.482 [SPEAKER_02]: Going to publishing parties made me depressed because I became hyperware of how much the industry is fueled by a cloak perception, and striving for a romanticized version of the House of Condes that may be never existed. 13:55.462 --> 13:57.244 [SPEAKER_02]: and are certainly long-going if they did. 13:57.444 --> 14:02.109 [SPEAKER_02]: So much, much older editors seem to really have made it, but when they retire, the door was behind them. 14:02.470 --> 14:07.715 [SPEAKER_02]: That promise of prestige and meaning with an office and the kind of money that you need to buy a place in New York and operate it. 14:07.735 --> 14:16.785 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't necessarily have the same specific gripes as this commenter, but rather the fact of everyone, even your idols, being secretly miserable and disillusioned really resonates. 14:16.805 --> 14:23.933 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's a huge underpinning of the theme here, which is everybody can have different grievances, of course. 14:24.318 --> 14:25.981 [SPEAKER_02]: people do feel really burnt out. 14:26.101 --> 14:30.229 [SPEAKER_02]: And I remember in COVID, the AALA put together or who's planning on. 14:30.249 --> 14:30.950 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if they ever did. 14:30.970 --> 14:33.976 [SPEAKER_02]: They're planning on putting out a burnt, putting together like a burnout subcommittee. 14:34.296 --> 14:42.211 [SPEAKER_02]: I was like, I don't even know if the subcommittee even got off the ground because who had the time to put together a committee about burnout when we're all spread a little bit then. 14:42.351 --> 14:44.976 [SPEAKER_02]: So I don't know, CC was there any comments that stood out to you. 14:45.496 --> 15:02.509 [SPEAKER_01]: to you think that so in in the comment you just read I'm I'm going to butt you're like a son front of me but do you think that everyone is secretly disillusioned I don't mean everyone literally right but like do you think that people are because I'm asking because I don't I 15:02.489 --> 15:27.703 [SPEAKER_01]: either people are very good at lying to me or I actually meet with a lot of people who I think have that fire inside them and love this industry so much and they see the bad it's not that they romanticizing it they're not idealizing it but they see the bad they see the problematic they see all the issues that come with it but they still they still have that drive and that passion and that story forwardness that I feel personally I don't consider myself a 15:27.683 --> 15:33.310 [SPEAKER_01]: I see so many of its problems, and I think that's so much of it needs to change, and there's so many systemic issues. 15:34.031 --> 15:43.663 [SPEAKER_01]: But the good still outweighs the bad for me, and please, if the lovely editors hearing this, I do not mean to invalidate you in any way, because like feelings, right? 15:43.703 --> 15:44.804 [SPEAKER_01]: Like we're all sharing feelings. 15:44.985 --> 15:46.687 [SPEAKER_01]: But I don't know, the comment you just read. 15:46.847 --> 15:49.611 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think that everyone has secretly disillusioned. 15:49.831 --> 15:51.793 [SPEAKER_01]: Or if they are, they are very good at hiding it. 15:53.195 --> 15:53.295 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 15:53.315 --> 15:55.598 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, if I had to give a number, 15:55.763 --> 16:03.115 [SPEAKER_02]: just illusion is such an interesting word because I think five to ten years in your eyes are wide open. 16:03.275 --> 16:07.241 [SPEAKER_02]: Like you've seen, you should have seen it all in terms of the good in the bad. 16:07.602 --> 16:14.292 [SPEAKER_02]: So when you're in those early stages of your career, you might obviously everybody's a bit more like bright item, but she tailed, which makes perfect sets. 16:15.454 --> 16:19.881 [SPEAKER_02]: Between years five and ten, your eyes should be wide open and that's often when people leave. 16:20.452 --> 16:26.039 [SPEAKER_02]: because they figured out it's not what they thought it was or the goal of being an editor actually is a very much editing at all. 16:26.099 --> 16:27.261 [SPEAKER_02]: It's a lot of project management. 16:27.661 --> 16:30.265 [SPEAKER_02]: So that's kind of the piece where people will leave. 16:30.405 --> 16:38.495 [SPEAKER_02]: Once people have made it past that 15, obviously, 20 year mark, like you're kind of staying, like you built your entire foundation of your career doing this job. 16:38.876 --> 16:40.718 [SPEAKER_02]: I think what is really, really hard. 16:40.738 --> 16:44.163 [SPEAKER_02]: And now we've been really focused on editors here in the editorial role. 16:44.183 --> 16:46.105 [SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot of other jobs in publishing. 16:46.085 --> 16:49.710 [SPEAKER_02]: There's the marketing, publicity, design, production. 16:50.250 --> 16:57.760 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think one of the things that's really hard that I witness is that there can be people that are really good at those other jobs. 16:57.860 --> 17:03.467 [SPEAKER_02]: And if they go to another industry, they could be paid 20% to 100% more. 17:03.707 --> 17:07.191 [SPEAKER_02]: You know what I mean in another industry doing that exact same job. 17:07.592 --> 17:15.822 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's what's hard to keep really good people in those other jobs. 17:15.802 --> 17:18.506 [SPEAKER_02]: do that in another industry because this is the book editing world. 17:18.967 --> 17:19.748 [SPEAKER_02]: This is the book world. 17:19.828 --> 17:24.435 [SPEAKER_02]: But you can do design project management rights management. 17:24.455 --> 17:26.618 [SPEAKER_02]: Like you can do a lot of other things in other industries. 17:26.718 --> 17:37.635 [SPEAKER_02]: And I get really sad what I think about how many people we lose and the other departments who are really quick on their feet, just because I know that other finance and other industries take a more. 17:38.576 --> 17:43.243 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I also wonder how much of this has to do with like we all know that publishing 17:44.371 --> 17:46.113 [SPEAKER_01]: moves at a very slow pace. 17:46.613 --> 17:51.158 [SPEAKER_01]: So by the time, you know, what comes out so many years have gone by from the first time you acquired it. 17:52.220 --> 17:58.887 [SPEAKER_01]: And we also know that publishing operates on a venture capital model, where only a few books actually make it. 17:59.587 --> 18:09.298 [SPEAKER_01]: A ton of books are published, and publishers expect only a small percentage of those books to actually break out and actually become the cash cows that will pay for everything else. 18:09.683 --> 18:18.879 [SPEAKER_01]: Because of these two realities, the economic model and the timeline, it means that you have to wait a long time before you see results. 18:19.059 --> 18:27.253 [SPEAKER_01]: Good or bad, before you know whether you've made it, and I'm not saying that's a good way to think about it, the making it, but a lot of people do it, but it's emotions. 18:28.295 --> 18:29.717 [SPEAKER_01]: And so because of that, 18:30.355 --> 18:36.908 [SPEAKER_01]: You invest a lot of time in your career to then find out if you chose one of the books that are going to make it or not. 18:37.489 --> 18:42.338 [SPEAKER_01]: And if you happen to have chosen these books and to a degree it is a lottery system, then you feel validation. 18:43.340 --> 18:46.266 [SPEAKER_01]: And that might give you an appeal to keep going. 18:46.847 --> 18:52.077 [SPEAKER_01]: Like it or not, human beings need validation and a huge part of being in this industry. 18:52.310 --> 18:55.635 [SPEAKER_01]: as writer, as an agent, as an editor, as a publicist, doesn't matter. 18:56.076 --> 18:58.079 [SPEAKER_01]: It's finding ways to get that fuel. 18:58.520 --> 19:00.964 [SPEAKER_01]: And you can't look for that fuel in the wrong places. 19:01.144 --> 19:09.978 [SPEAKER_01]: And I just wonder, you know, these editors, like at the end of the day, it's really hard because you have to wait so long to find out if you're on the right track or not. 19:09.998 --> 19:13.103 [SPEAKER_01]: And when you do, you've invested years into your career. 19:13.201 --> 19:15.263 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's not different for agents at all. 19:15.843 --> 19:22.169 [SPEAKER_01]: The different part about agents is that you get to pivot so much more quickly in terms of like, I want to rep this journal now. 19:22.289 --> 19:23.050 [SPEAKER_01]: I want to do this. 19:23.230 --> 19:26.894 [SPEAKER_01]: I want to, like, there's just so much more flexibility because our jobs are entrepreneurial. 19:27.094 --> 19:28.695 [SPEAKER_01]: Our jobs are also way more high-risk. 19:28.715 --> 19:29.956 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we're not getting steady pay. 19:29.976 --> 19:30.937 [SPEAKER_01]: We're not getting salaries. 19:30.997 --> 19:38.985 [SPEAKER_01]: Most agents only make a commission, which means that for the first couple of years of their agenting, they're often making zero dollars because it takes a while for you to sell your first book. 19:39.165 --> 19:39.906 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I don't know. 19:40.046 --> 19:42.448 [SPEAKER_01]: I wonder how much of this has to do with this, 19:44.555 --> 19:47.338 [SPEAKER_01]: this part of this industry, this piece of the industry. 19:47.358 --> 19:51.424 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think a lot too depends on how bright IG or when you joined. 19:52.265 --> 19:55.108 [SPEAKER_01]: I remember this clear, I remember this so well. 19:55.208 --> 19:57.191 [SPEAKER_01]: I went back to school for publishing. 19:57.451 --> 20:01.776 [SPEAKER_01]: I was the only person in my mid-30s among a whole bunch of 20-year-olds. 20:02.057 --> 20:02.998 [SPEAKER_01]: I shouldn't say the only person. 20:03.018 --> 20:06.122 [SPEAKER_01]: They were like two other people who were actually older than me, who were lovely. 20:06.502 --> 20:07.684 [SPEAKER_01]: But everyone in class was like 22. 20:09.125 --> 20:10.427 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe 25, five. 20:10.407 --> 20:20.459 [SPEAKER_01]: And I remember at the end of the program, someone a very small person, very small person, raising her hand and being like, I'm just really surprised by the salaries. 20:21.040 --> 20:23.223 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, like, I didn't expect the salaries to be X, Y, Z. 20:23.583 --> 20:32.054 [SPEAKER_01]: And I remember asking her, I hope with all the love in the world, before you went into debt and signed up for this course, did you not look up the salaries? 20:32.114 --> 20:38.642 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm saying this with love, like, before you join an industry or even like pursue education to potentially join an industry, 20:38.622 --> 20:39.623 [SPEAKER_01]: You should look at the same thing. 20:39.683 --> 20:40.484 [SPEAKER_01]: What was the answer, ladies? 20:40.504 --> 20:41.145 [SPEAKER_01]: Look at us? 20:41.585 --> 20:42.947 [SPEAKER_01]: No, they didn't. 20:42.967 --> 20:43.307 [SPEAKER_01]: We didn't. 20:43.567 --> 20:45.389 [SPEAKER_01]: But most people in class had not. 20:45.950 --> 20:46.911 [SPEAKER_01]: She was really... 20:46.931 --> 20:48.052 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think most of them did. 20:48.252 --> 20:49.394 [SPEAKER_01]: Most people had not. 20:50.074 --> 20:50.295 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. 20:50.315 --> 20:51.096 [SPEAKER_01]: Most people had not. 20:52.157 --> 20:53.979 [SPEAKER_02]: I did a publishing post grab program. 20:54.299 --> 20:55.600 [SPEAKER_02]: So I did a master's in publishing. 20:55.861 --> 20:56.802 [SPEAKER_02]: And I didn't need you. 20:56.822 --> 20:56.922 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. 20:57.262 --> 21:00.205 [SPEAKER_02]: And so I sent off my application whenever that wouldn't have been. 21:00.245 --> 21:02.588 [SPEAKER_02]: Write the winter of my fourth year of university. 21:02.939 --> 21:12.578 [SPEAKER_02]: And I remember hearing back from the program coordinator and she's like, she wanted to set a call and I was like, oh my gosh, you're getting a call like I just hope this is the next steps to get accepted into this program. 21:13.013 --> 21:15.996 [SPEAKER_02]: I remember vividly on the phone. 21:16.016 --> 21:35.654 [SPEAKER_02]: She explained she's like your international student this course will cost tens of thousands of dollars I remember how much it was sadly at this point of so many years ago, and so old at this point But she's like it will cost this much for an international student and this is what the starting salary looks like and publishing and she walked Like and I'm assuming all the other international students. 21:35.674 --> 21:41.299 [SPEAKER_02]: She called and she walked us all through it and I give her so much credit for that because like there's a moral response 21:41.279 --> 21:48.114 [SPEAKER_02]: That's a more responsibility for those program coordinators to accept students, make promises per se. 21:48.174 --> 21:52.403 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, nobody's saying they're going to get you job at the goal as to get us a job at the goal point. 21:52.424 --> 21:53.566 [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I give her a lot of credit for that. 21:53.586 --> 21:59.018 [SPEAKER_02]: I remember at the time just being like, I just, I then, you know, I'm not type of person, where I'm like, oh, I'm going to be the exception. 21:59.150 --> 22:04.242 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't care like you can tell me whatever you're going to tell me like I just know in my heart of hearts, I will be the exception and that's fine. 22:04.883 --> 22:07.589 [SPEAKER_02]: The audacity of me at 21 and and however. 22:07.730 --> 22:08.672 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 22:08.712 --> 22:12.080 [SPEAKER_01]: You can make it like God you had audacity if you didn't you wouldn't be here. 22:12.340 --> 22:12.621 [SPEAKER_01]: You know. 22:12.861 --> 22:13.162 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 22:13.182 --> 22:15.808 [SPEAKER_01]: So I love that she did that and I. 22:15.788 --> 22:22.436 [SPEAKER_01]: hundred percent agree with you that there's a moral responsibility to do that at the same time I also think that this is about locus of control. 22:22.676 --> 22:27.221 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that the people who make it in any industry have a locus of control where they turn inward for answers. 22:27.601 --> 22:28.943 [SPEAKER_01]: You can Google Salars. 22:29.103 --> 22:31.966 [SPEAKER_01]: I love that she said that to you and a hundred percent should. 22:32.467 --> 22:38.814 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not saying she shouldn't and other program coordinator shouldn't but we do live in a world where information is quite accessible. 22:39.034 --> 22:44.901 [SPEAKER_01]: Like if you are a publishing professional any professional you should be looking up Salaries, the stats 22:44.881 --> 22:52.435 [SPEAKER_02]: How many jobs do you think last door existed when I was like this is this way. 22:52.716 --> 22:57.845 [SPEAKER_01]: I went to school for my post-grad program it 100% existed. 22:57.905 --> 23:00.590 [SPEAKER_01]: I know it did because it did exist when I was a lawyer and that was before. 23:01.011 --> 23:07.463 [SPEAKER_01]: Like you can you can find that and I know it was harder in 2008, but you could still like it's still there was still the interest. 23:07.443 --> 23:18.820 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, you know, I just think that when you when you apply for something. 23:19.103 --> 23:22.427 [SPEAKER_01]: It's important to do your own research and not show up. 23:22.447 --> 23:24.349 [SPEAKER_01]: But you're not showing up as a blank canvas. 23:24.369 --> 23:26.051 [SPEAKER_01]: You're not showing up, be like, now teach me. 23:26.232 --> 23:41.730 [SPEAKER_01]: You need to have done the work so that you, you come profissifitially prepared to ask smart questions and to know whether you have, if you have the conditions to even make it, again, I am not trying to say it's on people to do all the research and education should not be available. 23:41.750 --> 23:45.094 [SPEAKER_01]: Of course not, but part of it is doing your own research. 23:45.074 --> 23:47.518 [SPEAKER_01]: We see this when people reach out to us, right? 23:47.538 --> 23:49.221 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, we've talked about some of our questions too. 23:49.261 --> 23:54.009 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, sometimes you will reach out to us and they're like, what is the difference between genre A and genre B? 23:54.029 --> 23:55.852 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, huh, you can Google this. 23:55.912 --> 23:56.693 [SPEAKER_01]: You can Google this. 23:56.753 --> 23:58.216 [SPEAKER_01]: You can, you can do your own research. 23:58.496 --> 24:04.366 [SPEAKER_01]: Ask me a question that you've put more thought into, you know, because there are questions that you should be, should be able to ask publishing professionals. 24:04.406 --> 24:06.109 [SPEAKER_01]: But, but not something so basic. 24:06.129 --> 24:10.356 [SPEAKER_01]: So, this is all my way of saying, because we're talking about the, the venting session. 24:12.783 --> 24:14.506 [SPEAKER_01]: how much of the disillusionment. 24:14.887 --> 24:17.031 [SPEAKER_01]: However, however many people, it does affect. 24:17.351 --> 24:21.939 [SPEAKER_01]: How much of it is coming from unrealistic expectations that you walked into, because see what you will about me. 24:22.240 --> 24:24.464 [SPEAKER_01]: I have very dust around me. 24:24.504 --> 24:26.748 [SPEAKER_01]: I have rose colored glasses for a whole bunch of things. 24:26.928 --> 24:27.349 [SPEAKER_01]: True. 24:27.667 --> 24:29.150 [SPEAKER_01]: I am a deeply cynical person. 24:29.370 --> 24:33.439 [SPEAKER_01]: I walked into publishing, knowing exactly what it was, exactly how hard it was. 24:34.000 --> 24:38.369 [SPEAKER_01]: I actually, if anything thought it was even harder, because I am not an optimist. 24:38.389 --> 24:38.710 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not. 24:38.850 --> 24:42.678 [SPEAKER_01]: I am someone who I look at life and I think how can this go wrong? 24:42.838 --> 24:44.241 [SPEAKER_01]: It used to make me a great lawyer. 24:44.491 --> 24:46.055 [SPEAKER_01]: How could this go wrong is what lawyers do? 24:46.095 --> 24:54.275 [SPEAKER_01]: We figure out all the ways things go wrong and then we try to prevent it and try to mitigate it and try to write a contract to protect people like, and I knew about this. 24:54.555 --> 24:55.297 [SPEAKER_01]: And I knew about it. 24:55.337 --> 24:58.244 [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, the texture of it, I didn't know until I joined. 24:58.665 --> 25:01.993 [SPEAKER_01]: Write the specific texture, the specific nuances for sure. 25:01.973 --> 25:07.419 [SPEAKER_01]: but I knew how hard it was going to be and I had no illusions, no illusions that it wouldn't. 25:07.699 --> 25:15.528 [SPEAKER_01]: And one of the reasons why I never even tried to get it at jobs in acquiring editor, which probably I wouldn't have gotten anyway, like maybe we're not hiring people in their mid 30s, let's just be honest. 25:16.089 --> 25:17.570 [SPEAKER_01]: But with no context. 25:17.931 --> 25:24.758 [SPEAKER_01]: But one of the reasons why I didn't even try is because I didn't want the constraints of big corporation behind me. 25:24.738 --> 25:25.681 [SPEAKER_01]: But I didn't want that. 25:25.841 --> 25:26.484 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, no, no, no, no. 25:26.524 --> 25:34.569 [SPEAKER_01]: If I'm going to do this, if I'm going to start over in a career that's all about how much I love books, I want to have freedom and being an agent, you get that freedom. 25:34.589 --> 25:36.435 [SPEAKER_01]: You also get a ton of risk, but 25:36.770 --> 25:39.254 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's a story for another day. 25:39.714 --> 25:42.759 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's a story for another day. 25:42.839 --> 25:45.102 [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I love how engaged you guys were. 25:45.283 --> 25:56.279 [SPEAKER_02]: And the Instagram real, you know, I think we probably made a lot of people disillusioned in the comments, but I also got, I think that real, obviously made its way around the internet and various capacities. 25:56.439 --> 25:57.681 [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I am. 25:57.897 --> 26:00.602 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I guess I was just surprised at how many people were shocked by it. 26:00.682 --> 26:06.252 [SPEAKER_02]: In some ways, maybe we don't do enough with a show to like say how hard this job like this career is. 26:06.412 --> 26:09.778 [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, we should be for part of our hard it is no, no, no. 26:09.798 --> 26:11.080 [SPEAKER_01]: I talk about how hard it is all the time. 26:11.160 --> 26:14.326 [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, we've got lots of people reaching out to us to say, we get it. 26:14.426 --> 26:14.927 [SPEAKER_01]: It's hard. 26:15.548 --> 26:16.750 [SPEAKER_01]: Stop saying it. 26:16.730 --> 26:23.920 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, we do a great job, I'm sorry, but I'm going to get ourselves in the back now of telling you, okay, literally the name of the show, right? 26:23.940 --> 26:25.823 [SPEAKER_01]: Like the shit no one tells you about everything. 26:25.883 --> 26:28.667 [SPEAKER_01]: So, like, no, we do enough. 26:28.967 --> 26:41.144 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's more that the way this person, that editor, who we don't know with who they are, the way they framed it, just I think I think it's about making, we're using the right words for things, you know? 26:41.264 --> 26:42.566 [SPEAKER_01]: Like it's the way they wrote it. 26:43.848 --> 26:46.652 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, yeah, 26:47.189 --> 26:47.590 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 26:47.610 --> 26:48.091 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, wow. 26:49.073 --> 26:56.510 [SPEAKER_02]: There was a comment also that I really liked, so I'm going to read this person's full comment and then I'm going to read my response to it because I think they kind of nailed it here. 26:56.530 --> 26:58.213 [SPEAKER_02]: So this is not about burnout. 26:58.754 --> 27:04.928 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean sure, but listening, listening burnout for suggest the editor is tired from the work and not tired of the work. 27:05.482 --> 27:15.041 [SPEAKER_02]: This is about the sacrifice artists have to make in order to get their work published number of writers who have told me an interviews that they were asked, they were told, they were required to make changes to a made ascript to make more sellable. 27:15.461 --> 27:18.367 [SPEAKER_02]: And many were told by literary agents and editors. 27:18.447 --> 27:26.663 [SPEAKER_02]: The capitalist structure cannot be influenced for the better if writer advocates are carving out giant spaces for books that will sell and not making room for books that will change the world. 27:26.643 --> 27:37.994 [SPEAKER_02]: a renaissance cannot happen when people of power maintain old structures that limit or edit artistic expression to suit a system that is willfully unapologetically embracing replications of art simply because they will make them more money. 27:38.375 --> 27:43.420 [SPEAKER_02]: And I said great distinction between tired from the work versus tired of the work. 27:43.540 --> 27:45.162 [SPEAKER_02]: That's a huge distinction. 27:45.202 --> 27:47.504 [SPEAKER_02]: And that got 60 likes on that comment. 27:47.524 --> 27:48.945 [SPEAKER_02]: So I think a lot of you guys agree with that. 27:49.046 --> 27:49.886 [SPEAKER_01]: That was very smart. 27:50.227 --> 27:56.413 [SPEAKER_01]: I agree. 27:57.052 --> 28:00.799 [SPEAKER_01]: It just hits a lot, I want to follow this now. 28:00.880 --> 28:02.082 [SPEAKER_01]: I had not been following it. 28:02.302 --> 28:04.687 [SPEAKER_01]: It's only been like what 24 hours and it was posted. 28:04.727 --> 28:06.170 [SPEAKER_01]: And I had big, big hours. 28:06.771 --> 28:09.557 [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm going to mess with this so I can see it. 28:10.018 --> 28:10.719 [SPEAKER_01]: OK, yes. 28:10.739 --> 28:10.920 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. 28:11.541 --> 28:11.761 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 28:11.781 --> 28:15.128 [SPEAKER_02]: So anyway, we really appreciate everybody's thoughts and comments. 28:15.108 --> 28:26.505 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm also over on YouTube where Lauren says, I wish you spent more discussing the topics from London Book Fair, SNS, Changes, you know that we discussed and she's like, a little bit fatigued of our Reddit ramp. 28:26.525 --> 28:32.814 [SPEAKER_02]: So to that, Lauren, I will say, I prepared us a subsdech about myths from London Book Fair. 28:32.854 --> 28:35.678 [SPEAKER_02]: So I do want to get back to some core publishing stuff. 28:36.018 --> 28:42.027 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I guess the balance that I always try to strike with this show is that I've been talking about this industry for 28:42.007 --> 28:43.973 [SPEAKER_02]: Nearly 20 years on the internet. 28:43.993 --> 28:45.216 [SPEAKER_02]: So I fatigue of something. 28:45.236 --> 28:47.924 [SPEAKER_02]: So sometimes when I'm like, oh, there's a fun Reddit thread or fun subject. 28:47.944 --> 28:56.750 [SPEAKER_02]: We can talk about we get into some things I haven't talked about in a while I do understand that sometimes you guys just want a little bit of bread of butter of the industry, which I obviously can respect as well. 28:56.870 --> 28:57.231 [SPEAKER_02]: So 28:57.498 --> 28:57.858 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 28:57.879 --> 29:08.313 [SPEAKER_02]: I grabbed us a myth behind the one of book fair from Phoebe Morgan who is an editor and her substack is called the honest editor and we have quoted this substack before because it is great. 29:08.393 --> 29:15.182 [SPEAKER_02]: And so Phoebe posted just a couple days ago, it must have been just after the fair, a great post about some myths just dispelled. 29:15.322 --> 29:15.603 [SPEAKER_02]: So C.C. 29:15.623 --> 29:17.185 [SPEAKER_02]: Do you want to go back and forth with these myths? 29:17.245 --> 29:18.226 [SPEAKER_02]: We can read about it. 29:18.246 --> 29:18.627 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm doing it. 29:18.647 --> 29:18.747 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. 29:18.867 --> 29:20.549 [SPEAKER_01]: So I really like this list. 29:20.649 --> 29:26.998 [SPEAKER_01]: Miss myth number one, deals are done in the whirlwind at the book fair itself and announced immediately. 29:27.991 --> 29:30.958 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, people always think that about the immediate announcements, right? 29:30.998 --> 29:36.791 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, and remember, guys, please remember, like, reading a book takes time and people need to read a book before making an offer. 29:37.151 --> 29:44.448 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's not a situation where someone walks to someone's desk is like, I have the next blah blah blah and someone's like, I will give you a million dollars for it. 29:44.588 --> 29:45.350 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's announce. 29:45.650 --> 29:46.793 [SPEAKER_01]: It's so slow. 29:46.773 --> 29:58.297 [SPEAKER_01]: So slow, you know, people time the announcement to get maximum buzz around around the publications, you know, whether it's the bookseller or publishers marketplace or whatever else it is like we want the trades to capture deals. 29:58.397 --> 29:59.179 [SPEAKER_01]: So 29:59.885 --> 30:03.168 [SPEAKER_01]: For sure, no, for sure, this is like strategic timing. 30:03.368 --> 30:13.657 [SPEAKER_01]: When to announce something is a very strategic publishing decision, and it's something that you should absolutely talk to your agent about, and something that you should do to maximize buzz. 30:14.758 --> 30:19.323 [SPEAKER_01]: So many writers are like, I really want to announce right now, because I want to have like good publishing news. 30:19.383 --> 30:20.063 [SPEAKER_01]: And I get that. 30:20.484 --> 30:26.769 [SPEAKER_01]: At the same time, it's so important to do it when the time is right, and when you can get most attention for that announcement. 30:26.809 --> 30:29.892 [SPEAKER_01]: And you can never know for sure. 30:29.872 --> 30:31.034 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, absolutely. 30:31.054 --> 30:32.838 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think this as a PR tool. 30:32.898 --> 30:35.584 [SPEAKER_02]: Not as just a like, where is going to put this out of the internet? 30:35.604 --> 30:39.091 [SPEAKER_02]: Because it's happening again incredibly incredibly strategic. 30:39.131 --> 30:42.478 [SPEAKER_02]: So for example, that like the talk about strategy regarding the fair. 30:42.498 --> 30:45.083 [SPEAKER_02]: I think CC mentioned it, but just to kind of drill down on this right. 30:45.143 --> 30:48.049 [SPEAKER_02]: So a deal would have been done in 2025. 30:48.029 --> 30:50.912 [SPEAKER_02]: for the primary book rights to the U.S. publisher. 30:50.972 --> 30:57.299 [SPEAKER_02]: Then they might be putting together the contract notion, the contract doing all of that. 30:57.379 --> 30:58.840 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's why it's not really announced. 30:58.960 --> 31:00.462 [SPEAKER_02]: Usually, the contract's are done. 31:01.102 --> 31:04.526 [SPEAKER_02]: Publishers, the marketplace also gets really stingy about when you announce deals. 31:04.586 --> 31:12.334 [SPEAKER_02]: If they think that you're taking too long to announce it, they can also refuse to post your deal, because you didn't announce it close enough to when the deal actually happened. 31:12.354 --> 31:13.695 [SPEAKER_02]: They are actually very particular about that. 31:13.796 --> 31:14.256 [SPEAKER_02]: But 31:14.236 --> 31:19.224 [SPEAKER_02]: Let's say you do the deal, then it's the contract, and then the book fair is coming up. 31:19.244 --> 31:27.158 [SPEAKER_02]: So you will notice there was a lot of six figure book club books announced probably about two weeks before the fair. 31:27.659 --> 31:28.961 [SPEAKER_02]: And this is all done on purpose. 31:29.081 --> 31:40.480 [SPEAKER_02]: There is also blasts that go out in publishers weekly in the bookseller, all the trades because everybody's like making their list, making their meeting lists, seeing what people are talking about, so they know what to prep for for the meetings that are going to happen. 31:40.460 --> 31:48.951 [SPEAKER_02]: And then whoever has the sub rights, the translation rights to those buzzy books that were announced in a couple weeks before the fair, that's the star of their catalog. 31:49.212 --> 31:51.014 [SPEAKER_02]: So they've already printed the catalogs, right? 31:51.034 --> 31:52.075 [SPEAKER_02]: They're ready to go to the fair. 31:52.115 --> 31:57.723 [SPEAKER_02]: They're doing the meetings and I guess a lot of the digital catalogs these days, not as many physical catalogs, but you know what I mean? 31:57.743 --> 31:58.964 [SPEAKER_02]: So the catalogs were done. 31:59.385 --> 32:02.429 [SPEAKER_02]: And then they're pitching the thing that looks like it was just announced. 32:02.549 --> 32:05.653 [SPEAKER_02]: And relative terms it was a recent deal. 32:05.693 --> 32:09.218 [SPEAKER_02]: The book has it come out because they're trying to bring on translation partners. 32:09.417 --> 32:12.800 [SPEAKER_02]: so that they can kind of sell more translation rights. 32:12.840 --> 32:16.343 [SPEAKER_02]: And sometimes you'll see some of those deals where announced with a bunch of translation rights. 32:17.264 --> 32:18.285 [SPEAKER_02]: So they just want more, right? 32:18.305 --> 32:19.866 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, let's get this snowball moving. 32:19.906 --> 32:23.390 [SPEAKER_02]: Nobody wants to have that foam of not being on the train of a hot book. 32:23.930 --> 32:26.933 [SPEAKER_02]: So those are some examples of that specific time. 32:27.994 --> 32:29.075 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I like that. 32:29.315 --> 32:31.337 [SPEAKER_01]: OK, do you want to read us the myth number two? 32:32.017 --> 32:32.678 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, first. 32:32.698 --> 32:33.879 [SPEAKER_01]: You're more again with this list. 32:33.899 --> 32:34.620 [SPEAKER_01]: I really liked it. 32:35.561 --> 32:38.243 [SPEAKER_02]: All right, first we're going to hear from our sponsors 32:42.931 --> 32:49.466 [SPEAKER_02]: All right, so the next one, every book that is announced at LBF goes on to sell really well and takes the world by storm. 32:49.526 --> 32:54.637 [SPEAKER_02]: So, no, obviously, like that's not the case with any book or, you know, we just never know. 32:55.038 --> 32:59.488 [SPEAKER_02]: She said, sometimes publishers overpay for books in the book student-up, perform, and that happens all the time. 32:59.468 --> 33:06.756 [SPEAKER_02]: often we profile authors around the fair because they're more newsworthy and the book sellers more likely to run them, right? 33:06.996 --> 33:14.864 [SPEAKER_02]: The books that are also run, I want to say they do four issues that week over the fair because I think well maybe even five because they do the regular issue. 33:14.925 --> 33:17.788 [SPEAKER_02]: They do a pre-fair day and then there's three days of the fair. 33:17.908 --> 33:18.889 [SPEAKER_02]: So there's a lot of content. 33:18.909 --> 33:24.395 [SPEAKER_02]: The book seller has to fill in the newspaper to make it look like a lot's happening. 33:24.715 --> 33:26.317 [SPEAKER_02]: So that's a really good one too. 33:26.537 --> 33:27.518 [SPEAKER_02]: See you next time. 33:27.802 --> 33:32.210 [SPEAKER_01]: If your book isn't being sold at the London Book Fair, you're not important to the industry. 33:32.250 --> 33:33.673 [SPEAKER_01]: That is definitely not true. 33:33.693 --> 33:47.199 [SPEAKER_01]: And there's so many huge breakout books, buzzy books, books that went out to become like category killers that were not sold at during the London Book Fair that have absolutely no ties to the London Book Fair, did not get any buzz and it's just not true. 33:47.359 --> 33:49.303 [SPEAKER_01]: So if anyone's feeling that way, please don't. 33:49.874 --> 34:00.070 [SPEAKER_02]: Number four, all the books announced at LBF are sold for lots of money, and just as, of course, no, you know, some deals are just for average amounts of advanced money, not everything's a six-figure deal of which is a great reminder. 34:01.272 --> 34:02.814 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, okay, so I love five. 34:03.054 --> 34:03.595 [SPEAKER_01]: This is a myth. 34:03.655 --> 34:04.176 [SPEAKER_01]: We're busting. 34:04.577 --> 34:08.743 [SPEAKER_01]: You have to have a platform or be a celebrity to be a successful writer and now. 34:09.601 --> 34:11.586 [SPEAKER_01]: Like this, okay, I love what she wrote. 34:11.606 --> 34:17.983 [SPEAKER_01]: She's like the vast majority of books on the fiction list are from regular people, like regular quotes. 34:18.685 --> 34:19.828 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not how it works. 34:20.049 --> 34:21.994 [SPEAKER_01]: It's about writing a fantastic story. 34:22.214 --> 34:24.420 [SPEAKER_01]: Please focus on writing a fantastic story. 34:24.721 --> 34:30.696 [SPEAKER_02]: Alright, the next one is number six, only the top editors or agents have books announced at LBF. 34:31.077 --> 34:40.400 [SPEAKER_02]: She says, no, there's so many amazing hardworking editors and agents at varying stage of their careers looking for really books all year round to might not have thought she deals announced but who are creating bestsellers all the time. 34:40.440 --> 34:41.683 [SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes the timing doesn't link up. 34:42.558 --> 34:56.263 [SPEAKER_02]: hopefully this is like any industry right where there's going to be splashy things announced there is going to be people you know who get more attention than others but a lot of people agents and editors just working class people selling really great books so you know there's a lot of people just out there doing their jobs. 34:56.783 --> 34:57.825 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I like that. 34:58.185 --> 34:58.606 [SPEAKER_01]: I like that. 34:58.806 --> 34:59.727 [SPEAKER_01]: Seven, is that where we are? 35:00.008 --> 35:00.268 [SPEAKER_01]: Seven? 35:00.348 --> 35:01.129 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yeah. 35:01.830 --> 35:06.137 [SPEAKER_01]: Foreign editors by books on the spot at the London Book Fair. 35:07.078 --> 35:14.689 [SPEAKER_01]: Again, not how life works in publishing, especially if you're from other industries that are very fast-paced, this is a struggle. 35:15.450 --> 35:22.200 [SPEAKER_01]: It takes time to read a book, it takes time to make a decision so much of a fair and Phoebe does write this, is about like relationships. 35:22.180 --> 35:27.326 [SPEAKER_01]: you are building a relationship, you are working on a relationship, you are cementing a relationship. 35:27.606 --> 35:29.628 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, oh my god, how have you been since last year? 35:30.088 --> 35:31.590 [SPEAKER_01]: That's the sort of thing that's going on. 35:31.890 --> 35:34.473 [SPEAKER_01]: So we definitely think that is a big myth that needs to be busted. 35:35.554 --> 35:37.757 [SPEAKER_02]: All right, and our last one on the list is number eight. 35:37.997 --> 35:39.859 [SPEAKER_02]: There are lots of glamorous parties. 35:39.939 --> 35:41.561 [SPEAKER_02]: And she says, okay, yes, this one's true. 35:41.861 --> 35:44.083 [SPEAKER_02]: I had to keep one true one in there to keep you on your toes. 35:44.103 --> 35:50.230 [SPEAKER_02]: So a lot of publishers will do different parties on different nights, different agencies will have different 35:50.463 --> 35:54.108 [SPEAKER_02]: some foreign teams will organize meals for everybody. 35:54.248 --> 35:55.510 [SPEAKER_02]: It's a lot of staying up late. 35:55.550 --> 35:57.332 [SPEAKER_02]: So there's a lot of alcohol consumed. 35:57.673 --> 35:59.796 [SPEAKER_02]: There's not a lot of sleep, and it is very fun. 36:00.496 --> 36:01.338 [SPEAKER_02]: That's all there is to it. 36:01.598 --> 36:02.960 [SPEAKER_02]: For extraverts, it's great. 36:03.340 --> 36:07.606 [SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot of people who are publishing that are introverts that have their moment to shine to them. 36:07.626 --> 36:08.988 [SPEAKER_02]: They're like, I really need to sleep. 36:09.108 --> 36:13.534 [SPEAKER_02]: So there's a balance, but I think a lot of the fairs sort of extraverts very well. 36:14.189 --> 36:24.893 [SPEAKER_01]: I remember like first London book fair, same my schedule and it was meetings every 30 minutes like the whole day with one tiny break for lunch and I remember thinking I'm going to die. 36:25.655 --> 36:33.312 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to die, like I'm going to complete my energy and the opposite happened because I spent every single one of those meetings. 36:33.292 --> 36:35.996 [SPEAKER_01]: in this trance of, oh my god, this is my life now. 36:36.096 --> 36:37.018 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm talking about books. 36:37.539 --> 36:41.364 [SPEAKER_01]: Like this person, this person who's sitting in front of me, so I'll go through my head. 36:41.404 --> 36:42.266 [SPEAKER_01]: I wasn't saying this out loud. 36:42.486 --> 36:45.110 [SPEAKER_01]: This person in front of me, she did all these really cool books. 36:45.230 --> 36:49.076 [SPEAKER_01]: And now I get to be here sitting down and talking and it was just the best feeling. 36:49.156 --> 36:53.443 [SPEAKER_01]: So how's something, like whether something drains you or energizes you? 36:54.233 --> 37:10.268 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like it's just such an interesting discovery about yourself, something about book people, book people have a different energy like it's just different when you're around book people when I'm around book people it's it's different and speaking from an intro so it's a lot of yeah yeah no it's great and 37:10.518 --> 37:12.241 [SPEAKER_02]: It's just contagious, right? 37:12.281 --> 37:25.621 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like kind of like, I always say when I go to New York for meetings or go to LA for meetings, it's like a mini book fair for me because you get this like condensed perspective on the industry in a way that's just so validating and refreshing and reminds you while you're passionate about the job that you do. 37:25.841 --> 37:28.285 [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, it's all the fields happen. 37:28.305 --> 37:31.149 [SPEAKER_02]: So thank you to the honest editor, Substack, for that one. 37:31.189 --> 37:33.152 [SPEAKER_02]: And that was great to hope. 37:33.172 --> 37:33.673 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 37:33.653 --> 37:34.475 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, exactly. 37:34.976 --> 37:39.444 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so the last thing I want to let's talk about was the Crave series. 37:39.464 --> 37:51.527 [SPEAKER_02]: So if you guys have been following this lawsuit, and I'm going on for a year, see, see, I don't know if you said in the ALA did a work kind of like a kind of workshop, but they did a panel featuring the agent. 37:51.507 --> 37:57.414 [SPEAKER_02]: She was so brave, so brave, like she just spoke about like what the author was going through. 37:57.535 --> 37:58.576 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, it was incredible. 37:58.596 --> 37:58.796 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 37:59.096 --> 38:04.423 [SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to like give her a huge box of break of arrows, just to thank her for bravery. 38:04.583 --> 38:05.344 [SPEAKER_01]: Amazing. 38:05.504 --> 38:05.965 [SPEAKER_01]: Amazing. 38:06.005 --> 38:06.906 [SPEAKER_01]: She did amazing. 38:07.567 --> 38:10.090 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's just so hard as an agent. 38:10.110 --> 38:16.919 [SPEAKER_02]: You're like, what if I was in that shoes and yeah, and I'm just so glad that they have, you know, come out on top essentially. 38:16.979 --> 38:20.383 [SPEAKER_02]: So should we give the verdict here? 38:21.005 --> 38:28.272 [SPEAKER_02]: Alright, so yesterday a judge in the Southern District of New York ruled that Tracy Wolf did not plagiarize her best-selling series. 38:28.733 --> 38:42.026 [SPEAKER_02]: There's a long running lawsuit for Sprott in 2022 by writer Lynn Freeman, who claimed that Crave was substantially similar to Freeman's manuscript, Blue Moon Rising, which was represented by Wolf's agent, Emily Selbin Kim, and ultimately unpublished. 38:42.486 --> 38:48.632 [SPEAKER_02]: The suit named Kim, the Crave Publisher in Tangle Books, just to be given 38:48.612 --> 38:53.325 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, so this has gone on for years and years, you know, we don't need to kind of give you the whole backstory of this case. 38:53.525 --> 38:54.588 [SPEAKER_02]: This is what Google is for. 38:54.648 --> 38:56.393 [SPEAKER_02]: There's been lots reported on it. 38:56.614 --> 38:58.960 [SPEAKER_02]: But I just kind of wanted to bring it into this. 38:59.412 --> 39:05.740 [SPEAKER_02]: for a couple reasons, which is some great quotes from the judgment on this that I wanted to read out to everybody. 39:06.301 --> 39:11.228 [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, just kind of like validate this because yeah, I'm just so glad we are where we are. 39:11.368 --> 39:12.990 [SPEAKER_02]: So the judgment concludes. 39:13.751 --> 39:24.826 [SPEAKER_02]: This is a case that is easily disposed of once one reads the allegedly infringing works against each other in light of the well developed law in the circuit on substantial similarities within the very works. 39:25.207 --> 39:26.989 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just going to pause for a second 39:26.969 --> 39:33.984 [SPEAKER_02]: The judge read six drafts of blue and rising and four of the craved novels so that they can compare this. 39:34.125 --> 39:36.770 [SPEAKER_01]: This judge, you now can work in publishing. 39:36.931 --> 39:40.879 [SPEAKER_01]: If you read six drafts of the same book, you are an honorary publishing professional judge. 39:40.940 --> 39:43.425 [SPEAKER_01]: We are awarded four of the others. 39:43.405 --> 39:43.705 [SPEAKER_02]: Good. 39:43.725 --> 39:44.426 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. 39:44.566 --> 39:44.867 [SPEAKER_02]: Good job. 39:44.887 --> 39:47.690 [SPEAKER_02]: Like they really did their due diligence, and I am the real bit. 39:47.790 --> 39:48.951 [SPEAKER_02]: But it's okay back to the judgment. 39:49.472 --> 39:57.902 [SPEAKER_02]: Freeman's novel and wolf's craved novels are indeed similar, but only in ways that all young adult romanticy fiction novels are similar to each other. 39:58.502 --> 40:04.549 [SPEAKER_02]: At the granular level, looking at the unique creative expression, they are substantially different, not substantially similar. 40:04.790 --> 40:11.337 [SPEAKER_02]: And I quote. 40:12.076 --> 40:14.221 [SPEAKER_02]: hot, sexy, dangerous boys. 40:14.823 --> 40:21.379 [SPEAKER_02]: Central, to virtually all young adult romance novels could not be copyrighted and vote the court notes. 40:21.980 --> 40:25.308 [SPEAKER_01]: Guys, that can be available for everyone. 40:25.850 --> 40:29.258 [SPEAKER_01]: Whoever wants a hot shit, hot sexy, dangerous. 40:29.879 --> 40:31.883 [SPEAKER_02]: the protagonists are for everyone. 40:31.983 --> 40:36.331 [SPEAKER_02]: So that reporting was in public lunch, but obviously can be found in many places. 40:36.391 --> 40:42.022 [SPEAKER_02]: So I just kind of wanted to end on that because constantly dangerous protagonists cannot be copyrighted, everybody. 40:42.944 --> 40:43.505 [SPEAKER_02]: They just can't. 40:43.765 --> 40:44.306 [SPEAKER_02]: They just can't. 40:45.348 --> 40:47.011 [SPEAKER_02]: All right, and we're going to end on that note today. 40:47.051 --> 40:48.394 [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for hanging out with us, everybody. 40:49.100 --> 40:53.868 [SPEAKER_00]: CCLera is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates. 40:53.888 --> 41:01.622 [SPEAKER_00]: If you'd like to query CC, please refer to the Submission Guidelines at www.wshoman.com. 41:02.283 --> 41:13.302 [SPEAKER_00]: Carly Waters is a literary agent at PS Literary Agency, but a work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Carly on this podcast. 41:13.282 --> 41:24.642 [SPEAKER_00]: are solely that of her as a podcast co-host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS literary agency.