[SPEAKER_00]: Hello, no bad dog army.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is an excellent podcast, especially those who are proofing and troubleshooting the remote collar or the e-collar.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can listen to this absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you don't have, this is more of a troubleshooting for recall, but the owner is also proofing out the remote collar.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is an excellent podcast for those who are struggling with the off leash and in the recall as well as the e-collar proofing.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is a dog that basically is having too much freedom, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So she's eating poop and not coming back.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's going after other dogs and not coming back.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is a walk through on why dog owner struggle with the off leash recall.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's a great, great podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hope you guys enjoy it as always.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for listening.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have some amazing podcasts coming up.
[SPEAKER_00]: So make sure you guys follow me if you're on Spotify or subscriber.
[SPEAKER_00]: However, you guys do it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Always appreciate the love.
[SPEAKER_00]: The number one dog training podcast in the world because of all of you guys.
[SPEAKER_00]: Enjoy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Bye.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's four year old lab.
[SPEAKER_01]: And as I mentioned last week, she's developed some like aggression toward other dogs.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's not consistent.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's like, so kind of probably to say the obvious, you know, we're at a mountain town.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's no, there's no, uh,
[SPEAKER_01]: to basically no leash is anywhere, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, everyone trained dogs, you're not trained dogs.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're just flying all over the place.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, say it was pretty trained and as far as as far as that goes, you know, she could be in a leash and she knows good commands.
[SPEAKER_01]: And in what happened has good recall, trained on an e-toler dog or e-caller.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, she's pretty well behaved.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I'd say in the last year, she's kind of just developed this aggression toward other dogs.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's pretty scary about a week ago.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's just tying a little dog called because the name is Nico and Sailor knows him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Season probably three, four times a week in the bike path that we walk on right outside our house.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just out of my dog was playing with another dog and just out of the blue he walked by and she just turned.
[SPEAKER_01]: You basically used him as a bowling ball and then his owner ended up tackling my dog in the bad situation, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So, very scary.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we're on a walk in a public place like this bike path, you know, where there are the dogs, there's plenty of opportunity to go with her.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know the dogs quite.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sailor can walk up to the dog she's never met and you know, just swagger tail
[SPEAKER_01]: play or do, you know, some dog stuff for a couple of minutes, and then we go by and other dogs will just out of blue, act very submissive and lay down on our back and, you know, want them to give the old sniff test.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then she has her third mode where it all of a sudden she says, I'm going to rip your head off.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's not, it doesn't seem to me like this is a
[SPEAKER_01]: reactive behavior.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's more aggressive.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not just like, hey, I'm going to bark at this dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, sometimes she'll be in heel and I'll let her off and she'll go sniff another dog's face.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, there's a sort of a telltale sign when both of them have their ears back and they're not blinking.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, that tells me like, okay, I got to call her off.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I can call her off.
[SPEAKER_01]: But if I don't catch that,
[SPEAKER_01]: early enough, then all hell breaks loose and there's teeth, there's growling, chasing, she goes from like the coolest dog in the world to, I mean, it's like Dr. Checkle, Mr. Hyde.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's what's going on.
[SPEAKER_01]: My question, I mean, you can offer any advice that you want, but I did have a question.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I can, she's always got her e-color on.
[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, she's not at least there's, I can,
[SPEAKER_01]: If I do see her from a distance or even right next to another dog that she's never met and I see that behavior, is it best to Correct out of that behavior or redirect before she might.
[SPEAKER_01]: like escalated to the next level or should I actually wait to.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, it's a, yeah, I would, is that my sense?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it does.
[SPEAKER_00]: I personally, for me, I would be really outweigh in the, the amount of times she's, she's more reactive than not.
[SPEAKER_00]: So for an example, if you go out and you, because it, because right now it seems inconsistent, unpredictable.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when you have inconsistent and unpredictable behavior, which means, you know, if she goes and see one dog, she's fine, the next dog, she's fine, the next dog, she's curious and the next dog, she freaks out at.
[SPEAKER_00]: Then, I mean, obviously, like your objective would try to figure out what the trigger.
[SPEAKER_00]: what's the variable?
[SPEAKER_00]: Why did this fourth dog make her react, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: But if you can't do that, then every time she's off leash, you're kind of flipping a coin to know if she's, if she's going to make a good decision or not.
[SPEAKER_00]: So for me, for me personally, I would recommend setting her up for success to have
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to say no interactions, but control more controlled interactions.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, personally for me, let's say if this was my dog, and I say, okay, my dog's starting to get a little weird towards dogs, and it's not consistent, and it's kind of a flip of a coin.
[SPEAKER_00]: Which means you don't know if she's going to go off or she's not, which is, you know, it is what it is.
[SPEAKER_00]: And maybe you can't find a consistency, because it might be, oh, she was great with this dog yesterday and now she's not.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it could be her.
[SPEAKER_00]: So meaning the trigger may not be the other dogs, it could just be, you know, whatever she's going through, personality, maturity, grumpyness, soreness, whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I would be more on the being proactive instead of reactive.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when I was out with her and I saw a dog, I would just say, say, other come, recall her, put her on lead or I would put her into a sitstay and then once the dog passed, I would break or the dogs would have a meet near you so that way you can jump in if you need to or you can read the body language and
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you come back to answer your question if she does get into a situation where she starts to get reactive towards another dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: It would be a recall.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you could correct her, but I think it's just too chaotic.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would just be saying, hey, you need to get out of here more than anything.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what I would be doing here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I did.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, let's see what I can't remember the model.
[SPEAKER_01]: of Doctor that we use actually I found a little about a year ago.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's very similar to the one that that you created with Doctor, they just didn't have that particular one in stock.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like the sip, but it's basically the same thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I use one of the Bungie colors anyway.
[SPEAKER_01]: So she is four or five days ago.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wasn't watching, she ended up taking off to go see a bunch of other
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I immediately hit the E collar, her level is right around eight or nine, non-distracted.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, I can go up to if she's haunting a rodents nest or something core mile away and I see her and I'm going to shout, you know, sometimes I have to go up like 15.
[SPEAKER_01]: Together to say, okay, yep, that's what you mean.
[SPEAKER_01]: I ended up at a 40, 42 maybe.
[SPEAKER_01]: and she was, she wasn't stopping.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, she was not going to, uh,
[SPEAKER_01]: There was nothing coming.
[SPEAKER_01]: You could tell she was in discomfort with it and it was probably embarrassing to me and probably uncomfortable for people around seeing this dog like Yelp every once in a while and then as soon as she realized what was happening, she came back but it wasn't going to stop her.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean there was nothing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Her drive is just too much.
[SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't nothing was going to stop her from going to say hi to those friends and thankfully everything was fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: She liked to hold the dogs and
[SPEAKER_01]: Now what have you and she came back when she realized what the situation was like oh yeah that's that's my owner saying I should come back but it took into a 40 something to and yelping to get her to bust out of that behavior.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so I'm assuming you just want my opinion on that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, is that, I mean, I always look at people that have e-colors that are just nailing their dogs, like you said, you got a trained dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and then here I am, the guy that's nailing my dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, she's running away for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so a couple of things, I mean, obviously we definitely never want to see that, but at the same exact time, that's a really good learning and a situation for you, and that's good for you to know, like, okay, what just happened, what just transpired, this is something's going on here, and so for me, like first and foremost, it would be like a timing thing, so this happens often
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, okay, for an example, you're out for a walk and you're dog's on an e-caller.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's off leash.
[SPEAKER_00]: You see a group of dogs.
[SPEAKER_00]: So a lot of times dog owners are too late to the game.
[SPEAKER_00]: When you know you don't want your dog to go, that's when you immediately recall the dog put the dog in the leash.
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of times dog owners wait for the dog to perk up, get stimulated, and then take off towards the dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: and then we try to recreate them.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, I mean, but it should happen.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, we have to work on that.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, there's a two-way street here.
[SPEAKER_00]: It isn't just, hey, your timing was off.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's just the first low-ing in-fruit.
[SPEAKER_00]: That when your dog is making that decision, she's running away from you.
[SPEAKER_00]: She feels the collar.
[SPEAKER_00]: She gets, ah, this sucks.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't, you know, whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: She finds it aversive, but,
[SPEAKER_00]: the reality is it's not a verse of enough to stop her.
[SPEAKER_00]: So to your point, yes, we don't want to ever hear our dogs verbally, you know, we step on our dogs pause or we correct them with any color and sometimes we're too high without realizing, oops, I made a mistake, like, shit happens.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not the end of the world dogs are resilient.
[SPEAKER_00]: And
[SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, she didn't care.
[SPEAKER_00]: So she didn't care enough to come back, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So so some dogs will fight through that because the it's a risk reward assessment.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's that simple, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: She's like, this is way more important to me than this correction.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to fight through this.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then, and so the other thing too, just to get granular on some of this behavior sometimes what we see too is dogs, they're instinct, rather it's a protective instinct, or it's a, I want to go play instinct, whatever their instinct is.
[SPEAKER_00]: overrides the punishment so they they feel it and but they're just so locked in that they're instinct just overrides it and so sometimes going up still may not help but that's a learning to go okay we need to we need to we need to address this as a training protocol.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's where, again, timing when you see another group of dogs don't wait for her to already be in a sprint or a gate towards them because that's where she's already locked in.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you would see the dogs recall her leisure.
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't wait for her to take off.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then secondly, I would personally be going, say, okay, this is a hole in the ship here.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is a hole in our training.
[SPEAKER_00]: This we need to work on this.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I would get my, I would go right back to the basics.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would get my long line out.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would get my e-caller out.
[SPEAKER_00]: I get my food out.
[SPEAKER_00]: And because you've been enjoying off-leash life, sounds like for a while now, she has showed, she has showed you a hole in your training, which is, it's inevitable.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's a great opportunity for you to go, okay, we need to work on this.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, for me, it would be long line, e-collar, letting her out.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, I would be actively, like, with clients that I work with, I'd be actively going out to try to find groups of dogs to work on this.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a, hey, we need to work on this.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, I'd let her out in the long line.
[SPEAKER_00]: She'd go, we'd say, come, and you'd work through your numbers, and you'd really just double down on the mistakes that she made.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, that's the second thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you're recommending using a long line.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have, I don't know, 15 footer.
[SPEAKER_01]: We've got a 30 footer.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a little bit of extensive.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I would agree.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, 15 is mining.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like a 15 footer with with the color.
[SPEAKER_00]: The 15 footer is typically my, like the honey spot for me, the 15 footer and the E-colour, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so you would, if you saw about to load up,
[SPEAKER_01]: as she was of Martin Gale Collars or every day, Collars would you give her a correction on that?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I have a prong collar also, but would you give her a correction on that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Or when would you hit, good question?
[SPEAKER_01]: Good question.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I would be just using the stimulation because she's already trained on, she's already trained on the e-collar.
[SPEAKER_00]: So your long line just prohibits her from getting to the other dogs.
[SPEAKER_00]: and it allows her to think through this process.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you have your 15 footer, you see dogs, she takes off, come, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So let's say, here's an example.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's say she's next to you, and then there's the other dogs that are 30 feet away.
[SPEAKER_00]: So she gets five feet away from you, you recaller.
[SPEAKER_00]: Good, payer, give her a break.
[SPEAKER_00]: She goes up, I'm gonna go back, you let her get eight feet away from you.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you just incrementally let her get closer to the thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: and you're recalibrating your e-colour, right, so you're making sure she understands it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So so what at some point in time, she had lost the ability to think clearly in that training scenario where she goes, I don't care what the e-colour says.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know what you're saying.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm fighting through this.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going all the way.
[SPEAKER_00]: So as you just need to recreate that picture to work on it, like anything else in life, like think about anything, you're like, oh, I made it.
[SPEAKER_00]: That wasn't the outcome I wanted, you go back and you try it and you rep it and you rep it and you rep it and you train and you train and you train and you go, okay, now this feels good, now I feel good about this.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you just do that over and over again because a lot of times in dog training, we are basic, we become a very binary situation where everything's great and then holy crap, everything is awful.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, it becomes like best day ever to the most stressful thing that's happening.
[SPEAKER_00]: So for me, I go out and I find these opportunities to train over and over again.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when I'm doing recall,
[SPEAKER_00]: with my clients.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's say I have a piece of food in my hand.
[SPEAKER_00]: The dog owners 20 feet away for me and we have a 15 foot long line.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oftentimes, dog owners instinct this to let the dog all away to me, let the dog eat the food and then recall off.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not bad to do, it's just if the dog isn't prepped and primed.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if seen that picture of recalling, it's going to be more difficult for the dog to recall all the way.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what I do is I say, let the dog come to me to five feet from you, recall.
[SPEAKER_00]: Good.
[SPEAKER_00]: 10 feet from you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Good.
[SPEAKER_00]: 15 feet from you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Good.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're basically building this path.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the dog knows what path to go down.
[SPEAKER_00]: Instead of letting the dog go all the way 20 feet from me, get into the food and then recall.
[SPEAKER_00]: you're going 5 feet, 10 feet, 15 feet, 30 feet.
[SPEAKER_00]: Does that make sense?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's what I would do is I would get the long line back.
[SPEAKER_00]: So basically she just found a hole in your training and you need to go back out and you need to wrap it just to show her that picture over and over and over again.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you let the, and then you let the long line drag.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then if she goes up to the group of dogs and you thinks everything's great, back up.
[SPEAKER_00]: Tell her come, see how they come.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, good.
[SPEAKER_00]: Give her a break.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let her go right back to the dogs.
[SPEAKER_00]: She needs to see that picture over and over again.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that way when you ask her to do it, she goes, oh, I've worked on this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, it's, it's a, it's a muscle memory that she has, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a, it's the same thing for anything in life, driving, eating like I do a lot of martial like jiu-jitsu.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if I'm new to something and I don't know my feet go or my hands go, I'm like, I feel so at a place and then I rep it and rep it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So same thing you let her go to the dogs, recall her out.
[SPEAKER_00]: Good.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think right there, she just, you know, showed you that she wasn't going to come back.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, yeah, sucks had happened, but I would just rebuild it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Gotcha.
[SPEAKER_01]: So as far as the this random behavior that she is, like, developed it, it's really just like some dogs.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, should we expect her, I mean, is that something that's usually ingrained in dogs heads?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, obviously, uh, you know, we're talking about working on the recall and making sure that that is, uh, uh, uh, that's the best it could be.
[SPEAKER_01]: But say, I'm just going to create a scenario that is fairly normal around here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, I might have, I might be walking her after, uh, work around
[SPEAKER_01]: two or three friends that have it a walk up on the bike path, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And we're hanging out the owners, we're hanging out and they're it's basically like a dog park that's not really dog park, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So the dogs are playing and then another dog comes up.
[SPEAKER_01]: Say what decides when, you know, I'm going to eat this dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: Should we expect that behavior to
[SPEAKER_01]: Disappeate.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I know we're talking about get the recall and the e-collar dialed in.
[SPEAKER_01]: So essentially, effectively, collar off when that happened, but by doing more training and getting her close to more dogs, should we expect that behavior to dissipate or always expect that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that the type of thing that's ingrained in the dogs head and may not ever cease?
[SPEAKER_00]: Good question.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know the answer, but I can say that it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if it's personality based, which means she has created this in her personality where she says, you know what, I don't like X this type of dog or I don't like a dog that doesn't.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, she, she fucking hates Bernie's
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, there you go.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know why.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah, so if you find it, if you find, like there's nothing that you can do, likely to change that personality trait.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like that's not, okay, there's nothing, when we think about dog training, it's, that isn't part of the plan to say, hey, she goes, I hate Bernie's mountain dogs, you can't say, well, I'm gonna teach her to like them, because the variable and the trigger is another dog that you'd have to control a robot, which you can't, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So, okay, so it would be so for me like a giving example my Saint Bernard when he turned around five when he was alive He was a dog going to daycare.
[SPEAKER_00]: He was my Demo dog like I like other dogs are climb all over him.
[SPEAKER_00]: They would react to him and he just could care less He at like five years old and then all of a sudden everything changed.
[SPEAKER_00]: She hated dogs
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, he had a couple interactions with dogs or I was like, what just happened?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know, that that's, he used, like, literally was in doggy daycare, like, could care less.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then all of a sudden change.
[SPEAKER_00]: So for me, I just went completely the other way.
[SPEAKER_00]: I said no dogs, no meeting, nothing, like that was it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, so again, you have to, so you just have to try to figure out, like we talked about earlier, you have to try to figure out,
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so there's that for whatever reason and if you can't figure out which again, like I said, if it's okay with this one dog today and then okay, and not okay the next day, then you just have to say okay, then you know what you're making inconsistent bad choices.
[SPEAKER_00]: So now I'm taking away some of the freedoms that you used to have because you're making bad decisions and don't feel bad about that because she's obviously not wanting these interactions anyway.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because a lot of people are like, oh, so my dog can't go say hi to other dogs.
[SPEAKER_00]: I said, well, if your dog 50 to 60% of the time is going up and fighting with another dog, they don't want to do this anyway.
[SPEAKER_00]: so it's so for me it would be a matter of flipping that coin so to answer your question it could it could definitely be a personality thing where there's no triggers right so let me explain the other end what you can work on let's say well my dog doesn't like intact males okay well that's something that you could probably try to sort out and navigate
[SPEAKER_00]: or my dog corrects other dogs when she gets mounted.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, okay, that's fair.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's totally, okay, and you know when it's going to happen and it ends there.
[SPEAKER_00]: But when you have a dog that is interacting with several dogs a day and all of a sudden just starts to fight another dog,
[SPEAKER_00]: that's your sign to go okay no more random dog interactions so you pick your dogs that she knows and that she gets along with and you're okay with those things the alternative would be again flipping that coin like you said she went up to these dogs and everything was great
[SPEAKER_00]: But I try to be more proactive than reactive.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm trying to make sure that things are better.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm setting my dog up for success.
[SPEAKER_00]: You have nothing to prove.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when you're out with her, it's not like, oh, she reacted, I failed.
[SPEAKER_00]: We need to get better.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, no, she reacted because she doesn't like this particular dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's nothing you could have ever, or anybody could have ever done about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So your obedience has to go up because she has to be sharper because now you're navigating through the the wild west of a bunch of awfully dogs and you just have to kind of like duck around these situations and kind of take the higher road if you will.
[SPEAKER_00]: got you got you and less you can find a treasure you know like where you're like oh she just doesn't like X you know it's so it's okay for you to so she's not it's not like she's missing out like I don't want you to and I know that you're not I'm just saying no no no she's as long as she's uh I mean she's out with you so I'm like yours she's not missing out on anything right right so she's so so that's what I mean is
[SPEAKER_00]: You set her up for success, but you know again, she goes out.
[SPEAKER_00]: She fights Two out of five dogs.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're like Why what are we doing this is there the ROI and here doesn't make any sense like you're having You're having more issues than you're having not and like you said like she's out having fun with you You may find a couple dogs that she she really likes that there's actually no interactions with
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's fine, but for me, I would just be like, okay, no other interactions with dogs or at least limited, you know, to what you can control.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's what I would do.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me ask you another question.
[SPEAKER_01]: kind of related to this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I'm, I asked you the last time we talked, but Taylor loves to eat shit of all sorts.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: They dog, moose, deer, elk, whatever's on the menu today.
[SPEAKER_01]: She, she's like, yeah, give me some of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she does, she actually has a resource guarding problem with other dogs.
[SPEAKER_01]: If they come over and
[SPEAKER_01]: trying to sniff out a two-day old age to perfection pilot dog poo and she will definitely let the other dog know, no, you cannot do this.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think, you know, that's, that's just, it sort of is what it is, but how would you, for an adult dog, how would you go about training her out of that unfortunate habit?
[SPEAKER_00]: Creacolor.
[SPEAKER_00]: It would be a lot of e-colour training, so when she's getting to, for an example, like what they do, how you familiar with what they do with rattlesnake avoidance.
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, no.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: So similar.
[SPEAKER_00]: So rattlesnake avoidance.
[SPEAKER_00]: What they do.
[SPEAKER_00]: Give it a quick.
[SPEAKER_00]: They get a rattlesnake or they get a fake rattlesnake with the rattlesnake scent.
[SPEAKER_00]: Most of the times it's real rattlesnakes and they put a they put a dog out into the situation to wear the dog is going to smell and get close to the rattlesnake and they have an e-color on the dog and the dog goes near the rattlesnake and they get
[SPEAKER_00]: correct now i'll i'll just say this there is a difference between a rattlesnake and poop so um we got to meet in the middle here and they correct the dog in the highest level uh and they usually it one's enough um so they turn it all the way up and they nailed the dog as soon as they get close to that so therefore the dog says that smell that thing that sound
[SPEAKER_00]: I want nothing to do with that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they test him over a couple weeks just to make sure they're in.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so some people, you know, and I've had this conversation, which is very ironic that some people frown upon that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, okay, so let your dog get bit by rattlesnake and die from venom or get corrected by any caller.
[SPEAKER_00]: People are like, naturally, it's crazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, I know that you're a normal thinking human beings, so I don't have to worry about that.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, so it'd be similar to for me personally anyway it would be and I've actually done this with with my mastive because he just started chute, that's dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: He just started, I have a fence in backyard and I don't let him out there by himself often.
[SPEAKER_00]: I try to walk him and train him and he's only out there to pee, but
[SPEAKER_00]: He started chewing on my very very expensive cold plunge.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's made out of wood.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like a beautiful Marasco handcrafted cold plunge.
[SPEAKER_00]: For whatever reason he just thought he's going to start taking chunks out of that.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I've similarly done that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I've similarly done that where I just put him out there.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no verbal cues.
[SPEAKER_00]: The moment he gets close to it, I correct him and he avoids it now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, so again, it's not gonna take, you know, it's not gonna hurt him, but again, it's my $10,000 cold plunge that I don't want chunks of wood enough.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, so similarly to like that, I would be doing, and that's the beauty of the remote collar is you have the ability to communicate with a dog completely wireless.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, it would be, so right now, her corrective level sounds like, um, 15 to 20, I think you said.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like, my wife and I will routinely hit 15, 17, I mean, whatever you can,
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, when you're in the moment, it's hard to dial in and exactly, but, you know, 15, 17, 20, whatever it is on continuous, and there's a boost button on this particular unit too that, you know, takes up another 10, you know, does that work for the food, it does like, but it's the same type of, you can, you can tell with the dog, it's her same type of reaction is what happened when she just took it off and I was at 42 or whatever it was, okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's just so driven toward what she wants that she's, you know, you can tell she's, you know, wiggling her head and you can just like, oh, why am I doing this?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I'm hurting her in the same time.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's like finishes up her the last bite of poo and then runs, you know, runs right back at me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, it often goes through my head when with remote collars, you know, she's trained
[SPEAKER_01]: without any distractions, she'll come back at a, okay, I think I told you like an eight, nine, I mean, she's like instant, loves it, comes back, where you're gonna tell things, it's the greatest thing ever.
[SPEAKER_01]: So in a dog's mind, is there a differentiation between do you think, between that low level stimulation?
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, something a verse of where she's yelping and shaking her head and scratching it herself
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's, you know, where do you start feeling bad?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think, again, like it's pleasure over pain here, you know, so for me, it's, it's, the first thing I would say is like it sounds like you need to work around those higher distractions.
[SPEAKER_00]: So a lot of times, dog owners, when they introduce the remote collar, the dog is only in this like fairy tale situation where you hit the e-car, you hit the e-car, you hit the e-car, they come back to get paid, six or seven.
[SPEAKER_00]: So to me it sounds like you need to kind of advance your e-colour communication skills as well because it sounds like she hasn't worked around heavy or distract like you either she hasn't done it often or you need to revisit it because right now when you turn that pressure up and she goes out of this sucks there's two things happening
[SPEAKER_00]: She's either, I don't really know how to shut this off, or I don't care to shut this off because this poop or these other dogs are better.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it's her, you're putting it into her decision-making, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So she goes, I don't, I'd rather fight through this to get what I want, which, which it could be the case.
[SPEAKER_00]: But also, again, it goes back to what I was saying before about the Longline E collar is if you go from very basic obedience with the remote collar to then very extreme,
[SPEAKER_00]: It's hard to tell how fluent the dog is on the remote collar communication because you don't have any middle ground here.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's either taking off, twitching her head, going after poop or other dogs or whatever, or she's reconvened beautifully without much going on.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I would say that you really need to touch base back with your e-collar conditioning to make sure
[SPEAKER_00]: uh she really understands how to answer that phone because to me it sounds like if you're putting enough pressure on her where she's going this sucks so bad she and I'd have to you'd have to really work through it to know but she could just be like I don't know what to do with this because you don't use the corrective levels often.
[SPEAKER_00]: Or when you do go up that high you have so for an example if you have a long like for an example She takes off right you have your long line on our 15 20 whatever So she takes off you go up to a 40 50 she goes ah this sucks
[SPEAKER_00]: But she never has an opportunity to turn it off at that level.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you hold the long line and you give her a little bit of pressure and you kind of pull her back to you and she comes back then it shuts off.
[SPEAKER_00]: She might go, oh, so when it feels like this, I have to do this.
[SPEAKER_00]: So sometimes this is like a missed step in the e-collar conditioning because of the because of the unrealistic conditioning phases.
[SPEAKER_00]: because you've done the intro, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So recall pay, recall pay, recall pay, low levels.
[SPEAKER_00]: Great.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the minute she takes off into this deep end, if you will, she maybe she hasn't seen the picture clearly enough to know that when that level goes that high, she doesn't really know how to shut it off.
[SPEAKER_00]: That could very well be the case.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I've seen that plenty of times with dogs, where they're squealing away for me, and they're like, that shut this thing off.
[SPEAKER_00]: And, and so for me it would be, okay, this dog clearly doesn't know how to shut this thing off and we need to go back to the drawing board.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's where I would go is you need that long line to teach her.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you would find the poop or in my opinion, and I've done this plenty of times, I would get the poop and I'd put it out there.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I do like, I do this, so the dog would go out.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you'd kind of just like, oh, yeah, no big deal.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, another day in Paradise, she goes towards the poop, towards not at, right, because the difference is is once she gets there, she's going to scarf it and then come back.
[SPEAKER_00]: What you want with the the missing piece that you're missing right now is that middle ground.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if she didn't know it was there and you just said her name said her come, she's it right back to you, likely.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the minute she got to the poop, you'd say, come, she goes, you hold on, you hold on, up, up, up, up, up, up, up.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then she'd scarf it down and puke it up on the way to you.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you really need to, so right now, for an example, you're going from A to Z and you really need to finish the end between.
[SPEAKER_00]: You need to really show her these pictures for two reasons.
[SPEAKER_00]: She needs to, she needs to understand that when that e-color does get high and it does get uncomfortable.
[SPEAKER_00]: in order to shut it off she knows how to do it because sometimes again dogs if you miss these steps they just don't know how to shut it off they just go this sucks and i guess i'm just you know animals they're animals they don't you know they just fight through it sometimes
[SPEAKER_00]: But then the other thing is, is it really helps you establish advancing your obedience.
[SPEAKER_00]: Instead of going from very, very, very basic to extremely difficult, aka off-leash dogs, and aka moose poop, you're really missing the in-between, in my opinion.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, there's, you've got two pieces of bread, but there's nothing in between.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's, that's, that's why you're, I think that that's the communication error.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_01]: That could be when I first trained her on an e-collar, I did it.
[SPEAKER_01]: basic dog park that is here in the winter.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I trained her at, I first went, I mean, she's never, I guess she was there once and then I realized, hey, this is not a lot of a dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I trained her, I don't know, maybe 200 yards from it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then we got closer and closer and closer and totally were maybe 25, 30 yards from the entrance, and she could see all the dogs.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's,
[SPEAKER_01]: We haven't neither me or my wife has done much sense, and that was two and a half, three, almost three years ago.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, uh, and you're missing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and you're missing that piece because even in my e-colour course, it's the final piece for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: is letting the dog off leash and getting into something.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like what we did is, and this is just was serendipitous, I guess, but we had a, during the filming of the course, we ended up getting Jepulty for lunch.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so the dog we were working with, like, just sort of going towards the, of course, the Jepulty, and I was like, oh, this is perfect.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's just use this.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we let her all the way off leash, like basically head in the bag,
[SPEAKER_00]: and we recalled her off of that and we were like okay so for me there's that test of she knows how to shut the higher pressure off she knows what to do with it and I know that she can recall I mean it's not gonna get much more distracting than than that so so that's the other thing is if you if you A haven't practiced that in a while or B
[SPEAKER_00]: didn't do a lot of it in the beginning like you have to like that the intermediate stage is so important it's like going from white belt black belt like you have to you have to do the steps to get there unless you're going to get crushed so it's the same thing like if you if you didn't work on
[SPEAKER_00]: the long line to the poop or the long line to the other dogs or the long line to anything higher distraction you live in this very kind of unapplicable e-collar training for your sake because you're again like when nothing's going on you know to your point of our earlier conversation of you know doing positive reinforcement training it's like it's going to work up and tell the reality sets in and then you're screwed.
[SPEAKER_00]: right what's going to happen when you have something more motivating and more rewarding into the environment and your dog only knows to chase motivation.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that could be a, that could be it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that that makes total sense to me is missing that middle ground of really kind of breadcrumbing her along and showing her the picture.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: That makes sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's the first
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, let me just so I'm clear in the clear and the poop, uh, eonsenereo in your advice.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, and again, she walks, you know, we could be in a trail in, you know, the t-tons are in the, you know, snaker of a range, whatever it is, you know, just in the mountains.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or we could be walking on this bike path that I've been telling you about.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's say we're walking in a bike path, or walking, either one doesn't really know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, and
[SPEAKER_01]: You can't really tell if she's when she decides to go off and, you know, sniff, she's a dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's got a great note.
[SPEAKER_01]: She wants to go sniff everything and I think that that's I think it's healthy for her to do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So how do you tell like, where is the, I can't really tell when she's going up to get poop.
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess is my point.
[SPEAKER_01]: Unless I know the cheese or where of a certain pile that hasn't been picked up as somebody
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, I'm looking at her and thinking she is she there is this poop or is this not poop?
[SPEAKER_01]: And then let's say she does find a pile and that's what she was living.
[SPEAKER_01]: Would you still correct her off of the poop, even if you weren't able to do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Proactively.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, if she was actively eating it, yeah, but like I said before, yes, yes, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so it would be like if I went outside and looked at my my my window and so my dog chewed on my cold plunger would correct him during the act.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would try to be proactive when she starts going over there and sniff in the corner of the cold plunger would correct him then that would be ideal.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's the same thing we talked about earlier is the timing is really important because the dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: is going, hey, there's other dogs or she'll go, oh, hey, I smell poop and she's halfway committed.
[SPEAKER_00]: The moment she fully commits and she's either eating the poop or she's sprinting towards the dog, your e-colour communication and your training has to really be- that means you would have to practice, in my opinion, in my experience.
[SPEAKER_00]: The running towards the other dog,
[SPEAKER_00]: In order to really get that better, you have to practice her, either running towards the other dog or at the other dogs.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it's unrealistic for you to have her sprinting towards other dogs.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's the ultimate recall.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you say, well, we haven't ever done that or we haven't done it in a long time, then it makes total sense why she's not clear on what she should be doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's why she's fighting through this.
[SPEAKER_00]: But same thing with the poop if she's getting it, it would be a really hard recall, like get your butt back here.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I would have been, she needs to be trained up to that point.
[SPEAKER_00]: So again, you're going black belt, theota status, but you need to really work up to that point in practice.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So don't.
[SPEAKER_00]: So again, it's she's getting all the way to the poop.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's eating the poop.
[SPEAKER_00]: That is the hardest recall you're ever going to get in dog training and same thing when she's at the other dogs or she's chasing a move.
[SPEAKER_00]: So whatever the heck it is, that's the hardest recall you're going to get.
[SPEAKER_00]: But you have to incrementally get to that point in order for her to really know how to shut these things off and respond.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, Yeah, for sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I mean, I think I, I think I have a pretty good plan.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I just have to explain it to my wife.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: You have to just incrementally.
[SPEAKER_00]: make sure that you are breadcrumming her along.
[SPEAKER_00]: So instead of allowing her to start chasing towards the dogs, actually eating the poop, you have to figure out a training scenario, say, hey, you know, we got some poop.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to go put it out there and we're going to train.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sounds weird, but that's what we need to do in order for her to understand.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you get your long line.
[SPEAKER_00]: She starts sniffing towards the poop.
[SPEAKER_00]: You recall her before she gets there.
[SPEAKER_00]: She goes, hey, what?
[SPEAKER_00]: So you're really just incrementally teaching her what she needs to do away from that.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that means when she gets there, she fully understands that it would be like, like, water coming down a mountain, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's starting to kind of create this path.
[SPEAKER_00]: Once the path is created, it just flows right down like it's super easy.
[SPEAKER_00]: But in the beginning it's not right.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's kind of it's got to find an eroded path to go down So the moment she gets to that poop you have to have this clear line of like I want you to come back So you practice come back practice come back practice come back.
[SPEAKER_00]: She gets the poop come back She goes, oh yeah, I know how to do this We're right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: It seems like you're out for a walk.
[SPEAKER_00]: You didn't practice coming back You didn't practice coming back.
[SPEAKER_00]: She gets to the hardest distraction.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're ever gonna find and then you say come back Which is like really in reverse
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: So just make make perfect.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and that's good because it, you know, the the conversations I have with dog owners that don't make any sense are a much more difficult, but when something like this is happening, it makes sense to me as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hopefully we can, you know, train her out of the scenario all the other, but, you know, we've got the tools to do it and looking forward to
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think my dog knocked out eat other dogs, especially little.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I agree.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's, that's scary.
[SPEAKER_01]: Very well involved.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and that's the thing too.
[SPEAKER_00]: See, I think she's just got too much freedom as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: So right now, you're kind of going through life like, oh, man, that was weird.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, man, that was weird.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, oh, this could be who she is now.
[SPEAKER_00]: So now we're just not going to let her do that and you'll be, you'll be way more successful.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're just like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's over.
[SPEAKER_01]: She does have a lot of freedom.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's definitely princess.
[SPEAKER_01]: Princess Taylor.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure we're doing all mainly me doing a lot of other stuff incorrectly within the house.
[SPEAKER_01]: So she's kind of my dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: She gets what you want.
[SPEAKER_01]: So maybe I'll all dial that stuff back a little bit too.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, just I think just balance.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just work on the other end.
[SPEAKER_00]: Find you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Give her everything she wants.
[SPEAKER_00]: But when you go out and you tell her, hey, you need to come back.
[SPEAKER_00]: Cause, you know, you don't want her eating that stuff or you don't want her to fight another dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's, it's, you got to prepare her for that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think she's just ill, ill repair, it prepared right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you're just jumping off the deep end right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she's like, wait, I've never seen this before.
[SPEAKER_00]: What, you want me to come back, but I'm already here.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know,