WEBVTT 00:05.836 --> 00:08.267 [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to the Lord of the Rings lorecast. 00:09.151 --> 00:14.918 [SPEAKER_01]: The show that explores the background of tokens amazing world from the very beginning. 00:25.107 --> 00:37.005 [SPEAKER_00]: So correct me if I'm wrong, but I have a feeling that most of us have watched the movies, especially the Lord of the Rings trilogy, more often or at least more recently than we've read through the books. 00:37.786 --> 00:42.694 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, of course that's not everybody, but I have a feeling I'm in the majority here. 00:42.674 --> 00:56.286 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm more likely to put on the movies again, say, around Christmas time to enjoy them with the family than I am to crack open a book and read all the way through it again unless I'm in that particular mood, or I'm researching for the podcast. 00:56.646 --> 01:07.175 [SPEAKER_00]: Now what this means, at least for me, is that oftentimes the parts of the book that get shaved down for the movies, I'm more likely to remember the details in the movie. 01:07.716 --> 01:12.580 [SPEAKER_00]: The specifics of the conversation here, for example, as we're getting into this 01:12.560 --> 01:22.437 [SPEAKER_00]: dialogue between Frodo and Gand off and Gand off being sure or finding out for sure that this is actually the one ring, Frodo's response to that and all of that. 01:22.958 --> 01:24.862 [SPEAKER_00]: Of course, that's paired down for the movie. 01:24.982 --> 01:28.408 [SPEAKER_00]: You can't have every single piece of dialogue from the book, 01:28.388 --> 01:32.536 [SPEAKER_00]: and not have a movie that would have been twice as long as it actually came out to be. 01:32.856 --> 01:35.260 [SPEAKER_00]: In these types of situations, something always has to give. 01:35.501 --> 01:40.510 [SPEAKER_00]: And what that means is, the pieces that get cut out, I'm less likely to remember. 01:41.031 --> 01:46.060 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's another one of the benefits of doing one of these very close readthroughs. 01:46.040 --> 01:49.467 [SPEAKER_00]: is that I get to emphasize for all of you, but also for myself. 01:49.807 --> 01:54.516 [SPEAKER_00]: The pieces that are typically left out from the movies or get changed or whatever. 01:54.957 --> 02:02.932 [SPEAKER_00]: And in this section, we're going over Frodo and Gandalf and Gandalf is answering Frodo's questions for the first time in years. 02:03.533 --> 02:09.685 [SPEAKER_00]: And the one thing I noticed here before we get to the actual putting the ring in the fire and seeing the writing on it. 02:09.665 --> 02:32.263 [SPEAKER_00]: is how much this section of the book foreshadows other things not just foreshadows other things that are going to happen like us being able to see Bilbo again or discovering that Sauromon is corrupted and not a good person anymore that's an important point but those things get hinted at here but not only do we get this foreshadow and about things that will be revealed in the future 02:32.243 --> 02:47.485 [SPEAKER_00]: This conversation, this early in the book, with details about things going on far away, not exactly in this moment, or in the past, is part of the world building, and it's a tricky thing, right? 02:47.465 --> 03:02.743 [SPEAKER_00]: Think about the amount of time you have when somebody's reading a book, especially in the first chapter or two, to really capture them, to capture their imaginations, to make them interested in the plot and the story and the characters, so that they continue through with the story. 03:02.763 --> 03:14.097 [SPEAKER_00]: One of the things that I would assume most writers would avoid is inundating the reader with too many details about things that don't matter in that moment to the characters that have been 03:14.077 --> 03:27.203 [SPEAKER_00]: revealed so far as the ones that were rooting for the main character and the friends of that character in this case of course Frodo and Gandalf and Sam and Mary and of course Bilbo and whatever ends up happening with him in the future as the stories are looting to. 03:27.464 --> 03:30.550 [SPEAKER_00]: But the difference here is that Tolkien doesn't commit this 03:30.530 --> 03:31.091 [SPEAKER_00]: mistake. 03:31.291 --> 03:38.262 [SPEAKER_00]: He doesn't bring up things in the outer world in order to just fill in the details about what's going on in the rest of Middle Earth. 03:38.703 --> 03:48.198 [SPEAKER_00]: In order to make the place feel bigger, he brings up specific details that are pertinent to Gandalf, to Frodo, to the history of the situation they're dealing with. 03:48.438 --> 03:54.748 [SPEAKER_00]: He's able to simultaneously bring us closer to these characters by giving them greater depth. 03:54.728 --> 04:09.885 [SPEAKER_00]: While also revealing more about the history of the world and the expansiveness of everything else that's going on, Heck, the Dark Lord is even brought up in this section of the story, and the danger that he could pose to the Shire by potentially enslaving them. 04:09.865 --> 04:11.608 [SPEAKER_00]: foreshadowing, guess what? 04:11.648 --> 04:17.497 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not the Dark Lord, but it is a evil person who is also foreshadowed in this part of the story. 04:18.038 --> 04:29.356 [SPEAKER_00]: So it all comes together and it all works in both ways to make us more interested in the characters, to fill in some details, but also to expand the world and make it feel bigger. 04:30.017 --> 04:36.447 [SPEAKER_00]: While still foreshadowing, doing literary types of stuff that you would 04:36.427 --> 04:38.390 [SPEAKER_00]: But I guess we all already knew that, right? 04:38.771 --> 04:39.873 [SPEAKER_00]: Alright, so let's get into it. 04:40.313 --> 04:51.752 [SPEAKER_00]: Frodo and Gandalf talking about the dangers of the ring and foreshadowing future events. 04:59.663 --> 05:05.632 [SPEAKER_00]: So the conversation from last week continues on, and the first thing for us as here is, how long have you known this? 05:06.052 --> 05:09.257 [SPEAKER_00]: And how much did Bilbo know, asking about the dangers of the ring? 05:09.757 --> 05:13.823 [SPEAKER_00]: Now notice that this question is exactly what the audience will want to know. 05:13.843 --> 05:17.288 [SPEAKER_00]: How long have you known that this is a terrible problem, Gandalf? 05:17.749 --> 05:19.892 [SPEAKER_00]: And how much did Bilbo know about this as well? 05:20.052 --> 05:23.477 [SPEAKER_00]: Because Tolkien knew that there was a potential plot hole here. 05:23.457 --> 05:25.621 [SPEAKER_00]: Gandalf is supposed to be wise. 05:25.741 --> 05:29.667 [SPEAKER_00]: He's supposed to be knowledgeable about the history of everything. 05:30.008 --> 05:37.159 [SPEAKER_00]: He's supposed to know about magical items and the Dark Lord and what's going on with even the smallest details in the world. 05:37.199 --> 05:39.683 [SPEAKER_00]: He seems to have some understanding of those things. 05:39.944 --> 05:49.279 [SPEAKER_00]: He doesn't always proclaim that he knows everything, but if there is a character that we've met from the Hobbit, that would have been able to look at the ring and what it did, 05:49.259 --> 05:57.295 [SPEAKER_00]: and suspect that it would be something absolutely terrible that does exactly those things, Gandalf's the guy. 05:57.427 --> 06:03.933 [SPEAKER_00]: So Tolkien has to explain to the audience how he wasn't more worried to begin with. 06:04.714 --> 06:06.575 [SPEAKER_00]: And so he comes up with some justifications. 06:06.976 --> 06:12.601 [SPEAKER_00]: First, he confirms two Frodo and to us that Bilbo knew no more than he told you. 06:12.881 --> 06:13.442 [SPEAKER_00]: I am sure. 06:13.982 --> 06:17.305 [SPEAKER_00]: So this isn't something that Bilbo was hiding from Frodo. 06:17.385 --> 06:22.650 [SPEAKER_00]: There's no sense in Bilbo's mind that this ring was anything more than just a magic trinket of some sort. 06:22.890 --> 06:23.971 [SPEAKER_00]: And again, off confirms this. 06:24.111 --> 06:27.214 [SPEAKER_00]: Bilbo was a good person. 06:27.194 --> 06:34.102 [SPEAKER_00]: purposely give Frodo something he knew would put him in danger, even though, as Gandalf says, I promise to look after you. 06:34.502 --> 06:37.005 [SPEAKER_00]: And Gandalf explains what the ring was to Bilbo. 06:37.085 --> 06:40.829 [SPEAKER_00]: He described it as very beautiful and it was very useful at need. 06:40.849 --> 06:44.914 [SPEAKER_00]: Now notice though, little details here, this is a plain gold ring. 06:45.074 --> 06:48.037 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure there are plain gold rings in the shire. 06:48.477 --> 06:49.899 [SPEAKER_00]: They're probably pretty common. 06:50.239 --> 06:57.167 [SPEAKER_00]: I would assume that many married couples also have plain gold rings that they wear. 06:57.147 --> 07:01.839 [SPEAKER_00]: that Bilbo finds this plain gold ring to be very beautiful. 07:02.039 --> 07:03.603 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not intricately decorated. 07:03.904 --> 07:05.087 [SPEAKER_00]: There are no gems in it. 07:05.929 --> 07:12.625 [SPEAKER_00]: It is simply a plain gold ring, and yet it seems a little bit extreme to say very beautiful here. 07:12.605 --> 07:17.215 [SPEAKER_00]: Gandalf also says that Bilbo thought if there was anything wrong, it was with himself. 07:17.596 --> 07:23.530 [SPEAKER_00]: Now you have to remember, he had grown up in a world that considered him to be odd. 07:24.071 --> 07:30.445 [SPEAKER_00]: And after he returned from his adventure, was very much labeled as being odd. 07:30.425 --> 07:41.020 [SPEAKER_00]: And so he had kind of a sense of, well, if there's anything strange going on, then that's just part of my personality, I guess, which I find interesting from the perspective of somebody who is neurodivergent. 07:41.380 --> 07:55.100 [SPEAKER_00]: You often, especially if you were diagnosed later on in life, will think, well, maybe I'm just a little weird, maybe I'm just a little odd, until you find out, no, I'm part of a group of people who just function in a very different sort of way. 07:55.280 --> 07:56.181 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not odd. 07:56.422 --> 07:58.204 [SPEAKER_00]: I just haven't found my people yet. 07:58.184 --> 08:19.855 [SPEAKER_00]: And that feels kind of like what's going on here and it feels to me like another hint that Tolkien genuinely understood that even though his generation wouldn't really have the language and knowledge that we have today in order to discuss that and I'm sure we will continue to discover more about the human mind and all of its intricacies, but anyway moving on, Gandalf does point out that Bilbo noticed something very odd. 08:19.835 --> 08:37.986 [SPEAKER_00]: Though he had found out that the thing needed looking after, it did not seem always of the same size or weight, it drank or expanded in an odd way, and might suddenly slip off a finger where it had been tight, as if it had a mind of its own, and he doesn't say that, but that seems to be what's being implied here. 08:38.567 --> 08:44.357 [SPEAKER_00]: Frodo responds, yes, he warned me of that in his last letter, so I've always kept it on its chain. 08:44.337 --> 08:50.944 [SPEAKER_00]: which also implies that Frodo hasn't been wearing it because it's harder to put on when it's on a chain, you would have to take it off the chain. 08:51.384 --> 09:08.742 [SPEAKER_00]: But also, I love this dynamic a little bit here that in some small way, Frodo has unknowingly made the ring a prisoner, which is exactly the thing that Salron would do with any of his enemies. 09:08.722 --> 09:09.744 [SPEAKER_00]: Interesting, right? 09:10.064 --> 09:14.050 [SPEAKER_00]: He's chained up a piece of sauron without even knowing it. 09:14.391 --> 09:17.015 [SPEAKER_00]: And this isn't really pressed in the text. 09:17.035 --> 09:21.502 [SPEAKER_00]: This isn't like a major theme or anything, but it does feel to me like it's worth noting. 09:21.863 --> 09:27.692 [SPEAKER_00]: Again, off here says very wise, but then he discusses another aspect of Bilbo, his long life. 09:27.672 --> 09:47.757 [SPEAKER_00]: And the fact that Bilbo never really connected this to the power of the ring, he always thought it was something that he did or part of his genetics, and it doesn't say genetics here, but he also knew that something else was weird as well, because he mentioned feeling restless and uneasy, thin and stretched like butter over too much bread, all of that. 09:47.737 --> 09:49.982 [SPEAKER_00]: Fredo asks, how long have you known all of this? 09:50.142 --> 09:52.867 [SPEAKER_00]: Again, trying to get to the answer to that question. 09:53.469 --> 10:02.887 [SPEAKER_00]: And Gambulf gives a really interesting response here, because being that he is wise, he understands the nuance of knowledge and language, and all of these things here. 10:02.907 --> 10:04.250 [SPEAKER_00]: I'll read what he responds. 10:04.310 --> 10:05.172 [SPEAKER_00]: He says, 10:05.152 --> 10:17.176 [SPEAKER_00]: Known said Gandalf, I have known much that only the wise no Frodo, but if you mean, quote, known about this ring, well, I still don't know, and that's a Taoist. 10:17.777 --> 10:20.483 [SPEAKER_00]: One might say, there is a last test to make. 10:20.943 --> 10:23.228 [SPEAKER_00]: Of course, we know that that's the fire test. 10:23.208 --> 10:25.031 [SPEAKER_00]: But I no longer doubt my guess. 10:25.511 --> 10:44.018 [SPEAKER_00]: Gandalf is wise, not just because he knows a lot of things, but because he understands that evidence is important, that belief should follow evidence, not the other way around, and what he's saying here is that he had suspicions. 10:43.998 --> 10:46.602 [SPEAKER_00]: but he didn't really know anything. 10:47.182 --> 10:56.595 [SPEAKER_00]: And it took time to gather that evidence to then build enough knowledge in order to change his beliefs. 10:57.096 --> 11:01.742 [SPEAKER_00]: Now he says that I no longer doubt my guess, but he still claims it as a guess. 11:02.043 --> 11:05.888 [SPEAKER_00]: This isn't yet knowledge until he has concrete proof. 11:05.868 --> 11:09.434 [SPEAKER_00]: and the concrete proof will be the fire test. 11:09.454 --> 11:13.241 [SPEAKER_00]: The end-off was a scientist in a world without science, if you think of it that way. 11:13.602 --> 11:17.448 [SPEAKER_00]: He's also interesting because he doesn't keep himself from guessing either. 11:17.889 --> 11:21.295 [SPEAKER_00]: He just doesn't claim to have knowledge that he hasn't yet earned. 11:21.275 --> 11:33.738 [SPEAKER_00]: So he can have both, he has his beliefs, he has his guesses, and he has his knowledge, but he understands that you need to keep those things separate until you gather enough information and evidence in order to support that claim. 11:33.919 --> 11:34.961 [SPEAKER_00]: Now why is that important? 11:35.081 --> 11:37.866 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, imagine the story with one detail swapped. 11:37.846 --> 11:40.290 [SPEAKER_00]: What if this was just a magical trinket? 11:40.570 --> 11:55.191 [SPEAKER_00]: This wasn't the one ring, and it just happened to have some odd magical properties, and yet Gandalf did not confirm that, and initiated everything else that's going to happen in the story based on a false belief. 11:55.211 --> 11:57.254 [SPEAKER_00]: Can you imagine the council of L-Runt? 11:57.274 --> 12:03.383 [SPEAKER_00]: Can you imagine trying to rally troops around this false belief about a magic ring that was discovered? 12:03.824 --> 12:06.908 [SPEAKER_00]: The story would end up in really weird places. 12:06.888 --> 12:10.033 [SPEAKER_00]: But let's just put all of that aside and just get to the end of the story. 12:10.514 --> 12:26.820 [SPEAKER_00]: Imagine Frodo and Sam actually discarding a magical trinket of a ring in Mount Doom risking their lives and then finding out somewhere later that that wasn't the one ring and that it all needed to happen again. 12:27.644 --> 12:28.846 [SPEAKER_00]: would be ridiculous, right? 12:29.386 --> 12:32.130 [SPEAKER_00]: That's why evidence confirming facts is important. 12:32.631 --> 12:33.732 [SPEAKER_00]: And Tolkien knew this. 12:34.153 --> 12:39.580 [SPEAKER_00]: So at this point in the story, Tolkien does a few things to kind of fill in the blanks for us as Hobbit readers. 12:40.041 --> 12:43.625 [SPEAKER_00]: He has Gandalf think back and he says, when did I first begin to guess? 12:44.206 --> 12:52.818 [SPEAKER_00]: And he thinks back to the white council that drove the dark power from Merkwood dark power being capitalized just before the Battle of Five Armies. 12:52.898 --> 12:55.221 [SPEAKER_00]: Of course, these are references 12:55.201 --> 12:57.464 [SPEAKER_00]: and that's when Bilbo found his ring. 12:58.146 --> 13:04.015 [SPEAKER_00]: And then he says, a shadow fell on my heart then, though I did not know yet what I feared. 13:04.495 --> 13:11.286 [SPEAKER_00]: I wondered often how gallum came by a great ring as plainly as it was, that at least was clear from the first. 13:11.586 --> 13:21.782 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so Gandalf is saying that he suspected that this wasn't just a magical trinket that this is one of the great rings, but he still hadn't pinned it on being the one ring. 13:21.762 --> 13:31.100 [SPEAKER_00]: And as we know, the other great rings are powerful, and they're important, but they are as sinister and dangerous as the one ring, especially without the one ring being found. 13:31.701 --> 13:39.676 [SPEAKER_00]: So, I can see why Gandalf wouldn't have necessarily taken dramatic action here, and again, he says later on that this wasn't even his place. 13:40.036 --> 13:44.665 [SPEAKER_00]: It wouldn't be his place to take something from Bilbo, that would be morally wrong. 13:44.645 --> 13:50.912 [SPEAKER_00]: Especially because if it was just another one of the great rings, he wasn't in any particular danger in that moment. 13:51.232 --> 13:56.958 [SPEAKER_00]: But then he goes on and he says, then I heard Bilbo's strange story of how he won in quotes it. 13:57.579 --> 13:58.600 [SPEAKER_00]: And I could not believe it. 13:59.161 --> 14:13.116 [SPEAKER_00]: When I at last got the truth out of him, I saw it once that he had been trying to put his claim to the ring beyond doubt, much like gallum with his 14:13.096 --> 14:14.458 [SPEAKER_00]: There is a parallel here. 14:14.959 --> 14:19.104 [SPEAKER_00]: The ring corrupts everybody in a very similar kind of way. 14:19.585 --> 14:32.242 [SPEAKER_00]: And interestingly, it kind of turns them into a narcissist, somebody who is willing to rewrite facts and truth about a situation in order to coincide with the version of reality that they want to be true. 14:32.502 --> 14:35.927 [SPEAKER_00]: So another little bit of armchair psychology there, but you can see it happen. 14:36.327 --> 14:39.812 [SPEAKER_00]: Golem justifies his ownership of it as a birthday present. 14:39.792 --> 14:51.447 [SPEAKER_00]: Bilbo does something very similar, Gandalf notices the pattern, and he even describes the ring as having an unwholesome power that set to work on its keeper at once, and this was his first real warning. 14:51.487 --> 15:00.518 [SPEAKER_00]: And then he says, you know, Bilbo started to get angry about it, there wasn't much else he could do without causing greater harm, and this is where he states that he had no real right to do so anyway. 15:00.498 --> 15:14.453 [SPEAKER_00]: And that might sound a little bit odd because if he assumed that this was a very powerful evil thing, then you could argue the fact that he has the right to do whatever he needs in order to protect all of the free people of Middle Earth. 15:15.234 --> 15:17.497 [SPEAKER_00]: But again, he wasn't 100% sure. 15:17.757 --> 15:19.139 [SPEAKER_00]: He simply had suspicions. 15:19.599 --> 15:30.471 [SPEAKER_00]: And as we've seen, Tolkien has confirmed to us that Gandalf needed to be sure before acting on this. 15:30.451 --> 15:39.239 [SPEAKER_00]: Even if this was the one ring, it was still hidden, it was with a hobbit, and hobbits were not garnering any attention, so there was a certain safety in that. 15:39.940 --> 15:43.283 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, the conversation then moves to Saruman. 15:43.743 --> 15:45.685 [SPEAKER_00]: And this is the first time that Saruman is brought up. 15:45.705 --> 15:47.987 [SPEAKER_00]: This is the first time that any other wizard is brought up at all. 15:48.507 --> 16:00.458 [SPEAKER_00]: Saruman the white, and Gandalf says that all he could do is watch and wait. 16:01.248 --> 16:06.394 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that this isn't circumstantial, this isn't the ring holding him back. 16:07.095 --> 16:16.867 [SPEAKER_00]: This is a greater benevolent power, because, as we know, spoilers if you haven't read the story or watched the movies, Saraman is not to be trusted. 16:17.287 --> 16:22.614 [SPEAKER_00]: And Fred Oest who he is, as he hasn't heard of him before, and Gandalf says, okay, maybe not. 16:22.874 --> 16:30.563 [SPEAKER_00]: Habits are, or were, no concern of his, yet he is great among the wise, he is the chief 16:30.543 --> 16:37.311 [SPEAKER_00]: Gandalf speaks with respect about him here, but that doesn't hold him back from being completely honest with Bilbo on some other points. 16:37.351 --> 16:43.559 [SPEAKER_00]: He says that his knowledge is deep, but his pride has grown with it, and he takes ill any meddling. 16:44.179 --> 16:48.164 [SPEAKER_00]: So Gandalf's already noticing the changes in Sarmon. 16:48.385 --> 16:55.453 [SPEAKER_00]: He explains that he has no interest in Hobbits, and as we know Gandalf is the only one of the wise who has any real interest in Hobbits. 16:55.433 --> 17:00.405 [SPEAKER_00]: But that, he knows more about the lore of Elven Rings, great and small. 17:00.646 --> 17:02.210 [SPEAKER_00]: And Gandalf drops a little nugget here. 17:02.250 --> 17:06.420 [SPEAKER_00]: He says he has long studied it seeking the lost secrets of their making. 17:07.302 --> 17:13.678 [SPEAKER_00]: Now you have to wonder, the secrets of their making, being out of academic curiosity, 17:13.658 --> 17:16.081 [SPEAKER_00]: or out of a pursuit of power. 17:16.382 --> 17:19.045 [SPEAKER_00]: And then we get some insight as to how the council went. 17:19.266 --> 17:21.308 [SPEAKER_00]: The debate about this when it was brought to the council. 17:21.348 --> 17:29.139 [SPEAKER_00]: It says, but when the rings were debated in the council, all that he would reveal to us of his ringlord hold against my fears. 17:29.600 --> 17:35.127 [SPEAKER_00]: So my doubt slept, but an easily, still I watched and I waited. 17:35.107 --> 17:41.216 [SPEAKER_00]: Was this Saraman just giving Gandalf the information or just kind of put him off the trail? 17:41.276 --> 17:44.701 [SPEAKER_00]: Was this something even more sinister than that? 17:44.781 --> 17:46.383 [SPEAKER_00]: Was he outright lying to him? 17:46.744 --> 17:51.190 [SPEAKER_00]: You can see the hints of this already in the story and we haven't even made it to Eisenguard. 17:51.530 --> 17:58.781 [SPEAKER_00]: And much like any of us, he was looking for any evidence he could get and was hoping that this wasn't as bad as it could possibly be. 17:58.801 --> 18:03.848 [SPEAKER_00]: He even explains that all seemed well with Bilbo in the years past. 18:03.828 --> 18:05.991 [SPEAKER_00]: And yet, they seem not to touch him. 18:06.232 --> 18:07.714 [SPEAKER_00]: He showed no sign of age. 18:08.536 --> 18:11.280 [SPEAKER_00]: And then Gandalf says, the shadow fell on me again. 18:11.320 --> 18:18.151 [SPEAKER_00]: But I said to myself, after all he comes of a long-lived family on his mother's side, there is time yet. 18:18.652 --> 18:19.313 [SPEAKER_00]: Wait. 18:19.333 --> 18:21.837 [SPEAKER_00]: And this to me feels very real. 18:21.817 --> 18:23.219 [SPEAKER_00]: from somebody like Gandalf. 18:23.559 --> 18:34.032 [SPEAKER_00]: How many times have we put off something that we didn't want or had hoped to not to be true by just holding on to the parts that confirm what we would want to be true rather than what is actually true? 18:34.052 --> 18:37.817 [SPEAKER_00]: It feels like Gandalf's still kind of wrestling with some of that in himself. 18:38.118 --> 18:41.682 [SPEAKER_00]: But then came a moment that absolutely sealed it for him. 18:41.662 --> 18:45.534 [SPEAKER_00]: He says, and I waited until that night when he left this house. 18:45.554 --> 18:53.038 [SPEAKER_00]: He said, and did things then that filled me with a fear that no words of saruman could delay. 18:53.609 --> 19:04.662 [SPEAKER_00]: As if the words of saramun were already like are still haunting his mind, kind of like worm tongue and failed in, kind of similar to that, right? 19:05.023 --> 19:09.308 [SPEAKER_00]: And this is the moment where Gandalf was like, okay, no, no, no, no, there is absolutely something wrong here. 19:09.728 --> 19:16.056 [SPEAKER_00]: He says at that moment that he knew something dark and deadly was at work and he spent most of the years since then looking into it. 19:16.036 --> 19:21.183 [SPEAKER_00]: And I love the turn in the conversation here because Frodo doesn't say, well, what else did you discover? 19:21.584 --> 19:24.448 [SPEAKER_00]: He says, there wasn't any permanent harm done. 19:24.488 --> 19:24.868 [SPEAKER_00]: Was there? 19:24.908 --> 19:26.731 [SPEAKER_00]: He's worried about Bilbo. 19:27.272 --> 19:31.097 [SPEAKER_00]: He asks if he'll get better with time and that he'll be able to rest in peace. 19:32.159 --> 19:33.921 [SPEAKER_00]: And Gandalf confirms this. 19:34.202 --> 19:36.345 [SPEAKER_00]: He says, he felt better at once. 19:36.725 --> 19:38.568 [SPEAKER_00]: And then he gives this a little bit of a lord up. 19:38.588 --> 19:45.958 [SPEAKER_00]: He says, but there is only one power in this world that knows all about the rings and 19:45.938 --> 19:51.325 [SPEAKER_00]: And as far as I know, there is no power in the world that knows all about Hobbits. 19:51.710 --> 19:59.600 [SPEAKER_00]: Showing that puppets are a mystery, but also that people like Sauron or enemies like Sauron or Sauruman don't know much about hobbits. 20:00.381 --> 20:07.710 [SPEAKER_00]: Among the wise, I am the only one that goes in for Hobbit lore, and I love the use of lore in the text here. 20:07.730 --> 20:10.193 [SPEAKER_00]: An obscure branch of knowledge, but full of surprises. 20:10.594 --> 20:15.139 [SPEAKER_00]: Soft as butter they can be, and yet sometimes as tough as old root trees. 20:15.620 --> 20:20.586 [SPEAKER_00]: In this moment, he's both explaining to us why Bilba will be okay, but why the hobbits 20:20.566 --> 20:26.555 [SPEAKER_00]: are the best types of people to bear the burden of the ring. 20:26.915 --> 20:28.478 [SPEAKER_00]: And then he just says it plainly. 20:28.498 --> 20:34.146 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it likely that someone would resist the ring far longer than most of the wise would believe. 20:34.667 --> 20:36.670 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think you need to worry about Bilbo. 20:37.010 --> 20:41.337 [SPEAKER_00]: Basically, Hobbits are way more resilient than anyone gives them credit for. 20:41.377 --> 20:43.300 [SPEAKER_00]: They are unique in this world. 20:43.921 --> 20:47.586 [SPEAKER_00]: As if they were put here for a reason, it's kind of what he's alluding to. 20:47.566 --> 20:53.799 [SPEAKER_00]: Kind of then explains that it might take a while for the influence to wear off, but he'll be okay. 20:53.859 --> 20:59.631 [SPEAKER_00]: Basically, now that he's farther away from it as long as he doesn't see it for a while, things should be okay. 20:59.751 --> 21:01.014 [SPEAKER_00]: He's going to bounce back. 21:01.535 --> 21:06.064 [SPEAKER_00]: And he may just continue on living the years of his life as if 21:06.044 --> 21:20.587 [SPEAKER_00]: Time didn't happen from the moment he got the ring between the time he gave up the ring, and then he reinforces the idea, and I think this is very important, that quote, he gave it up in the end of his own accord, an important point. 21:21.449 --> 21:28.440 [SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't taken from him, it wasn't something that he would feel stolen about or robbed the way that gallum does. 21:28.420 --> 21:33.991 [SPEAKER_00]: It's something he chose himself, with his own mind, with his own will. 21:34.412 --> 21:36.536 [SPEAKER_00]: He did something that no one else has ever done. 21:36.576 --> 21:43.009 [SPEAKER_00]: He gave it up, willfully on his own with his own power, and that is notable. 21:43.449 --> 21:46.415 [SPEAKER_00]: And then Gandalf turns the conversation to Frodo. 21:46.455 --> 21:49.922 [SPEAKER_00]: He says, it is for you that I feel responsible. 21:49.902 --> 22:07.067 [SPEAKER_00]: which makes sense because he suspects that something very, very dangerous, a night of more dangerous than anything else in Middle Earth, is now being held by Frodo who doesn't even really understand it at all, that he could be in danger of that or of even other more terrible things. 22:07.047 --> 22:09.130 [SPEAKER_00]: And Gandalf leans into this. 22:09.210 --> 22:15.019 [SPEAKER_00]: He says, it would be a grievous blow to the world if the dark power overcame the shire. 22:15.419 --> 22:26.035 [SPEAKER_00]: If all of your kind, jolly, stupid bulgers, hornblowers, boffins, brace curls, and the rest, not to mention the ridiculous bagginses, became enslaved. 22:26.015 --> 22:31.345 [SPEAKER_00]: And we know that this is exactly what happens at the very end of the trilogy. 22:31.365 --> 22:35.593 [SPEAKER_00]: The Hobbits and the Shire are ultimately not safe. 22:36.155 --> 22:41.104 [SPEAKER_00]: Now it's not Sauron who comes to enslave them, but Sauruman, who was already foreshadowed. 22:41.084 --> 22:45.849 [SPEAKER_00]: And then Fredo responds, he shutters and asks, why should we be, and why would he want such slaves? 22:46.090 --> 22:47.992 [SPEAKER_00]: But basically, implying, like, we're Hobbits. 22:48.052 --> 22:56.522 [SPEAKER_00]: We're not large men who can haul lumber and mine things for the Dark Lord or whatever, like, why would he want Hobbits? 22:57.082 --> 22:59.345 [SPEAKER_00]: And Gandalf explains a few things. 22:59.505 --> 23:09.977 [SPEAKER_00]: First of all, he says that up until this moment, Hither II, and he reinforces this, Hither II, Mark II, he has entirely overlooked the existence of Hobbits, talking about the Dark Lord. 23:10.700 --> 23:24.292 [SPEAKER_00]: But even though he has other more useful servants, he would not love something more than to take Hobbits who seem to have these merry, happy go lucky lives and make them miserable slaves. 23:24.894 --> 23:28.843 [SPEAKER_00]: Because there is such a thing as malice and revenge. 23:28.823 --> 23:35.437 [SPEAKER_00]: What Gandalf is saying here is that sometimes evil doesn't need a rational reason to do something. 23:35.697 --> 23:41.228 [SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't need hobbits to be his slaves to grow a bunch of pipe weed for him or something like this. 23:41.769 --> 23:44.976 [SPEAKER_00]: That's not what the Dark Lord ultimately cares about. 23:44.956 --> 23:47.341 [SPEAKER_00]: it's actually more sadistic than that. 23:48.062 --> 23:56.298 [SPEAKER_00]: It is evil, chaotic evil that just wants to see the world burn in the terms of Batman and the Joker. 23:56.678 --> 24:01.648 [SPEAKER_00]: And as insane as that is, there are people or powers, 24:01.628 --> 24:04.332 [SPEAKER_00]: in both of our worlds that are like this. 24:04.812 --> 24:23.738 [SPEAKER_00]: And a piece of this that isn't discussed right here that is super important is that to the good people of the world, the photos and Gandalfs and Bilbo's and Sam's, they can't understand that just as much as somebody like Sauron can't understand not being like that. 24:23.836 --> 24:26.662 [SPEAKER_00]: they assume everybody wants power. 24:27.283 --> 24:28.706 [SPEAKER_00]: Everybody is corruptible. 24:29.006 --> 24:39.006 [SPEAKER_00]: And that will play into the way the story plays out later, especially once Erragorn reveals himself to Sauron, Sauron's assumptions are that he wants power, just like Sauron would want it. 24:39.026 --> 24:44.697 [SPEAKER_00]: But Erragorn uses this to play Sauron and buy the Hobbit's more time at the end of the story. 24:44.896 --> 24:45.937 [SPEAKER_00]: But we'll get there eventually. 24:46.278 --> 24:47.900 [SPEAKER_00]: So today's section ends with this. 24:48.000 --> 24:50.143 [SPEAKER_00]: Frodo says, Revenge, Revenge for what? 24:50.304 --> 24:54.510 [SPEAKER_00]: I still don't understand what all this has to do with Bilbo and myself and our ring. 24:55.992 --> 24:59.116 [SPEAKER_00]: Gandalf responds, it has everything to do with it. 24:59.797 --> 25:02.741 [SPEAKER_00]: You do not know the real peril yet, but you shall. 25:03.682 --> 25:08.129 [SPEAKER_00]: I was not sure of it myself when I was last here, but the time has come to speak. 25:09.230 --> 25:10.532 [SPEAKER_00]: Give me the ring for a moment. 25:13.837 --> 25:42.713 [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes it's hard to stop and find good places to stop reading because of course the story just keeps getting better and better but we will get to the moment where they put it in the fire and what all of that means next episode I want to save enough time to really dig into that so I hope you're looking forward to it the same way I am and thank you for 25:42.693 --> 25:45.659 [SPEAKER_00]: and your support sharing this with friends and everybody else. 25:45.759 --> 25:49.046 [SPEAKER_00]: Also, welcome to our two newest patrons, Chris, H and Iventy. 25:49.487 --> 25:53.255 [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for joining us on the patreon patreon.com slash LOTR lorecast. 25:53.275 --> 25:54.417 [SPEAKER_00]: You can get ad free episodes. 25:54.677 --> 25:58.565 [SPEAKER_00]: But you can also get bonus episodes for basically every episode that's up there. 25:58.585 --> 26:01.471 [SPEAKER_00]: So if you're looking for more content, that is a great way to do it. 26:01.552 --> 26:03.756 [SPEAKER_00]: It also helps support me and keep the show going. 26:03.736 --> 26:08.482 [SPEAKER_00]: And this project would not have lasted this long if it wasn't for all of you, so thank you so very much. 26:08.903 --> 26:13.849 [SPEAKER_00]: Also have to shout out all of our VIP patrons, let's see if I can get through it without missing anybody up. 26:13.869 --> 26:27.567 [SPEAKER_00]: A full-crim David S. Daniel Knightweaver, Capena, Richard J. T. J. T. A. K. Musica Glover, Barney D. Asle Resul, Lori B. Norwegian Myr, Mason Weathertop, Jezor, Gimlia Brick, Divine Madman, Rosie Rosey, Morgoth for President Ginger Fury, 26:27.547 --> 26:29.290 [SPEAKER_00]: Who on is my hero? 26:29.330 --> 26:40.772 [SPEAKER_00]: Aldarin was right, a very old party snack, single-end looking for antlives, nor we genius, Bruce W. Chris H. Artemis, Kira C. Doss S. and Silverstar, thank you for your support. 26:41.193 --> 26:50.230 [SPEAKER_00]: And also, if you want to help out in other ways, leave a review or a comment, if you leave a five-star review on Apple podcast, I'll read it down on a future episode, wow, words are hard. 26:50.210 --> 26:52.015 [SPEAKER_00]: Also, you can comment on Spotify. 26:52.035 --> 26:54.000 [SPEAKER_00]: People like to leave comments on episodes on there. 26:54.320 --> 26:58.331 [SPEAKER_00]: If you have positive things to say or things to share, please do that or join us on the Discord. 26:58.671 --> 27:00.737 [SPEAKER_00]: It's always nice to see your responses there as well. 27:00.797 --> 27:02.641 [SPEAKER_00]: Alright, well you guys know how all this stuff works. 27:02.982 --> 27:06.852 [SPEAKER_00]: Also, you can just send me a note like Chris H. did. 27:06.832 --> 27:12.557 [SPEAKER_00]: Chris seems to have some issues to get a review to show up on Apple, but decided to just send me the review. 27:12.757 --> 27:23.947 [SPEAKER_00]: So Chris, as I've been listening for approximately six months and I absolutely love the content and the depth in the simplicity that you bring to Tolkien's work, I have loved it so much that I recently joined Patreon and became a VIP patron. 27:24.087 --> 27:31.934 [SPEAKER_00]: I have never supported a podcast like this before, but I appreciate your hard work and dedication to his work as well as the family friendly and clean content. 27:31.994 --> 27:36.838 [SPEAKER_00]: I do appreciate the lack of vulgarity. 27:36.818 --> 27:38.060 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much. 27:38.080 --> 27:39.242 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and I totally agree. 27:39.322 --> 27:53.663 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, first of all, I want this to be listenable to everyone, but I also believe that probably much like Tolkien that words have their appropriate times and uses and when you are doing something like a podcast wide-bring in vulgarity 27:53.643 --> 27:54.344 [SPEAKER_00]: or swearing. 27:54.404 --> 28:01.070 [SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't really make any sense, but you know, if you're in a dire situation, maybe those terms become very useful. 28:01.231 --> 28:02.212 [SPEAKER_00]: So there you go. 28:02.312 --> 28:02.952 [SPEAKER_00]: But thank you Chris. 28:02.992 --> 28:03.933 [SPEAKER_00]: I really do appreciate it. 28:04.374 --> 28:06.116 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for tuning in as usual. 28:06.556 --> 28:13.003 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to go knock out the final bonus episode of the whole section about the different villages and towns in the Shire. 28:13.383 --> 28:17.247 [SPEAKER_00]: And so if you're part of the patrons who listen to those, I'll see you on the other side. 28:17.707 --> 28:19.489 [SPEAKER_00]: Have a wonderful rest of your week. 28:19.509 --> 28:20.410 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'll see you next time. 28:23.258 --> 28:25.400 [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening to the Lord of the Rings lorecast. 28:26.021 --> 28:29.565 [SPEAKER_00]: If you'd like to learn more about other fantasy worlds, check out my other podcasts. 28:30.005 --> 28:34.310 [SPEAKER_00]: The Elder Scrolls lorecast, the Witcher lorecast, and more at robotsradio.net. 28:34.770 --> 28:36.612 [SPEAKER_00]: If you'd like to reach out, I'd love to hear from you. 28:37.113 --> 28:43.720 [SPEAKER_00]: Send me a note on Twitter at robots underscore radio, or join our amazing community on the robots radio discord. 28:44.121 --> 28:50.067 [SPEAKER_00]: There are links in the show notes, or just search robotsradio discord, or find the link on robotsradio.net. 28:50.087 --> 28:51.088 [SPEAKER_00]: I'll see you next time.