WEBVTT 00:00.267 --> 00:03.809 [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the Crypto101 podcast, presented by Gemini. 00:04.251 --> 00:06.042 [SPEAKER_00]: Your bridge to the future of money. 00:14.594 --> 00:16.496 [SPEAKER_01]: All right, everyone. 00:16.717 --> 00:19.941 [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome back to the crypto 101 podcast. 00:19.961 --> 00:27.090 [SPEAKER_01]: We hope everyone is having a fantastic day because no matter where you're coming in from in the world, you're certainly in the right place. 00:27.410 --> 00:32.156 [SPEAKER_01]: We've got another great podcast and store for all of you because today we are joined by Paul Play. 00:32.617 --> 00:35.100 [SPEAKER_01]: He is the CEO and co-founder of Edgewallet. 00:35.440 --> 00:37.783 [SPEAKER_01]: Paul, welcome and it's great to have you, man. 00:38.270 --> 00:41.035 [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, thanks so much for having me glad to be on Crypto 101 again. 00:41.055 --> 00:45.823 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's been a while, but I love what you guys have been doing as far as like the 101 title, right? 00:46.003 --> 00:51.252 [SPEAKER_00]: Getting people the basics of crypto on boarding hopefully that next generation of folks. 00:51.673 --> 01:02.151 [SPEAKER_01]: That is the goal over here is to bring in leaders and people from all over the not just the crypto space, but like anybody who's even interested or related or wants to get involved with the crypto space. 01:02.131 --> 01:19.411 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm trying to bring in some of those leaders and builders like yourself so that you guys, you know, the builders, the experts can say, hey, let's explain this stuff and all the different aspects and give everyone that 101 a crypto that they so much deserve and, you know, for the listeners out there, we are just talking right before this. 01:19.531 --> 01:24.677 [SPEAKER_01]: If you're not watching the video format of this podcast, you can always see it on YouTube. 01:24.777 --> 01:27.160 [SPEAKER_01]: So if you're coming in from 01:27.140 --> 01:28.963 [SPEAKER_01]: Apple podcasts or anywhere else. 01:29.484 --> 01:31.727 [SPEAKER_01]: I just had to admire Paul's hat here. 01:31.767 --> 01:50.295 [SPEAKER_01]: It said the anti-fiat crypto club and we were bantering a little bit before this and I was like oh man that's a really cool hat and it was some really good merch ideas so you know shout it to that and I thought it was a really cool name but a little bit of an icebreaker Paul for people who don't know Paul is a rock climber he loves rock climber and 01:50.275 --> 02:01.104 [SPEAKER_01]: and so my question for you to kick us off here was what's been harder your last rock climb or the last month of the crypto market as we've kind of kicked off a bumpy 2026. 02:01.304 --> 02:05.736 [SPEAKER_00]: It's been bumpy but I think the harder things actually were remembering my last rock climb. 02:05.716 --> 02:10.164 [SPEAKER_00]: So you say I'm a rock climber, I would call myself a former wannabe rock climber at this point. 02:10.264 --> 02:17.617 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it definitely had a significant overlap between me being a climber and I was actually that that was my career. 02:17.637 --> 02:20.402 [SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't a professional climber, but you know, I operated a climbing gym. 02:20.442 --> 02:24.148 [SPEAKER_00]: I did some got outdoor guiding and that overlap with crypto. 02:24.168 --> 02:30.880 [SPEAKER_00]: I actually took our team rock climbing on the day that we launched our first iteration of edge, which was actually called air bits. 02:30.860 --> 02:34.086 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, we launched it in Vegas in 2014. 02:34.326 --> 02:39.194 [SPEAKER_00]: Go way back, you know, and we took them all in a rock climb in Red Rocks in Vegas. 02:39.936 --> 02:40.016 [SPEAKER_00]: Wow. 02:40.036 --> 02:44.043 [SPEAKER_00]: But since then, it's been like my climbing frequency has gone downhill. 02:44.624 --> 02:48.210 [SPEAKER_00]: I have a fingerboard at home that I'll use on occasion, and that's about it. 02:48.190 --> 02:52.817 [SPEAKER_00]: But if I had to think of my absolute hardest climb that I did, that was definitely harder than the past month. 02:53.578 --> 02:57.163 [SPEAKER_00]: The past month, especially since it's been in crypto since 2014, don't be wrong. 02:57.183 --> 02:58.384 [SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't an easy month. 02:58.785 --> 02:59.005 [SPEAKER_00]: Right? 02:59.386 --> 03:00.087 [SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't easy at all. 03:00.127 --> 03:04.092 [SPEAKER_00]: You have to kind of manage funds that you hold and crypto versus not. 03:04.112 --> 03:06.336 [SPEAKER_00]: Especially as a company, we earn all our revenue and crypto. 03:06.356 --> 03:07.397 [SPEAKER_00]: We pay everybody. 03:07.377 --> 03:12.084 [SPEAKER_00]: in crypto, and when I say crypto, it's like 90% Bitcoin. 03:12.845 --> 03:16.070 [SPEAKER_00]: And Bitcoin, though, not just USDC, I barely call that crypto. 03:16.510 --> 03:18.193 [SPEAKER_00]: To me, that's a payment method for Fiat. 03:18.673 --> 03:21.698 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a better payment method for Fiat, but it's still payment method for Fiat. 03:22.479 --> 03:32.153 [SPEAKER_00]: But when you're earning Bitcoin and you're paying people in Bitcoin, that means it's actually really inconvenient to hold something more stable than Bitcoin. 03:32.133 --> 03:35.718 [SPEAKER_00]: because like you'd have to earn your money, then convert it over and just like more stable. 03:35.738 --> 03:39.885 [SPEAKER_00]: Then when you got to pay people, you then got to go convert it out back into Bitcoin. 03:40.345 --> 03:50.040 [SPEAKER_00]: So, we're, it's a probably more tied to the price of crypto than most of the companies for better and worse, right, when markets down. 03:50.020 --> 03:51.642 [SPEAKER_00]: All right, it affects us and markets up. 03:52.484 --> 03:56.089 [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, over time, I mean, you think of it as almost a dollar cost averaging, right? 03:56.570 --> 04:01.557 [SPEAKER_00]: Overall, I think we've, it's been in our positive, but it could be tough on once that you mentioned. 04:01.577 --> 04:15.177 [SPEAKER_00]: But definitely not as hard as my hardest climb where, you know, I've taken, in climbing terms, like 40 foot whippers falling off onto my gear, and, you know, just barely not hitting the ground, but, uh, those are some hard climbs. 04:15.777 --> 04:15.878 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 04:15.898 --> 04:17.580 [SPEAKER_00]: Last month, uh, 04:17.560 --> 04:19.203 [SPEAKER_00]: Walk in the park and compare some. 04:19.223 --> 04:19.925 [SPEAKER_00]: It's still a fun. 04:21.187 --> 04:22.750 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I've tried it a few times. 04:22.951 --> 04:37.881 [SPEAKER_01]: I can't brag that I was particularly good at it But something that I think both of us have gotten good at is weathering these these crypto winners and man since 2014 you've been through significantly worse ones than whatever we're experiencing now 04:37.861 --> 04:45.529 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we're talking 60, 70, 80 plus percent drawdowns on Bitcoin on some of these moves over a much more extended periods of time. 04:45.589 --> 04:48.432 [SPEAKER_01]: You've seen collapses and blow ups and all sorts of other things. 04:49.213 --> 05:02.788 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's, you know, one of the big things about the crypto market right now is, you know, looking back, just a friendly reminder to everyone is like, hey, the crypto market has been through substantially worse, especially once you look at it from a fundamental kind of 05:02.768 --> 05:06.191 [SPEAKER_01]: bird's eye view and you say, well, the fundamentals here really aren't that bad. 05:06.732 --> 05:13.699 [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, there's probably one of the better fundamental spots that it's been in here in in recent years and you see a lot of positive developments over there. 05:13.779 --> 05:18.844 [SPEAKER_01]: But before we even get into Edge Wallet, Paul, I mean, you used to work at Nvidia. 05:18.904 --> 05:24.570 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you've since moved on to doing some other things and one of those things was co-founding Edge Wallet. 05:25.030 --> 05:29.535 [SPEAKER_01]: Just walk us through that journey because when people look at the past, 05:29.515 --> 05:45.550 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, decade two decades about there's like man a couple of really big things came up and like one of the two biggest things that people always like to compare is like Oh well, how did it do versus and video and how did it do against Bitcoin and you're like well at my hands in both now 05:46.036 --> 05:56.453 [SPEAKER_00]: I'll say this, for someone that both worked at Nvidia and got in the Bitcoin, I'm not as financially sound as I should be by like a hundred X. 05:57.795 --> 06:08.914 [SPEAKER_00]: Number one, when I left Nvidia, obviously it was a much smaller company, it's still successful, public company and whatnot, and I definitely had some gains from having worked there, but I left not because I just wanted to do something else. 06:09.334 --> 06:12.820 [SPEAKER_00]: I love what I did there at the time, it was graphics, it was the core focus. 06:12.800 --> 06:17.032 [SPEAKER_00]: I left at the very, very start of using GPUs for computing. 06:17.473 --> 06:25.375 [SPEAKER_00]: We called it GP GPU general purpose GPU, which was an essence used for machine learning primarily, you know, but it was just. 06:25.405 --> 06:29.549 [SPEAKER_00]: There's just another CPU, but running on GPU and there's thousands of cores full of tiny cores. 06:30.790 --> 06:32.432 [SPEAKER_00]: But I love graphics, I love games. 06:32.792 --> 06:38.138 [SPEAKER_00]: I love the challenge of making beautiful imagery on a computer and displaying that. 06:38.278 --> 06:40.320 [SPEAKER_00]: So I love that actually for health reasons. 06:40.560 --> 06:48.008 [SPEAKER_00]: I broke down working in front of a computer, repetitive strain, your back, your neck, everything, kind of broke down, and that's why I had left. 06:48.849 --> 06:53.033 [SPEAKER_00]: And ironically, it's that departure 06:53.013 --> 06:55.036 [SPEAKER_00]: kind of, I won't use the word woke. 06:55.758 --> 06:58.462 [SPEAKER_00]: Help me awaken to the reality of our world. 06:59.464 --> 07:05.373 [SPEAKER_00]: When you start to look for healthcare for chronic issues, you start to see how broken that system is. 07:05.914 --> 07:13.587 [SPEAKER_00]: And then you start to see the grander system of both government and big institution and how broken that is very financially motivated to be very broken. 07:13.567 --> 07:16.012 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and so I worked in a completely different industry, non-tech. 07:16.032 --> 07:16.874 [SPEAKER_00]: That's why I got into climbing. 07:16.954 --> 07:18.137 [SPEAKER_00]: Climbing was actually my savior. 07:18.177 --> 07:25.172 [SPEAKER_00]: It was my physical therapy, um, for a lot of the, the things that, the ailments, the, you know, joint issues and whatnot. 07:25.633 --> 07:34.191 [SPEAKER_00]: So climbing helped me through that, um, it all introduced me to a lot of people that thought differently about health and wellness, you know, then your traditional Western medicine. 07:34.171 --> 07:48.688 [SPEAKER_00]: So this could be an incredibly long story, but fast forward, I discovered Bitcoin and I'm like, wow, this is this also taught me that hey, the whole financial system is just as corrupt as health, you know, health wellness, pharma and whatnot. 07:49.029 --> 07:50.593 [SPEAKER_00]: All just as corrupt. 07:50.573 --> 07:55.159 [SPEAKER_00]: But this is the one rug pool that we have an opportunity to pull on, right? 07:55.179 --> 07:58.504 [SPEAKER_00]: Or we can actually sweep the feet out from underneath larger establishment. 07:58.925 --> 08:11.442 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I went full dive into Bitcoin, into crypto, you know, I sunk what I had left into it, you know, which I drained everything I had from Nvidia because I was unemployed for a good amount of time. 08:11.763 --> 08:12.424 [SPEAKER_00]: I couldn't work. 08:12.444 --> 08:14.927 [SPEAKER_00]: My hand made a body was wrecked. 08:14.907 --> 08:22.538 [SPEAKER_00]: So, I could, I think I calculated out bin close to, you know, a hundred billion air by now. 08:23.399 --> 08:31.351 [SPEAKER_00]: If I had been able to keep some of my shares, but maybe close to like maybe 50 or so. 08:31.992 --> 08:35.717 [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, you know, I couldn't, like I physically couldn't. 08:35.758 --> 08:44.290 [SPEAKER_00]: I had to sell and unload and I was at least grateful that I had money to whether the storm of many years of being unemployed. 08:44.270 --> 08:47.915 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and what I had left I put into Bitcoin, but I was so passionate about it. 08:47.955 --> 09:07.324 [SPEAKER_00]: Like I cared less about the money and I cared more about building in the space that's disruptive to a fault that I sunk everything I had into building In this ecosystem and doing meetups and sponsoring meetups and it was sicky my time into that and of course building this company, you know, original air, but it's now edge. 09:07.304 --> 09:16.596 [SPEAKER_00]: And so, I think the principle in me has guided my path, and that principle in me has just regarded the financial aspect of that path. 09:17.137 --> 09:26.529 [SPEAKER_00]: And mainly, as soon as I went full tilt into crypto and founded a company, I ended up having blinders on into building that I forget about the market. 09:27.810 --> 09:33.177 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, there's like, oh shoot, yeah, you know, there's, when I say about forget the market, there's all the opportunities missed. 09:33.629 --> 09:39.676 [SPEAKER_00]: All right, as far as new assets, new chains, that actually, they're not just new chains just to be a new chain. 09:39.776 --> 09:44.841 [SPEAKER_00]: I just regarded the entire space of Bitcoin for Work's Back in 2015, where everything was just a Forker Bitcoin. 09:45.462 --> 09:47.665 [SPEAKER_00]: But what's the truly compelling came out? 09:47.745 --> 09:49.927 [SPEAKER_00]: Like Ethereum was actually a very compelling technology. 09:49.987 --> 09:52.190 [SPEAKER_00]: My co-founder was in the Ethereum ICO. 09:52.350 --> 09:55.053 [SPEAKER_00]: He bought at the ICO, very small amount, but it did well. 09:55.433 --> 09:57.576 [SPEAKER_00]: And I remember saying myself, yeah, I wanna get some of that. 09:57.656 --> 09:58.236 [SPEAKER_00]: That makes sense. 09:58.397 --> 10:00.479 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, programmable Bitcoin, all right. 10:00.499 --> 10:02.421 [SPEAKER_00]: And then I was just too busy with work. 10:02.401 --> 10:06.231 [SPEAKER_00]: and I forgot about it, but of course we eventually supported it when you was compelling. 10:07.093 --> 10:17.862 [SPEAKER_00]: So my journey has been, yeah, I think a very principal journey to a fault in hell, but it's just the way I operate and I'll win or lose on that hill. 10:18.061 --> 10:26.253 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and it's it's so easy to look back on it in hindsight and be like, Oh, well, the pick was so obvious, and I could have just held and that's all I had to do. 10:26.313 --> 10:29.598 [SPEAKER_01]: But in reality, that's it's never that easy. 10:29.618 --> 10:41.054 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we just had on one of the earliest Bitcoin developers, you know, he was working on this in 2010 and everything and he's like, man, I thought I made the best investment of my life. 10:41.114 --> 10:42.516 [SPEAKER_01]: I was getting in this thing at a few. 10:42.496 --> 10:45.623 [SPEAKER_01]: If you dollar is it goes up to a couple hundred bucks. 10:46.064 --> 10:53.721 [SPEAKER_01]: He's like I'm making hundreds and thousands of percent gains on these things and then you're going wow those are really good trade, you know 10:53.988 --> 10:55.830 [SPEAKER_01]: Now I can take some profits on it. 10:56.230 --> 11:00.535 [SPEAKER_01]: No one ever expects that it'll go from a few cents if you boxed to $100,000. 11:00.855 --> 11:04.098 [SPEAKER_01]: And the same thing you could be said about in video. 11:04.118 --> 11:17.832 [SPEAKER_01]: You could say, while this thing's seen massive success or other things come up in life, and it's so much easier to look back on it and be like, oh, and so listeners sometimes try to put themselves in our shoes and they look back at it and they say, oh, well, oh, so obvious. 11:17.873 --> 11:22.257 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, well, you know, wasn't quite as easy as people make it out to be. 11:22.237 --> 11:38.178 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, but here we are, I mean, obviously crypto, I think has surpassed and scaled greater than everyone's expectation than most people's expectations, meaning that like everyone, like a lot of us thought it was going to be big, but the rate at which it has blown up. 11:38.659 --> 11:42.084 [SPEAKER_01]: And now you see it being talked about at the World Economic Forum. 11:42.124 --> 11:44.787 [SPEAKER_01]: You see presidents and leaders of countries talking about it. 11:44.807 --> 11:51.957 [SPEAKER_01]: You see the biggest asset managers and banks, you know, bringing it up and it's just like so prevalent. 11:52.645 --> 11:53.306 [SPEAKER_00]: It's prevalent. 11:53.366 --> 12:00.996 [SPEAKER_00]: If you don't mind me like taking a contrarian view, I think it's failed on on on most of the facets that I looked for. 12:01.036 --> 12:18.720 [SPEAKER_00]: And I remember I think about four or six years ago, I mentioned that like Bitcoin has about eight years to achieve success by a definite success that I think is different than what it has today. 12:19.321 --> 12:21.724 [SPEAKER_00]: Otherwise, it will fail. 12:21.890 --> 12:28.719 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and that theory was around it being actually used as a currency. 12:30.201 --> 12:37.510 [SPEAKER_00]: Uh-huh, because if it isn't used as a currency, um, many other things can surpass its uses of currency. 12:37.570 --> 12:44.539 [SPEAKER_00]: And it can't be competitive as pure store value for much longer than approximately eight years is what I was predicting. 12:45.380 --> 12:49.365 [SPEAKER_00]: Right, from about, I think six years ago, so I got a couple of years. 12:49.345 --> 12:56.737 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and I think we're starting to see that now, where the growth in Bitcoin has slowed down. 12:56.777 --> 13:00.604 [SPEAKER_00]: And, and I think crypto is a whole, it's still a very compelling industry, right? 13:00.784 --> 13:03.288 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, you know, you guys are crypto 101 and not Bitcoin 101. 13:03.929 --> 13:10.140 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, but the problem is the, the whole crypto industry tends to, to follow Bitcoin for now, because it's, it's the Godfather. 13:11.141 --> 13:13.986 [SPEAKER_00]: And until that, 13:15.400 --> 13:28.118 [SPEAKER_00]: that dislodges, or it doesn't follow Bitcoin, and maybe because they realize a cable of Bitcoin is just this one thing, but we have tremendous amount of value in this other thing, which is the utility side, the defy side, trading, hedging, prediction markets, blah, blah. 13:29.280 --> 13:31.142 [SPEAKER_00]: And we don't just kind of follow the trend of Bitcoin. 13:31.984 --> 13:35.268 [SPEAKER_00]: Until that happens, it's kind of taking down the rest of the market. 13:35.969 --> 13:40.075 [SPEAKER_00]: And that narrative of store of value, I've always said, is not good enough. 13:40.055 --> 13:40.355 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 13:40.375 --> 13:41.617 [SPEAKER_00]: If that's all it is, we've got gold. 13:41.637 --> 13:43.579 [SPEAKER_00]: We've got silver and gold silver had their moment. 13:43.719 --> 13:45.421 [SPEAKER_00]: And they're having their moment right now. 13:46.482 --> 13:51.488 [SPEAKER_00]: And so fundamentally that utility is what Bitcoin has above gold and silver. 13:51.768 --> 13:56.794 [SPEAKER_00]: And we have an exercise that so it was us talking about at the World Economic Forum with banks and governments whatnot. 13:57.976 --> 14:05.404 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm starting to look back as it being one of the biggest double-edged swords of adoption. 14:05.485 --> 14:09.769 [SPEAKER_00]: because yeah, well, now it's, everybody's heard of it, right? 14:09.789 --> 14:17.317 [SPEAKER_00]: There's nothing new anymore about it, but there's also a lack of excitement about it because, well, it's just the banks and the governments again. 14:17.357 --> 14:33.113 [SPEAKER_00]: And all of the, the OGs, the Cypher Punks, that care about things like privacy and, you know, a quality, not a quality hit that word, but, you know, equal access to a financial ecosystem, financial freedom, 14:33.177 --> 14:39.408 [SPEAKER_00]: those values are long gone from that narrative of government and bank adoption. 14:39.809 --> 14:40.751 [SPEAKER_00]: So how do you bring those back? 14:40.771 --> 14:42.374 [SPEAKER_00]: Because the two can coexist, right? 14:42.814 --> 14:47.002 [SPEAKER_00]: Banks can go and hold Bitcoin for people that want to hold it in a hedge fund or an ETF or whatnot. 14:47.403 --> 14:54.696 [SPEAKER_00]: But we can also be using it in its utilitarian sense for financial freedom, transactional freedom. 14:54.676 --> 15:05.895 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, so that balance is just offkill, you know, and I'm a Libra by sign, you know, so to me, like things have to be in balance and it's way to how off balance right now, um, I'm still pro. 15:05.995 --> 15:07.898 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm still a bull on this, this oligosystem. 15:08.379 --> 15:12.145 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't have a good clear picture of how to get back in balance though. 15:12.125 --> 15:30.336 [SPEAKER_01]: So do you think that the way forward for Bitcoin should be more focused on making it more like a currency and getting it used in that kind of use case as opposed to taking, let's look at the institutional side and push it that way? 15:30.316 --> 15:30.957 [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely. 15:31.237 --> 15:37.043 [SPEAKER_00]: So, I'm not into the regulation stuff like, you know, genius act, clarity bill, all that stuff. 15:37.723 --> 16:00.205 [SPEAKER_00]: But if there's any one thing I would push for, would be like a diminimous exemption, so we can actually spend Bitcoin and not have to deal with, yeah, buy coffee and have to deal with capital gains, capital losses, you know, and if another country in theory, since there isn't other country that has adopted Bitcoin as their actual official currency, 16:00.185 --> 16:04.670 [SPEAKER_00]: It should fall under that same diminished exemption that we have for like the euro. 16:05.091 --> 16:07.874 [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, the peso in the Canadian dollar. 16:07.954 --> 16:08.355 [SPEAKER_00]: It should. 16:09.296 --> 16:15.123 [SPEAKER_00]: If it can get to that, well, that can alleviate the concerns that a lot of people have of having to track for taxes. 16:15.544 --> 16:19.148 [SPEAKER_00]: Personally, I don't think that is a big concern given there's such great tax offer out there now. 16:19.629 --> 16:27.458 [SPEAKER_00]: Where, all right, you plug in the transaction and when you acquired and you sold, and it'll just create a form and says this is your gain or loss. 16:27.438 --> 16:49.952 [SPEAKER_00]: right you don't actually have to do the math and let's be real that math so long as like the app that you use to make the transactions can export you know the time you made the transaction actually the time in the amount of Bitcoin that you made the transaction this is literally like seventh grade algebra math to then figure out what you're getting lost yeah 16:49.932 --> 16:50.874 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not hard math. 16:50.934 --> 16:56.325 [SPEAKER_00]: It's just a lot of data, you know, if you're doing a lot of transactions, it's a lot of data, but you just do the math and boom, there's your gain and loss. 16:56.946 --> 17:00.213 [SPEAKER_00]: And conceptually, it's pain in the ass, but that's what software does for us. 17:00.273 --> 17:01.656 [SPEAKER_00]: It makes conceptually hard things easy. 17:02.177 --> 17:08.329 [SPEAKER_00]: That would be the only thing I'd push for, but then yes, I think we actually need adoption as a currency, but then also things like DeFi. 17:08.512 --> 17:13.844 [SPEAKER_00]: Right, make it where Bitcoin, the chain itself, becomes useful in the defy ecosystem. 17:14.265 --> 17:20.880 [SPEAKER_00]: No, like the layer two's have partially launched, but haven't quite been pushed, especially not by the Bitcoin Maxis. 17:20.941 --> 17:24.208 [SPEAKER_00]: They don't push any of the defy layers of Bitcoin. 17:24.509 --> 17:25.570 [SPEAKER_01]: That is true. 17:25.610 --> 17:30.457 [SPEAKER_01]: It's funny that you bring this up because I was just talking to a buddy last week about this. 17:31.278 --> 17:38.106 [SPEAKER_01]: And he was saying Bitcoin isn't being used as a currency and it'll never work as a currency and all these things like that. 17:38.207 --> 17:40.029 [SPEAKER_01]: We went back and forth on a little debate. 17:40.590 --> 17:42.572 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, well, what do you mean it's not used? 17:42.732 --> 17:44.074 [SPEAKER_01]: He's like, well, no one uses it. 17:44.134 --> 17:47.158 [SPEAKER_01]: It's never, you know, this and that just doesn't compare to anything else. 17:47.138 --> 17:55.032 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's funny because I had a staff that I read earlier that week and it was doing a 2025 total transaction volume report. 17:55.412 --> 17:58.418 [SPEAKER_01]: And it compared Visa, MasterCard, and Bitcoin. 17:59.199 --> 18:04.929 [SPEAKER_01]: MasterCard did about 9.7 trillion in total dollar transactions. 18:04.949 --> 18:08.455 [SPEAKER_01]: Visa did about $16 trillion in transactions. 18:08.435 --> 18:15.748 [SPEAKER_01]: Bitcoin was nearly more than both of them combined at around $25 trillion in total dollars transacted. 18:16.149 --> 18:18.153 [SPEAKER_01]: And I said, so what are we measuring value here, Rob? 18:18.173 --> 18:20.818 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, if you're talking about transactions, could it be better, could it be bigger? 18:20.958 --> 18:21.479 [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely. 18:21.880 --> 18:30.375 [SPEAKER_01]: But when you're looking at almost the same amount than Visa and MasterCard combined and bigger than either one individually, I was like, you know, it's it's 18:30.355 --> 18:35.783 [SPEAKER_01]: being used to some sense and he goes, well, the thing that I have a gripe about is the volatility. 18:36.184 --> 18:44.317 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, why would we move towards a system like that, given how big and volatile Bitcoin has been as heavily? 18:45.098 --> 18:46.640 [SPEAKER_01]: And we went back and forth on that. 18:46.660 --> 18:56.616 [SPEAKER_01]: But that's like one of the most common, I guess, kickbacks that I hear from people that say, well, I don't want it to be used as a currency because of the volatility, what do you say to those people? 18:57.338 --> 19:19.026 [SPEAKER_00]: So when you say don't want to be used as a currency, the one piece that a lot of other currencies snagged from Bitcoin is being able to use something that is more stable than Bitcoin, but on the chain of Bitcoin, where you now need Bitcoin as like the gas token, the way Ethereum is used as the gas token, and that it inherently has value from that point of view. 19:19.006 --> 19:27.433 [SPEAKER_00]: So you can mix and match it, so utility, the utility of for some people that I want to hold Bitcoin because I believe that it will go up in value and we'll get adopted. 19:27.974 --> 19:30.703 [SPEAKER_00]: And if I hold it, it's actually easier for me to transact it up. 19:31.308 --> 19:49.232 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and then for other people to utility is, oh, I can use the chain with some programmability to be able to hold, you know, hopefully not a government bank back stablecoin, but maybe an algorithmic stablecoin like die and be able to transact that or and especially be able to transact that privately. 19:49.617 --> 19:57.810 [SPEAKER_00]: And so for some people, the volatility won't matter as much if I'm transacting privately because I can't do that with a traditional financial system and I cannot do that with basic Bitcoin. 19:58.471 --> 20:01.116 [SPEAKER_00]: So these are the layers that it didn't have. 20:01.216 --> 20:10.291 [SPEAKER_00]: And you're right, if it's from the viewpoint of just raw pure L1 Bitcoin, you don't really have a huge competitive advantage because of its volatility. 20:10.892 --> 20:14.157 [SPEAKER_00]: But you know what I also tell them is guess what actually gives something stability. 20:15.200 --> 20:18.045 [SPEAKER_00]: is use is actual use. 20:18.486 --> 20:27.942 [SPEAKER_00]: And so if you look at the stability of the dollar and what causes it to become stable, it's what are long-term contracts denoted in dollars. 20:28.924 --> 20:31.709 [SPEAKER_00]: There are 30-year contracts denoted in the dollar. 20:32.530 --> 20:34.153 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, one of those are. 20:34.876 --> 20:35.517 [SPEAKER_00]: mortgage. 20:36.900 --> 20:39.664 [SPEAKER_00]: So mortgage is a 30 year contract that's denoted in the dollar. 20:41.107 --> 20:45.174 [SPEAKER_00]: We have roughly 15 minute contracts denoted in Bitcoin. 20:45.875 --> 20:51.606 [SPEAKER_00]: And that is basically a payment invoice that you might see when you buy something with a bit pay. 20:52.086 --> 20:54.150 [SPEAKER_00]: They'll lock the rate for 15 minutes. 20:55.109 --> 20:57.913 [SPEAKER_00]: And so they're going to have to hedge against that, right? 20:57.933 --> 21:01.317 [SPEAKER_00]: Making sure that, okay, if the price goes up and down, they're going to be okay. 21:01.518 --> 21:07.325 [SPEAKER_00]: So that actually, that hedging to keep the price, to keep it stable for them, helps stabilize the price. 21:08.267 --> 21:13.894 [SPEAKER_00]: You grow that further, an hour contract, a day contract, a month contract, and Bitcoin. 21:13.874 --> 21:30.543 [SPEAKER_00]: And if you're starting to quote, even a shorter term amounts that aren't 30 years, that starts to stabilize the price because both sides of the, both sides of the equation want to, want to have that price stable to be able to predict what they owe and what they're going to receive. 21:31.024 --> 21:34.991 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I know I'm going to owe, I want to make sure that I can earn enough money to be able to pay that thing I owe. 21:35.011 --> 21:36.133 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I'm going to receive this amount. 21:36.153 --> 21:38.717 [SPEAKER_00]: I want to make sure that that amount is usable in the future as well. 21:39.271 --> 21:47.563 [SPEAKER_00]: So until you start adopting that, you're not going to get really good stability and know that nothing is truly stable. 21:47.623 --> 21:48.845 [SPEAKER_00]: Like the dollar is not truly stable. 21:48.885 --> 21:50.407 [SPEAKER_00]: We all thought gold was stable. 21:50.508 --> 21:52.751 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the crash by like 20, 30% in a day. 21:53.612 --> 21:55.275 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's relative to the dollar. 21:55.695 --> 21:57.298 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, see defined dollar stability. 21:57.999 --> 22:03.326 [SPEAKER_00]: And so yes, when you're, when you're peg of the dollar and you've only grown up in a dollar based economy, it seems pretty darn stable. 22:03.807 --> 22:05.710 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, and if you ought to stable until it's not. 22:05.770 --> 22:05.970 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 22:06.311 --> 22:07.793 [SPEAKER_00]: And when it's not, it, 22:07.773 --> 22:10.816 [SPEAKER_00]: is only stable downward, unstable downward. 22:10.976 --> 22:19.365 [SPEAKER_00]: The thing, fiat is stable downward until it's not, and when it's not, it becomes unstable downward, whereas everything else is unstable in both directions. 22:19.965 --> 22:22.368 [SPEAKER_00]: So pick your poison in that regard. 22:22.408 --> 22:36.902 [SPEAKER_00]: But yes, utility will give its stability out, kind of give one example of what has been relatively stable, are the coins that are used for utility, i.e. 22:37.743 --> 22:42.650 [SPEAKER_00]: All right, it's been like, you know, when I say hugely stable, a few out personal say that's crazy. 22:43.031 --> 22:47.517 [SPEAKER_00]: Like 150 to 300 peak 400 dollars ish, right? 22:47.537 --> 22:49.941 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, sure, hit almost 700, that's kind of a rarity. 22:50.541 --> 22:55.949 [SPEAKER_00]: But since 2018, 150 to 250 has basically been its range. 22:56.710 --> 22:58.553 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, in the crypto landscape, 22:58.533 --> 23:02.076 [SPEAKER_00]: That is solid as a rock, relative to crypto as a whole. 23:02.657 --> 23:10.424 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not great as an investment unless you're just trading it between this window, but it's relatively stable for payments. 23:10.944 --> 23:15.789 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and when you lose that other countries inflation and stuff as well. 23:15.829 --> 23:28.540 [SPEAKER_01]: That this is going to add another level of complexity to it, but it's so easy to judge like the highest tier of fiat standards, which one could argue is the dollar and say, oh, well, we're comparing it against this. 23:28.520 --> 23:45.122 [SPEAKER_01]: to other people's native beards, where it's not as good, where it is significantly more inflationary, where it is equally, if not more volatile, I mean, you talk about all a Bitcoin was down 10% last year, or it was double digit moves here and there. 23:45.783 --> 23:50.469 [SPEAKER_01]: Guys, that can be a normal thing for some of these other fiat countries that are inflating at rapid rates. 23:50.890 --> 23:56.097 [SPEAKER_00]: So if there's a month, that's like every month for some of them. 23:56.077 --> 24:20.785 [SPEAKER_01]: spot on and so you know using perspective here is is important and there are so many work rounds and then that's what you know I think the big takeaway from this is Paul is that like hey there are options there are work rounds and this stuff's happening would you still hold the original thesis that you had true of saying hey we have this time horizon to start doing these things if not there could be issues like where do you stand all that in the current current 24:21.575 --> 24:29.006 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think we will still have, and we are starting to see those issues, so I think those issues will continue until Bitcoin achieves utility. 24:29.106 --> 24:36.998 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm already seeing and hearing a lot of the original Bitcoin, I don't call Maxis, but people promoted Bitcoin very heavily. 24:37.038 --> 24:44.629 [SPEAKER_00]: It's supported Bitcoin very heavily backing out because of its defocus on utility. 24:44.609 --> 24:47.955 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, still being pro crypto is a whole, right? 24:47.995 --> 25:00.255 [SPEAKER_00]: Meaning that they haven't like left the crypto ecosystem because the crypto ecosystem does have strong utility potential, but they're backing off on supporting Bitcoin, they're probably slowly offloading. 25:00.235 --> 25:02.738 [SPEAKER_00]: you know, they're stash and no question about it. 25:02.939 --> 25:17.659 [SPEAKER_00]: That is contributed to some of the sell-off or I'd call it the inability for Bitcoin to even hit like an exp, you know, a mild, exponential gain in this cycle, you know, like what, from 69 to 126, we didn't even two X. 25:18.440 --> 25:29.095 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, so that's relatively unheard of, which is, this is now the first time, actually know it's the second time where our, you know, if you believe the four-year cycle exists, 25:30.323 --> 25:39.683 [SPEAKER_00]: The thing that needs to happen in the four-year cycle is for Bitcoin's price to at least double every four years. 25:42.049 --> 25:44.113 [SPEAKER_00]: And it didn't double. 25:44.144 --> 25:49.271 [SPEAKER_00]: this time, which means that our security budget for Bitcoin is going down, right? 25:49.331 --> 25:52.516 [SPEAKER_00]: How much money is being put to secure the Bitcoin blockchain is going down? 25:53.477 --> 26:00.807 [SPEAKER_00]: And so, is it because of all the things I said, and the concerns of utility? 26:00.827 --> 26:02.650 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure it's contributed to it. 26:03.251 --> 26:13.425 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if it's the other reason, but I'm sure that has contributed to it, and a lot of the OG whales are offloading some and looking elsewhere. 26:13.793 --> 26:24.766 [SPEAKER_01]: One of the other things that I think you could throw in here, it's one of the things that we've seen, is the argument of dilution through altcoin projects. 26:24.826 --> 26:38.181 [SPEAKER_01]: You could say, hey, maybe in 2018, I don't have the exact number off the top of my head, but there's a few hundred, maybe a few thousand, and you look today, and just the ones that are listed on Coin MarketCap is over 30 million. 26:38.161 --> 26:53.787 [SPEAKER_01]: And you could say, well, now what you have done is you have fractionalized the liquidity and you fractionalize the focus and you dividate it up and you continue to dilute that and dilute that by adding more and more altcoin projects. 26:54.208 --> 26:59.436 [SPEAKER_01]: Granted, I would assume that most of those are probably maincoins and stuff, but still, the same concept goes on. 26:59.837 --> 27:03.443 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you start with Bitcoin as the main layer one, then you add a Ethereum. 27:03.423 --> 27:15.556 [SPEAKER_01]: then you add other ones and it continues and then more layer ones get built and then more layer two's get built and then different projects are being built on top of these to do these hyper-specific functions and then you kind of dilute. 27:15.576 --> 27:20.842 [SPEAKER_01]: So the people who are saying, hey, I wanted to invest my money into Bitcoin or Ethereum because of all these reasons. 27:21.222 --> 27:29.751 [SPEAKER_01]: Now I have specific projects that I can put them into that is now not going into Bitcoin and then you found that essentially compounding over a decade of time let's say. 27:29.731 --> 27:37.021 [SPEAKER_01]: And I've seen that be an argument as well as to say, hey, you know, that's a contributing factor to this is that liquidity is getting fractionalized. 27:37.403 --> 27:39.150 [SPEAKER_01]: Would you, where would you stand on that? 27:39.468 --> 27:40.329 [SPEAKER_00]: That's absolutely right. 27:41.130 --> 27:42.672 [SPEAKER_00]: That's no question about it. 27:42.692 --> 27:52.583 [SPEAKER_00]: There's no way that just having like a million other projects creates a million more people, or a million times as much money coming into the space. 27:53.124 --> 27:54.325 [SPEAKER_00]: But where did that all start from? 27:54.505 --> 27:57.609 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it started from Bitcoin not wanting to adopt. 27:58.390 --> 28:05.678 [SPEAKER_00]: And so, Vitalik Booter and wanted Ethereum as a Bitcoin 2.0 feature. 28:05.658 --> 28:09.445 [SPEAKER_00]: and he pressed the core developers to include programmability into Bitcoin. 28:09.766 --> 28:13.052 [SPEAKER_00]: There was an narrative in 2014 to 15, and they called it Bitcoin 2.0. 28:13.132 --> 28:15.396 [SPEAKER_00]: That was a term in 2014 to 15. 28:15.457 --> 28:19.825 [SPEAKER_00]: You heard it all the time, and it was all about the programmability of Bitcoin, right? 28:19.845 --> 28:22.811 [SPEAKER_00]: They didn't use their term DeFi yet, but like, oh my god, we can do this, we can do that. 28:23.031 --> 28:25.716 [SPEAKER_00]: With Bitcoin, it's not just, you know, it's not just payments. 28:26.357 --> 28:28.341 [SPEAKER_00]: Ironically, now it's not even payments. 28:28.321 --> 28:29.743 [SPEAKER_00]: But then it was, oh, it's not even payment. 28:29.763 --> 28:30.444 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not just payments. 28:30.464 --> 28:31.646 [SPEAKER_00]: We could do all this programmability. 28:32.227 --> 28:35.932 [SPEAKER_00]: And Vitalik had really pushed for it and he got shot down and so he launched Ethereum. 28:37.815 --> 28:39.598 [SPEAKER_00]: Same thing for Z-Cash, right? 28:39.878 --> 28:43.563 [SPEAKER_00]: Privacy was one of the biggest pushes to get into Bitcoin. 28:44.184 --> 28:45.066 [SPEAKER_00]: Give it a privacy layer. 28:45.106 --> 28:46.668 [SPEAKER_00]: Let us transact with our knowledge proofs. 28:47.890 --> 28:50.093 [SPEAKER_00]: That was shot down and out came Z-Cash. 28:51.187 --> 29:02.478 [SPEAKER_00]: And once you open the floodgates and those things basically open the floodgates because prior to that, Bitcoin had like 90% of the market capital of crypto and everything else was a clone. 29:02.879 --> 29:10.286 [SPEAKER_00]: It was just copypasta, take the code, copy it, launch another coin, masa coin, this coin, you know, Aurora coin, and then the name it. 29:10.306 --> 29:11.167 [SPEAKER_01]: And all the four. 29:11.687 --> 29:12.789 [SPEAKER_00]: That was all that, that was all four. 29:12.809 --> 29:13.870 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, oh, it was me in the four. 29:13.890 --> 29:16.232 [SPEAKER_01]: Bitcoin, Bitcoin, Bitcoin, Bitcoin, you know, Bitcoin, diamond, Bitcoin. 29:16.752 --> 29:22.320 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, those were not the code forks, but the chain forks, starting with Bitcoin Cash, correct. 29:23.162 --> 29:27.488 [SPEAKER_00]: But the chain fork actually happened, the chain forks happened after Ethereum. 29:27.588 --> 29:28.269 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 29:28.289 --> 29:29.251 [SPEAKER_00]: The Ethereum already came about. 29:29.271 --> 29:36.141 [SPEAKER_00]: The chain fork was the chain forks were an attempt to make Bitcoin competitive against all of the code for. 29:36.562 --> 29:40.127 [SPEAKER_00]: Against all of the newer crypto, such as Ethereum. 29:40.107 --> 29:48.348 [SPEAKER_00]: But once it was seen that Bitcoin would not adopt to some of this new utility, the forks came out, and now the forks actually were compelling. 29:48.388 --> 29:51.837 [SPEAKER_00]: They weren't just like some random, really these were meme coins before that, right? 29:51.897 --> 29:54.563 [SPEAKER_00]: The Aurora coin, Masa coin, blah, blah, blah. 29:54.583 --> 29:56.007 [SPEAKER_00]: They were just meme points. 29:55.987 --> 30:00.977 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, and I hate to throw it out of the bus, like dogecoin was in that era, the Litecoin was in that era. 30:01.178 --> 30:01.919 [SPEAKER_00]: They've survived. 30:01.939 --> 30:04.024 [SPEAKER_00]: There's some, you know, some memecoin survived, right? 30:04.645 --> 30:06.128 [SPEAKER_00]: But there were basically all memecoins. 30:06.188 --> 30:07.110 [SPEAKER_00]: Then Ethereum came out. 30:07.410 --> 30:11.579 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, oh, we can actually launch a chain that has some true additional utility. 30:12.321 --> 30:13.523 [SPEAKER_00]: That Bitcoin doesn't have. 30:14.448 --> 30:30.634 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and then you start seeing some other chains that also build upon that, you know, and then the privacy layer start to come out and then you, you know, then because you've kind of opened up the floodgates of forks, then you start forking Ethereum itself or creating competitors to Ethereum that are faster and cheaper such as Solana. 30:30.614 --> 30:33.639 [SPEAKER_00]: So, but it all started with Bitcoin not wanting to adopt. 30:34.200 --> 30:36.143 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, is it too late for Bitcoin to adopt all of those? 30:36.204 --> 30:42.574 [SPEAKER_00]: This is where all the entrepreneurs trying to build the L2 ecosystem of Bitcoin are trying to get that back. 30:42.594 --> 30:54.715 [SPEAKER_00]: Get all that attention and drive it back into Bitcoin, get that market cap percentage, you know, the Bitcoin dominance back up by pulling all of this inertia away from it. 30:54.695 --> 31:02.086 [SPEAKER_00]: But unfortunately, it's a bit of a battle, you know, within the Bitcoin or ecosystem where I say, I don't want that stuff in. 31:02.406 --> 31:03.528 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, we have to put that in. 31:04.129 --> 31:04.229 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 31:04.249 --> 31:05.551 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not sure who's going to win yet. 31:05.711 --> 31:13.943 [SPEAKER_00]: But we're already hearing talks of yet another hard fork in Bitcoin with two camps that don't agree, which I'd also pretty good back in their original Bitcoin cash fork. 31:14.484 --> 31:20.653 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I saw that the camps that did not want to fork already disagree with each other, right? 31:20.773 --> 31:23.858 [SPEAKER_00]: But 31:24.007 --> 31:30.827 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, so much going on so much to think about and you know, I think listen, you crypto evolves. 31:31.008 --> 31:33.716 [SPEAKER_01]: It has I think it'll be okay at the end of the day. 31:33.776 --> 31:36.063 [SPEAKER_01]: And but it's always good to like work. 31:36.083 --> 31:37.587 [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, I mean, we both agree on that. 31:37.748 --> 31:38.269 [SPEAKER_01]: And and 31:39.582 --> 31:56.173 [SPEAKER_01]: Regardless, like, you know, it's always good to talk about this and hear about this and just bring awareness like, hey guys, you know, there's a lot of stuff going on and we love to stay in the loop on it, but when it comes to edge wall it here, you know, where does edge wall it fit into the picture and what are you working on it edge wall it. 31:57.115 --> 32:03.644 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so ironically, I only say do as I say not as I do, right? 32:04.165 --> 32:08.171 [SPEAKER_00]: And so edge, edge pivoted in 2018. 32:08.932 --> 32:11.175 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, the company is actually airbits ink, right? 32:11.215 --> 32:17.084 [SPEAKER_00]: That is the company that we founded in 2014 with, you know, my original co-founders, you know, and half-wits are still here. 32:17.745 --> 32:20.068 [SPEAKER_00]: But that was focused on utility of Bitcoin payments. 32:20.707 --> 32:30.358 [SPEAKER_00]: And when we a realized that that wasn't really getting broadly adopted for Bitcoin, and that, you know, change like Ethereum had a really compelling use case, we pivoted to becoming a trading app. 32:30.999 --> 32:32.721 [SPEAKER_00]: You could still pay with Edge, right? 32:32.761 --> 32:35.064 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's one engine launch, sorry, 2018 and we launched Edge. 32:35.624 --> 32:43.814 [SPEAKER_00]: And so our focus has been being more of a trading app for people, which admittedly is not utility that I necessarily want to see, right? 32:43.834 --> 32:46.898 [SPEAKER_00]: But I know that that's the utility of crypto today, right? 32:47.178 --> 32:48.239 [SPEAKER_00]: So what are we focused on? 32:48.479 --> 32:49.060 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, 32:49.799 --> 33:02.189 [SPEAKER_00]: There's like that inherent nugget inside of us that even though trading is the utility of crypto today, we're gonna support the projects that bring the true utility for the future, which are the privacy projects. 33:02.951 --> 33:05.277 [SPEAKER_00]: So we've long been one of the, 33:07.096 --> 33:13.402 [SPEAKER_00]: only multi-asset quality wallets to support a myriad of privacy chains. 33:14.143 --> 33:18.427 [SPEAKER_00]: And so we were the first multi-asset app to support Monero back in 2018. 33:19.588 --> 33:32.180 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, when the only way you could get Monero support is, you know, downloading and selling building your own Monero app from GitHub, you know, if there was one of the app store, it only supported Monero nothing else or has no buy functionality, you know, swap, no nothing. 33:32.220 --> 33:34.622 [SPEAKER_00]: There's as bare bones Monero only. 33:34.670 --> 33:41.799 [SPEAKER_00]: But we launched it with support for Manero, Ethereum, Bitcoin, Litecoin, you name it, XRP, Volvo, and swapping between all of them. 33:43.260 --> 33:53.473 [SPEAKER_00]: And then we worked closely with Zuko and his team back when he was still with the original ECC Z-Cash company to get Z-Cash in and not just to get Z-Cash in, so you could trade it. 33:53.873 --> 33:57.017 [SPEAKER_00]: Because if we wanted that, well, we did because we were trading up. 33:57.437 --> 34:01.302 [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, the principal in me is that principal to a fault. 34:01.282 --> 34:05.027 [SPEAKER_00]: is that I wanted it in full privacy mode, because that was a promise of Z-cash. 34:05.928 --> 34:17.985 [SPEAKER_00]: So we held off on Z-cash integration until I think 2021, early 2022, that whole time working on the software with the Zucos team so that we can support full privacy mode on a mobile wall. 34:18.085 --> 34:19.948 [SPEAKER_00]: And then we launched that, where I think we're, 34:19.928 --> 34:24.254 [SPEAKER_00]: one of the first two to support the decash and full private mode. 34:24.654 --> 34:27.418 [SPEAKER_00]: And then we've added since then, Pirate Chainham, a big fan of them, right? 34:27.478 --> 34:43.759 [SPEAKER_00]: There are four comes the cash, but removing the transparency, you know, and so things that we've done along that side, it would be support Zeno, which is by the original developers of the initial code of Monero. 34:43.739 --> 34:50.998 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's use support private tokens and so you can send a private version of Bitcoin on his anal blockchain super cheap 34:51.316 --> 34:57.084 [SPEAKER_00]: and fast and fully private, those are the things that we're working on. 34:57.105 --> 35:03.754 [SPEAKER_00]: We haven't really announced this publicly, we're working on a layer to give IP address level privacy inside of Edge. 35:04.676 --> 35:08.902 [SPEAKER_00]: Similar to Tor, but better than Tor, unfortunately, also slower than Tor. 35:09.943 --> 35:11.666 [SPEAKER_00]: But this one isn't the best one. 35:11.686 --> 35:14.230 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not co-opted by the government the way Tor is. 35:15.391 --> 35:19.197 [SPEAKER_00]: Because it actually has a financial incentive and requirement for people to run these nodes. 35:20.020 --> 35:38.940 [SPEAKER_00]: Since this crypto 101, what does this even mean like, you know, tour for those listeners, tour is a network of computers around the world that was actually launched by the US government, so that you can send internet traffic that gets bounced between different servers, and so you can't tell who originally sent it, right? 35:38.960 --> 35:46.568 [SPEAKER_00]: Like the recipient server can't tell who sent it, and neither can these nodes, as long as it hops between actually different people. 35:47.459 --> 35:57.807 [SPEAKER_00]: but those nodes could a lot of them could be run by the same entity, such as the CIA, and the tour network allows you to pretend you're running a bunch of nodes, even if it's just one computer. 35:59.069 --> 35:59.370 [SPEAKER_00]: All right. 36:00.251 --> 36:02.857 [SPEAKER_00]: And so this mix nets improve on that. 36:02.877 --> 36:04.640 [SPEAKER_00]: That's where we're looking at integrating an edge as well. 36:05.722 --> 36:08.789 [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, privacy, which begets utility has been our focus. 36:08.809 --> 36:11.795 [SPEAKER_00]: That's my long-winded five-plus-minute answer to your question. 36:12.115 --> 36:13.117 [SPEAKER_01]: No, I think it's good. 36:13.137 --> 36:15.442 [SPEAKER_01]: And privacy has been on the up and up. 36:15.462 --> 36:19.390 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you look at the last, I'd say at least six months if not longer than that. 36:19.977 --> 36:22.921 [SPEAKER_01]: It's been on the up and up, you know, privacy, it's been doing really well. 36:22.961 --> 36:26.726 [SPEAKER_01]: I think part of it is just looking at it from a regulatory standpoint. 36:26.766 --> 36:31.612 [SPEAKER_01]: People are saying, hey, this stuff isn't getting just face value blacklisted. 36:31.673 --> 36:35.297 [SPEAKER_01]: And there's going to be more cryptofriendly stance towards this. 36:35.377 --> 36:39.042 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's okay having privacy and it's not all bad. 36:39.082 --> 36:42.627 [SPEAKER_01]: Like that's the big common misconception that I see is it's 36:42.607 --> 36:43.969 [SPEAKER_01]: only ever bad things. 36:44.009 --> 36:45.372 [SPEAKER_01]: It's only illegal purposes. 36:45.432 --> 36:48.737 [SPEAKER_01]: It's only this and that and it's like, all right, well, you know, do a little study. 36:48.857 --> 36:58.092 [SPEAKER_01]: See how much is illegally, launder, laundered in a crypto and then go and compare that to how much is being done in the US dollar or another beyond and it's like not even close. 36:58.733 --> 36:59.174 [SPEAKER_01]: Not even close. 36:59.234 --> 36:59.915 [SPEAKER_01]: Not even close. 36:59.935 --> 37:08.209 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's is I used to have the number on my side because I used to hear that argument so much and I would just have it as like a note pad so I could just spit the number out, but I- 37:08.189 --> 37:13.934 [SPEAKER_01]: since gotten rid of it, I've moved on away from the haters, but it's true. 37:14.434 --> 37:25.944 [SPEAKER_01]: And so when we're going back to Edge Wallet, you know, you guys are saying, hey, we don't want to support privacy, we want to be a wall, we want to be a place for people to be able to transact there in a multi-chain way, right? 37:27.466 --> 37:27.926 [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly. 37:28.547 --> 37:37.234 [SPEAKER_00]: And you know, we realize that we can't just stop supporting 37:37.585 --> 37:39.207 [SPEAKER_00]: supporting the privacy chains. 37:39.568 --> 37:42.211 [SPEAKER_00]: It is a differentiator because number one, they're harder support. 37:42.231 --> 37:55.609 [SPEAKER_00]: So if you don't realize that, we don't just throw in Manero and Zcash pirate chain in Zano, like we could, you know, sue, and Solana, Ethereum, and the next Ethereum L2 optimism, ZK sink and whatnot. 37:56.090 --> 37:57.231 [SPEAKER_00]: Those are 37:57.380 --> 38:04.372 [SPEAKER_00]: what I call simple standard code that you can integrate or someone's just as simple as a config file. 38:04.392 --> 38:05.714 [SPEAKER_00]: You don't even have to add any code. 38:06.856 --> 38:08.058 [SPEAKER_00]: The privacy chains are hard. 38:08.259 --> 38:10.162 [SPEAKER_00]: They include very hard cryptography. 38:11.084 --> 38:20.620 [SPEAKER_00]: That cryptography is written in what I call a very low level languages to the metal, because they're slow, so you have to write them in a language that runs very fast. 38:20.836 --> 38:25.304 [SPEAKER_00]: They don't typically run in the same language or you write your application in. 38:25.384 --> 38:37.286 [SPEAKER_00]: So for you, crypto 101 developers out there, a lot of people write apps in JavaScript or Swift for iOS, you know, Kotlin for Android, well, these cryptography libraries aren't written in those languages. 38:37.687 --> 38:39.250 [SPEAKER_00]: So you have to deal with, 38:39.230 --> 38:40.833 [SPEAKER_00]: talking from one language to another. 38:40.873 --> 38:43.558 [SPEAKER_00]: So they're hard, but it is a differentiator for us. 38:43.679 --> 38:45.662 [SPEAKER_00]: And that has been our user base since day one. 38:45.682 --> 38:47.887 [SPEAKER_00]: We've preached privacy for quite some time. 38:47.927 --> 38:50.351 [SPEAKER_00]: And so that's what they look for, that's what they want. 38:50.973 --> 38:52.456 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's what we want as well. 38:52.496 --> 38:53.758 [SPEAKER_00]: Like we want to transact with that. 38:54.499 --> 38:56.884 [SPEAKER_00]: And so hence, you know, we put it, we put in the effort. 38:57.353 --> 39:02.465 [SPEAKER_01]: Can you talk about the setup, recovery, and custody side of Edge Wallet? 39:02.526 --> 39:07.879 [SPEAKER_01]: Cause I think that's all, I mean, all parts of that process are really unique. 39:07.899 --> 39:11.768 [SPEAKER_01]: Makes it a little bit different from what I think people are used to when they hear the term Wallet. 39:12.743 --> 39:15.048 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's funny you say that, because you're right. 39:15.168 --> 39:16.651 [SPEAKER_00]: It's different than what people are used to. 39:17.172 --> 39:22.242 [SPEAKER_00]: If you're a crypto person, if you're not a crypto person, it's actually what you're used to. 39:22.282 --> 39:24.206 [SPEAKER_00]: It's actually normal, right? 39:24.226 --> 39:27.152 [SPEAKER_00]: It actually feels, call it 90% normal. 39:27.172 --> 39:32.743 [SPEAKER_00]: And so that has been our goal is we want to build by-site for punks, but for everyone else. 39:32.723 --> 39:40.156 [SPEAKER_00]: All right, so the onboarding into Edge feels like, now we call it Web2, kind of feels like a Web2 process, except that there's no email. 39:40.497 --> 39:54.242 [SPEAKER_00]: The traditional cloud-based app that you will create an account on, ask you for an email, login credentials, email and password, and they see your email, so they know who you are. 39:54.222 --> 40:05.076 [SPEAKER_00]: And they have access to everything inside of that account, so when you're creating counting Google on Facebook, on Twitter, they know your email, and they see everything about your account. 40:07.267 --> 40:11.011 [SPEAKER_00]: an edge you create just a username and that is not even seen by edge, right? 40:11.051 --> 40:13.454 [SPEAKER_00]: That is kind of encrypted in a way it's hashed. 40:13.894 --> 40:16.337 [SPEAKER_00]: So only we just see a jumble of letters and numbers. 40:16.397 --> 40:18.239 [SPEAKER_00]: We don't see the actual username you chose. 40:18.959 --> 40:20.041 [SPEAKER_00]: Same thing with the password. 40:20.141 --> 40:21.022 [SPEAKER_00]: It's hash client side. 40:21.042 --> 40:21.802 [SPEAKER_00]: We don't see the original. 40:22.643 --> 40:25.086 [SPEAKER_00]: Most services actually do see the original password you typed in. 40:25.526 --> 40:28.029 [SPEAKER_00]: They just then encrypt it before they store it. 40:29.470 --> 40:31.873 [SPEAKER_00]: We don't even see the original password you typed in. 40:32.933 --> 40:37.341 [SPEAKER_00]: And then the combination of both of those, you know, 40:37.979 --> 40:43.584 [SPEAKER_00]: encrypt your actual real private keys and all the data in the app, all the data in the app is encrypted. 40:44.245 --> 40:49.650 [SPEAKER_00]: So, know that Edge doesn't see anything that you would normally see inside of the app. 40:50.190 --> 40:51.051 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, even your settings. 40:51.171 --> 40:57.276 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, see, one of the settings in the app, what's a basic setting you would have in the app is, oh, what, what fiat currency do I use? 40:58.137 --> 40:58.437 [SPEAKER_00]: All right. 40:58.457 --> 41:00.840 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I want to make everything the dollars are Canadian dollar. 41:01.100 --> 41:05.444 [SPEAKER_00]: That setting is encrypted and backed up on our servers and then synchronize between your devices. 41:06.124 --> 41:07.986 [SPEAKER_00]: We don't know what that setting is. 41:07.966 --> 41:15.805 [SPEAKER_00]: You can also tag transactions, like, all right, I sent, you know, I sent some money over to Crypto101 podcast. 41:16.085 --> 41:16.627 [SPEAKER_00]: I'll tag it. 41:17.028 --> 41:17.689 [SPEAKER_00]: That's encrypted. 41:17.950 --> 41:19.714 [SPEAKER_00]: Back to Edge Never Season. 41:19.981 --> 41:21.923 [SPEAKER_00]: You can fill in it with your address book. 41:21.943 --> 41:37.982 [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of people say why is edged asking for access to my address book and that is easily a get it It you should be concerned when an app asks you for access to your address book But we're open source to prove that when we do that's just to give you a little autocomplete like when you tap pay Like who did I send money to or who did who sent me money? 41:38.603 --> 41:41.787 [SPEAKER_00]: It'll show your address book and you search through people you know in your address book 41:41.767 --> 41:42.528 [SPEAKER_00]: you choose someone. 41:42.949 --> 41:43.469 [SPEAKER_00]: It tags it. 41:43.650 --> 41:45.312 [SPEAKER_00]: That's encrypted on your device. 41:45.813 --> 41:46.393 [SPEAKER_00]: It's backed up. 41:46.854 --> 41:47.575 [SPEAKER_00]: It's synchronized. 41:47.996 --> 41:48.937 [SPEAKER_00]: But Edge never sees it. 41:49.257 --> 41:50.860 [SPEAKER_00]: We never see your address book. 41:50.880 --> 41:52.182 [SPEAKER_00]: It's literally only on your device. 41:53.463 --> 41:54.565 [SPEAKER_00]: So that is the onboarding, right? 41:54.585 --> 41:56.488 [SPEAKER_00]: It's just just a physical web to onboarding. 41:56.888 --> 41:58.410 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, everything is encrypted backed up. 41:58.470 --> 41:59.231 [SPEAKER_00]: You lose your phone. 41:59.251 --> 42:00.613 [SPEAKER_00]: You can go log in on another device. 42:00.633 --> 42:05.360 [SPEAKER_00]: You can even set up password recovery with a couple personal questions and answers, which we also don't see. 42:05.380 --> 42:06.081 [SPEAKER_00]: Those are encrypted. 42:07.223 --> 42:08.324 [SPEAKER_00]: Two fact-drawn authentication. 42:08.424 --> 42:10.407 [SPEAKER_00]: Enable that at the touch of a button. 42:10.387 --> 42:12.010 [SPEAKER_00]: but extra protection account. 42:12.551 --> 42:19.103 [SPEAKER_00]: So it does feel like a custodial, you know, wallet account, but it's absolutely not. 42:19.244 --> 42:21.408 [SPEAKER_00]: Like you have control over those keys. 42:21.468 --> 42:22.710 [SPEAKER_00]: The keys are on your device. 42:22.730 --> 42:24.854 [SPEAKER_00]: We can go out of business as long as you have edge logged in. 42:25.856 --> 42:28.040 [SPEAKER_00]: You could select your keys by a metric or password. 42:28.060 --> 42:30.184 [SPEAKER_00]: Can decrypt the keys on your phone? 42:30.232 --> 42:36.220 [SPEAKER_00]: And be able to send out funds or you just take the keys off, put it into another wallet app. 42:36.961 --> 42:38.723 [SPEAKER_00]: Even though that we are your backup though. 42:39.484 --> 42:42.848 [SPEAKER_00]: So you are the primary and edges your backup. 42:43.549 --> 42:45.091 [SPEAKER_00]: You can't lose both, right? 42:45.151 --> 42:48.376 [SPEAKER_00]: So if we disappeared, so long as you've got that device with edge log den. 42:48.936 --> 42:54.964 [SPEAKER_00]: But if you don't actively have edge log den, not logged in, but you've at least logged in on a device, right? 42:55.545 --> 42:58.028 [SPEAKER_00]: If you don't actively have edge on your phone, 42:58.075 --> 43:01.560 [SPEAKER_00]: with your account that you've logged into at least once, then you're relying on us. 43:03.042 --> 43:03.142 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 43:03.162 --> 43:03.362 [SPEAKER_00]: All right. 43:03.382 --> 43:05.965 [SPEAKER_00]: And some people say that we're custody, and that's not where you're back up. 43:05.985 --> 43:13.255 [SPEAKER_00]: Just like that piece of paper backup that you have somewhere, if you lose your treasure, that papers are back up, well, we're the backup as well. 43:13.636 --> 43:22.227 [SPEAKER_00]: So if you're an edge user, always have edge install on your phone and have your account logged in at least once, and you don't ever rely on us. 43:22.409 --> 43:25.352 [SPEAKER_01]: And I thought the Dores mode was pretty cool as well. 43:25.452 --> 43:27.594 [SPEAKER_01]: And that was something that stood out to me. 43:28.095 --> 43:29.937 [SPEAKER_01]: I guess real quick, you know, walk us through that. 43:29.957 --> 43:31.238 [SPEAKER_01]: I think everyone deserves to hear about it. 43:31.258 --> 43:32.319 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a nice little cool. 43:32.339 --> 43:32.779 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 43:32.800 --> 43:37.885 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's one of the most important features that I think every crypto app should have whether because do a deal, wall it, or whatnot. 43:38.585 --> 43:41.048 [SPEAKER_00]: And how you implement it could be different. 43:41.068 --> 43:47.134 [SPEAKER_00]: But our implementation of Dores allows you to set up a second pin that you can use to unlock your account. 43:47.114 --> 43:53.241 [SPEAKER_00]: So, normally you can unlock your account that you've already logged into with your password, pin, or biometric. 43:54.222 --> 43:58.746 [SPEAKER_00]: This allows you to have a second pin that when you enter it unlocks a sub-account. 43:58.807 --> 43:59.728 [SPEAKER_00]: It's called a sub-account. 44:00.468 --> 44:04.753 [SPEAKER_00]: And that sub-account can have real wallets with real keys and real money in it. 44:05.253 --> 44:11.460 [SPEAKER_00]: But ideally, that could be your kind of small spending money, not your larger funds that you would hold an edge. 44:12.401 --> 44:16.986 [SPEAKER_00]: The wallets that you create in that direct sub-account 44:17.658 --> 44:28.051 [SPEAKER_00]: So you can do your regular activity from your main account if you wanted to expend crypto, which I encourage people to actually use crypto, go find merchants in your neighborhood, I take crypto and go and spend with them. 44:28.752 --> 44:37.162 [SPEAKER_00]: And then if you ever underdress, which is someone's wanting you forcing you to unlock your account, the enter your dress pen and what shows up is just a little spending wallet. 44:37.182 --> 44:40.206 [SPEAKER_00]: And it looks a real wall because it actually has real spends coming from it. 44:40.270 --> 44:42.253 [SPEAKER_00]: All right, but your larger funds are at least hidden. 44:42.293 --> 44:48.102 [SPEAKER_00]: And so, I'll be just honest, this doesn't protect you from physical attacks. 44:48.122 --> 44:49.284 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to hurt you, they can hurt you. 44:49.705 --> 44:52.008 [SPEAKER_00]: But it can protect your funds, at least. 44:52.489 --> 44:56.195 [SPEAKER_00]: And it gives you plausible deniability that, hey, that's all I hold inside it. 44:56.335 --> 44:57.677 [SPEAKER_00]: Just like these little funds are all I hold. 44:59.079 --> 45:04.287 [SPEAKER_00]: For a lot of people that might realistically be, the most that they would hold in a mobile app. 45:04.267 --> 45:12.899 [SPEAKER_00]: But for those that were concerned about a whole, so for some people holding a large amount of funds in a mobile app, their concern was exactly this, the physical threat. 45:14.221 --> 45:25.296 [SPEAKER_00]: And now that physical threat is mitigated with the direct mode, so at least there may be other reasons why people feel uncomfortable, at least the physical threat can be partially mitigated with this feature. 45:25.512 --> 45:26.694 [SPEAKER_01]: absolutely will pull. 45:27.375 --> 45:33.944 [SPEAKER_01]: We really appreciate your time in just getting to talk about the markets and everything and especially what you're doing at Edge Wall. 45:34.004 --> 45:35.046 [SPEAKER_01]: Again, really cool stuff. 45:35.586 --> 45:38.530 [SPEAKER_01]: Really cool take on wallet, which is again, you make a good point. 45:38.911 --> 45:43.317 [SPEAKER_01]: It's different in the crypto sense, but it's normal if you're coming from a more traditional sense. 45:43.738 --> 45:55.114 [SPEAKER_01]: So if you are one of those people who's maybe a little bit newer to crypto and you are looking for something a little bit 45:55.094 --> 45:56.441 [SPEAKER_01]: Paul, where can everyone find you? 45:56.461 --> 46:00.520 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, they want to go, they want to find edge wall out, they want to follow what you're doing as well. 46:01.003 --> 46:03.957 [SPEAKER_01]: Where can they find the website, socials, whatever you prefer? 46:04.561 --> 46:06.784 [SPEAKER_00]: We can find everything on our website edge.app. 46:06.804 --> 46:09.488 [SPEAKER_00]: All right, so we've got a simple nice clean domain edge.app. 46:09.508 --> 46:10.730 [SPEAKER_00]: You'll find our socials on there. 46:10.770 --> 46:13.394 [SPEAKER_00]: You'll even find my contact information on there, my socials. 46:14.756 --> 46:19.302 [SPEAKER_00]: One thing you might not see on there right now, which is a more immediate, you know, work and you find us. 46:19.623 --> 46:33.943 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not sure when this is going to air for a live right now, but we are going to be over at Mineratopia, starting literally tomorrow, which is the elatase of 10th. 46:34.193 --> 46:34.854 [SPEAKER_00]: afterwards. 46:34.954 --> 46:35.234 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 46:36.695 --> 46:38.077 [SPEAKER_00]: So anyway, here's where we were. 46:38.117 --> 46:47.946 [SPEAKER_00]: If this is catching you guys late, Minerotopia from February 11, 12, 13, 14, and then Anarcha Polko, the 15th through, I think about the 20th. 46:48.466 --> 46:52.009 [SPEAKER_00]: A February, if this happens to air, the middle of that, you can catch us there. 46:52.029 --> 46:52.770 [SPEAKER_00]: It's all in Mexico. 46:54.011 --> 46:58.355 [SPEAKER_00]: Mexico City for Minerotopia, Porta Vallarta for Anarcha Polko. 46:58.676 --> 46:59.296 [SPEAKER_00]: You can't make it. 46:59.676 --> 47:01.238 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe try to catch those events next year. 47:01.298 --> 47:02.479 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a great 47:02.459 --> 47:06.525 [SPEAKER_00]: set of events for a lot of the privacy, free-of-loving crypto fans. 47:06.805 --> 47:12.854 [SPEAKER_00]: All right, they talk about a whole lot of things in, in, in, uh, and a couple of people but crypto is a big topic of discussion as well. 47:13.595 --> 47:17.361 [SPEAKER_00]: So, catches at some of those events of, uh, you're able to hear about it soon enough. 47:17.721 --> 47:18.142 [SPEAKER_01]: For sure. 47:18.342 --> 47:18.803 [SPEAKER_01]: We'll Paul. 47:18.903 --> 47:19.284 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you. 47:19.364 --> 47:20.465 [SPEAKER_01]: Once again for joining us. 47:21.187 --> 47:22.388 [SPEAKER_01]: And we appreciate your time. 47:23.189 --> 47:24.231 [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks a lot for having me.