WEBVTT 00:00.655 --> 00:01.656 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm Jamie Cochran. 00:01.757 --> 00:02.458 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm Life Babin. 00:02.718 --> 00:03.459 [SPEAKER_00]: Mead Win. 00:03.619 --> 00:05.222 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm Extreme Watership Podcast. 00:06.664 --> 00:10.850 [SPEAKER_00]: So the topic for this episode is the cost of being right. 00:11.431 --> 00:12.753 [SPEAKER_00]: What happens when you're right? 00:12.813 --> 00:14.435 [SPEAKER_00]: You're really right in an argument. 00:15.056 --> 00:18.080 [SPEAKER_00]: How do you handle those situations and what is the cost of being right? 00:18.160 --> 00:19.963 [SPEAKER_00]: How do we manage those relationships? 00:20.382 --> 00:28.196 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, this is clearly something I have to contend with a lot, Jamie, as you know, just being right so often. 00:30.420 --> 00:42.542 [SPEAKER_02]: This is one of those things that it's kind of cool to be bringing this up right now, because this is, I think it was a few probably five, six, seven, monsters ago, you know, I started talking about the fact that when you're right, 00:42.522 --> 00:57.726 [SPEAKER_02]: It actually cost you leadership capital, that's I think we're originally, I've said this was, hey, things that gain you leadership capital, it's when you listen to people, it gains you leadership capital when you utilize their plan, it gains you leadership capital when you put trust in them. 00:58.127 --> 01:01.813 [SPEAKER_02]: And then I started talking about some of the things that cost you leadership capital. 01:01.793 --> 01:13.348 [SPEAKER_02]: And clearly, if I don't listen to you that cost me leadership capital, if I use my own plan instead of yours, that cost me leadership capital, if I'm disrespectful in some way, you that cost me leadership capital. 01:13.488 --> 01:26.525 [SPEAKER_02]: And then as I went down this list, eventually, I got to the point that when you're right in some kind of a discussion, if you're not careful, it's very easy for that to cost you leadership capital. 01:27.206 --> 01:27.987 [SPEAKER_02]: So, 01:28.473 --> 01:37.947 [SPEAKER_02]: The converse of that is when someone else is right, I take advantage of that and I try and game leadership capital by saying, oh, Jamie, wow, you're right. 01:38.147 --> 01:38.608 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm wrong. 01:38.628 --> 01:43.815 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm gonna make, look, I'm not gonna overexaggerate it, but I'll say, oh, that's a great point, Jamie, no one actually, I think you're right. 01:44.095 --> 01:45.678 [SPEAKER_02]: I think we should go with your plan, right? 01:45.698 --> 01:48.181 [SPEAKER_02]: I think your idea is correct and mine is wrong. 01:48.582 --> 01:51.426 [SPEAKER_02]: So yes, you have to be very careful. 01:51.541 --> 01:56.186 [SPEAKER_02]: when you're right, not too gloat on being right. 01:56.987 --> 02:02.773 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's something that our ego is going to be, you know, in the back of our head, our ego is just gonna be jumping up and down. 02:02.973 --> 02:04.014 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm right, I'm right. 02:04.374 --> 02:06.917 [SPEAKER_02]: You need to tell Jamie, she's got to recognize it. 02:07.197 --> 02:08.318 [SPEAKER_02]: No, she doesn't. 02:08.338 --> 02:11.682 [SPEAKER_02]: She's gonna know it, let's just let it go and carry on. 02:11.762 --> 02:19.590 [SPEAKER_02]: So yes, being right, you have to use caution when you're right, otherwise you'll lose some leadership capital as strange as that might sound. 02:19.992 --> 02:30.727 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and what's interesting is that the cost of being right isn't just leaders have capital, the reality is, and I had this conversation with someone recently a leader who is dealing with this exact situation, hey, I am right. 02:31.568 --> 02:40.280 [SPEAKER_00]: And my feedback to them is it doesn't really matter if you're right, it doesn't matter because at the end of the day that other person's perspective right or wrong is still there truth. 02:40.360 --> 02:42.383 [SPEAKER_00]: It's still there perspective and you can't change that. 02:42.923 --> 02:48.531 [SPEAKER_00]: So what we have to do is leaders is being willing to accept that our perspective might be flawed in some sense. 02:48.562 --> 02:55.113 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I don't know, maybe we're talking about the same person and they're mom and dadding us because I had a conversation with a leader as well. 02:55.794 --> 03:01.262 [SPEAKER_02]: And what this leader said to me, it was a man, said to me, but what if I'm right? 03:02.224 --> 03:10.177 [SPEAKER_02]: After this long thing, well, that don't think he didn't think, they got this perspective and I got this perspective and I was like, well, you want to listen, you want to incorporate the perspective, we went through the whole thing. 03:10.457 --> 03:12.240 [SPEAKER_02]: And then at the end of it, he says, 03:12.929 --> 03:14.812 [SPEAKER_02]: But what if I'm right, you know? 03:14.992 --> 03:17.135 [SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, it's the same exact thing. 03:17.556 --> 03:18.658 [SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't really matter. 03:18.878 --> 03:29.334 [SPEAKER_02]: Now listen, obviously if we're talking about some massive capital expenditure that's gonna ruin our company or we're talking about some combat operation where our tactics are completely unsound. 03:29.754 --> 03:32.338 [SPEAKER_02]: Clearly, we can't let those things go. 03:32.719 --> 03:33.520 [SPEAKER_02]: But... 03:33.500 --> 03:36.223 [SPEAKER_02]: how often do things really matter that much? 03:36.623 --> 03:45.032 [SPEAKER_02]: Does it really matter if we put the font for the advertisement with OCR standard or ARL does it really matter? 03:45.072 --> 03:46.874 [SPEAKER_02]: No, it doesn't. 03:47.335 --> 03:57.445 [SPEAKER_02]: So analyzing and assessing to make sure that what you're going to utilize your leadership capital for to be right, you better make it worthwhile. 03:57.826 --> 04:01.870 [SPEAKER_02]: And generally speaking, 99% of the time, it ain't. 04:02.069 --> 04:07.118 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think what we're talking about here is the most people think about. 04:07.233 --> 04:33.898 [SPEAKER_01]: winning as being right like I if I if I'm right I proved myself right you're wrong I can tell you you know I told you so all those things that feel so good like see I won I was correct but yet from a detached perspective what what winning looks like is actually are you building a better relationship with that person and are you acquiring leadership capital that person and you're just you're just hemorrhaging that all day long particularly if you rub it in someone's face after they 04:33.878 --> 04:52.427 [SPEAKER_01]: after they're coming to the conclusion that they what they so insisted was the correct way maybe wasn't and I think if you take a step back to be take your ego out of it it's a lot easier to see what winning looks like and that is building better relationships with people that you have to work with and acquiring greater leadership capital. 04:52.407 --> 04:54.790 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's just a prioritize and execute situation. 04:55.111 --> 05:00.177 [SPEAKER_02]: If Jamie and I, if you and I have an conversation, my priority is to build a better relationship with you. 05:00.558 --> 05:13.335 [SPEAKER_02]: Not to be right about what font we're using on some advertisement or whatever other random thing, which doesn't matter, we might be arguing or discussing that is a lower priority to me than having making sure I'm building our relationship. 05:13.619 --> 05:18.164 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I've heard you say the phrase before when the relationship, not the argument. 05:18.224 --> 05:19.145 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not about the argument. 05:19.165 --> 05:20.206 [SPEAKER_00]: It's about the relationship. 05:20.687 --> 05:28.335 [SPEAKER_00]: I was thinking about this in a business sense because I remember a situation when it was about a year ago and I had I was dealing with a client. 05:28.676 --> 05:37.045 [SPEAKER_00]: And the client had submitted paperwork to us for a particular event and the date on their proposal that they completed was a particular date, March 15th. 05:37.514 --> 05:54.443 [SPEAKER_00]: on the contract we said it for March 15th in the calendar and the confirmation e-mails March 15th and as you can probably imagine when happened as we get closer to the event they realize we have it scheduled for Friday, March 15th and their event is on Thursday which is now creating a big issue because we got to get an instructor there. 05:54.423 --> 05:57.748 [SPEAKER_00]: And your instinct in that moment is, I've got all of the proof. 05:58.169 --> 05:59.591 [SPEAKER_00]: I can stack the proof up. 05:59.671 --> 06:01.214 [SPEAKER_00]: I've got a contract that you signed. 06:01.595 --> 06:03.137 [SPEAKER_00]: I've got the form that you completed. 06:03.177 --> 06:07.023 [SPEAKER_00]: I've got the email that I sent that you confirmed and agreed to. 06:07.083 --> 06:12.773 [SPEAKER_00]: And yet, this individual was placing blame, probably in a state of panic, right? 06:12.813 --> 06:15.537 [SPEAKER_00]: We're not going to get an instructor here struggling with that. 06:15.517 --> 06:31.787 [SPEAKER_00]: now they're coming back to us and saying no we screwed this up we screwed this up and we've got all the proof stacked up against in this situation and the reality is at the end of the day what i had to tell my team who's ego is definitely kind of getting it play and wondering how we're going to solve this it doesn't matter 06:32.375 --> 06:37.572 [SPEAKER_00]: And being right in the situation and proving to this client that we're in the right here doesn't solve the problem. 06:37.592 --> 06:45.979 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's what people struggle with is this idea of I'm going to be right but at the cost of not actually solving or moving forward in those situations. 06:46.178 --> 06:55.854 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, this is also kind of similar to the trick question that I throw out all the time, which is how often do you think I have to admit that I'm wrong? 06:56.174 --> 06:58.959 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's a trick question I'll always ask if the muscle asks it to clients. 06:58.979 --> 07:00.441 [SPEAKER_02]: How often do you think I have to admit that I'm wrong? 07:00.702 --> 07:02.725 [SPEAKER_02]: And people think, okay, Jaco talks about humility. 07:03.025 --> 07:05.009 [SPEAKER_02]: He must have to admit that he's wrong all the time. 07:05.049 --> 07:09.556 [SPEAKER_02]: And people will say, twice a day, five times a day, I bet you admit that you're wrong 10 times a day. 07:09.817 --> 07:13.182 [SPEAKER_02]: And then I say, actually, I hardly ever admit that I'm wrong. 07:14.090 --> 07:18.616 [SPEAKER_02]: and people are all shocked by that because they think I'm just digging in and never admitting that I'm wrong. 07:18.997 --> 07:27.848 [SPEAKER_02]: But no, it's actually the fact that I very, very seldom do I say, hey, I'm right about this, you should just listen to what I'm saying. 07:28.249 --> 07:31.473 [SPEAKER_02]: It's so rare that I would actually say that that it almost never happens. 07:31.814 --> 07:40.485 [SPEAKER_02]: So therefore I very seldom have to admit that I'm wrong because I very seldom am standing up on the pedestal and saying, I am right. 07:40.465 --> 07:42.130 [SPEAKER_02]: 100% obey. 07:42.150 --> 07:55.167 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't I don't say that so therefore very seldom do I have to say actually what's wrong about that you know is part of that because when you're in these types of conversations you're always thinking about the fact that you could be wrong is there an aspect of that 07:55.214 --> 08:12.577 [SPEAKER_02]: absolutely, absolutely 100% and the classic story that Laef tells about that is when we were going through close quarters combat training and in the assault train going through a building and he was at the back of the assault train, which is not the best place to lead from because you can't see what's happening. 08:13.118 --> 08:23.972 [SPEAKER_02]: And so I'm watching, I'm observing Laef and I said, hey, why are 08:23.952 --> 08:30.240 [SPEAKER_02]: a 99% chance that he was going to say, um, well, I don't really know what do you think I should do. 08:30.520 --> 08:38.530 [SPEAKER_02]: But there's a 1% chance that he was going to say, well, you know, I want to my assistant Patoon Commander to see what it was like up front or hey, I wanted to let my e-dogs run this thing and I didn't want to mess with him. 08:38.710 --> 08:40.012 [SPEAKER_02]: He could have had legitimate answers. 08:40.552 --> 08:49.183 [SPEAKER_02]: And even though that was a 1% chance, that's actually what I'm kind of hoping for and anticipating that I'm not going to be, oh, why are you doing that? 08:49.163 --> 08:50.226 [SPEAKER_02]: You're wrong. 08:50.286 --> 08:51.068 [SPEAKER_02]: You shouldn't be there. 08:51.288 --> 08:57.204 [SPEAKER_02]: I actually want to hear oh, yeah, you're doing that because you want your assistant tune commander gets some experience great that makes sense Hey cool carry on. 08:57.484 --> 09:03.139 [SPEAKER_02]: That's what I'm hoping for you don't always get that, but I'm rolling into the conversation 09:03.305 --> 09:06.813 [SPEAKER_02]: with that one, I'm putting all my chips on the one percent. 09:06.993 --> 09:10.541 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm putting all my chips on the one percent chance that someone else is right and I'm wrong. 09:10.782 --> 09:17.778 [SPEAKER_02]: That's how I enter every conversation all the time and it's really beneficial and it's not something that I'm pretending. 09:18.299 --> 09:20.925 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not pretending to say, 09:21.428 --> 09:24.534 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey Jamie, do you really think that's the best font? 09:24.654 --> 09:25.756 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not pretending to say that. 09:26.237 --> 09:30.143 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm literally saying, hey Jamie, do you think that's the best font? 09:30.164 --> 09:37.396 [SPEAKER_02]: And you're gonna say back to me, oh, you know what, Jockel actually went to the printer, they tried the font that you wanted, it ended up blurring with the colors and so we can't use it. 09:37.416 --> 09:40.602 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's why I went with this one, which is the clearest of all the ones that we tested. 09:40.582 --> 09:40.882 [SPEAKER_02]: Right? 09:41.123 --> 09:42.484 [SPEAKER_02]: That's what I think you're going to say. 09:42.664 --> 09:43.826 [SPEAKER_02]: I think you're going to be right. 09:44.286 --> 09:47.750 [SPEAKER_02]: And that kind of intent right there is what people smell. 09:47.971 --> 09:52.075 [SPEAKER_02]: They smell the fact that I'm really like on board with what you know what your answer is going to be. 09:52.095 --> 09:52.816 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's what I'm hoping for. 09:54.118 --> 09:55.399 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, for my perspective on that. 09:56.040 --> 09:58.443 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you had all kinds of experience in the seal teams. 09:58.463 --> 10:01.426 [SPEAKER_01]: I think you've been in the seal teams for what 15 years at that point. 10:01.707 --> 10:03.008 [SPEAKER_01]: I've been in the seal teams for two years. 10:04.069 --> 10:04.530 [SPEAKER_01]: But. 10:05.354 --> 10:10.642 [SPEAKER_01]: You clearly were placing a premium on building a good relationship with me and an acquiring leadership capital. 10:11.083 --> 10:14.288 [SPEAKER_01]: So instead of saying, hey, what are you doing at the back of the train, Nucklehead? 10:14.649 --> 10:15.670 [SPEAKER_01]: That doesn't make any sense. 10:16.071 --> 10:16.732 [SPEAKER_01]: That's stupid. 10:17.112 --> 10:19.336 [SPEAKER_01]: I probably would have done what you don't want to do, right? 10:19.396 --> 10:20.157 [SPEAKER_01]: It was moved forward. 10:20.718 --> 10:22.881 [SPEAKER_01]: But by asking me, hey, why are you in the back of the train? 10:22.901 --> 10:23.903 [SPEAKER_01]: It was... 10:23.883 --> 10:41.582 [SPEAKER_01]: you're keeping an open mind that I might have some reason to do that, and then you went on to ask me, I thought that's where I was supposed to be, and I'd been told by a previous Petune Chief, and I needed to be in the back of the train that was the officer's place, and I was supposed to take this report, so I thought I was doing exactly what I was supposed to do. 10:42.263 --> 10:49.030 [SPEAKER_01]: Then you asked me a follow-up question, which was, hey, can you see what's going on in the front of the train? 10:49.010 --> 10:51.996 [SPEAKER_01]: And I said, I have no idea what's going on with the front train. 10:52.116 --> 10:55.784 [SPEAKER_01]: And so then you ask me, well, how can you lead if you don't know what's going on up front. 10:55.804 --> 11:05.223 [SPEAKER_01]: So it was, it was a series of questions taking the indirect approach, allowing me to reveal the truth to myself, rather than you saying, like, hey, you're wrong. 11:05.243 --> 11:10.714 [SPEAKER_01]: You're not the back of the train, move forward, you know, get in the middle somewhere where you can actually see what's going on. 11:10.694 --> 11:15.962 [SPEAKER_01]: And so it allowed me to build a truth to myself, which acquired leadership capital, I was wouldn't listen. 11:15.982 --> 11:16.944 [SPEAKER_01]: I thought, oh, that makes sense. 11:17.605 --> 11:23.674 [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't recall that you ever had to tell me that again, because I realized my place is somewhere in the middle. 11:23.734 --> 11:28.261 [SPEAKER_01]: I can't be too far for getting sucked into every room clearance, but I can't be too far in the back. 11:28.281 --> 11:29.563 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's a... 11:29.543 --> 11:59.449 [SPEAKER_01]: a powerful thing for leaders understand whether on the battlefield or on a business you're not in a fixed position you should be located somewhere where you can provide the best command and control for the bulk of your forces and you can move around to where the friction points are happening and see what's actually going on and vector resources there and I think that's a great example of using the indirect approach asking questions putting a premium on building a relationship or acquiring leadership capital and not demonstrating 11:59.429 --> 12:00.030 [SPEAKER_01]: Chuck. 12:00.911 --> 12:03.454 [SPEAKER_00]: I had an interesting conversation with my son. 12:03.474 --> 12:04.295 [SPEAKER_00]: This was a couple of years ago. 12:04.355 --> 12:07.218 [SPEAKER_00]: He was pretty young, but we are driving home and the new movie had come out. 12:07.258 --> 12:10.823 [SPEAKER_00]: And the movie was Raya, and he says, it's Raya. 12:11.543 --> 12:13.346 [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, no, no, I think it's Raya, Brendan. 12:13.626 --> 12:14.967 [SPEAKER_00]: And he's like, no, it's Raya. 12:15.348 --> 12:19.553 [SPEAKER_00]: He's totally dug in, like, dug in, and what you're describing here is don't get yourself dug in. 12:20.114 --> 12:24.579 [SPEAKER_00]: But I remember thinking, OK, and I asked him, hey, Brendan, what if you're wrong? 12:24.779 --> 12:25.300 [SPEAKER_00]: What if you're wrong? 12:25.320 --> 12:27.242 [SPEAKER_00]: He said, I'm not, I'm not wrong. 12:27.222 --> 12:35.890 [SPEAKER_00]: So we go home and we pull up the trailer for the movie and the whole thing goes through and at the very end she goes, and my name is Raya. 12:36.570 --> 12:43.196 [SPEAKER_00]: And I feel like all myself included, my two kids, we looked over at my son and we were like, told you so, like, he crowed, right? 12:43.797 --> 12:46.459 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's what people are chasing when they want to be right. 12:46.539 --> 12:47.680 [SPEAKER_00]: Is that feeling for one? 12:48.001 --> 12:57.229 [SPEAKER_00]: My son needs to learn to lessen about not digging in because then he had to sort of be in that moment of, oh, dang I was wrong, but for the rest of us too, because even as his 12:57.209 --> 13:05.449 [SPEAKER_00]: I told you so so how do people I know people are listening to this and saying Okay, but what if I'm actually right and what if I'm actually right? 13:05.529 --> 13:12.847 [SPEAKER_00]: How do I manage my emotions in ego in those moments when I just want to say and get that satisfaction that our ego is demanding? 13:12.867 --> 13:14.290 [SPEAKER_00]: I told you so 13:15.012 --> 13:22.884 [SPEAKER_02]: And so this is, once the truth has come out, whatever that the name of the connection, the differentiation or the connection. 13:22.904 --> 13:23.785 [SPEAKER_00]: We're just wanting them to know. 13:23.805 --> 13:28.192 [SPEAKER_02]: There's a position to be in in the assault train, once it's now proven. 13:28.232 --> 13:35.864 [SPEAKER_00]: Even if it's not proven, even if you know, like you know it's right, even the example of the client, I know what this is what we said. 13:35.884 --> 13:42.133 [SPEAKER_00]: How do you deal with the ego hit of, I just want to prove to this person that I am right. 13:42.518 --> 13:59.196 [SPEAKER_02]: From my perspective, it's kind of like if you ever hear me talk about working out, whether you're going for Ron, whether you're lifting weights or whatever you're doing, you're going to train you Jitsu, when you before you do it, you don't feel like doing it for whatever reason you're tired or whatever the case may be. 13:59.918 --> 14:01.000 [SPEAKER_02]: And then you go and do it. 14:01.587 --> 14:05.611 [SPEAKER_02]: And when you get done with it, you know like you feel better. 14:05.731 --> 14:08.674 [SPEAKER_02]: And eventually, you learn what that feeling is. 14:09.275 --> 14:17.123 [SPEAKER_02]: You learn that, oh, I don't feel like going to Gigiitsu right now, but I know when I'm done, I know I'm gonna feel good. 14:17.984 --> 14:23.150 [SPEAKER_02]: So for me, it's a very similar sort of tool that I'm gonna use. 14:23.730 --> 14:25.232 [SPEAKER_02]: I know that when, 14:25.212 --> 14:27.315 [SPEAKER_02]: The printer comes back and says, you know what? 14:27.395 --> 14:29.458 [SPEAKER_02]: We should use the font that Jaco said. 14:30.139 --> 14:35.146 [SPEAKER_02]: I know it would feel good in that moment to go, there you go, Jamie, don't ever question me again. 14:35.206 --> 14:37.349 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, that would feel good. 14:37.369 --> 14:39.371 [SPEAKER_02]: My ego would go, yeah, you really showed her. 14:40.092 --> 14:44.678 [SPEAKER_02]: But I know that the long-term gratification of building a really good relationship with you. 14:44.759 --> 14:45.820 [SPEAKER_02]: And by the way, 14:45.800 --> 14:58.198 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to be wrong at some point, I'm going to make a mistake somewhere, and you're going to have an opportunity to gloat over me, but if I haven't cast that in with you and disrespected you, you're going to tend not to do that to me. 14:58.458 --> 15:11.938 [SPEAKER_02]: So I think just thinking long-term and thinking strategic about the relationship and not going for the immediate gratification of a donut of a skip workout or of a moment of gloating is where you're going to do better as a human being. 15:13.039 --> 15:13.680 [SPEAKER_00]: I like that. 15:14.048 --> 15:17.313 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it comes back to that detachment perspective of what is winning look like. 15:17.714 --> 15:21.760 [SPEAKER_01]: Like we talked about, which is your example with a client, what is winning look like? 15:22.441 --> 15:27.910 [SPEAKER_01]: It feels good to say, hey, actually, this is the date, we are correct, you sign this stuff. 15:28.450 --> 15:31.315 [SPEAKER_01]: It feels good, but does that build a better relationship with a client? 15:31.335 --> 15:33.598 [SPEAKER_01]: Does that mean that we're gonna be able to solve their problems? 15:33.618 --> 15:37.204 [SPEAKER_01]: Does that mean that we're gonna be able to drive impact in their organization. 15:37.184 --> 15:41.774 [SPEAKER_01]: which creates more opportunities for us to do work with them and for them to recommend us to other people. 15:42.575 --> 15:56.965 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's a tactical victory strategic loss and I think so often in one of the areas we see that right is when someone, someone feels like they're sticking up for their team inside an organization and let's say one department maybe gets 15:56.945 --> 16:11.863 [SPEAKER_01]: They get called out in a meeting or something like that and sometimes you have a leader that will stand up for their team and push back and really create some take it to the other department heads that are pointing fingers at their team and it feels good. 16:11.903 --> 16:26.260 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a tactical win and yet it's a strategic loser all day long because now they're just burning bridges, instead of building better relationships, they're creating 16:26.240 --> 16:26.541 [SPEAKER_01]: team. 16:26.561 --> 16:30.330 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's it's the same thing when you're showing people that you're right. 16:30.971 --> 16:37.988 [SPEAKER_01]: It feels good for a brief second and then after that you're like wow that that didn't that doesn't get me where I want to go. 16:38.356 --> 16:48.008 [SPEAKER_00]: I learned that exact lesson, the hard way, when I was at San Diego State University, and I was doing exactly what you described, which was standing up for my board of students. 16:48.028 --> 16:50.771 [SPEAKER_00]: So I ran a advised board of 60 students. 16:51.512 --> 16:53.975 [SPEAKER_00]: And I can't remember the whole, I can't even remember the whole situation. 16:53.995 --> 16:59.442 [SPEAKER_00]: This is how crazy it is, how emotionally invested I was, but I did that exact thing. 16:59.562 --> 17:00.443 [SPEAKER_00]: I stood up for them. 17:00.463 --> 17:07.772 [SPEAKER_00]: I made this claim on their behalf, and the outcome was that I had to do damage control afterwards. 17:07.752 --> 17:09.675 [SPEAKER_00]: with other people across the organization. 17:09.715 --> 17:16.284 [SPEAKER_00]: And I learned that from my mentor at that time, obviously I didn't have extreme ownership, or this wouldn't have been a thing. 17:16.365 --> 17:20.951 [SPEAKER_00]: But I learned in that moment something show we said, don't send the email. 17:21.011 --> 17:23.194 [SPEAKER_00]: You can write the email, don't send it. 17:23.615 --> 17:27.060 [SPEAKER_00]: And I made a mistake of sending it with good intent to 17:27.040 --> 17:33.086 [SPEAKER_00]: to stand up for people that I cared about and really thought this is going to help, and it did help my short-term relationships with my students. 17:33.146 --> 17:47.061 [SPEAKER_00]: They saw that I was an advocate for them, but it put us at a disadvantage because now I had to do some relationship building because we needed the group that I was frustrated with to get things approved for the rest of the college campus. 17:47.081 --> 17:48.702 [SPEAKER_00]: So, I learned that the hard way. 17:48.923 --> 17:51.225 [SPEAKER_02]: Grand Uler of the Man Tactics. 17:51.374 --> 17:54.858 [SPEAKER_02]: don't even put the email address in the too far. 17:54.878 --> 17:55.599 [SPEAKER_02]: Don't even do that. 17:56.340 --> 17:58.082 [SPEAKER_02]: Because I've accidentally sent emails. 17:58.102 --> 18:01.687 [SPEAKER_02]: They weren't bad emails, but I just halfway done writing an email and you accidentally hit send. 18:02.147 --> 18:11.219 [SPEAKER_02]: But when you have a gnarly email that you broke with one finger at a time and pressed those keys really hard as you wrote an angry email, don't put the address in there. 18:11.619 --> 18:13.041 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe just open a warned doc. 18:13.101 --> 18:16.605 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think I would say that in a private file somewhere. 18:16.826 --> 18:17.386 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 18:17.567 --> 18:20.250 [SPEAKER_01]: Don't, don't CCL on that email. 18:21.142 --> 18:25.570 [SPEAKER_00]: So we're talking, you mentioned the tactical win and the strategic loss. 18:25.610 --> 18:27.072 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think this is a good example of that. 18:27.133 --> 18:31.620 [SPEAKER_00]: You can be factually right, but you're going to lose strategically in the long run. 18:31.640 --> 18:34.485 [SPEAKER_00]: And so as we talk about, what is the cost of being right? 18:34.586 --> 18:35.367 [SPEAKER_00]: What is that cost? 18:35.407 --> 18:37.250 [SPEAKER_00]: If we put our foot down, we dig in. 18:37.290 --> 18:40.356 [SPEAKER_00]: We ensure that the people around us know we're right. 18:40.416 --> 18:41.698 [SPEAKER_00]: What is the actual cost there? 18:42.134 --> 18:46.743 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, when, you know, the expression, what is it two steps forward and one step back? 18:47.685 --> 18:52.213 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that you have to, you know, same thing when you look at the stock market, right? 18:52.314 --> 18:59.868 [SPEAKER_02]: Over time, it goes up and down, up and down, but broadly speaking, over a long expanded period of time, it goes up. 19:00.610 --> 19:04.497 [SPEAKER_02]: So taking some little tactical losses, 19:04.477 --> 19:05.439 [SPEAKER_02]: is fine. 19:05.900 --> 19:16.579 [SPEAKER_02]: As long as you're broadly going to build that relationship, but if you're tactically winning over and over again, but broadly speaking, your relationship is decaying. 19:17.120 --> 19:18.442 [SPEAKER_02]: That is what you have to watch out for. 19:18.843 --> 19:21.287 [SPEAKER_02]: And the weird thing about that, and I think where people... 19:21.267 --> 19:25.956 [SPEAKER_02]: find themselves in a bad position, is that they don't recognize that. 19:26.136 --> 19:31.566 [SPEAKER_02]: They don't recognize whether it's, you know, that it's like the boiling frog, right? 19:31.586 --> 19:34.451 [SPEAKER_02]: You put the frog in the water and you just turn it up a little bit at a time. 19:34.872 --> 19:37.116 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, when I do something, 19:37.096 --> 19:57.147 [SPEAKER_02]: When I win an argument with you or I utilize my plan instead of yours, these all might be little tiny things that, and even there's been plenty of times I've been like, hey, well, Jamie actually, we really need to do this and you've been like, okay, I've had to do that to a number of times, but each one of those was like, just a little downcheck in our relationship. 19:57.481 --> 19:59.803 [SPEAKER_02]: But broadly speaking, it's like, oh yeah, Jamie will do it. 19:59.923 --> 20:00.724 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, your way makes sense. 20:00.764 --> 20:01.585 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, go ahead and you do that. 20:01.605 --> 20:03.206 [SPEAKER_02]: Yep, I'm not worried about it. 20:03.246 --> 20:07.931 [SPEAKER_02]: I trust you going, and so most of the time, it's going, it's going up, it's going up, it's going up. 20:08.191 --> 20:11.134 [SPEAKER_02]: But I think where people lose is I go, oh well, Jamie, we're gonna do it my way. 20:11.955 --> 20:14.637 [SPEAKER_02]: And then I say, hey, Jamie, actually, I'm gonna micromanage you on that. 20:15.018 --> 20:16.659 [SPEAKER_02]: And then Jamie, you know what, we're gonna use a font that I use. 20:16.899 --> 20:23.826 [SPEAKER_02]: And I don't realize these little tiny steps that I'm taking, they're little tiny steps, they're almost insignificant. 20:23.806 --> 20:24.608 [SPEAKER_02]: almost insignificant. 20:24.889 --> 20:32.950 [SPEAKER_02]: You and I right now like you could you could slap me in the face and throw the drink at me and run out and it would literally not eat impact our relationship at all. 20:32.970 --> 20:35.577 [SPEAKER_02]: I would be like, oh, I wonder, you know, it must be something going on with Jamie. 20:35.597 --> 20:36.700 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I don't what's happening. 20:36.740 --> 20:39.587 [SPEAKER_02]: It wouldn't literally wouldn't impact our relationship. 20:39.837 --> 20:45.764 [SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, these little things that people do, these little microaggressions, right? 20:46.045 --> 20:48.067 [SPEAKER_02]: Little microflexes of your ego. 20:48.528 --> 20:50.510 [SPEAKER_02]: Little micro-diss respects. 20:50.611 --> 20:52.193 [SPEAKER_02]: Little micro, I'm not listening to you. 20:52.253 --> 20:53.734 [SPEAKER_02]: Little micro, I don't trust you. 20:54.195 --> 20:56.498 [SPEAKER_02]: Little micro, you have no influence over me. 20:56.938 --> 21:02.445 [SPEAKER_02]: And what I don't realize is over a six-month period of time or a one-year period of time. 21:02.906 --> 21:04.528 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't have a relationship with you anymore. 21:04.508 --> 21:05.770 [SPEAKER_02]: And I didn't even feel it happening. 21:05.790 --> 21:08.834 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm boiled, I'm a frog, I'm boiled, and I didn't even know what happened. 21:09.314 --> 21:12.158 [SPEAKER_02]: So you really have to pay attention to you. 21:12.879 --> 21:16.664 [SPEAKER_02]: You have to take notes of these little interactions that you have with people. 21:16.884 --> 21:23.393 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's why I say, listen, every interaction I have, my goal is to build a relationship over. 21:23.894 --> 21:26.297 [SPEAKER_02]: Because otherwise, if my goal is, 21:26.277 --> 21:37.657 [SPEAKER_02]: Lena, like life said earlier, if my goal is to win the argument or my goal is to be right, and that's at the forefront of my mind, well, after two weeks, three weeks, three months of doing that, I've been right a hundred times and our relationship is terrible. 21:38.218 --> 21:46.333 [SPEAKER_02]: So you really have to pay attention to those little, those little micro moments of, are you building the relationship, or you breaking the relationship? 21:46.874 --> 21:49.298 [SPEAKER_02]: And you got to pay attention to what that trajectory looks like over time. 21:50.527 --> 21:51.770 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, I think that's awesome. 21:51.790 --> 21:55.701 [SPEAKER_00]: And I love that this transitions well into what can we do in these situations. 21:55.761 --> 22:04.826 [SPEAKER_00]: And so the immediate action draw for this episode is that next time you find yourself disagreeing with someone to touch and take a step back and remember what is the outcome. 22:04.886 --> 22:06.831 [SPEAKER_00]: What are we trying to solve together? 22:08.431 --> 22:14.077 [SPEAKER_01]: Definitely, I think when you reflect on what winning actually looks like, are you building a better relationship with that person? 22:14.577 --> 22:16.059 [SPEAKER_01]: Are you acquiring leadership capital? 22:16.700 --> 22:18.521 [SPEAKER_01]: Or are you losing that? 22:18.822 --> 22:20.483 [SPEAKER_01]: Are you creating a frictional relationship with them? 22:20.684 --> 22:32.616 [SPEAKER_01]: And so even if you are right, resist the urge for that tactical win, that feed you ego, to prove that you are right or say, I told you so, and think of ways that you can actually. 22:32.596 --> 22:41.184 [SPEAKER_01]: Let ask questions, take the indirect approach to let them reveal the two to themselves and so that you can build a better relationship and win in the long run. 22:42.305 --> 22:44.648 [SPEAKER_02]: And I straight up just want you to be right. 22:45.388 --> 22:47.010 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to be right at all. 22:47.030 --> 22:54.237 [SPEAKER_02]: I want the person that I'm talking to, disagreement, the disagreement is because I don't understand your perspective and your perspective is going to be right. 22:54.297 --> 22:54.857 [SPEAKER_02]: That's my goal. 22:54.998 --> 22:55.698 [SPEAKER_02]: That's my mindset. 22:56.059 --> 23:01.624 [SPEAKER_02]: Let's do it.