WEBVTT 00:02.073 --> 00:07.444 [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to Sexology, a podcast that untangles the science of sex and pleasure. 00:08.005 --> 00:15.340 [SPEAKER_00]: And now, with this week's episode, your host, Clinical Psychologist, Dr. Nazinine Moali. 00:16.788 --> 00:20.231 [SPEAKER_02]: We'll come back to another episode of the Sexology podcast. 00:20.432 --> 00:23.234 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm your host, Dr. Nazanine Moolly. 00:23.555 --> 00:29.300 [SPEAKER_02]: And today we're talking about why jumping straight into sex doesn't work for many adults. 00:29.881 --> 00:38.169 [SPEAKER_02]: If you ever felt disconnected from desire, after a long, big, or worker-piant thing, it isn't because something is wrong with you. 00:38.650 --> 00:43.875 [SPEAKER_02]: It's because your nervous system hasn't transitioned into erotic, modiat. 00:43.855 --> 00:48.122 [SPEAKER_02]: arousal is a process and pacing really matters. 00:48.343 --> 01:05.172 [SPEAKER_02]: In this episode we're exploring how bread, movement and subtle nervous system cues shape foreplay what to do if one partner needs more time to warm up and how higher desire partners can stay connected without creating pressure. 01:05.152 --> 01:21.171 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm joined by Jessica Idoen, a licensed certified relationship and sex therapist who uses a trauma informed, somatic, and evidence-based approach to help couples cultivate emotional safety and sustainable desire. 01:21.872 --> 01:30.602 [SPEAKER_02]: Before we dive in, a quick note about something incredibly common, premature ejaculation, about one in three men experiences. 01:30.582 --> 01:34.928 [SPEAKER_02]: Whatever we partner with this sponsor, I personally test the product. 01:35.529 --> 01:44.883 [SPEAKER_02]: When we tried Steady Freddy, it generally made sex significantly longer, while still being pleasurable for everyone involved. 01:44.903 --> 01:59.644 [SPEAKER_02]: So if you want to use experiment with our sponsors' product Steady Freddy, you can get 15% off with code sexology at SteadyFready.com forward-sexology. 01:59.624 --> 02:04.498 [SPEAKER_02]: And, of course, make sure you're reading the labels and following directions for use. 02:04.939 --> 02:10.536 [SPEAKER_02]: You can find the link to their website in the show notes, please don't forget to use the discount code. 02:10.816 --> 02:11.418 [SPEAKER_02]: All right? 02:11.438 --> 02:14.848 [SPEAKER_02]: Let's dive in! 02:16.111 --> 02:21.338 [SPEAKER_02]: Hello and welcome back to another episode of The Sexology podcast. 02:21.478 --> 02:26.965 [SPEAKER_02]: I am so excited to welcome Jessica Innoen to our show, Jessica, but come to our show. 02:27.185 --> 02:29.348 [SPEAKER_01]: I Dr. Molly, thank you so much for having me here. 02:29.368 --> 02:31.851 [SPEAKER_02]: I am very excited about this topic. 02:32.111 --> 02:36.837 [SPEAKER_02]: I talk about forplay all the time with my clients and I'm sure you do the same. 02:36.817 --> 02:48.193 [SPEAKER_02]: And some people say, you know, it's like, you know, like, the usual stuff, like you didn't talk about, and like, two, three minutes that they do, right before getting into main events. 02:48.574 --> 02:54.582 [SPEAKER_02]: And I know many people say, like, it doesn't do anything for me in heterosexual relationship. 02:54.842 --> 02:57.166 [SPEAKER_02]: I hear women say, I'm just not turned on. 02:57.346 --> 03:00.310 [SPEAKER_02]: So that's also can be really limiting. 03:00.560 --> 03:03.985 [SPEAKER_02]: Can it tell us a little bit about a based on your experience? 03:04.025 --> 03:12.337 [SPEAKER_02]: What's actually happening in our nervous system, when we kind of go from daily life to erotic mode? 03:12.357 --> 03:13.318 [SPEAKER_01]: That is a great question. 03:13.418 --> 03:17.184 [SPEAKER_01]: So I talk about this to my clients all the time, like you said. 03:17.224 --> 03:22.231 [SPEAKER_01]: So very often, we are stuck in sympathetic activation. 03:22.251 --> 03:25.656 [SPEAKER_01]: So we can think of that as kind of the fight or flight modes in our brains. 03:25.636 --> 03:39.453 [SPEAKER_01]: So, we're problem solving, we're managing logistics, other people's needs, responding to stress, and that state is very efficient when we're trying to be productive or we're caregiving, but it's not optimized for erotic response of this. 03:40.014 --> 03:44.559 [SPEAKER_01]: So, what erotic connection requires is a nervous state shift. 03:45.040 --> 03:51.728 [SPEAKER_01]: So, they need to move out of that vigilance mode and into a state that feels safe, resource, and presence. 03:51.708 --> 04:02.587 [SPEAKER_01]: And so we do that by sort of down shifting that sympathetic nervous state response that fight or flight response and increasing parasympathetic nervous state activation. 04:03.007 --> 04:06.393 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's that relaxed, rest and digest mode. 04:06.834 --> 04:11.442 [SPEAKER_01]: And we actually need that physiologically to move into a rousal. 04:11.662 --> 04:14.627 [SPEAKER_01]: So our bodies physiologically need that to happen. 04:14.607 --> 04:43.956 [SPEAKER_01]: So I think a lot of people have heard, oh, you need at least 20 minutes for people with volvus to be able to respond with a rousal for there to be vasoconstriction, right, that blood flowed, for there to be lubrication, for vaginal tending, you know, all that's very technical, but for us to be ready, a lot of people have heard that, it needs, it takes 20, 30 minutes to do that, but that's if you're already in the right, nervous state to respond in that way. 04:43.936 --> 04:49.905 [SPEAKER_01]: to think about sex, not just as an activity, but a nervous system state that you need to get into. 04:49.925 --> 04:56.254 [SPEAKER_01]: If not, your body may actually resist even if your mind wants to connect in that way. 04:56.695 --> 04:58.518 [SPEAKER_02]: And that is so huge. 04:58.618 --> 05:07.311 [SPEAKER_02]: I know that I look with many women that sex is a painful, uncomfortable, like the vulva owners are thinking about, like what's wrong with me? 05:07.291 --> 05:11.436 [SPEAKER_02]: But when in reality, when we're talking to them, their body is not ready. 05:11.776 --> 05:22.470 [SPEAKER_02]: So I think it's a real skill to learn how to shift your nervous system and how to communicate with your partner if you need support around that shift. 05:23.110 --> 05:36.707 [SPEAKER_02]: And I know that sometimes people's mind, our minds can be very distracted and that also, like sometimes it's just might not be realistic, but at least it's important to have the ability to check in with yourself. 05:36.687 --> 05:40.271 [SPEAKER_02]: Do you have recommendations for people how to get there? 05:40.371 --> 05:48.340 [SPEAKER_02]: Like do you have activities with partner that people can go to that rest-endage just or individual that they can do it to create that reset? 05:48.360 --> 05:53.406 [SPEAKER_01]: So you can do this individually, so that's called auto or self-regulation, right? 05:53.466 --> 05:56.930 [SPEAKER_01]: So things like the physiological side, right? 05:57.151 --> 06:01.075 [SPEAKER_01]: So that you can look that up if you want to, but it's a way of breathing. 06:01.055 --> 06:08.722 [SPEAKER_01]: to extend the exhale and offset carbon dioxide, which tends to bring us into that rest in digest. 06:08.742 --> 06:14.827 [SPEAKER_01]: We can stimulate the vagus nerve, like through humming, through movement, things like that. 06:15.288 --> 06:20.633 [SPEAKER_01]: But really, when we're talking about couples therapy or at our couples coming in, they want to learn how to co-regulate. 06:20.753 --> 06:23.055 [SPEAKER_01]: How can we do that with one another? 06:23.095 --> 06:26.318 [SPEAKER_01]: So there are all sorts of ways to do that. 06:26.878 --> 06:31.062 [SPEAKER_01]: Some of the ways that you can do that 06:31.042 --> 06:47.346 [SPEAKER_01]: So softer voice tone, state gentle, make sure there's no distractions checking in with one another like you mentioned how is your body feeling right now right what kind of touch would make you feel connected right now. 06:47.326 --> 06:54.540 [SPEAKER_01]: Some other, you know, easy transition rituals include just even naming the state that you're in. 06:54.560 --> 07:05.903 [SPEAKER_01]: You don't even have to go through all of that physiological stuff where you're sitting to their care, they're calmly where you're just naming, hey, we are leaving the day behind us and we're going to come back to the two of us, right? 07:05.923 --> 07:08.608 [SPEAKER_01]: What is your body still holding on to right now? 07:08.588 --> 07:18.308 [SPEAKER_01]: And so when our nervous system fills scene, then it tends to be relaxing, so you're more open to any more ready for a rotted connection. 07:19.010 --> 07:24.521 [SPEAKER_01]: And then connection that it doesn't have any kind of expectation attached to it. 07:25.002 --> 07:27.407 [SPEAKER_01]: So I contact handholding. 07:27.387 --> 07:30.613 [SPEAKER_01]: long hugs, specifically for co-regulation. 07:30.633 --> 07:32.236 [SPEAKER_01]: We know mirroring helps. 07:32.256 --> 07:50.509 [SPEAKER_01]: So slow movements where you take turns kind of moving your arms and long strokes and having your partner pace along with that and trying to mirror that tends to elicit that co-regulation or the thinking of our nervous systems together, so we can regulate one another. 07:50.489 --> 07:54.658 [SPEAKER_01]: And then lastly, placing a container around some of these rituals is helpful. 07:54.718 --> 08:04.779 [SPEAKER_01]: So some kind of short time window, 10 minutes or something like that, where you haven't made any decisions about where you might want to go next in your day or if it's one to be erotic. 08:05.139 --> 08:07.184 [SPEAKER_01]: And you could kind of make that decision at the end. 08:07.224 --> 08:08.486 [SPEAKER_01]: Do we want more touch? 08:08.527 --> 08:09.729 [SPEAKER_01]: Do we want more connection? 08:09.789 --> 08:11.653 [SPEAKER_01]: Is there something else we're looking for? 08:11.633 --> 08:23.950 [SPEAKER_01]: So those are just a few nervous system friendly co-regulation rituals that you can do before not even just moving into erotic connection but even just connecting in general. 08:24.371 --> 08:34.485 [SPEAKER_02]: Just to get these are beautiful offerings and practical things people can do and I specifically find the last one very helpful for my clients because 08:34.465 --> 08:46.458 [SPEAKER_02]: First of all, for even for people that are sex less, there's really one sex that touch, they become touch-starred because they feel like if there is touch involved, there needs to be promise of we're going to have sex. 08:46.999 --> 09:03.477 [SPEAKER_02]: So, and just like that also on its own, create this nervousness that they're kind of like the partner with low desire as they're getting touch, they're just actually more nervous because they feel at my arouse and how am I going to 09:03.457 --> 09:06.783 [SPEAKER_02]: suffering and pain and disregulation. 09:06.803 --> 09:11.632 [SPEAKER_02]: I like that kind of like thinking about this like as an investment to your erotic bank. 09:12.133 --> 09:25.178 [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe you're doing a massage, maybe doing kind of like touching, holding, it might not lead right now to sex, but you're adding money to the erotic band bank for future and that is very, very powerful. 09:25.158 --> 09:34.688 [SPEAKER_02]: And sometimes for many people feeling hurt is really, as you said, it's house with co-regulation and it's very even erotic. 09:34.708 --> 09:52.667 [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like it's one of those not utilized for people because I feel like, you know, like my partner knows that I get them, but I know especially for kind of a heterosexual relationship oftentimes when women feel hurt by their partner that's also 09:53.052 --> 09:55.515 [SPEAKER_02]: But it also we get people that are to feel the same. 09:55.555 --> 09:59.540 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm totally disconnected from my desire in this season of life. 09:59.660 --> 10:04.707 [SPEAKER_02]: I know at the specifically talking about asexual individuals, because we know it's orientation. 10:04.767 --> 10:07.490 [SPEAKER_02]: It's not something that we can force that you can cultivate it. 10:07.991 --> 10:17.963 [SPEAKER_02]: But for people that they had the desire, and now they lost it, what do you recommend them to do in the context of partner experiences? 10:17.943 --> 10:20.188 [SPEAKER_01]: So I say start with nervous state. 10:20.289 --> 10:22.614 [SPEAKER_01]: So start with your state over stimulation. 10:22.795 --> 10:25.481 [SPEAKER_01]: So some people might think, hey, I'm disconnected from it. 10:25.602 --> 10:28.048 [SPEAKER_01]: So I need more touch more stimulation. 10:28.108 --> 10:31.336 [SPEAKER_01]: Again, to start with the nervous system, right? 10:31.376 --> 10:35.125 [SPEAKER_01]: So often we are in nervous system overload, like we said. 10:35.105 --> 10:46.358 [SPEAKER_01]: not just the chronic stress, but in mental preoccupation, but also some times it's relational, like subdual resentment and things like that can suppress erotic stimulation. 10:46.398 --> 10:50.483 [SPEAKER_01]: So checking in with yourself, what state am I in right now? 10:50.563 --> 10:51.224 [SPEAKER_01]: Are you tense? 10:51.264 --> 10:51.845 [SPEAKER_01]: Are you numb? 10:51.885 --> 10:53.246 [SPEAKER_01]: Are you overstimulated? 10:53.306 --> 10:54.748 [SPEAKER_01]: Are you depleted? 10:54.808 --> 10:56.810 [SPEAKER_01]: What is it you need right now? 10:57.111 --> 11:00.775 [SPEAKER_01]: And then instead of trying to force desire, begin with regulation. 11:00.815 --> 11:04.960 [SPEAKER_01]: Like what we talked about, the auto regulation, that co-regulation, 11:04.940 --> 11:05.401 [SPEAKER_01]: helpful. 11:05.862 --> 11:23.050 [SPEAKER_02]: I like that kind of like sometimes our body has the wisdom of what it needs and kind of like listening to it and and supporting it that can be very helpful and you know you you also know that there was this like very well known study that then in Canada that people kind of like 11:23.030 --> 11:28.857 [SPEAKER_02]: to just practicing mindfulness, which is like calming down your nervous system, their desire improved. 11:29.318 --> 11:33.383 [SPEAKER_02]: And sometimes it doesn't need that you have to do something very sexual. 11:33.824 --> 11:40.592 [SPEAKER_02]: So you can still see result even if it's more focusing on non-erotic thing that calm your nervous system. 11:40.812 --> 11:41.433 [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely. 11:41.493 --> 11:42.895 [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely. 11:42.875 --> 11:59.579 [SPEAKER_01]: and this is even more important if there's some kind of desire mismatch between a couple where one has much higher desire than the other, right, that we are tuned in with where that person is at and that there is not any kind of performance pressure, right? 11:59.799 --> 12:09.473 [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely, you know, one of the things that's really helpful in drawing long-term relationship are this creating this, as you mentioned, 12:09.453 --> 12:17.481 [SPEAKER_02]: I remember I was much younger as my 20s and I was one of the sex conference and they were talking about Rachel. 12:17.561 --> 12:18.883 [SPEAKER_02]: What they're talking about? 12:18.903 --> 12:20.144 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I'm on like this. 12:21.605 --> 12:24.528 [SPEAKER_02]: But now I'm in a long-term relationship. 12:24.689 --> 12:29.654 [SPEAKER_02]: You need that transition at times and the ritual can be very helpful. 12:29.754 --> 12:33.678 [SPEAKER_02]: So what are some of your favorite ritual that you recommend people to consider? 12:33.738 --> 12:36.861 [SPEAKER_02]: How do you recommend them to create that safe container? 12:36.841 --> 12:43.899 [SPEAKER_01]: So one of the things that I suggest is focusing on sensations and tracking the nervous system. 12:44.621 --> 12:53.584 [SPEAKER_01]: So you can get into a, you know, like I said, it contains period of time, 10 minutes, 20 minutes, whatever works for the two of you. 12:53.564 --> 12:55.328 [SPEAKER_01]: where it's non-goal oriented. 12:55.368 --> 12:57.072 [SPEAKER_01]: We're not trying to reach orgasm. 12:57.092 --> 12:58.435 [SPEAKER_01]: We're not trying to get to pleasure. 12:58.495 --> 13:02.445 [SPEAKER_01]: We're explicitly noticing safety activation. 13:02.505 --> 13:07.817 [SPEAKER_01]: If there's any sense of urgency that anyone's feeling any signs of shutdown. 13:07.857 --> 13:12.147 [SPEAKER_01]: So we used a consent-based micro-adjustments. 13:12.127 --> 13:22.222 [SPEAKER_01]: So it could be based on sensation, more pressure, less pressure, things like that, but it could even be something as simple as saying more, less, same, different, right? 13:22.302 --> 13:25.206 [SPEAKER_01]: In order to communicate that, slow down, right? 13:25.266 --> 13:29.051 [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, the ability to say stop at any point, right? 13:29.111 --> 13:34.039 [SPEAKER_01]: So for some people, they need that transition time, that non-demand transition time. 13:34.099 --> 13:37.864 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's the number one intervention that I suggest. 13:37.844 --> 13:43.033 [SPEAKER_01]: another one like I talked about mirroring and you could do this sitting face to face. 13:43.393 --> 13:47.861 [SPEAKER_01]: So Chris Cross Apple saws with your knees touching, let's say, it is a good place to do it. 13:48.381 --> 13:52.849 [SPEAKER_01]: You can't even do it, say laying down in bed with less movement, right? 13:53.490 --> 13:59.059 [SPEAKER_01]: Another transition ritual, which will help us be connected to our rauticism movement. 13:59.039 --> 14:09.723 [SPEAKER_01]: So a lot of us think of the biggest nerve as something that helps us to calm down, but actually in contemporary knowledge, we now know that the biggest nerve can actually energize us. 14:10.505 --> 14:14.213 [SPEAKER_01]: And so if you found yourself shut down in the day, 14:14.193 --> 14:14.754 [SPEAKER_01]: Touched out. 14:14.834 --> 14:15.134 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't. 14:15.254 --> 14:16.857 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't really want to do anything. 14:17.377 --> 14:18.579 [SPEAKER_01]: I mostly want to connect with you. 14:18.599 --> 14:20.241 [SPEAKER_01]: But I just don't feel like moving. 14:20.321 --> 14:34.480 [SPEAKER_01]: I've exhausted that a little bit of sway with one another like slow dancing or even just kind of swaying back and forth times to illicit a responsive of energy and wanting more touch. 14:34.460 --> 14:35.942 [SPEAKER_01]: So you can stimulate that. 14:35.962 --> 14:38.105 [SPEAKER_01]: It's okay if you don't necessarily feel that way. 14:38.425 --> 14:39.767 [SPEAKER_01]: But again, non-demand. 14:40.368 --> 14:42.010 [SPEAKER_01]: So we're not going to promise anything. 14:42.151 --> 14:43.753 [SPEAKER_01]: We're just going to do this together. 14:43.813 --> 14:47.478 [SPEAKER_01]: So it depends on where you're coming from right now. 14:48.039 --> 15:00.055 [SPEAKER_01]: But again, no matter what ritual you use, connecting with how this touch helps your body to feel safe, whatever that looks like, whether you need something that's a little more energizing or something that's a little bit more calming. 15:00.215 --> 15:02.138 [SPEAKER_01]: So whatever ritual you choose, 15:02.118 --> 15:12.912 [SPEAKER_01]: I would suggest that you don't necessarily have just one ritual that you and your partner use, that you have a little tool set of rituals based on what state your body is in right now. 15:13.293 --> 15:14.795 [SPEAKER_01]: And what's taking nervous system is in. 15:14.955 --> 15:16.297 [SPEAKER_02]: I like that. 15:16.357 --> 15:23.066 [SPEAKER_02]: And I kind of like having the toolbox and experiment with it and having this communication is so so important. 15:23.086 --> 15:26.370 [SPEAKER_02]: I have a couple of couples, and I'm sure that's your experience, do that. 15:26.350 --> 15:40.600 [SPEAKER_02]: are together for years in my practice, they talk about everything, but when it comes to micro-suggestions about kind of like, or macro around sexual experiences, they don't have the language. 15:40.620 --> 15:47.194 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think one of the difficult things to talk about is about saying no to your partner. 15:47.174 --> 15:57.550 [SPEAKER_02]: especially that if you know that it's been a while since you had sex and now you said yes to do like this massage and you just you're not feeling it. 15:58.090 --> 16:04.460 [SPEAKER_02]: How would you recommend people to graciously say no and how to receive the know? 16:04.921 --> 16:09.267 [SPEAKER_02]: All the other is some back kind of back energy backed up energy around that. 16:09.247 --> 16:10.289 [SPEAKER_01]: I love that question. 16:10.309 --> 16:13.175 [SPEAKER_01]: That comes up so much in my practice. 16:13.737 --> 16:21.193 [SPEAKER_01]: I would say that one thing that's helpful is that when you connect in these ways that it really shouldn't be attached to a specific outcome. 16:21.674 --> 16:26.985 [SPEAKER_01]: So the connection that you have during this ritual is the goal not sex. 16:26.965 --> 16:39.696 [SPEAKER_01]: So that means that the partner who maybe has lower desire in that moment, or is an interested needs to be willing to share that information and try not to take on the frustration of their partner. 16:39.757 --> 16:56.972 [SPEAKER_01]: While the higher desire partner in that moment also needs to tolerate that frustration and understand that that connection ritual was helpful in getting their nervous system ready for future interaction. 16:56.952 --> 17:06.809 [SPEAKER_01]: But something that can be helpful if you're not feeling it in that moment is to to share, you know, I'm still feeling XYZ and my body right now. 17:06.829 --> 17:10.535 [SPEAKER_01]: I would love to connect more in this way. 17:10.655 --> 17:15.163 [SPEAKER_01]: So you share what it is that you would like to do instead can be helpful. 17:15.143 --> 17:29.489 [SPEAKER_01]: Or even just letting them know, if there isn't something like that right, I cannot get this work brief out of my head, I do need to do this, but I'd love to connect with you at this time, right, after work tomorrow or whatever time that is. 17:30.070 --> 17:36.882 [SPEAKER_01]: So share your excitement about future connection, whether that's in that moment or in the future, whatever that looks like. 17:36.862 --> 17:51.409 [SPEAKER_01]: So that the partner is not taking that as a rejection of them and the connection with them more that they're not in the state to participate in the suggested behavior, right, which typically is like some kind of sex, right? 17:51.910 --> 17:55.417 [SPEAKER_01]: But you know, I'm not in the state for that by one of be connected with you. 17:55.497 --> 17:58.903 [SPEAKER_01]: Can we continue coddling for another five or ten minutes? 17:58.883 --> 18:01.866 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know that these are beautiful, beautiful suggestions. 18:02.106 --> 18:28.772 [SPEAKER_02]: One is kind of thinking about it as investment and kind of like already you see that like you had this moments of connection with your partner and it's on its own that that is valuable and it's investment in the relationship the other thing you mentioned is that some people find it useful if they have a time I would like if I'm a receiver of that I would feel better if my partner says like honey, but like tomorrow morning I'm off from work. 18:28.752 --> 18:32.658 [SPEAKER_02]: Let's, let's reconvene there and kind of like say I'm excited about that. 18:33.099 --> 18:37.166 [SPEAKER_02]: But some people also because there is this history and they're just so scared. 18:37.486 --> 18:48.685 [SPEAKER_02]: They're just even scared to talk about like give a time line, but as kind of a for many people with long history of these patterns, people just go to sex therapy and. 18:48.665 --> 18:51.089 [SPEAKER_02]: there, because of therapy to change those patterns. 18:51.209 --> 18:56.637 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's like partly DIY, partly if it's not working, doesn't mean you're failing. 18:56.657 --> 18:59.080 [SPEAKER_02]: You need additional consultation around that. 18:59.741 --> 19:02.746 [SPEAKER_02]: And also I think for their receiver, right? 19:02.786 --> 19:07.713 [SPEAKER_02]: It's really helpful to think about your partner is not denying you. 19:07.733 --> 19:14.723 [SPEAKER_02]: It might feel that way in that moment or rejecting you, it's a circumstances at the same way that if you were getting 19:14.703 --> 19:21.956 [SPEAKER_02]: knock on the door and something urgent came up or like you have a baby and baby is up is the no one's fault but now the sex is on pause. 19:21.976 --> 19:24.882 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's kind of the same situation hopefully you care about your baby. 19:24.922 --> 19:29.189 [SPEAKER_02]: So that's kind of like thinking about it from the outside. 19:29.670 --> 19:33.577 [SPEAKER_02]: I kind of like perspective we just had a baby that's why it's very fresh in my mind. 19:33.597 --> 19:35.040 [SPEAKER_02]: Here we have lots of instructions. 19:37.417 --> 19:53.181 [SPEAKER_02]: So I think it's really important to kind of like have think about it as this shared experience instead of my partner this story that comes for you that my partner is rejecting me or the never interested in me if you want to make sure that you are you're changing this pattern. 19:53.161 --> 19:53.742 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, of course. 19:53.842 --> 19:54.743 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, absolutely. 19:54.823 --> 20:05.493 [SPEAKER_01]: And then another thing I thought to mention, or I just remembered from earlier that I think it's important to mention, is that if you Google this, you will find, hey, shared breaths will connect to you. 20:05.513 --> 20:06.674 [SPEAKER_01]: That's co-regulating. 20:06.714 --> 20:11.539 [SPEAKER_01]: Often, I have clients telling me before they came to see me, hey, they already tried that. 20:11.559 --> 20:12.640 [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't work, right? 20:13.281 --> 20:23.050 [SPEAKER_01]: And one of the reports that I often hear is that there's a lot of pressure around how the shared breaths should go, 20:23.030 --> 20:31.943 [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, so as I inhale, you're inhaling and as we exhale exhale, right at the same time or vice versa, right, I inhale will you exhale. 20:32.363 --> 20:45.723 [SPEAKER_01]: But luckily we know from the research that you can regulate one another through kind of a lagged approach where it's more about a two mid with one another than physiologically experiencing the same thing at the same time. 20:46.143 --> 20:47.485 [SPEAKER_01]: So that means that. 20:47.465 --> 20:58.179 [SPEAKER_01]: If you are intentionally breathing together within close proximity, you don't need to focus on sinking up, you will still be able to co-regulate through that shared breath. 20:58.640 --> 21:07.752 [SPEAKER_01]: So all of these rituals that I'm mentioning, if you integrate some period of shared breath, you will only be able to accentuate that ritual. 21:07.973 --> 21:14.181 [SPEAKER_01]: And that could be a ritual in and of itself, just a couple of minutes of shared breath and then naming the state you're in. 21:14.161 --> 21:24.399 [SPEAKER_02]: I find it very powerful when couple do what you were talking about, like sitting in front of each other and kind of like creating this rhythmic breathing, whether it's perfect or not. 21:24.439 --> 21:32.052 [SPEAKER_02]: Also in that process, like eye contact and eye gazing on its own, it can be very erotic. 21:32.032 --> 21:34.860 [SPEAKER_02]: and I have people they say, I can't look at my partner's eyes. 21:34.960 --> 21:36.083 [SPEAKER_02]: It feels too intimate. 21:36.404 --> 21:37.848 [SPEAKER_02]: She's like, it's very interesting. 21:37.868 --> 21:42.461 [SPEAKER_02]: That's an idea of, like, I know for so many people, nor diverge, and then that could be something else. 21:42.922 --> 21:47.053 [SPEAKER_02]: But that also can create another level of spark and excitement. 21:47.033 --> 21:47.955 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah. 21:48.396 --> 21:58.274 [SPEAKER_01]: So we know as clinicians that the intervention could be quite powerful, like you said, that it, you know, really elicits this deep powerful sense of intimacy. 21:58.294 --> 22:03.043 [SPEAKER_01]: And so this is often on the list for co-regulating with one another. 22:03.083 --> 22:04.586 [SPEAKER_01]: I contact it's an intervention. 22:04.646 --> 22:07.692 [SPEAKER_01]: I certainly use in my practice with my couples. 22:07.672 --> 22:12.620 [SPEAKER_01]: what we know is we actually do not need eye contact to co-regulate. 22:12.720 --> 22:23.296 [SPEAKER_01]: So at least we could do be doing more research on that, but the research so far shows that not necessarily eye contact is necessary for any kind of co-regulation. 22:23.336 --> 22:31.148 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's the good news for those who are neurodevergent and others who maybe have any kind of discomfort with eye contact. 22:31.128 --> 22:42.500 [SPEAKER_01]: But nonetheless, eye contact is a part of what helps us to receive each other's physiological signals so that we can really sense the state that our partner is. 22:43.020 --> 22:44.982 [SPEAKER_01]: We don't want it to be mind-reading. 22:45.142 --> 22:46.544 [SPEAKER_01]: We do want to check in, right? 22:47.445 --> 22:50.108 [SPEAKER_01]: But it helps to be a tune to your partner. 22:50.228 --> 22:57.355 [SPEAKER_01]: So whether or not it helps with specifically co-regulation, we do know that it really helps to tap into your partner. 22:57.335 --> 23:00.679 [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, starting off with a short amount of time is helpful. 23:00.899 --> 23:11.510 [SPEAKER_01]: Even just 30 seconds, one minute of eye contact, and allow for there to be some laughter and some discomfort that you have to shift through. 23:11.530 --> 23:17.937 [SPEAKER_01]: And I recommend if you are struggling with that, that you take a little bit more time on the exercise. 23:18.157 --> 23:20.179 [SPEAKER_01]: You don't have to do it on one shot, right? 23:20.620 --> 23:23.663 [SPEAKER_01]: But kind of desensitize yourself to the discomfort of it. 23:23.643 --> 23:31.432 [SPEAKER_01]: so that you can get through the masking of humor that might come up so you can get to that deeper level of intimacy that you're talking about. 23:31.892 --> 23:40.181 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure you've seen that some of your clients really have difficulty with this even if it's not difficulty with eye contact in general. 23:40.381 --> 23:44.746 [SPEAKER_02]: I kind of like echo what you said about that humor and like laughter. 23:44.826 --> 23:46.468 [SPEAKER_02]: I have people say we cannot do that. 23:46.488 --> 23:47.589 [SPEAKER_02]: It's not laughing. 23:47.609 --> 23:48.611 [SPEAKER_02]: It's just uncomfortable. 23:48.651 --> 23:50.493 [SPEAKER_02]: It's a different mechanism, right? 23:51.694 --> 23:53.616 [SPEAKER_02]: So 23:53.596 --> 24:10.761 [SPEAKER_02]: regulate your emotion, get rid of some anxiety and kind of like when you are in that more of a kind of regulated place, like you can kind of like connect and kind of like just to the erotic space, which is very important for many people that they want to connect sexually. 24:10.741 --> 24:17.548 [SPEAKER_02]: So for people who, like, they are kind of like, so we have, I feel like bigger signal that our body is not ready. 24:17.608 --> 24:25.376 [SPEAKER_02]: What are some subtle signs that someone's nervous system isn't ready for touch or or or autism yet? 24:25.676 --> 24:34.004 [SPEAKER_01]: I love this question because this is something that people aren't even always consciously aware of themselves to be able to report it to their partner, right? 24:34.545 --> 24:39.550 [SPEAKER_01]: So 24:39.530 --> 24:43.619 [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes they're giving minimal eye contact compared to their baseline that they were before. 24:43.659 --> 24:59.513 [SPEAKER_01]: Distracted responses are not responding at all, certainly flat tone of voice, pulling away slightly from your touch, and then a lack of spontaneous touch themselves, especially compared to a baseline that you've noticed in the past. 24:59.493 --> 25:06.205 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's really important to understand often when people are shut down or even completely dissociated, right? 25:06.305 --> 25:09.150 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's almost like they're not completely there in the moment. 25:09.671 --> 25:18.666 [SPEAKER_01]: Oftentimes people don't realize that they've made it into that state or by the time they have, they're not able to articulate it because they are dysregulated, they are shut down, right? 25:18.646 --> 25:28.540 [SPEAKER_01]: So rather than, you know, trying to interpret and necessarily from some of these signals, what you can do is you could say, okay, I'm noticing these things that I know are associated with shut down. 25:28.920 --> 25:29.821 [SPEAKER_01]: So let me check in. 25:29.861 --> 25:31.764 [SPEAKER_01]: Are you feeling present right now? 25:32.064 --> 25:35.649 [SPEAKER_01]: I ask asking that question specifically, not does this feel good? 25:35.669 --> 25:36.891 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you like this? 25:36.871 --> 25:42.099 [SPEAKER_01]: because that can be attached to a performance orientation, right? 25:42.159 --> 25:51.614 [SPEAKER_01]: Especially when there's been this dynamic in the past where their partner shut down because of pain or sexual trauma or something like that, where they don't like that they respond that way. 25:51.694 --> 25:55.240 [SPEAKER_01]: They wish that they could be more responsive to their partner in the moment. 25:55.621 --> 26:02.912 [SPEAKER_01]: So if you're attaching it to does this feel good, a part of them might say, I mean, it feels good to be connected to you, 26:02.892 --> 26:06.979 [SPEAKER_01]: So if they don't want to say no to that, so rather than, you know, does this feel good? 26:07.000 --> 26:08.061 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you like this, right? 26:08.602 --> 26:10.165 [SPEAKER_01]: Are you feeling present right now? 26:10.426 --> 26:14.774 [SPEAKER_01]: Which kind of takes out the evaluation of whether this is a good or a bad interaction? 26:14.814 --> 26:16.417 [SPEAKER_01]: It's again back to the state. 26:16.918 --> 26:18.741 [SPEAKER_01]: Are you in the state for this? 26:18.721 --> 26:26.514 [SPEAKER_01]: so that they're able to hopefully respond or if they can't, then that's a sign that they've really, they're not ready for that kind of interaction. 26:26.694 --> 26:29.498 [SPEAKER_01]: And this can happen not just in sex, right? 26:29.518 --> 26:32.704 [SPEAKER_01]: But even in the ritual, the rituals we're talking about. 26:33.104 --> 26:36.149 [SPEAKER_01]: So even in the gentlest of touch, people can shut down. 26:36.570 --> 26:40.476 [SPEAKER_01]: So you want to look for these signs to be able to know when to check in with your partner. 26:40.456 --> 26:48.273 [SPEAKER_02]: I so like it, like in a neutral kind of invitation versus kind of saying that are you into it or are you turned on? 26:48.313 --> 27:00.439 [SPEAKER_02]: The chicken I understand maybe because of the history you might get defensive but the more neutral I'm inviting you keep the tone, the more authentic response you will get. 27:00.419 --> 27:05.545 [SPEAKER_02]: So for people, like, bitterly they want to practice with themselves or with someone else. 27:06.126 --> 27:15.558 [SPEAKER_02]: What is one small shift that you can be kind of like an experiment to feel safer and more kind of experience more eroticism? 27:15.939 --> 27:18.882 [SPEAKER_01]: Name the state you're in before any kind of touch, right? 27:18.962 --> 27:21.285 [SPEAKER_01]: So you share this with one another. 27:21.325 --> 27:25.511 [SPEAKER_01]: For instance, I'm feeling a little stressed right now, but I want to be here. 27:25.531 --> 27:28.114 [SPEAKER_01]: Or I'm feeling tender tonight. 27:28.094 --> 27:35.769 [SPEAKER_01]: Wherever you're at, we want to provide the context because then that reduces misinterpretation, right? 27:36.390 --> 27:49.275 [SPEAKER_01]: So rather than the guess work of, oh, I guess they're just not feeling very connected to me, maybe they're upset about a small, you know, we're got a little incident we had yesterday that you're not coming up with a story or a narrative around it. 27:49.255 --> 28:05.045 [SPEAKER_01]: you're actually finding out what's going on, and then that not just helps the partner who's receiving that information, but helps the partner who's sharing it because then you understand your partner gets where you're coming from and should, you know, be accommodating of that, right? 28:05.065 --> 28:11.618 [SPEAKER_01]: So you have the expectation that they understand where you're coming from and not judging you for your response at this. 28:11.598 --> 28:28.577 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think I love that and I think sometimes it's helpful to ask a person if you want to talk about it or it's just something you want to share because sometimes if a partner might say I'm stressed but I'm present the other partner feel that kind of obligation and I have to take in and kind of like 28:28.557 --> 28:42.038 [SPEAKER_02]: talk about everything else which could be positive thing that if you want to show off for your partner, but I think it's just the idea right now is just naming it or naming it so we can be present and see how are we going to escalate things or not. 28:42.619 --> 28:45.122 [SPEAKER_02]: So I think that's also something that's helpful to keep me on. 28:45.303 --> 28:51.031 [SPEAKER_01]: Important clarification there, yeah, this is not an invitation for fixing for problem solving. 28:51.512 --> 28:55.999 [SPEAKER_01]: Certainly that's something that could be discussed later, but in this context 28:55.979 --> 29:05.113 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's a very clear Jessica that you're wealth of great information and I'm sure many people want to learn more about you, about your workshop, three treats. 29:05.594 --> 29:08.899 [SPEAKER_02]: Can you tell us a little bit about working people find you? 29:09.260 --> 29:19.656 [SPEAKER_01]: Sure, you can find me at JessicaItoan.com as well as I'm the founder of Expensive Connections Retreat so you could also find me at E.C. 29:19.756 --> 29:24.163 [SPEAKER_01]: Retreats or Expensive Connection 29:24.143 --> 29:29.490 [SPEAKER_01]: And as well, I also work for creating change LA for those of you in California. 29:29.550 --> 29:31.993 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a sex and relationship therapist. 29:32.213 --> 29:35.657 [SPEAKER_01]: So you could find me at creatingChangeLA.com as well. 29:35.697 --> 29:38.201 [SPEAKER_01]: Any one of those places will work? 29:38.721 --> 29:41.405 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, thank you so much for being so generous with your time. 29:41.525 --> 29:46.411 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for sharing all this resources and the link to the URLs you mentioned. 29:46.431 --> 29:47.873 [SPEAKER_02]: We'll be in the show notes. 29:48.073 --> 29:50.556 [SPEAKER_02]: Hopefully we'll 29:50.536 --> 29:52.718 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, actually, I do have one more thing, too. 29:52.818 --> 29:53.178 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. 29:53.519 --> 30:04.109 [SPEAKER_01]: If this conversation resonated with any of your listeners, I also have a free nervous system and foreign foreplay companion guide that I uploaded to jeskaidwin.com. 30:04.489 --> 30:07.252 [SPEAKER_01]: So it matches physiological linkage patterns. 30:07.292 --> 30:18.062 [SPEAKER_01]: So the nervous state patterns that we tend to get into in different circumstances like sexual pain and pursue a distance or 30:18.042 --> 30:25.816 [SPEAKER_01]: It gives practical transition rituals and it helps you move from insights that we've got we gained today into embodied connection. 30:26.317 --> 30:28.821 [SPEAKER_01]: So you can download it there at JustGridWined.com. 30:28.841 --> 30:29.382 [SPEAKER_02]: Beautiful. 30:29.422 --> 30:31.105 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, thank you for that resource. 30:31.346 --> 30:32.227 [SPEAKER_02]: And thank you for your time. 30:32.307 --> 30:33.069 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much. 30:33.109 --> 30:33.850 [SPEAKER_02]: Dr. Mulai. 30:34.171 --> 30:34.431 [SPEAKER_00]: Bye, Dad. 30:38.528 --> 30:45.395 [SPEAKER_02]: As we wrap up, I hope today's conversation help you see that intimacy isn't about rushing toward touch. 30:46.056 --> 30:48.919 [SPEAKER_02]: It's about preparing the nervous system to receive it. 30:49.460 --> 30:56.247 [SPEAKER_02]: When we slow down, breath and pace ourselves, firstly, stop speaking a checklist and become a bridge. 30:56.908 --> 31:01.853 [SPEAKER_02]: And often, one small shift, like allowing more time to transition, 31:01.833 --> 31:06.380 [SPEAKER_02]: can completely change how safe and erotic intimacy feels. 31:06.941 --> 31:15.454 [SPEAKER_02]: And if part of your goal is feeling more control and confidence, once things do get going, that's where tools can help. 31:15.474 --> 31:19.400 [SPEAKER_02]: As I mentioned earlier, we generally enjoyed using steady-fready. 31:19.801 --> 31:26.912 [SPEAKER_02]: It helped extend the experience significantly while still keeping pleasure intact for 31:26.892 --> 31:28.895 [SPEAKER_02]: which is really the point. 31:28.915 --> 31:42.676 [SPEAKER_02]: If lasting longer and staying regulated during sex, is something you're working on, you can get 15% off with code sexology at steadyfreddit.com forward slash sexology. 31:43.236 --> 31:48.985 [SPEAKER_02]: Also, always make sure you're reading the label and following the direction for best result. 31:48.965 --> 31:57.291 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for being here for caring about your connection and for remembering that great sex often begins long before touch. 31:57.692 --> 32:00.882 [SPEAKER_02]: I'll see you in the next episode of the Sexology Podcast. 32:01.537 --> 32:05.084 [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for listening to 6-Solicite podcast. 32:05.545 --> 32:12.419 [SPEAKER_02]: For more great content, visit www.6-Solicitepodcast.com. 32:13.061 --> 32:22.380 [SPEAKER_02]: Please be advised that information presented on this podcast is not a substitute for seeking help from a licensed mental health provider.