WEBVTT 00:11.962 --> 00:25.094 [SPEAKER_00]: In this episode of Consider Before Consuming, we're joined by Hunter Clark, who shares his personal journey with pornography, from early exposure as a kid to years of trying everything he could think of to quit. 00:26.075 --> 00:28.538 [SPEAKER_00]: Hunter talks about the shame that kept him stuck. 00:29.158 --> 00:39.488 [SPEAKER_00]: The moment he realized his struggle was connected to deeper wounds, and what began to change when he started addressing the root causes instead of just trying to stop the behavior. 00:40.160 --> 00:53.167 [SPEAKER_00]: We also talk about how pornography can affect relationships, why many partners blame themselves, and how honesty and education can help people move forward with less shame and more understanding. 00:54.129 --> 00:55.752 [SPEAKER_00]: With that, let's jump in. 00:56.594 --> 01:00.362 [SPEAKER_00]: We hope you enjoy this episode of Consider Before Consuming. 01:01.102 --> 01:03.928 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, welcome listeners to Consider Before Consuming. 01:03.948 --> 01:06.574 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm so excited to be here in the studio to do with Hunter. 01:06.594 --> 01:07.676 [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for joining us. 01:07.716 --> 01:08.277 [SPEAKER_02]: Of course. 01:08.758 --> 01:14.791 [SPEAKER_03]: Can you tell us a little bit about who you are and what brings you here today just to dive right in? 01:14.852 --> 01:16.495 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 01:16.475 --> 01:28.526 [SPEAKER_01]: you know, we'll probably get into it more, but you know, I've had quite a long journey with pornography and within the last two or three years, I've started posting about it openly and talking about my story and it's gone a lot of traction. 01:29.067 --> 01:32.710 [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, that's kind of why I'm here, I guess. 01:32.750 --> 01:35.613 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and that is why we reached out to you. 01:36.654 --> 01:37.975 [SPEAKER_03]: Let's dive into your story. 01:37.995 --> 01:43.680 [SPEAKER_03]: Can you take me back to 01:43.998 --> 01:48.085 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, I think it's a little, uh, good to go back a little bit. 01:48.185 --> 01:52.412 [SPEAKER_01]: You guys were kind of making fun of me because I'm Gen Z a little bit before we started the podcast. 01:53.234 --> 01:59.825 [SPEAKER_01]: And what's interesting is when I turned nine was when the first iPod touch came out. 02:00.406 --> 02:02.950 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, yeah, the iPhone and the iPod touch came out. 02:02.970 --> 02:08.740 [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's really the first time that kids had internet access in their pockets. 02:08.720 --> 02:29.260 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was just a kid in a candy store like when you have unlimited access and your curious and you're going through puberty and hormones and all of that I think I watched like Transformers 1 and really liked got a big crush on Megan Fox and and that was kind of my first 02:29.240 --> 02:33.686 [SPEAKER_01]: journey into it, it felt very innocent, it felt very curious. 02:35.488 --> 02:38.452 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's kind of how it all started. 02:38.513 --> 02:51.450 [SPEAKER_01]: I would, you know, view just really exploring and just seeing what was out there was such a new 02:51.599 --> 03:02.572 [SPEAKER_01]: As I kind of got older, that's when it shifted more into a negative habit that I would use to escape and run from things. 03:02.652 --> 03:16.729 [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know it at the time, but yeah, in middle school felt super alone felt like I was the only one struggling with it and then 03:16.709 --> 03:23.839 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that was honestly kind of healthy for me to be able to just joke about it, laugh about it. 03:23.899 --> 03:26.803 [SPEAKER_01]: And so that's kind of how I got introduced. 03:26.983 --> 03:36.736 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't remember there being a ton of shame until I got a little bit older and like realizing it wasn't something that I was, you know, quote unquote supposed to do. 03:36.796 --> 03:37.718 [SPEAKER_01]: Right. 03:37.738 --> 03:40.662 [SPEAKER_01]: And so that's kind of how it really started. 03:40.682 --> 03:41.603 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 03:42.207 --> 03:46.118 [SPEAKER_03]: You mentioned your first exposure being pretty young. 03:46.980 --> 03:50.711 [SPEAKER_03]: When exposure happens that young, it can influence a lot of things in your life. 03:51.192 --> 03:57.550 [SPEAKER_03]: Looking back now, how do you think it affected the way that you understood sex or relationships growing up? 03:58.643 --> 04:04.049 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I don't feel like when I was so young, it was pretty light. 04:04.369 --> 04:07.193 [SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't the extreme stuff. 04:08.114 --> 04:11.958 [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't feel like it really affected me until I was older. 04:12.218 --> 04:12.919 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 04:13.179 --> 04:21.168 [SPEAKER_01]: And I would say the biggest thing that it affected was how I viewed women and how I viewed sex as a whole. 04:21.268 --> 04:24.111 [SPEAKER_01]: Like I had an expectation of sex. 04:24.131 --> 04:27.435 [SPEAKER_01]: I had an expectation of how women should look. 04:27.415 --> 04:34.528 [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, I would say it didn't start till later, though, when I was young, it was innocent. 04:34.568 --> 04:40.138 [SPEAKER_01]: But I think it did plan a seat of some wrong expectations, I would say. 04:40.279 --> 04:40.479 [SPEAKER_03]: Right. 04:41.020 --> 04:47.652 [SPEAKER_03]: And later, being like high school around the time that it was kind of a joke or normalized a little bit more, or you think even after that. 04:47.632 --> 05:01.634 [SPEAKER_01]: I would say even after I served a mission for my church and you know thought that I was good and I overcame it and then getting back and when I was really dating seriously for marriage I think that's when it was really affecting me. 05:01.654 --> 05:05.801 [SPEAKER_03]: For many people porn becomes a way to cope with something deeper. 05:05.861 --> 05:14.635 [SPEAKER_03]: That time in your life, what kinds of emotions or experiences were you trying to escape 05:14.935 --> 05:24.806 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I have a belief that a lot of addiction in general is escaping from trauma or wounds or things of the past. 05:25.507 --> 05:33.035 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I had a few things happen to me when I was young that I didn't think honestly were that big of a deal. 05:33.075 --> 05:43.727 [SPEAKER_01]: But when I was like nine years old, right when I started viewing pornography, 05:43.707 --> 05:57.985 [SPEAKER_01]: And I didn't really think of it that much, but in my later 20s, I realized that that was a big wound that I was actually escaping with two pornography. 05:58.766 --> 06:10.120 [SPEAKER_01]: And so a lot of guys, when they say, 06:10.100 --> 06:19.233 [SPEAKER_01]: For me, what I've seen with most of the people I work with, it there is usually a deeper wound or issue that they're escaping from. 06:19.253 --> 06:20.234 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 06:20.254 --> 06:23.679 [SPEAKER_03]: What was it like for you to realize that that was kind of tethered back to that? 06:25.341 --> 06:33.573 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, yeah, it was in a therapy session that I really realized that that was going on. 06:34.594 --> 06:35.095 [SPEAKER_01]: And 06:36.492 --> 06:45.574 [SPEAKER_01]: Once we kind of had resolved it, I feel like afterwards my desire to view porn like really went down. 06:46.195 --> 06:52.510 [SPEAKER_01]: And so there wasn't like anything in the moment specifically, but I did notice big time afterwards. 06:52.490 --> 06:57.517 [SPEAKER_01]: my desire to view was like a nine out of ten and I went to like a four out of ten. 06:57.657 --> 06:58.198 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well. 06:58.418 --> 07:04.246 [SPEAKER_01]: So it just felt like I was in the right direction, healing, doing it. 07:04.386 --> 07:17.624 [SPEAKER_03]: You had mentioned that this was something that when you were kind of seriously dating for marriage, when you were a little bit older, that's when you started to decide, okay, maybe this is something that I want to kick, a habit that I want to kick. 07:17.904 --> 07:21.349 [SPEAKER_03]: When you realized this was something 07:21.329 --> 07:26.491 [SPEAKER_03]: What were some of the things that you tried to be able to stop a consuming pornography? 07:27.033 --> 07:29.162 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, I tried. 07:29.885 --> 07:31.788 [SPEAKER_01]: I first, I would say it was always the habit. 07:31.848 --> 07:32.649 [SPEAKER_01]: I was trying to kick. 07:32.929 --> 07:35.212 [SPEAKER_01]: There never wasn't a time that I wasn't trying. 07:36.154 --> 07:38.938 [SPEAKER_01]: And I tried a whole bunch of things. 07:39.599 --> 07:42.563 [SPEAKER_01]: Obviously the first one is just more willpower, more grit. 07:43.184 --> 07:43.865 [SPEAKER_01]: That didn't work. 07:43.945 --> 07:44.986 [SPEAKER_01]: I tried blockers. 07:45.287 --> 07:46.929 [SPEAKER_01]: I tried accountability partners. 07:47.710 --> 07:49.533 [SPEAKER_01]: I tried contracts with myself. 07:49.953 --> 07:52.317 [SPEAKER_01]: I even gave a buddy two grand. 07:52.357 --> 07:57.664 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, hey, if I mess up again, two grand's years, I want you to have it. 07:57.644 --> 07:59.647 [SPEAKER_01]: long story short lost the two grand. 07:59.848 --> 08:03.734 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I tried everything. 08:03.854 --> 08:04.335 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 08:04.355 --> 08:16.294 [SPEAKER_01]: But I think all of those things were focused on stopping the behavior and not viewing it as a symptom of something that was actually deeper kind of what we were talking about earlier. 08:16.274 --> 08:16.614 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 08:17.295 --> 08:28.325 [SPEAKER_03]: I want to ask you a little bit about you mentioned that you didn't have a lot of shame around it when you were younger, which I think is something we've heard, you know, it's either kind of one of the one or the other for a lot of people. 08:28.345 --> 08:45.420 [SPEAKER_03]: There's either immediate shame, which feels this word something that's like, it is pretty normalized among your peers and it's not something people are experienced. 08:45.400 --> 08:53.100 [SPEAKER_03]: for you in the season where you were really, really trying to, you know, all of these different things to quit, did that shame kind of keep you stuck in that? 08:53.341 --> 08:54.243 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh for sure. 08:54.323 --> 08:55.005 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 08:55.525 --> 09:06.397 [SPEAKER_01]: There was this one lesson that we had where our teacher came in, and we were like 12, and he's like, I know none of you guys struggle with this, but we need to talk about porn. 09:06.417 --> 09:09.701 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, or I've been dealing with this for four years now. 09:10.001 --> 09:12.384 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, and that felt like a lot of shame. 09:12.604 --> 09:20.232 [SPEAKER_01]: And then I also felt my parents caught me when I was young and that added a whole, another level of shame. 09:20.272 --> 09:20.653 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 09:21.173 --> 09:22.815 [SPEAKER_01]: And I remember, 09:22.795 --> 09:46.727 [SPEAKER_01]: just hearing things like well why don't you just stop like why don't you just you know you can control it or it's worse than drugs on your brain and like things like that and you were like why don't I just stop like I was like I'm trying and yeah I'm trying but I can't so I think shame kind of is what put the nail in the coffin per se of really creating it into a nasty habit 09:46.707 --> 09:47.047 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 09:48.048 --> 09:59.939 [SPEAKER_03]: And as you were trying all of these different strategies in adulthood, you know, filters accountability partners giving a friend to grant, to try to hold over your own head. 09:59.999 --> 10:04.883 [SPEAKER_03]: What was the experience of trying all of these different things like? 10:05.404 --> 10:16.714 [SPEAKER_03]: I think it's something that a lot of people who are in this position, they try, you know, everything they can think of and kind of run into a brick wall each time and what was your experience kind of going through 10:16.694 --> 10:23.060 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I felt honestly super hopeless, so a little bit more into my story. 10:23.120 --> 10:35.292 [SPEAKER_01]: I got back from my church mission and was dating and I wasn't going to tell my wife my now wife about it, because I thought that once we get married, it's just going to go away, right? 10:35.312 --> 10:39.135 [SPEAKER_01]: At this point, my parents were on my side and they were really helping me. 10:39.396 --> 10:43.039 [SPEAKER_01]: And my dad had a pretty honest conversation with me and was like, hey, 10:43.913 --> 10:53.106 [SPEAKER_01]: whether, because I was dating my wife at the time and she was like, whether she breaks up with you or not, you need to have a conversation with her. 10:53.227 --> 10:53.447 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 10:53.787 --> 10:56.211 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, okay, and it just felt true. 10:56.251 --> 10:56.732 [SPEAKER_01]: It felt right. 10:56.772 --> 11:04.403 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I went and had a conversation with my wife and told her everything and I'm really, really glad that I did. 11:05.311 --> 11:06.773 [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, we got married. 11:06.873 --> 11:08.996 [SPEAKER_01]: Things were great for six, eight months. 11:09.116 --> 11:14.103 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was in a high pressure sales job and the habits started to come back. 11:14.844 --> 11:26.421 [SPEAKER_01]: So to answer your question at this point, you know, my wife was like, hey, I don't necessarily want to divorce, but I just don't know how much longer I can deal with this. 11:27.222 --> 11:34.592 [SPEAKER_01]: And so we were driving in our springer van that we had across to California 11:34.572 --> 11:35.753 [SPEAKER_01]: We were on 80 miles per hour. 11:35.793 --> 11:37.656 [SPEAKER_01]: They're ditches on both sides of the road. 11:37.736 --> 11:40.479 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that morning, I'd look to porn or something. 11:41.320 --> 11:44.043 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was in the back taking that, because I was driving most of the way. 11:44.303 --> 11:48.288 [SPEAKER_01]: And no seat belt, tall springer van in my wife. 11:48.528 --> 11:50.590 [SPEAKER_01]: She hits the rumble strips, like heart. 11:51.151 --> 11:57.238 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, okay, if we go off the road, we're rolling for sure. 11:57.218 --> 12:00.763 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm in the back with no sea bell on going 80 miles per hour, right? 12:00.783 --> 12:04.728 [SPEAKER_01]: Like we're not going to make it or I wasn't going to make it. 12:04.908 --> 12:11.217 [SPEAKER_01]: And at that moment, there was this sense of relief that it was all going to be over. 12:11.898 --> 12:13.380 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, Tancy your question. 12:13.400 --> 12:19.969 [SPEAKER_01]: There really was a sense of like hopelessness, really trying everything and just like, oh, like, 12:19.949 --> 12:28.137 [SPEAKER_01]: Am I gonna be 50 and still still struggling with this right and so I would say 12:29.517 --> 12:35.242 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, hopelessness was for sure the main emotion that I felt after failing so many times. 12:36.243 --> 12:59.322 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's such a vulnerable thing to share, but I think it is something that I've certainly heard from many others and conversations like this is just that the desire for the struggle to be over is so strong that just like any relief from that is really compelling when there is that 12:59.302 --> 13:08.499 [SPEAKER_03]: When you first decided to tell your wife and disclose this to your wife, which is not an easy thing for anyone to do, and this was before she was your wife when you did it. 13:08.519 --> 13:09.521 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, we were dating. 13:09.541 --> 13:14.070 [SPEAKER_03]: Do you remember how that conversation went in or how she responded to you at that time? 13:14.219 --> 13:19.284 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I went to her and I didn't write off the bat. 13:19.304 --> 13:24.570 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think that's the smartest move to do with the girl that you like, but kind of more into dating. 13:24.690 --> 13:36.422 [SPEAKER_01]: I opened up and I just was like, hey, I need to tell you something and opened up about my whole story of like, this is when it started, this is where it's at now. 13:36.982 --> 13:43.669 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I can't promise perfection, but I can promise honesty. 13:43.649 --> 13:54.320 [SPEAKER_01]: I think because I told her so early on in the relationship, it did build a lot of trust and obviously she's not stoked to hear anything like that. 13:55.303 --> 13:56.005 [SPEAKER_01]: But 13:57.419 --> 14:02.287 [SPEAKER_01]: After some thought, she felt really good about moving forward. 14:02.407 --> 14:08.457 [SPEAKER_01]: And she never struggled with pornography, but she had like seen a few things, and I like really scared her. 14:08.497 --> 14:15.548 [SPEAKER_01]: So I think that created a little bit of empathy, joy with what I was struggling with. 14:16.389 --> 14:16.710 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 14:16.870 --> 14:16.930 [UNKNOWN]: So. 14:16.994 --> 14:30.776 [SPEAKER_03]: And so when you got to this point where you had now been together and married for I'm not sure how long when you got to the point where she said, you know, I don't really want to divorce, but I don't know how much how much more I can take, what was that experience like. 14:31.618 --> 14:41.854 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, it was it was super sucky because I had felt like I was trying, but nothing was actually working. 14:42.273 --> 14:58.965 [SPEAKER_01]: And to kind of go back on the dating thing, there is something I do want to say to that is, yes, like you said, it was a very hard conversation, but I feel like that developed our relationship in such a deeper way. 14:58.945 --> 15:19.170 [SPEAKER_01]: I believe intimacy is like into me, you see, and so when I was able to open up all the good, the bad, the ugly parts of me, and she saw that, and then she accepted me, our relationship, like fireworks were happening, like it really, really strengthened our relationships. 15:19.230 --> 15:22.995 [SPEAKER_01]: So then moving into marriage and 15:22.975 --> 15:34.617 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, after two years of trying and failing and trying and failing, there was never a threat of like, hey, if you don't figure this out, ready to divorce, she was just genuinely like, I don't know how much longer I can deal with this. 15:34.697 --> 15:34.957 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 15:35.638 --> 15:42.992 [SPEAKER_01]: And so it was really hurtful, but I think it's exactly what I needed, 15:44.255 --> 15:47.699 [SPEAKER_01]: understanding of addiction was flawed. 15:48.420 --> 15:49.522 [SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't working. 15:49.622 --> 16:00.255 [SPEAKER_01]: And so that was kind of the last stitch effort of I'm going to throw everything that I think I know about addiction off the table, and I'm going to start fresh. 16:00.615 --> 16:05.381 [SPEAKER_01]: And so it really was a pivotal moment in overcoming it. 16:05.602 --> 16:05.822 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 16:06.262 --> 16:10.768 [SPEAKER_03]: And what happened next when you had that kind of shift in in your thought process? 16:10.867 --> 16:30.867 [SPEAKER_01]: You saw I started researching, yeah, I was like, I need to figure the sound, no one's going to come save me and one of the first things that I read was about shame and how shame can really fuel addiction and fuel this problem specifically, especially in a high conservative high religious area. 16:30.847 --> 16:37.956 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, okay, well, how do you get out of shame in the first things that I read was bring it to the light? 16:38.016 --> 16:40.098 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, start talking about it openly. 16:40.599 --> 16:44.363 [SPEAKER_01]: I was already in conversation with my wife about it, but I hadn't talked to anybody else. 16:44.403 --> 16:47.087 [SPEAKER_01]: So I started talking to my friends. 16:47.387 --> 16:52.433 [SPEAKER_01]: I was on a men's retreat of 50 men that I really looked up to. 16:52.413 --> 16:59.223 [SPEAKER_01]: And we did like this breath work thing, and I just had this impression to go up and talk about what I was experiencing. 16:59.803 --> 17:05.952 [SPEAKER_01]: Not in the sense where most people talk about it where they're like, oh yes, thing in the past, like whatever, right? 17:06.453 --> 17:14.264 [SPEAKER_01]: I was like, no, I'm currently struggling with this, and I'm a dad, or I'm a husband, I have a kid on the way. 17:14.304 --> 17:15.045 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm 17:15.025 --> 17:30.807 [SPEAKER_01]: currently dealing with this and that's when I really felt like I started bringing things to the light and when I did that kind of like what I was saying earlier my desire to view really started to go down part of it 17:30.787 --> 17:36.235 [SPEAKER_03]: which is so great for so many people who are struggling with this in their relationship but haven't disclosed to their partner. 17:36.255 --> 17:42.524 [SPEAKER_03]: A lot of the shame often builds from knowing that they're hurting their partner and their partner has no idea. 17:42.544 --> 17:48.913 [SPEAKER_03]: And in this case, you know, you were able to be completely open and honest and transparent with your partner. 17:48.893 --> 18:10.800 [SPEAKER_03]: Knowing still that it was a difficult thing for her to experience, but you had kind of that piece lifted, do you feel like the shame you were experiencing at that time was coming still from hurting your partner or because you'd been able to be open and honest with her, it wasn't so much there as maybe some of the external things that once you started to speak openly about this, that shifted. 18:10.949 --> 18:12.050 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I would say it was both. 18:12.151 --> 18:18.599 [SPEAKER_01]: It was, it was the fact that I could see that it was hurting my partner, right, even though I was honest, it was still her full. 18:19.360 --> 18:31.557 [SPEAKER_01]: So I would say that was a big contributor was I was hurting her, but I mean, more than anything, it was, I just felt, I felt weak, I just felt. 18:34.355 --> 18:40.102 [SPEAKER_01]: I felt like myself trust was eroded. 18:40.322 --> 18:42.485 [SPEAKER_01]: Like nothing had worked. 18:42.505 --> 18:47.351 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, how many times had I promised myself that I was never going to do it again? 18:47.391 --> 18:50.074 [SPEAKER_01]: Thousands, probably thousands of times. 18:50.654 --> 18:56.121 [SPEAKER_01]: And how many times did I break my own promise to myself, thousands of times? 18:56.882 --> 18:59.485 [SPEAKER_01]: And so yeah, very 18:59.785 --> 19:05.352 [SPEAKER_01]: desperate and then just adding the partner on top of it really, yeah, made it deeper. 19:05.632 --> 19:23.415 [SPEAKER_03]: And feeling like when you get to that point where your self trust is broken and it feels like maybe you're not in control of anything or like how can I possibly kick this if I'm if I'm not even able to be accountable to myself, like I think that really builds for so many people who are kind of find themselves in that place. 19:23.595 --> 19:29.623 [SPEAKER_01]: For sure, yeah, I even signed up for an 19:29.603 --> 19:32.109 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, if I can do this, I can quit. 19:32.370 --> 19:33.653 [SPEAKER_01]: I can quit porn, right? 19:33.673 --> 19:33.773 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 19:34.696 --> 19:36.641 [SPEAKER_01]: And that didn't even work, right? 19:36.661 --> 19:45.864 [SPEAKER_01]: Like I ran a 50 mile marathon and like the discipline that it took to do that, still didn't translate into. 19:45.884 --> 19:45.984 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 19:46.746 --> 19:47.207 [SPEAKER_01]: Quit it. 19:47.187 --> 19:54.299 [SPEAKER_03]: And as you started to learn research this and learn about addiction, did you start to see why that was true? 19:54.339 --> 20:01.772 [SPEAKER_03]: Why you could have the discipline you needed to run this, this ultramarathon, but not be able to kick this habit? 20:01.973 --> 20:02.874 [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm. 20:02.894 --> 20:09.786 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so for me, what it really was, and we mentioned it earlier about the trauma. 20:09.766 --> 20:26.526 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a way to escape a wound, the way I like to view pornography is it's a signal like it like a check engine light in your car is going off and something underneath the hood is off and so it's not that 20:26.506 --> 20:29.351 [SPEAKER_01]: the actual light, the porn is the problem. 20:29.631 --> 20:42.173 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just showing you that something is off, whether you're missing connection, whether you need to deal with some traumatic stuff that happened in the past, whether you're out of alignment, whether you need to apologize to someone. 20:42.774 --> 20:45.900 [SPEAKER_01]: To me, it just is a check engine light. 20:46.521 --> 20:47.923 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, 20:47.903 --> 20:53.370 [SPEAKER_01]: it's a symptom of something deeper, so it's not necessarily that you need more discipline. 20:53.390 --> 21:01.160 [SPEAKER_01]: You just need to listen to what it's trying to communicate to you, to then learn from it, and then grow from it. 21:01.240 --> 21:09.270 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, well said, what changes did you notice when you started healing your relationship with shame around pornography? 21:09.959 --> 21:12.183 [SPEAKER_01]: For sure, the biggest one was confidence. 21:12.684 --> 21:16.551 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I didn't realize how wrecked my confidence was with this. 21:17.333 --> 21:31.900 [SPEAKER_01]: And when I started to gain a healthier relationship with pornography and shame, I feel like my confidence went through the roof, which I think confidence will contribute to every area of your life. 21:31.880 --> 21:32.621 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 21:32.642 --> 21:40.517 [SPEAKER_03]: For some people with a porn habit, confidence, they will notice kind of hit from like comparison to what they're consuming. 21:40.697 --> 21:48.032 [SPEAKER_03]: Was it that or was it more like your as you mentioned earlier, keeping promises with yourself and were kind of all of it? 21:48.164 --> 21:59.964 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I would say there was a little bit of body dysmorphia, but I would say more than anything it was the making and breaking promises to myself over and over and over again. 22:00.505 --> 22:03.951 [SPEAKER_01]: So that was the biggest confidence record for me. 22:04.753 --> 22:10.242 [SPEAKER_03]: And it makes sense that then keeping promises that you made to yourself over and over again, would kind of reverse that. 22:10.863 --> 22:13.007 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, yes, which is awesome. 22:12.987 --> 22:22.601 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and we are in an interesting time where, you know, when I was young, I had to search pornography, right? 22:22.701 --> 22:24.824 [SPEAKER_01]: Like it wasn't coming to me. 22:25.685 --> 22:36.000 [SPEAKER_01]: And now it's like because of social media and I think only fans, they are trying to push it in front of you. 22:36.781 --> 22:39.265 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's a very interesting 22:40.240 --> 22:49.658 [SPEAKER_01]: mix of like not only is cocaine in your pocket as a drug addict for that example, it's like put in your face all the time. 22:49.698 --> 22:55.349 [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's such a tricky thing to navigate, it's interesting. 22:55.449 --> 22:59.717 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's difficult to avoid for, yeah, it's like every, 23:00.828 --> 23:11.428 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it depends what your definition of pornography, as which I'd actually be curious fight the new drug, what is the definition of pornography, because that's also a tough 23:11.527 --> 23:12.708 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's a great question. 23:12.848 --> 23:28.102 [SPEAKER_03]: We actually don't define it and that's for many reasons, but mostly because pornography looks so different through so many different mediums, through so many different avenues, the way technology is rapidly evolving. 23:28.743 --> 23:39.272 [SPEAKER_03]: We could not have anticipated five years ago the way that people are being exploited now 23:39.252 --> 23:42.316 [SPEAKER_03]: it's it's something that is ever evolving. 23:43.157 --> 23:49.665 [SPEAKER_03]: And we have found that with something like this for someone to say, what's the definition? 23:49.825 --> 23:56.894 [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, I will hear this definition and say, oh, well, what I'm consuming is outside of my interpretation of that definition. 23:56.994 --> 24:02.982 [SPEAKER_03]: So I'm at these, this can't have any harmful effects and that's simply not true. 24:02.962 --> 24:13.980 [SPEAKER_03]: And so often when we're sharing, you know, research or statistics, we will be sure to be clear about how that study is communicating what the research is about. 24:14.420 --> 24:16.824 [SPEAKER_03]: Often it's about hardcore explicit pornography. 24:17.826 --> 24:22.894 [SPEAKER_03]: We often reference a judge that many years ago said, no, when you say exactly. 24:22.874 --> 24:38.790 [SPEAKER_03]: But that really is something that we deliberately don't define it and that is because there are so many different things that are explicit in nature that can be triggering to different people on kind of different areas of this journey and so. 24:38.770 --> 24:47.703 [SPEAKER_03]: When we discuss pornography, people know what we're talking about, though I will say there's a gap in people's understanding of what certain things are like only fans that you mentioned. 24:47.884 --> 24:51.750 [SPEAKER_03]: So many people, so many parents have no idea what only fans that is, right? 24:51.790 --> 25:00.002 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's a huge way that pornography is being disseminated now in targeting young people. 24:59.982 --> 25:06.151 [SPEAKER_03]: we're learning every day of a new way that new technology is so scary. 25:06.892 --> 25:12.160 [SPEAKER_03]: Is creating, you know, pornographic content and it's actually explicit content and that people are being exploited. 25:12.260 --> 25:15.284 [SPEAKER_03]: So we actually don't have a definition for it for that reason. 25:16.265 --> 25:19.370 [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, back to your answer of how you define pornography. 25:19.390 --> 25:20.151 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 25:20.131 --> 25:22.938 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I don't know. 25:23.339 --> 25:31.658 [SPEAKER_01]: And when I say pornography, some people think that I'm talking about like the explicit hardcore websites. 25:31.718 --> 25:32.380 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not. 25:32.601 --> 25:37.853 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm talking about, you know, when you see it, I'm Instagram right around on TikTok. 25:37.833 --> 25:41.298 [SPEAKER_03]: And there's research to show that those things have just as much impact, right? 25:41.458 --> 25:55.540 [SPEAKER_03]: And especially for someone who has had a compulsive habit or addiction to pornography, those things can certainly be just just triggering to those same pathways in the brain as hardcore content could be for someone else. 25:55.560 --> 26:00.126 [SPEAKER_03]: So I think it's certainly matters. 26:00.187 --> 26:05.815 [SPEAKER_03]: Everything that you're saying is relevant and considered I would say fine under the umbrella of pornography. 26:05.795 --> 26:06.316 [SPEAKER_01]: hold away. 26:06.556 --> 26:22.311 [SPEAKER_01]: And just I know I have a narrower view of it than you guys do, but a lot of the guys that that come to me that I get DMs, I mean, it's probably 50, 50 now of like, some of these guys don't even go to website. 26:22.391 --> 26:31.600 [SPEAKER_01]: They're just on social media and they can see just as much and something 26:32.677 --> 26:35.160 [SPEAKER_01]: changes off of porn. 26:36.221 --> 26:38.583 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'll be super direct. 26:38.663 --> 26:44.249 [SPEAKER_01]: My wife is way hotter when I am not doing pornography. 26:44.269 --> 26:46.312 [SPEAKER_01]: I find her so much more attractive. 26:46.892 --> 26:49.335 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not even talking about the hardcore stuff. 26:49.775 --> 27:00.827 [SPEAKER_01]: And as I have distanced myself, I've become more appreciative of what I have in front of me. 27:00.807 --> 27:07.959 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, it really does affect your brain and I'm not even saying that from like a religious or moral point. 27:08.060 --> 27:12.888 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just saying for me, it affects even when I'm not looking at the websites. 27:12.908 --> 27:13.148 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 27:14.030 --> 27:16.554 [SPEAKER_03]: And to be clear, your wife hasn't made any changes. 27:16.574 --> 27:17.576 [SPEAKER_03]: No, no, she's not. 27:17.756 --> 27:18.398 [SPEAKER_01]: She's the same. 27:18.458 --> 27:19.980 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, she's the same. 27:20.221 --> 27:20.942 [SPEAKER_03]: She's the same. 27:20.922 --> 27:23.985 [SPEAKER_01]: My lens of hers is different. 27:24.166 --> 27:24.426 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 27:25.087 --> 27:26.969 [SPEAKER_03]: And I want to talk a little bit about partners. 27:26.989 --> 27:33.716 [SPEAKER_03]: A lot of the times, partners of consumers, or someone with a porn habit, will blame themselves immediately. 27:33.776 --> 27:39.462 [SPEAKER_03]: When you learn that their partner has a porn habit, they will just blame themselves for saying, you know, I didn't. 27:40.243 --> 27:41.344 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not good enough. 27:41.364 --> 27:42.345 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not good enough. 27:42.586 --> 27:43.487 [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you. 27:43.567 --> 27:44.007 [SPEAKER_03]: Exactly. 27:44.388 --> 27:46.810 [SPEAKER_03]: What would you say to someone who's in that position? 27:47.891 --> 27:48.432 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 27:51.263 --> 28:00.219 [SPEAKER_01]: kind of like what we talked about, I would educate of what is actually happening with pornography, and how long has your partner been struggling with pornography, right? 28:00.639 --> 28:09.174 [SPEAKER_01]: This has been an issue much before you even came into this picture, which doesn't diminish your feelings. 28:09.194 --> 28:15.786 [SPEAKER_01]: I actually think that's really important that you still have your feelings and they're very valid, but I would also say, 28:16.576 --> 28:28.432 [SPEAKER_01]: And this is, this is where it's a little bit tricky, but I would almost compare it to like an eating disorder in a sense of like, it's not about food, right? 28:28.452 --> 28:30.455 [SPEAKER_01]: An eating disorder is not about food. 28:30.635 --> 28:34.200 [SPEAKER_01]: It is a coping mechanism a way to escape. 28:34.821 --> 28:39.107 [SPEAKER_01]: Whatever you call it, it's not about food, and I would say the same with, 28:39.087 --> 28:40.489 [SPEAKER_01]: a partner that's struggling. 28:40.529 --> 28:41.851 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not about lust. 28:42.171 --> 28:42.832 [SPEAKER_01]: It can be. 28:43.453 --> 28:47.938 [SPEAKER_01]: But I would say if someone is genuine of like, hey, I'm trying to quit. 28:48.058 --> 28:49.200 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want this in my life. 28:49.861 --> 28:52.144 [SPEAKER_01]: I would say it's not a lust issue. 28:52.224 --> 28:54.006 [SPEAKER_01]: It's in a scapeysam issue. 28:54.627 --> 29:01.095 [SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like once my wife and I came to that, it really just 29:01.362 --> 29:07.495 [SPEAKER_01]: her back in her power of like, oh, like, it doesn't mean anything about me if you choose to go look at this. 29:08.216 --> 29:18.217 [SPEAKER_01]: If anything, if I have a conversation with her about it and she's like, okay, like, you know, obviously I'm not stoked to hear that you just went look to porn, but also like, what's going on? 29:18.397 --> 29:20.822 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, why did you find yourself? 29:20.802 --> 29:37.039 [SPEAKER_01]: with the need to escape to pornography, and so we've created actually a really healthy relationship around it that I think has been a massive role in helping me recover is is 29:37.019 --> 29:39.583 [SPEAKER_01]: her really understanding it. 29:39.663 --> 29:46.715 [SPEAKER_01]: So I would say one you're feeling they're so valid and don't suppress those feelings because that will make it worse. 29:47.536 --> 29:55.028 [SPEAKER_01]: But to maybe try and educate yourself a little bit on what is actually happening here in that might. 29:55.008 --> 30:19.750 [SPEAKER_03]: take some of the sting off of it and I think that's really really well said it's so important for partners to still take care of themselves through this process for sure and many cases find the support that they need whether that's being able to talk to a friend or a family member or a licensed clinical professional, a counselor therapist to make sure that they also have support through what they're experiencing this. 30:19.730 --> 30:29.871 [SPEAKER_03]: But also, the more that any of us can learn about this, we can really understand what pornography addiction or a compulsive habit is about. 30:30.412 --> 30:34.922 [SPEAKER_03]: And so much of it, it really isn't about your partner in your relationships. 30:34.942 --> 30:37.587 [SPEAKER_03]: And for some people, it could be good. 30:37.567 --> 30:48.655 [SPEAKER_03]: That's important not to negate that either, but so, so often it's something that did as you mentioned start so long before that relationship or any relationship existed. 30:48.876 --> 30:50.580 [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that's so helpful. 30:50.620 --> 30:53.668 [SPEAKER_03]: It's able to have some clarity about that to understand. 30:53.767 --> 30:54.227 [SPEAKER_01]: Totally. 30:55.068 --> 31:03.016 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and for the spouses, just your feelings are so, so valid, right? 31:03.236 --> 31:05.378 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's, that's probably the last thing I'd say. 31:05.418 --> 31:06.159 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 31:06.820 --> 31:09.722 [SPEAKER_03]: That's something that, you know, there can be misconceptions about that. 31:09.803 --> 31:19.572 [SPEAKER_03]: Are there other misconceptions that you think or or things you think people misunderstand the most about a struggle with pornography that you think to talk about? 31:19.754 --> 31:21.737 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, I think we've talked about it a lot. 31:22.077 --> 31:26.003 [SPEAKER_01]: It's, I think porn is the top of the iceberg. 31:26.183 --> 31:27.044 [SPEAKER_01]: It's the symptom. 31:27.224 --> 31:39.321 [SPEAKER_01]: And there's things going on that are deeper that if people focused less energy and time on just trying to quit porn. 31:39.542 --> 31:45.390 [SPEAKER_01]: And they focused more energy on the actual iceberg, not just the tip. 31:45.725 --> 31:51.337 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it would go a lot smoother for a lot of people to quit. 31:52.299 --> 32:01.658 [SPEAKER_01]: And I would also say, this is, this one's a hard one, but like what is the definition of success, right? 32:01.638 --> 32:08.331 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, my definition for the longest time was I'm never going to view again, right? 32:08.631 --> 32:19.352 [SPEAKER_01]: But I think in today's age, whether you seek it out or whether it's shown in front of your face, there's porn everywhere. 32:19.713 --> 32:22.498 [SPEAKER_01]: And so my definition, 32:22.934 --> 32:32.255 [SPEAKER_01]: has shifted from, hey, I'm never going to view it again, to I'm going to develop a healthy relationship with pornography, where I don't feel like it controls me. 32:32.275 --> 32:37.426 [SPEAKER_01]: If I do end up looking at pornography, I have an open conversation with my wife about it. 32:37.927 --> 32:41.415 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have any habitual with this thing, but... 32:41.395 --> 32:59.961 [SPEAKER_01]: To me it's more about how is your relationship to shame and pornography rather than I'm going to put this pressure on myself to be perfect because every time I did that and I broke that perfection I would go straight into a bench and so for me it's much healthier to view it as. 33:00.211 --> 33:01.573 [SPEAKER_01]: How am I feeling with shame? 33:02.134 --> 33:03.597 [SPEAKER_01]: How is my relationship with my wife? 33:03.677 --> 33:05.280 [SPEAKER_01]: Can we communicate about this? 33:05.360 --> 33:06.903 [SPEAKER_01]: Can we talk about it? 33:06.963 --> 33:09.247 [SPEAKER_01]: Can I control this? 33:09.748 --> 33:13.054 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's where I found the most success. 33:13.074 --> 33:17.342 [SPEAKER_01]: So talking about success, I would be very curious to hear. 33:17.322 --> 33:22.470 [SPEAKER_01]: your guys is perspective of like, what even is success with this? 33:22.770 --> 33:26.416 [SPEAKER_03]: I think that's a great question because I love what you said. 33:26.436 --> 33:30.522 [SPEAKER_03]: It's this idea that setbacks don't mean failures, right? 33:30.602 --> 33:37.372 [SPEAKER_03]: And progress, not perfection is the way to overcome something that has been habitual, that has been integrated. 33:37.572 --> 33:44.663 [SPEAKER_03]: It takes a long time to, like if you think about you first saw this when you were nine, this is something that was with you for. 33:44.643 --> 34:06.465 [SPEAKER_03]: many years of your life right as a coping mechanism for some of this these things that require deeper work and it can take a long time to do that work and to overcome those things and so if you have decided that any time you make a mistake you've completely failed in what's the point of even starting then there's really you're always going to find yourself back in that same 34:06.445 --> 34:10.712 [SPEAKER_03]: Please and you're always going to be adding shame back to the mix of saying great. 34:10.732 --> 34:11.213 [SPEAKER_03]: I failed. 34:11.233 --> 34:22.632 [SPEAKER_03]: I failed at my expectation And so I do think we always encourage progress over perfection and you know We kind of look at this from two perspectives obviously 34:22.612 --> 34:24.634 [SPEAKER_03]: We want to remove shame. 34:24.694 --> 34:33.043 [SPEAKER_03]: We want consumers to be able to or important viewers or however you want to identify as someone with an addict, a composer, to be able to overcome that. 34:33.083 --> 34:35.265 [SPEAKER_03]: So porn is not something controlling their lives. 34:35.345 --> 34:49.800 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, we have seen all of the research that shows how pornography negatively impacts individuals, their relationships, but then there's also a societal piece of this, where we are seeing the people who are being exploited through pornography. 34:49.780 --> 35:08.532 [SPEAKER_03]: And the people on the other side of this year, and we're fighting for them too, and so, you know, our ultimate goal as an organization is to help create a world free from exploitation, to help create a world where everyone is so educated, you know, we could, we could, as a society band together and say, let's, 35:08.512 --> 35:09.494 [SPEAKER_03]: Banned pornography. 35:09.794 --> 35:11.056 [SPEAKER_03]: We can say that all day long. 35:11.557 --> 35:12.298 [SPEAKER_03]: It will never go. 35:12.779 --> 35:15.664 [SPEAKER_03]: This is something that's been around for all of time. 35:15.704 --> 35:16.265 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 35:16.586 --> 35:19.430 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, banning things doesn't necessarily stop them. 35:19.831 --> 35:34.215 [SPEAKER_03]: So we, we would love, you know, to protect children, especially legislation that can help protect children who need so much right now, you know, legislative efforts to maintain. 35:35.579 --> 35:41.786 [SPEAKER_03]: accountability for acts that are already illegal and making sure we have safeguards in place for those things. 35:42.487 --> 35:50.896 [SPEAKER_03]: But outside of that, our goal is to decrease the demand for sexual exploitation and also to decrease the demand for pornography across the board. 35:51.016 --> 35:57.883 [SPEAKER_03]: So we want everyone to become so educated that yes, we're striving for a progress of a perfection. 35:57.943 --> 36:02.228 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, this is something people are able to overcome and heal in their own way. 36:02.208 --> 36:07.556 [SPEAKER_03]: We don't want anyone back in a shame spiral that's sending them back into this as we know from research. 36:07.576 --> 36:29.447 [SPEAKER_03]: That's what shame does But we also want to Build a society that that demands something better and that wants something better and that isn't willing to accept People being exploited that isn't willing to accept content that is perpetuating stereotypes that are harmful against women against people of color like we we want to demand 36:29.427 --> 36:31.230 [SPEAKER_03]: and fight for something better. 36:31.831 --> 36:34.334 [SPEAKER_03]: So we're approaching this from both sides. 36:34.354 --> 36:34.995 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I can see that. 36:35.015 --> 36:39.883 [SPEAKER_03]: I think society success for us is to not have sexual exploitation in society. 36:40.444 --> 36:40.544 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 36:40.564 --> 36:53.043 [SPEAKER_03]: And then on an individual level, we want everyone to get to experience the freedom that we know from thousands of people we've spoken to or heard from who've been able to overcome a struggle with pornography. 36:53.083 --> 36:57.730 [SPEAKER_03]: The freedom that comes from not having to be something that controls your life. 36:57.710 --> 37:06.719 [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, there's strength in vulnerability and relationships that can be built when this isn't something controlling their life as an individual or in a relationship. 37:06.799 --> 37:10.243 [SPEAKER_03]: Not just romantic relationships, but platonic as well. 37:10.363 --> 37:12.765 [SPEAKER_03]: So I think it's a great question. 37:12.865 --> 37:20.754 [SPEAKER_03]: But to any listeners who are in a similar position to you, we would say just one step out of time, right? 37:20.854 --> 37:25.118 [SPEAKER_03]: Just navigate the next challenge and finally through the next. 37:25.098 --> 37:43.815 [SPEAKER_03]: The next step, and that does mean that there will probably be setbacks, that's often part of the process of recovery, and that's okay, and the goal is to gain information from them, to learn from them, and to be able to move forward with that information as you've done, to say, okay, I'll have a conversation with my wife about it. 37:43.875 --> 37:53.164 [SPEAKER_03]: We'll figure out what were we escaping, what was going you have clear expectations around, around what you're navigating in that moment. 37:53.144 --> 37:57.349 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if I heard it or what but it's like shameless educate more. 37:57.529 --> 38:01.374 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's like I think that would solve so many everything. 38:01.474 --> 38:09.283 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and I mean, we often talk about it can sound silly, but you know for most people who want to It's milk a cigarette today. 38:09.343 --> 38:18.814 [SPEAKER_03]: There's a warning label on the package that says hey, you can totally choose to do this but just FYI I'm paraphrasing obviously doesn't say this 38:18.794 --> 38:37.539 [SPEAKER_03]: Just FYI, these are some negative health effects that could happen with this habit, and the goal would be to be able to educate people about those same harms of pornography that absolutely exist, but often porn is reaching people before this education and information can reach people. 38:37.659 --> 38:46.270 [SPEAKER_03]: And so the habit is built well before the warning comes and then it's something that we have to 38:47.752 --> 38:49.996 [SPEAKER_03]: Is there anything we haven't spoken about yet today? 38:50.016 --> 38:52.662 [SPEAKER_03]: I want to give you a chance to talk a little bit about the work you're doing. 38:52.702 --> 38:57.511 [SPEAKER_01]: You mentioned like what are the misconceptions with this? 38:57.571 --> 38:59.816 [SPEAKER_01]: And I do want to hit on that one more time. 38:59.836 --> 39:09.034 [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like when somebody has an urge to view pornography, they have essentially three ways they can go about it. 39:09.470 --> 39:16.309 [SPEAKER_01]: And the two most common are they can either go view porn, or they can distract themselves. 39:17.272 --> 39:21.143 [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't feel like either is very effective. 39:22.125 --> 39:24.492 [SPEAKER_01]: I do think there's actually a third option. 39:24.944 --> 39:35.535 [SPEAKER_01]: because if you go and you look apporned and you feel shame, you're going to reinforce more urges, if you go and you distract yourself, you run from the urge. 39:36.095 --> 39:49.669 [SPEAKER_01]: You're not solving like we're saying that at signal that's going off, like, hey, there's something going on, look underneath the hood, but if you're just running, like going to the gym, which can be good to create some momentum. 39:49.818 --> 40:02.102 [SPEAKER_01]: but also like the third option is actually sitting and like listen to what it's trying to say and learn like you said learn from what is it communicating? 40:02.603 --> 40:08.535 [SPEAKER_01]: Because if you're escaping a wound or trauma or whatever it is, 40:08.515 --> 40:11.001 [SPEAKER_01]: And you are distracting yourself. 40:11.663 --> 40:14.490 [SPEAKER_01]: You are not solving the problem. 40:14.650 --> 40:16.294 [SPEAKER_01]: You are just running, right? 40:16.655 --> 40:18.740 [SPEAKER_01]: Which is essentially what you're doing with porn again. 40:18.780 --> 40:24.735 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I would just say a misconception is, I think the way out of it. 40:24.715 --> 40:33.326 [SPEAKER_01]: is to not run from it, is to actually sit in it and learn from it, learn what it's trying to communicate, learn the lessons that it's trying to give. 40:33.826 --> 40:41.215 [SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of more of a spiritual way to look at it, but that's what's really helped me is it's a signal that something's off. 40:41.235 --> 40:46.622 [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, if I look at porn when I'm 45, right, which used to be my biggest fear, 40:47.480 --> 40:50.228 [SPEAKER_01]: All it is, it's a car signaling. 40:50.529 --> 40:56.967 [SPEAKER_01]: Something's off, don't freak out, just address what is going on in the neighborhood, and that's been a big help for me. 40:56.980 --> 41:04.169 [SPEAKER_03]: I love the way you said that because I think so often we think of this as like, okay, I'm getting, I'm going to kick my porn habit. 41:04.489 --> 41:14.122 [SPEAKER_03]: And if you're thinking about it, when you're not in those moments where you are experiencing that urge, you could think, okay, what's the deeper feeling here that I need to address? 41:14.182 --> 41:15.844 [SPEAKER_03]: And you can think through what it might be. 41:16.344 --> 41:23.513 [SPEAKER_03]: But as you mentioned, if corn is a symptom of something deeper, the best way to know what it's the symptom of is when you're in the moment. 41:23.533 --> 41:24.034 [SPEAKER_02]: When you're in there, who 41:24.014 --> 41:26.016 [SPEAKER_03]: choosing it as the coping mechanisms. 41:26.036 --> 41:26.457 [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly. 41:26.477 --> 41:30.902 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's a really difficult thing to do to sit in that discomfort. 41:31.043 --> 41:33.506 [SPEAKER_03]: That's why we have coping mechanisms in the first place. 41:34.687 --> 41:45.600 [SPEAKER_03]: But I think that's that's great advice for someone to be able to to try to sit in and try to discover what it is that they are actually experiencing in that moment. 41:46.241 --> 41:48.183 [SPEAKER_01]: Or even after you view. 41:48.304 --> 41:48.764 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 41:48.784 --> 41:49.085 [SPEAKER_01]: Right. 41:49.105 --> 41:52.789 [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of guys they view and if they have a lot of shame around it, 41:52.769 --> 41:54.172 [SPEAKER_01]: They're like, all right, now I'm going to be good. 41:54.212 --> 42:05.597 [SPEAKER_01]: Now I'm going to be dialed in our orange and sweep it on the rug, but it's like, no, can you just like get curious just for a second and just like, okay, I did this thing that I didn't want to do, that's okay. 42:06.033 --> 42:28.851 [SPEAKER_01]: What can I learn and can I be curious of what happened and that's where I think I was like to say there's a lot of room for growth before the urge and before the mess up let's call it but there's also so much growth to be had after a mess up can you love yourself even though you just did something that you didn't necessarily want to do. 42:28.831 --> 42:29.632 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 42:29.652 --> 42:36.162 [SPEAKER_03]: And if you think about it, really, if pornography is the coping mechanism to help you escape, it's avoidant, right? 42:36.282 --> 42:46.557 [SPEAKER_03]: It's you're not wanting to think about what you're feeling so you're using porn and then if you're using porn and then feeling bad about it and so you're avoiding that you even engaged with it. 42:46.657 --> 42:47.278 [SPEAKER_03]: If you 42:47.258 --> 42:54.271 [SPEAKER_03]: All along the way you're avoiding everything you'll never actually get to the root of what is causing that morning light to go off, right? 42:54.391 --> 42:56.876 [SPEAKER_03]: What is causing that symptom of the deeper problem? 42:56.916 --> 43:11.342 [SPEAKER_03]: And so being able to To start to practice that, you know, practice that process of the before during and after To be able to find your way into what you might be actually trying to cope with is really significant. 43:11.322 --> 43:17.669 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and essentially that's, that's what I found helpful for me and that's what I do for work now. 43:17.869 --> 43:18.049 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 43:18.069 --> 43:19.992 [SPEAKER_01]: Like that is what I do. 43:20.012 --> 43:33.887 [SPEAKER_01]: I have a program for men that feel like they're struggling with this and that's really what it's about is learning to understand what porn is trying to communicate to you. 43:33.867 --> 43:42.358 [SPEAKER_01]: And when you do that you mentioned earlier in the podcast like freedom doesn't hasn't felt so good or what did you say exactly something about freedom 43:42.659 --> 43:44.061 [SPEAKER_01]: feeling so good, right? 43:44.081 --> 43:51.534 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, to be able to experience the freedom that we know from research and thousands of people telling us is possible. 43:51.754 --> 43:55.761 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and in freedom to me, I always thought it would look like all right. 43:55.781 --> 43:57.163 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to may first. 43:57.244 --> 43:58.365 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm done, right? 43:58.446 --> 44:01.170 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm going to be 700 days clean, right? 44:01.932 --> 44:05.798 [SPEAKER_01]: But for me, what freedom is actually felt like is, 44:05.930 --> 44:11.035 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my desire to few isn't even really there. 44:11.616 --> 44:13.218 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I don't even want it. 44:14.119 --> 44:14.759 [SPEAKER_02]: Right. 44:14.779 --> 44:18.163 [SPEAKER_01]: And that is where I feel like there's so much power. 44:18.203 --> 44:23.108 [SPEAKER_01]: Because I mean, gritting your teeth and white, not going this whole life. 44:23.148 --> 44:25.871 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a pretty sucky way to live. 44:25.931 --> 44:31.317 [SPEAKER_01]: And there is a place where you can get to the point where you don't even want to anymore. 44:31.377 --> 44:34.620 [SPEAKER_01]: Not saying that you're going to be perfect the rest of your life. 44:34.600 --> 44:38.491 [SPEAKER_01]: your desire is going to go to like a two out of ten instead of a nine out of ten. 44:38.791 --> 44:41.659 [SPEAKER_03]: Which puts it back in a place where you ultimately have control. 44:41.679 --> 44:49.420 [SPEAKER_03]: Do you have any like success stories from your program in the work that you've done that you want to share? 44:50.682 --> 45:08.653 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I would say there's two things that come to mind is one, we've helped a lot of guys have this first conversation with their wife and in my program we do provide some wife support as well so that they can go and express how they're actually feeling around this. 45:09.254 --> 45:11.037 [SPEAKER_01]: So there they're 45:11.017 --> 45:33.463 [SPEAKER_01]: I won't say names, but there was this one experience where he was actually one of my friends, he came in and he'd been married for like two or three years and he had never had this conversation with his wife and he came into the program and we finally got the courage to have this conversation with his wife and 45:34.068 --> 45:56.515 [SPEAKER_01]: He did and their relationship because I remember intimacy is into me you see and so they're able to see each other on such a deeper level even though it was a struggle that their relationship just like skyrocketed and unfortunately six months later this guy he actually passed away. 45:56.917 --> 46:14.632 [SPEAKER_01]: And as sad as that is, it was really beautiful to see their relationship, just go to that next level for the last six months of his life and that's when it really settled in of like, okay, we're doing this. 46:14.833 --> 46:25.742 [SPEAKER_01]: We're really trying to help people, just like you guys have an organization are doing, it is a real problem and 46:25.722 --> 46:40.795 [SPEAKER_01]: It I think it can be easier than you think and it can happen faster than you think to overcome it, but you just need the right tools to actually do the job, which I think you guys are doing a great job at preaching. 46:40.977 --> 46:41.458 [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you. 46:41.899 --> 47:04.318 [SPEAKER_03]: And I am so grateful you shared that with us, and I think it's just such a beautiful reminder that, you know, there's there's never going to be a great time to just close something that is so difficult or that you struggled with, but as soon as you can is always best right, just think it's something that anyone we've ever had the opportunity to have a conversation with. 47:04.298 --> 47:13.330 [SPEAKER_03]: Like you, who's not only experienced this themselves, but also helped others through their own journeys of being able to overcome pornography. 47:13.851 --> 47:25.767 [SPEAKER_03]: That is kind of a resounding thing that we hear is the way that all of their relationships, not just with romantic partners, but all of their relationships in their lives, with their friends, with their family members, with their co-workers, 47:25.747 --> 47:39.199 [SPEAKER_03]: We're able to flourish and have deeper connection because they were able to get to the root of some of these things that that, you know, cause us to have coping mechanisms to keep distance with people in our lives. 47:39.299 --> 47:45.044 [SPEAKER_03]: And it's such a beautiful gift to be able to experience that in this lifetime. 47:45.104 --> 47:55.753 [SPEAKER_03]: And so any encouragement we could give to someone who's thought about, you know, 47:55.733 --> 48:03.241 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, no two journeys look the same, but the freedom that waits on the other side is so, so beautiful. 48:03.762 --> 48:09.308 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I would say it's hard, but it's not as hard as dealing with this real life. 48:09.448 --> 48:11.069 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I will say that. 48:12.191 --> 48:19.058 [SPEAKER_03]: And for anyone who's maybe listening, who has felt hopeless, do you have any kind of final thoughts you want to leave them with? 48:25.349 --> 48:37.452 [SPEAKER_01]: I would say that there is, if someone would have told me to, or three years ago that I'd be where I'm at today, I would be like, no, like, I don't believe it. 48:38.413 --> 48:44.725 [SPEAKER_01]: And so there is light at the end of the tunnel, and maybe, 48:44.705 --> 48:55.806 [SPEAKER_01]: Just maybe what you're trying isn't working, so maybe it's time to try something new, like bringing you out of start and putting it in the light and having a conversation with someone. 48:56.146 --> 49:01.296 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so well said, well it is such an honor to get to chat with you in person. 49:01.376 --> 49:05.143 [SPEAKER_03]: I have plenty of things I'd love to ask you and hopefully you'll come back and join us. 49:05.123 --> 49:13.193 [SPEAKER_03]: some time in the future, I'd love to hear more about the work you've been able to do and in the stories you have of those you're able to help through this. 49:13.794 --> 49:19.941 [SPEAKER_03]: If someone's looking to learn more about you or look into your program, where would you like to direct? 49:20.022 --> 49:23.546 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so there's two two spots. 49:23.746 --> 49:28.772 [SPEAKER_01]: The first, they do have a podcast called QuickPorn with Hunter Clarke. 49:28.913 --> 49:31.696 [SPEAKER_01]: And then the second is just on my Instagram. 49:31.876 --> 49:34.860 [SPEAKER_01]: It's underscore hunter.clark. 49:34.840 --> 49:43.570 [SPEAKER_01]: And I have a website on my bio that you can click on if you are interested in just hopping on a call with us and just seeing what it would look like to work together. 49:43.590 --> 49:47.434 [SPEAKER_01]: Or I post everything that I'm learning. 49:47.454 --> 49:50.677 [SPEAKER_01]: So if you want to just follow along the journey, just do that out there. 49:51.218 --> 49:52.059 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, thank you so much. 49:52.119 --> 49:58.906 [SPEAKER_03]: And to our listeners, we hope that you do choose to follow Hunter and stay tuned for more conversations like this in the future. 49:59.307 --> 49:59.567 [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks. 49:59.868 --> 50:00.308 [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you. 50:02.262 --> 50:04.986 [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for joining us on this episode of Consider Before Consuming. 50:05.587 --> 50:08.512 [SPEAKER_00]: Consider Before Consuming is brought to you by Fight The New Drug. 50:09.053 --> 50:25.999 [SPEAKER_00]: Fight The New Drug is a non-religious and a non-legislative organization that exists to provide individuals the opportunity to make an informed decision regarding pornography by raising awareness on its harmful effects using only science, facts, and personal accounts. 50:26.560 --> 50:29.805 [SPEAKER_00]: Check out the episode notes for resources mentioned in this episode. 50:29.785 --> 50:33.454 [SPEAKER_00]: If you find this podcast helpful, consider subscribing and leaving a review. 50:33.915 --> 50:35.018 [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks again for listening. 50:35.539 --> 50:43.018 [SPEAKER_00]: We invite you to increase your self-awareness, look both ways, check your blind spots, and consider before consuming.