[SPEAKER_00]: hey everybody welcome back to the mastering rod building podcast i'm your host billfock and we got something a little bit different for for you today i'm really excited so please allow me without further ado to welcome today's guest and that is captain john erwin uh and so
[SPEAKER_00]: If you are anywhere near the Charleston area or have fished that area or know who's who among guides and outfitters in that area, then you probably know him as a full-time guide in the Charleston area since 2000 and 2000.
[SPEAKER_00]: He is the man behind fly-right charters.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can www.flyrightcharters.com, and you can reach him at 843-860-4231.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sorry, we'll put the rest in the links.
[SPEAKER_00]: and he does ensure near shore and offshore.
[SPEAKER_00]: So he's he's a very well-traveled angler and experienced guy and does some pretty exciting and fascinating stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: But he's also a Shimano master brand advocate.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's part of the G-Lumus skeleton crew.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's vicious for Z-man, sponsored by Tyborr, if you know, excellent fly reels, Patagonia, Afko.
[SPEAKER_00]: uh... one of my emerging favorites marshware great several others but uh... he's also thank you captain john very active uh... with the cc a and south carolina which uh... we appreciate and look up so much to you know afko and shmano and all they do to support those causes uh... if you if you love fishing on television you've probably seen captain john or one before because he's been
[SPEAKER_00]: featured several times on the obsession of Carter Andrews.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's see, you've done tailing red fish in the grass on the flats.
[SPEAKER_00]: You've done like Kobe a more near shore offshore.
[SPEAKER_00]: You've served done a little bit of it all.
[SPEAKER_00]: But without further ado, welcome, Captain John Irwin.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for having me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, thanks for being here, man.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I ask all my guests.
[SPEAKER_00]: I normally, if they're rod builders, ask them how they got into rod building.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I'm always fascinated with those folks who are clever enough and brave and foolish enough to become full-time.
[SPEAKER_00]: full-time guides and and move from the pointy into the boat to the back where all the work gets done.
[SPEAKER_00]: How did how did you get into fishing in the first place?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is this just something you've done your whole life?
[SPEAKER_01]: Since it is hit or yeah it's definitely something I've done my whole life as a kid started with a lot of bass and fly fishing pretty early on but just a little bit of everything.
[SPEAKER_01]: a lot of fishing with my mom, a lot of fishing with my dad, yeah, just a little bit of salt water, a ton of fresh water, so a little bit of everything, I spent some time in Montana, in the early 90s, I worked out there and around the big Sky West Yellowstone area, so I really kind of have done.
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess a little bit of everything in the course of my fishing career.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's Charleston home originally or now I was born in Charlotte about three hours from here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now I have a son who's finishing up his second semester of his senior year at Wake Forest.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we're in Winston.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: The time and man Charleston, what a cool area and what an amazing fishery, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm jealous that you are one of those few fisheries where you can kind of
[SPEAKER_00]: either for your clients, they can do whatever they want to do based on pretty much everything being there, you know, subject to weather and seasonal availability and all that, but it's fascinating that you got into fly in that area because that's it's more common that people go a conventional route than just a fly route in sort of that area.
[SPEAKER_00]: What's the mix of your business?
[SPEAKER_00]: Would you say a compare fly compared to conventional?
[SPEAKER_01]: I would say I'm probably about half and half.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I definitely was early on cutting my teeth on that fly side was definitely like a little bit of an easier niche.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think to get the business up and going off the ground and honestly, you know, and
[SPEAKER_01]: 2002 and 2003.
[SPEAKER_01]: There weren't many people.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it was a little bit easier.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, I think the specialized in that, but our our fly community has grown enormously.
[SPEAKER_00]: And uh, really good flash-ups in that area too.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we've had some good ones.
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, we've had some coming go and then we've had always that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so we've got some good ones.
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, we miss, we miss the Charleston
[SPEAKER_01]: And the life of the thru flash out, you know, but we still got good.
[SPEAKER_00]: I still have my t-shirts from both of those places that I wear.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, yeah, it's a great deal.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, great spots.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_00]: But, uh, well, that's fascinating.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, I, I tell these friends of mine that are, you know, it's funny.
[SPEAKER_00]: With from the outside, if you haven't been close to it, a lot of people look at a guy and say, oh, you're so lucky.
[SPEAKER_00]: You get to fish for a living and I'm like,
[SPEAKER_00]: you see how few of these guys make it past 45 and how they all have bad news and bad backs and digestive issues.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, man, this is a a lot harder work than people think it is and, but, amen.
[SPEAKER_00]: I keep telling these guys like, man, you got it.
[SPEAKER_00]: You got to get on the fly side because you need it because the expectation in Venice, you know, is a full limit of everything every single day, no matter what, no matter the conditions or what the weather's doing or
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you got to cut fish and you got to do all this stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, dude, if you get with the flag guys, like they're going to be happy if they get like six to eight shots at fish a day.
[SPEAKER_00]: They understand if they blow it or if they miss one.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're not mad at you about that.
[SPEAKER_00]: You've done your job.
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to cut any fish.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, like, this is better.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you can charge them twice as much.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, but it's the trade off.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you put it around all day with that black stick right.
[SPEAKER_01]: You get up or or catch all the bait you need for the day.
[SPEAKER_01]: I said there's there's some trade offs one one to the other first year, but I do appreciate a really good fly day and I really really appreciate a really good spin fisherman with some soft plastic.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, man, you can get it done.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'll catch them all the ways.
[SPEAKER_00]: The thing that's interesting to me is I just feel like being
[SPEAKER_00]: Getting dialed in at each one makes you better at the other.
[SPEAKER_00]: There are things to learn on both sides that can make you a better angler.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'll leave it there.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can get up on a soapbox.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Clearly, you also like have done as much work with for and besides Shimano as you possibly can without being a full time Shimano person.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like this being an MBA master brand advocate is a big deal.
[SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, Shimano needs no introduction.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so the topic today.
[SPEAKER_00]: is interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think a lot of people might look at it and be like, well, what does this have to do with rod building?
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's matching the rod to the real, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And to me, it's not just matching the rod to the real, it's sort of thinking about it as a tackle system, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I have custom rod building clients come to me all the time looking for me to help fit them into the right rod for a technique specific application.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, the same's true, the line, the leader, the real, all that goes together and another thing I would share with our custom rod building audience.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, half the time I build rods these days, it's a gift.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a father's day gift.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a Christmas gift.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a retirement gift.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a thank you for bringing me into this business deal gift.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a thank you coach for a great season.
[SPEAKER_00]: Get whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: And a lot of times these people who aren't anglers who are buying for an angler want the whole thing, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: They just, if you give them a rod only, you're giving them half of what they need.
[SPEAKER_00]: So they're like, can you get me a real?
[SPEAKER_00]: Can you spool it up?
[SPEAKER_00]: Can you can we be ready to go?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think,
[SPEAKER_00]: uh... having an informed opinion about this beyond just being an angler yourself in a rod builder can help a rod builder because if you do enough volume you can get in with uh... real company and perhaps you know or work with somebody like mudhold custom tackle and get some of your stuff at some discount and you can actually be making money on the rod and the real if you're trying to turn this into a viable business so
[SPEAKER_00]: All that being said, this is not to me at all a slant topic, and I really appreciate you joining.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we could, we'll start at 30,000 feet, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: So generally speaking, and you have a unique perspective, because you do it all basically.
[SPEAKER_00]: You do freshwater and you do all the flavors of salt water, conventional and fly, insure and near shore offshore, and you do it full time all the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's right.
[SPEAKER_00]: So talk to me about how you start thinking about matching a rod to a real just at a high level and then we can sort of sort of dive and down some of these rabbit holes or specific, you know techniques and things.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, like just like a general like a
[SPEAKER_01]: cookie cutter the day like everything that goes into my boat when it comes to like a good spending day and I would say like I'm fishing tomorrow morning okay so you know I'm going to be in my little skip and we're going to be 100% focused mostly on red fishing and probably like a little bit of sheep said fishing towards the end of the trip just the way the tide is so when I packed that
[SPEAKER_01]: the first three things that go in there are three different rods like it's on for throwing three different types of plastics and maybe a little bit of top water and then a little bit of bait stuff uh just in case so uh but the but the um yeah i got basically three rods that i'm using to perform three different tasks really when i'm finishing artificial lures right
[SPEAKER_00]: And so therefore three different reals right so so like the first thing comes in on there you're playing in some of that space where you can get right there on the bubble between casting and spinning right and and so this is a choice people need to make right like I know right as you throw classics on jigheads for the kind of stuff you're talking about or through
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, she said jigs and filler crabs or whatever with casting.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I know even more people who are on was spinning like obviously a regular comfort level and proficiency as part of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I assume since spinners are a little easier for most people.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're probably going out most of the time with spinners.
[SPEAKER_00]: But how do you how do you counsel people how to think about this or what are the mistakes you see most often in people that aren't match and stuff up right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know, I think one of the biggest things here that you run into is
[SPEAKER_01]: like a day like tomorrow.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know the fish are going to be sensitive.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know I'm going to have to be throwing a lot of times something pretty small, really subtle.
[SPEAKER_01]: I need to have the right rod to be able to get that thing out there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: A good little ways, you know, especially if you're fishing those fish in the shallow water and they're schooled up, you know, and you got that little bait
[SPEAKER_01]: I think a lot of people first starting out are not getting things paired up the way that they need to.
[SPEAKER_01]: pair of things up.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're kind of looking at a rod and or a guy in the tackle shop.
[SPEAKER_01]: And here you go.
[SPEAKER_01]: Here's your bread and butter seven and a half foot or seven foot.
[SPEAKER_01]: You start getting down until a lot of those seven foot actions.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think you're getting a little bit too stiff to throw some of that lighter stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: You need something that's really got some whip to that tip and you're able to
[SPEAKER_01]: get those lighter baits out there in the distance.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and the trade off, and we've talked about this on this podcast before, in generally speaking, if you're sneaking around, shooting under docks or having to hit real specific targets from a close to range, a shorter rod makes it easier to do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, longer rod really helps with casting distance and hooks at capability at the end of a cast at long fishing distances.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's a trade off, but yeah, for that application where you're trying to stay off the fish
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean to me, it's like ducks.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a lot easier to get one or two to come in and get 50 to come in because it's just so many eyes, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so so many things can spook those fish at that distance, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm interested and I've been ever since we started getting you scheduled, I've been kind of wanting to ask you this question.
[SPEAKER_00]: I historically always thought about, okay, let's talk about throwing light plastics like an eight-dance jighead with a plastic or a Z-man nethead with a, I don't know, a diesel mineral or I don't know what y'all are throwing normally.
[SPEAKER_00]: If this is stuff I threw, I love the Z-man stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: So awesome, gets a bit, holds up well, great stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: But what you find is sometimes even if a 2,000 or 2,500 size reel would do the job,
[SPEAKER_00]: I can get more casting distance school with the same line on a 3000 sometimes or a bigger real like are you thinking about how big the real is based on that casting and not just online capacity and drag or walk me through house a guide you think about that when you're matching the tackle up.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can I can see that point there you know the way that that line is going to feather off that school a lot of times.
[SPEAKER_01]: When you look at a lot of the real models and some people are really familiar with this some people not as much, but a lot of times you've got the same exact real body, which is a different size, so if that is a concern, you know, naturally with the bigger spool and the way the technology is now and the way that the line is laying across that spool, it's different than it was a year ago and it's way different than it was five years ago.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, so that casting proficiency, um, some stuff that's going on with the guides now that there's so much going into getting getting you the distance and stuff like that that you need, um, you know, so a lot of the stuff that almost everything I'm fishing I've got some 1000s in there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, well, certain applications.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then we're all up mostly 2500 and 3000, but that is a good point that the larger the spool, you know, we've got a nice spool spool on.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's going to come off there nice.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: How do you, when you're fishing, we're talking about in short examples right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we'll stick with that for the moment.
[SPEAKER_00]: Are you most run and braid to a leader?
[SPEAKER_00]: Or do you run a combination of braid and sometimes straight mono, sometimes straight floro?
[SPEAKER_00]: Or how do you know,
[SPEAKER_01]: Bray to leader, mostly eight, the 10 pound for absolutely everything.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, and then FG not and usually here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, you know, the leader here, I think, not so much important that the fish are visually seeing your line.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're definitely getting into some time right now where the water is clear enough where I can notice it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's what they're seeing.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're seeing something that they don't like sometimes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know if it's the one or what the lure is doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: But,
[SPEAKER_01]: Generally, 20 is totally fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're more combating the oyster beds and the stuff that's down there.
[SPEAKER_01]: You need some resistance there and then with those jigs and stuff, the braid is so soft and the way it moves in the water, just some rigidity down there about where you're making contact with the lure helps keep everything running just right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and it's so interesting how regional this stuff is like I don't know if a guy who goes out in Louisiana with less than 30 pound brain and here we're 10 right, but this is a perfect example or yeah, but there's a perfect example of what we're talking about right that's dirty day water, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: and it helps them get more corks and plastics out and the fish will eat it anyway.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: 8 to 10 is pretty light, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like that's that's what I'm running on the BFS kind of setups.
[SPEAKER_00]: But of course, you're going to be able to cast a lot further with that stuff than you are with on your 30 pound braid.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had some guys the other day from a tackle shop in like around Santa Reza Beach, Panama City area.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I guess like down going on down right now,
[SPEAKER_01]: We got out there the other day.
[SPEAKER_01]: The tide wasn't quite right.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I hand the guy the rod and a crab and a hook.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he was like, what am I doing with this?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, they fish where she said all the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's like, there is no wave that the sheep said down by us, whatever bite this.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, the the the length of the leader, like I guess they're very, very tricky.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, dude.
[SPEAKER_01]: They can still have been hard to catch.
[SPEAKER_00]: Dude, if you pressure him and they're in clear water.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, yeah, it makes a difference.
[SPEAKER_01]: He broke off a couple of times that I tied it on.
[SPEAKER_01]: He said that leader long enough.
[SPEAKER_01]: I said, man, if I can tie not in and it's long enough.
[SPEAKER_00]: But now if my brother and I talk about this all the time, don't guide the guy dude, like, you know, man, you paid to be in my boat for a reason.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I tell you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me try that thing right on there for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just drop it down, man.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's so funny.
[SPEAKER_01]: They were, they were tripping out of me with catches great fish.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: he's like no way this works down by us no way and we're all prisoners of the moment that residency right like if he's seen that be true in his fishery he could be forgiven for being like I can't believe they needed here exactly yeah we're he think we're going snapper fishing if you saw what people are fishing for him with an orange beach i mean it's geared up you know like people are not using white and short tackle for sheep said and and it's going to be that time of the year for us they just show up and man it's on
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, right, right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm somebody teaches you a certain way.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're bound to stick with it for quite some time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and you're not arguing that that's the truth of their fishery.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're just saying, Bro, I know my fishery.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let me, I promise I can take you to the promised land, right, but I'm trying to get my sheep set on a fly.
[SPEAKER_00]: I, you know, they, it's such an interesting fish for us down here because we have them around all the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have them here coming up February and March.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're covered up it, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's all anybody's doing in Fiddler crabs are hard to get.
[SPEAKER_00]: But for for for as easy as they are to catch on a Fiddler crab.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you can have them at will when you're on the right spots in there here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Boy, it's hard to get them to eat a flyer of plastic or a tab lure.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I'm going to get it done.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not giving up.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, no, go to Louisiana.
[SPEAKER_01]: They always bite the fly.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm actually, I'm actually mad to see him when I'm down there.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, I hear wasting my time.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Get out of here.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll get me a flounder or red fish.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to mess with you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, let's pivot for a second while we're talking about the insure stuff because I'm always keen when I get someone who's got way more experience and knowledge than me to pick the brain and learn from them.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if we think about the fly side on the insure side of things, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm really torn enough two minds, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So when we tend to, I have a bias, I'm going to go as light as I can, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm not scared of those six weight at some red fish, even bigger at fish.
[SPEAKER_00]: if the conditions weren't it, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: If it's calm and chill, I'm put generally going to run a seven or eight, you know, and and I've always kind of gone with the reality is I've never had a redfish put me much in the backing, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's not to say they're not strong, powerful, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's not like hooking a bone fish or a permit or a tarp and or something that may dump you, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So do you
[SPEAKER_00]: do you go a little more like you could almost use a hardcore saltwater safe trout real like typeworm makes such good reels you could use a five, six size real based on capacity but do you still go ahead and go with the big what weight I think you want that balance you know I think sometimes if you get a little bit especially with the fly rod and the casting techniques and stuff that you employ to
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, make those things happen.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think there is a certain balance in and relates every to the spinning table.
[SPEAKER_01]: You need to achieve some kind of a balance.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think maybe it's something that you notice maybe early in an angling career, but as longer.
[SPEAKER_01]: that you do at you feel like man, you know, certain things feel right.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I still think you got to get get balanced and I think the magic, you know, especially with the fly stuff, the magic really happens with the good cast, you know, even the fish are a little bit standoffish and a little bit spooky of seeing it so many times.
[SPEAKER_01]: And last Monday was just kind of a text book day we had a big front
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was already cold, and it was calm, and it was sunny, and it was nice, and they were doing it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's the same sounds for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not a water, all the, all the things were lining up.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had a, a guy that, uh, I have, um, usually he's in and out here for periods of time.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was kind of his first,
[SPEAKER_01]: trip and come back.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, well, you came back on the right day.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you run it out.
[SPEAKER_01]: You run it even fish like that that are moving good and they're eating good.
[SPEAKER_01]: The magic really happens when if you were using a non-way or a six-way, you know, depending upon the angler's ability, when that line and that leader and everything turns over just right, I don't think it really matters like what you're using.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, if the cast is good, it's going to work.
[SPEAKER_01]: If the cast is bad, it's got a 50-50 chance.
[SPEAKER_01]: If the cast is real bad, now we're about 9, 10, 90.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we're kind of...
[SPEAKER_01]: going that way, but it really, it's amazing how much, even with the red fish, it's how much it comes down to the presentation and how much you, you have to feed the fish to fly.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: That whole deal would like putting it in there, letting them swim up to it.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's about my least favorite thing on.
[SPEAKER_01]: to feed it to the fish.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the active, the aggressive.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, make it happen.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's a good, the balance is a good point, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because you put too small a real on a heavier rod, even if that's enough backing capacity, it makes a rod tip heavy, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: The new, it's tiring, it doesn't balance well, it gets tired, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's a very interesting perspective that I see what you're saying.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you do a lot of mixed trips?
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you do trips where you take out boats?
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's always like, uh,
[SPEAKER_01]: And in an environment like ours, I mean, we've had some tides lately, I mean, you've got seven feet of water movement.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's literally twice our tide.
[SPEAKER_01]: The fish, when you get something like that, you know, our fish aren't moving around a lot, but then you have to move with the tide.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: When you get the steep curves like that and that, that good time transit.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you were talking earlier about you're going to go out like tomorrow with three different things and we talked a little bit about you know seven and a half or longer with enough tip that you can actually throw this thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and we talked about the real setup and the light line and being having the real full make sure you get that distance.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we talked about the sizes a little bit talk to me about the other two you're talking about the three so talk to me about the other two setups the heavier ones and that well how else are you thinking about those.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, not always necessarily a ton heavier, but just like kind of a different technique, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're kind of getting into the seven footers, you know, something like for more accurate casting, you know, if there's some dot fishing involved and a few things like that going on, definitely want that shorter stick.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then a couple like I love the NRX pluses,
[SPEAKER_01]: So many things, and then that new pro green.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, that's uh, they've been hard to get your hands on.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're really popular, but um, for good reason.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: They have a great feel and there's a really good seven foot model.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, and those as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I couldn't talk about this for a long time, but I can't talk about it now.
[SPEAKER_00]: We took the G-Lumus guys there as the North American food.
[SPEAKER_00]: G-distributor right, they're one of our customers and we appreciate them very much.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: We got to take them down to Venice.
[SPEAKER_00]: to test the NRX ensures when they heard tail of this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Dude, I got to tell you, um, and I have built everything in, and, and that broad, that the, I think it was a seven foot, three power, maybe, oh my god.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's got a good, great feel.
[SPEAKER_00]: Unbelievable.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was, they showed them to me like the night before we got down there and we fish three days in a row.
[SPEAKER_00]: And in one of the days when we went offshore and did some slow pitch
[SPEAKER_00]: And we had Phil Diaz and Jerry Gavira and Terran Jones, like, you know, it kind of a mixed team from, and it's a great team, they've got up there in Woodland, but they were showing me those rods and I fished down there all the time and I'm not particularly hard on equipment, but, you know, you're asking a lot of equipment when it's a seven or seven and a half, but, you know,
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, you know, Rod and one fish may be you may catch 20 inch fish after 20 inch fish and the next fish may be a 50 inch fish right or the next is 50 pound drum the next fish may be you just don't know in that and that's part of what makes it so exciting, but that place in particular like
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, you know, we've got Kobe and sure you kids triple tails in the marsh like what are you doing here.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like so confusing, but they showed them to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I said absolutely beautiful incredible right.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to break them.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're probably going to break every one of them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I thought that I was just like I'm not just not sure there's enough material and whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they were kind of like, okay, okay, and dude, we didn't break a single one of them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, I was blown away such good, such good real is is good.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I start, you know, kind of like almost like a reissue of the old green water, which just still has tons of those.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they will too fast.
[SPEAKER_01]: The field is, it's two different categories there when it comes to field.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's not a, not a total in our X plus bank breaker.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's a really good rod at a, at a good price point.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I'm always scared when I,
[SPEAKER_01]: Get a new rod and a throw that thing out there for the first time like a man.
[SPEAKER_01]: I hope it's like, yeah, it feels good right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, contact with the bait and yeah, man.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's it's a good stick.
[SPEAKER_00]: With a 46 incher now we're going to see what's really going on.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, man.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, as Gary Loomiss used to say, it needs to do the job is decided to do and it needs to return to the dock in the same number of pieces that left it right.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, got to do it with the technology.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, who knows?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like if we went back like,
[SPEAKER_01]: 20 years.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we're used to feeling like everything.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's something like the intensity of the bite like you remember being a kid.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're like, I think that's a fish.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I think about this all the time when we're like on a windy day and we're off some point in Venice or something and we're throwing 70 yards and able to set the hook on a plastic or a shrimp on a jighead.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like with mono, we wouldn't even know we were bit and we wouldn't have been able to throw this far.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: No way.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's crazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Crazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was recently on the White River in Arkansas and I was doing some Miraboo jig fishing, which I do on the BFS now, but it's same deal.
[SPEAKER_00]: I grew up fishing that way and we were throwing on jigs, 8th and 16th jigs on 2 and 4 pound mono.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I had been off the mono a while.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do that mono, 4 pound mono felt like a rubber band.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I was
[SPEAKER_00]: like yeah stretch you like you get used to five percent stretch and then when you get back to 30 percent stretch it's like what is going on but I hadn't had that stuff in my hands at a minute well it's it hasn't changed I mean it's got a spirit I still use it all the time as a leader for a rattle method a topwater on or something like that yeah like it's it's still got its place but so
[SPEAKER_00]: When you're talking about the doc vision, you're still running your 8 to 10 pound brighter.
[SPEAKER_00]: You go with the heavier leader or you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Man, I'm still fishing that 10 pound.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, no.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: First of all, you're down there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, you know, a side of an oyster shell or a barnacle.
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't throw any from me made a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we've been in 20 at that point, you know, but yeah, sometimes, you know, I don't think of a redfish as a ton like a snuck.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's like fish that is like
[SPEAKER_01]: means to take you back up right there right a lot of times redfish I think are a little bit more forgiving
[SPEAKER_01]: than a other fish when it comes to pulling and getting them on the street out.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, a structure and a fish that's not like for like a giant long screaming run.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of times, man, it's it's pretty remarkable what 10 pound break can do and how much pulling you can do, especially with that shorter 7 foot rod.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, and not, you get, you got a good bend in the rod,
[SPEAKER_01]: line unless he touches something down there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, right.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it can happen.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: That probably happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you said, with 20 pound, too, and it dependent how sharp these oyster shells are, they're going to make a difference.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, reverse thrusters.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hold on out of there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Seriously, exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you, now, do you run any conventional or bait casting tackle, too?
[SPEAKER_00]: Or is that just not your personal preference?
[SPEAKER_00]: I have that.
[SPEAKER_01]: OK, you know, for my Texas people.
[SPEAKER_00]: OK. And for my baths, guys, do they insist?
[SPEAKER_00]: Do they insist are getting out of the hell's bay and waiting, too?
[SPEAKER_00]: Or do you keep them in the mess?
[SPEAKER_01]: We'd make them stay out of the mud, you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: But there's nothing more, you know, and you said that's usually, like, far to that culture, like, that's what those guys are used to, that's what they want to face.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then, you know, with the bass these days and the, and the college guys, like some guys have had from the Climpson bass team, I mean, they are absolutely remarkable to fish with.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then, but they're so well versed in spending and casting.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: They, they can really kind of do it all, but, you know, usually if I've got those guys around and we're fishing some plugs and,
[SPEAKER_01]: stuff like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I've learned a remarkable amount from from pro bass guys that's been able to relate over as far as like, you know, certain lures performing well with mono, certain ones performing well with four carbons.
[SPEAKER_01]: Certain ones love the braid tied right to the end of that thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, which is great.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, depending upon
[SPEAKER_01]: what you're doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, their techniques, I feel like our show much more intricate.
[SPEAKER_00]: When any fish could be a $200,000 fish, you know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you better be paying attention to the details.
[SPEAKER_00]: My marketing guy is actually a young guy named Jack Baron, and he fished at University of Montevallo.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is what's so amazing to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they've won five of the last six national championships and
[SPEAKER_00]: And he won like, I don't know, three or four netties while he was there is huge swim bait and glide bait guy, but like these guys, like they fish so many tournaments in high school, then they fish these tournaments, which are tough tournaments all through college and by the time they get out there on their pro circuit, they've got so much experience.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I think
[SPEAKER_00]: I have these conversations with people all the time where they're super dismissive of these young anglers because they're like, oh, it's all forward facing sonar.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the cheater box.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, have you been in the boat with one of these cats because they are dialed, dude, and they take their gear seriously.
[SPEAKER_00]: They are good at knots.
[SPEAKER_00]: They just stuff subtle things like controlling the depth of your crate, or jerk baits running based on the pound test, mono, or floro.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like they are dialed
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's, oh, yeah, I love this guys because I always learned something new that I hadn't thought about with them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right now what I'm learning is I'm your guy from Florida.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm Eastern Father Gill, who's another guy at Fish University, Montafelo and as a rookie on the Elite Series won the classic this last year.
[SPEAKER_00]: Not, so that's kind of a big deal, but he, um, he's running braid to ploro and he's running leaders like this long, like two, three feet long, never using anything longer than that.
[SPEAKER_00]: No matter what, I'm using like, and I'm like, well, am I just a complete, am I just burn in floro for no reason?
[SPEAKER_00]: Cause I'm using running a rod length to a rod length at a half.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so yeah, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's funny.
[SPEAKER_00]: We like you said you learned a certain way and you're like, well, this ain't broke.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not going to fix it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to keep running it, but I sure it is interesting to be around those guys because they have figured some stuff out and not all that makes it on the television on ESPN during tournament coverage, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like there's what they show you and then there's also what they're out there in the boat doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't regret them like if it ain't cheating, if you're not trying as hard as you can, short of cheating, you're not trying very hard.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you're allowed to keep a few secrets, but
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: So shift into shift into like the the more near shore and offshore stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: Does that change the way you think about reals and how you match a rod in the real or same fundamental principles.
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of the same fundamental principles, you know, we start thinking about a little bit more about line capacity, you know, here in shore fishing line capacity is really not a huge concern with most of our smaller interest species.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we do have good tarp and fishing here.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have things where you do need to rely on, you know, some of those things, but for the most part, you know, once I get out there, I am thinking a little bit about line capacity.
[SPEAKER_01]: Our near shore fishery is amazing.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have so much like state funded CCA sites, Restructure and Reef structure.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it is extensive and it's good and then we have a lot of other stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: So generally that waters kind of then that 20 to 90.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's from about three to, you know, once you start getting around 90, you're getting out to like 20 miles.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's a good swath of mileage in there, but, you know,
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I guess you do, you know, start moving into that 5,000, 6,000, 10,000 and, you know, stuff like that, so we don't, you've got Kobe, we know you've got sheep said, you got snapper, what else, what else you are normally chasing in that kind of near shore range.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, you know, we've got, uh, a lot of good, like just general bottom fishing, uh, you know, you get some sea bass, um, and, uh, you know, sheep's head fishing is incredible, um, for us that there's near shore, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: But near shore, really.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: So all of our, how are you fishing for them?
[SPEAKER_00]: Same way are you still using like, say, why drop?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I just fishing that hard structure.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you're just dropping down, um,
[SPEAKER_01]: But like all our fish when it gets real cold here, which it has gotten cold and that water temperatures down a lot of our big adult mature fish are all out there right now.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm still catching some nice ones in shore, but the majority of the fish are there and then they'll start to pre-spawn and spawn in like March and April and it's just silly.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: The fish isn't really good, you know, you kind of get out there and some April days where you're
[SPEAKER_01]: hoping, you know, to bump into a Kobe or something and you get out there, water's probably still a little bit too cold, not a lot moving yet.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the sheep said the fish and it's just like lights out for the regular.
[SPEAKER_00]: Good.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm always hoping to bump into a Kobe.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm always looking for the man in the Brown sea.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, come up.
[SPEAKER_01]: Bay of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm 100% back at the boat.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, anytime anytime, any time someone's kid goes, oh, shark, I'm like, where?
[SPEAKER_00]: What was it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Let me, are you sure?
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a lot of the phobias the need out there a ton of Spanish macro and you know as in the hotter it gets
[SPEAKER_01]: the more like later in the summer the more we get like some sale fish in there yeah and we get you know some some dolphin small group string and clothes you know it's kind of a haj podge more later in the year you know that's awesome haj podge are you ever coming out the longer on and doing some fly stuff yeah yeah it's amazing yeah man lots of lots of
[SPEAKER_01]: over the rail on the fly rod, you know, I was like a great fly rod.
[SPEAKER_00]: So tell me, tell me about this because they're a great anything fish, they're great.
[SPEAKER_00]: Eat and fish, they're a great biting fish, they're like, I love them.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we're in this thing where we have found these spots.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm obsessed with trying to catch some bottom species on a fly rod.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not willing to throw an express sink into blind and count to a hundred.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: But generally what's happening is we're like pulling up on these spots.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we start catching snapper.
[SPEAKER_00]: triggers whatever it is on like slow pitch gear or whatever and the fish will move up in the cup, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Especially and I don't we think we're brewing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we speculate.
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is this all the time?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that because the hook's fish are spit and stuff up on the way up?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that because I don't I don't I don't know why it is, but it is so common that we'll get on a spot catch a few and then we'll catch the biggest snapper and triggers we catch on a spot right under the boat, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it happens so often it's like predictable and so what I what the way I'm thinking about it is like maybe get them up like that And then start throwing something the sinking line and how how are you targeting them with fly?
[SPEAKER_00]: Are you waiting till you're seeing them by the boat and then pulling out the fly wrong?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yeah, the kebias stuff is generally a hundred percent site fish and you know a lot of times you pull in there If the conditions are right, they're kind of art and they can already be up, you know their fish that loves the
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm on the top and orient to anything floating that you can find.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then they love big ass turtles.
[SPEAKER_01]: They love, you know, buoys.
[SPEAKER_01]: They love big sharks.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, in a lot of times when the when the stuff is really going in your and your catch in and those big shark start showing up well usually the cubby or showing up to and a lot of times or ultra successful was getting the fish and off of those sharks that are swimming high they're not really bothered they're not feeding in okay yeah they're they tend to kind of like I think a lot of those smaller cubby is like those 10 12.
[SPEAKER_01]: pounders that are easy meal.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Things that not many of those make it to the boat.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's always a bad feeling.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, you know, if you've got a big tiger shark with four, five, 30 to 50 pound fish women behind it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you hook that 50 pounder.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think that shark is eating that fish.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I hope not.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'll tell you, I'm a lot more comfortable.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because throwing a fly at them than these guys dropping over the side and spear fishing them off
[SPEAKER_00]: apropos of nothing and just out of curiosity like how are the sharks like here in Alabama and where I fish in Louisiana I'm 53 I've been doing this hard course since I was six or seven years old I've never seen so many sharks that seem right now numbers are absolutely through the roof and as a result, you know,
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we all suffer in the same problems in the Charleston area as it's same kind of deal these days.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like the, you know, the inshore stuff, the dolphin is the bad guy, man.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I don't run into a whole lot of short problems with red fish and trout and stuff like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: A little bit maybe in September.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a very few and far between as far as instances go.
[SPEAKER_01]: We were like, oh,
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, you know, it does happen in the jetties, uh, that's not a place that fish and time, but where it is getting bad is, you know, when we're doing a lot of the jigging, um, out in that, you know, 150 to like, 2 pitty.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you can tell almost textbook like what you've hooked.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, if you're, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: 20 to 30 feet off the bottom and you get hammered it's an amberjack right and if you don't crank you you got a few seconds to to pull it off but man it don't it don't take long now it doesn't it's it's bad it's so we we've been trying to cast every year out of Port Canaveral have seen the same down there sir.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't I don't know what the answer is like obviously
[SPEAKER_00]: your apex predators are totally necessary and they serve an important role in their part of the food chain but man they're just uh the pendulum has swung too far back this way we have I mean it's it's so many and I I really don't know what the responsible thing to do is as a boat captain and someone who's taking people fish and like
[SPEAKER_00]: It's okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you get on a spot, you get some fish up and then you start getting shark to kill you leave it.
[SPEAKER_00]: But when you pull right up on them and it's it and you're not getting a thing up, it's like I don't want to fish here anymore.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not I don't want to lose out the jig and tackle and have to retie a bunch of knots and leaders and break rods.
[SPEAKER_00]: But also I don't want to sacrifice the fish, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're doing a good reason, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, uh, it's really friendly.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you're feeding the sharks and they've learned.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I got a buddy down here in Orange Beach who sold his charter boat and got a new boat because he was so convinced that the dolphins recognized his screw signature and we're following him out every day, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: He's just wasn't out at 14 knots and they just picking up.
[SPEAKER_00]: Soon as he leaves, you know, the past and stay with him the whole time, go to with him to every
[SPEAKER_00]: But you know, I suspect they're going to learn what your new boat sounds like to, but you know, I can't I can't blame me for trying.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, I will.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do think that they are so intelligent that
[SPEAKER_01]: You, you, um, they know some places where you are.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then they know what you're doing and they know where to be where the fish are going to be based on where you are.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, you know, if you're flushing them out of a pocket or whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that I really think the fish behaviors changing a little bit like a lot of these places that like used to be like ultra effective like on the side of the river.
[SPEAKER_01]: Where it's there's a little bit of a flat there but not like a tremendous flat you know the place where like the fish can hang right but the deep water is close man and and and those dolphins and I'm there like when things start setting up in November like for.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, the birds are on the fish and the fish are pushing the shrimp and fishing is just crazy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Good.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can set your watch to it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's good every day.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're on these banks or there is a lot of red fish.
[SPEAKER_01]: And those dolphins are out there too.
[SPEAKER_01]: And those fish are the red fish are in reckless abandonment.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're going to bite your lure.
[SPEAKER_01]: They can get chased by the dolphin and swim back up the bank and they'll bite your lure again and Yeah, you know, you're kind of in that mode, but those dolphins are getting those fish off those spots.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I know they're not eating all those fish.
[SPEAKER_01]: So those fish are like screw this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know a couple slow days where they're off the bite a little bit.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're like we're out of here.
[SPEAKER_01]: And a lot of those places for us, I think that used to hold
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, some fish on those deeper edges where you did have a little they had a little refuge but not quite enough, those those fish are starting to either get real buggy or they're not there.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're not there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the there's there for some reason, um, this year is an unusually large amount of fish and some dogs and just kind of like a little bit different, you know, but I think yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Nothing is slowing those dolphins down now and I tell you it's so funny if I had a dollar for every time we're on a spot and we're catching fish and it's kind of lit up and I'm we're marking them up off the bottom, you know, and then all of a sudden they just go and you're like, oh somebody just showed up and then yeah and then the dolphin the purpose comes up and goes
[SPEAKER_00]: you're like, there it is, there's the thing I'm crazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm having a, I've been telling one of my buddies who really closely follows as a journalist all the bass fishing towards a professional bass fishing stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: He has a great thing called the Bass Blasters, name's Jay Khumor.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I've been telling him, like, we're starting to see, turn your son
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't if you know, yeah, if you know the spot pull up on it and drop on it without turning it on and this is what's weird to me That seems to be helping in places where sharks and porpoises have become more Prevalent and where we feel like we're seeing that reaction when they show up at the fish active front So I don't know if they're listening if they know that sonar means we've stopped and we're paying in and now You know, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean we're running the sonar where we're running, but we
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not giving numbers or anything else, but I'll tell you here near shore at orange beach.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've had a couple of instances now where I'm starting to think it's the sonar that's drawn on maybe.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, they're very aware.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're very intelligent, but maybe they think we're a pleasure boat or something.
[SPEAKER_00]: If in not fishing, if we're not running the sonar and the fish act different.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know for what it's been the fish that blind.
[SPEAKER_01]: I noticed that here if I like.
[SPEAKER_01]: If I'm doing something like side scan or right exactly looking for something and I forget and I'll leave it on and I pull up in some tight little spot I'm like damn they ain't bite.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like huh, I'll left it on.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know So they're yeah, they're they're they're clever.
[SPEAKER_00]: They hear that every disc of that poppin.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah So one of the things I wanted to ask you and sorry we're kind of rolling all over the place, but yeah, you'd be in down for the adventure
[SPEAKER_00]: one of the things so i'm kind of big of the by once cry once school right and so generally quality costs and and you get what you pay for and so, but it sounds like you're being you're up selling right like all the hell you're in the tackle business you're just trying to get a spin a lot of money now.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'd rather buy one really nice real and have it last, you know, 10 years.
[SPEAKER_00]: If I take good care of it, then replace them every two years because they're burning out or going.
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, that's not an indictment.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know we were talking about your Shimano guy.
[SPEAKER_00]: I use a lot of Shimano use a lot of dye.
[SPEAKER_00]: I will use a lot of bait use a lot of everything.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm brand agnostic.
[SPEAKER_00]: I use whatever works.
[SPEAKER_00]: How would you counsel people when they're thinking about because that's part of matching the ride to a real two If I go in the Shimano catalog and I want to spend in real.
[SPEAKER_00]: They've got them from 5999 to 1599 like Generally, how do you counsel like if clients come have a great trip with you?
[SPEAKER_00]: They're like, hey, I think and I want to do some more of this like how do you help people or what advice do you give people as someone who's Listen to me people
[SPEAKER_00]: Fishing full time for multiple decades if you can break it down.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's broken it down.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's seen it break.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's seen it fail.
[SPEAKER_00]: Guides have this valuable perspective, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So how do you think about price point and reels and and like what advice would you give to people that are trying to figure out like how much should I be spending?
[SPEAKER_00]: Which of these price tiers should I be targeting or any advice you can give people on how to think about that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know, you got a pretty wide skip of people, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So you got like somebody who's like just getting into it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like they don't even know if they're going to like it yet.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's one kind of person.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then that the kind of person that I think is a candidate for where you start, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: That's because that's what that stuff available there for.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't spend a ton of money.
[SPEAKER_01]: I totally love it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm head over heels.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now let's get something that's awesome.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or, you know, if you've been fishing for a while and you've been throwing, I mean, as tackle guys these days, you know, a real that cost 140 bucks.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know, maybe it's time, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you might appreciate a real that's 340 bucks.
[SPEAKER_00]: You might experience the difference.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: People are 100% blown away.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I fish 100% all my clients fish was Stella's.
[SPEAKER_01]: are they fish with twin powers yeah and i think that that twin power i will put everything behind that real i have used that real 2500 3000 five thousand
[SPEAKER_00]: 10,000, 12,000, my beautiful new shiny twin power solar 14,000 XG's compliments of my friend.
[SPEAKER_01]: They've, they bring it, they bring it and the durability is there if I had to tell somebody if you wanted the best bang for your buck and the best real that you can buy is the twin power.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love Estella.
[SPEAKER_01]: But for that for that guy that's looking for that real.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I have a lot of the original XDs and those things have been tortured and they get, you know, the good thing now is like, because I'm a Shimano guy, know, Shimano provides this and they're probably other real manufacturers that provide this too.
[SPEAKER_01]: But man, send them in.
[SPEAKER_00]: Send it back to your career.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, get them service, get them clean,
[SPEAKER_01]: And take care of it and those reels will go and go and go and go and go.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, I'm I'm good at tearing stuff up.
[SPEAKER_01]: I take really good care of my stuff stuff, but.
[SPEAKER_01]: Man, we catch a lot of fish and we put stuff through the the basis.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think people might be surprised like you're obviously a serious guy and you've got to this great equipment like my guy in Louisiana the same way, but still well over half of their customers fish two days a year and it's the two days they come fish with them, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's not necessarily that you're breaking it or you're going to high-stick the rod or do something wrong with the real, but
[SPEAKER_00]: If you don't fish as much, it's very easy to do in the, in the excitement and the, you know, the heat of the moment like anything can go wrong will go wrong, right.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want durability, I want longevity, you know, I'm I'm trading, I'm trading durability and longevity every time ever something that's like lighter.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep, and maybe not quite there, you know, I'd rather fish, you know, if it was a tiny bit heavier, I'm fine with it being a tiny bit heavier, but I want durability and longevity because
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, when you're when you are like a weekend guy, you're not like me.
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't have just a garage full of all this stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you've got your handful of rods.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, you want something that is not going to fail, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you're not going to get a scratchy line roller.
[SPEAKER_01]: All those little things that just annoy the crap out of you.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm annoyed if I spend $150 on a real and a fish with it three times and a line rollers make a noise.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I want something that's like,
[SPEAKER_01]: bad ass.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, it's not too much to ask for.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
[SPEAKER_00]: And in really buying cheap and having to replace it all the time is a different, it's a false economy, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Whereas buy something with some durability and longevity that you can have service, all of a sudden a thousand dollar reel that lasts 10, 15, 20 years gets pretty reasonable, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: You're winning on so many different levels.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you're you're winning on.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you got something that's going to fish really, really great.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's got like the best technology.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you're, it's not going to fail you, you know.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if it does fail you, you know, then they fix it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so you're, you're, you're, you're winning on a lot in a lot of places.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's get to that point.
[SPEAKER_01]: Love the Twin Power, love the,
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, the, um, the stratics have been good, you know, I've had good light was stratics, but not nothing like that I've had.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, with a twin power, I've got a bunch of the originals sitting out there.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've kind of phasing in all the new ones.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I've been, uh, I didn't know, you know, you're always going to like get.
[SPEAKER_01]: the new stuff isn't as good as what they made at first, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: That fear, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, they're recreating it, they're going to screw it up, but I'm here to tell you that the new ones are even as impressive as the originals, you know, and a little bit more.
[SPEAKER_00]: the Shimano engineers tend to think about like I don't care if we go back to the original cronarks that first came across or I get something modern that just got like the degree to which they deliberately keep like all the school bearings are three by four by ten all that you know kind of keep universal parts and diameters and pieces so they they also make them very easy to take care of over time so oh yeah
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not a thing where you're going to be like, oh, I spent all this money on my twin power and my Stella.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then as of next year, I can't get it service anymore.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can't take care of them.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can't get in service.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're thinking about this stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: They know who their customers are and they do a good job with making that.
[SPEAKER_00]: A pretty simple, all things considered.
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, don't go crack in your reels.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you don't know what you're doing, you haven't ever seen this in real.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not recommending that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Send it to them, let them do it.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it is also nice that they have a really long support horizon for their products, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: If very unlikely, you're going to be done with the real because they can't service that or fix it anymore.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's important, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I get to fish with that crew a little bit, you know, from time to time, the service side and the customer service side, I take them.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, a lot of them have been there for a really long time.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's impressive.
[SPEAKER_01]: They really care about what they're doing and they do a great job in there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, that's one thing that
[SPEAKER_01]: That not a lot of people know, I think that you can send it back in there and have them take care of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, a lot of we've got some good mom and pops around here where, you know, that you've got some good rod and real repair people there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, but, uh, sitting in the men is, um, having that luxury is pretty nice.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is very nice.
[SPEAKER_00]: Everything.
[SPEAKER_00]: And, and again, the impact of that on the life of a real if you'll do that, like you're saying every year, of course, you're fishing 240 plus days a year, but even for a pretty serious weekend angle, if you'll just send it every couple of years, um,
[SPEAKER_00]: It makes a pretty big difference in how well it holds up and how well it holds up and how well yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you risk of defending the manufacturer, if you read the owner's manual, it suggests that you have it serviced on that kind of interval, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So you're kind of full of directions.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I don't expect my duck shotgun to run forever, you know, without cleaning it and break, you know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_00]: So I would, but we send a thing differently about reals.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're just, oh, yeah, I'll just reel it forever and it's going to be fine now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Actually, it would benefit from a little
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I think technology now to like the way that these reals are being manufactured from the cold forage type gearing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: To the expert tech and certain things that are corrosion, defensive, tiny percent stuff that's in play.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that the man that they're they're not like they were.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're definitely getting better.
[SPEAKER_01]: They are getting better.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_00]: They are getting better.
[SPEAKER_00]: No doubt.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, man, what this has has been such a fascinating conversation.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know you're a super busy guy and you have tons of stuff going on, but I really appreciate you taking the time to sit down and chat with us.
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, I can't say enough about Charleston is such a cool area.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a place called,
[SPEAKER_00]: uh, amen street Oyster bar downtown.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's one of the big seafood places I've ever been.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love that place.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know I think I think the harmony grill eventually shut down.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is there any more gone for a little while?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it breaks my heart, but Charleston is such a cool town and it is an awesome fishery.
[SPEAKER_00]: It really is a very cool fishery.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can stop by and snap.
[SPEAKER_00]: Shimano North America fishing is based in Charleston.
[SPEAKER_00]: you can go visit them and see kind of the showroom walk around a little bit and I can't I could not possibly over-recommend my guest, Captain John Erwin.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's a nice guy, knowledgeable guy and he's being all shy and humble but he's on him y'all.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's going to catch him fit.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm telling you, you can go with confidence.
[SPEAKER_00]: So tomorrow we'll be a conventional trip you said.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes, regular old guy from Michigan, SDM.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, four, five times a year.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's awesome.
[SPEAKER_01]: He last week, it's surprisingly he's from Michigan, but last week he's like, man, it's too cold, man.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not getting above 40, five degrees.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my god.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[SPEAKER_01]: I got some top.
[SPEAKER_01]: next week.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, we're it's going to be 60 something tomorrow and y'all have as we sit here today recording.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know when this will air, but y'all got a big front at least coming for part of the North and part of the Carolinas like come on Saturday.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that that doesn't look great.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there's been 20 inches in Winston Salem where my son is.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my goodness.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, my sister's a
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, yeah, so I hope you guys get through that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, and maybe it'll move some fish around in a good way for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, my poor little daughter says play golf and that stuff on.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, we won't play if it's like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, first of all, she should be fish and not golfing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Come on.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm going to waste of your time out.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm there, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm gonna, the PGA is gonna put the season to assist on me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, no, do whatever you want.
[SPEAKER_00]: God bless America, but I'm, I'm golfed once.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm fully recovered.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been golfed.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been golfed free for going on 35 years now and it's been good for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I got, she does love to fish and I've got that little boy that can't get enough.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, man, that's awesome.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, awesome.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, John, thank you so much for your time.
[SPEAKER_00]: I appreciate.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know you're like I said.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know you're busy.
[SPEAKER_00]: I appreciate you being.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, great.
[SPEAKER_00]: You guys fly right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Flyrightcharders.com.
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't be afraid.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're a fly guy, he's a serious fly guy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't be afraid if you're a conventional person.
[SPEAKER_00]: I promise he does.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you heard it from his own lips.
[SPEAKER_00]: He does as much conventional as he does fly.
[SPEAKER_00]: Really unique.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I just, I people don't think about this, but sometimes people really specialize in one thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so if you were just an inch or fly guy,
[SPEAKER_00]: The conditions have to be right for that to be right, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, you know, if you're looking at Charlie Charleston get on John's calendar early and then he can he can pivot and put you on whatever's going to work best at the time that you're there, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's really that versatility is really, really valuable because it can be the difference between sorry if we're only going to be able to go do this.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're just not doing that today, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Where versus hey, okay, we can't do the shallow water site fishing fly thing, but we can pivot to this or plan B or plan C, it's always a good thing to have around.
[SPEAKER_00]: So.
[SPEAKER_00]: Man, I appreciate your time and we appreciate everybody tuning in.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening and please remember to like, subscribe, download wherever you get your podcast content.
[SPEAKER_00]: We'll see you next time here on Mastering Rod Builder.