[SPEAKER_02]: Today, on the Relationship Renovation podcast, we talk to Dan Purcell about eyes open sex.
[SPEAKER_02]: We dive into what helps couples reignite passion, communicate openly about sex, and build a stronger sense of intimacy, emotionally, physically, and sexually.
[SPEAKER_03]: Hello all and welcome to the Relationship Innovation Podcast.
[SPEAKER_03]: I am Tara Kerwin.
[SPEAKER_02]: And my name is Eja Kerwin and today we are super excited to welcome Dan Persell.
[SPEAKER_02]: He is an intimacy educator.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's the founder of Get Your Marriage on.
[SPEAKER_02]: which is also a popular podcast, Dan's known for helping couples strengthen emotional and sexual connection through playful tools, practical skills, and honest conversations about desire and long-term relationships.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, please.
[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome, Dan.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, happy to be here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we had a great sort of intro conversation before this.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think we're all primed and ready to talk about
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, loves to hear about because as we all know, it's not the easiest thing to be successful at in the long term.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think the topic that we're going to talk about today is something we've actually never had on our podcast and we have like almost 300 episodes out.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's a good one.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a vulnerable one, but it's really I'm excited that you brought up that topic down.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, how are you, Dan?
[SPEAKER_02]: A good.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm happy to be here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, first just, I mean, give us a little background on yourself and
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, how you began helping couples, I mean, what your specialty is, just give us a quick download of who you are.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, sounds good.
[SPEAKER_01]: To keep it short and brief, I and probably the last person on the planet, I thought I would be here on this episode with you today.
[SPEAKER_01]: I come from a very good background.
[SPEAKER_01]: Parents are great.
[SPEAKER_01]: Family is great.
[SPEAKER_01]: I married well, but when it came to Saxon intimacy, it just wasn't something talked about a lot in our homes.
[SPEAKER_01]: and I annoyingly inherited a lot of anxiety about sex into our marriage.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a fast forward 13 years when they had a conversation with their friend and he opened up to me about his sex life with his wife.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was, so I guess the best emotion to describe it is morbid curiosity.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, oh, gross, wait, tell me more, and my friend wasn't bragging, but he was telling me that once he and his wife really figured out sexual intimacy in their marriage, like their bond became closer, their communicating better, their raising their kids together better, he's making more money at this job, like health is better, like everything in life has improved because their sexual relationship got better.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I really didn't know what to think, because that was so against my beliefs.
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought sex is okay, but you're not supposed to love it or like it, because that's like Las Vegas Billboard type stuff like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't want to cross the line and go somewhere.
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't want to get my friend and his wife very adventurous.
[SPEAKER_01]: They buy the book, so this is in the podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: They really invest in the buy toys and stuff like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I really struggled with that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I worked through it, and long story short, it made such a profound impact on my own marriage.
[SPEAKER_01]: And within a few months, our own marriage, I thought was a good marriage, just went to a whole another level of greatness, and had such a profound change.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's led to a career change, and now this is what I get to do full-time, and helping couples.
[SPEAKER_01]: Specifically, I work with Christian couples and prove Saxon intimacy in their marriage.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is amazing that it came directly from the success it brought into your marriage because we know like the best work can be done when you've gone through it yourself and it was so impactful that you know want to help others hopefully get that same impact too.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I love this story.
[SPEAKER_03]: I can't believe you changed your entire profession, but that morbid curiosity, I mean, that is just huge and so we can't wait to pick your brain today.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just listen to a podcast with a day talking about all of these studies around couples that have frequent good sex, how lower heart disease, they tend to live six to eight years longer.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, it's not something that I think people were thinking about, you know, 10, 20 years ago, that actually there's like seriously positive impact to having a healthy sexual
[SPEAKER_03]: I want to ask one question because I know like in our own practice, we have dealt with like a lot of maybe religious shame and sexual.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like what made you choose to like focus with Christian couples and what did you notice about that population?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'm a Christian myself and for me personally, the more I dug into my actual theology, this is just my testimony if you will.
[SPEAKER_01]: is our theology is a very sex-positive theology.
[SPEAKER_01]: But our culture, a Christian culture, isn't necessarily a sex-positive culture.
[SPEAKER_01]: So just because the culture is one way, doesn't mean the theology is that way, too.
[SPEAKER_01]: But that took me a long time to separate that in my mind.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because culture is important.
[SPEAKER_01]: But the culture in and of itself doesn't mean that's the theology as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: But another view for me that's helped me recently is more of a developmental view as we grow and progress psychologically and develop.
[SPEAKER_01]: There are certain principles and things that make sense at a lower level of development, but now at a higher level of development, you can handle more complexity.
[SPEAKER_01]: You've used things a little bit differently than, I can give you lots of examples of that, but and I think good religion helps people across all areas of the entire lifespan of development.
[SPEAKER_01]: But when you're in a culture that tends to reinforce a lower level of developmental thinking,
[SPEAKER_01]: It takes a different mindset to push through to a different level of development and still view things from the same lens.
[SPEAKER_01]: They can't view it from the same lens that you used to add a lower level of development.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's part of our spiritual development, too.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, I love that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think like that's an offshoot of that that we sort of talk about with couples at the beginning of our intimacy series is that sex is like the thing that we pretty much all do.
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, or want to in committed relationships, but yet we have got the least amount of information understanding, comfort and talking about of anything that most of us were brought up
[SPEAKER_02]: being told on some level, don't do it.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's dangerous, especially if you're like our age when in the 80s when AIDS was really like prominent, you know, don't do it.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's dangerous.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's bad.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you are doing it, you know, you're you're you're breaking.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, you're, you're sinning, but once you're married, it's beautiful and wonderful and theoretically you should just, you know, be have a great sex life, but like no, no, no, no, not what's so ever.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, there's no higher level thinking mirror.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, no, no.
[SPEAKER_03]: What do I do?
[SPEAKER_03]: OK, so when you kind of go to that higher level thinking or when you're coaching your couples to go to that higher level of thinking, like, what do you notice shifts?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, what do you see as like the big shift that happens?
[SPEAKER_01]: Great question.
[SPEAKER_01]: So again, I don't believe in pathologizing people.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I do think for a lot of couples that I work with, the struggles that they have sexually, they came by them honestly.
[SPEAKER_01]: But the problem is they're trying to fix their current problems using the current model.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Einstein said at this way, you can't solve a problem at the same level of thinking you used to create the problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: You have to elevate your thinking, elevate your intelligence to solve that problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: Buckminster Fuller said something else in a slaughter is quote, but it's like, instead of trying to fix a system at its current level, you have to create a new model that makes a old model obsolete.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's how you fix systems.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when I work with a couple, I look at them as a system,
[SPEAKER_01]: What is the current quote unquote solution that's keeping the problem in place over and over and over again?
[SPEAKER_01]: We have to like apply a different model that they aren't thinking about that helps them solve the problem on their own.
[SPEAKER_03]: Can I give you a good one that like a lot of our listeners reach out to like what do you do when sex becomes routine and like happens at night and like usually if it's a heterosexual couple like the females exhausted and it's like I just had a couple yesterday she's like it's by the time it's 11 30 kids are down.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's like, let's go.
[SPEAKER_03]: She's like, there's no way, but there's right because they have a two or now there's no new novelty or anything.
[SPEAKER_03]: So like, how would you help a couple?
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm sure I have you had that scenario.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Of course.
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_03]: Give us a little example of like what might you say to help that couple?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, if you Google online the advice, it would be like,
[SPEAKER_01]: Negotiate, compromise, find somewhere, schedule it, schedule the sex.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I think those all could help, but if you're still at the current level, it's still at that system that you're operating within.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: You might see a little bit of success for a short term, but it's not gonna make a big impact.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, it that scenario, I would, it would depend on the couple and a lot more.
[SPEAKER_01]: But sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: let's just take my own experience.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have six children.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know what it's like to be like in the mood when my wife is exhausted after a long day.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, first thing is...
[SPEAKER_01]: What do I do that interferes with my wife's ability to say yes?
[SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes it's my over-earness gets in the way of a person, yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's hard.
[SPEAKER_01]: Second is viewing sexes like on-off switch, so we either did it or we didn't.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Rather than viewing it more like a dimmer switch, where there's all different levels of sexual intimacy in it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I love that.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a thing to is learning how to see the whole person as a whole person.
[SPEAKER_01]: rather than what they do for you and how they reinforce you.
[SPEAKER_01]: And what I mean by that is, like I remember one time I wanted to have sex my wife didn't, because it was tired.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was one of my better moments.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I said, Emily, what sounds pleasurable for you tonight?
[SPEAKER_01]: Instead of can we have sex?
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah, that's good.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was a good question,
[SPEAKER_01]: give her a pleasure.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wanted her to help her relax.
[SPEAKER_01]: My heart was really invested in her and if sex happened, I would be thrilled.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I could also be okay enough.
[SPEAKER_01]: that if it didn't happen, it's still okay because I really cared about her.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I guess you could fill that caring energy like that I cared about her, not about the sex that she provides.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she's like, you know what?
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not open for sex, but I could probably cuddle naked for a little bit.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we cuddle naked.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then desire showed up.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love to bring great.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's like
[SPEAKER_01]: know the response of desire pattern alive in our relationship at that moment.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's not because that was like the goal, the goal was can we invest together?
[SPEAKER_01]: And it had to have the ending in this scenario, but even if it didn't end that way, it would still be a success because I was solid in my approach.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think you nail something there and it's something I relate to and it's actually like comes out of not really a conversation that terror and I had last night about sex,
[SPEAKER_02]: being a tune to one another and I think that oftentimes Tara feels that it's just that I want to meet my need, not that I want to connect and it seems very selfish.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that that is what a lot of couples, especially in that sort of higher, lower,
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, desire, dynamic is that the other person doesn't think you want to connect with them or you want to love them or you want to have this shared, loving experience.
[SPEAKER_02]: They just think you want something from them and that's not one.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not sexy and it's also like,
[SPEAKER_02]: Everybody wants something from her.
[SPEAKER_02]: The dogs wanted to feed them.
[SPEAKER_02]: The kids want everything.
[SPEAKER_02]: Everything from her.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I want, you know, employees want.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I just become another person that just wants something.
[SPEAKER_02]: Never mind if you go even deeper into like,
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, trauma and and everything else, it's just like it's a it's a really bad dynamic that we've, we've still are still.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I would say, Dan, what you said, so in our intimacy series part four, we talk about
[SPEAKER_03]: Instead of seeing sex as an obligation, it's more of an energetic connection.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so when you're coming into the bedroom, instead of asking for sex, you're asking for connection.
[SPEAKER_03]: And like in that moment, it was like, hey Emily, what would feel pleasurable tonight?
[SPEAKER_03]: And I love that.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think that people often like mean that, but it comes out wrong.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so then it just reinforces that pattern of like sex as an obligation.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I have couples who like like, like, they'll have sex like on a Sunday.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I'm like, I've got to have a whole week where we have to do it again.
[SPEAKER_03]: So my anxiety's down and I'm like, oh, we're going to talk about that because we don't want.
[SPEAKER_03]: We don't want our couples to view sex as this chore.
[SPEAKER_03]: This obligation is a chance for connecting in the most deeply vulnerable.
[SPEAKER_03]: way, which is actually the topic that we haven't even got to today as I open to.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's you did a great job there of like, I'm so excited to transition into being a little more specific because I think people like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: The concept that you would be great to talk about is eyes open, sex, is eyes, eyes, eyes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, tell us, help us understand.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there have been times I've had sex where it was kind of like I just checked it off.
[SPEAKER_01]: We say we did it.
[SPEAKER_01]: We even had orgasms that we shared and felt great.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then there's other times we've had sex where it's very soulful.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't even be another word, but I like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am here, you are there, and the barrier between us is like diminishing, and I see you and you see me work together in this.
[SPEAKER_01]: And to contrast those experiences,
[SPEAKER_01]: orgasm may not happen in the second one but it's not it's not about orgasm exchange it's really about like being really present with each other and being in it so to me the concept of eyes open sex is this I think a lot of couples rude really struggle to have sex with their eyes open and I see that literally right like that means they're seeing me seeing my body
[SPEAKER_01]: Gravity is doing it's thing, satellite is doing it's thing like, can you just turn off the lights?
[SPEAKER_01]: Can we just do this?
[SPEAKER_01]: And we only do this one position because it shows my good side like there's that aspect of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think it's a little bit deeper in that I really want you to see me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I really want to see you.
[SPEAKER_01]: I really want to be with who you are.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to expose myself, not just my body, but my mind and my spirit, and be with this person.
[SPEAKER_01]: So sex, I believe, is inherently anxiety-inducing because you're naked and your bodies are pressed against each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: So your brains and your, you know, high alert, it just, just is.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the way we handle anxiety,
[SPEAKER_01]: differs depending on your level of development.
[SPEAKER_01]: So because it's an angst's activity, I think it's normal for couples to just want to get through the act.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is where you hear a couple of saying we have sex but there's not a lot of foreplay.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not because both don't want to do foreplay.
[SPEAKER_01]: One person in the marriage wants to do a lot of foreplay.
[SPEAKER_01]: But the others I know, let's just let's hurry on, let's skip to penetration and let's get it over it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It feels very exposing to be in the four-place setting because there's a little more heart exchange, a little more soul exchange, and that's an anxious place to be in because you're being seen.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So your ability to tolerate the anxiety of closeness is a direct relation to your ability to be close to someone in that sexual act.
[SPEAKER_03]: the ability to tolerate closeness with someone.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's, because that's probably one of the first things you might ask when you're clients, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, what is your ability to tolerate closeness?
[SPEAKER_03]: Because for a lot of us, we learn to just protect ourselves from the other person, especially, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: We do couples counseling.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's like, by the time to get to us, it's like, I don't even want to look at you.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Don't even sit near me.
[SPEAKER_03]: They're like sitting at the opposite ends of the couch.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I've got to guess then the first,
[SPEAKER_03]: get at an individual level, a comfort level, or tools to regulate anxiety for that closeness.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm guessing, I'm just guessing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's exactly it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And one is an eye gazing exercise.
[SPEAKER_01]: You talked about this a little bit before.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I want to hear that story if you're willing to share again.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, we actually did a podcast on this.
[SPEAKER_03]: I can't remember, it was years ago, but in 2022, we went to Dr. Stan Tekken's couples retreat and they call him the mad scientist of couples because he's just amazing.
[SPEAKER_03]: And he's done all this research.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we had to sit there for like 12 hours a day, there was 12 other couples.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we didn't have to look at him.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's like, don't look at me.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't want you to look at me.
[SPEAKER_03]: You're not here for me, even though we thought we were.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's like, you're gonna be looking at each other.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I was like, what?
[SPEAKER_03]: for that long, for that many out minutes, like minutes for like hours.
[SPEAKER_03]: And remember our very first exercise and our very first like workshop setting.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was so riddled with anxiety, having to look super uncomfortable for you.
[SPEAKER_03]: Having to look into EJ's eyes and like see him.
[SPEAKER_03]: and hit like in our souls bearing each other.
[SPEAKER_03]: God, and I'm someone that's I've been doing couples counseling for 20 years and I feel like I was comfortable in my skin, but never, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: We were presented with this having to do eye contact, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I, right, when do we ever force eye contact with each other?
[SPEAKER_03]: We don't like we get our stuff done during the day, we talk, we do our couples therapy, we raise our kids, we
[SPEAKER_02]: But isn't it interesting, like, eye contact is like so important to you when we're in conflict.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like if I switch my eyes away from you at all, it like, you're a little bit crazy.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yet, in intimate moment of us wanting to try to connect, you're not comfortable with that.
[SPEAKER_03]: But that's when I, so Dan and I'm sure like this comes up free with your coaching clients, but like that's when I realized how much my, right, I'm a victim of childhood sexual abuse, how much that played into our intimate role.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm glad I got to learn that because it's really scary.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I would go into flight fighter just or dissociation or whatever to get through it, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: absolutely.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so it was really good that each and I can develop that safety through eye contact because he's probably the first person in my whole life I'm 49 that I've actually had eyes open during intimacy.
[SPEAKER_03]: I have couples look at each other in session and that's hard for them.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let alone in the bedroom, but like what are the things people report when you first start kind of giving them this exercise?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, some of them have a really hard time with it because it's uncomfortable and it's kind of interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: As a young adult, I lived in Japan and you'd ride the train subways buses and it's packed with people, your body to body and rush hour.
[SPEAKER_01]: but the moment you like make eye contact with the person next to you it gets instantly uncomfortable.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you can be body body with someone but I don't know is it the eyes or the window to the soul is Shakespeare said like there's something about bringing soul to soul in that.
[SPEAKER_01]: is hard.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, there are other exercises that I gazing as hard for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's other ones.
[SPEAKER_01]: These are more taken from the Tantric Tradition.
[SPEAKER_01]: But when is called Hugging?
[SPEAKER_01]: Hugging till relaxed, developed by Dr. David Snarch.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, Dr. Snarch, the passionate marriage.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, great.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was so fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: I read that book and we're on our way to a family reunion, and it's just observing how people hug.
[SPEAKER_01]: And just the immense amount of information that is being passed in a hug.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you see that one aunt that everyone, like kind of just a very huggy one, and people like, you know, like kind of protect their body as it comes close by.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you have the other one that's like just fist bumping like yeah, just kind of keeping their distance or yeah, it's just a very short like right and then there's the embrace like some of that I'm just so happy this is like the grandma the matriarch of the family and she's like just so happy you're here like there's so much information conveyed and so couples can hug.
[SPEAKER_01]: and just hug as a meta-actricized, as a microcosm of the dynamic of their relationship, because how you hug, and what goes on in the hug, what information is transferred in the hug, is very telling of how you to handle the intimacy of closeness in your relationship.
[SPEAKER_03]: like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think we've we've somebody else was talking about how like holding onto the hug and waiting to that moment for each of you that you finally relax.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I know that that if you just hug,
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a sort of like silent waiting to get away.
[SPEAKER_02]: Instead of waiting to finally come together, I know our hugs in the kitchen a lot of the time are like that where it's like...
[SPEAKER_02]: So in the morning when they get to school, it feels like it feels like not even a hug.
[SPEAKER_02]: The drive-by hug.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it feels like the drive-by hug where it's just like, it's cursory.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the moments where we actually spend the moment and actually wait,
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like 10 seconds, 12 seconds, and then all of a sudden, it's like, ah, and then it feels like home, and it feels safe, and it feels like truly connecting.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I mean, I think that's like the other thing is like, when we have that, whether it's a hug or a pack, or even the type of sex, where it is that rush, get through it, it starts to get really like unsatisfying.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you almost then start avoiding it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I would say like you start avoiding that hug because you're like, well, it's ultimately not going to be satisfying.
[SPEAKER_02]: Probably it's not going to feel like connection.
[SPEAKER_01]: It could actually create a pursue or distance relationship because absolutely one probably will avoid another will probably like wait.
[SPEAKER_01]: The hug wasn't enough.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not fulfilling.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I could see how it would be also really confusing and disruptive in like, okay, cannot, can I share a little bit, is it personal?
[SPEAKER_02]: Is this okay?
[SPEAKER_03]: I think so.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like where my sort of like frustration with the hug and not feeling really connected.
[SPEAKER_02]: and maybe Tara is feeling of the same thing in like sex and intimacy, where it's like in different areas, each person is slightly not satisfied with the experience.
[SPEAKER_02]: But they're linked too, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like the hug to the sex is important or the kind speech or or whatever.
[SPEAKER_02]: And like people start getting misaligned because there's these areas where one person
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, where it gets like really confusing in this overarking like arch of intimacy that we're not talking about in specific does that does that make sense makes perfect sense.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that takes such like intentionality and something like what you're talking about this eyes open, sex, or you talked about earlier, it's bigger than just sex, is like, how do we create this like eyes open, really seeing and being connected across the spectrum of our intimate connections?
[SPEAKER_03]: so that we can have that higher level.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we can have it all.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, oh, yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Don't we want it, I mean, I think that's part of it is like we wanted all, like I want to hug you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to have that other, more deeply into my side.
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to be able to talk to you in a way where you feel safe and loved, and it's and they're all intermingled together and they gum each other up.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, and what I hear Dan saying is, I don't want our daughter has been diagnosed with OCD, so she goes through exposure therapy.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it feels like that's kind of the tool intervention.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Give couples, it's like, okay, start with this hug if that feels okay or maybe start with like a non-sexual massage or and that you almost start to like get comfortable with different levels of exposing yourself vulnerably.
[SPEAKER_01]: What's because you learn how to self-regulate better?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if I'm in a hug and I feel my anxiety started to build, if I can learn how to just regulate myself better,
[SPEAKER_01]: without disconnecting, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: You have to stay in it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and how can you help a couple have a healthy sex life if you skip over the hug?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, if you skip over the eye contact, if you skip over the communication that's kind and loving and supportive and attuned,
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, you know what's interesting, Dan.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I'm just putting this together.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, we have, right, our couples go through this relationship renovation model.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like four to six months.
[SPEAKER_03]: And you see a ton of dropout at the intimacy series.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because like, we were like, we got to build emotional safety.
[SPEAKER_03]: We have to make sure we have healthy communications, skills, we're understanding all of this.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's like they learn all these things and then they get to the intimacy series piece of it.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's probably like three months in and I think like it gets to that point where like oh my gosh now We have to really like we've been able to do like the communication stuff cool
[SPEAKER_03]: and then it gets into like the really vulnerable, and it's like not a lot, but a third, it's like how do we help couples stay in that so that they can have that freaking deep intimacy that we all deserve in that freedom of expression and playfulness and desire and eroticism like you name it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's just like I think there's such a fear behind it.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I love that you're helping couples that have those types of fears be in it in a different way.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And like just talking to you, I can feel how safe you are for people because I feel very safe with you.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think that's really important too.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like you have your own experience through it, which I can relate now.
[SPEAKER_03]: And you're not preaching from the mountain to up like this is what it should be like.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that you're very supportive of the individual differences for the sake of the couple as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, right.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've one more thought on this, I think will help me that might help listeners too.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you said earlier in I agree 100% we want to have sexual experiences where we feel really connected with each other and that being said sex can be very connecting.
[SPEAKER_01]: So because we want to connect with our spouse, we should have sex.
[SPEAKER_01]: It makes a very, it's a very logical step, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's have sex so that we feel connected.
[SPEAKER_01]: the issue that I see couples have is they're having a lot of sex, but the connection is still not there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's because when you approach sex to extract connection out of the sex, it doesn't really work that way.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're putting the cart before the worse.
[SPEAKER_01]: Whereas if you learn how to connect first and then move in to
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, or let the sex organically flow from there while maintaining that connection, I think that's when sex is the most connecting.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think that's what's so hard about the whole, like, looping it into modern, married life.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like when we basically have just, like, parallel function throughout the day.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we just kind of like we were, you know, we had that drive by hug this morning and then we just kind of got everything that needed to get done done.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then suddenly it's 11 PM and it's the only time where you actually have the like physical space to have sex, but you haven't been connected all day and I think that's something to like Turn out to talk tons of hours.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's just like, I need to like we need to go out and we need to cultivate this space because it's it's too Disjunctured, you know, and just because I have more
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, basically testosterone flowing through my system that it just makes it easier to flip the switch right it's not fair and it's certainly not effective to think that that's going to be the space where it happens like Well, and I have to say this because I'm sure you hear this like each is like, well, I just feel more connected to you after sacks and I'm like, wow
[SPEAKER_03]: Good for you because I don't like that.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not my experience.
[SPEAKER_03]: My experience is that like it's the same and so right just I hope that was okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: No, it's okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I love that you feel more connected after sex, but that that's not my experience because exactly that like right I think a lot of people think like if we have that then I'll feel more connected.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, this is where we get into, and we talked about this in our series a lot.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is where we get into that whole discrepancy and sort of like transactional thing, where that's, you hear that from a lot of men, a lot of men say, I feel more connected when we have sex, and then you hear a lot of women say, I feel connected when through emotional safety, and, you know, and non-sexual affection.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so then it becomes about like, well, okay, well, you don't give who who pours into the other person's bucket first.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, and it's like, and then guys get really like, okay, well, how much, like, okay, so if how many days and months, yeah, do I need to do so that I feel and I mean, and the hard thing is, is that it's for both people is the one person, it tears like, I can't get to that place to express that type of affection towards you unless this is poured into my bucket and
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's just as legitimate on the the other side of it.
[SPEAKER_02]: The higher desire partner, who's like, well, I have a hard time expressing that non-sexual affection and being emotionally present if we're not having sex.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so it becomes this really horrible tug-of-war, you know, so help us there a little bit.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, how do you say that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, all right.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I would entangle, tangle that not.
[SPEAKER_01]: So.
[SPEAKER_01]: First is, let's not discount the gift of being the hired Zaraspouse.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you mentioned, you have more testosterone, I do too.
[SPEAKER_01]: But let's see it for the gift it can bring to a marriage.
[SPEAKER_01]: There is so much powerful goodness that can come from great sex and sexual investment.
[SPEAKER_01]: It because you want to have sex with someone, just like a kiss or a hug or eye gazing, sex in the self is a very powerful language, it conveys so much and you bring it a lot of goodness to another person like to your wife.
[SPEAKER_01]: through your healthy sexuality.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's good that you want to have sex.
[SPEAKER_01]: Second is I think for a lot of people, sex is a very validating experience, especially for the higher desire or spouse.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, ah, she, if we were using, you know, stereotypes here, ah, she said yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: and we had sex and it felt really good.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel loved.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel seen.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel where it's a very validating thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when some people say I find sex very connecting, even though she feels very disconnected in the experience, I think what a more truthful way of saying it is, I feel very validated in the experience.
[SPEAKER_01]: I like the validation that sex gives.
[SPEAKER_01]: But if you're still two ships passing the night, once it, oh, I felt very connected afterwards in the other dinner, for most of the cases, I think the really chasing a validation frame, not so much A, did we really connect Soul to Soul frame?
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because you can tell when someone's not really in it for you, or when someone's really not with you, in any moment.
[SPEAKER_01]: So Dr. Steven Snyder, he wrote a great book years ago called Love Worth Making, and he teaches this concept for busy couples called the two-step.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love this, and it's really simple.
[SPEAKER_01]: But step one is everything that we've been discussing.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's learning how to connect first.
[SPEAKER_01]: But he takes a very nuanced approach as in order to connect with someone else, you have to kind of connect with yourself first.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he tells a story of a woman who sex always felt like an obligation for her.
[SPEAKER_01]: then she started doing yoga, she's busy with kids and everything, started making time for yoga, and after a good yoga workout, she found she had more sexual arousal just within her own body because she felt good.
[SPEAKER_01]: But as her husband came in the picture, she couldn't hold on, like arousal wasn't the same.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the two step was step one was learn how to hold onto that feeling she got from yoga,
[SPEAKER_01]: in the presence of her spouse.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what she did is they made a routine before going to bed, they're going to undress and be naked in bed.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it doesn't mean they have to have sex, but they're going to talk about their day.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're going to eye gaze.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're going to touch.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're going to talk.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're going to be a couple and be naked in it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And
[SPEAKER_01]: just that it brought her back to how she felt after yoga.
[SPEAKER_01]: It just really connected with herself and connected with the spouse.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then after weeks of that, she said, Dr. Snyder, step one's going great.
[SPEAKER_01]: What step two is like, well, have sex.
[SPEAKER_01]: But hold on to that feeling into the social, social did, but she kind of struggled to hold on.
[SPEAKER_01]: to the connection insects right off.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, what I failed, what do I do next?
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll go back to step one.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I could do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think couples, if they create routines or ways for them to just be together, be ideally without clothing, but a way to just kind of settle.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then I think the connectedness of sex, you hold onto that feeling, it'll just organically follow into a very eyes open, very emotionally connecting, sexual experience organically.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it seems like the big key component there, it's something that we talked a couple's about, it's something we definitely worked on between the two of us, is the lack of expectation that when there's expectation mixed in there,
[SPEAKER_02]: to enter into that vulnerable place of taking their clothes off if they think like well the expectation is once I do this I'm having to do something that I don't want to do you know and that's that's that's a big one too because it's hard
[SPEAKER_02]: what's the difference between like you said it earlier when you were talking about an incident between you and what your wife of what's the difference for you said like I was okay if we didn't I would have been delighted if we did and I think that's hard for the other partner to read the difference between an expectation and a like but if it did I'd be okay with that like I don't think that that's easy for you to discern
[SPEAKER_03]: Probably.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the part I think when you're married for a long time, your spouse can generally speaking, map you better than you can map yourself.
[SPEAKER_01]: I use the word map, but like they can track your motivations far more clearly.
[SPEAKER_01]: then you can map yourself because our brains like to like my brain.
[SPEAKER_01]: Of course, I'm only in it for the most purest, best mode of ever.
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's myself deception at play.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think our spouse are really tight.
[SPEAKER_01]: So sometimes you really got to lean in like yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think what it made that time different is my wife could feel the difference.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: That it felt true.
[SPEAKER_01]: That it was really about the investment in her.
[SPEAKER_03]: Not about what would make what would
[SPEAKER_01]: I could tell to her I'm blue in the face like no I really really want this for you but if she can still track something about it's not lining up for her I think she might get the more accurate picture what's really going on rather than what I think is going on and trying to convince her that she's crazy because she's not agreeing with the way I want her to perceive me.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's got to be genuine.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah this has been really amazing.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's, you know, I think like one of the things that's been wonderful about today is we talked about sex.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we really talked about sex.
[SPEAKER_02]: We didn't kind of do that whole thing of like generalizing it into intimacy.
[SPEAKER_02]: We talked a lot about sex.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it was also very just like, you know, normal.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's what's missing, that's what people really struggle with is just talking about sex.
[SPEAKER_02]: Even though it's a wonderful, it really is just another thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: We should just be able to talk about and like a rational, open-hearted, vulnerable way.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, you know, so it was nice to be a part of that with you.
[SPEAKER_02]: We appreciate that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: You picked the right career.
[SPEAKER_02]: or you two are doing it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, this is a fantastic work that you're doing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Please tell our audience because if there's somebody who's listening and is like, I just really connect with Dan, I'd really love what he's saying, love how he's saying it.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, how can they get a hold of you and what are the types of things that you're offering?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I have a gift for your listeners.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you go to get your marriage on dot com slash renovation, it's for the really, really, renovation podcast, I will email you a bunch of awesome stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have like 101 creative ways to initiate sex.
[SPEAKER_01]: Guide I'll send you to another 101 creative ways to make sex fun and exciting, just like really fun ways to like break up your routine.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have a mobile app called Intimately Us and another one called Just Between Us that are really intended for couples to improve sexual intimacy when they're together and then when they're apart and I have a jumpstart guide for anyone that's like hey I want to know a little more about kind of these topics we talked about like
[SPEAKER_01]: I have all that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So get your marriage on dot com slash renovation.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, and you can then you can drop that in the show notes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Great y'all make sure it's there and you can just click that when you hear a while.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for that, Dan.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, Dan, thank you so much.
[SPEAKER_02]: This has been this has just been a real pleasure speaking with you.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you all for listening, we hope today's conversation was just helping you kind of think more again more awareness and just like really recognizing that we all deserve to have amazing, deeply loving intimate relationships and really good sex.
[SPEAKER_00]: So as always, take care of yourself, take care of each other, bye-bye.