[SPEAKER_04]: This is a difficult podcast for the owner that I speak with.
[SPEAKER_04]: So there is some emotions going on in here, maybe a swear word or there.
[SPEAKER_04]: So if you're listening to this with little ones around, I might want to put the earpods in for this one.
[SPEAKER_04]: Not too bad, so don't worry.
[SPEAKER_04]: But this is a situation where you have a dog owner
[SPEAKER_04]: adopted a dog and the dog just isn't a good fit and so trying to a when is the decision to uh... rehome the dog or give the dog back and also just understanding that that's
[SPEAKER_04]: that that actually looks like success and it's not failure.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think a lot of dog owners think that they fail because maybe they have to rehome their dog or give their dog back or even create more structure or limitations for their dog and that's really not failing your dog that's actually advocating to say hey this dog could live a better life.
[SPEAKER_04]: with different circumstances, whether it's with you or somebody else, and that's not failure.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's just actually being mature and making the right decision in my opinion.
[SPEAKER_04]: So this is a great podcast, really diving into the mechanics of all of that.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I think it's good for every dog owner to listen to something like this because I think the world that we live in, you know, this dog owner just feels as such guilt of
[SPEAKER_04]: potentially returning this dog but really the risk is her family safety and the her other dog safety and also the dog that she adopted his ultimate happiness and freedom right this is kind of like the whole no bad dogs thing and this is really where this brand and even this podcast was created
[SPEAKER_04]: Where you have a dog that's making mistake after mistake after mistake after mistake because they're in the wrong situation They're in the wrong home, and that's really where that no bad dog's Saints started happening.
[SPEAKER_04]: I was like, look if you gave this dog to a single dog home They're gonna be the best dog ever because the only issues you have is with your other dogs outside of that the dog is perfect Which makes it hard to re-home, which makes it hard that you think that you're making the right decision because the dog is so good, but the reality is
[SPEAKER_04]: is if if you're putting the dog into a situation that is ultimately setting them up for failure over and over again, you're kind of at fault here, you know, so it's it's you know tiptoeing around these things and trying to figure out what's the right decision, but at the end of the day, you know, I don't think anybody should be pointing fingers.
[SPEAKER_04]: about these things because it is, you know, it is something that you just have to, you know, work through and see the risk over reward assessment and see what the best option is for you and your family and your mental health and everything else that goes in that.
[SPEAKER_04]: So enjoy this podcast guys.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you so much for listening.
[SPEAKER_04]: If you're listening to this and spot if I make sure you follow us We've been putting out really incredible podcast with some incredible guests Doctors and PhD specialists from all over the world that are
[SPEAKER_04]: They go to school for 30 years on this and they give you everything they know in an hour or two on my podcast, which is so amazing.
[SPEAKER_04]: So make sure you guys follow and keep up with all the amazing guests that we have on board Continuing for the rest of the year and of course the ones that we've done in the past and enjoy this podcast guys.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you so much for listening and we'll talk to you later.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so we have three dogs.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have an old people we've had him for many years.
[SPEAKER_01]: We just recently rescued a cane corso.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's pretty young.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's like a year-ish.
[SPEAKER_01]: We would call her like pretty good dog, although a little anxious.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's like very velcroy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we lost her locks and we were like, let's do it again.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we rescued a pressa.
[SPEAKER_01]: We drove 10 hours to get him.
[SPEAKER_01]: The rescue was like, he's so good.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's coming from a house, full of dogs, like five dogs, five, five presses by the way, which is insane.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it has not been going well.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I specifically reached out to you because I see you with your dog Burley and I kind of feel like maybe you get it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, maybe like we have a trainer.
[SPEAKER_01]: We've spent, you know, thousands of dollars on the trainer like we're still working with him.
[SPEAKER_01]: He works with Like really bad dogs like dogs that have like killed other dogs like he Has like some decent success.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we are like still having issues with us dogs.
[SPEAKER_01]: So,
[SPEAKER_01]: He first, like, when we first got them together to meet, he was like barking on the engine at the end of the week.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we were like, oh, okay, let's not, you know, not have a meet, like give him some time.
[SPEAKER_01]: So like, we took a day and then we did some some walks.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like they all seemed good.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we, like put them together, everything was fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: I realized like, we probably did that like a little pic.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so he attacked our pit, so he, okay, he was, he's too, he just turned to and he was not new wood.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I was like letting them all outside one morning and he attacked our pit goal.
[SPEAKER_01]: He didn't have like his leisure collar on so like I literally couldn't get him off of him and he like,
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, the lay of the land to get was bad-ish, but not like horrible horrible.
[SPEAKER_01]: Millicum.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that day, we got our train, Millicum.
[SPEAKER_01]: And since then, we have had, like, I don't know, probably, like eight more incidents.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's gardening.
[SPEAKER_01]: random things.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's like no rhyme or reason.
[SPEAKER_01]: He won't repeat the behavior in front of the trainer.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's always with me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Although I do spend like like I work from home, so naturally I spend the most time with adults.
[SPEAKER_01]: He has attacked both dogs like both the male and the female.
[SPEAKER_01]: We did get
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, the attacks haven't been as bad as the first time since then we've had like no broken skin or blood since then.
[SPEAKER_01]: So like the intensity is decreasing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, but it's also not just like a gravel or like he fully like mounts gets on top of the other dogs like to the point where they
[SPEAKER_01]: like this appear like you can't see them underneath of him and he won't stop until we like pull him off.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, how specific questions do you want me to go?
[SPEAKER_01]: What is it into?
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I'd like to know what your overall goal is.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like from here, bringing in this new dog.
[SPEAKER_04]: What is your overall goal?
[SPEAKER_01]: I want input on that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like we love him and but he's new to us and he's also like damaging rapport like I am hesitant now to like leave him unattended and you are near our children like even just him not when he's not even when he's not around the other dogs.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think if we could get to a point where he would be totally fine, everything else about him is great.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think our trainer is kind of stumped like after the last attack, I'll call it an attack, I feel like it's kind of sounds like dramatic, but he came over for like another session and we basically did nothing and he's like, okay, let's just like focus on obedience.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, okay, um, and I get that, but I also just feel like I don't really know what it looks like to have the dogs.
[SPEAKER_01]: Three in the house together, like will he ever be okay?
[SPEAKER_01]: And I want input on that because like we're not against, I'm not against taking it back.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like we have, we have two young children, um, and it's just starting to like really.
[SPEAKER_04]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I think there's I think there's two options.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think the the first option would be to return him.
[SPEAKER_04]: That is definitely on the table.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's not irresponsible irrational or unwarranted, inviting means.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Can I stop you for a second?
[SPEAKER_04]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: So like the rescue that we got him from is like,
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like this lady who supposedly has like a lot of success.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like she does training with like bite cases of guarding groups.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like she basically does presos, like cane corsoes, like that's basically all she does.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I talked to her about the training a little bit too.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she basically has told me that like he's not being good, because I don't believe that he's good.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that I'm like agent.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like that, he just put it up on my vibes.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, but yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's eventually true.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: So again, I think you have two options.
[SPEAKER_04]: The first option would be return him back to the rescue because again, this is not safe.
[SPEAKER_04]: the second option would be to be able to manage the dogs in a way that is successful because right now you've had an eight to nine different attacks and it's, it doesn't seem like it's getting any better.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, I agree with you, but it's like everyone else is kind of like,
[SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like we're basically trading this really thin line that like why don't my kids are in between him and the other dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like when he just randomly decides that he's pissed off correct correct.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I agree So you have those would be the Two best options that I can think of right now is he's not gonna get along with the other dogs likely He is Going to likely continue to try to fight them and bite them and attack them
[SPEAKER_04]: and it's surprising so far that you haven't been caught in the middle, considering how big he is.
[SPEAKER_04]: So the management side is what we call Creighton Rotate.
[SPEAKER_04]: So it's essentially...
[SPEAKER_01]: It's sustainable to me.
[SPEAKER_04]: What's that?
[SPEAKER_01]: That doesn't seem sustainable to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like it doesn't seem like the safe option, but like that's basically what we're doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like my husband way more laughs with it and I feel like I've just basically broken up all of the fights.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm like Mark cautious.
[SPEAKER_01]: I suppose, but I mean, people do that, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like they just like create and rotate their dogs forever.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_01]: That seems crazy to me.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's tough.
[SPEAKER_04]: it's absolutely tough.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's something that some people do knowing before they get the dog.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, but you have presses or no joke.
[SPEAKER_04]: They are not good pets at all.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like they are they are really challenging tough stubborn working dogs and they're not men.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're not
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what's like really hard for me, I don't know, and also I feel like I'm looking at these professional people that are basically telling me like so many varying things and I was a vet tech for a number of years that definitely doesn't make me a trainer like that's why I'm spending so much money on like dog trainers, but like I almost just feel like I had a feeling from the very beginning like I'm not actually sure if he's great with other dogs.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that he was giving that family problems and they wanted to get rid of them.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what I have a feeling about.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's that one that he came from.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, oftentimes people don't get rid of dogs that are, you know, fitting.
[SPEAKER_04]: Good.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, it is.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I mean, you have to define good.
[SPEAKER_04]: Because you can get it.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's so good.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, exactly.
[SPEAKER_04]: So if you didn't have any other dogs, he'd be great.
[SPEAKER_04]: But you do.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what I've been saying.
[SPEAKER_01]: But even when I'm trading here, I mean, like the other thing that's very confusing is like he wants to play with the other dogs, like he wants to play with them.
[SPEAKER_01]: He submits, like when the course all, like when she's like play with me, play with me.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's like, oh, okay, and he just like lays down.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like let's or chew on him and stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like I feel like they have good interactions.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that also there?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it also what like normal to just have them be like good and then not good.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it depends when is the one of the fighting's happening like when are the the incidents.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I have said like a lot of them are very random at first he was guarding toys.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, so obviously all of the toys one way immediately.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, then he was like,
[SPEAKER_01]: doing random spaces in the house.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like literally a space where the cage used to be.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then it was the cage in like a different room of the house.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like one of the dogs was like, wanna just sniff the cage and he was like, fuck that, you're not allowed to do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then like the most recent couple times were like, so the first time we had just fed them and like we fed them all very separately.
[SPEAKER_01]: picked up the bowls.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was holding his leash on my hand.
[SPEAKER_01]: I turned around to put the bowls in the dishwasher and he attacked the course of.
[SPEAKER_01]: The only reason I described that one very specifically is because the one that happened after that was, um, I, he went to go get a
[SPEAKER_01]: went to dump it in the sink and he attacked the course.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like it was the same thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I kind of like turned my back to put it in the sink and he went after her.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now the most recent time was really weird and slow motion.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like we have them all out and we were holding his leash and
[SPEAKER_01]: he was kind of like bothering us, trying to get on the couch and we were like, go, you know, you have to go away.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he, like, didn't win a land of floor.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he walked in this cage.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we were like, oh, cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, we were just kind of let him be in there with the door open.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was trying to get the core so to place.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like I said, she's a little anxious.
[SPEAKER_01]: So like sometimes when we tell her do stuff and she's like, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: She just gets like real flighty.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: She got nervous.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she was like, oh, I'll just go in the cage with Lou.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like really calm and it got like crazy emotion like I saw him look at her right next to him.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was fine and he looked at me and he gave me this like where he'd look and I was like and then he attacked her.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I do feel like I would say it's like space and me maybe.
[SPEAKER_01]: At the very least, they send potentially food.
[SPEAKER_04]: Why do you think it's you?
[SPEAKER_04]: It's curious.
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess, because I always happened, I'm always like in between.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, at least the two semi repeatable instances have been me sort of in between the food and then.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I was just, it's out of food or water.
[SPEAKER_04]: Do you feel like you're the one that does most of the food and stuff anyway?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Because it could be that, too, like it may look like it's you, but if you're the one that's always doing the food or the potential possession stuff, it could just be that, too.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, it's like it just chances are it's going to, you're going to be in the mix because you're the one handling the food and the water and the bowls and stuff, you know?
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, so it is interesting, so I would say that the resource guarding is probably your issue, I would say, from what you've told me, and it's not uncommon for dogs to fully get along, and then there'd be a fight over resource, because the resource is like a really
[SPEAKER_04]: primal instinctual thing it's not it's I say it's like not a personal thing either it's not I don't like you or you you take me off it really becomes this you're in my space and now you know now I have to defend this space or protect this space or whatever yeah
[SPEAKER_04]: So that's part of the management.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I think because of all the incidences that have happened.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, even if we said, OK, because you're already right now watching them like a hawk.
[SPEAKER_04]: So that's always going to be on the table.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like you're never going to let your guard down with them.
[SPEAKER_04]: And you can manage it.
[SPEAKER_04]: So you could do the crate and rotate.
[SPEAKER_04]: But again, I agree with you.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's really, it can be stressful.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're kind of on fair.
[SPEAKER_04]: It depends on what he's getting when he's outside of the crate and what his life is like outside of the crate.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know that's something that you'd have to determine yourself, you know what I mean.
[SPEAKER_04]: But yeah, it could be unfair for him if he's in the crate more often than not.
[SPEAKER_04]: But it really just depends because that's a very contextual question and a sense of, you know,
[SPEAKER_04]: It's tough to say, because if this, okay, here's the way I would explain it.
[SPEAKER_04]: If this dog was in another home without a dog and he was left out of the crate and was a perfect angel, then you're taking him away from right now you would be depriving him of the ability to live that life.
[SPEAKER_04]: Does that make sense?
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: But if you have a dog that in front of the caveat and the flip side to that, is if you have a dog that is just in a hole all the time, then it's more fair to create and rotate the dog and put the dog down.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, so there's levels to that question of
[SPEAKER_04]: if I let out of like if like if I'm not watching my dog for an example and he gets into something or you know choose on something or whatever that's not that's going to be everywhere he lives that's just his personality so when he when he's in his crate for a couple hours at a time because I don't want him to get into trouble or get into something that could harm him or whatever
[SPEAKER_04]: That's much safer for him, but if you're creating an animal because of their personality and behavior specifically to that home, and the dog would do better if it wasn't another home or have more freedom, then that's just more of a question that you'd have to weigh if that makes sense.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_04]: because if you if he was a single dog home and if he was a single dog home and somebody said like if if every single issue you've ever had has been related to another dog and outside of that he's part well then yeah that's kind of like I think he's a really awesome dog without other dogs there you go so that yeah and that's and then the only dog household
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: That I would agree with that from what you've told me, you know, I'm not really It's hard because I want him to be good and like, I don't like to be like a stale.
[SPEAKER_01]: a doctor.
[SPEAKER_04]: But only your failing.
[SPEAKER_04]: You're just not, it's just not the right fit.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think that there's, I don't think that I wouldn't consider that failing.
[SPEAKER_04]: I would just say, hey, we got a dog that supposedly was good with other dogs.
[SPEAKER_04]: And guess what?
[SPEAKER_04]: I have two other dogs, one of them is an older dog.
[SPEAKER_04]: And he's not good with dogs.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like our dogs are pretty good.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like they're probably not like amazing by your standards.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I have like a little fan of like very basic obedience.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we do like some general space stuff like without all of the specifics of like the trainer that we do have now, so I feel like our dogs are like better than most dogs and like they're pretty respectful to like you're not like super pushy I don't know I guess I also feel awful because this lady made me feel like if I was a good dog owner like he would be found.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I mean, I don't know all the ins and outs of what's going on, but I don't agree with that.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think that there's many dogs that are placed into homes that is not a good fit.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's not failing by, you know, the hey, this isn't a good fit for me.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, it's like, it's literally, you buy a pair of shoes offline and then they don't fit and you send them back.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like the company didn't fail.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's just that it's not a good fit.
[SPEAKER_04]: You gotta, you know, so, I don't...
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't think that that is true from what you've told you, you know, but it's true.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I hate it because like our other two dogs, like they would be fine with any dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: We could bring any dog into this house and they'd be like, oh, hey, how's it going?
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's not fair to them either that they have to go through this, you know, when I'm saying because they're looking at you to advocate for them.
[SPEAKER_04]: you know and so so they're basically you know like hey you brought this dog and he's kicking our ass every month and now they are looking at you as like why did you do this to us you know what I mean so that's something to consider too that I know that it sucks to
[SPEAKER_04]: like let me put let me put it to you this way and this may be helpful to you maybe it won't but i have you know you you've seen me somewhere with burly my mastive and i've talked about this a couple different times he is a very exotic uh working line breed um one of which i i have worked with them before but i've never owned one and i've been i've had a clear line of communication with his breeders since day one if at any point in time this dog were to go in attack
[SPEAKER_04]: my other dog for no good reason.
[SPEAKER_04]: I would return him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I wouldn't have any problem with it because I have two young kids.
[SPEAKER_04]: I have a one year old of three year old.
[SPEAKER_04]: I have a one year old and a three year old and I travel quite a bit.
[SPEAKER_04]: I got him to protect my family, not to put my family at risk.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so there's a difference between getting a pet dog and getting a working dog that's a tool for a specific job.
[SPEAKER_04]: I got him for I like him.
[SPEAKER_04]: My family loves him and I got him for a specific reason, though.
[SPEAKER_04]: I got him to be a protecting dog for my family.
[SPEAKER_04]: And if at any point in time he makes more stress than the other, the opposite, I would return on him because he's a very specific tool for a very specific thing and if that specific tool isn't working correctly, he would be returned.
[SPEAKER_04]: And there wouldn't be hard feelings, and it wouldn't be, oh, you failed the dog.
[SPEAKER_04]: No, no, no, he's not, he's great at what he does, but he just attacked my 10-year-old shepherd.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I'm not gonna be in London.
[SPEAKER_04]: And my wife called me and say, hey, he just killed Lakota, and one of the kids got bit in the middle.
[SPEAKER_04]: Nope.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: And there's no hard feelings like that.
[SPEAKER_04]: But that's the difference, you know, I think with what you're dealing with a little bit is you didn't necessarily get this dog for a very particular reason,
[SPEAKER_01]: I love the idea of having gardening breed dogs.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's why we got the corset.
[SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, you got one.
[SPEAKER_04]: So.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's very, she's probably like not your typical corset.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's very, we call her Silly Millie.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's not very scary.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I just think this guy is- Well, if you feel free her, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's very small too, though.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's like maybe only 75 pounds.
[SPEAKER_01]: She was a rescue so I have a feeling that she was like from not a great breeder in the area and she was like a runt which doesn't matter to us.
[SPEAKER_01]: I like rescuing dogs.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it was really lucky that we just happened to find her but.
[SPEAKER_01]: But any who people I guess people don't need to know that they just need to see.
[SPEAKER_01]: largest scary dogs.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I would say that, like I said, I think, you know, I'd stand by what I said originally.
[SPEAKER_04]: Do you have two options?
[SPEAKER_04]: I think the first option is return the dog and say, hey, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I,
[SPEAKER_04]: took this dog from you, adopted this dog from you with the context that this dog was good with their dogs.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now to be Devil's Advocate, she could turn around and say, well, he is good with other dogs, but maybe he has resource guarding because those are actually two separate things.
[SPEAKER_04]: So the resource guarding is something that you could try to work through if that's the issue.
[SPEAKER_04]: If the issue is the resource guarding and because again, devil's advocate.
[SPEAKER_04]: This isn't really a personal thing towards the other dogs.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's just more of a resource guarding thing.
[SPEAKER_04]: And the resource guarding thing could have been created because of your relationship.
[SPEAKER_04]: for sure, but it's something that you could try to work through, it's just that there is a risk to that.
[SPEAKER_04]: And the risk of working through resource guarding would be the safety of, you know, your other dogs, you know, or the mental health.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I noticed like a difference in our pitiful who would like not hurt a fly like if Lou loses a guy like if Lou's out he's like not I'm really want to be out like around everyone.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, chill.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, you saw easy going right.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's getting his ass kicked.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know he's getting his ass.
[SPEAKER_00]: What.
[SPEAKER_04]: that sucks because you know that's that's like the last thing you would want from raising a dog all the way into their lovely golden senior years and now they're leaning on you for you know protection and guidance and now you bring a dog and that's just
[SPEAKER_04]: you know, putting them through hell, and that's not fair, you know.
[SPEAKER_04]: So that's that again, like, just if it were me, you know, and I mean, there's things that you can work through, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like resource Guardian is a thing, but at the same time you have to really, you have to be smart, you know, because if you,
[SPEAKER_04]: If you give him to another home, you know, let's say you returned them, and then this person adopted the dog back out to a single or just no other dog home, he would be really good.
[SPEAKER_01]: The likelihood it's going to be such a good dog.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, such a good dog, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: So he'd live a better life.
[SPEAKER_04]: He'd be less stressed.
[SPEAKER_04]: Because it sounds like from what you said like that crate incident, like he's doing, that's why this like that primal instinctual resource guarding where the dog looks at the dog and is like, oh shit, I'm about to, like, turn into a Wolverine here, looks at you, like I'm about to do it and then does it?
[SPEAKER_04]: That's more of a, again, like that's like classical resource guarding with the dog, like they kind of snap out of it after and they're like, oh, what happened?
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, and you're like, you're just,
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah yeah yeah yeah they can't help it it's like it's an in sometimes it's genetics too we've been learning over the last five years that research Guardian actually can be hereditary and genetics and so sometimes they they do do these things and they don't even
[SPEAKER_04]: They don't even realize why they did it or anything.
[SPEAKER_04]: It just happens.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like I said before, you would not be a bad.
[SPEAKER_04]: You returning the dog for the dog to go to another single home to be more successful and to be happier is not failing.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's actually, in my opinion, advocating for the dog to say, hey, this dog actually does have resource guardians towards other dogs.
[SPEAKER_04]: And he's living a very stressful life with my two other dogs in the home.
[SPEAKER_04]: So this dog needs to go to a single family dog home, and he's not going to have any issues.
[SPEAKER_04]: So that's not failing.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's actually setting him up for success.
[SPEAKER_04]: And of course, it's a lose-leuth for you.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I'm not saying it's impossible.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm just saying the amount of stress, especially with the kids.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like the risk reward assessment right here doesn't.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, again, if my dog started, yeah, it doesn't make sense.
[SPEAKER_04]: And again, like, I can tell you right now, like my dog is trained.
[SPEAKER_04]: I have two young kids.
[SPEAKER_04]: I have another dog, I have an older dog.
[SPEAKER_04]: If at any point in time he got nasty, it wouldn't even, it would not even, like, be it, it would be, hey, man.
[SPEAKER_04]: Sorry, but you gotta, you gotta go.
[SPEAKER_04]: This isn't gonna work.
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, and it's not personal, it's I love you buddy, but you're going to go into another home, or you're going to go back to the breeder.
[SPEAKER_04]: But you know, I don't know if you have that relationship with this particular rescue or whatever it is, but I think that that's a conversation to have to say, hey,
[SPEAKER_04]: Um, we are seen resource guarding and I have to even if you said like I'm willing to Manage this dog for the rest of his life, but he's really not living his full life here because He's walking on eggshells trying not to turn into this Wolverine and your micromanaging him in your nervous Which could potentially make it worse?
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I mean, we don't think I'm making it better.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, but I also don't
[SPEAKER_01]: I just also feel like the risk is pretty high, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I don't want, like any time the dogs are like up and moving around.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, all right, kids get away from the dogs.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I don't want you to be in the middle.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's not fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not fun.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's not fun.
[SPEAKER_04]: No, it's not fun.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's.
[SPEAKER_02]: because I also feel like I need to protect him because we're just going to happen to him to keep fights that's good.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like the end of the line.
[SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Especially for presses because they, you know, they, they're very, um, uh, on it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like a lot of people don't know what they are and they, you know, they kind of look like a pit bull mix and they're like, you know, um, yeah, it wouldn't be good.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I would just, that's what I mean is.
[SPEAKER_04]: you know again for me that I always am doing like I always tell my clients and I and I do it with everything in life too I'm like risk overreward here like if you wait what happens is it is it worth it is it not worth it you know and so
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I mean, if it, here's the thing is I would say this again zooming all the way out, working with as many people as I do.
[SPEAKER_04]: There's a lot of people who aren't willing to even say out loud that they're willing to give the dog back.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so the fact that you were already mentally prepared, the fact that you're already mentally prepared to make that decision is your head of the game.
[SPEAKER_04]: because there's many people who, I mean, I know it's gonna be tough and sad and stuff, but at the same time, like you gotta think about your kids, you gotta think about the other dogs.
[SPEAKER_04]: And listen, you don't have to do this today or tomorrow.
[SPEAKER_04]: You can do your Creighton rotate, you can manage, you can say, hey, I don't wanna be stressed out today.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so I'm gonna bring you for walk with, you know, it could be with the other dogs or by yourself or whatever.
[SPEAKER_04]: You can still give the dog what he needs.
[SPEAKER_04]: throughout the day and then give him his own space and live completely fine and tell you're ready or you have the time in the energy to start having that conversation with whoever you need to have it with but I don't it's I don't want because I think a lot of people get into this fight or flight themselves where if you make the decision to say yeah you know what this dog is going to be more successful, more comfortable and happier, long-term and
[SPEAKER_04]: We're going to try to help make that happen and roadmap that out.
[SPEAKER_04]: You don't have to do it today.
[SPEAKER_04]: He's not going to be gone this weekend necessarily.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think you just need to say, okay, what we're going to, you could kind of do both of the options that I talked about is we're going to separate the dogs because we don't want any more incidences, part of my job is to decrease stress with dog owners, and I can tell you right now.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, well, hey, he's going to have resource guarding with things that you may not even expect.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so, you know, obviously we're going to separate the dogs.
[SPEAKER_04]: We're going to walk together.
[SPEAKER_04]: And we're going to do structured things together.
[SPEAKER_04]: We could do training together.
[SPEAKER_04]: If your husband's around, he can...
[SPEAKER_04]: If he's available, you can go for a nice walks together.
[SPEAKER_04]: You can still enjoy your time with everybody and everything's fine.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then the dog can go in their own space or in the creator, whatever, and then you can just live a happier life as you take your time through this and navigate through this.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_04]: Cause I don't want you to feel like this, oh crap, okay, all right, we've made this decision, we're gonna say tomorrow.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you don't need to do that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Cause this isn't, this is, it's very, yeah, it's very situational right now, it's not the worst case scenario, like I've seen a lot, like, you know, it's like you need to get rid of the dog today, you know, it's not that.
[SPEAKER_04]: So don't, you know, don't, I don't want you to stress about it too much, and don't want you to be hard on yourself, I think you should just,
[SPEAKER_04]: say okay yeah you know really think about it chew on it talk to your family and and really make the right decision and and if you do decide to say okay we need to you know give him a more successful life with another family then you just take your time you know maybe the the person that adopted him out to you would would take him back but
[SPEAKER_01]: We definitely signed in a agreement where like we wouldn't do anything else like she wants him back It's like I'm pretty sure that she was going to hand back even though she would probably make me feel like it was
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, but yeah, and listen, you know, you're, I think it over.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, here's the thing is you didn't, I think it's really tough on dog owners when they get into this situation because you feel like a failure and I think that that's natural, but you're not, you didn't sign up for behavior modification training, you know, you didn't sign up for
[SPEAKER_04]: breaking up dog fights and you're seeing your dog getting his ass kicked.
[SPEAKER_04]: You didn't sign up for Your kids walking around on egg shells and you nervous the whole time You didn't sign up for that.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's not what you signed up for.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not like you You signed up for a dog that was great with other dogs.
[SPEAKER_01]: There you go.
[SPEAKER_01]: There you go And we've not a fantasy if you're like he also came to us and he was not the with cats
[SPEAKER_01]: And we got him to like leave the catalog and like he does find out when I do trust him implicitly with the cat.
[SPEAKER_01]: But like he wasn't really good with any of us.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: So again, like you didn't, you know, you didn't, you're not fail.
[SPEAKER_04]: You can't fail something you never signed up for.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I mean, like, you didn't sign up for that.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's not like you said, oh, he's a tough case and he has resource garden, I'll take him and all handle it.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like, no, that's not what you signed up for.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, so you gotta give yourself more grace there.
[SPEAKER_04]: And, and
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, you know, that's a problem, you know, with shelters and rescue groups and stuff.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's, it's a rock in a hard place, you know, it's, it sucks, but at the same time, like, you can't risk the quality of life for you and your family and your other dogs, because one person either was wrong or kind of bent the, bent the goal post a little bit or, you know, something developed.
[SPEAKER_04]: But the great thing is, is if she is,
[SPEAKER_04]: what you say she is then you know she shouldn't make you feel that way she should you should just say hey this dog has attacks my other dogs eight times and regardless if I am the issue it it's something that was created before I got the dog you know it's not like
[SPEAKER_04]: it exacerbated you know with with you being the owner i think it was always there but you know maybe this other person just lived a more structured life and had a better handle and who knows but you didn't sign up for that so i don't think it's fair for you to blame yourself for that yeah i appreciate uh welcome it's truth well yeah
[SPEAKER_01]: It really sucks because he's like such a good dog, please.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that's a good, but that should be good for you to know.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, hey, this dog's not going to have an issue.
[SPEAKER_04]: Find, you know, home, you know, it's different.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and it's different because I can tell you right now, you know, there's so many conversations I have with people, you know, the dog has a bite history.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's, it's unprovoked or the dog has a history biting people.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then they're like trying to re-home the dog.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's like, uh,
[SPEAKER_04]: That's really tough.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I kind of want, like, I have that in the back of my mind too, because, like, I am pretty, like, strict, you know, it's like how we are careful with our dogs, like with children and other people, because I feel like one to dog has a history they never get to.
[SPEAKER_01]: trusted again.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and that's not really, you know, your, your case here.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is more just like, I got a dog that was supposed to be good with other dogs and he's turned out he's not.
[SPEAKER_04]: So hey,
[SPEAKER_04]: that thing I signed up for and that thing that I wanted to bring into my home is not actually what was on paper so therefore and it's not like this be different if she said hey um the dog's party train you got the dog home and they weren't or the dog was you know oh yeah the dog comes back when called like those are all things you can work on
[SPEAKER_04]: we're talking about an innate primal thing that you could work on.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's just the risk of your other dogs and your children are not to me, not worth it, especially when you have somebody with open arms.
[SPEAKER_04]: It'll say, hey, if this isn't working, I'll take the dog back.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, like you have like so many people do not have that option, you know?
[SPEAKER_04]: So that would just be my if that's
[SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I feel like that's kind of where my heads out.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've just been getting like, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm trying to go to people that people who don't even better than me and like even even our trainer.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I was like the last time when happened the last time he came to us.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was like, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I just wonder if he was like not really good with other dogs.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he was like, this dog is not a dog that's like not good with other dogs.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, I don't know if I buy that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like if he was going with other dogs, like we'd be able, like with our other, our other two, they can be created together.
[SPEAKER_01]: They can eat right next to each other, like we don't force them, but like the one dog can walk over to the other dogs bowl and like no one's getting bit because of it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's what you.
[SPEAKER_01]: That in my mind is like good, like that's a dog that's like good with other dogs.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, they just, and again, sometimes it's genetic.
[SPEAKER_04]: So sometimes it's not even good in bad or good training in bad training or good dog bad dog.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's just they have it.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, it's there is like anything else, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like mental health or your height.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like, you know, it's like you got it and you can't really, you know,
[SPEAKER_04]: you can you can you can work with it but again like you're you didn't sign up for that that's not I again I think just drawing everything out and looking at the risks like the risks are your kids and your other dogs and of course your mental state of mind it's not to be it's just especially because you have somebody that's like hey if this isn't working I'll take the dog back don't worry about it
[SPEAKER_04]: Like that's such an easy opportunity for you to be like, yeah, and and and re-home this dog to somebody who doesn't have other dogs or um and the dog is going to be a little much happier life.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, so I just yeah, so the training like I said training is super helpful for sure like having having good obedience on a dog that has these particular things is is mandatory.
[SPEAKER_04]: Having advanced obedience on these dogs is also like super helpful again because you can like that You were talking about recalling the dog out of the crate when that happened and you know those are exactly the the things that you would do So when you saw something get kind of sketchy or you saw this
[SPEAKER_04]: uh... potential interaction or you saw this like oh shit moment where they get into this situation having that good down or that good recall that could leave it uh... could could be the second before things pop off for sure so training i don't want you to think that you know you're uh... when you hired your trainer whatever like that's a waste of time it's not like training is really important but it's not going to it's not going to turn off that primal instinctual resource guarding thing um... you'd have to
[SPEAKER_04]: And just to give you context, you'd have to really work on it, which means, and again, I just don't think you're in a position to do this realistically.
[SPEAKER_04]: You'd have to really set the dog up for failure and work through it.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, so bite gloves, food, other because because really
[SPEAKER_04]: The other dogs or actually the ones that are at risk here, you know, you don't must have to use them as bait or your trainer would have to use another dog and I mean, it's possible.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's just again it's pretty stressful especially from what you've told me it sounds like it's a dog that doesn't want to do it, but
[SPEAKER_04]: No, he has to enter that area and his head, but again, there is things you can work on with it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't want to say it's impossible because we have successfully modified things like this, you know, correcting the dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: But we do, like he gets major punishment, like after an event, like, I keep, but
[SPEAKER_04]: you know he wears a prom collar like he knows the moment he does it that he should not be doing it yeah yeah and that's what i mean is he probably note and he knows that he's it's wrong it's just you know when he does it he he's not himself he took you know he turns into a different to different animal and that's that and a lot of times that is signifying that it's genetics it's not something
[SPEAKER_04]: or the dog is trying to make better decisions.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's the dog has this innate primal resource guarding baked inside the dog's jeans.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's really difficult for, I mean, in most cases, you just can't get it out.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's not like you can tell on a fish not to swim.
[SPEAKER_04]: You do have to manage it.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's why I from like really early ages with my, you know, and this is kind of,
[SPEAKER_04]: the, you know, water into the bridge here, but really early ages, you know, I'm, I'm always in my dog's food bowl, touching my dog while they're eating, playing with the food bowl, just this, well that's just interesting piece of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was like I, and not worried about him with people.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, just dogs.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so again, like, you know, made me more cautious, like, I'm like, oh, he is like definitely resource bar and like I should probably be careful to not just like Rupus football out of the cage.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, because you don't really know like where that line is, you know, where's a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like where's the line.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, so unfortunately, well, I do really appreciate it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I, uh,
[SPEAKER_01]: We're definitely still keeping our trainer and like going in with the obedient son, the other dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he should.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the couple sees all, you know, he gets like grandfathered a little bit.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like he doesn't have to be held, that's such a high standard.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, of course, I was like young and still very cliable.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I think you should, I think you definitely should work on continuing to work on your training and your obedience.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think that that's, yeah, you definitely should.
[SPEAKER_01]: Not negotiable, really.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you need it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not like she's, she's also not like a tiny, do nothing kind of to all, like she also has to listen well.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I think it's also important to know like in the process of transition of potentially a new home we're going back to the breeder or the rescue where, or whatever, you know, having no obedience.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, just in general, I always tell people, even if you have the best therapy dog, like having a dog that drags you down the road or not listening to you is a pain in the butt.
[SPEAKER_04]: So having good obedience, having good obedience
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, anyway, I mean, I really appreciate you your time and talking through this with me and like your opinion.
[SPEAKER_01]: And also like I do love your videos.
[SPEAKER_01]: I watch a lot of you of your videos.
[SPEAKER_01]: I really appreciate a compliment that you put out.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Please keep doing what you do.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you very much.
[SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, yeah, it was of course.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it was really nice meeting you and I wish you the best of luck.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I like I said, I think you should just really give yourself some more grace through this and, you know, take deep, yeah, take deep breaths and just realize that you're not going to fail by returning a dog that is is not only not successful in your ethos, but also is potentially dangerous to your family.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, it's not, you're not, you put in your, your kids first from your dogs behavior that they can't control is not failing.
[SPEAKER_01]: So thank you for saying that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I really appreciate it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[SPEAKER_04]: We'll have a good day and, and I wish you the best of luck.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks.
[SPEAKER_01]: You too.
[SPEAKER_01]: Bye.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thanks.
[SPEAKER_04]: Bye.