[SPEAKER_00]: Hello everybody, welcome back to the NoBad Dogs podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is an excellent podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, when I said excellent, I mean it, we go over, this is one of those podcasts I just haven't done in the while.
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like we're a dog owner is having severe issues and it's completely lost and doesn't really know where to start.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think you guys are really, really, really gonna like this.
[SPEAKER_00]: This podcast, it's absolutely packed with some incredible information about where to start.
[SPEAKER_00]: with your dog training and having a reactive dog, having a dog that won't get into the car, feeling like you've done everything.
[SPEAKER_00]: We've done four other trainers in behaviorist, we've got medication on board, and we just don't know what direction to go.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is an incredible podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: So enjoy this podcast, guys.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for listening, and we'll talk to you on the next one.
[SPEAKER_04]: We've had our pup for, he's going to be six in April.
[SPEAKER_04]: And we rescued him and he was eight weeks old.
[SPEAKER_04]: From second chance rescue in June 2020, we did a ton of socializing all the things that people were worried about during that key pandemic time.
[SPEAKER_04]: We live in Queens.
[SPEAKER_04]: Dalgi Daycare, traveling a lot.
[SPEAKER_04]: And we noticed, yeah, just around a little bit under a year, he started to be super reactive, like Barky Lungie, et cetera.
[SPEAKER_04]: So whatever we're at right now, we're still in that same position.
[SPEAKER_04]: He's incredibly sensitive, incredibly reactive to people, to dogs, to everything.
[SPEAKER_04]: So it's a huge challenge for us.
[SPEAKER_04]: But we have done tons of training, went to behavioral that lots of time, money, we'll keep doing it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Did you get some medication?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I was just kind of sad, did you get some medication?
[SPEAKER_04]: We did, and I would love your opinion on that too as we talk more.
[SPEAKER_04]: But he's been on the reconciled, the highest dose, the 64 milligrams daily for the past several years.
[SPEAKER_04]: It does, I think, manage him overall, his anxiety.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think it is just, it is killer, but the reactivity will never change.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like he's so incredibly scary, like not the dog that we know when he reacts.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, you know, and I think the reason why we want to have another chat with an experienced trainer like yourself,
[SPEAKER_04]: is just to get more advice in other opinion.
[SPEAKER_04]: He is extremely now sensitive to getting in the car, which is hard for us because we both travel a lot for work and he needs to get in the car to be able to go upstate to my mom's house.
[SPEAKER_04]: She lives in Hyde Park, which I know you're up in your Albany area to the point where I physically have to drag him.
[SPEAKER_04]: I hide everything, my suitcase is everything so he knows that we're traveling, but he just knows.
[SPEAKER_04]: So he will shut down.
[SPEAKER_04]: And we'd de-sensitize and we're trying to de-sensitize.
[SPEAKER_04]: We're doing everything we're supposed to.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's just, it's a lot.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, it's a lot of information.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I'm just like, give a question for restart.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, it's good, it's good.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, okay, so tell me a little bit about the training that you've already done, just you can keep it as brief as you'd like, but I just like to know what type of training you've already done, what things have worked, what things have not worked.
[SPEAKER_04]: And in a quick term, the positive reinforcement training, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Avoiding triggers physically with a trainer.
[SPEAKER_04]: We've actually worked with about four trainers at this point.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think the most I've seen one trainer is probably about 10 sessions in a row.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'd say probably the second or third session.
[SPEAKER_04]: Again, the trainer will come in the home, but when someone would always be leashed, he would freak out to the point where, again, it's incredibly scary.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then the trainer, you know, just kind of be there, be present, pay no attention to him.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's kind of been like 95% of our training.
[SPEAKER_04]: Just kind of like dropping, you know, you mean just kind of like making sure he feels safe with that person in the space.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: He's he's incredibly smart.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, all the basic commands.
[SPEAKER_04]: So it's really just been.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: Positive reinforcement training.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: So just to reiterate every trainer you've worked with has been a positive only trainer.
[SPEAKER_00]: Ignoring him when he barks and reacts avoiding triggers, avoiding other dogs, avoiding people.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: Um, but the only I should see if
[SPEAKER_04]: the like in your email, so sorry about this time.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, you're fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're fine.
[SPEAKER_04]: We're both going to be working right now too.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, good.
[SPEAKER_04]: So yes, he'll help be able to he's a bit more concerned.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm more, I get a very emotional obviously.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's been quite a journey with Winston.
[SPEAKER_04]: But for example, you know, our situation is just so different.
[SPEAKER_04]: He travels half the year, so he's not really around.
[SPEAKER_04]: my partner.
[SPEAKER_04]: So even like last night, for example, he's home and he's trying to walk Winston outside and Winston will freeze.
[SPEAKER_04]: He won't move, but when I come home, he'll walk outside with me that makes sense.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's all about his and like, he just won't, he won't move.
[SPEAKER_04]: He won't listen.
[SPEAKER_04]: He shuts down.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: And just not if our consistent if that makes sense, the way life's all assisted.
[SPEAKER_00]: And when you have a dog that is sensitive and potentially insecure and also potentially opportunistic, because they can kind of go a lot of different ways where somebody can come out, get your dog, and he freezes, and he goes, no, it's not so much that the dog says, hey, I don't want to do this, this is what my retaliation or my
[SPEAKER_00]: symptomatic behavior would be of freezing or or just yeah yeah freezing is a good word but it's a hell of the person handles it is the biggest the biggest thing right so hey George George so
[SPEAKER_04]: I hear Mark in the background, because when people talk, he flips out too.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: No problem.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thomas was on that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, nice to meet you as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we're just, we're just, we're just, uh, talking about Wednesday, I'm talking about him freezing, uh, uh, when, when you take him out or, or, I would assume, you know, many people who, who he doesn't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's important to, we're going to go down these things, but it's important to know how you handle that situation is crucial because the dog could, and again, it borders between opportunistic and also insecure, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is just for the context of Winston freezing up when somebody else gets him out outside of mom.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it could be just hit him going like, hey, I don't want to do this or you're going to make me like that opportunistic like do I have to and or it could also be I'm not really comfortable with this because I'm not confident with you or whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we kind of see this teeter.
[SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes it's a little bit of both, but oftentimes it's more or less like I don't like I don't I don't do this with you.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not so much necessarily.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to do this with you.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just like you're not mom.
[SPEAKER_00]: What are we doing?
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't walk me or whatever.
[SPEAKER_04]: So because of the majority of the time it's been George even just the back of a little bit.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I did explain Tom asked us, you know, what methods we've been using, kind of talk through all the trainers that we've had,
[SPEAKER_04]: And you know, sort of the reason why we're doing this now is because of our situation with him, um, yeah, kind of freezing shutting down, we do have the high value treats the car.
[SPEAKER_04]: So what the car has most of the car.
[SPEAKER_02]: The cars of a huge deal.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, but I mean, from what I've seen lately, we get down to the street.
[SPEAKER_02]: If it's just me, he kind of freezes up because it looks like he's looking around to see where Lisa is.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then.
[SPEAKER_02]: I kind of have to coax him and encourage him what's walk a little bit, but he doesn't walk too far with that.
[SPEAKER_02]: But as soon as we walk downstairs around meet Lisa for work, and he sees her outside, he completely changes.
[SPEAKER_02]: And now he goes on this walk.
[SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, it's time it's important for you to know that like we live in the city, we've been in the city for 20 plus years, but to that point with George's work travels.
[SPEAKER_04]: He's only in the city really for a few months out of the year.
[SPEAKER_04]: Otherwise, like we're in the car, we're going to visit him in North Carolina.
[SPEAKER_04]: So like I think Winston associates the city's surroundings, everything that comes with the city, also with me and he feels, I don't know if it's like a safe thing or whatever, like a more upstate with the dog, he's fine.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like George walks him and he's fine.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I think the city part, I think just like to know that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like it's like what George, like three months you're technically living in the city?
[SPEAKER_04]: At a time.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Out of that, it's, you're not here.
[SPEAKER_02]: But this past fall winter, I really wasn't the one walking you with, was you?
[SPEAKER_02]: Cause I wasn't holding the leash.
[SPEAKER_04]: Cause you had elbow surgery, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like yeah, yeah, so you know, and like I said before it it's a lot of it is is the dog go it's more about how you react than what the dog is actually doing That that's the most important thing if the dog goes wait a minute and if you and it's a lot it's a lot of human behavior children behavior adolescent behavior
[SPEAKER_00]: The more you get, you know, kind of feel into that, you know, for an example, what you don't want to do is if he puts on the brakes and then and then we turn around and then we have this conversation where it's like, come on, we're going to walk, come on, what's wrong?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like the most beneficial thing is to really
[SPEAKER_00]: Just ignore the dog in that scenario and just and just kind of turn around and keep going and if he stops All you do is you do this like like almost like think about like ringing the bell You're just like using the leash like don't don't and you're just you're just keep going Nine times out of ten I would almost even say ten times out of ten the dog just box up and goes But a lot of times when they put on the brakes and they go in a minute
[SPEAKER_00]: This isn't what we normally do here, then, and it's okay for them to do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: You just have to say, no, okay, come on, we're going to keep going.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so again, it's most important how you handle it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now judging by what you've already told me, I would assume that the dog is on a harness.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so the dog being on a harness is going to really give him all of the power and the control, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So, that also definitely plays a role into how much the dog can manipulate you because, you know, and I've seen dog owners do this and obviously just by, you know, going down the line, I can probably tell you how he acts by what you've already done.
[SPEAKER_00]: The moment that the dog puts on the brakes and then the harness comes off, the harness either just literally drags the dog, where they're just like, you know, or the harness will like go over the dog's head and it's just, it's kind of a mess.
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't want to force the dog to do anything.
[SPEAKER_00]: You want the dog to make the decision to do it So there's many many many ways to kind of peel that onion and The card thing is a very similar behavior where the dog just
[SPEAKER_00]: Nope, mmm, not doing this.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's different context, but very similar behaviors from hint from his standpoint, where if he puts on the brakes for whatever reason and says I'm, and it could be, he knows when he gets in the car, you guys are going to leave because you're going to drop off at grandmothers or the boarding plate or whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: Or it could just be him, you know, stalling, you know, dogs do that all the time.
[SPEAKER_04]: He is fine in the car, I mean, he paces a little bit and then he'll just lay down.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, he's in the car.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like the process of getting hit, but the good game, you know, jump and hold jump, but then now he just won't do it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Period.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And a lot of times what I find is, you know, when I talk about relationship a lot with my training, like I really always circle back down to relationship, like training is one thing, but training in relationship is another thing, but I think relationship is much deeper, much bigger.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like the big kind of like foundation, if you have a good relationship with your dog chances are your dog's gonna listen to you or the dog's gonna get trained a lot easier.
[SPEAKER_00]: Training is more of like the behavioral cues sit down, stay heel, leave it, recall blah, blah, blah.
[SPEAKER_00]: But this kind of circles, I see a lot of this evidence from, and I collect a lot of data from dog owners where you start to see this kind of pop up in a lot of different places.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what that means is, you know, relationship, like zoom all the way back out.
[SPEAKER_00]: and think about the relationship on the leash.
[SPEAKER_00]: You go out with him.
[SPEAKER_00]: He does something that he wants to do, react, maybe pull or both.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know when he sees a dog or he sees a person and he's barking and reacting.
[SPEAKER_00]: that the principle of him acting and doing what he wants to do really starts to bubble up in other places, it pops up in other places, where allowing the dog to react to make the decision to say, hey, you can go off and do this, like you can do what you want, kind of enabling it and avoiding the confrontation or the assertiveness of what, what, what?
[SPEAKER_00]: what's actually going on here like why this is very inappropriate this is making sense you're stressing yourself out stressing us out obviously so sometimes the enable meant of do what you want when you want.
[SPEAKER_00]: And of course, not on purpose, right, unintentionally we do this, then sometimes the dog will start to go, you know, I don't want to do this either and they, you know, whether it's raining or it's it's cold or it's or again, I don't want to get in the car or I don't want to walk with this person.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I would just, I just want to say that as like a big picture, I find that dogs who haven't haven't been given proper and adequate structure or boundaries tend to start to develop these types of nuanced behaviors throughout the dog's life.
[SPEAKER_00]: and it bubbles up in many places in a lot of times it's pan-caking right nope not doing this it could be the car it could be putting the collar on it could be getting into the crate if you use a crate whatever like a lot of times that first initial you know because you got him as a puppy and so throughout his life
[SPEAKER_00]: If we've allowed him to make decisions that he wants to do, a lot of times his pathway of his life is just if I just resist I kind of get what I want right because we either turn around and go the other way or we we avoid and we say, here's some food and so a lot of times that I just wanted to point that out before we continue that a lot of times that real negligence on assertively telling the dog that what they're doing isn't appropriate.
[SPEAKER_00]: We'll actually enable the dogs behaviors everywhere else in the relationship to then Pancake and not You know, so just as a side note That's helpful.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think what's confusing for us is special with the car, which is our biggest anxiety and stress at the moment Is that every single time there's been no bad experience though in the car so like we did travel him for the first two years of his life
[SPEAKER_04]: which was June 2020 through 22, literally went to, drove to Arizona, stayed there for a few months.
[SPEAKER_04]: George was for spring training, and then to Alabama, and then we go to Charlotte, and he's happy once he's there because he knows he's going to see George as well.
[SPEAKER_04]: So like, and when we go up state, we're usually up there for a while, we'll be up there for a week at a time or two weeks, but it's not like it's a quick grab and go.
[SPEAKER_04]: And like sometimes I leave, like for example, I have to get him in the car and Friday, because he's leaving, and I have to leave next Wednesday for Sanford for work.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know why he's so upset with the car and like, I just, that part's confusing to us.
[SPEAKER_04]: And again, he just knows, but we don't have a bad insight on Friday when we try to get him in the middle of the world.
[SPEAKER_00]: But don't you think, don't you think like he picks up on at, it's kind of, it's a, it's a, it's, you know, quite literally a vehicle to, if I get in here, the next stop is, you're going to, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So here's the thing, regardless, here's what I want you to
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't, I always like want to know the reason and sometimes it's really difficult to kind of get, like, it doesn't make any sense like, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but let's say 70% of the time we get in the car, we go somewhere and we hang out for a week and then we come back and he's not getting dropped off.
[SPEAKER_00]: So maybe that doesn't make sense.
[SPEAKER_00]: But let me just give you some low hanging fruit on getting the dog into the car.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, in the same exact thing for the pancakeing, my suggestion is always to give the dog, and this is worked, I had a video actually of a pit bull, was at a shelter, a super shut down and they had the same thing, like we can't get the dog in the car, blah blah blah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And, and I've done this a couple times.
[SPEAKER_00]: What I do is I get a long line.
[SPEAKER_00]: So a long line, I have one right here, but it's just a 15 foot leash.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's exactly what it sounds like.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can get, you can make your own.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can get them on my website.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can, yeah, you can probably, you know, use an extension cord if you really wanted to.
[SPEAKER_00]: Excuse me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm throwing things everywhere, but you know, a long line is just a 15 foot long line or 20 or whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what I like to do is it's kind of like greasing the wheel a little bit So in the beginning you go up and the dogs who nope not gonna do it very common And so what I like to do is it's a very least used like a Martin Gale collar
[SPEAKER_00]: And a Martin Gail caller allows you to communicate with your dog in a much, much, much more realistic and efficient and effective way.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So when we're harnessing the dog, and I'm not against harnesses.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just against harnesses with people who have communication problems, because the harness doesn't really help you communicate.
[SPEAKER_00]: It just holds on.
[SPEAKER_00]: right so and it gives the it gives the dog with with the it gives the dog who doesn't know how to drive the ship all the control right like when you're passing the keys off to the kid you drive I'll sit in the back it's like no no no no let's let's let's let's let's let's let's let's let the four-year-old sit back here and let the the adult drive right
[SPEAKER_00]: So a martingale collar is great and and here's what I've been almost I can't remember time this didn't work So what I do is I go up to the thing the car in this case and I open up both doors so the back doors are both open
[SPEAKER_00]: And I use a long line and I just continue to walk and I have a Martin Gale collar on and a Martin Gale collar is it's a flat collar with a little bit of what we call action exactly exactly it's like the best everyday wearing collar it allows you to communicate, but it's you know it's safe to wear and it's not and at first sensitive dog it's not going to you know it's not going to freak the dog out right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I go up to the car the dog pancakes.
[SPEAKER_00]: I keep walking and most times this happens a lot for dogs who pancake on walks This is exactly the same protocol that I use and it's it's I can't remember time.
[SPEAKER_00]: It hasn't worked So the dog pancakes you keep walking a lot of times the dog goes oh shit and they're like get back here and then it just immediately like Okay, and then you just a lot of times.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'll just you know change the leash one thing about like slipping off though
[SPEAKER_04]: The Martin Gale.
[SPEAKER_00]: Not the Martin Gale.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because the Martin Gale, that's kind of the point of a Martin Gale as it has that action.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's, it's a snugly fit collar that actually can apply pressure, and that's, and that's where you're running into issues right now is essentially if Winston does it want to do anything or and or, and or if he does something that you don't want him to do, you don't have any ability to correct the behavior.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so think of a correction as the car is going off the road and it's the rumble strips like that's a correction right a little kid goes one plus one is four nope it's two right that's a correction it's a talent that that's wrong this is right so
[SPEAKER_00]: So when you're doing this car thing, just stay in on that, you go up to the car, the dog pancakes, you keep walking.
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't make it a big deal.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're just like, I mean, like you were with a kid, where they're like, I'm staying here.
[SPEAKER_00]: You go, I'd be back tomorrow or whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: You just keep going.
[SPEAKER_00]: And 40% chance, and I'm just thinking of all the times I've done this, typically that's enough for the dog to go, shit, I'm coming.
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't leave me.
[SPEAKER_04]: They kind of have to be a 15 foot leash.
[SPEAKER_04]: I only
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to you don't have to leave the dog you know next door.
[SPEAKER_00]: You just you want it.
[SPEAKER_00]: You want to have enough leash and you don't have to you don't have to get to the end of the leash Just have enough leash You're walking with your dog and you're the dogs right next to you The moment that they pancake you have the ability to just keep walking you could use a flexi if you're more comfortable with that You know the The flexi leash is you could use that in this exercise, but essentially You just want to keep moving and let the dog know like hey, this isn't working
[SPEAKER_00]: Every single time this dog is pancakeed, it's created a stopper stall from the handler every time.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, of course, the dog is going to go, oh, all I need to do is pancake, and it'll stop the thing I don't want to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: Whether that's walk or getting to the car or whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so what we have to reverse engineer here is, well, that doesn't work.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you stop and stall, I'm going to actually keep walking.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's a good chance that the dog will just like start to come up.
[SPEAKER_00]: But then you run into the issue, the dog gets near you.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then when they get to the car, they're like, but I'm not getting in.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, and just, you know, Tom, like, we have had, and Winston obviously loves us and whatnot.
[SPEAKER_04]: He has bald out before to the point where like he won't go out of his harness when I try to look
[SPEAKER_04]: He isn't bitten us, but he did kind of like scrap like scraped like scraped like he's that terrified to get in the car too So I do wonder when we get to that point Because I was at creating fear for him now, which is also what so like when that happens because we know Winston I haven't met him yet, but like he will shut down and we know that he will So like do we let it go at that point and try again later or do we continue to force the situation?
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, it's a great question and it's really difficult to answer because I really have to see it, you know, because you're you telling me this dog shut down and what I consider a dog shut down may be two different things.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's really difficult to answer.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so a couple things like again, we're trying to desensitize the dog just getting into the car.
[SPEAKER_00]: This isn't the moment that we actually are going up state or we're going to the airport or whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like we're not doing this when we actually need to go somewhere.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're doing this when we have time to kill and so.
[SPEAKER_00]: So let's let's just go over a couple of exercises and then you can try a little bunch of things because you know that's the that's the thing about dog training is you're kind of working somebody brings your car and they say it's making noise it's like all right where do we start like you just start tinkering on stuff just to see what kind of loosens up okay and you start finding stuff and it starts to make sense to be honest.
[SPEAKER_00]: So with this type of thing, it's not gonna be a binary.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do this and it's gonna happen.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's gonna be What can I do to help the dog loosen up?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because that's what he's doing is he's stiffening up, and so we're doing this when we have time All like again, here's here's what I would do.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would get the dog hungry.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would get that so first thing in the morning
[SPEAKER_00]: All that stuff, bring his bowl out to the car, and a lot of times again, like a lot of times dog owners will make it a big deal, so in this, again, low hanging fruit, don't do this stuff, like you get down, depending on where your car is parked, and if you, you know, whatever, but you don't make it a big deal, a lot of times, if a dog is spooked out from the car, I'll go outside near the car.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't say anything so a lot of dog owners are big.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're just gonna get in the car It's gonna be everything's gonna be fine like don't do any of that stuff It just cues the dog up like okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: What what's I'm I'm super suspicious right now You know, you do that like I'll get a treat by the car.
[SPEAKER_04]: We get all hooked up
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't do that because it's the same thing like when the dog sees the the suitcases.
[SPEAKER_00]: They know like You know dogs are so smart, you know, they can detect high blood pressure cancer heart attacks like they know if you're like Trying to trick him into something so you get what I do is I get the food out either in my treat pouch or I get the bowl of food and I'll just like I'll work the dog around the car and I'm like, okay, we're not leaving and then I'll just open the car door and I'm like, hey, what about this and honestly like you'll be shocked
[SPEAKER_00]: How many times the dog once you break the the I call it the circus once once you break the the actual The pet the the the the routine of hey we're gonna go outside It's gonna be everything's be fun right and then the car doors open it just creates this like I don't know that's like going to the vet They're like I know what you're up to here.
[SPEAKER_00]: This isn't this doesn't happen in
[SPEAKER_00]: So you're just trying to loosen that up where you work next to the car, the dog's like, this is great.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love you.
[SPEAKER_00]: You have my favorite treats.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is amazing.
[SPEAKER_00]: You've got chicken.
[SPEAKER_00]: You've got turkey.
[SPEAKER_00]: You've got the good stuff, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: You're working in the other car.
[SPEAKER_00]: You open the car door up.
[SPEAKER_00]: You throw it in.
[SPEAKER_00]: You'd be shocked how many times dogs just jump right in because they're
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not saying that's gonna happen, but then the other thing that I really like to do is I open up both car doors with that long line with that flexi and I get right into the back seat with I get right into the seat the dog is out there like in the in the parking lot or grass or whatever and they're looking at you like what the hell you doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I'll just go to the other side of the car, so then now your further what you're trying to loosen up is the dog to make the decision to jump into the car by his self.
[SPEAKER_00]: So don't look at it as a granular.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, we have to get into the car to go to upstate right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Think of it as I want to break down the walls of resistance by desensitizing good experience after good experience with this dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, it reminds me, you know, I've been a trainer now for over 13 years, and I've been a dad for three years and working with kids and trying to get them confidence and different sports and different things like it's the same exact thing where you're like, no pressure, but if you do it, you're really like, yeah, you did it.
[SPEAKER_04]: We don't do anything.
[SPEAKER_04]: We allow him to go.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then he kind of like stops and we don't force it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, keep going in circles, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: So on the way back to our apartment, we try to go to the car and he's like, absolutely not.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, he's just like, nope.
[SPEAKER_04]: So like the second time or the third time at night, he's just, he's just aware.
[SPEAKER_04]: So the morning is a third set.
[SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, George, I don't know if you want to add to that, too.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I think, well, so we have been doing that and he's still somewhat resistant, but he'll like look.
[SPEAKER_04]: He only mean and he kind of hank.
[SPEAKER_04]: So.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh.
[SPEAKER_02]: everything that you mentioned Thomas with what like trying to create a positive experience.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we've done that pretty well.
[SPEAKER_02]: I said this past fall.
[SPEAKER_02]: We were at a spot where we'd be able to just go on our normal morning walk every morning.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we would walk past the car every morning and we would make it a game.
[SPEAKER_02]: We'd open a door and we'd get him, hey, you want to jump in and he would get so excited to jump in that he would like be pulling us to the car.
[SPEAKER_02]: So he would jump in right away every single time.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we went up state and we were there for like probably five weeks, six weeks through how it is, and we had a Lisa kept continues to do that in the driveway amongst us, just made it a game.
[SPEAKER_02]: He would jump in, jump out, wouldn't necessarily go anywhere, which is jump in, jump out.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think what we've seen now, the past, I guess we can have we been back in the city, is that there's an enormous amount of snow out there, there's snow banks everywhere.
[SPEAKER_02]: So his environment is not the same as it used to be.
[SPEAKER_02]: So now in order for him to get like,
[SPEAKER_02]: enough speed to jump into the car.
[SPEAKER_02]: He has to go over all this slush and ice and snow when it's just gross.
[SPEAKER_02]: So once he starts to feel that, he just doesn't want to continue to get enough speed to jump into the car.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think with all the current snowfall and the way things are outside, it's not the way that he's used to it being.
[SPEAKER_02]: So his environment around here has changed.
[SPEAKER_02]: So since that since we've been back, he hasn't really jumped in because
[SPEAKER_04]: Even without the snow though, he still gets highly sensitive.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah, I mean, he'll definitely do that, especially if he knows we're doing somewhere.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's why when we plan our trips, he can't see us packing anything.
[SPEAKER_04]: He can't see everything say the same and then how they don't move.
[SPEAKER_02]: So what we usually, what we've been doing, we actually have to get him in the car as Bill will get him in the car because he'll jump in by himself and then in one of those come up stairs and pack some stuff for the for the trip and take it down to the car and leave.
[SPEAKER_02]: So.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's kind of where we are now, and the biggest issue for us, like Lisa mentioned to you, is the car situation where we have to get him in there to leave.
[SPEAKER_02]: And all the things you mentioned about, like the long leash, and just giving them some from the room to move.
[SPEAKER_02]: And given him the option to do so, I'm sure, I know he's jumped on this call late, but I'm sure Lisa, like she let you know, he's a very highly reactive dog, it's very sensitive to everything around him.
[SPEAKER_02]: where he's in the city, he's more than six feet away from us.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like walk around the streets in New York right now, especially with the snow.
[SPEAKER_02]: The sidewalks are very narrow.
[SPEAKER_02]: We have to make sure that people aren't coming.
[SPEAKER_02]: Other dogs aren't coming because he will react if they get too close.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now far away, he doesn't care.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like he'll see a dog and look at it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just watch a walk by.
[SPEAKER_02]: He'll see somebody else walk by.
[SPEAKER_02]: Somebody could walk right past us while we have him on leash and nothing will happen until they try to engage.
[SPEAKER_02]: So if somebody just randomly just says, hey, how you doing?
[SPEAKER_02]: It triggers some, and he flips out, and that's why we, I don't think we could be able to do that in New York City right now, especially with the snow and but the limited space that we have to do that longer lead Martin Gale collar because I don't think we have the space to kind of do that so that that's kind of where I get a little anxious about that is just I don't know if we be able to get from the opportunity to decide to jump in the car on his own we kind of have to be there right with him in New York City it's.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's been stressful, it never used to be like this.
[SPEAKER_02]: It got to the point where it's this.
[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, it's been very successful.
[SPEAKER_01]: This has given you a lot of exposure.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: that's kind of work.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And like I said, there's many ways to to peel this onion.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the other thing that I would do is give him a little bit more pressure to work with you.
[SPEAKER_00]: So again, right now, like you have to, I always like do a risk over risk risk reward assessment or it's like, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is causing obviously a tremendous amount of stress for you guys and it's costing money and so so a lot of times again I go into a situation with multiple different things like and that and again like dog training is very always it's like artistic where you're just like constantly like okay now we're gonna switch here we're gonna switch here we're gonna switch here we're gonna switch here I'm gonna try this so the other the other thing that I like to do if you don't feel like
[SPEAKER_00]: would be just to give him that pressure to see if he he moves forward, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's difficult.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's difficult if you're trying to get trying to hurt him over a snowbank and then into a car that it's going to be more of like a You know, that's more of like an Olympic Like jump like a like a like a strategic jump off of there.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah, and that's kind of how we use a market.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's where we've been.
[SPEAKER_02]: In fact, the past we can have is just too much snow.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not going anywhere.
[SPEAKER_04]: There's we have, we have market deal collar.
[SPEAKER_04]: Tell we actually.
[SPEAKER_02]: We've, we've seen them again before.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's probably in our basket.
[SPEAKER_02]: We have a lot of stuff in there.
[SPEAKER_02]: But we've had a market deal collar.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think we just are using it in our walks.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think we're just nervous, like without having that harness.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, it's like that security.
[SPEAKER_04]: But maybe we should have both.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: We kind of practice even on our terrace.
[SPEAKER_04]: We can practice market deal collar.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I, when the dog locks up, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I don't see if like, yeah, I got one over here actually.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to dog locks up, okay?
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is just a, this is a stainless steel Martin Gale.
[SPEAKER_00]: When a dog locks up and they don't want to move, like this Martin Gale, essentially like if you see this triangle, this is what a Martin Gale has, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So when he when he puts the brakes on with the harness you got no shot the only shot you got is dragging him and and I don't you know nobody likes doing that right yeah, yeah, and and I don't want you to either and and I've never had to to do that
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, you know, so I just posted a video on this to this dog, same thing, shut down and so here's what I suggest the Martin Gail works like this.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the leash is on here, the dog puts the brakes on and you face the other way.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like don't, don't give him what he wants.
[SPEAKER_00]: He wants you to, again, he's getting what he wants, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like the, the, the baby that's crying effect.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like,
[SPEAKER_00]: don't condition him that if he puts the brakes on we turn around we're frontal with them we're talking to him we're trying to convince him he's like cool this is all sweet but i'm not moving right doesn't doesn't do any good so a lot of times what i do is the leash is on here the dog pancakes i just keep moving i get to the leash and then i just i do one of these i just i have the martingale just come on and i'm not i'm not popping i'm not correcting
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm in and out giving the dog pressure right and a lot of times what and and again I can't remember time as didn't work most often times you're just going hey come on Your your momentum is moving forward your leash is going in and out It's not continual pressure because that's when you're just he doesn't care to get dragged.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's like I'll hang on like a sleigh ride.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't care
[SPEAKER_00]: So what you're doing is you're just kind of bunk, bunk, bunk, and you're almost every thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Almost every time, the dog just, you see the dog start to, like, untighten, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: They just start to loosen up and then they finally will, okay, fine, and then they will.
[SPEAKER_04]: You've got a chain martingale to it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think we like the cloth ones, which is where I'm scared, because there's no way that the chain one can like slip off, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, it just has to be sized properly.
[SPEAKER_00]: So again, like if this is on a dog and you can get back up for this too, you could, I mean, if you're worried about him slipping out, just use a slip leash.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the safest way to do this.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it does the same exact thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's impossible for the dog to slip out unless you try to, unless you, you know, actively try to.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the slip is going to be like, say for, and it's the same thing, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So again, the slip's on a dog, it's high in snug, right behind the dog's ears, the dog puts on the brakes, and we just pressure, pressure, pressure, pressure, and then the dog gives to it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now the slip,
[SPEAKER_00]: if they try to back out and get out of it, it just gets tighter on them.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's not the dog can't slip out of it, but the idea is to just relax and calm down and move through this, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So a lot of times here's what happens.
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, it's different for me, you know, obviously, because I worked with dogs in my whole life and I've seen a bunch of crazy shit.
[SPEAKER_00]: What I do is when a dog who's never had like real pressure before like any pressure I'm not talking about corrections.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just saying when the dog says I'm not doing this and they've never really had that pressure They can kind of like freak out and get all crazy and you just sit there and and really the attitude and the vibe is kind of like are you done yet?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like this isn't because you don't
[SPEAKER_00]: What they're trying to do is to make a big deal of like, this is, I got us, and then we usually give up and we stop.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're only okay, you okay, and then the dog's there and got you.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that would be the next step is,
[SPEAKER_00]: give the dog a little bit of pressure to make no word do like we have to do this in most oftentimes if you have a clear shot at the car the dog's going to put in the brakes you're going to apply a little bit of pressure and then the dog's going to move forward.
[SPEAKER_00]: Does that make sense?
[SPEAKER_04]: It does and we have used this lip so I think George for us to have to get past like the emotional impact of it because for me personally I know when I was using this lip lady and a training session
[SPEAKER_04]: It broke my heart a bit because Winston was so confused, you know, but I'm like
[SPEAKER_04]: not about us.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's about making sure, well, it's about us.
[SPEAKER_04]: But like, yeah, that's what we have to use them before George.
[SPEAKER_04]: The very short time.
[SPEAKER_04]: I just and I stopped.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And Lisa, Lisa, I always like to, I'm looking for that video to show you really quick.
[SPEAKER_00]: Lisa, I always like to remind people, you know, because I, I just, I, I talked to so many different people and I just like to remind people like, you're, you know, you're in this position for a reason, you know,
[SPEAKER_00]: If all of the other rainbows and butterflies of like, you know, we're just going to reward you to death worked, we wouldn't be having this conversation, you know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_00]: So I totally agree with what you're saying.
[SPEAKER_00]: And listen, I have, you know, my job, literally like how I keep bills, my, my lights on and food on my table is to help dog owners, you know, understand.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if I didn't have progress with dogs, I, you know, wouldn't be able to
[SPEAKER_00]: And my point is, I do so much to try to figure out what works best, what's effective, what's ineffective, and I'm constantly re-sharpening my tools, and we're looking at stuff, methods, tools, exercises, and the amount of almost every single, I can't find that video, but every single client that I've worked with always starts off with, well, we did positive reinforcement only, and it's like,
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, I use my training is 99% positive reinforcement based.
[SPEAKER_00]: I am rewarding the dog almost all the time, but I also the moment in your case similar, because I work with a lot of these dogs too, the moment my dog goes, you know what?
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to try to bite this person or scare this person or react to this person or just lunge.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I completely unwarranted at this person.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like the last thing I'm going to do is Is enable my dog to you know, you know, you know, not help them.
[SPEAKER_00]: So anyway, so I totally understand what you're saying and I always tell people I want you to do with whatever you're comfortable with
[SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, part of my position is to just explain to you what works and what doesn't.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that pressure there, you know, from the slip is like the slip leash or even the Martin Gale is massive.
[SPEAKER_00]: Especially like Winston's not a small dog.
[SPEAKER_04]: So he's strong.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: But that's him.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: But it seemed like two years ago.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so he's not, you know, he's a dog that like, look, you guys are in a situation where you're stressed and it's, you're at a point where you're like, this is, this is creating, um, stress in our lives and we want to get better, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: And so yeah, but I think there's two burning questions that I haven't also just like, like, we are aware that Upstate living is better for him, but it just doesn't work with our lifestyle, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: So like,
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm grateful it can be in between, but he will have to get used to both environments.
[SPEAKER_04]: Eventually, maybe we'll be upset, say, full time, but they're slow going to be that, you know, commuting here, they're travel, so we are aware that he's better fit upstate for more space, time, energy, et cetera.
[SPEAKER_04]: For me, my two quick questions and I don't know if you have any questions too, but like, have you experience this with other clients as well, like,
[SPEAKER_04]: I know when Winston does get really upset.
[SPEAKER_04]: He will severely get in his back and he will growl.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like no one shows his teeth and I'm like, what the fuck?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like he just gets so set in his way.
[SPEAKER_04]: And he's so upset, obviously.
[SPEAKER_04]: So that's one.
[SPEAKER_04]: I was like, oh my dog, I'm gonna tell them, I'm like, I know I'm gonna tell them, but clearly I'm doing something that's making him upset.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then the time that he got out of the harness and I had to hold him down and that's a punta car when he was kind of like, not biting me, but like scratching me with his teeth.
[SPEAKER_04]: Some people are like, that's an absolute no, no.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I obviously respect that and they're saying that.
[SPEAKER_04]: But have you seen that before?
[SPEAKER_04]: And I know that's worrisome.
[SPEAKER_04]: I know George, you've been a bit worried too when he's growl that you.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's just because he's scared.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I'm like, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Can you give me, can you give me an exact example?
[SPEAKER_00]: So I can get the full context.
[SPEAKER_04]: So it's usually when we're getting, it's most of the time, actually every time about going in the car.
[SPEAKER_04]: And this is when he would see our suitcases and stuff like that.
[SPEAKER_04]: So he will shut down, he'll get in his back, you know, like this, and like, when some we have to go, and then I'll kind of like push him up, try to build and then he flips out.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that's when he like, really grouse, like he is trying to like intimidate me.
[SPEAKER_04]: The won't bite at that moment, but that's like, I know he's warning me and I get that.
[SPEAKER_04]: He has been once before, not me.
[SPEAKER_04]: This was about two years or two.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was an instant cart driver that came out of nowhere.
[SPEAKER_04]: And he just did, he did break skin.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that was a couple of years ago, but outside of that, I don't think you would ever bite us, but I'm just wondering if you've experienced that with other clients to have a dog that obviously is complete trust with each other.
[SPEAKER_04]: And the way he responds to us sometimes a little bit scary.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I see it regularly.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's just, you know, it makes sense to me, especially from from a, I mean, we don't like it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's, it's inappropriate.
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't want to see it.
[SPEAKER_00]: We want to think it rid of.
[SPEAKER_00]: But to me, when a dog, like that, and that's what I'm trying to avoid.
[SPEAKER_00]: So here's the caveat here.
[SPEAKER_00]: And here's kind of like the, the situation.
[SPEAKER_00]: Interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: Interesting enough.
[SPEAKER_00]: When you're, so I wanted to back up a little bit when we were talking about giving the dog
[SPEAKER_00]: Giving a dog pressure with a collar is much safer to do than what you're doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because you're basically saying, hey, I'm going to annoy you and tell you, I'm going to make this uncomfortable until you move forward.
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, I always tell people, I want the dog to make the decision to go, okay, fine, I'll do it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you're going to have to be patient with that.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I really feel like that's going to be helpful for you.
[SPEAKER_00]: But now what you're talking about is instead of giving the dog the pressure or even correcting a dog for stopping of like no We have to go now You physically are fighting with your dog creating more stress more frustration and potentially you know more more dangerous situation
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I want you to, and it's the same thing that when we talk about the corrections when the dog is reacting and doing things on the leash towards people, I want you to think about the the the risk over that, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So, oh well, and and I know that you're not, you know, saying no, I'm just saying when you're brain immediately goes into like, I'm uncomfortable and give me dog that much pressure if they want to do something else, blah, blah.
[SPEAKER_00]: But now you have to look at how much pressure you're giving your dog physically.
[SPEAKER_00]: to a point where your dog is snapping back at you when you could have just sat there with the lesion work through it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it is common.
[SPEAKER_00]: Any dog that gets into fight or flight essentially, and if they physically like can't leave, they're going to show the two things dogs can do to say, I'm really upset and your pissing me off is to growl and to show their teeth.
[SPEAKER_00]: They are actively saying like CDs.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to use these soon if you don't back up, it's like a rattlesnake rattling, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a warning.
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, like I always tell people, I would much rather have a dog growl than just bite, because at least, you know, there's communication, your dogs being clear, your dogs letting you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not saying it's appropriate or anything, but I would much rather you do something less forceful to try to have the dog make the decision.
[SPEAKER_00]: physically fighting with the dog because that's where it gets dangerous because it's still in it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know it's your dog and ship, but it's like it's still an animal Like you always like, you know, it's like the animals like I'm not gonna get in there and then you're physically like pinning the animal down and like forcing them in and they're just like fighting you like they can't
[SPEAKER_00]: All they can do is use their teeth, essentially, and you know, like you said, like dogs, you know, dogs can really hurt you, like really, really bad.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so like if they're putting their teeth on you, but not trying to bite you, I mean, it's a decision they're making, like they're actively being like, I'm not going to hurt you, but I need to let you know that this is uncomfortable.
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, it's such like a, you know, it's a conundrum for people where as a trainer who has, you know, worked with this so many different times.
[SPEAKER_00]: And my head, I'm like adding a little bit of leash pressure to like eliminate that friction and that frustration and that shut down versus like, you know,
[SPEAKER_00]: So, to answer your question, absolutely, it's normal.
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't surprise me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, Tom, my dog shuts down.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hate's getting into the car.
[SPEAKER_00]: If I have to pick my dog up and physically force them into the car, chest to chest, or chest to back, they get pissed and snarling and shitty with me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Does that make sense?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it does.
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't surprise me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: not appropriate.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not making a big excuses.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, oh, yeah, you should let that happen.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just saying, you know, that, that, yeah, it makes sense to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: And anytime something with the dog, especially for behavior, a lot of dog training, like, you know, the obedient stuff makes more sense.
[SPEAKER_00]: But anytime the behavior doesn't make sense is where there could be issues.
[SPEAKER_00]: like real issues, neurological or genetic or something, but that to me makes perfect sense, honestly.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I would, again, personally, be, again, things that I would be doing right now if you were right in front of me.
[SPEAKER_00]: is I would be putting this favorite food like steak chicken into a bowl and kind of walking around going outside doing the same thing and then just putting the bowl into the car and if he says no I'd be I'd be jumping in the car and be it come on and see if you'll get and I know you've probably tried all this stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just things that I would do open up both sides of the car and then get on the other side have if you guys are both together get on the other side and see if the dog will come in
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, what kind of car is he jumping into it's a it's a Nissan rogue.
[SPEAKER_04]: So it's not it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's an SUV.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, because sometimes two like my personal dog is she's 10 now and she's gotten kind of anxious jumping into the car because she's not as limber as she used to be.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, so she's actually like jumped up into the car and hasn't had that um, like she used to and she was a young dog and she's like smashed the seat a couple times.
[SPEAKER_00]: So even recently, I brought her to my facility yesterday and it opened the door and I
[SPEAKER_00]: She's like pacing and she's like, oh, shit.
[SPEAKER_00]: I gotta do this thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I just pick her up now, but I would just say, again, I've I've done this a couple different times where I've been stumped where I'm like All the things I'm saying hasn't worked and I've brought out steps and I've I've done steps.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've done ramps and
[SPEAKER_00]: I've also, I've also just interesting enough, dogs are just really, they're strange animals sometimes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes what I'll do is I'll do all the things that you've already tried but I'll try to do it in the front seat.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'll ask the dog to get into the front seat instead of the back.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll ask the dog to get into the trunk instead of the back.
[SPEAKER_04]: The trunk we haven't done yet.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I try to do like, yeah, I try to do like all these different things and if there's something in your home that you can do like if it's ramps or stairs or whatever just to make it easier on the dog like you don't up to your bed or up to the couch like get the dog comfortable with going up this thing right and then what I'll do is I'll practice and I'll just have a both I'll do the same picture I'll have a bowl of food and I'll say get up on the couch get up on the bed, you know up up up up and I'll just say this and then I'll go through
[SPEAKER_00]: Yay, bruh, yay, bruh, yay, and then I go out to the car and I'm like, up and they and shit you not, owners are like, you know, holy crap.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't believe that work and they just go bruh, because they just have this like picture in their head.
[SPEAKER_00]: So just, you know, doing things like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would be shocked.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I just really think that you guys can break through.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would really like to see videos of it too.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, after this, if you have my email, just send me what you're doing, because it's just something I really need to see if that makes sense.
[SPEAKER_00]: It would be so much easier for me to be like, oh, this is like little things.
[SPEAKER_00]: But does that, do you feel good about that?
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we definitely said this.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the react.
[SPEAKER_00]: You want to jump into the reactivity stuff on the leash?
[SPEAKER_00]: Or what do you want to?
[SPEAKER_04]: Um, yeah, well, I know we're kind of getting close to time too.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I think I have a question about medication, but maybe I can probably put it in, but George, did you have any immediate question right now or any comment?
[SPEAKER_02]: Be sure.
[SPEAKER_04]: I know.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we're just talking pretty much about
[SPEAKER_02]: the car situation and we're got some, we're going to try some stuff out and definitely try the Martin Gale and see if we'll go from there.
[SPEAKER_04]: And what should you do a metal martingale or other chain one, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: We shouldn't do like the cloth one.
[SPEAKER_00]: The cloth one's fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just had that laying around because this was my everyday color for my dog and it's stainless steel.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like 30 years.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I see this.
[SPEAKER_04]: It is less, quite late to it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is.
[SPEAKER_00]: But your cloth isn't going to, it's not like it's not going to break or anything.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just, I like the metal because my dog was just like, you know, all, you know, I didn't have to worry about it rusting or getting stinky or anything.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just stainless steel metal is nice.
[SPEAKER_04]: So it's a medication part.
[SPEAKER_04]: So the reconcile, we are tempted eventually one day, but think we're a bit more stable, people are in one place for a majority of the time, take them off-wrecking-style.
[SPEAKER_04]: I just don't, and we are doing a little bit of CBD as well.
[SPEAKER_04]: Kind of back at that again a little bit.
[SPEAKER_04]: Colorado, it's, it's good shit.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't, I just don't know if it's really working, but like, for example, I'm like, do we give him half a trasodone, you know?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, we have to give him a trasodone and a half and go to the vet and we muzzle him and all those things.
[SPEAKER_04]: have you worked with clients at our medication and like, is there anything else that's helpful?
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, we also don't want to do medication at all period, but like, I just wonder if you've experienced with things that actually are helpful.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have absolutely
[SPEAKER_00]: So, I'll first say this, that medication for dogs is absolutely like a game changer as it is for people.
[SPEAKER_00]: However, anytime I hear somebody say that they work with behaviors, I know that the dog is going to have onboarded meds, because just to give you context, like typically, again, this is just generally, this isn't everybody.
[SPEAKER_00]: But typically, from my experience, a behaviorist job is like when you bring your dog to a behaviorist or even, I've even seen them just send videos in, their job is to diagnose the actual behavior right, the symptoms, your dog is anxious, your dog is reactive, your dog is nervous, your dog is stressed, your dog is aggressive, and their job typically isn't to actually train the dog to diagnose the dog and then prescribe the dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's not typically to then put in training protocols, you know, a good behaviors typically we'll talk about exercise and things like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: But typically it's going to be yep, your dog is anxious and clinically this this medication here is to decrease the anxiousness, okay?
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, just from a training standpoint, it's a...
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't love that because the dog owner, you, goes to a behaviorist and some of these behaviors have PhDs and their doctors and they have an immense amount of experience clinically with dogs, you know, research, they don't train a lot of dogs, they're not dog trainers, but I think that the dog owner typically just assumes like this is the top gear dog trainer when the reality is is they're not dog trainers at all.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're job mainly is to diagnose what your dog is exhibiting behaviorally and then treat.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the treatment typically, which is why before you even said it, I said your dog is on medication and I'm not saying your dog shouldn't be on medication.
[SPEAKER_00]: I haven't seen your dog, I haven't met your dog, but that's just like my first instinct is medication is given out to almost every single dog with the tiniest bit of behavioral issues that see a behaviorist.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, and just like with people, I personally think that dogs and even adolescent kids are just over-medicated.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think they just don't know what they don't know what to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're like, here are some pills for that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we, we have of course no, like taking, you know, Tylenol when we have a headache, doesn't necessarily take away the reason why the headache happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, so that's just my little spiel on on medication.
[SPEAKER_04]: Probably a whole other conversation.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, with me.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: But in my experience, like, the way that I would look at this situation would be this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I have done this so many times with clients, Tom, I have a dog that has is doing something behavior that I don't like.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have a dog that is lunging, reacting, barking, spinning,
[SPEAKER_00]: doing all the things that don't like on the leash.
[SPEAKER_00]: At no point in time, if we ever corrected the dog for the behavior.
[SPEAKER_00]: At no point in time, if we ever told the dog specifically what they're doing is inappropriate and try to actually assert ourselves at that very moment to tell the dog that this isn't appropriate and we don't want to see this.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if we have never done that, then of course the behavior is not only going to not go away because it created it started for a reason, but it actually could compound and get worse because a dog who starts to react on the leash and there's many reasons.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the three reasons why dogs are reactive on the leash first is fear second in this no particular order.
[SPEAKER_00]: Second is going to be like genetic disposition.
[SPEAKER_00]: So getting a gigantic protective dog and then all of a sudden they're protective and reactive and then the third is just overstimulated.
[SPEAKER_00]: So dogs who go to daycare and they see another dog and they're just not used to being held back and they're just going on.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're going crazy and they're friendly and they play and it's great, but it's still leash reactivity It's still pain in the ass.
[SPEAKER_00]: So but but regardless of that is if we have a dog that's exhibiting these behaviors And we've never punished the dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: We've never corrected the dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: We've never held the dog accountable for the thing We're trying to get rid of
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we all we do is we say when the problem approaches, when the problem gets close, we avoid, and then on top of that we medicate.
[SPEAKER_00]: So in my opinion, with the medication, it's not going, it's not tackling the real issue here.
[SPEAKER_00]: The real issue could be, again, your relationship, it could be fear.
[SPEAKER_00]: It could be I don't know what else to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have a video pinned on my Instagram right now because it was like the craziest not the craziest But it was the saddest case.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've seen this Australian Shepherd came in with I think it was on seven different daily medications and Again, they went through the same exact thing you did.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, they tried and again To be clear.
[SPEAKER_00]: I use positive reinforcement
[SPEAKER_00]: However, I do understand that dogs are animals and in order for them to really understand clearly the things that we don't want them to do We have to correct the moment that they do that thing just like a kid trying to take a knife out of the thing I'm not over here saying hey here's crackers instead.
[SPEAKER_00]: I stop them.
[SPEAKER_00]: I grab them.
[SPEAKER_00]: I take the knife out I say don't do that again And we try to really teach them like bad good bad good All stray and shepherd came in seven different medication came in a big bag like a whole bag like a ball bag
[SPEAKER_00]: I corrected the dog twice and the dog didn't react again ever.
[SPEAKER_04]: If this Marta stalks out there, isn't that like, but they're known like... A barter call, is it typically taken care of?
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, a barter call is taken care of.
[SPEAKER_00]: They typically take that rain, but I'll try and check whether it's a very, very smart too.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I would just say like my gut check on medication is to say you haven't really addressed the problem.
[SPEAKER_00]: You've been suppressing the problem.
[SPEAKER_00]: So for me to answer rather the dog, it is good on medication or not, is really irrelevant because I think once you start really addressing the problem and like, you know, really looking at the issue, like, hey, like, I want you to think of like that thing that you've just stuck under your bed forever where you're like, you're just kind of avoiding.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like that email that sits in your inbox because you just don't know what to say or don't want to say anything.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just going to be there and it's going to, it's just going to start to weigh on you.
[SPEAKER_00]: So personally for me, I would say, I would love to see, you know, what would happen if you actually corrected the dog for the behavior you don't want.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's called positive punishment.
[SPEAKER_00]: So positive reinforcement is to add something to the equation to help the behavior happen again.
[SPEAKER_00]: Dog sits when we say, sit, we give him good boy, good girl, we give him peace of food.
[SPEAKER_00]: Great.
[SPEAKER_00]: Positive punishment is the moment the dog doesn't think we don't like.
[SPEAKER_00]: We then correct and say we don't want you to do that though.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's where you have that really nice clarity with the dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: But you've got to think about it right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: If the dog is living at the end of the leash, making decisions every day, instead of taking direction, confidence gets ruined, security gets ruined, relationships can can can fault because the dog is is in
[SPEAKER_00]: And what really compounds this and makes reactive dogs more reactive is if you get an insecure dog that really doesn't know what to do And they're like, hey, I love you guys But I'm gonna handle this because this guy just said good morning and you got to think about it right now He's sitting at the end of the harness doing this and all you're doing is you're just you're kind of just putting them back in the house and you're like We got to go where for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would be like what are you doing correction stop?
[SPEAKER_00]: The dog stops reacting good and I would pay the dog because most often times dogs who are reactive
[SPEAKER_00]: are in that fear stage like they're in that fear umbrella where they don't not like they don't not like people They just don't know how to handle situations with people right so so you know you're you're outside with your dog and They don't say anything to your dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: They walk by your good But then somebody says you know, it's the same thing with people like people who are insecure don't they they are kind of like
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, they really don't want, they don't want, they don't want any type of conflict.
[SPEAKER_00]: They don't want any type of direct, like, hey, good morning, like eye contact, they're very and dogs who are insecure can lead into this reaction because they're like, get out of here.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if the dog has never been corrected after this long, it, you know, it's basically enabled the dog
[SPEAKER_04]: You'll quit questions when she's correct with the martingale collar.
[SPEAKER_04]: So you mean, let's just say whatever, is it like this light, it's like the slight tongue, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: That's what you're talking about.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's a pop, it's a pop on the collar, and you know, the the equipment that you use, the, excuse me, the collar that you use is really kind of predicated off of like the size of the dog, the sensitivity of the dog, like I'll show you, this is that dog I was talking about.
[SPEAKER_00]: So super reactive Australian Shepherd, like, I mean, you can see the dog flipping around on the road and they deal with it.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's what I'm trying to do right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then look, I corrected the dog once.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we were able to kind of go through through life.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was trying to show you that correction, but it doesn't really show you.
[SPEAKER_00]: But anyway, so the correction that you're going to give, you know, because people always ask that, like, what correction should I get, what tool should I use?
[SPEAKER_00]: There's kind of a ladder system with it, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Whatever, and I've gone through this, I've gone up, I've gone down.
[SPEAKER_00]: When you have like an older adult larger dog, you have to go out and you use your slip, you use your Martin Gail, and you see what works, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: There's different collars that do different things, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: There's vibrate collars that vibrate like you're cell phone.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's prong colors, there's plastic pinch colors, there's Martin Gow colors, there's slip leashes, there's slip colors, there's all these different tools out there to make your communication better with your dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I can tell you that if you're strapping in on a harness that was invented for dogs to pull and disengage from their owners for searching rescue, to communicate to them that they're doing something wrong, you were unfortunately going to be stuck there for a very long time.
[SPEAKER_00]: and I know that you think six years old is that worry some or is it it's not it's harder it's it's harder but I mean it's like the dog doesn't know any different like hit his whole brain you know for his whole life is just been I see something I don't know I see something I'm scared of a see something I'm afraid of I react
[SPEAKER_00]: And to your point, like before, it's the same template in the same format when you're like, I don't really, I feel uncomfortable using a slip to get my dog to do this, but yet, I'm tackling my dog into the car and almost getting bit.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the same exact thing when your dog is reacting, cortisol is shooting through the roof, they're stressed, they can't breathe, all of their muscles are tightening up, they get this enormous amount of stress popping off, of course, you're stressed.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now you have to go home, it's your heart rate changes,
[SPEAKER_00]: everything changes where you give the dog the correction and boom.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like it could be day and night.
[SPEAKER_04]: So we recommend that we, so we're going to do this like tonight.
[SPEAKER_04]: So George, make sure you check to see if we have Martin give a call or if not we got to pick up one.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like starting an office just wearing it around the house, too.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that like, Martin go?
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the Martin goes a good everyday collar.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it's a good like in the house, too.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like part met in, just like hanging out and.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, one thing, one thing I would highly suggest for you because again, there's external problems that we're dealing with which would be the reaction, the dog barking, okay?
[SPEAKER_00]: But the, the actual like overall arching thing right here is mostly your relationship.
[SPEAKER_00]: So my suggestion, my suggestion right now,
[SPEAKER_00]: Like for an example, you put his harness on, you go towards the front door or you go towards the door or whatever he likes, whatever threshold he likes, you go up towards that door and you go to walk through that door.
[SPEAKER_00]: If he goes without you or without you saying break or whatever, right now the only thing you can do is pull him back, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So, or for an example, you take his favorite ball, you take his favorite toy, you take his favorite treat, you tell him to sit, you throw it, he gets up.
[SPEAKER_00]: The only thing you could do right now is just ask them to sit again.
[SPEAKER_00]: So relationship wise, worst case scenario, if this dog wants to do something that you don't want to do is you're just going to ask them over and over again.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the consequences of doing something against what you asked them to do are not existent, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So when you are put, and I don't know what you do for work, but if you have any type of managerial experience,
[SPEAKER_00]: anything that you're responsible for, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I have 20 something employees, and if I told them, and did you hear it eight, and they all showed up at nine, 10, and 11, and I never did anything about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: That is going to bubble up in other places, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, hey, I need you to do this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, Tom doesn't care about this at all.
[SPEAKER_00]: I never getting trouble for this, I never get written up for this, I never get talked to about this.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I want you to, in the home, start what I, there's something that I did a course on, it's called the Kickstarter course, I would recommend.
[SPEAKER_00]: It basically teaches dogs and owners how to start implicating thresholds to reset your relationship.
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, it's as simple as you tell in your dog to sit, Winston sit, he goes, Oh, yeah, I like sitting.
[SPEAKER_00]: Where's my food?
[SPEAKER_00]: You can pay him.
[SPEAKER_00]: He sits, typically dogs who are trained on harnesses.
[SPEAKER_00]: Typically, the dog will get up within 20 to 30 seconds or even less.
[SPEAKER_00]: They pop back up and they're like, hey, can we do this whole thing again?
[SPEAKER_00]: And then our correction is to tell the dog to sit again.
[SPEAKER_00]: They sit and they get paid.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we actually teach the dog to go through this cycle of misbehaving to then get rewarded again because we're so focused on food.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so we don't care about that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like with when Sim will put the fuck in the delicious, the most delicious food.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'll look at the room and I'll be out of the room for like a few minutes and he'll be that spot which is kind of crazy that's good to say okay, so yeah, so yeah, he does let it just, let's see outside world.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so yeah, I would just say like, you know, that the 10 second run down is you have a dog that's doing so I mean this is this is I mean this might sound like crazy to you, but I mean this is what I feel I have a dog that's doing something
[SPEAKER_00]: And we, it's like the one, yeah, guard dog's perfect.
[SPEAKER_00]: We love our dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: But this is like the thing that we can't get rid of.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm just sitting there going like, you've never told him it was wrong ever.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like a no point in time has he been like, what did I do?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I'm I'm sure you've yelled and you screamed and you pulled them back.
[SPEAKER_00]: But dogs are when they get it, their savages like they don't care about that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like they get into this red zone and they're and they just go off the
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so I can my recommendation for you is I won't if you have a time and you like extra curriculum on my YouTube channel, this is free.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a video that I did on dog training tools.
[SPEAKER_00]: Where I go through the slip the Martin Gale I go through all of those things and you don't have to go through the whole list But it might be really helpful for you to know like, oh, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's how you put it on.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's where you know that's how it's fit So if you go on to my my YouTube channel and type in I Think it's just like dog training equipment
[SPEAKER_00]: Or dog training tools rather you can find I'm holding up like I have like a like a bag of like treats in my in my mouth It's called there and it's all all dog training tools and went to use them So it's a 25 minute video it literally goes over every tool that I could ever think of using for a dog and why there's why they're used and why you shouldn't use them so I think that'll give you more confidence in the tools
[SPEAKER_00]: my reactivity course would be super helpful as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, maybe going out and trying all this stuff and then reporting back to me maybe hopping on another call just to see what's up would be okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_04]: This was amazing and very generous with your time.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_04]: People are going to give this a try and give it a go.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I'd love to send you a video too, just so you can see, but I know all those are different, but
[SPEAKER_04]: I think this will hopefully work.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it'll be helpful.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is just an hour conversation.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so there's so much work to be done.
[SPEAKER_00]: So stay positive and just keep working and go through my free stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's a bunch of other trainers that are great too.
[SPEAKER_00]: And report back.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if we have to do this again, I think we can really dial in.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you send me videos of what you're doing, then I can look at it exactly and say what I think, instead of just speculating.
[SPEAKER_04]: No, I really appreciate that.
[SPEAKER_04]: All right, we'll time and enjoy the rest of your day and we'll be in close touch.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay guys, good luck at it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, you're welcome.
[SPEAKER_00]: Nice to meet you, good luck.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, bye.
[SPEAKER_00]: Bye.