WEBVTT 00:02.393 --> 00:05.276 [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to Housewives of True Crime. 00:05.656 --> 00:14.585 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm Tabitha, your True Crime Housewife, and I'm bringing you real crimes, real twists, and searching for real justice every week. 00:14.605 --> 00:21.772 [SPEAKER_00]: I've got a brand new disco biscuit riding shotgun, sometimes a fan, sometimes a friend, but someone always fabulous. 00:22.312 --> 00:29.599 [SPEAKER_00]: So grab whatever you're drinking these days, press play, and let's talk crime in the Carpool line. 00:33.038 --> 00:42.829 [SPEAKER_01]: Hands up, hands up and chew on the crab Hands up, hands up and chew on the crab 00:43.450 --> 00:48.435 [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome, I'm a housewives of true crime bonus time here. 00:48.455 --> 00:58.285 [SPEAKER_00]: I am with my, I want to actually call you my BFF now, because we've known each other long enough, Tom, that I feel like you're one of my besties. 00:58.825 --> 01:07.694 [SPEAKER_00]: And so none other than Tom Smith, you guys remember him, he's retired and my PD, and just the coolest guy on the planet. 01:07.754 --> 01:08.395 [SPEAKER_00]: So welcome. 01:08.375 --> 01:10.799 [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you so much and I'll take the BFF for sure. 01:10.819 --> 01:11.340 [SPEAKER_03]: 100%. 01:12.583 --> 01:13.404 [SPEAKER_03]: 100%. 01:13.825 --> 01:28.071 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm so thrilled that Tom is here because he's a real busy guy now on Nancy Grace and all these like these big time TV shows and so to give me a little of piece of your time is really, it gets my heart. 01:28.051 --> 01:34.611 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, but always remember where it started and who it started with and all that and they get they get first crack. 01:34.631 --> 01:36.917 [SPEAKER_03]: So that's why you text me. 01:36.958 --> 01:37.860 [SPEAKER_03]: Hey, we got to do this. 01:38.161 --> 01:38.442 [SPEAKER_03]: Okay. 01:38.462 --> 01:39.124 [SPEAKER_03]: Let's go. 01:39.374 --> 01:39.795 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 01:40.355 --> 01:40.656 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 01:40.696 --> 01:50.188 [SPEAKER_00]: So we are talking about the case that I just did on Monday about JJ Alaska's and his wrongful conviction. 01:50.809 --> 02:03.745 [SPEAKER_00]: And I thought what better person to bring on the Tom because Tom was in New York, when this case was going down, not necessarily that you were a part of it, but you were in the office, 02:03.725 --> 02:04.727 [SPEAKER_00]: or offices. 02:04.967 --> 02:06.229 [SPEAKER_00]: You were a detective at the time. 02:06.309 --> 02:08.553 [SPEAKER_00]: And so we haven't even spoke about this. 02:08.633 --> 02:10.977 [SPEAKER_00]: I just kind of was like, hey, Tom, let's talk about it. 02:11.077 --> 02:17.287 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's see what you knew, who you knew, how you knew, and what was going down and why this could have happened. 02:17.648 --> 02:22.155 [SPEAKER_00]: And so what is your, what was your first initial? 02:22.270 --> 02:23.813 [SPEAKER_00]: when I brought his name up. 02:23.893 --> 02:26.599 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, you know, you got to remember that time. 02:26.639 --> 02:43.114 [SPEAKER_03]: We were, we were so busy in the city, you know, and it was case half the case, half the case, and you know, regardless of where you were, but the one, you know, that that stands out, you always get an off duty cop was involved in this or retired cop, you know, whatever it might have been. 02:43.094 --> 02:45.865 [SPEAKER_03]: remember the NYPD whether retired active or not. 02:46.407 --> 02:52.530 [SPEAKER_03]: And those are the ones you always kind of pay attention to and listen to and I remember when it happened and 02:52.915 --> 03:00.465 [SPEAKER_03]: the robbery part of it, you know, where he was working, okay, you know, it is what it is, you're not part of the NYPD anymore. 03:00.566 --> 03:02.508 [SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, that is what it is. 03:02.548 --> 03:07.034 [SPEAKER_03]: It's still someone's life who was part of our job and part of the department. 03:07.074 --> 03:13.303 [SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, there's a little bit emphasis on it instead of 03:13.283 --> 03:31.950 [SPEAKER_03]: four guys working on it eight guys work on it instead of 10 guys working on it 15 guys work on so you know the resources that are available out there always put forward when you know it's part of your family whether they are you know presently or retired right and did you know him personally by any chance 03:32.369 --> 03:34.151 [SPEAKER_03]: No, no, not at all. 03:34.171 --> 03:35.653 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I mean, the department is huge. 03:35.713 --> 03:38.536 [SPEAKER_00]: So I can't handle it. 03:38.556 --> 03:38.937 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, a little bit. 03:38.957 --> 03:43.242 [SPEAKER_00]: And in the 90s, was the, I mean, crime was at its peak, right? 03:43.362 --> 03:51.953 [SPEAKER_00]: And New York and and he was kind of in not to victim shame at all, but he was also breaking the law at the time, right? 03:52.013 --> 03:59.001 [SPEAKER_00]: He's running this gambling center, which I can imagine, brings in some shady, 04:00.280 --> 04:02.163 [SPEAKER_00]: playing a tell. 04:02.263 --> 04:05.267 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's what I mean, you know, it is what it is. 04:05.327 --> 04:11.336 [SPEAKER_03]: You can't, you can't reverse time or take away the fact of what it was, you know, but it still someone's life. 04:11.636 --> 04:17.966 [SPEAKER_03]: And regardless whether it's part of the NYPD or not, you know, it's going to be investigated as a horrible crime on the side. 04:18.026 --> 04:21.090 [SPEAKER_03]: So all the resources are going to be put into it anyway. 04:21.070 --> 04:32.064 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, the circumstances of why he was there or why would you put yourself in that kind of situation, especially like you said, in the 90s, where New York was just at a control. 04:32.224 --> 04:35.849 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, this was a homicide, but it started off as a robbery. 04:36.490 --> 04:43.418 [SPEAKER_03]: And in the 90s, we were averaging 110 to 115,000 robberies in New York City a year. 04:44.039 --> 04:44.800 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, think about that. 04:45.121 --> 04:50.908 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, so that's what there's no way you can even actually like try to 04:51.817 --> 04:52.698 [SPEAKER_00]: get to all of those. 04:52.758 --> 04:55.140 [SPEAKER_00]: There's just, like, impossible. 04:55.160 --> 05:00.305 [SPEAKER_03]: And some are, you know, some are open and somewhere, you know, robberies that happen and the rest got made right away. 05:00.325 --> 05:04.349 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, some got investigated over a period of time and then a rest were me. 05:04.389 --> 05:07.772 [SPEAKER_03]: But that's what, that's what the robberies were like in New York City. 05:07.912 --> 05:15.779 [SPEAKER_03]: And a lot of it was fueled by drugs, you know, people, addicts, committing crimes to feed their habit. 05:16.160 --> 05:19.663 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, so that's why you had so many 05:19.643 --> 05:30.445 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, what you would do to fuel your drug habit was robberies, robberies and burglars, you know, so that's why they were always through the roof because it was just a way of funding their habit. 05:31.126 --> 05:34.733 [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, when you have places like this, 05:35.557 --> 05:51.575 [SPEAKER_03]: whether you're an addict or you're a professional career criminal, spots like that have money and they know that in a security is going to be low and there may not be a lot of people in there at the time and they understand that. 05:51.595 --> 05:57.982 [SPEAKER_03]: And when you're in a neighborhood, the neighborhood guys know we're all the money is whether it's legit or not. 05:58.843 --> 06:03.268 [SPEAKER_03]: They're always going to know where a quick hit can be in the event that happens. 06:03.890 --> 06:04.811 [SPEAKER_00]: yeah, that's scary. 06:05.653 --> 06:13.785 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so we get this robbery and immediately people see the robbers, right? 06:14.005 --> 06:18.111 [SPEAKER_00]: I kind of think they didn't, they weren't planning on killing anybody. 06:19.072 --> 06:20.434 [SPEAKER_03]: Probably not. 06:20.494 --> 06:21.015 [SPEAKER_03]: Probably not. 06:21.035 --> 06:25.662 [SPEAKER_03]: They usually, that's not, you're not doing a robbery. 06:25.642 --> 06:27.247 [SPEAKER_03]: to commit a murder. 06:27.487 --> 06:29.433 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it's just not, they don't line up. 06:29.995 --> 06:37.476 [SPEAKER_03]: But like you said, violence tends to get out of control and just spin in a direction that a lot of times that does happen. 06:37.998 --> 06:38.239 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 06:38.319 --> 06:38.740 [SPEAKER_00]: So. 06:40.559 --> 06:45.427 [SPEAKER_00]: Somebody dies immediately the police or like it's a fallen officer. 06:45.447 --> 06:46.629 [SPEAKER_00]: So we're on it. 06:47.350 --> 06:52.939 [SPEAKER_00]: We take eyewitness statements, which everybody comes back and says it's a light skin. 06:52.959 --> 06:58.248 [SPEAKER_00]: The shooter was a light skinned African American with braids. 06:59.290 --> 07:02.515 [SPEAKER_00]: The accomplice was a dark skinned African American. 07:03.897 --> 07:07.343 [SPEAKER_00]: And so we already know what we're looking for. 07:08.369 --> 07:17.220 [SPEAKER_00]: Then, all of a sudden, somebody's given a book of criminals to look through. 07:17.240 --> 07:18.742 [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh. 07:18.802 --> 07:19.383 [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of shots. 07:19.703 --> 07:20.905 [SPEAKER_03]: A lot of shots. 07:20.925 --> 07:21.165 [SPEAKER_00]: Yep. 07:21.185 --> 07:24.890 [SPEAKER_00]: And he gets 1,800 mug shots to go through. 07:24.930 --> 07:27.373 [SPEAKER_00]: Which, are you from, have you ever done that? 07:27.473 --> 07:34.162 [SPEAKER_00]: Is that, was that something that you did back in the day or, or, and has it gotten to be less now than 1,800? 07:34.182 --> 07:36.705 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I feel like your brain will just kind of, 07:36.854 --> 07:43.322 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, well, you're going to put the detective squad used to have mug books before technology. 07:43.342 --> 07:45.425 [SPEAKER_03]: You got to remember the timeframe when this happened. 07:46.466 --> 07:47.988 [SPEAKER_03]: Computers weren't being used. 07:48.969 --> 07:50.852 [SPEAKER_03]: The technology wasn't out there. 07:50.952 --> 07:56.859 [SPEAKER_03]: So you relied on old school stuff of getting mug shots, putting them in categories in mug books. 07:57.420 --> 08:03.908 [SPEAKER_03]: You had one description of people in an age bracket in another book of similar, 08:03.888 --> 08:10.616 [SPEAKER_03]: ages or older people, you know, complexions of people, they were all, you know, matched up in different categories. 08:11.277 --> 08:15.002 [SPEAKER_03]: So, you would have numerous books and they would bake. 08:15.062 --> 08:17.284 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, you would have, you would have them with this bake. 08:17.705 --> 08:20.588 [SPEAKER_03]: They were, they were filled with photos. 08:21.229 --> 08:26.115 [SPEAKER_00]: So, you could... My mother-in-law gave my husband, you know, his old photos. 08:27.237 --> 08:27.978 [SPEAKER_03]: Exactly. 08:27.998 --> 08:29.980 [SPEAKER_00]: We really have, I think, those day books. 08:30.128 --> 08:32.950 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's what they were, they're like photo albums. 08:33.871 --> 08:34.011 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 08:34.632 --> 08:39.616 [SPEAKER_03]: And it could add up to a lot of photos you would go through. 08:39.716 --> 08:42.098 [SPEAKER_03]: But like I said, that's how it was back then. 08:42.138 --> 08:42.799 [SPEAKER_03]: That's how you did it. 08:43.359 --> 08:49.124 [SPEAKER_00]: And now a day is say there is that kind of description. 08:49.184 --> 08:53.328 [SPEAKER_00]: Would you still let somebody look through that many people? 08:53.368 --> 08:59.393 [SPEAKER_00]: Or has it been kind of qualified down to, hey, we think? 08:59.626 --> 09:03.873 [SPEAKER_00]: maybe it's between, you know, zero and one. 09:03.893 --> 09:07.859 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you know, it's so, it's so different today. 09:07.879 --> 09:19.879 [SPEAKER_03]: And in a positive way, you know, when it comes to detectivoric and police work because the technology of every spot and location in New York City as a camera. 09:20.112 --> 09:21.114 [SPEAKER_03]: Everyone's got one. 09:21.455 --> 09:29.634 [SPEAKER_03]: Everyone's either in their store, in front of their apartment, on the street sign, on the traffic sign, whatever it might be, there's a camera. 09:30.376 --> 09:33.243 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's what detectives today are relying on. 09:33.483 --> 09:38.475 [SPEAKER_03]: If there's a crime, you are now filtering out around that neighborhood. 09:38.455 --> 09:49.330 [SPEAKER_03]: to get descriptions, get someone running, and then you would just proceed to the next store to the next store to the next store until you start piecing together the root that they took out of there. 09:49.951 --> 09:56.440 [SPEAKER_03]: And then once you have them, I did, you could actually reverse it and start working backwards of them arriving at the scene. 09:56.520 --> 10:02.488 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, so technology today is being used so 10:02.536 --> 10:27.598 [SPEAKER_03]: like in this case and you're going to you're going to bring it up and you did already when you are back there you're relying on eyewitnesses and the problem with that is and we ran into it back then the problem is and you know this if two people see an accident there's going to be two totally different descriptions of what happened you know so when you're relying on just people's thoughts of 10:27.578 --> 10:35.771 [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe a stressful situation, maybe being scared, maybe hiding because they heard a fight or a shot or something. 10:35.791 --> 10:44.986 [SPEAKER_03]: Now you're trying to rely on those people to really replay that scene in their head and give you an accurate description of someone. 10:45.127 --> 10:45.788 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's hard. 10:46.228 --> 10:49.013 [SPEAKER_03]: That's tough to do, but back then that's all they had. 10:48.993 --> 11:17.953 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and what they relied on was a guy that was actually in the back room doing a drug deal for this that probably actually maybe didn't even see him at all right or running out or while that looks like a black shirt you know whatever it might be you know you ran into that all the time right I I had mentioned on the podcast this week so I was in a very 11:18.558 --> 11:23.987 [SPEAKER_00]: And these guys came in and stabbed a bunch of people and they had massive tattoos all over them. 11:24.929 --> 11:31.299 [SPEAKER_00]: And I could recognize them for sure by their tattoos because their tattoos were very distinct. 11:31.580 --> 11:40.735 [SPEAKER_00]: But when I went to the lineup, I could not identify the guys because they wouldn't, they were in gray sweats suits. 11:40.951 --> 11:46.500 [SPEAKER_00]: all of them, and they had grown out their hair, so they had some tattoos on their heads before. 11:47.040 --> 11:54.111 [SPEAKER_00]: And, but they grew out their hair by that time, and they wouldn't let me look at their tattoos, which I thought was kind of odd. 11:54.131 --> 11:57.657 [SPEAKER_00]: As I said, you know, I can identify them by their tattoos, but they said no. 11:58.598 --> 12:02.284 [SPEAKER_03]: Mm-hmm, because that's a defense attorney's dream. 12:03.007 --> 12:03.969 [SPEAKER_03]: you didn't see them. 12:04.489 --> 12:06.052 [SPEAKER_03]: You can identify it with them. 12:06.392 --> 12:07.835 [SPEAKER_03]: How many people have those tattoos? 12:08.656 --> 12:09.297 [SPEAKER_03]: Probably many. 12:09.317 --> 12:11.220 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, and that's, and I get that. 12:11.240 --> 12:13.423 [SPEAKER_00]: I hope not, many people. 12:14.064 --> 12:18.872 [SPEAKER_03]: Yep, but I'm working at it as, you know, that room. 12:18.852 --> 12:34.954 [SPEAKER_03]: doing a line up with the DA and the DA is going, no, that's more of the DA is called than the detectives, but I understand that it's just kind of the same thing with colors of cars they can change. 12:35.305 --> 12:40.330 [SPEAKER_03]: you know, so it's similar to that hair color or you have blonde hair. 12:40.851 --> 12:42.212 [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, he comes into line up. 12:42.252 --> 12:44.455 [SPEAKER_03]: You kind of think it's the same guy when I was got brown hair. 12:44.875 --> 12:55.627 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, so it's all, it's, I can understand that, but you, but you're right when you just pick out one thing that maybe can be used later or maybe not. 12:56.387 --> 12:56.728 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 12:56.748 --> 13:03.675 [SPEAKER_00]: And I, I mean, I was, I sat next to this person 13:04.297 --> 13:14.417 [SPEAKER_00]: could not pick out that person in a one up and so when and when I think that somebody had a mere glimpse of somebody, that would be very hard. 13:14.598 --> 13:17.042 [SPEAKER_00]: That I witnessed testimony would be very hard. 13:17.062 --> 13:23.114 [SPEAKER_00]: There's also times where I'm just walking down the street and I'll say to my husband or my kids or something I'm like, did you see that lady? 13:23.155 --> 13:25.900 [SPEAKER_00]: That was so weird and they're like, no, I didn't see anybody. 13:25.880 --> 13:34.842 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, now you're in the different world, so now you're in the world because of the profession you have now Things and look it's the same thing with me. 13:35.343 --> 13:40.716 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I walk into a store or anything completely different than my family 13:41.101 --> 14:03.666 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I'll just pick out everything that's in a store in a parking lot because it's just it's a mindset and it's not just noticing something it's noticing something to remember it and you're not wired that way you know regular people in the public go buy people all day long and might notice them, but then I can remember them. 14:03.983 --> 14:07.546 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, especially when something like a stressful event happens, that happens a lot. 14:07.826 --> 14:08.487 [SPEAKER_03]: That's a big deal. 14:08.507 --> 14:09.628 [SPEAKER_03]: That happens quite often. 14:10.028 --> 14:20.578 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, let me ask you when it comes to, you know, kind of this narrowed vision of, hey, we need to, we need to get a conviction here. 14:20.598 --> 14:25.222 [SPEAKER_00]: We need to have some justice so that people feel comfortable or whatever it is. 14:25.262 --> 14:33.990 [SPEAKER_00]: Did you see a lot of that go down in the department when you were there? 14:33.970 --> 14:44.385 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I mean, I can speak for myself that you always listen locking bad guys up you want to do okay, but the worst thing 14:44.905 --> 14:50.831 [SPEAKER_03]: And the most embarrassing thing is something going wrong because of something you did down the line. 14:51.492 --> 15:01.982 [SPEAKER_03]: So I was very attention-oriented and detail-oriented that I never wanted one of my cases to go south. 15:02.723 --> 15:14.575 [SPEAKER_03]: So I would start, and I learned this from my dad, actually, who was a retired detective in the NYPD for me growing up, that as soon as you get to a scene, 15:14.555 --> 15:16.717 [SPEAKER_03]: you have to start prepping for the trial. 15:17.938 --> 15:36.134 [SPEAKER_03]: As soon as you step out to a scene, you have to start thinking about getting ready for a trial, which means talking to people the right way, getting the details downpad, getting evidence that might be on the ground, calling the proper units to come to take care of certain things. 15:36.755 --> 15:42.520 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, so I always paid attention to that of getting ready for trial 15:42.635 --> 15:44.998 [SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, did other people do other things? 15:45.759 --> 15:52.487 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you know, I'm not going to say I'm not going to be naive enough to say, you know, maybe some things weren't factually correct sometimes. 15:52.887 --> 15:58.213 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I'm not excusing it by any stretch, but, you know, did that happen? 15:58.253 --> 15:58.874 [SPEAKER_03]: Of course it did. 15:59.074 --> 15:59.955 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, we all know that. 15:59.995 --> 16:02.478 [SPEAKER_03]: There's documented cases of it. 16:02.498 --> 16:03.019 [SPEAKER_03]: Right. 16:03.039 --> 16:06.403 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, and this, you know, was this one of them? 16:06.943 --> 16:07.444 [SPEAKER_03]: Could have been. 16:08.639 --> 16:28.012 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, it seems to me like maybe even if it wasn't the detectives, it was definitely the prosecution at some point where it's like, come on, we know that this is not the right guy, but you can't be grow, you know? 16:28.232 --> 16:30.897 [SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes you just need to say, I made a mistake. 16:31.578 --> 16:32.740 [SPEAKER_00]: We made a mistake. 16:32.905 --> 16:56.584 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you know, and prosecutors have that prosecution rate that hangs over their head and you know, especially when, you know, a case like this makes the news and makes the media, you know, and is not media driven like today by any stretch, you know, the media wasn't like it is today at all, but 16:56.783 --> 17:20.648 [SPEAKER_03]: It's a story that's on the news, and you got to remember, in New York City, 90, 95% of the crime that happens is going to make the news because it's just so often, you know, but the one that does and your attached to it is as the prosecutor, that's a lot of pressure, you know, when you're the only case in New York City that's on the news at that time. 17:20.729 --> 17:28.280 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I can see that this is what I've has always just earned to me is that they call it a win, right? 17:28.340 --> 17:31.444 [SPEAKER_00]: Like they say, oh, the prosecution one. 17:31.524 --> 17:35.369 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like that's that makes me think we're in a game. 17:35.430 --> 17:37.052 [SPEAKER_00]: But we're not in a game. 17:37.072 --> 17:38.854 [SPEAKER_00]: These are people's lives at stake. 17:39.215 --> 17:49.369 [SPEAKER_00]: And yes, we all want the bad guys to go away, but we don't want to put people that didn't do it away just for the sake of the win. 17:49.349 --> 17:50.031 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's right. 17:50.051 --> 17:50.973 [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely. 17:51.574 --> 17:52.637 [SPEAKER_00]: And nobody really wins. 17:52.937 --> 17:53.118 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 17:53.158 --> 17:56.606 [SPEAKER_00]: At the end of the day in a murder, no one's winning. 17:56.726 --> 18:01.498 [SPEAKER_00]: Even when you put that bad guy away into prison, that's not a win. 18:01.578 --> 18:02.179 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not even. 18:02.199 --> 18:03.663 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not a win for our taxes. 18:03.763 --> 18:05.046 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not a win for... 18:05.380 --> 18:10.288 [SPEAKER_00]: society, it's not, it doesn't feel like a win to me. 18:10.668 --> 18:13.252 [SPEAKER_00]: It's just, it's at a very unfortunate situation. 18:13.312 --> 18:20.724 [SPEAKER_00]: And, and so I wish we could change that, like, that mentality of, you know, the prosecution one. 18:20.824 --> 18:23.709 [SPEAKER_00]: I just was following the Brendan Bandfield case. 18:23.769 --> 18:24.089 [SPEAKER_00]: Did you? 18:24.129 --> 18:24.891 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 18:25.512 --> 18:26.113 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, pair. 18:26.834 --> 18:27.034 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 18:28.027 --> 18:30.693 [SPEAKER_00]: And that one prosecution just got a win. 18:30.714 --> 18:38.633 [SPEAKER_00]: So what they said yesterday, and I actually think it was a win for them because that when I think could have gone either way. 18:39.214 --> 18:39.355 [SPEAKER_03]: Right. 18:39.495 --> 18:40.517 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it's all relevant. 18:40.718 --> 18:43.545 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, you know, is the global case of win? 18:43.605 --> 18:44.888 [SPEAKER_03]: No. 18:45.053 --> 18:46.195 [SPEAKER_03]: you know, that's not a win. 18:46.355 --> 18:51.342 [SPEAKER_03]: You got these kids who were slaughtered, you know, and the psychos in jail now. 18:51.542 --> 18:52.423 [SPEAKER_03]: Is that really a win? 18:52.483 --> 18:59.313 [SPEAKER_03]: No, but I understand the terminology and them saying, you know, I get that. 18:59.433 --> 19:07.264 [SPEAKER_03]: But, you know, when you break it down into reality and what really counts in your life and what really counts in the world, like you said, 19:07.379 --> 19:18.696 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I wouldn't use the term when, because you have families that are still mourning and will always mourn for the rest of their lives, you know, with the loss of their children. 19:19.858 --> 19:20.298 [SPEAKER_00]: I agree. 19:20.759 --> 19:26.467 [SPEAKER_00]: And this case, I mean, really it took so long and it took media. 19:27.649 --> 19:33.538 [SPEAKER_00]: At the end of the day, it really did take media to help him get you got pardoned, right? 19:34.480 --> 19:59.070 [SPEAKER_00]: uh... was it partner or uh... clemency yet the case got not exonerated but it got it got reversed yes yes so what do you think do do you think that there are a lot more of these cases that need to be looked at in new york elsewhere 19:59.692 --> 20:05.137 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you know, I want to go a lot more, but there's problem. 20:05.197 --> 20:29.158 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, listen, we've seen cases that have been reversed after years because of technology and the ability to go back into crime scenes and to go back into evidence and now use the DNA capabilities that are out there today to wrong, you know, right or wrong, you know, 20:29.375 --> 20:42.141 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't see any problem with that, you know, because like you said, you want to do it right and if it's not right fix it, you just said it perfectly, you know, and if technology today can help with that, then do it. 20:42.542 --> 20:47.552 [SPEAKER_03]: I would go, I'm sure most of the, I'm going to go the greater majority. 20:48.072 --> 20:51.980 [SPEAKER_03]: of the cases out there are correct, but do mistakes happen? 20:52.240 --> 20:52.761 [SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely. 20:53.182 --> 20:54.325 [SPEAKER_03]: And have mistakes happen. 20:54.425 --> 20:55.066 [SPEAKER_03]: We've seen it. 20:55.126 --> 21:05.507 [SPEAKER_03]: We've seen people go through DNA tests that are now getting out of jail and getting their sentences communicated and all that, which is the right thing to do. 21:05.673 --> 21:18.390 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, this is actually there was DNA on a slip, yeah, they finally tested and found that it wasn't his so at the end of the day, thankfully DNA technology has come so far. 21:18.491 --> 21:25.420 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, when we were at crime con we even saw that now, I mean, it's it's amazing. 21:25.467 --> 21:42.902 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and the genealogy and all that that's out there now is it makes police work, you know, not I don't think easier, but the avenues and the resources that you have now are right there to make sure or try to make sure you get everything right. 21:43.844 --> 21:47.070 [SPEAKER_00]: In your next life, do you want to come back as a police officer again? 21:47.388 --> 21:47.929 [SPEAKER_03]: in a minute. 21:48.550 --> 21:50.192 [SPEAKER_03]: I do it again tomorrow. 21:50.473 --> 21:50.933 [SPEAKER_03]: You kidding? 21:51.294 --> 21:54.939 [SPEAKER_03]: Because, and that's you listen, I've said it forever. 21:55.260 --> 22:02.370 [SPEAKER_03]: I've said it in police academies that I go and speak at or detective classes, colleges, whatever. 22:03.472 --> 22:04.994 [SPEAKER_03]: When you do this job, you have to love it. 22:05.315 --> 22:06.016 [SPEAKER_03]: You can't like it. 22:07.137 --> 22:07.598 [SPEAKER_00]: You can't. 22:07.618 --> 22:08.599 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, like what I do. 22:08.640 --> 22:09.080 [SPEAKER_03]: No, no, no, no. 22:09.200 --> 22:11.844 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I loved every minute of what I did. 22:12.565 --> 22:15.049 [SPEAKER_03]: And I would do it again tomorrow. 22:15.451 --> 22:27.805 [SPEAKER_00]: Tom, you also created a spray that is better than pepper spray that I have taken to give to my daughter and all of her friends and myself. 22:27.925 --> 22:44.884 [SPEAKER_00]: I keep one with me at all times and in my car, but tell people about it because I really think that, you know, I saw at Christmas time, 22:44.864 --> 22:47.027 [SPEAKER_00]: That one they're never going to use it. 22:47.127 --> 22:52.675 [SPEAKER_00]: And if they do, they might be hiring themselves more, then they're going to be defending themselves. 22:52.715 --> 22:53.957 [SPEAKER_00]: So talk about impact. 22:54.517 --> 22:54.818 [SPEAKER_03]: Okay. 22:54.838 --> 22:57.241 [SPEAKER_03]: So it's the name of the sprays impact. 22:58.002 --> 23:01.887 [SPEAKER_03]: And what it does is everything that pepper spray, you know, you're afraid to use. 23:02.508 --> 23:03.690 [SPEAKER_03]: Impact doesn't have that. 23:04.231 --> 23:09.538 [SPEAKER_03]: So with impact, like so many situations when it's just you and a bad guy, 23:09.518 --> 23:15.628 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, nothing's going to blow back on you, and that's the best part, it's a targeted spray. 23:16.249 --> 23:21.417 [SPEAKER_03]: So the bottles that we have, even the key chains that you have to have are nitrogen propelled. 23:22.259 --> 23:25.684 [SPEAKER_03]: So you don't have to wait for that bad guy to get on top of you or close to you. 23:25.785 --> 23:30.312 [SPEAKER_03]: You can actually hit them in the eyes 10 to 15 feet away from you. 23:30.292 --> 23:32.678 [SPEAKER_03]: and it is an extreme eye irritant. 23:32.758 --> 23:35.564 [SPEAKER_03]: It will absolutely shut your eyes in a second. 23:36.065 --> 23:44.605 [SPEAKER_03]: You are unable to open your eyes and it burns like no other burn you'll ever feel and it gives you the opportunity to get out of that area. 23:45.243 --> 24:05.833 [SPEAKER_03]: The other key parts of it is you can use it inside and nothing's going to affect the person using the spray just the bad guy so you can use it in a car in an Uber in a train in a elevator and a stairwell and the only person's going to be affected by the spray is the bad guy. 24:05.813 --> 24:10.761 [SPEAKER_03]: And one of the best parts on the civilian side is it has a UV die marker in it. 24:11.341 --> 24:22.819 [SPEAKER_03]: So you can spray that person and get out of there and call 911 and police can show up and shine a black light in their face and they'll be covered in this purple die. 24:23.400 --> 24:25.483 [SPEAKER_03]: That is invisible that they don't know is on them. 24:26.064 --> 24:34.757 [SPEAKER_03]: And that is admissible in court when you go to prosecute him. 24:34.737 --> 24:35.879 [SPEAKER_00]: That's awesome. 24:36.160 --> 24:54.559 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, we hope no one ever has to use that, but honestly, you guys, I went with Tom to a Sheriff's Department in Fort Worth and we were talking to a bunch of police officers and they have said they never use their pepper spray because they are afraid of what it's going to do to them. 24:54.759 --> 24:55.581 [SPEAKER_00]: So. 24:55.561 --> 25:05.253 [SPEAKER_00]: As civilians, I don't think we understand that when we're an elevator and we were going to spray pepper spray, we're going to now have pepper spray all over ourselves. 25:05.313 --> 25:10.600 [SPEAKER_00]: We're not going to be able to know what we're doing and then it's just that's a disaster waiting to happen, right? 25:10.640 --> 25:14.104 [SPEAKER_00]: So this is it's so good. 25:14.124 --> 25:16.627 [SPEAKER_00]: You have to everyone should have it with them. 25:17.588 --> 25:21.353 [SPEAKER_00]: And we're all taking ubers too, right? 25:21.753 --> 25:23.155 [SPEAKER_00]: And I never know. 25:23.135 --> 25:24.176 [SPEAKER_00]: You never know. 25:24.336 --> 25:25.097 [SPEAKER_00]: You never know. 25:25.297 --> 25:34.505 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, and more people are out there like you, you know, you've done the more people are out there getting in shape and walking and jogging and on their bikes. 25:35.086 --> 25:36.467 [SPEAKER_03]: So many people are doing that. 25:37.228 --> 25:42.052 [SPEAKER_03]: And bad guys know that, you know, and they know joggers are alone for the most part. 25:42.552 --> 25:44.194 [SPEAKER_03]: People walk and sometimes are alone. 25:44.254 --> 25:44.915 [SPEAKER_03]: They know that. 25:45.295 --> 25:51.260 [SPEAKER_03]: So you want to be armed with something that is going to take the bad guy out of the picture, but not affect you. 25:51.821 --> 25:53.142 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's what impact does. 25:53.290 --> 25:57.037 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, so tell them where to find it. 25:57.057 --> 25:59.942 [SPEAKER_03]: You can go on carryimpact.com. 26:00.583 --> 26:06.013 [SPEAKER_03]: And we have three different sizes in MK-34 and a nine. 26:06.634 --> 26:12.185 [SPEAKER_03]: So the three in the four, you can, you know, you can use, you know, you can carry in your pocketbook or whatever. 26:12.706 --> 26:17.374 [SPEAKER_03]: The MK-9 is a big can for your car, for your house. 26:17.354 --> 26:18.516 [SPEAKER_03]: for your apartment. 26:18.556 --> 26:19.619 [SPEAKER_03]: They're great for that. 26:20.280 --> 26:31.122 [SPEAKER_03]: And then we have the key chains, which you have, which is a just black, non-descript key chain, you know, wraps right around your keys on your chain, on your landyard, whatever it might be. 26:31.162 --> 26:36.452 [SPEAKER_03]: And it's great for, you know, that hit to get out of a really dangerous situation. 26:36.653 --> 26:38.316 [SPEAKER_03]: And all you need is time. 26:38.296 --> 26:44.991 [SPEAKER_03]: all you need is time to remove yourself from a bad and dangerous situation to get on your phone and call 911. 26:45.472 --> 26:46.574 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's what impact does. 26:46.594 --> 26:47.696 [SPEAKER_03]: It gives you enough time. 26:48.278 --> 26:50.763 [SPEAKER_03]: If the bad guy doesn't see you, he can't hurt you. 26:50.783 --> 26:51.004 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 26:51.144 --> 26:55.573 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, so that's the magic of impact and why we develop it. 26:55.814 --> 26:58.600 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, so thank you for that, Tom. 26:58.698 --> 27:05.027 [SPEAKER_00]: And real quick, because this is coming out, and Tom is very busy right now talking about Savannah Guntheries. 27:05.047 --> 27:07.290 [SPEAKER_00]: Mom had we all know about that. 27:07.350 --> 27:13.319 [SPEAKER_00]: We talked about that on Patreon this week and she's 84 years old. 27:13.419 --> 27:18.225 [SPEAKER_00]: She's missing her daughter is on the today show, correct? 27:18.706 --> 27:20.168 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's about it. 27:20.729 --> 27:26.477 [SPEAKER_00]: And her mom is missing, which is just so. 27:26.457 --> 27:26.998 [SPEAKER_00]: bizarre. 27:27.159 --> 27:38.106 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think anybody thinks that there's that they're 84-year-old mother that can barely walk around without using assistance just up in banishes. 27:38.948 --> 27:42.036 [SPEAKER_00]: And so what do you know, Tom, that we don't know? 27:42.573 --> 27:55.751 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, is a couple of things that are interesting that I think we'll come out later on from what I always told from someone I know there are a were cameras, surveillance cameras around the house, but they're all broken. 27:56.291 --> 27:57.193 [SPEAKER_03]: They're all smashed. 27:57.793 --> 28:02.680 [SPEAKER_03]: So that tells me that someone with knowledge of that house committed this crime. 28:03.221 --> 28:04.983 [SPEAKER_03]: The back door was was open. 28:05.043 --> 28:06.705 [SPEAKER_03]: That's how they gain entry into it. 28:07.527 --> 28:10.150 [SPEAKER_03]: It was later in the night knowing she was alone. 28:10.535 --> 28:18.255 [SPEAKER_03]: knowing, you know, when you go up to an area where that is and the terrain that it is, you have to have a knowledge of that. 28:18.336 --> 28:22.467 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think this is a random, hey, let's pick that house and see who's there. 28:22.507 --> 28:26.417 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, most bad guys don't don't work that way. 28:26.937 --> 28:41.825 [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm not buying the, you know, burger or home invasion because home invaders and burglars don't kidnap people, they just don't, they want property, they may tie you up, they may, you know, do other things, but they want money, they want stuff that's in your house. 28:42.346 --> 28:44.710 [SPEAKER_00]: Did anything taken out of her house? 28:44.690 --> 29:12.317 [SPEAKER_03]: out that I'm aware of right now from the people that I've spoken to that hasn't been really gone over but I don't think so you know so I'm gonna I'm gonna go out on a limb and and say it's someone that's known to them that knows the area knows the house knows the family uh to know where those cameras were that's a big deal that's a big deal yeah 29:12.635 --> 29:41.950 [SPEAKER_03]: maybe you don't really know or they just they knew it enough to all right we have to take care of this first before we get in the house uh it's still unknown how many people might be involved in this you know who might have been in the house so all this I think is going to play out and get some answers probably by morning I think uh I will see isn't it weird 29:42.588 --> 29:49.056 [SPEAKER_00]: capable things she walked me know she said maybe like 50 yards or 50 feet or something not. 29:49.076 --> 29:54.743 [SPEAKER_00]: So to get somebody out of a house like that it almost seems like you would need more than one person. 29:55.404 --> 30:08.460 [SPEAKER_03]: Right and that might be the case in just forever and drag or you know it's a lot less than I don't care if you're 84 I don't care if you're 18 it is extremely hard to get a human being. 30:08.525 --> 30:13.571 [SPEAKER_03]: from point A to point B who might even struggle a little bit and then into a car. 30:14.232 --> 30:17.797 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, there was some blood found at the area in the area. 30:18.317 --> 30:21.181 [SPEAKER_03]: No one knows, you know, some testings being done right now. 30:21.201 --> 30:22.322 [SPEAKER_03]: We just talked about DNA. 30:22.943 --> 30:29.291 [SPEAKER_03]: Some testings being done right now to see if it even matches her, they may get lucky and it might be a bad guy. 30:29.311 --> 30:32.896 [SPEAKER_03]: She might have scratched or she might have hit with something, you know, who knows? 30:33.977 --> 30:37.722 [SPEAKER_03]: So all that, well, that's going to be playing 30:37.702 --> 30:53.441 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I hear you, I remember having, you know, toddlers that were screaming and didn't want to get put in the RC and how challenging it was to put them through car seat and they are, you know, 30 40 pounds at that the most at that point. 30:53.501 --> 31:04.654 [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, gosh, I know she just put out a Instagram like prayer train and so I mean everybody just pray for this poor woman. 31:05.123 --> 31:15.601 [SPEAKER_00]: And her family, and I mean, it would just if there's some sort of Sherry papini situation where she just shows up. 31:16.783 --> 31:20.009 [SPEAKER_03]: All right, well, they just let her go and, you know, something like that. 31:20.590 --> 31:24.196 [SPEAKER_03]: The problem is there, there's a medication that she needs every day. 31:24.216 --> 31:25.899 [SPEAKER_03]: That is still at the house. 31:26.500 --> 31:27.462 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I saw that. 31:27.662 --> 31:30.507 [SPEAKER_03]: That's a growing concern with her health. 31:30.993 --> 31:56.680 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that is I did see that so we shall see well thank you Tom so much for being on our program and I hope to see you at CrimeCon in June I think it's that first is that last week and a make me yep I hope so too you better be there else I'm just going to you know Show up with the black man and just 31:57.098 --> 32:08.865 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, I will definitely see you if not there, then I will come again and we'll go to the Spotify Studios in New York. 32:08.965 --> 32:10.910 [SPEAKER_00]: That's really fun when we do that. 32:10.950 --> 32:11.371 [SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely. 32:11.952 --> 32:12.834 [SPEAKER_03]: It's always a pleasure. 32:13.055 --> 32:16.322 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, like I said, Me and you. 32:16.741 --> 32:20.288 [SPEAKER_03]: This is kind of what four years of knowing each other. 32:20.328 --> 32:22.171 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's so good. 32:22.191 --> 32:24.436 [SPEAKER_03]: Yep, and tap at the calls. 32:24.696 --> 32:32.050 [SPEAKER_03]: Hey, Neja 5 o'clock, whatever else I got going on, gets pushed to the side and we come on at 5 o'clock for 10 o'clock. 32:32.030 --> 32:33.392 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you tell your wife. 32:33.493 --> 32:40.124 [SPEAKER_00]: I appreciate her because I know Tom just walked in the door and he was like, sorry, I don't want five more minutes. 32:40.164 --> 32:40.745 [SPEAKER_00]: Five more minutes. 32:41.487 --> 32:44.893 [SPEAKER_00]: So give her my well wishes also. 32:44.933 --> 32:47.237 [SPEAKER_00]: I will talk to you soon. 32:47.277 --> 32:49.020 [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, on thank you so much. 32:49.100 --> 32:50.342 [SPEAKER_03]: I have him as always. 32:50.491 --> 32:51.112 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you. 32:51.132 --> 32:52.493 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, Tom, one more thing. 32:52.674 --> 32:54.015 [SPEAKER_00]: You do have a podcast also. 32:54.055 --> 32:54.856 [SPEAKER_00]: So let's talk about that. 32:55.116 --> 32:55.237 [SPEAKER_03]: Why? 32:55.257 --> 32:56.538 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh my god. 32:56.878 --> 32:58.360 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's right. 32:58.380 --> 33:01.504 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, speaking of how we, how we got together. 33:01.704 --> 33:02.485 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes. 33:02.966 --> 33:06.369 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's called, uh, for everyone who doesn't know, it's called Gold Shields. 33:06.830 --> 33:19.705 [SPEAKER_03]: It's me and my old partner, Dan Murphy, who interview just amazing people in law enforcement, the military 33:20.275 --> 33:49.405 [SPEAKER_03]: the best part about our show is we get the people who actually went through these investigations of these military missions to tell their own story and some, you know, this year are blowing our mind already with what we got coming up and some of the ones we have scheduled to have are just off the hook and we just can't wait for it and we started our fourth season so we're 33:49.385 --> 34:00.642 [SPEAKER_03]: every podcast platform that's out there and our YouTube channel uh YouTube.com slash at Gold Shields and our website the Gold Shields show.com. 34:00.662 --> 34:10.698 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, so go check it out if you haven't already and also rate and review Tom because we all need that right and thank you so much Tom. 34:10.718 --> 34:12.000 [SPEAKER_03]: Always a pleasure.