[SPEAKER_00]: Who are the people that I'm doing this with?
[SPEAKER_00]: People are the biggest determinant of success or failure.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's really not the idea.
[SPEAKER_00]: The idea is sort of like third, the execution of the ideas, second, the people that you associate yourself with first, because they drive the execution and ultimately the idea changes in the process.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've had the good fortune of doing these entrepreneurial endeavors with many of the same people over and over.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that has made the calculus easier.
[SPEAKER_03]: The beauty of the podcast is you just get to talk to so many different people, you know, most of the time when someone comes on the show, they've done something worthy of talking about in some regard, but you've had a pretty expansive and diverse, seemingly diverse career that I think is fairly unique, a lot of times when I'm, you know, researching someone for the show and getting ready to talk to them.
[SPEAKER_03]: most of their experience sits in a couple buckets, or one main bucket, even myself, most of my career, and most of what, most of my experience knowledge, beliefs, et cetera, are born out of the work in the insurance industry.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now, don't a little bit in fitness, don't a little bit in tech, et cetera, and obviously media, but that's the core.
[SPEAKER_03]: MBA, communication apps, you know, all these different things that you've done.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a fairly robust and wide swath of different, you know, and I'm sure there's a through line, but I'm not, I don't think so actually, by the way, I used the word swath last night in a text.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I love the fact that you just used it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like,
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that word doesn't get enough love, but what here's what's interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's I I spend so much of my time thinking about how to communicate my company and how to like I don't think about how to communicate myself and my journey and my stories So this is really interesting for me because I just like I
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm actually a little bit nervous, believe it or not, I don't know, because I, you know, it's like the imposter said, like, I can't imagine I have anything worth valuable to tell the audience here, but I'm excited for where this goes.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, let's, let's start there.
[SPEAKER_03]: How can a guy with your experience, your success that diverse and robust nature of the various projects that you've worked on companies you've started, the number of, of exited companies that you have, and the continued success now with Rome?
[SPEAKER_03]: But how does a guy like you have any kind of imposter syndrome, because I think most people listening when they look through your resume would be like, you're either full of shit or what am I supposed to do if this dude's got imposter syndrome?
[SPEAKER_01]: that's the circle.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I look, I have high expectations for the companies I work at and with for and for myself and I feel like, yes, I have had a good interesting career to date.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've had a bunch of success.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've had some
[SPEAKER_00]: You know failures or not as great successes I would like and I guess that all leads to sort of, you know, a bit of imposter and a bit of man I should be doing better.
[SPEAKER_00]: I could be doing better.
[SPEAKER_00]: I should have done better.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think that's perhaps where some of that comes from.
[SPEAKER_03]: One of the things that I try to teach my kids and I'm interested in your take on this, we were actually just talking about this with basketball the other day.
[SPEAKER_03]: My son is very talented, but he's not a naturally aggressive kid.
[SPEAKER_03]: So at his age, even though he can do things that I couldn't even imagine doing at his age,
[SPEAKER_03]: He's still, you know, he struggles sometimes.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I asked him one day, like, why, like, I've seen you do things that I, one of the even though you could do, that I think are pretty fantastic for your age.
[SPEAKER_03]: But like in the games, you kind of, you kind of get small, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And he said, I'm, he was honest enough to say that he has fear.
[SPEAKER_03]: And what I thought in that, three have this conversation about fear.
[SPEAKER_03]: And one of the things that came out,
[SPEAKER_03]: And this is where I'm very much in your take is I said like the fear never goes away, but like I think that's the big I shouldn't say I think it's a big
[SPEAKER_03]: misunderstanding, myth, et cetera, that elite performers, people who achieve success, that the next time they don't feel fear, they've like, they've beaten fear down and somehow our victorious over fear.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I said, I've done 400 keynotes.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm just as scared every time I step on stage.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: I just know how to channel it now.
[SPEAKER_03]: So do you think it's,
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, how do you deal with that personally when you're looking at a new endeavor?
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe even, you know, taking on Rome now, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: If at all this success, you're going to take on another startup, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: How do you deal with that fear that inevitably comes up when you're going to take on a big challenge?
[SPEAKER_00]: First of all, what a great relationship you have with your son that he was comfortable enough to say that.
[SPEAKER_00]: So well done there.
[SPEAKER_00]: But you used the word I was going to use,
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a funny, I would get nervous if I wasn't nervous.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so because you're supposed to be nervous, and that's healthy every time I take the stage or I do a podcast or I do a TV appearance.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think that's all right, and that's all healthy.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then it's channeling that fear into positivity and some level of
[SPEAKER_00]: This comfort is what I believe what grows us, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's where we learn, that's where we challenge, that's where we overcome obstacles and ultimately how we grow.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I have spent a career putting myself in uncomfortable situations.
[SPEAKER_00]: because I want to grow, and I want to change, and I want to, by the way, my set is an incredible book by Carol Dweck, and we actually make everybody at Rome read it, because you're like, that's something you need to work on.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a muscle, and you need to be uncomfortable.
[SPEAKER_00]: You need to have a bit of imposter syndrome.
[SPEAKER_00]: You need to be nervous, and that means, you know, and then,
[SPEAKER_00]: Ultimately, good things come of that, out of that, even if it's short-term failure, medium to long-term goodness.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was listening to this conversation, I was a podcast.
[SPEAKER_03]: Tony Robbins was on Dyer of a CEO.
[SPEAKER_03]: And he talked about these five, I'm just going to say things that everybody needs.
[SPEAKER_03]: And he goes through each one throughout the podcast.
[SPEAKER_03]: But there were two that seemingly are diametrically opposed,
[SPEAKER_03]: that they spent an awful lot of time on and I found it to be a probably the most engaging part of the conversation was this this conflict between our need as human beings like a core need is for us to have both certainty
[SPEAKER_03]: and uncertainty at the same time and he really digs in and I won't do justice to the level of expertise and knowledge and thought that he's put into this topic, but I found it to be very intriguing because especially as an entrepreneur, especially someone who likes to dig into new projects, that balance is it's really difficult because we all desire
[SPEAKER_03]: I want to make sure my family's taken care of.
[SPEAKER_03]: I want to make sure I'm taken care of.
[SPEAKER_03]: I want to make sure that if I have a bad day, my life isn't blown up.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so I need that certainty.
[SPEAKER_03]: But at the same time for so many of us, you know, particularly high growth, high achievers, entrepreneurs, entrepreneurs, et cetera, if there isn't some level of uncertainty, we immediately become bored, we become distracted.
[SPEAKER_03]: We actually become oftentimes problems inside of organizations.
[SPEAKER_03]: how when you're when you're looking at a project again like Rome or like any of the previous companies that you've been with how do you calculate the amount of uncertainty versus certainty in that project and whether or not it's it's worth taking on this risk especially and this is kind of where my question goes.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think early on, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: We can take on massive amounts of uncertainty.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're early 20s, late 20s, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: But we start to get into our 40s, our 50s.
[SPEAKER_03]: We've had some success.
[SPEAKER_03]: We have some things to protect.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's a tough, you know, it's tough to balance taking on that much uncertainty again, et cetera.
[SPEAKER_03]: So how do you deal with that equation?
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, I think you're right that a lot of it has to do with age and, you know, with dependence and with financial obligations, um, and, and so, uh, everybody has to sort of do their own calculus, um, for me, um,
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I had early success, which was great, and that allowed me to continue to do and take risks and do some of the things that I've done, but you know, how do I assess the risk?
[SPEAKER_00]: I, um,
[SPEAKER_00]: One is, like, how big an opportunity is this?
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, but like, we've tamed total addressable market, but just more generally, is this a big idea, or is this sort of a niche idea?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's part of the calculus.
[SPEAKER_00]: Who are the people that I'm doing this with?
[SPEAKER_00]: I always say that,
[SPEAKER_00]: People are probably the biggest determinant of success or failure that you surround yourself with.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's really not the idea and it's really the idea is sort of like third.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the execution of the idea is probably second than the people that you associate yourself with.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's probably first because they drive the execution and ultimately the idea changes.
[SPEAKER_00]: as in the process.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think that's that's all part of my and and I've had the fortune the good fortune of like doing these entrepreneurial endeavors with many of the same people over and over and and that has um
[SPEAKER_00]: made the calculus easier.
[SPEAKER_00]: These are known quantities.
[SPEAKER_00]: We know what we're each good at and sort of how the puzzle fits together.
[SPEAKER_00]: We trust each other.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we can move quickly because we have a common shared language.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think that's all.
[SPEAKER_00]: But look, ultimately, you know, you've got
[SPEAKER_00]: You have certain things you probably need to do, take care of your family, mortgage, whatever it is.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you need to make sure that these risks are...
[SPEAKER_00]: the right risk profile for you, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like everybody has their own risk profile, so I'm not gonna prescribe that, but I certainly took huge swings when I was a kid.
[SPEAKER_00]: They turned out well, which allowed me to take continue to take swings as I now have to children that are high school, age and go into college and all of the associated costs.
[SPEAKER_00]: And time, that's required for that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Any advice to the entrepreneur who is in their early 40s, late 30s, maybe even a little older who has maybe played it safe and I don't mean safe necessarily in a negative guys so don't don't take that's a negative, but you've got the corporate job it worked for you, you fit in, you made money, you had it, you haven't had a nice career, but maybe they feel.
[SPEAKER_03]: unsatisfied by the fact that they were never in the driver's seat or they never got to create that idea or they saw around a corner and their corporate entity would never allow them to kind of pull that thread.
[SPEAKER_03]: Do you have any advice or guidance or thoughts for that level of entrepreneur that type of entrepreneur who's maybe in the second phase of their career and is now looking to step out into the entrepreneur world for the first time?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you know, go do it like if you were really entrepreneurial right and and go do it because actually you've built up in the first part of your career You know a a fallback plan right like you've been successful at your at your job whatever whatever that is and and whatever size company that was you can probably go back to that
[SPEAKER_00]: uh... right and and so you've done you've done some of the the work that the the confidence building work that will allow you to then take take the risk uh... do it it is so damn um... gratifying
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, like, when loser draw, like you will learn a ton, I would probably time box it right if you've got some financial constraints, you know, say I'm going to do this for two years, I'm comfortable with that, I've got enough money saved, I know I can go back in land a reasonable job, if it doesn't work, but do it, do it, I mean,
[SPEAKER_00]: Like there's this phrase that someone told me like this isn't this is our one big beautiful life.
[SPEAKER_00]: This isn't a dress rehearsal.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so if you are going to get to the end of it and regret that you didn't do that, please go do it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I was given this exercise and I actually wrote about it at Finding Peak and it's two questions.
[SPEAKER_03]: The first question, because I love thought experiments.
[SPEAKER_03]: I realized a long time ago that my brain is broken in a lot of different ways.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the best part about that is if you feed it the right questions and thought experiments, the shit that comes out of it is really interesting and often not what you would expect.
[SPEAKER_03]: And if you've ever read, if you've never read,
[SPEAKER_03]: untethered soul by Michael Singer, fantastic book, very short, very quick read.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the idea is, we are not our mind and we are not our body, we are our soul.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the argument that he makes is what that does is it gives us permission and power to program our mind and body and not listen to them.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right?
[SPEAKER_03]: So when your body is telling you to be hesitant because, you know, it would be uncomfortable to run another mile, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, that's just your body trying to keep you, you know, your body's goal is to keep you comfortable and to keep you safe.
[SPEAKER_03]: And another mile is going to stress your system that doesn't mean it's bad for you, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's like things like that, it's cool.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, and my point in saying all that is I tend to work through these start experiments because What you get out of them are sometimes very interesting.
[SPEAKER_03]: So these two questions.
[SPEAKER_03]: First question is, um, your 80 years old, you're on your death bed, what are you regret not doing?
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: What's the thing you regret not?
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, we know.
[SPEAKER_03]: We don't have to do this right now.
[SPEAKER_03]: We can get that up.
[SPEAKER_03]: You can get that up.
[SPEAKER_00]: This does great.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've got, it's funny.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have a blank reaction.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is crazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have always wanted to learn how to make clothes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, and I think there's a reason for that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I have sort of survival instincts.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to learn how to cook.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to learn how to make be an entrepreneur and make money.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to learn.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that making clothes is almost part of that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, that's what I've convinced myself.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe it's just a cookie cookie.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, I love that.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I want to come back to this idea of you have survival instincts in a second.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that's great.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so you have this idea, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: is a working knowledge of all the base things you would need to do to survive, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe that's even bigger.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: So then the second question you ask yourself is what did I want to do 12 months from now?
[SPEAKER_03]: Or 12 months ago that I still haven't done today?
[SPEAKER_03]: right and you make these two lists and then you marry the two lists together and the things that pop up on both lists are the things that your soul are telling you you need to do right this is something you've wanted to do and haven't done and you know that if you don't do by the time you're 80 and you're on your deathbed you're going to regret and it should immediately focus you and
[SPEAKER_03]: I think, you know, where I was kind of going with this was, I think there were a lot of people that fantasize about the idea of being an entrepreneur, but in an honest, the goodness reflection, if they were 80 on their deathbed, not starting a company would not be something that they would necessarily really care about.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think
[SPEAKER_03]: to often the sexiness, the entrepreneur porn that you see out on the internet, it's so engaging, so shiny.
[SPEAKER_03]: It feels, you know, people get the most accolades.
[SPEAKER_03]: They sit on the stage.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, and we want that, like intrinsically as a person.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And, but.
[SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't mean we actually want to be entrepreneurs.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I guess my question for you out of this is how you are obviously an entrepreneur.
[SPEAKER_03]: You obviously have that desire, your brain's wired that way.
[SPEAKER_03]: How did you know or did you know?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like if I'm sitting here and I'm torn between am I an entrepreneur or am I just bored at my job?
[SPEAKER_02]: How do you figure that out?
[SPEAKER_02]: How did you figure that out?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I had maybe the greatest jobs, certainly like entry-level job in the world.
[SPEAKER_00]: I worked in marketing for the National Basketball Association.
[SPEAKER_00]: What's better than that?
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, I actually somebody asked me this the other day.
[SPEAKER_00]: Why did you ever leave that?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like isn't that you you're kind of a marketing guy isn't that the pinnacle isn't that the and, um, and I remember Adam Silver did I think was David's turn and Adam Silver both said the same thing, which is look John it.
[SPEAKER_00]: you're not going to find a better job than this, but if there's something telling you, you will have to go try, I can't give you stock options, I can't give you, you know, the
[SPEAKER_00]: the satisfaction of having built something, taking an idea and building it from the ground and imparting it into the world if that's what you need then by all means you have our blessing and go do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I will say, just to make the point even further, I was given
[SPEAKER_00]: entrepreneurial opportunities within the NBA, and so I started NBA Canada and launched the Raptors and Grizzlies expansion franchises.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so,
[SPEAKER_00]: even that even entrepreneurialism within the NBA wasn't enough for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think it was just something oozing that that's that so for me was kind of easy because I had the greatest job and the greatest opportunities in the world and I there was still something that each I needed to scratch despite that and so it was sort of a no brainer or you have to go do that.
[SPEAKER_03]: What were the biggest things from that position working with the MBA and launching expansion franchises, which is incredible?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, what did you take out of that?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I mean, there's so many pieces to this.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, again, we don't have to get into every nitty-gritty detail, but what are some of the big lessons that you took away from particularly marketing sports franchise and then ultimately launching two new brands, two core assets into a brand
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think, I mean, it was such a great experience at such a young age, and we could fill hours with what I learned.
[SPEAKER_00]: For me, market positioning was such an interesting thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: We were going into this country, Canada, that where people come out of the womb playing hockey, and we were introducing sort of this new sport.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so who are we targeting with this thing and and how do we and and ultimately we sort of wanted to go younger because we thought that the older people were more established in in hockey and whatever else that we're going to do and so we wanted to be the younger alternative and kind of get people early in basketball so because it's so who's your target.
[SPEAKER_00]: how do we how do we frame this thing this new NBA thing coming to this country is it sports is it entertainment is it sports an entertainment and that while seemingly maybe pedantic actually was really important right like what is this thing and how are we going to think about it and define it and then what makes us different right what why why should people care
[SPEAKER_00]: everyone else we put in our category, whether it's the NHL or other entertainment properties, and so just that that sort of basic positioning, which any marketer will tell you is critical, like was really important and was something I learned at an early age, and I think I think sort of just well, I think if you look, we just celebrated the 30th anniversary,
[SPEAKER_00]: of NBA Canada, and if you look back at the six of how many kids are now playing basketball, how many Canadians are playing in the NBA, the Raptors want a champ, like I think back and say those kids were watching the Raptors and wanted to emulate that, and now there's a WWE team there, and so it's very, it was incredibly gratifying to see 30 years later,
[SPEAKER_00]: We put plant that these seeds and the trees have grown and it's been great.
[SPEAKER_03]: Can you talk us through this positioning idea of entertainment versus sports?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like I think for a lot of non-marketers or just people who haven't spent a lot of time you may see what's the difference.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like sports entertainment is the same thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's basketball so isn't it obviously sports?
[SPEAKER_03]: Why would you even need to explain the difference?
[SPEAKER_03]: Why is this such an important concept?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, when you, when you drill down, right, when you think about, I, I can spend a dollar and, and I'm going to bucket that dollar, it's, it's probably not I'm going to spend that dollar on sports, it's I'm going to spend that dollar on sort of entertainment, right, and so I can either go.
[SPEAKER_00]: to an NBA game where I can, you know, go to the movies or I can go wherever, whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think just from a share of wallet standpoint, you know what, where, what, what pull are you playing it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Also there's, there's the time thing, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to go spend an hour doing something am I going to play video games?
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[SPEAKER_03]: So ladies and gentlemen, first for everything, just had the circuit breaker for my office
[SPEAKER_03]: uh... this house two years ago uh... it was built in 1960 but it hadn't been updated since 1960s crazy uh... literally there were like paths in the carpet where the woman who had owned the house for sixty years had like walked it was wild uh... but you know it's an older house so like it wasn't designed to heat the basement which is fine uh... you know whatever
[SPEAKER_03]: and so I have a little space here that I use and I didn't realize I just moved the space heater from like behind if you're watching the video what would be my left shoulder to my right shoulder and I plug it into this power strip and just put the circuit breaker mid-show.
[SPEAKER_03]: So so I turned that off we should be good moving forward.
[SPEAKER_00]: I like to think we generated so much energy that it just, yes, that's exactly that, but okay, so I don't know if you remember exactly where you were going, I do, so we were talking about share of, of, of, of, of, yeah, yeah, and I think there's also a share of time, if I'm going to spend an hour of my time, or two and a half hours in the case of an NBA game, am I going to do that, you know, um, uh,
[SPEAKER_00]: Playing video games, entertainment, I'm not going to do that, going to an NBA game sports, and so I think it's very important to think about share of wallet, share of time, vis-a-vis what category you were actually in.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think this idea of share of wallet is something that most people do not even consider.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think at a Fortune 500 CMO go to market executive level, I think it's fairly common, but you get below the Fortune 500, particularly into middle market or even small business.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not even a thought, one I don't think positioning is something that most of these organizations think about.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it's just, I'm an insurance agent, I sell insurance, that's my position, or I have a coffee shop, you know, I sell coffee, that's my position, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And they don't think about, well, how does your $4 coffee fit into every dollar that that person spends versus
[SPEAKER_03]: the gas station coffee versus the starbucks brand it you know large mega brand coffee like where do you fit in are you the are you the luxury where you get the special you know foam picture with your face on it kind of thing or are you the turn and burn 99 cent you know and
[SPEAKER_03]: like that's really important.
[SPEAKER_03]: What I think is interesting and I'd love for you to maybe expand upon particularly with the MBA and how you approach that was the share of time because I think share of wallet makes sense.
[SPEAKER_03]: We vote with our dollars but we don't just vote with our dollars.
[SPEAKER_03]: We also vote with our attention and that's kind of share of time.
[SPEAKER_03]: How do you, when you're approaching marketing something like the MBA to a new constituency, which is heavily invested in another sport in this case, Hockey, how do you start to convince them or what things did you try to get them to say, hey, we know you normally spend 10 hours a week watching hockey, we want you to spend 8 hours a week watching hockey, and two of those hours watching the MBA, or hey, we want you to add
[SPEAKER_03]: two more hours of sports watching into your week, which include the ambient.
[SPEAKER_03]: How do you how do you start to make that commitment or get that commitment from your audience?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think it's, um...
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, certainly you put up the product and you hope that some people just transfer the time and that's easy and then there's the harder work which is, well, what else should we be doing that could ultimately ladder people up to that two and a half hours, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: If they've only got 10 minutes, maybe we should have NBA video games that allow you to play for 10 minutes.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you leave, maybe we should, you know, if you only have 30 minutes and you actually want to go outside and get some exercise, maybe we should make sure there are enough hoops and balls in your neighborhood and community and country ultimately, where we can start building that brand affinity, delivering it to you and the way you want it delivered in the time that you want it delivered at the price.
[SPEAKER_00]: Playing the hoops in the park is free.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe the video game costs a little bit of money.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe the NBA ticket You know costs a lot of money So I think it's you have to think and then you know even licensed products right how do we how do we get you to you know get that NBA That that Raptors or Nick's trash can and and I'm thinking about right what does that that says something about me and my For my personal brand.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I kind of liked these guys and I want people to know that
[SPEAKER_00]: And it acts as a reminder, and ultimately, over time, you can get people to move that share of time more broadly in the way that you would like, having done planted these sort of smaller seeds ensuring that you are
[SPEAKER_00]: delivering that to them in a way that they want to digest.
[SPEAKER_00]: By the way, even like, you know, working with television broadcasters to make sure that the clips of last night's game are digestible and websites as well, again, snackable options, which ultimately will ladder up to the two and a half hours you want them to spend going to a game.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's so, it's so, it's so,
[SPEAKER_03]: It's such an interesting marketing problem to solve, you know, breaking into a new market like that, you know, even, you know, you said, you know, just making sure they have enough basketballs, you know, I hadn't even wrap my head around that like, are there enough courts for enough kids to actually play the game, you know, and have access to it.
[SPEAKER_00]: okay i'm gonna tell you a story that is my favorite david stern story um when i was growing up that watching the NBA there was a period of time where um these guys would do these dunks and they would shatter the backboard are you do you remember that?
[SPEAKER_03]: Shaquille, I think, Shaquille and Yolk.
[SPEAKER_00]: And Darrell Dawkins, though, Darrell Dawkins, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Yolk, Y
[SPEAKER_00]: David.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so if you're in an NBA arena, it takes maybe 25 minutes to redo the backboard and then the game resumes and all is, you know, not that's not terrible.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I remember David saying, we have to stop this and I was like,
[SPEAKER_00]: Why?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's terrific.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just everyone and he said because John, if an NBA, if Darrell Dawkins breaks the backboard in an NBA game, it takes us 25 minutes to redo it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a minor disruption and I agree.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's pretty interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: If somebody tries to emulate that in Canada or Africa and goes to a park and breaks that backboard, it takes 30 years.
[SPEAKER_00]: to get that rebuilt.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so when I think about growing this game across the country and the world, we have to take that longball approach and make sure that people don't do things that make sure that we don't display things that they can then do that will ultimately be a net negative
[SPEAKER_03]: My initial reaction would be to push back and say, well, let's figure out a way to get them more hoops versus stopping the backward from breaking because like, like, what's
[SPEAKER_03]: Like everybody who's ever spent any time with basketball has in their mind that picture of Michael Jordan jumping from the foul line, he's got the ball cocked back and it looks like he's just floating in space, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And it was so iconic and it happens during the, during the dunk contest when the superstars of the NBA would be part of the dunk contest.
[SPEAKER_03]: And like you would, you like would,
[SPEAKER_03]: you would you would want to see the dunk contest more than the NBA all star game because of these these feats that these guys would do right now that the NBA dunk contest is kind of a joke you never Not even know the guys half the guys don't even play in the NBA.
[SPEAKER_03]: They're like dunk specialists that they bring in just for the contest and
[SPEAKER_03]: frankly, it kind of is like a few clips in people move on.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I see it myself like, okay, I get it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, if I'm an NBA executive, I'm going, I don't want my superstar because they could twist an ankle and blah, blah, blah, except.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's no more iconic dunks.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like I haven't seen a dunk in decades where I've been like, that's a poster.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's a poster.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now I don't know.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe not, I'm not as big an NBA fan as I used to be.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like I can tell, I remember, you know, oh my gosh, I wanna say, it's not,
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, my gosh, I played for the Hawks, um, Dominique Wilkins.
[SPEAKER_03]: Dominique Wilkins, I did the events, the windmill dunk, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Just like, okay, he's swung his arm so hard.
[SPEAKER_03]: You're like, how does he even hold onto the ball?
[SPEAKER_03]: He would windmill dunk it so hard.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, and those kind of things.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I still think there's like kind of dunks, but.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, I don't know, they're just not showcasing the same way.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I have two thoughts on that.
[SPEAKER_00]: So first, I think that the penalty in the Shattering of the Backboard was was very precise.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not don't dunk, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, oh my god, it's it's you can't hang on the rim.
[SPEAKER_00]: after you dug, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think that preserves the beauty and the grace and the excitement of the dunk without the negative implications of, you know, of breaking backwards all across the world.
[SPEAKER_00]: The other thing you said, which was interesting is, boy, I would think about getting more backwards out there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Fair, but also, this is where, like, partnership comes into play.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the beautiful thing about the NBA is there are, without the NBA's involvement, there are people, organizations that put up these hoops all around the world on behalf of the sport.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we don't want to encourage that sense of community and other people helping us.
[SPEAKER_00]: as opposed to doing everything ourselves or and making sure that our rules don't hurt the people who are trying to help us ultimately.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think that's really good.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it's really good.
[SPEAKER_03]: These are the calls and these are the ideas that kind of make or break leaders, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: That this is the directions that you have to go.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I love walking through these and I think I ultimately agree with you at the end of the day.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think I love walking through these thought experiments though because it helps you as you grow and you iterate.
[SPEAKER_03]: And now you've co-founded Rome and for full transparency, Rome is a partner of mine.
[SPEAKER_03]: I use Rome every single day.
[SPEAKER_03]: uh... helped me replace a bunch of tools uh... big fans of you and your team and it's been a pleasure to work with you but uh... i had i had asked you on the the show because you know you've had this just incredibly diverse and robust experience in success and and now you're doing it again
[SPEAKER_03]: And you're taking on, in this case, software, which you have done before, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's not like it's your first software play, but kind of juxtaposition against something like the MBA where the visuals are so dynamic and the cultural connection is so just, I mean, it's,
[SPEAKER_03]: just there.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like partly you said it's a part of people's soul.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's how they identify.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm an MBA guy or I'm an NFL guy or I'm an L MLB right like we self identify these things.
[SPEAKER_00]: We should be proud self identity that's all wrapped up in that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: And now your product is a remote office and I don't.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm broad stroking, right, broad stroking, not exactly Michael Jordan, you know, kind of reverse dunking in the NBA and posturizing, so no one's got a poster of that really awesome message that they sent someone through Rome, you know, up on their wall.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, how do you take the lessons of these more visual and visceral products and apply them to software products that someone is using every day to be more productive to communicate better to help enhance their business?
[SPEAKER_03]: Because I think a lot of times, and this is where the crux of my question is coming from, and some of this is coming out of the insurance industry too, is
[SPEAKER_03]: We hear lessons from someone like yourself who's worked with a product like the NBA, sexy, fun, exciting, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think a lot of people, there becomes a disconnect or even a self-imposed disconnect between those lessons that you just shared with something like the NBA to their software product or their service product that doesn't seem as sexy as something like the NBA.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what's funny about Rome, we get, and it's great working with you and you, but I think you felt something a lot of our users feel in using Rome and what has happened in the handful of years that we've been doing this, we get, we have raving fans.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you just go to social media, you will see raving customers of Rome just raving about the software and how much more productive it has made them, how much more sense of culture it has built in their company and ultimately, you know, how much money it has saved them.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've said, not since I've worked at the NBA, which is a de facto monopoly, have I seen such reviving fans for a product?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so in that sense, there are some parallels, but I also, you know, just like I talked about going back to Canada 30 years after, that's what I'm excited about with Rome.
[SPEAKER_00]: I actually believe this is a generational product, I believe we're going to look back 30 years after the advent of Rome and see
[SPEAKER_00]: how it has changed the way people work, how it has changed people's relationship to physical offices and around the world.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I honestly believe that we will have built a a fandom a culture that is
[SPEAKER_00]: different from the NBA, but it has a lot of that, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: It has a lot of that feeling of man, like I just love this brand, and this brand has done really important meaningful things for me, for my community.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the interesting thing about Rome, too, is it sort of
[SPEAKER_00]: There's this downstream effect.
[SPEAKER_00]: We built this platform thousands of companies come onto the platform.
[SPEAKER_00]: They bring other companies on the higher people.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it's really gratifying to know that the impact that you are having
[SPEAKER_00]: on all of these people not unlike the NBA right there are 30 teams and you know a hundred eighty two games or whatever and but but the but the downstream impact of all of that is is is powerful and that's what we're hoping to get to uh... with them so i think there's some parallels obviously a lot of differences uh... two but that's maybe maybe how i would think about it well i think he just made an important point which is
[SPEAKER_03]: uh... in essence of them if i'm paraphrasing is essentially we we are forming the same brand identity like patches on our shirt with software products as we have with the town we're from the high school we went to the college we went to the sports things we follow you know et cetera et cetera the books we read the podcast with us and you're like all these
[SPEAKER_03]: It's extended into the products we use.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think for a long time, maybe we, an maybe pre-internet, we didn't associate our personal brand to the tools we used, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: But today, your Microsoft or your Google,
[SPEAKER_03]: your open AI or your Claude, you know, like we look at these things and I think, you know, to me, I look at it and it's like, I think there will come a day where it's am I am I Rome or am I slack or am I teams, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And like you start to develop and and
[SPEAKER_03]: how that tool works and what it means to you kind of defines your company culture, your value structure, what's important to you, and in that regard, what are you hoping, you know, if you had the perfect brand connection, right, so just in your mind, someone steps up on stage and they said, you know,
[SPEAKER_03]: When I use Rome, it makes me feel banned, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like this is my brand connection, perfect thing look like for you in the flow.
[SPEAKER_00]: period full stop that is what we want to do here we want to make people so productive build so much culture make them feel so good that they are in the flow at all right that that is the highest state from from certainly from a work standpoint maybe from a human standpoint and I think like that is the if people could would say
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, when I use Rome, I feel like I, or when I use Rome, I am in the flow.
[SPEAKER_00]: mission accomplished.
[SPEAKER_00]: By the way, but I think you made such a good point.
[SPEAKER_00]: I used to talk about when when people hold up a coffee cup that says Starbucks versus have a nice day, it actually says a lot about their personal brand.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you're an outside person or a candidate that's being interviewed
[SPEAKER_00]: The brand of the company, how you think about the importance of being in the flow, how you think about growing your employees because they can get up to speed easier and they have access to people that's easier.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so,
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think the the brand thing is is is very relevant from from a software standpoint.
[SPEAKER_00]: If I if I'm using like we all see it if I'm using an iPhone versus I'm using an Android phone it just adds something about me.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I immediately think that you're dumb as if you're using a non-ample phone cheap.
[SPEAKER_03]: cheap.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, usually cheap like product functionality doesn't matter as much to you Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's weird and and I know that's bad because I have family members that use them although I do obnoxiously call them out every time I see it Yeah, do they get invited to Thanksgiving or like they have to sit at a separate table?
[SPEAKER_00]: What?
[SPEAKER_03]: Here's a funny part.
[SPEAKER_03]: So my dad gets a new phone, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: He's had a Google phone forever for all the reasons that you just said he's cheap and all of a sudden he's only got a Gmail and all this stuff
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, he's he is that not I mean, it's not like outlooker.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's well, it took me a while to get him off the go out trust me.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, but you know, he's like the classic like old school like let I guy, you know, the throw your hands up in the air kind of technology.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I just said to him, I was like, you know, so he wants to get a new phone and he gets the Google phone, he gets another Google phone or whatever Android phone, and then he can't figure out how to use it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I just was like, this is the problem.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, this is what I told you.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was like, if you got an Apple phone, there's a little wizard that in three button clicks.
[SPEAKER_03]: Everything set up, all your data's back, your phone works, just like the phone you had before.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thing your snap, move on, you lose zero time.
[SPEAKER_03]: I go, the fact that you have to download this package and upload it here and do this and add this thing, and say, I'm like, that you made that decision, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And the point being,
[SPEAKER_03]: I think far too few leaders, executives, etc, spend time thinking about their product away you just set it right to help people get into flow, to be in the flow of their debt, to facilitate them doing their best work, their deepest work, etc.
[SPEAKER_03]: Is there an exercise that you have and it's probably fairly deep so we could just kind of touch the surface,
[SPEAKER_03]: to help leaders who are sitting here, think about this type of, you know, how their product actually integrates into people's lives, because
[SPEAKER_03]: I see a lot of frustration, a lot of stagnation is just this surface level, I sell, insert, widget, insert, service.
[SPEAKER_03]: Why don't people want to buy it?
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's like, well, what does it mean to them?
[SPEAKER_03]: What do you want them to think when they work with you?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, do you have like a thought experiment or just even some simple framework from reference to ones?
[SPEAKER_00]: I have two, and it comes back to positioning, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So here's a very simple statement.
[SPEAKER_00]: Two target audience.
[SPEAKER_00]: Rome is the frame of reference that offers unique selling proposition.
[SPEAKER_00]: Two target audience, Rome is the frame of reference that offers unique selling proposition.
[SPEAKER_00]: Reasons why?
[SPEAKER_00]: One two three, tone and manner.
[SPEAKER_00]: One two three.
[SPEAKER_00]: So,
[SPEAKER_00]: What can you say that NBA Canada is the most entertaining and unique sports property in the country?
[SPEAKER_00]: Why can you say why what are the supporting points to that?
[SPEAKER_00]: That we're going to emphasize in everything we do.
[SPEAKER_00]: And what's the tone and manner that we're going to do everything in?
[SPEAKER_00]: From designing this t-shirt to the software to the in-game experience, is it responsible?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it bleeding edge?
[SPEAKER_00]: is it a Ford?
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, but but like if we just put that on one piece of paper, everything you do you can hold that up to, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: How should what do you think of this home page?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, how does it do against our positioning here?
[SPEAKER_00]: What do you think of this commercial?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think that's a that is a technique.
[SPEAKER_00]: The other that I'm that I'm big on is
[SPEAKER_00]: which is sort of similar.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's net consumer takeaway, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: If I'm running an ad, or I do a video, it's exactly what you ask me.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's what do I want people to take away from that ad?
[SPEAKER_00]: What's the feeling?
[SPEAKER_00]: What's the quick response?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, oh, I just saw that thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: What's the takeaway?
[SPEAKER_00]: What's what?
[SPEAKER_00]: And it helps everyone gets, you know, all bogged down in what
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think you also need to take a step back.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's this Harvard Business School thing for startups.
[SPEAKER_00]: That balcony and dance floor.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you need to spend a ton of time on the dance floor, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Getting into everything.
[SPEAKER_00]: But then you got to raise up to the balcony.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think that these things help create framework for balcony raising.
[SPEAKER_00]: when we're in the absolute day-to-day, you know, 24-7, minutiae.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because without these exercises and I love that, I love that exercise.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's brand confusion, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think a lot of us, we don't, when we don't slow down enough guys and we don't go through these thought experiments like John is describing, what happens is people are confused as to who we are, what we actually do and why they should care.
[SPEAKER_03]: And even, you know, I go back to my insurance friends.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think there's an assumption that because I say I do insurance or I sell insurance or I own an insurance agency that people automatically assume what we do, what we sell, why we do it, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'll give you a case and point.
[SPEAKER_03]: My agency that I founded, Rogue Risk, we got a ton of inquiries for worker's compensation.
[SPEAKER_03]: And a lot of those inquiries were from businesses.
[SPEAKER_03]: that already had general liability or property insurance oftentimes with another independent insurance agent.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now, why in the world would they be reaching out via the internet to rogue risk, a digital insurance agency for workers' comp when the agent they're already working with most likely in their hometown sells that product?
[SPEAKER_03]: And the reason was that agency had never positioned themselves either as a commercialized specialist with broad coverages or as someone who could sell workers, like they literally never positioned themselves as that thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: So even though the person in some cases have been doing business with them for five, seven, 10 years, they did not know.
[SPEAKER_03]: So they're reaching out to us, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: So think about that, you're losing business
[SPEAKER_03]: because you didn't think through the positioning and how do you get rid of the assumptions that how do you remove your assumptions that your audience knows what you do, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's these types of experiments.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's this kind of, and then Mark, tell me if I'm wrong here, but like... No, it's what you know what you do and makes
[SPEAKER_00]: And it makes it unique.
[SPEAKER_00]: What is it right?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not just that you sell insurance.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's here is how I position myself Here is what's unique about the way I do that versus my competitor.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and then you got it right and this I think this is the part and and you know here's where I have a question for you is
[SPEAKER_03]: Often times we say something once and we assume everyone heard us, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: So just maybe level set for both Rome, maybe some of your past experience with Patrick and Fighter, or even like the NBA, like, God, like, take, I'll give a case in point, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: I made the comment before about how,
[SPEAKER_03]: There's no iconic dunks anymore, and you immediately react it, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: So if you're listening, you may not have picked up on it, but when I said that, if you're watching on YouTube, you saw John had a immediate physical reaction to that, which tells me, I just am not aware of these iconic dunks, not that they're not happening, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: So my point being, here's the MBA, here's one of the most marketed sports entertainment organizations in the world, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And there are iconic things happening that I'm not seeing.
[SPEAKER_03]: So if a sports fan is not seeing me think about how many times you got to talk about your product for people to see, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And it just, yeah, as an executive at AOL, when we we spun out of time, we were going to stand the low in public company, maybe 5,000 people.
[SPEAKER_00]: I felt my job was simply to repeat everything all the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: that like that that was my job just in different ways the different people in different media just keep saying it's so important to a lot to a line 5,000 people and this idea of winner I said that right how could they not I mean
[SPEAKER_00]: Particularly in this day and age where, you know, it's the attention economy and and and we've got dopamine Attention hits all over the place you you have to say things repeatedly.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if there's a particular number but far more than you want to and far more than you think is necessary And that is so that is yes, whether that's
[SPEAKER_00]: You're advertising whether it's internal communication.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's any any form of communication repetition is your friend Yeah, I I I've talking to my kids yet.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let me see that again.
[SPEAKER_00]: Your petition is your friend It's funny.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was I was So I'm divorced and you know my kids obviously they know but like you know I they know that I
[SPEAKER_03]: that you know I'm dating a woman now or whatever and you know we're talking in general something came up on the TV and we were talking about you know how do you get women's attention right that's that's that's the question that came up from my 12 and 10-year-old um you look like you Ryan cheese every what what what what else what what else we need
[SPEAKER_03]: Hopefully they'll be good looking guys better look in the me, but um, they I said look I said the easiest way.
[SPEAKER_03]: Say her name seven times while you talk to her.
[SPEAKER_03]: Say her name.
[SPEAKER_03]: You just say, you know, high Sarah, how are you today?
[SPEAKER_03]: Hey Sarah, what'd you get on the test?
[SPEAKER_03]: Hey Sarah, you're going home room.
[SPEAKER_03]: Hey Sarah, you know, you just, you, I go, I promise you she will know who you are and you will, you know, you're most likely got her attention.
[SPEAKER_03]: Doesn't mean she's going to say yes to the date, doesn't mean she's going to like you, but if you say her name, particularly her name over and over again, right, was, you know, maybe surrounded by something either that you noticed about her or that she's doing that's engaging, right, you're drawing her in, you're building a brand of understanding and caring and attention.
[SPEAKER_03]: And now you've said it, I go, she ain't gonna forget you.
[SPEAKER_03]: In fact, you will probably have wedged yourself so deeply into her subconscious that you can't help but be interested in you.
[SPEAKER_03]: I said, but this works, you know, my son's sneaky and bad, but guys, it does work.
[SPEAKER_03]: If you're struggling with women, that does work.
[SPEAKER_03]: Doesn't work every time.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, so I'm gonna play podcast host.
[SPEAKER_00]: Does that translate to business for you as well?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the same concept?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, really.
[SPEAKER_00]: Does that translate to business Ryan Handley?
[SPEAKER_00]: Does that?
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'll tell you, so, you know, one of the things that I used to teach, and the reason for telling that story is because it does translate to business.
[SPEAKER_03]: So one of the things that I taught at road risk with inbound sales was always, always mentioning their name, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Always saying their name.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we had a whole script.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, I built the most efficient and effective inbound sales flow.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's called the master of the closed flow in history.
[SPEAKER_03]: We were we were closing 89% of all qualified leads on inbound calls.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was what allowed us to scale so fast and it was all based in human psychology.
[SPEAKER_03]: and one of those psychological principles was was being very specific in this case with the name and repeating it over and over packaged around thoughtful comments, open-ended questions, et cetera, et cetera.
[SPEAKER_03]: So you package these things together, but it was the repetition that started to lock into their brain.
[SPEAKER_03]: This person knows me, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: If I use your name, John, John, over and over again, you can't help but start to think,
[SPEAKER_03]: Ryan knows me.
[SPEAKER_03]: He understands me.
[SPEAKER_03]: He wants to be, you know, he's showing interest in me, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And it draws you in, and we have to do this, but a thousand times, a thousand times over, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: For our ICP, our preferred client, our preferred customer, because like one social media message,
[SPEAKER_03]: It's only going to be seen by this tiny little fraction, and even there, no one's going to remember it because it's only once.
[SPEAKER_03]: So even if that tiny fraction was the only fraction that saw your message every time out, you still have to hit them 5, 7, 10, 11, God knows how many times today with how many other distractions they have.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like regardless if you're marketing the MBA or you're marketing a software product or you're marketing Rome or you're marketing yourself to the other sex right right it's this repetition and and show of interest that that wedges you into their brain and if you're not willing to put in that work you simply just you will not stand out you will not get that brand recognition and I'm I'm petition is your friend as I have said four or five times already
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I want to be respectful of your time, and this has been incredible.
[SPEAKER_03]: Particularly with Rome.
[SPEAKER_03]: I will have links guys in the show notes, whether you're watching on YouTube, or whatever, click those links you'll be able to go through schedule a demo.
[SPEAKER_03]: I highly recommend if you have a remote workforce, and I'm going to do just a little bit of sales job.
[SPEAKER_03]: And look, guys, in transparency, I told you I am partnered with Rome.
[SPEAKER_03]: There are sponsor of the show, but I want it to bring John in.
[SPEAKER_03]: Hopefully you took that this was way more than just a commercial for Rome Your experience is incredible.
[SPEAKER_03]: We could have dove into so many more topics But I do believe in what you're doing and what you're building because I look at our world in We had this huge move to to fully remote with COVID, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Just push us all the way to fully remote, which is great But it feels to me like the pendulum is starting to swing back to a true hybrid in person remote world and then you have layered
[SPEAKER_03]: In what remote actually means there's hybrid two days a week three days out.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's there's out all the time There's out all the time and in a different area.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's out all the time and in a different country and to me and in all the different tools that I've worked with There's no tool.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's no platform that I believe marries
[SPEAKER_03]: a fully in person, the conversations and digital tools necessary for fully in person all the way to fully remote international that can take any one of those scenarios and all those scenarios and allow a team to interact with each other, you know, not to mention it replaces calendly, loom, all these tools and one.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's been an incredible partnership, it's been an incredible tool for my business, but not just Rome,
[SPEAKER_03]: Where can people go deeper into your world because you have so much experience and I know you continue to share it?
[SPEAKER_03]: How do they follow along with your thoughts and what you have going on?
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, feel free to, I'm a reasonable LinkedIn poster, so follow me on LinkedIn.
[SPEAKER_00]: Also, just email me at room, John J. and at RO.am.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love helping entrepreneurs.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love helping people to the extent that I can.
[SPEAKER_00]: So please reach out and, yeah, let's see if there's anything we can do together or if there's
[SPEAKER_03]: I appreciate you so much, John, this has been incredible conversation and your flexibility through our power outage of the Ampac's note as well, so I wish you know about the best man we'll talk again in the future.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks, brother.
[SPEAKER_00]: Appreciate it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.