[SPEAKER_01]: Hello everybody, welcome back to the pod.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is Tom.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for listening.
[SPEAKER_01]: As always, this is a podcast with a dog owner who has some separation anxiety issues with her dog because of her own anxiety.
[SPEAKER_01]: This dog was attacked when he was younger and it has caused
[SPEAKER_01]: separation anxiety but also reactivity and also the dog goes to a trainer and the dog isn't reactive with them so we're diving through what real separation anxiety is and why it's actually created which you know as you guys may or may not know all signs kind of lead back towards the owner so how do we as humans as owners create anxiety within our own dogs from our own behaviors that's what this podcast is all about thank you guys so much for listening as always and enjoy the podcast
[SPEAKER_02]: is six and I got him as a rescue and he was a puppy like a new puppy.
[SPEAKER_02]: And he's a I think he's we're not really sure but pretty sure he's like a great peer and he's and probably has some poodle in him because he doesn't shit.
[SPEAKER_02]: came with a big personality.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so when he was a puppy, we got on a December 2019 and then COVID happened and my husband has a very serious heart condition.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we kind of like didn't do much because we're worried about him until we were able to get him a
[SPEAKER_02]: vaccine back in the day because we were just worried about his healthy now.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we all kind of like hungered in and so I think probably a that's part of it is that Wayne's like I've so I've had like Wayne's my fourth dog as my own personal dog as an adult.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I just think his bringing was a little bit different maybe than my other dogs and in that sense and then but during that time I signed him
[SPEAKER_02]: Sort of like from the very beginning, like whenever he would see another dog, he would just kind of go bananas.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so we did a group class and like when we first went to the group class, he would act like a maniac kind of, but then he just like kind of calm down.
[SPEAKER_02]: They did like gentle leaders there and all of that kind of stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I did that with him and then.
[SPEAKER_02]: proceed forward and he just like really still was super like every time he would see a dog, he would go crazy.
[SPEAKER_02]: He would also get super reactive when anybody will come to our door and act crazy.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we ended up standing him to this place for training when he was probably like one and a half to years old for two weeks.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I told her then like these are the issues we're having with him and so
[SPEAKER_02]: When we came back, she had definitely done training with him.
[SPEAKER_02]: He came back with like a tilt collar and like a long thing that I think she probably used to like correct him with, you know, like the end of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like a leaf or what do you mean?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, like a leaf that was like on a tilt collar, but it was like a thick rope type thing, you know.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think like the end of it was like used like maybe like for correction for him, you know, like while she was walking in wood or whatever.
[SPEAKER_02]: But she, she,
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, her feedback was, yeah, he doesn't have any problems with any of the other dogs here, he's totally fine, no big deal, and so he came home and we practiced a lot of the stuff that she taught us, you know, like getting him to sit in place and all of that kind of stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, which we were concerned about because like, you know, I don't want to get hit by a car or anything, obviously, and when he would approach other dogs, he wouldn't like attack the dogs or anything like that, but he runs up to the dog and he gets like right up in their face that stands like right in front of them.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so then, um, like flash forward to summer 2024, we're still like trying to work with him, walking on my own issues like super difficult.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, and like any time you would see a dog, he would just, he's a big dog and so he'd like who really hard, like pull people over, you know, like, if they're walking in like my daughter and stuff and just go bananas.
[SPEAKER_02]: And like one time I was sitting in a chair and a dog went by and he pulled me out of the chair.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I asked a friend who had this really great results with her dog for training.
[SPEAKER_02]: So in the summer of 2024, we sent him to this place for training for three
[SPEAKER_02]: So he went there and was there for three weeks, and they introduced the mini educator and a prom collar for that training.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then during that time, while he was gone, my other dog got really sick and she died.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, like when he came back, she was gone and she got cancer and she died.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so he came back and he came back like with the training and she came and trained us on the mini educator and everything.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I kept telling her that one of my biggest issues with him was, I was concerned with him the way he would react obviously when people would come to the door.
[SPEAKER_02]: But like I also can't walk him, you know, like because you just go so crazy.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so anyway, so he came home from that and we did all the things she told us to do.
[SPEAKER_02]: I got like the bed she told me to get
[SPEAKER_02]: And so since then, like, he's there's definitely improvement in him and he definitely responds to the many education like his recall is really good with it like outside, you know, and then after my dog died, you know, he, he has severe separation anxiety now like every time I leave he freaks out.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I started this thing after my dog died because it felt so bad about my dog and I felt like I was trying to help Wayne.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I started doing this like walking thing where I walked a thousand miles with him last year to try and just like, I don't know, I think a lot of this has to do with me.
[SPEAKER_02]: I guess part of that is because I have like, we're going to say like, I guess one of the things I'm missing is is that during all of this, and like after the training and stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like one time we were walking in the woods and a dog came up out of the woods and came up to us and my dog the same thing always does like he came he was not at least he came up to us and my dog, you know, was face to face with them and then that dog jumped on my dog's back and attacked him and then another time a friend of ours dog who is a male dog who is a big dog and my dog.
[SPEAKER_02]: My dog came home with like, you know, needed to go to the emergency room because he had a gash on his side from a dog bites.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, so, like, those are my experiences.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, I think I have a lot of anxiety about all of it now when I'm walking my dog.
[SPEAKER_02]: But the feedback from the woman when she brought him back after being there for three weeks was like, he had no problem at all with other dogs.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, she would take him out in public and he was totally fine and she would have him at her house.
[SPEAKER_02]: And one of the other things that we did was like, we son of like, doggy daycare to try and like, I know a lot of people hate dog daycare, but we son there.
[SPEAKER_02]: And he didn't have any interaction like no negative interactions with any dogs there, but he sat by the gate the entire time and barked because he just wanted like us.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so they called us and eventually were like, you can't bring him here anymore because he just sits by the gate and barks the entire time.
[SPEAKER_02]: So,
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, I'm kind of in this place where I'm moving from where I currently live to Boulder, Colorado, I'm here right now, and I spent a lot of time walking my dog.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm doing the thousand mile walking thing with them again, and most of it when I'm in Tennessee where I live normally I do in the woods, but here everybody, you know, you can go get a tag and everybody has their dogs off leash.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I just like,
[SPEAKER_02]: It's totally stressing me out because I don't know how to deal with it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I just don't want to have like this situation anymore.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I just want to like help my dog and help me so that we can have a much calmer existence.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what do you think the the biggest issue is right now?
[SPEAKER_01]: How today?
[SPEAKER_01]: What is your biggest issue?
[SPEAKER_02]: My biggest issue is like his reactivity to other dogs.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: So
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when you're out for a walk with him, let's just break down that when you're out for a walk with him, and he sees another dog, what does he do and what do you do?
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, he usually like he'll start like breathing harder and depending on like the dog.
[SPEAKER_02]: So for example,
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I usually reroute and like try and walk away from like I'll just take a left if that dog is coming towards us.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll reroute onto a different thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: But like I won't walk on a trail with him if there's off-leaf dogs because I don't know how to do that.
[SPEAKER_02]: But usually like if I encounter a dog I if we're on a trail like in Tennessee I step up off of the trail and let those people pass by
[SPEAKER_02]: give us space from the other dog.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so the other day, we were downtown because there was, and there was much people down there who was a bunch of people protesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: And tons of people had their dogs there.
[SPEAKER_02]: And overall, I was like, oh, okay, this is going pretty well.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then there was a dog that came up.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I just didn't see it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I guess I like lost my,
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, attention to him for like a second.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the next thing I knew, they were like, like, that dog was barking at my dog.
[SPEAKER_02]: My dog was pulling and barking at that dog.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then when I pull my dog away, that's the other thing is that he makes sounds like he sounds like he's gonna kill that dog.
[SPEAKER_02]: But he's never done anything to another dog.
[SPEAKER_02]: But he makes sounds like that in barks like, like he sounds like he's vicious.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: So right now, it sounds like when you see another dog, what you do is you move off, especially when you're on a trail, you move over to the side of the trail, the dog's walk past, and you go on your way.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: What is your big problem with that in particular?
[SPEAKER_01]: What do you want to change about that situation?
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I feel like I can't do that here in Boulder because everybody's dogs are off leash on the trails.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: So like, you know, and really just
[SPEAKER_02]: in the town, you know, but it's just like I just have to be super like hyper about it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't know, I guess I'm also a little bit worried, like it depends on the dog.
[SPEAKER_02]: I guess, and maybe that's true for all people with their dogs.
[SPEAKER_02]: Of like how that he reacts to a dog depends on the dog and how that dog reacts.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't know if it's because he thinks he's in charge.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if the other dog isn't submissive, then he reacts.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: But.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I would just say this, I mean, we'll get to that in a minute about what you can do if your dog does react, but if you're walking or if you have a reactive dog and like reactive dogs are reactive dogs you can change you could change some of the reactivity you sometimes you can get rid of it completely sometimes you can manage it and other times you just you can't you got to just
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, kind of move with it and see what you can do.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of things that kind of go into this conversation, but from to me, you have a reactive dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you're going to go into places where there's going to be awfully dogs.
[SPEAKER_01]: My right.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just can't do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, right.
[SPEAKER_01]: So again, so we kind of come back to the same Yeah, the same scenario here.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's why I'm trying to figure out like right now what you're doing Makes sense to me you go you don't go into places where there's awfully stalk so that's out of the picture That's gone, okay, and then when you do see another dog you move off the trail you let them go and then you move on So what what is the what is the thing that you really want to focus on?
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I guess like maybe this plays into it too because like when I think about like a separation anxiety because he just like freaks out, you know, like whenever like if I leave the house like he when I come home, he's like panting and, you know, freaked out the entire time.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I don't know, maybe like all of it, including his reactivity, I feel like is like anxiety in him, you know, or so when he explained to me the separation and anxiety situation.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, so when I'm at home in Tennessee because that's the house that he knows like before when I had a dog another dog I don't like he didn't like he was not like that when we came home and I think it was because she was there too.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but after after she died.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, when I leave, he, you know, he, I don't videotapement home, but like when I came out here.
[SPEAKER_02]: So right now my husband's living in Boulder and I'm still living in Tennessee and I'm going to be moving out here later.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm just out here for like a month or two at a time.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I go back to Tennessee for my work.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so like when I get here, he.
[SPEAKER_02]: just I can't like it's like I video tape and like I videoed him when I left and he just housed and farx and cries the entire time of gone and like freaks you know it's freaked out the entire time I'm gone.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay so there's like there's three big things that go into separation anxiety like this and a lot of this I mean clinical separation anxiety isn't really this this is just your dog
[SPEAKER_01]: being unprepared, I think, like separation anxiety is, I mean, it's a form of it, but real separation anxiety is the dog breaking through the windows to get to you, being in pooping because they can't deal with life without you, self-harming themselves all the way.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I mean, I don't want to say this isn't a separate, I mean, it is, I'm just saying, it's, there's a spectrum of it, so there's, there's three big things for separation anxiety.
[SPEAKER_01]: The first thing is, well, the very first thing is crate training, that's huge, so put your putting your dog into a crate.
[SPEAKER_01]: To allow them to be a safe in a safe area is huge not that they're not going to bark and how in there because they could But that's just always a topic of discussion like so many dog owners that work with trainers they say hey, you know when I leave my dog Trash the house or does all the things that I want doesn't tell like that's necessarily it sounds like your dog is just how in a parking
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's the exercise component, which is really, really big, so making sure that your dog gets enough at least physical is the big one when you are leaving for a certain amount of time.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's important, like making sure, like, let's say you're leaving for work, like he has to get what he needs in order to be more successful.
[SPEAKER_01]: because he's basically saying like, hey, I'm bored and you know, we don't you know, we don't know what to do and I'm sitting here and now I'm halloween and blah, blah, blah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So with that being said,
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's important to kind of audit that, that's the first thing you should do is make sure that he gets a good amount of exercise because it's the same thing, it's exactly the same thing with people, like the more exercise they do, the better that they feel.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, and then the third thing which is usually the biggest is going to be relationship and exit.
[SPEAKER_01]: So relationships overall will predicate how dogs behave in general, not just singular things.
[SPEAKER_01]: So not just what my dog house, what's that mean about relationship, just it just means that
[SPEAKER_01]: your overall relationship when when you leave, you know your dog is because there's there's there's there's there's natural especially if your dog's if it's just you and your dog and there's not a bunch of other stuff going on.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's this natural attachment, you know, that's inevitable for sure like there's always going to be this you left I want to be with you always.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's natural.
[SPEAKER_01]: But once you get to the habitual barking and howling, especially if it continues for a long period of time, you know, to a point where it's a nuisance or, you know, it's causing issues for your dogs, state of mind, then after that, I think it's safe to say, like, okay, what do we need to do to help this dog's confidence?
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, for me, those are things that I would be looking at is what your relationship is with the dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, a lot of times, dog owners will kind of create this separation anxiety thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I see a lot of times when dog owners are very, they talk to their dog a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: They communicate with their dog a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: Chatter chatter chatter chatter chatter chatter chatter and so what ends up happening is is the dog picks up on that chatter They pick up on that constant like feedback loop So the dog the dog kind of feels it's kind of like when you're like when you want to hang up with somebody But they keep going and you're like just just trying to be polite like a lot of times dogs who have like and I've seen this Like over and over and over.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean for for a decade I've seen this happen like evidence
[SPEAKER_01]: That this is true where if a dog owner comes in and they have those conversations with the dog and And there's this there's a there's a really good Like definition here.
[SPEAKER_01]: I talked to my dogs every day, but I don't expect them to talk back Be I have really good training with them and see I don't do it all day, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So I might say hey, Broly, come on.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's go upstairs to my dog
[SPEAKER_01]: but I'm not going to drop a piece of paper on the ground, look at the dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, look, I dropped a piece of paper, but you won't that, but you can't because it's mine.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to pick it back up.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, you're so cute.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like once you start getting into that lane of that constant verbal contact with the dog,
[SPEAKER_01]: The dog doesn't have a sum up here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why are you so nervous?
[SPEAKER_01]: Why are you so anxious?
[SPEAKER_01]: Why is this?
[SPEAKER_01]: Why are you constantly, you know, be like, get on a plane and somebody's just, just, just, just, just, there's so many studies coming out about people are just, you wonder why that happens, is because they're anxious.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're nervous.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, so that's, I think that that's realistically like the biggest thing because dogs,
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, you know, to be fair, you know, you leave the house and if it's you and just your dog, your dog isn't actually going to be like, oh, that's a bummer.
[SPEAKER_01]: My best friend just laughed.
[SPEAKER_01]: I got nothing else to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, that's not going to go away, but like I said, I think the OSHA that I can't handle myself, that that code dependency routes from that constant contact of talking.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then there's, there is another piece to this though, it's not just the talking and it's not just the constant contact.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's also the training aspect.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's a big training aspect that happens here.
[SPEAKER_01]: So for an example, like people who, you know, have a, have a don't have training protocols with their dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: Does that make sense, like if you, if you, is so, for an example, like if you're not, if you don't have structure with your dog, that can cause these types of issues, and really what the root is, it's codependency, and it's, I need to be with you, and that I need to be with you is because insecurity.
[SPEAKER_01]: So again, we tell our dogs all day that we're nervous and we're in secure.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the dog picks up on that and you also make the dog an insecure nervous.
[SPEAKER_01]: So then you completely take away their confidence and that now they're co-dependent.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like people do this with, I mean, again, tons of evidence comes out.
[SPEAKER_01]: What would this do is like, the people do this where you have like this, the same person.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like two people are like the same, like, you know, negative Nancy's.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like those two kind of are always together.
[SPEAKER_01]: and so exactly so it's kind of like you're nervous we're nervous we're nervous we're nervous it's like so those are the three things exercise crate and your relationship and relationship is really again it's multifaceted it's not just oh you talk to your dog it's like no it's much more than that and of course there's context of how you talk to your dog how much you talk to your
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll just bring all this together and then we'll chat.
[SPEAKER_01]: Most people who have that separation anxiety is you leave in the dog, oh shit, what are you doing?
[SPEAKER_01]: Where are you going?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's an accumulation of lack of accountability.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we let the dog do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: They want when they want.
[SPEAKER_01]: They pull us on the leash.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're in front of us at the whole time.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're sniffing the whole time.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's zero engagement.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's zero structure.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's zero boundaries.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of chatter.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the dogs are constantly getting chatter.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're constantly like putting ourselves into the dog like, hey, I'm nervous.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just going to talk to you all day.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then there's also a in that relationship realm.
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, there's that there's like that there's the structure, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So just like a training aspect.
[SPEAKER_01]: So where do you think you fit in all that?
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, to be honest with you, well, in terms of the exercise thing, I think I'm pretty good at that because I mean, I like, I just got home from a five mile walk with him.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I walk him every day, like for a long period of time.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I definitely do it before I'm going to go somewhere.
[SPEAKER_02]: I like, plan it out.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think I'm pretty good about that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And when I do walk him, I'm like, you know, I from the training that I've done with him, you know, over the years, like he walks
[SPEAKER_02]: He does not walk in front of me.
[SPEAKER_02]: He walks right next to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: I keep him very tight and, you know, I use, I use the mini educator.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, you know, if I, like I just did it before because while you were talking, he got up and started to go over and he was getting ready to start to bark and I hit the sound thing and he came over and sat down.
[SPEAKER_03]: Good.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, so, and he definitely responds to it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like if I hit that button or if I do anything, he definitely responds to it very strongly.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, I would say that I'm much more likely to use it than my husband is.
[SPEAKER_02]: My husband doesn't do it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think he is much more lucid.
[SPEAKER_02]: You see with my husband than I am, but I do think, honestly, when you're talking about all that, I think I have like total anxiety.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that that's the part of it that's maybe feeding into into like why the trainers like, oh, he doesn't have any reactivity around dogs with me, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And he does with me.
[SPEAKER_02]: because I have anxiety because of like our past experiences.
[SPEAKER_02]: And he probably senses that I would imagine, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that's what I was going to say is so the relationship is an interesting concept of again that I've proofed out over the years because You know because it because of course I've before I tell people this advice.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've I've proofed it out, you know, all over many times and so I always do this test with relationships where if I go and take them or in your case a trainer goes and takes them and they're like we don't see any of this then it's a 100%
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't sometimes that doesn't mean that that's a problem, but in most cases it does, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So for an example, if you look at the coin kind of both ends, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: You could say, especially with a great Pyrenees mix,
[SPEAKER_01]: You could say, well, he just doesn't care about you guys, so he's not as protective, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: There is simplicity in that, but, and or more than likely, and more of what I see is dogs are typically more reactive because the owner has given them so much information that they don't understand, which is now made them anxious.
[SPEAKER_01]: So,
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I always like to be devils advocate there.
[SPEAKER_01]: That it's not always if your dog is reactive with this one person, then it's because of them or it's their fault or even it's bad.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just like, well, my dog, if my dog is a big protective dog and they only care, or they only react with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: So for an example, my dog only typically reacts to other dogs in my neighborhood.
[SPEAKER_01]: But if we're everywhere, anywhere else, he really doesn't care.
[SPEAKER_01]: so for me there's like that selection of like okay well that's interesting why is that why do they do that well because when when I'm walking around a neighborhood like dogs don't so so neighborhoods or where you walk like dogs don't understand like that's not your property right so if you walk so for me I walk in the same neighborhood the same loop the same route every day with my dog he's intact he peas on everything so he doesn't understand that that walk that road these other houses aren't his
[SPEAKER_01]: like he's out he's saying so but if I if I bring him outside of that area where he hasn't peed on everything and has seen it you know I walk him through times a day he doesn't give a shit so yeah and that and that's and again there's like we don't there's so much variance right dogs or this kind of changing thing especially with maturity and of course your other dog passing away that could that could that could put a ton of insecurity and lack of their
[SPEAKER_01]: As well, a lot of times other dogs are like the comfort at one and they kind of lead and the other dog follows and they're more confident.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've seen that with my own pack, with my pack.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've seen that before.
[SPEAKER_01]: So again, I just want to give you, I don't want to say, hey, this is how you're fall.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just want to say, if your dog is only reactive to you, chances are it's because of your relationship, but it doesn't always mean that that's like a...
[SPEAKER_01]: Because the way I look at it too is like, yeah, but also if you do have a protective dog, it could be just because they don't care too much about you or again likely it's just because the person who's handling that dog has good leadership has good handling skills, creates confidence doesn't.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, because sometimes you're a relationship with your dog is tainted because again, yeah, you kind of have this like really anxious You know Energy with the dog and and of course then they go out and because it's more likely that than anything you go out with your dog now all of a sudden They are
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, you know, because you got to look at it both ways, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So if so if you have a reactive dog and you hand the dog off to everybody in the dogs reactive with everybody, you would say, okay, for sure the dog just doesn't like other dogs or the dog is reacting towards other dogs, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think with you, from what you've said, you know, several times about, you know, you're suffering from your anxiety and how you go out and what you handle, I think it's really about how you're operating with the dog.
[SPEAKER_02]: Again, especially especially if you're going out and you're nervous like you said you are because of course Yeah, you know the dog can can feel yeah, yeah, of course Well, so let me can I just ask you this question like what then so And I think I know that this is like some places where I've made mistakes because like So like I have in my one memory I have is like so there are times
[SPEAKER_02]: where we've encountered, this was after the dog came up out of the woods and attacked my dog, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And at that time, when I think about when that happened, right, that dog ran up, I was shocked.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was kind of freaked out, like, and I just kind of stood there, just waiting to see what would happen, instead of doing anything.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then that dog jumped up my dog and attacked my dog.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so then I take to the dog and talk about that off my dog.
[SPEAKER_02]: But so then the next time we encountered a dog that was
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I mean, I, I hate it when I think about this because I know I did the wrong thing, but like I just like
[SPEAKER_02]: It was like I kind of like squinch my eyes like afraid to see what was going to happen and I did like do anything, but like what what I should do is like get in between my dog and that other dog, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Such a good question and I feel you because this is it is tough.
[SPEAKER_01]: Such a good question.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I just think there is no okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: to operate sometimes you have a very small window of operate timing wise right so if a dog is actively running at you you have seconds to decide what you want to do if you see another dog you know kind of awfully sure you see another dog coming in the woods or walking with their owner or whatever then you have some time to go okay and what you're doing now in my opinion is
[SPEAKER_01]: is the best thing to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: You see another dog you avoid.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a reason for that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So sometimes I get a question on, well, I want to work on the reactivity, though, and it's like, that's good, and that's fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: But you don't want to go out and work on reactivity with a strange dog you don't know, because then you're just going to end up with
[SPEAKER_01]: Alright, I'm going to push through this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to, you know, try to make this a good experience.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to work on my leave it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to work on my rewards.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to work on my correction.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the other dog just comes barely and over and makes it a really bad unfair situation, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So when you're working on leash reactivity, you pick your battles.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're out for a walk and you see another dog leashed up on the other side of the road, work through it for sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like as much as you can, but when you're out and you see an off leash dog, or you see a dog on a trail that's likely off leash, or you're in a tight space, I always just take the higher road.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I just say, even if I don't, here's the thing, as I do that even if I have puppies or
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, non-reactive dogs.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, I don't know this dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is not a good situation.
[SPEAKER_01]: If it goes wrong, it's because of me.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you have the time to avoid another dog that you don't know, you're flipping a coin, 50-50 chance it's going to go good or bad.
[SPEAKER_01]: So just from owning dogs my entire life, and then of course being a professional dog trainer for the last 10 plus years,
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't matter what dog I have with me.
[SPEAKER_01]: If I go out and I see an off-leash dog, I am doing everything I can to avoid.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll turn around, I'll go the other way.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's nothing wrong with that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So just, you know, feel good about doing that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: So to answer your question about if there's a dog that approaches you just getting between
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, to a certain degree.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'll paint you a picture.
[SPEAKER_01]: If I'm out with my dog or a client, any dog, if I'm out with a dog and an off-leash dog approaches, I am, if I have time to go the other way, we will, we've already established that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But if I don't, where maybe if I turned around, it would make us vulnerable or make the situation worse, or whatever, or if I just left time because the dog's right in front of us, or they're chasing us, or running after us,
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, I've done a couple of different things getting in between yelling screaming kicking like hey get out of here is especially if the dog is is not friendly Is great.
[SPEAKER_01]: So hey go go go go I've also if you're if you're walking in places especially and it doesn't matter Tennessee or Colorado They're both you know every everywhere on the you know it's a pretty much dog friendly, but
[SPEAKER_01]: So I would just say I always suggest to my clients carry halt spray.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now Okay, halt spray is like a pepper spray specifically formulated for dogs and the reason why I'm saying this is because I'm not saying every Hopefully stalk needs to get sprayed what I'm saying is is if you're in a situation and there's an off leaves dog that
[SPEAKER_01]: got out of somebody's backyard or is two miles ahead of their owner or is just, you know, escaped.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a good place to use it if the dog is a threat.
[SPEAKER_01]: But again, it sounds like you have so many different good options.
[SPEAKER_01]: Move away, avoid.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you do see a dog that's approaching,
[SPEAKER_01]: I would, I put the, I take my dog with my left hand and I just put my dog behind me and I get in front of my dog and I deflect at, at, go, go, I've also done this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've also, I've seen, I was walking in my neighborhood last year, I think, and this, I don't, I don't know where this dog live, but this dog came ripping out of this like,
[SPEAKER_01]: This road, it was running right towards me in my two dogs and I was with my wife and my kids at the time the strollers And the dog was ripping at at us, but I could tell the dog was friendly like everything about the dog was like wiggling and Excited and I just so I was like, okay, so that gave me time I put my dogs in a downstairs and then I went up.
[SPEAKER_01]: I always carry an extra leash with me And I go up and I just get out my knees a body and the dog just came up to me like my face
[SPEAKER_01]: Give it back to the owner and away she went.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, so it's kind of like, what do you do when somebody tries to fight you or what are you doing to car accident or what are you doing like you could prep all day about what's going to happen, but I always like to have a mixed bag of
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, this is what I would do, but ultimately, avoid, get yourself in between as long as it's not a big aggressive dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll just tell you a story.
[SPEAKER_01]: My veteran really quick.
[SPEAKER_01]: My veterinarian at the time, he's never tired to tell me that.
[SPEAKER_01]: He has two pit bulls, and he was out for a walk, and there were off leash dogs, like running around ramped, and he was hiking in the woods in the mountains.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the dogs came running up aggressively, and he said he just let his dogs go because he said Well, I thought about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and in there's it and to be honest, there's a time in a place Like yeah, and he told me because I was shocked.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like really and he's like yeah He's like if we were in the woods we were by ourselves If I tried to get my dogs away they would have been very vulnerable.
[SPEAKER_01]: They would have gotten attacked.
[SPEAKER_01]: They would have gotten
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, because when you're pulling on the leash, of course, you're just exposing them.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, they're basically stuck with their hands tied behind their backs.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, that it's kind of the same thing with people too, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like it's the same situation that you would do with people, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And we talk about this a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm in, I do a lot of, like,
[SPEAKER_01]: you try to avoid every conflict you possibly can and at the last second you're basically like okay now I have to defend myself here is what I would do and so I thought so same thing for me if I was out with my dog especially my big guy and another dog came up aggressive trying to hurt me or my other dog
[SPEAKER_01]: I would let him go because he would be able to protect himself and It'd be different again if you had like a teacup Yorkie that you can just stick in your sweatshirt, you know Right, yeah, you don't I don't So yeah, so you so so I would just say like What gave me really good confidence going out truthfully was having that halt spray knowing like oh god for vented a dog You know
[SPEAKER_01]: But just having kind of a mix bag and mentally going out and I know that this sounds bad, but like a lot of times I go through life like, okay, if this happened, this is what I'll do.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you kind of just like when you're out for a walk You go, oh, okay, it says the situation.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know if there's an off-leash dog talk away move away go the other direction if an off-leash dog approaches
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, really don't hysterically yell in the screen, but just try to scare the other dog away.
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of times this draws attention to people, because people are, you know, they don't, they don't pay attention, maybe they're out to, they ran into the garage to grab something quick and their dog took off out of the yard and they didn't realize that their dog was gone.
[SPEAKER_01]: So a lot of times I'm hollering just so the dog owner can But I think everything you're doing is good because then you pull away so so again in that situation You're not trying to say like hey, how can I stop my dog from being reactive because that's a very Normal situation Yeah, so well I do feel like well one of the things like side note to that is that like I feel like nobody's paying attention here Everybody's like on their phone and their dog is like
[SPEAKER_02]: On a leash, but it's like very, you know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, do it on the right.
[SPEAKER_02]: And they're not playing attention to it at all.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I,
[SPEAKER_02]: That's partly why I just always avoid because I don't, I mean, I just do it anyway, but I, so another question leading into that that I have is so like I friends that live here because I used to live here a long time ago and I have a lot of friends that live here and they have dogs and so like when you brought up that thing about higher dog like goes bananas about your dogs in the neighborhood like my dog does that to their dogs that live in our neighborhood and when he sees those dogs he like
[SPEAKER_02]: He acts like crazy to talk, you know, in anyone he sees those dogs, like walk past or a house or whatever, or whatever, whenever he sees them, those dogs and the ones that make get the biggest reaction from him.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I think that makes me nervous.
[SPEAKER_02]: But like, for example, when he's not on a leash, he's like, like, when he goes to like the dog daycare, what he doesn't do that anymore because they take him out because he was,
[SPEAKER_02]: not doing anything except for sitting by the gate and not engaging.
[SPEAKER_02]: But like he doesn't do anything to other dogs, like if he's not on a leash like in a space where he's free, like you said like letting go of the leash or whatever.
[SPEAKER_02]: But like, can I, is that what I should do with my friends here if they want to introduce their dog to my dog just fine?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I'd make me nervous to do it at my house, because this isn't even going to be territorial about our yard.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, usually like I always answer the question of you want all the cards to be stacked with you not against you.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, most of the time, yeah, it kind of just depends on the personality of the dog, of course.
[SPEAKER_01]: But if you want it to go like the best you can, what I do is I find a fence and I let the dogs get introduced through the fence so that way you guys can just drop the leashes and let dogs be dogs without the anxiety of the people.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, but if you can't do that, then you just say, hey, let's meet at the park at 7 or whatever, and then you guys meet at the park, and then you go for your walk.
[SPEAKER_01]: But the only caveat to this is just, for example, if somebody's like, hey, let's walk our dogs together, like dog trainers, we all have this like understanding like dogs, they don't meet, they don't, we just, we're not, we deal with too much stuff, so we're like, hey, the dogs are just gonna,
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like if I walked into my facility with my dogs and somebody else had a dog, we wouldn't say, hey, let's see if they can play.
[SPEAKER_01]: We would just go about our business, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Handle our own dogs and do our own thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what you should do is make sure that you're choosing dogs that aren't going to make things worse for you is what I'm trying to say.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, so if you have a friend that has a neutral dog and older dog, a dog that doesn't really care too much Yeah, you can meet and then you guys can just walk together, you have your dog, they have their dog and you just kind of play it out to see how it goes And a lot of times it's kind of like a
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, I mean, you know, if you read dog body language, you can tell rather or not, it's going well, but personally, I just try to find a fence if you're unsure, just try to find a fence and have them meet through the fence, because if it doesn't go good, you know, one or both,
[SPEAKER_02]: I can't do anything to each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, they might snap and growl and hit the fence and growl, and you're like, all right, whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: You guys want to be crazy.
[SPEAKER_01]: That doesn't, here's the thing though.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you have good obedience and you have good control, that doesn't mean you still can't go for a walk.
[SPEAKER_01]: It just means that they're not going to go play.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or you kind of just, you vibe check both the dogs so that way you can,
[SPEAKER_01]: sometimes if like I have like my staff all have dogs of course at my training facility and my dog will play with some of their dogs and so I know you know who's you know what I mean like I already know who's around and what we can do like if we want to burn energy or something but I just my guess my point is it's not the end of the world if they don't get along so
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but like do you think it's okay?
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, like and I get it with like the fence, but like I think my point is that like and I think part of this is because of like the experience that we've had like Yeah, I'm getting attacked like when he's on a leash like I think it's like
[SPEAKER_02]: He's like more leash reactive than that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So to me, it seems like I need to introduce someone he isn't on a leash.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's better for sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: The leash, so the leash can create some serious, and again, it depends on the personality, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So I did a podcast recently about this that there's three different reasons why a dog is reactive.
[SPEAKER_01]: The protectiveness, real aggression, or a dog just being overly stimulated, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's either the dog is a big protective dog, and that doesn't always mean they're aggressive.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's mean they're always going to, you know, I think you said the same thing about your dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, he's never going to, he's never, simply with my dog, like, my dog can be reactive sometimes.
[SPEAKER_01]: But,
[SPEAKER_01]: He also has never bitten another dog or another person and he plays with dogs.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just a matter of a lot of, for him in particular, he goes down like the protective route where he's like, I'm big and protective and I'm suspicious about everything and I must do this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so, so then you go through this process of making sure that you're selective about who the dog is introduced to.
[SPEAKER_01]: In your case, I would say if you feel like he's just being big and protective, then I found out really, really quick, it doesn't matter if you have a good relationship or not.
[SPEAKER_01]: Some dogs are just like, hey, this is what I was born to do and you're not going to strip that from me.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, things that you can do is if you want dog, if you want your dog to meet another dog, especially if they had a bad encounter,
[SPEAKER_01]: So sometimes that happens when my clients too is, you know, my dog was fine and then all of a sudden we had a we had an incident and now my dog is more reactive and that's makes sense right like the dog was like, oh, I don't care about other dogs and then all of a sudden another dog bit due dog and then of course now they're like very reactive and suspicious and fearful and
[SPEAKER_01]: unsure, which makes total sense, same thing for us, like if we walked through it, you know, if we walked into a store and, you know, something fell on us, we probably would be like, you know, ducking every time we went in.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think it's important for you to pick your battles.
[SPEAKER_01]: Instead of trying to overcome
[SPEAKER_01]: everything.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think you just have to have very, that's what's helped me with some, with some dogs where I'm like, okay, we need to be realistic here and we need to be fair.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I don't want to go through life trying to think that.
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, everything is fine and we're never going to see a reaction again or whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just like each individual scenario is going to be different.
[SPEAKER_01]: So again, let me give you an example.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you go out for a walk and you see an awfully stock, we're turning around.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you go out and you see another dog and they're on-lation, they're mannered, you're going to work through that to see that's where you can start working on reactivity and doing all the right things, like making sure you're correcting the dog, making sure that the dog knows what they're supposed to be doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, making sure they have a good heal, making sure they have a good leave it, you could be using the E collar for that correction.
[SPEAKER_01]: You could be using obedience to counter, putting your dog into a sit or a down or even luring dog with food.
[SPEAKER_01]: To kind of push them through the scenario.
[SPEAKER_01]: I call it constructive avoidance.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's a lot of different things that you can do to kind of push through that, but if you do have a friend that has a dog and you want to introduce them, you know, you can also get an X-pen.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, if you have a lot of friends with dogs and it's like a regular thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's X pens that you can buy, which essentially is like a baby gate fence, so it's it's like you buy it and it comes in panels and you can just create a circle with it or you can create a wall with it, but a lot of times I'll just put it in a circle and I'll put my dog in there or my client's dog in there and I'll just start working another dog around just to kind of catch the vibe a little bit just to see.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I'm like, oh, I think they're okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let them go nose to nose and then if they go nose to nose, you guys drop the leash, you know, and you're fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: But honestly, a lot of times we just, you go for a walk, you find a fence, you know, a park, tennis court, whatever.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: So can I just ask you about that then?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, what is the whole, like, because my dog does that?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, what is the whole, like, he goes up to their face and like,
[SPEAKER_02]: stands at their thing like see what is he waiting for like when he does that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's tough to say without without seeing it and without knowing the personality of the dog because I have dogs that will stand there and I'm like okay they're about the snap and they don't and they've just proven me over the years like they just stand like they're going to snap and other dogs will stand like that and then they snap so it's really tough to say you know dogs are very surprising
[SPEAKER_01]: most but you have to you have to look outliers like what's common and what's not that's how you're able to really group things together to say confidently like this is what's going on and this is going to happen a lot of times here's the picture so two dogs meet one of them sticks their head way up high and tries to put their head over the other dog or they stick their chest out
[SPEAKER_01]: behavior behind that at its absolute core is hey, what's up?
[SPEAKER_01]: What are we going to do?
[SPEAKER_01]: Then the next level is sometimes it goes into play bow and then zoomies together.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes it goes into a fight.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes it go and then the third would be, a lot of it here's how it goes.
[SPEAKER_01]: The dogs go up, they posture up, I'm big, no I'm big, no I'm big, no I'm big, no I'm big, no I'm big,
[SPEAKER_01]: And they kind of say each other up, and then they switch where they go to butt, like they both simply show their butts a little bit of tail wag, they do that for a couple minutes, and then they just kind of go off.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's basically them going like, hey, what's up for you?
[SPEAKER_01]: Nice to meet you.
[SPEAKER_01]: My name is this.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like them going They're meeting for the first time.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're just checking each other out, getting to know each other, and then they just go on about their way.
[SPEAKER_01]: So those are those are the common three things that'll happen and what predicates that is your dog's personality, your dog's breed, your dog's age, the environment that they're in and what you're doing as a dog owner.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's why it's like there's you know there's so many different variables that can make that situation go in all three of those directions.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well, I've seen him do it like, you know, in the instances when we like, whatever, when in jobs or like, like when he busted out of our yard, when he was younger before we, you know, I don't even like let him out of the yard down like I just, I never let him, you know, out of like, without me or whatever, but, but he does that to jobs.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I've seen like some don't just stand there, but like the jobs that we've encountered, like in the woods that we've had
[SPEAKER_02]: The ones I regret the most he did that and then those dogs like jumped like that one dog jumped on him started attacking him and then the other dog like and then he We asked back when they started doing sure good.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, I mean, what you want is he in is he fixed yes
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because I was going to say some I've had dogs in my day cares over the years that get targeted by other dogs because they're not fixed.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I've had to actually kick like some of my best best best day care dogs out because they kept getting targeted for some reason and I was like, I don't know what it is, but we have 40 dogs in here every day and all the new dogs try to go after your dog and I don't want your dog hurt.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's weird.
[SPEAKER_01]: That hasn't happened in a very long time, but
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, yeah, I've also seen it just like with kids like the same thing like shy kids sometimes will get picked on or, you know, taking advantage of some dogs or just targets a lot of times that has to do with hormones and testosterone and
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, male and female type thing like that does happen quite often like that's that's a more common thing like intact males typically don't get along typically They can but typically they don't especially if they're like a big you know like blockheaded big stubborn dog
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, so so that's kind of how it goes is and that can that can throw dog off too Like if the dog comes up in postures and kind of stands tall and goes Yeah, it's kind of like the wild west drunk gun draw Where exactly what it is and he's just standing there Yeah, yeah, and then yeah
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so so you just have to have the right dog like if that's the thing is you just have to know your dog like if you're if you let's put it this way if you had a dog Who went up and did that but then played every single time you would feel super confident going in.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah Like you saw him doing it like always about to play bow because I've seen that like yeah, and that's the thing with like the dog stuff is you have to
[SPEAKER_01]: I've seen it happen exactly all three of those things and the only thing that makes those different is what I said before.
[SPEAKER_01]: It depends on the personality, the breed, the age, the environment, and if the dog is fixed or not.
[SPEAKER_01]: All of those things matter.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've seen again the playbows, I've seen the fights, and I've seen the
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, see you later, you know, and you just got to know your dog, you know, it's again, it's the same exact thing with people right like the same thing if if you took a if like you could take an experiment with people and you're going to get a different response every time like you walked into it like if you did a an experiment
[SPEAKER_01]: Behavioral experiment where you walked into a coffee shop and dropped your books like you're going to get somebody's going to help you You're going to get somebody's going to walk over you and you're going to get somebody who is going to ignore you completely And it just depends like who's around and what happens and whatever So anyway, it's it's tough to say Can I ask you one more question regarding that?
[UNKNOWN]: So
[SPEAKER_02]: In this, like, let's say that I'm in a situation where I'm like, I'm introducing my dog to another dog and and they're like whatever and but I don't have my leash because he's definitely more react about it, so I'm giving them the opportunity and it and like if he starts to like have like the behavior that I feel concerned about that I don't want him to be doing, can I correct him with the with the e-collar during that moment, my husband thinks it will act exacerbated make it worse.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, okay, so let me just get it clear.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, say like, when you come and correct them or not.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me, let me get it clear.
[SPEAKER_01]: So your dog is meeting another dog and you're unsure of how it's gonna go.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you correct the dog with the e-colour to get the dog back to you.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's not an issue.
[SPEAKER_02]: Or no, like, let's say like, there, if, I'm just like playing it out of my head, like, okay, I'm introducing him like, if there's like growling or it seems like
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not going like if like I'm worried about how it's going and he's with that dog and I want him to come back over to kind of like take it down and not so I'm like, would you use the e-collar to like call him back or you know whatever like and like my husband thinks that if if that if the tension is high it would make it worse than to use the e-collar than to not use the e-collar I mean like you know what I mean.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's a great question and it could be, yeah, I hate to answer it like this, but it, it, it's, it depends on the dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it could detonate or it can dissolve the goes of the two options.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it just depends.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so what you're saying is, and I've done this before with clients and my own dog over the years, the E collar is less likely.
[SPEAKER_01]: to detonate a dog to then react like if you have two dogs that when you have two dogs that are meeting for the first time again like that's that's where like the dog trainer me comes back and I'm like well you know if your dog is constantly getting into these hairy situations where
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, things might pop off.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you know, maybe it's not a good idea to be, you know, what's the ROI here and introducing our dogs to all these, you know, dogs if the risk is I don't even know because I don't do it, you know, and I mean, like, like I said, like when I take up when like when you went to dog To the daycare place, you didn't do anything.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that my other dog was there and done too.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I just haven't done it since and so I
[SPEAKER_02]: I just don't want to put him in a situation that's going to put him at risk, like that time when my husband took him with that, you know, our friend's dog and he came on him, you know, a thousand dollars later at the emergency, but and stitches in his side, you know, from getting fit.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought though, I would not have done that personally by the way.
[SPEAKER_02]: That was not like, if I had known about that, I would have not had a lot of that situation because I knew those two dogs wouldn't get along.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, there you go.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there you go.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's that's it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So in my opinion, I would say that again, just to answer your question, you could absolutely detonate a dog's reactivity by that detonation because they're basically like, again, think of that wild west kind of draw and then all of a sudden, like you touch them and they, you know, even if it's with the e-colour, they might just snap at the other dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it creates something that, unfortunately, just yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, anyway.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: That could be easily a thing that happens, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: OK. Yeah, I just didn't know because he does respond so well, too.
[SPEAKER_02]: When I use it, like, even just the sound of it, he knows immediately that what it means.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I don't even have to use it all the time.
[SPEAKER_02]: If I just hit the sound.
[SPEAKER_02]: OK. Well, I really appreciate it.
[SPEAKER_02]: You help me at least realize that I do just have to like we just have to live our life the way that he is and I'm not doing anything bad to him in terms of like not, you know, I don't know just letting him be who he is.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'll say this like, you know, the biggest, I think the biggest thing for you is the outside of the separation anxiety was the leash reactivity and I'll just say, you know, there's there's there's a couple things that I would think about when you're working on reactivity with your dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: The first thing I would work on is when you're out with your dog again, make sure that you have the exercise and the skill sets of what you want your dog to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: So for example, a lot of my clients, unfortunately, they want their dog to stop barking, but they don't, they haven't worked on a leave it.
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't, and then they can't enforce it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So make sure that you're using that e-color if your dog responds to it And it's in is doing well with it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Also, I have a lot of different ways to to to break down the build.
[SPEAKER_01]: So Doing an inside turn like, you know, turning inside to the dog and walking the other way just for 15 seconds and then coming back and Revisiting like we ultimately especially with the dog that doesn't have the innate
[SPEAKER_01]: Protectiveness or the innate aggression towards other dogs A lot of times it's just like bad experiences or insecurity or just being Kind of a brat then you can go in and say hey quit the crap.
[SPEAKER_01]: They go.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not that serious about it anyway So so I would I would try to find like I would use your friends
[SPEAKER_01]: that have dogs and say hey can you just meet me here at the park and I want you to walk by and then that way you can say get closer, get closer, get closer and you have a rare opportunity at that point to really work on leash reactivity in a way that many other people don't have the advantage of doing because a lot of people who work on reactivity,
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, the dog basically, you know, pops in and they'll run their neighborhood, they walk by, you panic, you black out, and it's over and you're like, what happened?
[SPEAKER_01]: What did I do, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So, again, it's like anything else, like you have an opportunity to actually practice and get better, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So, think about that too.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, instead of just, you know, going for walks, which is great, I would also be looking at going out for that walk and working on your reactivity stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: Making sure that you, you're like, all right, this time I'm going to use this leash and collar this time I'm going to do this this time I'm going to do this and really start to break down What is helping you with your reactivity and the leash instead of just you know you because you know if you can help if you can help your dog through it It'll be it'll be huge Yeah, for sure absolutely Okay, that sounds good all right