[SPEAKER_01]: So we have come to an interesting part in the dialogue.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a long dialogue between,
[SPEAKER_01]: Sri Ramakrishna and the Brahma devotees were visiting him and we come to a place where the question of God with form, God with out form, non-dueality, duality, all this comes up.
[SPEAKER_01]: So let's take a look.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am on page 148 and the date is 28 October 1882.
[SPEAKER_01]: 28 October 1882.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I'm sort of half way in the dialogue here.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is on page 148, a Brahmo devotee asks him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sir, has God forms or has He none?
[SPEAKER_01]: Master.
[SPEAKER_01]: No one can save it with finality that God is only this and nothing else.
[SPEAKER_01]: He is formless and again he has forms.
[SPEAKER_01]: For the Bhakta he assumes forms, but he is formless for the Gandhi that is for him who looks on the world as a mere dream.
[SPEAKER_01]: The Bhakta feels that he is one entity and the world another.
[SPEAKER_01]: Therefore God reveals himself to him as a person.
[SPEAKER_01]: But the Gany, the Vedantist for instance, always reasons applying the process of not this, not this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Through this discrimination, he realizes by his inner perception that the ego and the universe are both illusory like a dream.
[SPEAKER_01]: When the Gany realizes Brahman in his own consciousness, he cannot describe what Brahman is.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_01]: Think of Brahman existence knowledge, bliss, absolute, as a shortless ocean, through the cooling influence as it were, of the Bhaktar's love.
[SPEAKER_01]: The water has frozen at places into blocks of ice.
[SPEAKER_01]: In other words, God now and then assumes various forms for His lovers and reveals Himself to them as a person.
[SPEAKER_01]: But with the rising of the sun of knowledge, the blocks of ice melt, then one doesn't feel any more that God is a person, nor does one see God's forms.
[SPEAKER_01]: What He is cannot be described.
[SPEAKER_01]: Who will describe Him?
[SPEAKER_01]: He who would do so disappears.
[SPEAKER_01]: He cannot find His eye anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: If one analyzes oneself, one does not find anything, any such thing as eye,
[SPEAKER_01]: take an onion for instance.
[SPEAKER_01]: First of all, you peel off the red outer skin, then you find thick white skins.
[SPEAKER_01]: Peel these off one of another and you won't find anything inside.
[SPEAKER_01]: in that state, a man loan-onger finds the existence of his ego.
[SPEAKER_01]: And who is there to left to seek it?
[SPEAKER_01]: Who can describe how he feels in that state, in his own pure consciousness, about the real nature of Brahman, one's assault doll went to measure the depth of the ocean, no sooner was it in the water than it melted.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now who was to tell the depth?
[SPEAKER_01]: There is a sign of perfect knowledge.
[SPEAKER_01]: Man becomes silent when it is attained.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then the eye, which may be likened to the soul, tall, melts in the ocean of existence, knowledge, bliss, absolute, and becomes one with it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Not the slightest trace of distinction is left.
[SPEAKER_01]: As long as his self-analysis is not complete, man argues which much I do.
[SPEAKER_01]: but he becomes silent when he completes it.
[SPEAKER_01]: When the empty picture has been filled with water, when the water inside the picture becomes one with the water of the lake outside, no more sound is heard.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sound comes from the picture as long as the picture is not filled with water.
[SPEAKER_01]: People used to say in the olden days that no boat returns after having once entered the black waters of the ocean.
[SPEAKER_01]: or trouble and moderation come to an end when the eye dies.
[SPEAKER_01]: You may indulge in thousands of reasonings, but still the eye doesn't disappear.
[SPEAKER_01]: For people like you and me, it's good to have the feeling I am a lover of God.
[SPEAKER_01]: The Sarguna Brahman is meant for the bhaktas.
[SPEAKER_01]: In other words, bhakta believes that God has attributes and reveals himself to men as a person, as human forms.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is He who listens to our prayers.
[SPEAKER_01]: The prayers that you utter are directed to Him alone.
[SPEAKER_01]: You are Bhaktas, not Gyanis or Vedantists.
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't matter whether you accept God with form or not.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is enough to feel that a God is a person who listens to our prayers, who creates, preserves and destroys the universe, and who's endowed within infinite power.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is easier to attain God by following the path of devotion.
[SPEAKER_01]: The Brahmadevutis asks, sir, is it possible for one to see God?
[SPEAKER_01]: If so, why can't we see Him?
[SPEAKER_01]: Master, yes, He can surely be seen.
[SPEAKER_01]: One can see His forms and His formless aspect as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: How can I explain that to you?
[SPEAKER_01]: What are the means by which one can see God?
[SPEAKER_01]: Master, can you weep for Him?
[SPEAKER_01]: With the intense longing of heart?
[SPEAKER_01]: men shed a jug full of tears for the sake of the children for their wives for for money, but who weeps for God?
[SPEAKER_01]: So long as the child remains engrossed with its toys, the mother looks after her cooking and other household duties.
[SPEAKER_01]: But when the child no longer relishes the toys it throws them aside and yells for its mother.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then the mother takes the rice pot down from the earth, runs in haste and takes the child in her arms.
[SPEAKER_01]: This goes on, but this is enough to be going on with right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's see the beginning of this section.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a very interesting insight into duality and non-duality.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, the Brahmadevati asksar has got forms or has inun and Sri Ramakrishna gives a very important remark.
[SPEAKER_01]: He says, none can save its finality that God is only this and nothing else, it's foundless and with form.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then he talks about the bhakta and the ghani, the way of knowledge and the way of devotion.
[SPEAKER_01]: See, he says here.
[SPEAKER_01]: for the Bhakta he assumes forms, but he's formless for the Gany.
[SPEAKER_01]: That is for him who looks on the world as a mere dream.
[SPEAKER_01]: The Bhakta feels that he is one entity in the world is another.
[SPEAKER_01]: Therefore, God reveals himself to him as a person.
[SPEAKER_01]: But the Gany always reasons, the process of not this, not this.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he sees the world as a dream.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, so we'll see that later.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to present something unique that Sri Ramakrishna has done, which I noticed here.
[SPEAKER_01]: First of all, we'll look at what the Ghani says, but Advaita Vedanta says about this issue, about duality and non-duality.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the moment, Sri Ramakrishna, he boils it down to a key point.
[SPEAKER_01]: If he says, if you feel that you are one entity and the world is something separate from you, there is a separate real world, then it is duality.
[SPEAKER_01]: then God has to be worshipped as a person.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the person personal God can have forms.
[SPEAKER_01]: Later on he will say whether it has forms or no, no, forms doesn't matter.
[SPEAKER_01]: As long as your devotee you have to worship God as a person.
[SPEAKER_01]: So a formless personal God or a God personal God with form, but still dualistic.
[SPEAKER_01]: What is the problem here?
[SPEAKER_01]: And what is the solution that Sri Ramakrishna has given?
[SPEAKER_01]: what the adwait in the classical adwait of Elante approach to this is.
[SPEAKER_01]: Mr. Ramakrishna says, I mean, he takes the question pretty deep.
[SPEAKER_01]: The question is just wanted to know whether God is with form or without form, but Mr. Ramakrishna takes it deeper into the question of duality, non-duality, the way of knowledge, the way of devotion.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's interesting when he says, way of knowledge, he says Vedantist for example, by which he means Adwaita Vedant, the for example, which means they can be other ways of knowledge also.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what is the classical Vedant approach to this?
[SPEAKER_01]: I was reminded of this verse from Gaudapada, when he gives the classical Advaitiq view of religions, other religions.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is from the Advaita Prakarana.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me read out the verse and I'll explain.
[SPEAKER_01]: Taira, Yamna, Dhirud, Tati, Duelists who firmly believe in their own conclusions, their own religions.
[SPEAKER_01]: They are at loggerheads with each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: They are in constant conflict with each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: But this non-dual philosophy, this non-dual view has no conflict with any of them.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Swami Ranganathan ji was fond of coating this last line.
[SPEAKER_01]: Parasparamvirudhyandhitai Raya Mnavirudhyati.
[SPEAKER_01]: Dewalistic approaches, they are constantly in fiction, they fight with each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: But this non-dewal approach has no conflict with any of them.
[SPEAKER_01]: And in fact, at the beginning of the chapter, Godapatha is even more, he does not pull his punches.
[SPEAKER_01]: He says something quite sharp.
[SPEAKER_01]: The first verse of 3rd chapter of Pandu Kekarika, 3.1.
[SPEAKER_01]: These dualists who are who take refuge in worshiping God, as God who separate from them.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they believe before the creation of this universe, there was one undivided reality.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now duality has emerged.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there is a God to be worshipped.
[SPEAKER_01]: God is the cause of the creation of this universe.
[SPEAKER_01]: And your relation to that God is of worshipping God.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe God can be influenced by prayers, either for worldly purposes, let my part of this creation go well for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or even for spiritual purposes, by the grace of God, me, I be enlightened and things like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he says, Creeperah, Spetard, they are to be pitied.
[SPEAKER_01]: They are sunk in the darkness of ignorance and they are to be petite, all right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now what is this, what is the attitude?
[SPEAKER_01]: So,
[SPEAKER_01]: The dualists have a specific ideas of God.
[SPEAKER_01]: This world is real, and my religion teaches me, whether it's father in heaven or Vishnu or Shiva or the Divine Mother or Allah, atheistic God.
[SPEAKER_01]: And as revealed by my religion, by my lineage, and clearly, if this is the truth, and others who deviate from them, they must be wrong.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, if I'm worshipping Vishnu and you're worshipping Shiva, that Shiva worshipper must be wrong, and this is the truth.
[SPEAKER_01]: Clearly, my religion tells me the truth.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, if this is the truth, the other truth must be wrong.
[SPEAKER_01]: How can they be, both be true, when the two realities are different?
[SPEAKER_01]: You see, this external reality is one, and one type of ultimate reality God is revealed to be by my religion.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, that's true.
[SPEAKER_01]: And any deviation from that must be obviously false.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so you have contradictions.
[SPEAKER_01]: Parasparamviruk dihante, they contradict each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: Some believe in the existence of a God.
[SPEAKER_01]: Some like Buddhist, do not believe in the existence of a God.
[SPEAKER_01]: Those who believe in the existence of God, give it different names.
[SPEAKER_01]: Some say it is with form, some say it is without form.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so on.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if it is with form, then the forms are different.
[SPEAKER_01]: The names are different.
[SPEAKER_01]: The practices are different.
[SPEAKER_01]: the whole day for each religion is different, the rituals associated at different, the creation, stories of different religions are different.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, and these differences cannot be reconciled, must be either one or the other or both must be false, both cannot be true, and certainly we all cannot be true at the same time.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, Parasparamveru Dhyanthi, and this leads to not only contradiction, it leads to fanaticism and unfortunately violence.
[SPEAKER_01]: so this is the result of duality.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have sometimes I have mentioned to people that notice dualistic religions are religions of love because if God is separate from you clearly you are a small creature.
[SPEAKER_01]: We are small and helpless creatures.
[SPEAKER_01]: If there is an enormous benefician power like God immediately our relation to that God must be worship, adoration, devotion, love,
[SPEAKER_01]: and yet these religions, which are religions of love, are also religions of hatred, because it is these devotional religions, all of them, that they lead to fanatism, and in the case of some of them, actual acts of violence sometimes sanctioned by the religions or religious authorities, against people of no faith or people of other faiths.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, Parasparam, Viruddhanta, they are mutually in conflict with each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: Tair Iam Navirukh Dheeta.
[SPEAKER_01]: In contrast to this Shankaracharya points out, in his commentary on these verses, he says, notice, first of all, this point of view, non-dual point of view is the conclusion of the Vedas and is backed by logic.
[SPEAKER_01]: conclusion of the Vedas we made out it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean those who are dualistic, Dwaita, which is tucked away to they might say that the Vedas actually support Upanishads support our position, but let's not forget here we're talking about Gaudapada and Shankaracharya.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they're they're very clear about this that the Upanishads have come to a uniform conclusion.
[SPEAKER_01]: Even when they're talking about in the talking in dualistic language, the purpose, the point is to establish non-dwellity.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, at least Shankar and the followers of Shankar, they, we are all clear that the Upanishads support our non-dueristic position.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, first Shankar says first of all, notice that the non-duerism is ultimately supported or is the ultimate
[SPEAKER_01]: purpose, the what the Upanishads, the Vedas are pointing towards first scriptural support.
[SPEAKER_01]: Second logic and here is on pretty strong ground because if you sort of neutrally compare the dualistic religions also use logic.
[SPEAKER_01]: Lot of it, a lot of you know the neyah logic goes into whether it is Dwaita Vedanta or say Christian theology.
[SPEAKER_01]: Lot of argumentation is there.
[SPEAKER_01]: You see that the logic used in dualistic religions, in devotional religions, is theological.
[SPEAKER_01]: You already accept the truth of those religions and use all kinds of logic to try to support and argue for those positions.
[SPEAKER_01]: There is none like the adroitic position except perhaps some schools of Buddhism which can straight away argue just on experience and logic.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just turn experience and logic, based on experience and logic, and take you to the other Vedic conclusion.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can present these, for example, these conclusions in a scientific gathering or a gathering of philosophers who are not religious and still these arguments would be worth considering, whereas the arguments you see, what about the arguments in dualistic schools?
[SPEAKER_01]: Are they not worth considering?
[SPEAKER_01]: They are not.
[SPEAKER_01]: They might be of academic interest.
[SPEAKER_01]: But nobody would take them seriously without accepting the premise, without accepting that these religions are true and therefore these reasoning is this kind of reasoning is good But otherwise nobody would basically, when you would be laughed out in a scientific conference if you tried to prove that as somebody asked Prabhupada here, are we to believe that God is a little blue boy?
[SPEAKER_01]: He was straight forward, yes, why not?
[SPEAKER_01]: But you would be laughed out if you go to somebody who's not a Krishna Bhaktam, or who's an atheist.
[SPEAKER_01]: Whereas you can't laugh away, Advaita Vedanta.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've seen very skeptical people.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm talked with them, reasoned with them, and the conclusion was you have not convinced me, Swami, but I can't find a fault in your argument.
[SPEAKER_01]: So.
[SPEAKER_01]: Reason and scriptural authority, Shankaracharya claims in his commentary.
[SPEAKER_01]: Reason is on our side.
[SPEAKER_01]: What Adwaita Vedanta sees all these other religions as is like the snake and the rope.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is like a movie on a screen.
[SPEAKER_01]: The screen is real.
[SPEAKER_01]: The movie is fiction.
[SPEAKER_01]: And in the movie if you have a religion, that's also fiction, part of the fiction.
[SPEAKER_01]: And as far as if you accept the
[SPEAKER_01]: Adwaita Vedanta regards itself as giving paramarthika septium, the absolute truth.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it does not say the religions are false, they are as true as the world itself, will repeat that.
[SPEAKER_01]: They are as true as the world itself, does God exist, the answer would be, do you exist as an individual, yes, does this world around you exist, yes, in that case God exists, we have no objection to that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But Advaita would say, the individual being, the world around you and the God you think who is responsible for the world and it's all these beings are all equally appearances.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, as the two levels, relative truth, absolute truth, absolute truth is that there is only one existence consciousness place.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's all right, also.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it useless?
[SPEAKER_01]: Adwaita Vedanta would say, nothing is useless.
[SPEAKER_01]: Even the relative truth of this world is useful.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, after all Vedanta is a part of the relative truth.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have Vedanta classes in the relative truth.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the relative truth of God is also useful.
[SPEAKER_01]: It can be of secondary health.
[SPEAKER_01]: It will not give you ultimate liberation.
[SPEAKER_01]: Only you have to come to this non-dual realization.
[SPEAKER_01]: But to come to the non-dual realization, Adwaita Vedanta is very generous there.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is, it can certainly be a great help.
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, it would be highly recommended that you are religious and devotional.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, Advaitha talks about paramuthic to a reality that means absolute reality and the dualistic religions talk about at from a dualistic perspective.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're talking about the relative reality.
[SPEAKER_01]: And do that extent, you accept science at this relative level.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you are simply religion also at this dualistic level.
[SPEAKER_01]: The example used by Shankaracharya here is it shows what the non-dualists need, when they say, we are not in conflict with these dualistic religions.
[SPEAKER_01]: He says, I mentioned this earlier, that a man is writing on an elephant down a narrow village path and then a madman is standing on the way and he shouts, drive your elephant against mine, drive your against
[SPEAKER_01]: that you think in terms of Kerala where there are so many elephants and what will the man on the elephant say it's not possible because that madman doesn't have an elephant so weak we cannot have a fight with that madman similarly when he the dualist says my religion is right he also is wrong let's argue about it the non dualist says we have no conflict at all
[SPEAKER_01]: your delusional, my good man, so your religion and all such religions, I admit there in conflict with each other, but with the truth, appearance has no conflict, see, the appearance of the rope at this, all the snake has no conflict with the rope, it is the rope alone which can appear as the snake, it is the dry desert alone which can appear as mirage water.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is the colorless blue sky which can appear as a blue sky.
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't mean it's really blue.
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't mean that there's really water in that mirage.
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't mean that the rope has somehow become a snake.
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
[SPEAKER_01]: And exactly like that, the word Brahman can appear as this word, complete with its guard and your religion also fine at that level.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you go a little deeper, how does Advaita make this work?
[SPEAKER_01]: According to Advaita Vedanta,
[SPEAKER_01]: The world is not causally linked with Brahman.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is an important point.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not that the Brahman, the ultimate reality that Advaita Vedant is talking about has produced this world.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not that Brahman has been transformed into this world.
[SPEAKER_01]: Not that a part of Brahman has become this world.
[SPEAKER_01]: Not that somehow Brahman is the cause of this world.
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
[SPEAKER_01]: No more than a rope has produced a snake.
[SPEAKER_01]: No more than the sky has produced blue color.
[SPEAKER_01]: What advantage is there?
[SPEAKER_01]: If it looks like that without actually anything having happened, then non-duality is maintained.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not that a real Brahman has produced a real world.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then they would be too.
[SPEAKER_01]: But a real Brahman has not produced a real world.
[SPEAKER_01]: If it appears as the world, it's still one.
[SPEAKER_01]: They gave the example of Dwychandra, two moons.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you look at the cool moon in this guy and put pressure on your eyelids, it looks like two.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right now it looks like everyone of you has become two.
[SPEAKER_01]: If I put a pressure here.
[SPEAKER_01]: It does not mean that you have become two.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's an illusion, created by the pressure on the eyelid.
[SPEAKER_01]: And just like that, it does not that the non-dual brumman has become dualistic, multiple
[SPEAKER_01]: So non-dualism, not to, Breman is not to do it appears to be to.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that is Advaita Vedanta.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Advaita does not deny the appearance.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the beauty of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: If it denied the appearance, it would be crazy.
[SPEAKER_01]: We are seeing a world of duality, of plurality, of multiplicity.
[SPEAKER_01]: No philosophy can deny that you are seeing it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Advaita says, of course, you are seeing it.
[SPEAKER_01]: The non-dual Brahman is appearing as two, subject and object.
[SPEAKER_01]: You are Brahman appearing as a person who's experiencing a world, the wake-up experiencing the waking world, the dreamer experiencing the dream world, the deep sleeper experiencing the merge blankness of deep sleep.
[SPEAKER_01]: But all of these, the experience and the experience world are both appearances of one, two, or one Brahman.
[SPEAKER_01]: To explain this,
[SPEAKER_01]: If you want an explanation at all, why is it appearing like this?
[SPEAKER_01]: Suppose you say, why is it appearing?
[SPEAKER_01]: And I've discussed this earlier.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why does the one appear as the many adwaita uses?
[SPEAKER_01]: My are sometimes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes it uses a bit of ignorance.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, logically, I would just say, what else can poor Brahman do?
[SPEAKER_01]: either Brahman can appear as something or as nothing.
[SPEAKER_01]: If it did not appear as anything at all, you would come still complain.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why can't Brahman as appear as something?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's completely useless.
[SPEAKER_01]: It should appear as something.
[SPEAKER_01]: Appears as something, it becomes an experience to world.
[SPEAKER_01]: When it appears as nothing, it becomes the blankness of deep sleep.
[SPEAKER_01]: It becomes the cosmic resolution of at the end of the universe before the beginning of the next universe.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, something and nothing, both are appearances in the same Brahman and logically there is no other option.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, this is called Maya.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, simple logic, if Turiya or Brahman is changeless and everybody admits, ultimately it's changeless.
[SPEAKER_01]: If it's changeless, it cannot really
[SPEAKER_01]: Imagine, if it did undergo modification, then it would be in time, because modification takes time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anything that changes over time is subject to death.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's subject to destruction, then that so-called absolute reality would disappear after a certain period of time.
[SPEAKER_01]: It would become this changing world then.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it only appears as the changing world.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so the very changelessness of Brahman is implies that the changing world must be an appearance.
[SPEAKER_01]: Some people say they have a merger theory that it yes yes I understand all that but before the creation of this universe Brahman was one undivided reality now this world or we have become separated from Brahman and with lots of spiritual practices we will merge black slowly little by little and until we have finally merged in Brahman and like you know being submerged in the ocean.
[SPEAKER_01]: little by little and we are completely dunked in the ocean finally, but this first of all Brahman doesn't have parts that the part of it can become separate from Brahman and then again merge back into Brahman.
[SPEAKER_01]: That is, Brahman is undivided in a Gwaita Pilanta and again this appearance out of Brahman and merge it back into Brahman implies actual change.
[SPEAKER_01]: Not only
[SPEAKER_01]: even if you push it further, even what are the way the Vedanta says, the so-called bondage we are in and the spiritual practice that we do and the liberation which we get enlightenment and liberation, Moqshah which we get.
[SPEAKER_01]: Those are also appearances.
[SPEAKER_01]: Those are also within the realm of my.
[SPEAKER_01]: We will realize upon enlightenment, we always wear Pramman, our Brahman and we'll always changelessly be that, and perfectly all right, even in the midst of all this manifestation.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not that this manifested world and this individuality has to disappear.
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't have to disappear.
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't have to switch up the movie.
[SPEAKER_01]: When you realize it's a movie, that's it.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's enough to enjoy the movie.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let the movie play on.
[SPEAKER_01]: For the movie to play on, there must be a world and there must be an experience of the world.
[SPEAKER_01]: You must be there as an individual.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you, Brahman, must appear to yourself as your world.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the movie.
[SPEAKER_01]: So let it go on.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no problem at all.
[SPEAKER_01]: Even this so-called liberation will be realized that it's also part of the appearance.
[SPEAKER_01]: World apart, in fact, says this, there is no beginning of this universe, there is no cessation of this universe.
[SPEAKER_01]: There is nobody who is in bondage, nobody who is doing spiritual practices, nobody who is seeking freedom and nobody who is freed also.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is the final truth.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is in Mandukya Karika.
[SPEAKER_01]: We might say that, well, at least let the world be false, I understand, but let liberation itself be an even.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then it would be time-bound.
[SPEAKER_01]: There was bondage earlier, now I am liberated.
[SPEAKER_01]: But if it happened in time, it can also again disappear in time.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am liberated.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then I may lose my freedom at one point, and go back into the state of bondage and nobody.
[SPEAKER_01]: in no dualistic religion.
[SPEAKER_01]: Notice the contradiction here.
[SPEAKER_01]: No dualistic religion ever admits salvation, liberation, Nirvana, boxer to be temporary.
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, even the Buddhists, they are caught in a little bind here.
[SPEAKER_01]: When you say everything is momentary, well, is Nirvana momentary.
[SPEAKER_01]: they will they will squirm a little this way and that way a little bit here.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can't see Nirvana is momentary.
[SPEAKER_01]: They will say it is momentary, but it is eternally momentary.
[SPEAKER_01]: Every moment is a new Nirvana or something like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it will always be Nirvana.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well then why don't you be straight forward that bit?
[SPEAKER_01]: Nirvana is the one thing that is eternal.
[SPEAKER_01]: But if it is eternal, then it cannot start at one point.
[SPEAKER_01]: It cannot be an event in time.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there itself dualistic approach to religion falls apart.
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is the Advaitic approach to dualistic religions and the religions of the world.
[SPEAKER_01]: What is the problem?
[SPEAKER_01]: The problem is there are multiple problems with this.
[SPEAKER_01]: One problem is it's sort of elitistic, not everybody can understand and appreciate this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let alone realize it.
[SPEAKER_01]: You will find it's only a particular kind of mind.
[SPEAKER_01]: I always say, Vedanta is kind of a finishing school for spirituality.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not in a hurry to push Vedanta to avoid the Vedanta to anybody.
[SPEAKER_01]: Take a look around, go and take a look at the dualistic religions of the world a little bit of mindfulness, little bit of Bhajan and Kitan, little bit of Kundalini, little bit of atheism.
[SPEAKER_01]: all of that, finally you will come around and if you say if you don't, doesn't matter we'll be there next life, we'll be waiting, life or lifetime after lifetime, you will come to some form of non-duality.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I mean some tradition of non-duality, whether it's Advaita, Tibetan Buddhism or whatever Kashmiri shybism or something, that alone will be satisfying but it's not easy to appreciate at all.
[SPEAKER_01]: That means,
[SPEAKER_01]: You are a whole lot of people who may be genuinely spiritually hungry.
[SPEAKER_01]: You are pushing them to a lower level in the hierarchy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Notice the problem with the dualist is, they consider everybody else to be false, except their own dualistic religion, and certainly they consider non-duality to be false.
[SPEAKER_01]: The problem with the classical non-dualist is, you will demote all dualistic religions to the transactional or relative level.
[SPEAKER_01]: That may not be very satisfying, after all, which dualistic religion will say will agree.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, you don't have any conflict with us.
[SPEAKER_01]: After all, we are crazy people with no elephants.
[SPEAKER_01]: You are the only one with an elephant.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you don't have any conflict with us.
[SPEAKER_01]: Who will be happy with that kind of a position?
[SPEAKER_01]: Or sometimes it's given this kind of example, climbing the Everest peak, mountain peak.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the dualistic religions are like the base camp.
[SPEAKER_01]: and then you make your way up to the peak.
[SPEAKER_01]: But who wants to be stuck in base camp?
[SPEAKER_01]: Who would like once religious to deliver religious tradition to be called a base camp?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, you are not dismissing me as completely false, but you are dismissing me as a level of appearance.
[SPEAKER_01]: At best helpful, but not the truth.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not the truth.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not real, but you are thinking of separate guard and all that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, this is a big problem, you know, this dismissal and demoting of all other religions to a lower level, all other points of view.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, what 3 Ramakrishna does, let us see in this background, 3 Ramakrishna is saying,
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_01]: Think of Brahman existence knowledge, bliss, absolute as a shoreless ocean through the cooling influence of bhakti.
[SPEAKER_01]: As a bhaktas love, the water has frozen at places into blocks of ice.
[SPEAKER_01]: In other words, God now and then assumes various forms for His lovers and reveals himself to them as a person.
[SPEAKER_01]: But with the rising of the sun of knowledge, the blocks of ice melt.
[SPEAKER_01]: then one doesn't feel any more that God is a person, nor does one see God's forms.
[SPEAKER_01]: What he is cannot be described.
[SPEAKER_01]: Who will describe him?
[SPEAKER_01]: He who do so disappears.
[SPEAKER_01]: He cannot find his eye anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: He makes a very interesting move here, Sri Ramakrishna.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, philosophically speaking, the example which he uses is not the illusory elephant, magically the crazy man with no elephant.
[SPEAKER_01]: He says, think of, he's talking to the non-dualist.
[SPEAKER_01]: So think of your Brahman as an endless ocean of,
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, existence consciousness, and it is a favorite example for non-doerists.
[SPEAKER_01]: Ashdavakra is full of this ocean example.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am an infinite ocean of consciousness.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you must admit, in the ocean, to stretch the example further, there are blocks of ice, you know, ice birds, and when it becomes very cold, the same water phases into ice, and the ice birds no longer look the same.
[SPEAKER_01]: the icebergs look different, they are different from each other and they have their own peculiarities and individualities and that comes out of the intense devotion, the devotees mind is yes, he is quite clear, it is conditioned by a religion, it is conditioned by a culture, it is conditioned by Sadhana, particular Sadhana to now.
[SPEAKER_01]: But the beauty is for the
[SPEAKER_01]: Why would you have any hesitation in accepting it as the absolute reality just because it has a particular form or many types of forms?
[SPEAKER_01]: would you, would you want to say that you have to melt the iceberg back into the water?
[SPEAKER_01]: Then only I will accept it as water.
[SPEAKER_01]: Otherwise it's, I'm going to, you know, rant against it.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, it's exactly, you should not be worried.
[SPEAKER_01]: As the non-duelist, yes, you have a grasp on the reality.
[SPEAKER_01]: And these poor dualists do not have a grasp on the reality.
[SPEAKER_01]: But what the dualists worship as God is exactly what you see as the reality.
[SPEAKER_01]: And to put it even more simply, in the non-dualist case, non-dualist has no way of escaping.
[SPEAKER_01]: For according to non-dualist, there's only one non-dual reality.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anything that appears in this non-dual reality also must be this non-dual reality.
[SPEAKER_01]: What else is there?
[SPEAKER_01]: There isn't a real brumman and a false word.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is the real Brahman, which appears as this so-called false word.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when do you call it a false word?
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, non-dwellist, he's asking it, asking the non-dwellist.
[SPEAKER_01]: When do you call it the false word?
[SPEAKER_01]: A person who has no appreciation of the real Brahman.
[SPEAKER_01]: and takes only the names and forms, the products of delusion as the reality and says that's real, but the dualist is not doing that.
[SPEAKER_01]: The dualist is worshipping the same water with the Brahman in a particular form.
[SPEAKER_01]: You as a non-dualist need not be upset that the water has taken a particular form and he maintains the truth claim of the non-dualist.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he says, yes, it is because of the love, the devotion, the mental conditioning of the devotee, that the devotee experiences reality in this way, but the devotee experiences reality nonetheless, not falsity.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he goes further, agreeing with the non-dualist.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, when the son of knowledge rises, the form of these forms will all melt back into water.
[SPEAKER_01]: You will see it is only Bramman to entirely form less beyond subject and object, which the devotee, appearing as a subject, worshiped as an object, as a divine object.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it is the reality alone, all through.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is quite different from saying,
[SPEAKER_01]: There is no elephant at all.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have the elephant.
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't have an elephant.
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is, you have the formless water.
[SPEAKER_01]: This devotee has water with a particular form and the other devotee has water with that other form.
[SPEAKER_01]: They are all real.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a beautiful move.
[SPEAKER_01]: This
[SPEAKER_01]: gives pause.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is not something that you see in classical Adwaita Vedanta.
[SPEAKER_01]: Classical Adwaita Vedanta would still claim, a non-duelist traditional monks would still claim.
[SPEAKER_01]: We are not against religions of the world.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, yeah, it's kindergarten stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can play with these toys as long as your children.
[SPEAKER_01]: When your series come to us, we'll show you what is the truth behind all these so-called religions.
[SPEAKER_01]: The truth is non-duel Brahman.
[SPEAKER_01]: But Sri Ram Krishna says that holds true for these dualistic religions also.
[SPEAKER_01]: What they are worshipping is true from your perspective, from you the non-dualist, you should have no objection there and there it's not second grade reality.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not that the iceberg is any less water than the formless water.
[SPEAKER_01]: After all, it's the iceberg which sank the Titanic, not your formless water.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the iceberg is no less real than that.
[SPEAKER_01]: The Advaitin would argue, no, those forms have dependant reality.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sri Ram Krishna agrees, yes, and the son of knowledge rises, you will say the forms have dependant reality.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is the formless non-dvalinity, which is ultimately real, which is your own inner self, fine, every bit of non-dvalinity is accepted.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he is accepting these dualistic religions, post-non-dvalinity.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: See, when he is talking about this dualistic religions and approving of it, Sudama Krishna, it is not that he is taking the side of the dualistic religions against non-realism.
[SPEAKER_01]: He is in fact giving approval to dualism on the basis of non-realism.
[SPEAKER_01]: What's the difference between the two?
[SPEAKER_01]: The traditional dualistic religions.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the dualistic schools of Vedanta, for example, Bishish Taktwaita, Dwaita, Shoddha, Dwaita, Dwaita, many of the many schools.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're all devotional dualistic schools.
[SPEAKER_01]: They say that there is no such reality.
[SPEAKER_01]: There is no non-dwell reality at all.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am real.
[SPEAKER_01]: The world is real, and there is a separate real God.
[SPEAKER_01]: and they stop there.
[SPEAKER_01]: There is no oneness in this universe.
[SPEAKER_01]: God above the points it out at one place.
[SPEAKER_01]: For the dualist, it's dualism before and after.
[SPEAKER_01]: Before and after means, as long as they're experiencing the world, it's dualism.
[SPEAKER_01]: When they become, you know, when they realize they're God, they're still dualism.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're because they think God and they are different.
[SPEAKER_01]: where the non-dualist says that underlying all these dualisms is the reality which is non-dualism.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, problems with the non-dualist is he classifies the dualist as preliminary at best helpful and clearly not in direct contact with reality.
[SPEAKER_01]: They are still dwelling in a fictional land, whereas Sri Ramakrishna, he affirms the truth of both on the basis of non-dualist, he says, yes non-dual reality is the truth, it is an endless
[SPEAKER_01]: and subject an object or appearance is in that.
[SPEAKER_01]: The world is an appearance and you are that absolute reality which experiences this world as a subject.
[SPEAKER_01]: After that, he says, now from your new perspective, please look back upon what these dualistic religions are worshipping and notice, they are not worshipping a fictional world, the fictional snake in the real rogue.
[SPEAKER_01]: They are actually in contact with the real rogue.
[SPEAKER_01]: They are in contact with the real water of the ocean through their particular forms.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, one more point, before we go ahead.
[SPEAKER_01]: Somebody can point out that the moment you introduce difference.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the different icebergs are different.
[SPEAKER_01]: They have different forms.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure so all these religions will have different names, forms, and the histories, the practices, commandments.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they'll fight again if you at any point admit the difference and they'll fight.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that is where Sri Ramakrishna.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now you see the beautiful logic how the piece is fitting.
[SPEAKER_01]: Adwaita Vedanta has a kind of harmony of religions, is a harmony of stories, they are ultimately all stories, pick any one, develop your spiritual life through that, then quickly come to non-dwellism.
[SPEAKER_01]: from that dualism come to non-dwellism.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what traditional non-dwellism says.
[SPEAKER_01]: But Sri Ramakrishna says that, no, no, no.
[SPEAKER_01]: Even after accepting the truth of non-dwellism, you can still have a dualistic relationship with God.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can still be the subject and worship God as this divine, which appears as an object to you.
[SPEAKER_01]: But you know, underneath it, God is not an object.
[SPEAKER_01]: That beautiful saying is there, bodha, prah, duaitam, moha, apra, tae, manishaya, bhaktiya, tamkal, pitham, duaitam, and duaita, the pism, the rum.
[SPEAKER_01]: Before enlightenment, duality puts you in delusion.
[SPEAKER_01]: which is what Advaita is saying.
[SPEAKER_01]: Separation puts you in delusion in Maya.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're trapped in some sorrow.
[SPEAKER_01]: But after enlightenment, Praptay Manishaya, after enlightenment, the appearance of duality, that means I am different and my beloved God is different from me.
[SPEAKER_01]: This appearance of duality.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why would you do that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Bhakti Yattham for the sake of love.
[SPEAKER_01]: is he says, Adwaita Adapisun Dharam, it's more beautiful than non-development.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is what Sri Ram Krishna says at the end, you know, he says, finally my view would be after realising non-development.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then live in this world as this person full of love and devotion to the Lord.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is a very, he says, in Bengali, at a parkam or this is a mature view.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, in from his perspective, dualism, non-dualism, those are not mature views.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a mature view.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think this is what our Myanmar is also pointing towards.
[SPEAKER_01]: This can be explained only as, you know, the Vigyana Vedanta, the Thesis, that you have to push a little further.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this can be done only on the basis of a Dwight, a non-dualism.
[SPEAKER_01]: It can't be done on the basis of any dualistic philosophy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's say, do we have to?
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't have to.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're not dualist, it's fine, I mean, from my perspective, but it might be just a little elitist compared to, you know, every other religion, then you don't have any answer.
[SPEAKER_01]: Your answer to all the dualistic religions would be, get a move on, don't get stuck in childishness, which is not going to impress anybody.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's, they might see it as another kind of an artistism.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the harmony of religions, Ram Krishna's stress and so very important stress.
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, just last week I was in Fargo, not Dakota.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was invited to a church, a unitary and universalist church.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're extremely liberal, very open and inviting, accommodating congregation.
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, that's where Swami Vivekananda gave his first talk in the West, even before Chicago, in Anisquam, in New England, on the East Coast.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that was a unitary and universalist congregation.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was reading in a,
[SPEAKER_01]: article, so I'm in Vivekananda spoke 27 times in different Unitarian Universalist congregations across the United States, including one in Oakland, where this in the church they still have a church chair they have preserved it separately, on which Vivekananda would sit and talk.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they were very open at a time when then we came here, most congregations would reject him as well as this strange hidden, with this strange ideas and dark skin.
[SPEAKER_01]: Their universe lists were always open, always friendly, and always welcome him.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I spoke to one of these churches in Fargo, not Dakota, all the way there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And as quite exotic, I was invited to give a radio talk.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the radio host, it's called Y,
[SPEAKER_01]: And the radio host said, in the radio station, they were saying, I'm the first specimen of my type, they were ever seen by Hindu monk from India.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, there I talked about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: This point of the harmony of religions.
[SPEAKER_01]: How can you have harmony between so multiple points of view, which are in many points contradictory?
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly as God or Father pointed out, they contradict each other and they fight.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sri Ramakrishna does not say those are empty contradictions.
[SPEAKER_01]: They are delivering some of a madman and they are no elephants there.
[SPEAKER_01]: We say, no, no, no.
[SPEAKER_01]: The reality which they are pointing towards is infinite.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sri Ramakrishna, he makes this five, I made five points there.
[SPEAKER_01]: First of all, the reality which all these religions point towards is infinite and has infinite aspects and beyond language and beyond start.
[SPEAKER_01]: and he gives the example of the ant which went to mountain of sugar.
[SPEAKER_01]: and we dragged a grain of that to its little hole and looked back and said, I'm coming back for the rest of course, he can't.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's beyond its capacity and it doesn't need to.
[SPEAKER_01]: The little grain is enough to fill it's little tummy.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, the little bit of whatever we realize of God is enough for our liberation, enough for our salvation.
[SPEAKER_01]: The infinite reality is far beyond any human comprehension.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, that's one point.
[SPEAKER_01]: Second point is, not only is it's infinite beyond language and beyond start,
[SPEAKER_01]: But it can be expressed in language and thought.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what the religions of the world do.
[SPEAKER_01]: And therefore, they express it differently.
[SPEAKER_01]: The old Vedic idea of truth is one, but the wise speak of it differently.
[SPEAKER_01]: It comes up with Prabhavadavadanti.
[SPEAKER_01]: If we come to the Vedanta society here downstairs, let's written in big letters.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Sri Ramakrishna put it this way that the story of the parable of the lake,
[SPEAKER_01]: Pukur, lake, where different communities go and the Bengal is called it Jal and the Muslims go and call it Pani and the Englishmen go and call it water and they are all talking about same reality.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, the same reality can be expressed in different languages, language them, different theology, different philosophy, different symbols, at different conceptions of the
[SPEAKER_01]: infinite reality beyond language, beyond conception, which is now expressed in many many different ways, this is the goal of human life.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the point of human life, the why we are here, ultimately is to realize that and it is the point of all these religions.
[SPEAKER_01]: So all the different religions are now seen as paths to realize this infinite reality.
[SPEAKER_01]: The very crucial move, religions are paths,
[SPEAKER_01]: What they are speaking towards the goal they are leading you to, that's true.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you can have multiple paths and Sri Ramakrishna, he's, he's, he's, he just said to the Brahma devotees that look some of you have come by carriage, horse carriage, some of you cross the river Ganga on the boat, some of you walked here across the bridge.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, but you have all arrived here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Similarly, he says, the Brahma will realize God and the Christian will realize God, the Hindu, the Vedant, this will realize God and the Vaishnava will realize God, all will realize God.
[SPEAKER_01]: because these are different paths are different, and the paths are different from them.
[SPEAKER_01]: They are unique, they have their unique characteristics.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then the fourth one, fourth point, which I made was that Sri Ramakrishna says, in this multiplicity of paths and practices there must be dedication, you have to sincerely follow something.
[SPEAKER_01]: He says this, the path is not important, but you have to sincerely follow one.
[SPEAKER_01]: You have to hold on to something.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he calls in Hinduism, this is called Istha Nistha.
[SPEAKER_01]: Istha Nistha means a dedication to a particular ideal.
[SPEAKER_01]: whatever your particular path, your worship or a Krishna, or your non-dualist, or your worship or a Christ, or whatever you are, you must hold on to that with this background of, you know, very liberal, very inclusive, this very, this idea of the infinite reality beyond everything else.
[SPEAKER_01]: You follow that.
[SPEAKER_01]: He gives the example of the man who was digging for water in a place.
[SPEAKER_01]: He didn't find any water and then he started digging elsewhere and then he kept on digging different places and at the end of the day he didn't find any water at home.
[SPEAKER_01]: But if we had dug in one place for a sufficient amount of time, he would have found water.
[SPEAKER_01]: And finally, what is today called cosmopolitanism?
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a five-fifth point.
[SPEAKER_01]: not only must you follow your own path, but you must be open to other paths.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not exclusively.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what's the point of learning about different religions and all this?
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll just follow my own little path then.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, you must be open to all other paths.
[SPEAKER_01]: You must be open to learning from others and enriching your spiritual life.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can find a lot of light in other roads, in other
[SPEAKER_01]: I was I read a great Christian Syllogen.
[SPEAKER_01]: He said he calls it holy envy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Holy envy means when you look at a scripture or the teachings in different other religions, there's sometimes seen much better than yours.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's holy envy, but I wish I could get that and your wish is fulfilled.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can of course a veil of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is a new term for it nowadays.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's called cosmopolitanism.
[SPEAKER_01]: When you live in a very big city, people with many different languages, this in New York you have 80 different nationalities.
[SPEAKER_01]: The different languages, different cuisine, different food, different music and quite a bit of it, you can apply to yourself also.
[SPEAKER_01]: So these are the five points.
[SPEAKER_01]: Where does Ram Krishna say this?
[SPEAKER_01]: He says it to the Brahmas.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you would never have reformed sect of Hinduism.
[SPEAKER_01]: They did not believe in image worship.
[SPEAKER_01]: He says to them, look at the Vaishnavas.
[SPEAKER_01]: Those who worship Krishna.
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't have to worship Krishna like them or do image worship.
[SPEAKER_01]: But he says in Bengal, he thought they turned to Kula.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now look at how much attached they are to Krishna.
[SPEAKER_01]: Look at their tremendous love for Krishna, the intensity.
[SPEAKER_01]: He knows that his bramos are educated, sophisticated, philosophical, but they lack intensity.
[SPEAKER_01]: They are shallow.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm going to make it on the points out.
[SPEAKER_01]: The fanatic has this advantage that the fanatic can be quite deep, but narrow.
[SPEAKER_01]: The liberal person often runs the risk of becoming shallow.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then they become the says, that what we want is to be as deep as the ocean and as broad as the sky.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he says, I know it is possible because I lived with one such, that means he lived with Sri Ramakrishna, who can be as deep as the ocean and as broad as the sky.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me quickly look at the reactions.
[SPEAKER_01]: If there is no world and there is nothing, I don't understand the world is not but Brahman is.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, one must be careful here.
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, a traditional non-dualist monk from Banaras, caution me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Swami, when there's be careful when speaking to people about the non-existence of the world, the example given in the Upanishads is the clay is real, but that the pot is false.
[SPEAKER_01]: Bittikaiti was a septem.
[SPEAKER_01]: The clay alone is real.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then he said, when you say this to a gathering in an audience, the impression they get in is that this pot in front of them is nothing, it's just there's nothing there.
[SPEAKER_01]: But how can there be nothing?
[SPEAKER_01]: Whereas what the example of the Upanishad was trying to say was, the clay is definitely there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the pot is a superimposed form, a name pot and a kind of function.
[SPEAKER_01]: You put water in it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But that form and name and function doesn't exist without the clay.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's making a philosophical point.
[SPEAKER_01]: The actual part which you hold is clay.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a clay is already there.
[SPEAKER_01]: When you say part doesn't exist, people get the kind of weird idea.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's a natural reaction.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're trying to say that this thing which I'm holding in my hand doesn't exist.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not true.
[SPEAKER_01]: It does exist.
[SPEAKER_01]: The clay does exist.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when you say, if there is no world, then there is nothing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't understand why the world is not a drumman is.
[SPEAKER_01]: That would be the normal reaction.
[SPEAKER_01]: For me, the world is everything that is his drumman.
[SPEAKER_01]: You talk about this blessed Brahman.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't see it anywhere.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I see the world everywhere.
[SPEAKER_01]: I see the world existing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't see the, this Brahman of yours existing.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then you have to see what is meant by the world.
[SPEAKER_01]: And what is meant by Brahman?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like the clay and the pot.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like the dreamer and the dream.
[SPEAKER_01]: your dream doesn't exist without you, the dreamer.
[SPEAKER_01]: Similarly, you are Brahman, and without you, the your world doesn't exist.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why we think the world exists is exactly what Sri Ram Krishna point.
[SPEAKER_01]: And look at the astute pointing out, as long as you think I am one entity, and the world is another entity, then God becomes a personal God for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: worship Krsna or Christ on whichever way.
[SPEAKER_01]: And all of those become valid because under the gain he goes back to Advaita.
[SPEAKER_01]: Behind them is one showedless ocean of existence consciousness place.
[SPEAKER_01]: These are like icebergs.
[SPEAKER_01]: just follow this example, talking to Priya and everybody else, dream and dream world example, you the dreamer and the world you dream of in the dream in the dream state.
[SPEAKER_01]: The dream world does not exist without you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Would you not admit that it doesn't, so we stop dreaming.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then the place you are dreaming about the people you are dreaming about in the dream, not in the baking world, that
[SPEAKER_01]: Because they had no existence, because it's not that they were there and they magically appeared in the magically disappeared, no, no, no, no, they were you.
[SPEAKER_01]: You yourself appeared as your dream world and as you the person in the dream world.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when you stop dreaming, you still remain you just that your appearance disappears.
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: If that is clear, then exactly like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: There is one existence consciousness, which is appearing as Priya and Priya's world.
[SPEAKER_01]: Without that existence consciousness, Priya's world is also not there and Priya, as a person is not there, Priya is just that existence consciousness.
[SPEAKER_01]: Think about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: The translate to he is given a Hindi code.
[SPEAKER_01]: Consciousness does not arise.
[SPEAKER_01]: Consciousness does not perish.
[SPEAKER_01]: The world appears.
[SPEAKER_01]: Two consciousness appears in consciousness.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is nothing other than none other than consciousness.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me see the Hindi.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the extraordinary conclusion, but it has to be understood.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the state and which the icebergs melt back into the ocean.
[SPEAKER_01]: Son of knowledge rises and icebergs melt back into the ocean.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's only boundless water.
[SPEAKER_01]: So greed says, the fact that I exist, it is dualistic.
[SPEAKER_01]: So how do I see my own existence after liberation?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I exist, you have to investigate that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I exist, there's no doubt about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But what is that I which exists?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it the body?
[SPEAKER_01]: Notice, you say, yeah, it's me, the body.
[SPEAKER_01]: The body is continuously changing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there was a time when this body did not exist.
[SPEAKER_01]: So did you not exist before that?
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's a time when the body will not exist.
[SPEAKER_01]: Will you not exist after that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Notice, even when now the body is existing, it is existing in your awareness.
[SPEAKER_01]: You are aware of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just as you are aware of, you know, I'm aware of this glasses.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm aware of this piece of plug.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm aware of the body.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no difference.
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly the same thing is true of the mind also.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am aware of every thought, every feeling, every memory, even this person's sorbar Priyanda.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am aware of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then what is that one which exists in whose awareness the world appears?
[SPEAKER_01]: That awareness is growing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Pricarchus is the intellect, quote Shankara, intellect, imagines, duality for the sake of devotion.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is beautiful, but do you have a source for this to be very nice?
[SPEAKER_01]: The moral is what I mentioned earlier before enlightenment, duality creates delusion, traps you and some sorrow.
[SPEAKER_01]: And after enlightenment, duality is imagined for the sake of love, is more beautiful than non-duality.
[SPEAKER_01]: that non-dulity, however, careful, that non-dulity continues to be true, and the duality is imagined, calpitum-dwitum, is an imagined duality.
[SPEAKER_01]: Non-dulity is the truth in which duality is imagined for the sake of love or for enjoyment.
[SPEAKER_01]: Patrick, do you think the idea of ice water as Ram Krishna explained is what God of all the rest of the event, the reality is beyond dual and non-dwell,
[SPEAKER_01]: No, Gordapada Nastavakra would see the ocean example as, you know, a vindication of their classical non-dolyce position.
[SPEAKER_01]: Pravid Babu, this is Shuddha Bhakti.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, this is Bhakti after non-dwellity, and this also explains by the way, you know, the question is often raised, how is it Shankara, and actually
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, from a classical perspective, they would have to say, well, they are devotional, I mean, ordinary people non-practicing non-duillists who are progressing on the path of path of non-duality, they practice dualistic devotion in order to develop themselves so that they can practice non-duality later, but obviously Shankar and these other adwaita masters were not
[SPEAKER_01]: trying to achieve enlightenment they are already enlightened.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, in their case their practice of devotion or dualistic devotion would be as a teaching to a lesser mortals who have not yet attained non dual realization.
[SPEAKER_01]: For after all if you do attain non dual realization there is no need for dualistic devotion anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: Whereas upon Sri Ramakrishna's perspective
[SPEAKER_01]: our non-dolist can happily connect your actually enjoyed devotion even more than a dualist can have a full knowledge of the non-dual reality.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is the same water as the ocean.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, it is appearing as this wonderful iceberg.
[SPEAKER_01]: Good.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then it would explain devotion of Shankaracharya and other non-dolist masters as genuine devotion, not as something
[SPEAKER_01]: It's genuine devotion, real love of God, expressed as Shankara to his Lord Shiva or Vishnu.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like always, Hanuman's thing, you know, when Hanuman was asked by Ram Chandra, he says, as this body, I am as Hanuman, I am your servant, you are my master, dualistic.
[SPEAKER_01]: But as this Jiva, I am a sentient being and I am part of you.
[SPEAKER_01]: And as Atman as Consciousness, you are, you and I are one reality, and this is my firm conviction.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a dualistic Vishestad Vaita, an Advaita.
[SPEAKER_01]: And also, I am Hanuman, you are the Avatar Ram Chandra, you are my master in this Lila of God.
[SPEAKER_01]: You are my master, I am your servant.
[SPEAKER_01]: But you are even more.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you go further back, the iceberg melts back into the ocean.
[SPEAKER_01]: You and I are one reality.
[SPEAKER_01]: They are water.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is pure consciousness.
[SPEAKER_01]: Which is beautiful.
[SPEAKER_01]: one might at this point say, so the dualistic religions are right, but it's the need of non-duillism.
[SPEAKER_01]: You see, this is right only after this non-duillistic idea of one ocean appearing as iceberg.
[SPEAKER_01]: Dualistic religions don't agree with that.
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't say that there is an underlying one ocean of such a dawn and they would say, no, no, we are all separate.
[SPEAKER_01]: There is one guard who is separate from us.
[SPEAKER_01]: Here is a real universe.
[SPEAKER_01]: Here is a tiny little me and that's the final truth.
[SPEAKER_01]: This problem, when you say, that's the final truth.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's where the problem arises.
[SPEAKER_01]: Notice how Sri Ram Krishna starts his explanation by first sentence.
[SPEAKER_01]: And don't put a limit to God.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's saying, this is as much of God as I can take.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no more God than this.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, don't do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sri Nivas Raju says in Advaita Vedanta, initially as a secret Sada, one negates the world duality after realization is Brahman only.
[SPEAKER_01]: The world is not separate from Brahman.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sri Ram Krishna said the world is unreal in his appearance, but real in his essence, Brahman.
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: Josh, we say it's text, thank Narayanyam.
[SPEAKER_01]: So on the real Iheri too, though heavily focused on Bhakti and devotion also say that intense love and devotion will help one realized Prammer.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a classical Advaiti Kaproj to it.
[SPEAKER_01]: That yes, your dualistic approach will help you to realize Prammer.
[SPEAKER_01]: But please come if you want to straightforward direct approach, please come to Bandukya, Asthavakva and we will show you the direct approach.
[SPEAKER_01]: Pranam Maharaj, your lecture today was a condensed version of
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess so.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do end up repeating myself.
[SPEAKER_01]: I remember I was giving a talk in a college once in Calcutta many years ago.
[SPEAKER_01]: I used to teach there as a monk.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a teacher training education.
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the professors one day said before, another of my talks he said, so are we going to get to hear something new this day?
[SPEAKER_01]: pointing out that accusing me of repeating myself endlessly.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I said, look, I don't have anything new to say what I have, which is says 5,000 years old.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there isn't much new to say.
[SPEAKER_01]: Bill says, like a Sri Ramakrishna coach, is easier to attain God by following the path of devotion.
[SPEAKER_01]: Please come in, yes, we're coming to that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Shiva Priya, who said as deep as the ocean broad as the sky, Vivekananda, and he said it about Sri Ramakrishna.
[SPEAKER_01]: Rick, would you like to ask a question?
[SPEAKER_00]: In the very beginning of tonight's class, you were reading a passage in which you referred to the state in which one had lost all semblance of a personal self.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I've been pondering this for years because I know people who say that that's the way they function, but I just don't understand how it seems to me there has to be some
[SPEAKER_00]: flavor at least of a sense of personal self.
[SPEAKER_00]: Otherwise, you know, I stub my toe.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's felt here.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not felt by some guy in China.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's, you know, as long as we're living in a body seems to me, there has to be some sense of personal self.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I don't know, it's not my experience.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I understand what you're saying.
[SPEAKER_01]: What's Sri Ramakrishna's pointing towards is that intuitive realization of the non-dual reality
[SPEAKER_01]: It is actually not connected to this subject object experience we have now.
[SPEAKER_01]: The subject is the individual self, the way we feel ourselves to be.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the object is this external universe.
[SPEAKER_01]: But when you make that break through at the dive, it's called it into the depths of the ocean.
[SPEAKER_01]: When this subject object duality is left on the surface, I'm trying to explain it in some way.
[SPEAKER_01]: you realize the sense of subjectivity of being a person, of thinking, talking, walking, experiencing a world is like a movie, a tiny bubble, and you are in this vastness sort of underlying it, where there is no distinction of me being a person and interacting with the real world.
[SPEAKER_01]: So in that state, you can't function.
[SPEAKER_01]: as a person.
[SPEAKER_01]: That would lead to somebody in a complete, a very deep absorption.
[SPEAKER_01]: Where whatever is happening in the world appearance and to the person, it becomes absolutely unimportant.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like you are in reality itself.
[SPEAKER_01]: But after the knowledge of that, you can
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, resurface into the world of the appearance of the objective world and you'll be firmly up a person.
[SPEAKER_01]: So Ram Krishna will talk about it, the eye doesn't go away, the individual eye will reappear again.
[SPEAKER_01]: But with the firm knowledge of what lies underneath, it's not just the tiny wave of the surface of the ocean, there is 10,000 feet of water below.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when you surface back into your individual self and experiences world again, you would go on, but you would be a Jeevan Mukta.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you would have a sense of individuality, but at individuality, you would also be very clear that's just functional, that's just to deal with the word, that's not your real nature.
[SPEAKER_01]: So an enlightened person in two senses could say,
[SPEAKER_01]: deep dive experience where the reality alone is and where individual self and objective universe and make no sense at all.
[SPEAKER_01]: There is just isness, awareness, isness, awareness and no objective, I am experiencing this, not like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's one sense in which there is no individuality left and that's always known as the truth.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now the second sense with full individuality, working, talking and saying out when the toe is stopped and yet knowing full well, this is like a tiny, tiny mask that I wear, completely flimsy and entirely dispensable.
[SPEAKER_01]: In that sense also, then light and one, while functioning, while talking to all of us, while interacting with all of us knows that that is an appearance.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why is devotion easier that we will take up next time when Sri Ram Krishna says that this is sort of background to all of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But we are talking about very good.
[SPEAKER_01]: Take care everybody.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me do the Shanti Mantra.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, shanti, shanti, hari, hium, that's a Sri Ram