[SPEAKER_00]: Hi everyone, welcome back to Room For Us, a space where queer voices thrive.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm your host, P, and every single week I like to sit down, get vulnerable, and talk about all things queer with all of you.
[SPEAKER_00]: And for today's episode, one of my very good friends, Jess, has joined the Room For Us conversation.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I have known Jess for 16 years, literally since we were 14.
[SPEAKER_00]: We grew up together, and
[SPEAKER_00]: Honestly, one thing I've loved about our friendship is that we love to Gab.
[SPEAKER_00]: We always have such interesting conversations and I feel like we get into all these different types of topics and I usually leave feeling very inspired or I'm just learning something new.
[SPEAKER_00]: And in fact, a conversation about our love for heated rivalry, the show that has like rocked everyone's world is what led to this podcast topic.
[SPEAKER_00]: And of course you can tell by the title, this podcast episode is all about the toxic side of hockey culture.
[SPEAKER_00]: And truly, like, I didn't really know much about this.
[SPEAKER_00]: I kind of had like a general idea of the misogyny and homophobia that hockey culture kind of comes with, like I do kind of, I've known about it, I guess I should say, but have never really done a deep dive.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, just now we're just having a,
[SPEAKER_00]: text and conversation just about the success of heated rivalry and how after that success, the NHL and Hockey Canada were actually making profit from this beautiful queer love story between the two main characters, Ilyan Shane, and also the character Scott and Kip, going as far as to creating like.
[SPEAKER_00]: jerseys with rosinob and Hollander or showing the kissing scene of Scott and Kit and you know it's been drawing in like a pretty big queer audience now I would say like also based off of the show and Jess been saying how a lot of this has actually been kind of frustrating to her because historically the NHL has been incredibly homophobic and then this led to an even bigger text
[SPEAKER_00]: The incredible book we breed lions by Rick Westhead, and that book actually investigates how the sports obsession with winning and profit has enabled and sometimes covered up abuse, sexual assault and harmful misogynistic behavior within junior hockey leagues.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just and I get into all of this in this episode, and also with the timing of this episode coming out, it's very relevant that we're all having these conversations now because also recently, Donald Trump made headlines after calling the US men's Olympic hockey team to congratulate them on their gold medal.
[SPEAKER_00]: But during this call, he joked that they'd also have to invite the women's
[SPEAKER_00]: In this comment, just like true immediate laughter in the locker room, and of course this sparked backlash online.
[SPEAKER_00]: The Women's Team Captain Hilary Knight later described the remark as distasteful, reigniting conversations about gender, respect, and culture in this sport.
[SPEAKER_00]: The majority of the US men team attended the state of the union February 24th, but the women's team declined.
[SPEAKER_00]: So before we get into this episode here is a content warning, this episode includes discussion of sexual assault, hazing and abuse in hockey culture, including the hockey Canada scandal involving Mike McLeod.
[SPEAKER_00]: If these topics are difficult for you, please please feel free to skip this episode or just listen with the care.
[SPEAKER_00]: I really appreciate you guys tuning in and I do hope you learn something from this episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's a very, very important conversation to have and also thank you so much, Jess, for wanting to be a part of this conversation.
[SPEAKER_00]: I couldn't have done this episode without you.
[SPEAKER_00]: And for the room for us listeners, I wanted to give Jess's business a shoutout, the Underdog Collective.
[SPEAKER_00]: She is a multi-certified positive reinforcement based dog trainer and owner of her own separation anxiety pup Luna, the sweetest girl.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you want to follow Jess's journey or even book a session, you can visit her website underdogco.ca or follow the dot underdog.co on Instagram.
[SPEAKER_00]: Can you tell the room for us listeners a little bit about yourself and why you wanted to join this conversation?
[SPEAKER_01]: I've been really good friends with Persa for years, like since high school and I think that person I have always
[SPEAKER_01]: had conversations about things in media and things laser portrayed and shows we like and musically like.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think this conversation came really naturally kind of when you're like, hey, have you seen he did rivalry and I was like, no, and then I watched it and then we started chatting about just the piece of art in general that it is and like how much we both love it, but also some stuff about
[SPEAKER_01]: Hawkey in general, and professional Hawkey in the way that so many people are being drawn to the sport now, and maybe don't know or understand why some of the challenges even exist for like Shane and Elia in heated rivalry, like why it's so hard for them to be openly queer Hawkey players.
[SPEAKER_01]: And certainly I think people have ideas, maybe around it, but there's like a pretty dark underbelly to the professional Hawkey world, and I think we have a lot of great conversations about it and wanted to just
[SPEAKER_01]: bring it to your viewers and your platform.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I think bringing up heated rivalry is so important because like you said, that's kind of where this conversation stemmed from because we're both so into that show.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think you said you watched it twice or three times?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think yeah, three times.
[SPEAKER_01]: I watched it twice and then I read the book.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had to watch it for time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, it's a really important conversation to have because I don't think this is something I've even brought up on the podcast as this is obviously like a very queer podcast and I haven't had many chances to bring in like hockey cultures specifically like I have talked about sports and queerness but with heated rivalry coming out and being a gay show really like even more so than I think about the hockey storyline I'm just curious like yeah you're like
[SPEAKER_01]: I watched it with my husband, and I remember my brother loving like, well, like, I think you'll like it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a great show, but it's a lot less of a hockey and a lot more about gay sex, but I thought it was going to be like a love story, really.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I feel like we hear this a lot.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I've never really thought about it too much to be honest.
[SPEAKER_00]: But when we say like hockey culture is toxic, what do you think that actually means?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think more talking about culture in general,
[SPEAKER_01]: And like, which I guess, which culture where when I'm thinking about hockey culture, I am thinking about like the professional world of hockey and like elite athlete status level and that's not to say that doesn't trickle down into like your AAA local teams or AA or host league teams even, but kind of this greater scale that we have where.
[SPEAKER_01]: people are like really platformed and when we do think about culture, it's more of like this pervasive view that's entrenched within that world rather than like a couple people holding views or making choices that are not super cool for lack of a better and more eloquent way to say that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's not just like a couple coaches that have maybe done some things that are inappropriate or a
[SPEAKER_01]: said things that are offensive.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like really this group mindset and mentality around do they are as hockey players and people and like how entrenched those views are in things like massage and your homophobia.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I've always been seeing hockey known to be this really tough sport and you know, it's like some people even have fear like I know my sister even has like fear of getting her boys into hockey.
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like because it's marketed as such, you know, it's like it's tough, people get in fights.
[SPEAKER_00]: It kind of becomes like centered around that.
[SPEAKER_00]: So where do you think like toughness crosses the line into like emotional repression or even homophobia like that we hear in the locker room talk?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I think it's a huge part of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's a huge part of, I think, players sometimes are protected by the league itself because of the culture of toughness that is perpetrated by, like, by players, by coaches, by all of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I grew up playing hockey.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was talking with my husband about kind of language used on the ice when he was growing up playing hockey.
[SPEAKER_01]: And as a woman, girl playing hockey, I didn't feel the same.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I guess, pressure to be tough or be, like, a certain way.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I remember him saying to me that the F word was as ubiquitous as like the R word that wasn't the case from you like I didn't I didn't hear homophobic language very often so I think it yeah it's it starts with that and with this like pressure to be manly in the opposite of being manly is being gay or being a woman so so many of the slurs used on the ice I think are like
[SPEAKER_01]: misogynist or or homophobic because of this, I guess pressure to be tough and toughness being hailed is
[SPEAKER_01]: what you're supposed to be is a hockey player and so the most insulting thing you could be would be not tough.
[SPEAKER_00]: We obviously see the show heated rivalry where it's these like two mask men who are falling in love with each other.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I love that it showcases like queer love in the hockey world and we even see like Scott and Kip story.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like that was one of my favorite storylines, definitely.
[SPEAKER_00]: Was the episodes featuring them?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, this is great, but like, why does hockey, which I feel like more than some other sports, feel like still so resistant to queerness?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I was wondering this too because I mean, I think there is like we've mentioned this culture of toughness and you mentioned a little bit earlier about like fighting being a group part of the sport that we don't really see in other professional sports.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I think maybe LaCrosse, you can fist fight but like people aren't brawling and basketball.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just interesting that like that's part of the sport.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then we have like this particular sport that we don't really have openly queer
[SPEAKER_01]: People in the NHL where we do have openly queer athletes in the NBA and the NFL not many of them, but there are people that have come out and so I'm not I don't I don't know specifically what it is about hockey and we'll chat about the mindset in general if like what makes hockey as a sport different than other sports and I think that that might play into it a little bit where
[SPEAKER_01]: Hockey, it's so entrenched in these kids at such a young age that it's such a team sport and like you're there for your boys and it's all like about the team and so I think that mentality is a little different than in other sports or two different degree like people.
[SPEAKER_01]: Have teammates on other sports too and like care about their team and other sports, but it's like.
[SPEAKER_01]: even when you're asked about things as an individual as a hockey player like typically you're answering as like representing your team and that's drilled into them from so early and so I wonder if that's part of this like you can't stand out and be different because you are the face of like a team identity.
[SPEAKER_01]: I certainly think that that plays some piece but I also
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's more than that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's that hockey's like a really affluent white sport as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's less tolerance maybe for difference within just that general demographic.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because it's already like so specific to that and like you said it's like a majority.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like a white sport for sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: We read lines by Rick Westhead paints an honest picture of hockey culture, highlighting card truths about the ways aggression and silence can be rewarded.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're not really meant to be open about your emotion.
[SPEAKER_00]: So how do you think like those values shape how like the players treat each other?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, I think everything, I think it makes it such a boys club.
[SPEAKER_01]: at the end of the day, like they really don't have a lot of room for outsideers.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do know in that book that reporter had a very hard time getting in touch with anyone that would talk about the league or their experiences openly and definitely not through like management of the team.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like it was through more individual players or retired players.
[SPEAKER_01]: or players that had a junior hockey career, but didn't go on to have as successful of a hockey career in their future.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that culture of silence, like you're talking about, is protective of a lot of people because it's...
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I would hope they know that some of the things that they're doing are if exposed would not be good or look good on hockey Canada or junior hockey or NHL players.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so interesting to even watch a hockey player be interviewed and how private they are about literally everything except for like what they did on the ice with their team in that moment.
[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm, and you do feel like this is more of like an NHL problem?
[SPEAKER_01]: Probably not.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's just that we've had opportunities to uncover this at the more elite level because there's some form of like accountability and transparency that's necessary when like public funds are going towards public programs like hockey Canada.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so we have like a right as a society to know about what those funds are like covering or who those funds are supporting, whereas like at like a double a level in your hometown, it's a different story, like I think they're certainly toxic values that go on at really high level hockey as well, anyone that goes on to be an elite player that's that is where they came from.
[SPEAKER_01]: but kind of this like culture around like these athletes being playing at this level in Canada where hockey is Canada sport and being like local heroes, I think goes to nurture a more toxic mindset than just like your average kid playing hostly hockey, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Definitely.
[SPEAKER_00]: When I was like doing a little bit of research, I was seeing this come up, which I was like, let me know if this is true, but they were saying like some codes in hockey are like, you don't snitch, like, don't show weakness.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, why do you think that is?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, what is that?
[SPEAKER_00]: Where does that tie into like hockey culture?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, the don't snitch thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, what does that even mean?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think bonding, like I think you're so bonded and owe so much to your team, but as far as don't snitch like there's some like awful stuff that is part of haze and rituals and hockey there's like this
[SPEAKER_01]: junior hockey Bible that was created by some junior hockey players that we're making a peril and like that I think that don't snitch maybe comes from that hood of conduct but that whole coat of conduct reads basically like how to get away with sexual assault manual like it is so disgusting and I do think that because that is going on and that's how they are treating people specifically how a lot of hockey players are treating women we have this like don't
[SPEAKER_00]: I had no idea like that's what it was tied to.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think that and like a lot of the hazing rituals that go on for these players when they're like 15 16 starting a junior hockey career and their rookies and like the things that were happening to them at the hands of like more veteran players.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's just like all hush hush super hush it's coming again coming to light a lot more now but a lot of those rituals involve homophobic humiliating sexual acts in front of everyone in a locker room or on a bus or group sexual assault essentially like hooking up with a girl telling her is just going to be you and then showing up with members of your team uh which we can chat about
[SPEAKER_01]: and how that has kind of come to global light and I think that hockey candidate case really shine a light on like these pacing routines that are.
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, they're just like awful for these 15, 16-year-old boys to be facing and like not, I guess not know what to do and then have this culture of like shut up and stay quiet and like people did this to me so I'm going to do it to you.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like a cycle of abuse.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like a continued thing or like tradition.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is tradition, but it's obvious.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And even like coaches will be on a bus and know what's going on.
[SPEAKER_01]: They know like that five rookies are being forced to strip naked and go into the back bathroom and find like a bunch of change on the ground and they can't come out until they sound the appropriate amount of change.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like just really humiliating things like that that are happening to young kids.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you know if that type of like hazing is done in other sports?
[SPEAKER_01]: Probably like it feels like frapp by hazing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, when we're talking about culture and similarities like that, it wouldn't surprise me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how much opportunity things like this have been able to come to light because of how, again, how shush things are and how quiet things are kept like I don't know
[SPEAKER_01]: If without some of the recent reporting we had and like something like the hot the EM trial hockey candidate coming to light that that this would be uncovered in our junior hockey leagues.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like this probably so much more.
[SPEAKER_00]: Obviously that we just don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I would think so because I think this is a problem for a lot of people at just like an elite sport level.
[SPEAKER_01]: The mindset of in the sense of entitlement and also the sense of
[SPEAKER_01]: the way that these boys bond with each other.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we talked about this a little bit like we've seen players and teams publicly support pride initiatives, but there's also been backlash.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you think this is going towards real change or do you think this is surface level like we're going to support pride because like everybody does?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think on a player level that
[SPEAKER_01]: actively wanting to support a cause or talk about a cause or where gear that shows that there's an ally.
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's different than I think that the leagues take on it is pretty performative.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think I was talking to you about how, you know, when he arrived where we came out, there's like all this praise for it.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're playing the soundtrack at games now.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're like playing the Scott and Kipkiss at games before they do the kiss cam.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like they're
[SPEAKER_01]: They banned the pride tape and jersey from the league and said that it was drawing attention away from like the sport and bringing to light other things like the fact that some players were refusing to wear that here and such like protects people that didn't want to wear the gear no one's a lot to wear the gear like no one's a lot to wear the taper the jerseys and it's just becoming a distraction.
[SPEAKER_01]: is basically the commissioners' words on why that band was walked back.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think the league is pretty performative in any pride initiatives that happen.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think a lot of stuff that's going on right now like they're selling all under a rose and out of your preseason certain ranks.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that feels performative because
[SPEAKER_01]: How can you sell those jerseys in band pride gear completely from the league like two years prior and saying that it's a distraction and in in in some sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: What reason it was cited that the band happened was that a lot of Russian players like could not wear pride gear because they would be persecuted in their own country and that makes sense like it saved that question.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, Russian players opting out of wearing pride gear.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think that anyone is going to point a finger at those players, but I think a lot of other players then.
[SPEAKER_01]: didn't want to wear the gear, but didn't want people to know that they didn't want to wear pride gear because you're outing them for being homophobic.
[SPEAKER_01]: Being homophobic, yeah, they don't want people to know that they don't want to wear pride, because they don't support, you know, and then that's what the commissioner essentially said was distracting about the gear and band it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think to jump on as well, like just because of the success.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and be at a rivalry is like it's such an eye roll when you say it's such an eye roll.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like no, it's so toned up to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like no, all this stuff and like all this marketing off of it with no discussion or
[SPEAKER_01]: any sort of even like consideration of like why it's so hard for these two players to be openly gay in that way.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, you know, it's just like, oh, yeah, we had a story that's bringing like so many new people to hockey.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's like really capitalize off of that without like acknowledging what their role is in creating hardship for those characters.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's such a good point.
[SPEAKER_00]: Why was it so hard for them?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because of how it is in professional hockey culture and when we even look back at the show, this was like a 10 year journey for Ilya and Shane.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you're jumping on and now because you're like, oh, everyone loves heated rivalry, but when you really look into the meaning of the show, it's like very heartbreaking.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like why is it so hard for these two people to be in a relationship?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like there's no acknowledgement of that at all by the league.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just like let's sell these jerseys and play this video of.
[SPEAKER_01]: of Kippen Scott and like, yay.
[SPEAKER_00]: We kind of talked about this in the beginning.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're like hockey is deeply tied to ideas of traditional masculinity for sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I know you mentioned to like, Ellis was playing when he was younger.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just curious, like, how early do you think like this conditioning starts with like the masculinity and hockey culture?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, it's so interesting that you say your sister's scared to have her kids play hockey because I think a lot of parents are like, I like hockey is a sport, but I don't like the kids not play hockey and I've heard people say that a lot so I do think, you know, I think little boys playing hockey like it's not starting there depending on who their coaches are obviously, but I think it starts really fast when you get competitive in hockey.
[SPEAKER_01]: So,
[SPEAKER_01]: And I could be perfectly wrong in this insaneness, but I did talk to my husband who grew up playing hockey, I have a lot of friends at grew up playing hockey, I grew up playing hockey, and I know it's different for women than men, but I don't think any of us that just played at a casual recreational level felt the more toxic and overwhelming pieces of it, but I do think that kids that play at a really,
[SPEAKER_01]: high level, not only have pressure, especially from coaches who don't speak to them very nicely or parents that put a lot of pressure on them But they've also like never been told no in their entire lives a lot of these boys like they come from really affluent backgrounds that their parents have like bought their spot onto a team or they've spent thousands of dollars in like power skating and hockey camps and equipment and like all this stuff and so I think like
[SPEAKER_01]: the fact that that's just how they've grown up and they've always been like a star.
[SPEAKER_01]: Kind of nurtures.
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess not traditional masculinity, but these like those those values and those aspects, but also like this, I don't want to say narcissists from that kind of cockiness or lack of maybe empathy towards other people because they're just always the most important person in the room.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I really think it depends like how competitive you play and at what level probably but by the time kids are 15 or by the time you know great nine boys are playing on the same team as like great eight boys.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think there's probably some not so good stuff going on in general.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah and one thing to think about too is like isn't hockey one of the
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like if it's quite expensive to buy ice time, if you're a kid playing and you have to get new equipment, like every other year, like equipment's quite expensive, it is definitely like a high barrier to entry, which is why it's such a white kid sport.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, like that's a really good point that I didn't even think about was like even to really get to that level of.
[SPEAKER_00]: going competitive and like there's so much money involved with that that I that I maybe do think more with other sports because of all the equipment involved in everything.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not like a cheap sport.
[SPEAKER_01]: No not like soccer where you buy some shin pads and some cleats and you pay you know 300 bucks for a season.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like quite expensive.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the season's long right, hockey season runs all year like September into May and some leagues and like soccer is maybe
[SPEAKER_00]: yeah definitely yeah yeah so when you're looking at the demographics of that and then maybe also like the kids who are as you mentioned like maybe the stars or they're not being told no like it does like that environment you can only imagine like what that will do to somebody in already with how toxic boys can be yeah
[SPEAKER_01]: How talk sick?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, boys in certain like neighborhoods or pockets can be at that age and like the rhetoric that goes around and then you put them in these positions where they are like the kings as well and where their parents spend so much money trying to get them to elite levels of hockey and it's yeah kind of a recipe, I think for
[SPEAKER_01]: for what we do see at the elite level.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was Googling a little bit.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I remember the news about Luke Pro Cop.
[SPEAKER_00]: In 2021, he became the first player under contract with an NHL team to publicly come out as gay.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then now there's been some other hockey players a former gold tender Brock McGillis and then Jesse Cortouiam.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, and he shared his story like earlier this year.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And was one of them like didn't they share this story because of heat of rivalry?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think yeah, the last guy you mentioned, Jesse I'm pretty sure did share this story because of because of the show.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know how much has come out since then.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like these were kind of the top players that came out like for my search when I was looking this up.
[SPEAKER_00]: But like, do you think that news like this will transform culture or do you do feel like it's still stagnant?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's hard to say.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think we're hopefully moving in a better direction.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think there is more accountability lately and better conversations that are happening in the hockey world that have hopefully made it feel safer for people associated with hockey to come out.
[SPEAKER_01]: But
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you mentioned, Luke, the first kiddo that you mentioned is under contract.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he was drafted by the NHL, but he plays in the age, all right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's still not an openly queer hockey player in the NHL.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think probably some of that is like the amount of pressure.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be for like the first person to do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure that is stressful for whoever.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's potentially struggling with that, but also that it's like you said this culture of silence, people are private.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have this not wanting to detract or distract from what's going on the ice attitude in so many ways.
[SPEAKER_00]: So which is so fabulous.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like what is someone's sexual orientation have to do with like distracting when they say that, you know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because it's not about hockey.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so interesting too that like when we speak about women in sports versus men in school and just like how normalized it is if you are a gay female hockey player basketball players I get athletes just in general.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's almost like expected.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's it's very interesting that it's a safer space for professional women athletes to come out and I think a big part of it is that it is like that it's not a boys club like
[SPEAKER_01]: There's people in higher positions that are making it so that these types of conversations can happen and people feel safe to have those conversations and to be themselves and I just I that's not happening in in men's professional sports.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, not at all.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, even with just sports culture in general and how I feel like it's still, there's so much misogyny as well because it's almost like if you're a woman and you're playing a sport, you're looked at as someone who's like, quote unquote, manly, I feel like that's always such a narrative which is so frustrating because there's so many women, straight women who play sports who are like, I'm also very feminine.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just so interesting to see the two and be like, well, when you're a man, who plays a sport, you're meant to be tough and masculine and straight.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you're a woman, you're a lesbian.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: And to the detriment of yourself, too, for hockey players, like you have people playing with broken ribs or you have the commissioner of the NHL still denying that CTE is a problem for professional athletes that take a lot of hits to the head and people playing through like concussions when they should end concussion protocol has gotten a ton better.
[SPEAKER_01]: But for the commissioner of the league to still say that they need to see more science to make a choice about whether CTE is something that affects hockey players
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, you're expected to play through pain, like that is just instilled in these guys.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my God, that is crazy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, not to mention like mental health stuff that goes on in the hockey league too, like that because of this denial of like CTE or issues that can happen to men, like addiction or depression or any other thing that a man should seek there before, like there's such a, I think a stigma around that still for these players who probably could use it in certain times.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, and like any, any player that's like died prematurely basically in the NHL, it's been from some sort of mental health related challenge like it's very, it's really sad are the stats like pretty high on that do you know it's a good question.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: want to look into that later.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's no sad.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no, it's it's really sad.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know like in in the book that we're talking about, we read Lyons there.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think you and I are both really familiar with the humble Broncos bus crash that kill players, but there's actually a bus crash in the 80s that happen with the same like with the Broncos, I think they were maybe the swift current Broncos at that time, but bus crash four players died in that and the coach didn't let any of the players that survive go to therapy because.
[SPEAKER_01]: he didn't deem it necessary that coach was also sexually assaulting kids on that team so He didn't obviously want those players to go to therapy and divulge that information But he yeah, that's what the culture of like toughness is essentially with this book I think it touches on a lot when I was reading this an office this of it with like the like even sexual assault scandals did Rick talk about like the big hockey Canada
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's a big point in the book and like how we got like how do we get there because it's wild.
[SPEAKER_00]: For the listeners who might not be aware of this, do you want to give like a quick little synopsis of like what happened?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, um, in June of 2018, I believe there was a girl that was at like out in London with her friends, and the Canada World Junior's team of that year happened to be out at the same bar.
[SPEAKER_01]: She went back to the one of the guys.
[SPEAKER_01]: She went back with to his hotel room and he ended up sending a mask text to his team saying anyone up for a three way and they're ended up being like kind of a revolving door of hockey players coming in and out of that room throughout the rest of the night.
[SPEAKER_01]: Five players, like sexually assaulted her, but there were many players coming in to like watch things take place as well without intervening or doing anything and when she initially reported it
[SPEAKER_01]: Like London police took her complaint, it didn't really thoroughly investigate it very well.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hawkey candidate did not come out and speak about it, even though they were informed that this happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: They kind of kept it under wraps.
[SPEAKER_01]: They actually privately settled with the complaint and disclosed them out, we're not sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: But that fund, whatever they settled with ended up being kind of really, a really big deal.
[SPEAKER_01]: They call it the national equity fund and turns out it's settled over seven million different settlements of sexual assault.
[SPEAKER_01]: From victims privately through hockey Canada without having to go through insurance that national equity fund is actually lined by Minor league registration fees so it's like kids playing sports in Canada are like paying Their registration fees are going towards hockey Canada settling sexual assault cases from their juniors players My god, yeah, and there was a really public like horrible court case it ended up going to court just this past summer
[SPEAKER_01]: um and all of them were found not guilty.
[SPEAKER_01]: They were suspended from the league before their verdict came back, but um yeah, verdict came back not guilty on all five counts and they're all able to be drafted.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you know why they were not guilty?
[SPEAKER_01]: It was really complicated like the way the trial went so they had a jury.
[SPEAKER_01]: They had to redo their jury selection because it was like poisoned and then again, there was some sort of conflict so they ended up getting rid of the jury completely and having a judge only trial and the judge was really hard on the victim.
[SPEAKER_01]: she was on the stand for nine days testifying what happened to her and like the way the judge like she handed back this deliberation that was pages and pages a lot like an unprecedented reading of her decision and like was very insulting to the victim.
[SPEAKER_01]: So like a lot of
[SPEAKER_01]: victim blaming and like rape myths within the sentence she handed down.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that was a big problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think like under a different judge and maybe under a jury it could have been different.
[SPEAKER_01]: She also didn't allow evidence to be a myth like they had a text chain going on about what had happened and it was very telling and that evidence was deemed in an admissible by the judge despite like
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure what was actually wrong with it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'd have to look into that a little more, but it would have been probably pretty critical in showing that these boys had some wrong doing in what happened that night.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was kind of a mess.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's I think in general, it's really hard.
[SPEAKER_01]: for any sexual assault trial to like be for anyone that's put on trial for sexual assault to be found guilty because it's like one person having words against them.
[SPEAKER_01]: A really critical part of this particular trial was that the boys had captured what they called consent videos from the victim.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they had her saying like
[SPEAKER_01]: This is all consensual.
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't worry on camera while the events were taking place or after the events had taken place.
[SPEAKER_01]: In one of the videos, she's like wiping her eye crying.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my god, yeah, because it's clearly like an intimidation tactic.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she's over in third.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we'll came out after on Twitter and like I was talking to my husband about this because I don't know if it's like the league teaching players to do this or other players telling players to do this, but there's so many women that have hooked up with her level hockey players that say that they
[SPEAKER_01]: have a concept, they took a concept video of the woman saying this is consensual.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not consent, and like in the text chain, all these boys are like, we got her consent, we have her on video were good and like so if that's like their understanding of what consent looks like, like consent is, you know, we know what consent is, is ongoing, you have to give it for every single act, you can retract it at any moment you want.
[SPEAKER_01]: So to consent to going home and she did say I
[SPEAKER_01]: and then he invited his full team up to the room and she didn't consent to that.
[SPEAKER_01]: She didn't consent to any of the acts that happened to her afterward.
[SPEAKER_01]: But because there was this that we consent video, which you can't use to deem, whether someone is consented, but the judge actually said she used it to deem how intoxicated the defendant or the victim was at the time and said that she didn't seem that drunk to her.
[SPEAKER_01]: in the video.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my god in this judge was a woman.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like pretty shocking.
[SPEAKER_00]: And who's to say like do they have like multiple times stamps too?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because it's like, was it one video?
[SPEAKER_00]: It could have been like what's the duration of the night and like what they're even giving her?
[SPEAKER_01]: They have two videos of her saying it's all consensual.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not sure what the timestamps were, but they align with like, they have camera footage of her leaving the bar with Mike McCloud of her like entering the hotel of him going down to the lobby to get food at one point in the night.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the timestamps of the video, like they were taking during the encounter, but not sure like in between which acts they were taken.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think after like a group sexual assault happens they're like, well, we need to get her on video saying
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's like they're trained, like you mentioned to maybe just that's what they do to get the video either either from other people in the league who like recommend it as good advice, but like if that's what these players think consent is that's a huge problem right for them.
[SPEAKER_00]: that is so sad.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is definitely like a tough question to answer, so like because it could it could mean a lot of things, but like what would healthy hockey culture look like?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I like I don't know where it starts.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if it starts like at the grassroots level.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, after the scandal came out about Hawkey Canada and this complainant, they fired a lot of like upper management people in like region.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're born.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's important.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think like more women involved in Hawkey Canada is a step.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think like actual workshops in training about what consent means and looks like is a step probably actual workshops in training about diversity in general, whether that's like racial diversity or sexual orientation.
[SPEAKER_01]: super important like these are just things these players never learn like they go away from their families at 15 or 16 years old and they don't go to school anymore like they're not exposed to anything but hockey and they're they're bros so having those types of discussions I think are incredibly necessary because as early as like early 2000s there was no discussions about consent and I think when.
[SPEAKER_01]: you're in that position as like a young player, like a local hero, even like there's so much talk lately, more after me too, it came a huge movement about like how power dynamics play into people's ability to consent and like what that does to a person's
[SPEAKER_01]: fight, fight, freeze or fawn responses, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And so to understand even that like when you have that power over someone or when it's five of you in a room, and you're all 200 pound professional athletes and you have like 130 pound girl in there, that consent isn't her just filming a video.
[SPEAKER_01]: The problem is that so many of these people in upper positions are older men that don't see anything wrong with hockey culture and hockey is so defensive of itself, like they don't want people scrutinizing
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you do like you're an enemy like there's so many people in Rick's book that have asked for their names to not be used because of the way it would impact their career like if you speak up your opportunities are going to be taken from you That is just how it's going to work because like don't talk bad about hockey like and they don't want anyone to they don't want anyone to look at them with a fine tooth comb so I think it will take a lot of people coming out about how they've been impacted
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that that will happen with like just conversations in general getting better about mental health like I know that they've started to have better mental health supports in the NHL for players that there's players that can go get help and support now for like addiction for and it's all have very confidential to that I think is a good step, but I think yeah more people talking about their experiences to will be part of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you said, there's probably so much fear because they did like that could impact their whole life trajectory.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's really sad when you feel like you like there's so many facets to this just in the world.
[SPEAKER_00]: But when you feel like you don't have any power because like this league and like the power they have and how they can just determine like what's next for you or like blacklist you or whatever it takes it's scary.
[SPEAKER_01]: your whole career, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like some of these kids have been playing hockey since they were four and like that's their whole life.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so to speak up about things or to deviate from what a hockey player's whistle look like is it is very scary for them.
[SPEAKER_00]: I definitely think more women involved would be huge.
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess like is, do we know of any?
[SPEAKER_01]: women in, yeah, and at like board level and management level, but it's still like statistically totally not representative.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, more queer people in these positions too, more people color in these positions, just more diversity in general, just more people that are in white men that played hockey all their lives and eat sleep and breathe hockey because that's what is just this big boys club right now that they don't see anything
[SPEAKER_01]: wrong and we're just having these cycles perpetrated like a get for coaches to be on a bus while kids are being forced to strip and thrown into back bathrooms to pick up change like for coaches to be like Oh, ha ha fun he's saying we're like another he's in ritual like it's forced alcohol consumption to like ridiculous amounts for these young kids and it happens like at coaches poses.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when we're talking about like change in culture like I it's it's so
[SPEAKER_01]: hard to see where that cycle is going to end because that's like that's so normal for these people.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like even the the one guy Mike McCloud are implicated in that group sexual assault with hockey candidate he was the one that texted everyone come up to my room.
[SPEAKER_01]: That same guy is also implicated in potentially implicated there's two 16-year-olds on the team at the time and one of the 16-year-olds is accusome.
[SPEAKER_01]: sexually assaulting someone in Mississauga in a group sexual assault when he was in on an OHL team with other players on that team as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if it was Mike McLeod then it's like all right, well, if he didn't if he didn't take part in that group sexual assault, which was probably part of his like team initiation, would this hockey camera in a scandal even on the half end, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's just like what he was taught to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: Not that not in an excuse way, but like as at
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, definitely how you treat women.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is what you do with your teammates.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And like this goes into like even just fraught culture in university and how bad the hate thing can be.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I remember I shared this video with you, uh, called Boys Don't Cry and bands I'm in burn partnered with White Ribbon to like showcase just a really powerful like film just showing like
[SPEAKER_00]: You're right, like how like boys are really conditioned and like even the media they listen to to be like these angry men who like don't address their emotions they don't cry they like hate women literally
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, like that's and it's like anyone who rejects you anything like that like they're the enemy right and that was what was like so shocking about that film is like you see this like young boy like grow up that way and it ends with him that's actually assaulting a girl yeah and it's the same with like when you think of generational cycles of like abuse right these are
[SPEAKER_01]: It's their family at the end of the day, they're team like they're with them all of the time and for them to be like raised around these people and for those people to be raised by the people before them or for coaches even like there's coaches and positions of power that are sexually assaulting players that is so hush hush and under wraps I think there's like maybe two players that have come forward with their names, but there's been.
[SPEAKER_01]: so many settlements of coaches, sexually assaulting players.
[SPEAKER_01]: So for that to be like the norm, and then that to get perpetrated is, yeah, difficult to see where the change is going to happen.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because it still feels like it's really tough to come forward, because it happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: Did you watch Alex Cooper's documentary by chance?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm not her documentary, sorry, but I listen to her on our own church expert.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, did she talk about what happened to her?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, with the, yeah, which is like, I think what happened was nothing happened to the coach.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think she just left.
[SPEAKER_01]: She had to leave the team.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that was typically the case in the NHL.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's Rick West has first story that he really broke was about Kyle Beach, who was playing for the Chicago Blackhawks during their copyright in like 2010.
[SPEAKER_01]: And
[SPEAKER_01]: He was sexually assaulted by a video coach and came forward with allegations, but because it was turning the playoffs, no one properly handled reporting because they didn't want to distract from hockey.
[SPEAKER_01]: So no one reported this to any higher level until much much later, and it was not handled.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was just completely terrible.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was terrible.
[SPEAKER_01]: After that, teammates were throwing homophobic slurs at Kyle Beach because he was sexually assaulted by a man.
[SPEAKER_01]: uh I yeah it's it's disgusting and like that person's career is so tanked after they come forward like what what else are you going to do your whole team is like you brought that upon hockey.
[SPEAKER_01]: Of course like you brought a negative light to our team even the coaches like they were suspended but like within three years they're back coaching other teams like there's just no accountability.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not real accountability yeah it's like it's like a slap on the wrist.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's people that knew a player was being sexually assaulted and didn't report it.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're just allowed to go back and like, there's no repercussions.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's so aggravated.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's sad.
[SPEAKER_00]: I am curious if there's going to be any changes with that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, just with the popularity of heated rivalry, but I just I wonder if it's.
[SPEAKER_00]: coming from like the right, not the right reasons.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I'm trying to figure out the phrasing for this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like obviously, I think it's revolutionary to see this kind of story.
[SPEAKER_00]: But like you mentioned too, it just seems like maybe the NHL or these major hockey leaves are like profiting off of it more than like.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is going to change things for players.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think like it would be great if they were picking that piggybacking off of it to promote like actual change or like actual conversations.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I don't feel like that's what's happening.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's when we started this conversation in the first place.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I like sent you something about Jersey's being sold as like this is I'm like my eye is twitching.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, he basically the sentiment I just said where it's like you're going to use that show and like
[SPEAKER_01]: talk about it on your platform, like you should be backing what you're saying, not just with like your marketing, but with real openness to diversity.
[SPEAKER_00]: Not just like selling these jerseys.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I do think for some of them, their proceeds were going to Pride Initiative, which hopefully 100% of proceeds were going to Pride Initiative, but for all the people that are finding this
[SPEAKER_01]: I like I said, grew up playing it, grew up going to leaf games with my dad, grew up watching it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I like hockey, but for people coming to the space now because of a queer love story and finding joy and that and finding joy in the sport because of that, which I think is great, but I think it's also important to know like traditionally.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like for me, I've stepped away from hockey so many times in my lives because it doesn't feel like a safe space for women or for queer people.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, definitely because it is going to bring in like a new crowd for sure like I'd be even for me like I'm more interested for sure because of heat of rivalry which I think a lot of queer people who maybe weren't as invested in hockey before yeah I knew like start to see it or now they like kind of want to watch the games or even some of the friends Cristal and I have made here we want to go watch like the golden eyes now and like see women in hockey you know so it's
[SPEAKER_00]: It's it's nice to see that excitement, but when yeah, when you and I were talking about it, I was like, yeah, I don't know much about this culture, but all I've heard is how toxic it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, especially.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think it's like important that people.
[SPEAKER_01]: that are newer to the space like know that because when they've come to it through heat of rivalry and they see stuff like oh Gary Batman the commissioner is like I bidged it all in one night.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a great show.
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't read the quote entirely.
[SPEAKER_01]: He also says stuff about it being distracting from watching in that actual quote.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's just like so I don't know I think people deserve to know the whole story and like no
[SPEAKER_01]: where the roots are and like why things like honestly why it like I said it's so hard for two hockey players to come out as queer like we still in 2026 don't have anyone in the NHL that's openly queer.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, which is how people know that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wild.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because there's certainly queer people statistically.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're certainly gay hockey players.
[SPEAKER_01]: They just they don't feel like they can come out.
[SPEAKER_00]: 100%.
[SPEAKER_00]: It even makes me think of that conversation in the show with Rose and Shane when she's asking him, she's like, are there gay hockey players?
[SPEAKER_00]: And then she stops herself and she's like, oh, obviously they're on.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, of course there are, but is it safe to be gay and as a professional hockey player?
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow, this is a really good conversation.
[SPEAKER_00]: I do really want to read
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a good, I definitely recommend that for anyone that wants to learn more.
[SPEAKER_01]: Kristi Lee from Canadian True Crime did a great five-part series about the hockey Canada Junior's sexual assault scandal.
[SPEAKER_01]: Really showcasing things, breaking apart that whole court case.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was very, very interesting and a good take.
[SPEAKER_01]: She does have two survivors on the show.
[SPEAKER_01]: One of them was the person that
[SPEAKER_01]: accused Jacob Hogard of sexual assault and got a guilty verdict and she is actually on the show with Chrissy Lee breaking down the hockey candidate trial from the perspective of someone that was very publicly on trial and ripped apart on the stand by like rate myths, terrible prosecutors.
[SPEAKER_01]: her trial is also miserable about her take on it for someone that's been in like a similar boat as that girl who is testifying against five like local heroes, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's really interesting, listen.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's awesome.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll link those both in the show notes and then I'll also listen myself because I have I haven't even heard of them like that podcast or like and you know I love a little true crime.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you love a true time moment?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so I and it also just helps to be aware to learn more and it's just like very eye opening and very sad that I do hope it gets better.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, me too.
[SPEAKER_01]: I
[SPEAKER_01]: hope that it does.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm glad that we have something that brings joy in that space for queer people right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because it does bring a lot of joy like they, like I said, even this show has been on my mind for like, since it's, yeah, launched when, like November, December.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the hold the show has on people is ridiculous in the best way.
[SPEAKER_00]: In the best way, it's a fantastic show.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, Jess, thank you for this conversation.
[SPEAKER_00]: are talks about heated rivalry, like led to something even larger, because I like hockey too, like I enjoy watching it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want this to be like me coming on to talk to you and like bash it or anything, like there's so much to love about hockey, but it's like there's things need to change.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I don't think that's the intent of anyone, but I think it's a really big problem when hockey isn't able to be criticized, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think it's important that someone can
[SPEAKER_01]: up a mirror to that world and point out the flaws without feeling like they're going to be I don't know, lose jobs because of it or like publicly breamed because of it because people are so protective of a pocky as Canada sport.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it is hard to criticize it but I think it's important too as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, definitely.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, thanks again, Jess.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for having me.