[SPEAKER_03]: Welcome to another episode of Shooting the Shirt with Literary Agents, Carly Waters, and CC Lyra.
[SPEAKER_03]: Where we dissect publishing gossip, discuss book industry trends, and the overall state of the book business.
[SPEAKER_03]: If you'd ever wanted to grab a coffee with two literary agents, grab your mug, and pull up a chair.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hello CC, how are you?
[SPEAKER_03]: busy and well how are you how was your weekend as your week been so far it's been good this weekend was kind of nice and quiet at home which was good i went skiing with the kids i've had a bunch of hockey i've been on i feel like i've been on the go a lot this year i was in New York which you guys knew about and then i went to see the backstreet boys in Las Vegas right after that so that was really fun with my friends we did five couples so like five guys five women the five women
[SPEAKER_03]: It was great, but this was a very nice quiet weekend at home.
[SPEAKER_03]: I cleaned up my closet, which I was very proud of myself.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love making my own clothes.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to drop off at the consignment store and yeah, it was good.
[SPEAKER_02]: How about you?
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm such a nerd.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love cleaning out closet.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like it brings me joy.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I love it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love organizing.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't like cleaning, but I love organizing.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was in New York and let me see I worked on slides for my class.
[SPEAKER_02]: Wait, when does this air?
[SPEAKER_02]: So if this air is on Monday, it airs down March 2nd.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's so I'm speaking to CC in the future today.
[SPEAKER_02]: You are starting your class on March 2nd.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I worked on slides and as usual, the slides are out of control.
[SPEAKER_02]: Obviously.
[SPEAKER_02]: Not something that I'm surprised about, writing interiority is a big enough subject.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now I'm doing interiority and psychological equity, and you just have so much to cover.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the slides are like the funnest part for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, teaching might be the funnest part, but I love creating slides because
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm always challenging on fiction clients, like you have to distill everything, like your whole message into like one counterintuitive, interesting, intriguing, not just informative, intriguing, message, and slides are that, like a microversion of that, obviously, with every different point you're making.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, worked on the slides, I have a bet going on with myself about how long this course is going to be.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like five days.
[SPEAKER_02]: So,
[SPEAKER_02]: If I do, I mean, there's no way all any of the days will be less than three hours.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we're talking a very long call.
[SPEAKER_02]: So apologies in advance to everyone who signed up.
[SPEAKER_02]: Truly, I apologize.
[SPEAKER_02]: I apologize.
[SPEAKER_02]: So many of you say don't apologize, I love it.
[SPEAKER_02]: But for those of you who don't like me rambling for hours and hours, probably just don't sign up, you know?
[SPEAKER_03]: one time, somebody, I think what the context was.
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe it was when you and I used to be courses together and they were like, does CC have like a firm end time or does CC just like go, so CC's done teaching and talking.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, CC just goes until it's done teaching and talking.
[SPEAKER_03]: CC does not have a firm end time.
[SPEAKER_02]: I need firm end times.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I can do it as you know because we do like Bianca has a firm end time for it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Shooting this, not sure the shit, sorry, books with hook.
[SPEAKER_02]: When I teach, shit conferences and stuff here, I will respect that, but I just can't get into the same level of depth.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, this is why I love doing it myself, my own thing as an entrepreneur.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I want the total freedom.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's kind of like a fantasy for me that I get to talk for as long as I want.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, it's going to tell me to shut up.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's amazing.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm gone to the point where I'm tired of my own talking.
[SPEAKER_03]: I never listen to the show back.
[SPEAKER_03]: I never watch the YouTube.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I could go a long time without hearing myself talk for a while.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I do like chatting with you, which is why we do our issues in the shit.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we got some?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't want to talk to anything.
[SPEAKER_02]: No.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just the actual live talking.
[SPEAKER_03]: I like it.
[SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, you were going to ask me a question.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm so sorry.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, so you asked me like a stats question.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I made my stats question.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay so I started doing some research for a good question and I found one stat where I was like I don't know if I believe this stat it said it was a Pew research study and I'm wondering okay anyway so I'm gonna ask you the real one where I was like okay I found a tool Can I guess is it how many men think they could land a plane on an emergency?
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I love that step.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's so funny.
[SPEAKER_02]: I knew I knew it would be book one.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just wanted to plug in the ridiculous high percentage of men who think they can land a planet.
[SPEAKER_02]: You guys are delicious.
[SPEAKER_03]: We travel too much to think about those things.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you very much.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so my stats are all my two stats are around audiobooks.
[SPEAKER_03]: So the one where I was like, okay, I can actually find.
[SPEAKER_03]: As you can tell, I'm very particular about making sure it is a factual stat, not just some AI generated made up, BS.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so what do you think the stat is for people who go back and listen to an audio book that they've already read the print book of?
[SPEAKER_03]: What percentage do you think?
[SPEAKER_03]: In this situation, people read the print book and then they listen to the audio.
[SPEAKER_02]: They go by the audio later.
[SPEAKER_02]: So is it by the audio or listen to the audio?
[SPEAKER_02]: Listen.
[SPEAKER_03]: It wasn't okay, the stat that I, but it's a Canadian stat.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm assuming it is by not listen.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, okay, I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say, okay, hold on, so I'm reading a print book, I'm tired.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm obviously tired, because everyone's tired.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I go, oh, I really like this print book, but I don't, I don't want to do it in print.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm gonna go get the audio, but that's what I think is behind this.
[SPEAKER_02]: because the other way around, I get it, you want the book for your bookshelf.
[SPEAKER_03]: But if it's print first, that's the other, that's the other, that's the other stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm being assumed a lot of people are tired and a lot of people do this.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm gonna say 60%.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so booknet Canada, so booknet is basically Canada's version of bookscam.
[SPEAKER_03]: So BookNet said 17% of people go back and listen to the audio book because they read the print book.
[SPEAKER_03]: But I think that's because purchase.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like I think seven people are tired.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think 17% of people must go back and buy the book because I think a lot of people may be get it from the library in the universe.
[SPEAKER_03]: I would just ask, buy or listen, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because if you have spending money then it's lower.
[SPEAKER_02]: But if it's just like if it's in a library situation, then then I would be higher.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, now I have a start for the reverse, which this is the start where I'm like, it said it was a Pew Research study, but I couldn't actually find the Pew Research study because we were recording and I had to come online.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, what percentage of audio book buyers end up buying the physical book after they listen to it?
[SPEAKER_02]: That I don't think is very high because it's about buying something for your bookshelf.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I do think that we'll do that, but again, it's spending money.
[SPEAKER_02]: The first question wasn't about spending, I mean, and think it was about spending money.
[SPEAKER_02]: 20%.
[SPEAKER_02]: 64.
[SPEAKER_03]: So basically, I got them both wrong andverted.
[SPEAKER_03]: Completely adverted.
[SPEAKER_03]: So anyway, the second one's apparently from Pew, but I haven't been able to source that study.
[SPEAKER_03]: But anyway, let me know if you guys have any comments on YouTube.
[SPEAKER_03]: What do you think?
[SPEAKER_03]: Have you either, which of you done?
[SPEAKER_03]: Have you bought the audio, and then got the print book, or are you somebody who buys the print, and then goes buys the audio, or are you just somebody who sticks to your format?
[SPEAKER_03]: I love to ask.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I don't believe this stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: I do believe it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like if our listeners say they do it, I believe it because we're talking to readers, you know?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Fair fair fair fair.
[SPEAKER_02]: Here's the thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: We have multiple, we've talked about this on the show.
[SPEAKER_02]: We've seen a very clear line of readership stays the same.
[SPEAKER_02]: Me, people who buy books stay the same, but then more books come out into the market.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you're telling me that some of these sales are double dipping, meaning one person buying the same two books twice, then that means readership is going down.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't live in a world where I believe that because I will be depressed.
[SPEAKER_03]: Therefore, I don't believe that, which is why I think these deaths are.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't want to be depressed.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I'm vetoing believing that.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're not allowed to believe that.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, let's flip back.
[SPEAKER_03]: So speaking of YouTube, we had a question on YouTube.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well first there was a comment that I love their YouTube that I wanted to finish out with.
[SPEAKER_02]: Before we do that, there's another thing I want to ask.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh no, sorry.
[SPEAKER_03]: See, this is the problem.
[SPEAKER_03]: If we're keeping this recording, the problem is Carly thinks that she's in the driver's seat of this and then CC reminds me that this is a team effort.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, you can be the driver.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love it when you're the driver.
[SPEAKER_02]: But there's a agenda.
[SPEAKER_02]: I put it there.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a fun question I want to ask.
[SPEAKER_02]: So context, I was, I'm a part of the membership committee of the AALA, which is the Association of the American Literary Agents.
[SPEAKER_02]: Loving a part of the membership committee, so much fun.
[SPEAKER_02]: If any agents are listening to the show, you should join the AALA.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you haven't yet, there's so many fun resources.
[SPEAKER_02]: I literally am saying this because I believe it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I get no incentive to say this.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like volunteer.
[SPEAKER_02]: Nobody gets paid.
[SPEAKER_02]: Anyway,
[SPEAKER_02]: Point is, I was at the membership meeting and there's this really cool icebreaker that Anagent shared which I loved and it is what are your most used emojis?
[SPEAKER_02]: So what are your top three most used emojis?
[SPEAKER_02]: So Carly and I will share mine too.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like okay
[SPEAKER_02]: For text messages, not for posting on Instagram, for text messages, private texts with friends and family.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: And by text message, I mean, like anything from Instagram DMs too.
[SPEAKER_03]: I can see because they're like the ones that are in the block that I always go to, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm grabbing my phone.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I don't know if your phone shows recent or if it shows most used, because they are different things.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Recent or most.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: So like, but you can also just use your own common sense.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, what do you think are you three most used emojis?
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so I feel like this is a sneaky question to out myself as an older millennial.
[SPEAKER_03]: First of all, so the smiley cry is what I usually what I usually use on Instagram for comments when I I can't always, you know, write everybody a huge level at her back at the comments.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I usually always try to acknowledge somebody's comment with I do the clapping hands clap clap clap and then we'll do the thumbs up hand.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that's what I use that's my go to for Instagram.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, but I'm asking people you know.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I'm asking you what, like, let's text it out, okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, like texts, this is why I said texts, because I don't want it to be like, what would do public facing?
[SPEAKER_02]: I want you to be like your private life.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like texts to me, texts to Mike, texts, you know, texts to the people in your life.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, what would I use for my emoji?
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to like my friend chats here.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's see, maybe I'm not a big emoji user.
[SPEAKER_03]: I have to like scroll through here.
[SPEAKER_03]: Actually, you're not a big emoji user, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Did you look at our chats?
[SPEAKER_03]: I have some prayer here.
[SPEAKER_03]: I have photos.
[SPEAKER_03]: I do the, I think I might be in a bit of an anomaly.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if I'm a huge, I don't know if I'm a huge, you know what I try to do is when I travel, I'll be like palm tree or if I'm a Neo, you know, big apple.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I don't know, I think I'm kind of like relatively balanced.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know, maybe I'm not a good person to ask this question.
[SPEAKER_03]: Do what are yours?
[SPEAKER_03]: Interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so mine are the upside down smiley face.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a good one.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a fun part face.
[SPEAKER_02]: Miley face.
[SPEAKER_02]: So clearly I'm very sarcastic in my, in my personal time.
[SPEAKER_02]: but also also the champagne.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm always being like celebrating, you know?
[SPEAKER_02]: So I do have a chat with my closest friends where we just celebrate wins.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like it's a specific celebrate wins, Chad.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then, if I could sneak in a fourth, I'll also prayer him.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because again, we're also like manifesting things.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, so this is personal life emoji.
[SPEAKER_02]: If I were to look at the emojis I use on Instagram, yeah, more, then it's the same thing you said.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I'm sometimes trying to validate people who DM me, but I don't have time to write.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'll share like a heart or you know a smiley face with hearts, like I'll,
[SPEAKER_02]: Like this is just me saying, hey, I got your message, thank you for your message, but I don't have to respond to like 100 messages, but yeah, I just feel like it's very revealing what people's most used in movies are.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know what it says about me that I don't, I don't really use them as much, maybe.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I can tell you what it says about you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you want me to tell you?
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, second guess yourself.
[SPEAKER_02]: People use emojis when they're worried their tongue isn't after the words.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so they, yeah, they go like, hey, I don't mean it's in a harsh way.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'll put a little smiley face.
[SPEAKER_02]: You are someone who I don't think you've ever second guess yourself a day in your life.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you have, please write a memoir about it because we don't be curious.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you're like, I don't need to add the emoji.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm Carly.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's probably true.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm like, okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, take it really.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, that was a fun one.
[SPEAKER_03]: In the YouTube comments, let us know what you got.
[SPEAKER_03]: What are your three emojis that you guys use?
[SPEAKER_03]: Pop them in the YouTube channel chat.
[SPEAKER_03]: Getting a little bit more chatty in our YouTube chat.
[SPEAKER_03]: I checked them out just so I can see what you guys were chatting about.
[SPEAKER_03]: So thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to start checking them out and responding to because I like that idea.
[SPEAKER_02]: I like the idea of having like the YouTube as a space.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah fun.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's, you know, it's nice.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thanks guys for hanging out there.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: So go back to YouTube.
[SPEAKER_03]: We, somebody had a question follow up.
[SPEAKER_03]: But first I just wanted to show to someone who said, it's at dead ringer prods said, also just throwing this out into the ring, the new rant segment, Carly is talking to you about, it should be called, you don't know shit, which is a shit.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: You, you dead ringer person, don't know your handle already forgot.
[SPEAKER_02]: You genius, you love it.
[SPEAKER_03]: You don't know shit.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that should be our little rant.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so we need to practice our rant.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, same person had another follow-up question about something.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we often talk on the pod about agents and how there's fires to put out.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now that I've read this question, I'm like, obviously, that's a very vague thing for us to say, fire is being put out.
[SPEAKER_03]: What does that even mean?
[SPEAKER_03]: So this person said, what things do you have to frequently prevent by being CCed into an email chain?
[SPEAKER_03]: You make it seem like their frequent fires being put out behind the scenes that authors don't know about.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm really just curious.
[SPEAKER_03]: So CC, do you want to talk about some examples of fires we call them fires, but do you want to give them some examples?
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, absolutely, I do appreciate the question because I got it.
[SPEAKER_02]: That being said, if you were to ask authors as well, not just agents, I'm sure they would also give you a list because authors do know about these fire.
[SPEAKER_02]: Not someone who hasn't had a deal yet, but like their authors in the know, 100% they know it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Again, I have to be careful because I don't want to get specific with the fire.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm going to talk about the neighborhood that the fire is in because I don't want to reveal identifying details about client stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: But here's one example, cover issues.
[SPEAKER_02]: There are a lot of issues of the covers.
[SPEAKER_02]: So if you're working on a non-fiction project for example, and the covers being shared are covers that again, cannot get specific, but it's happened multiple times.
[SPEAKER_02]: This covers just quite a lot of things.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I'm sorry, the person who proposed these covers missed the point with the book.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so by being CCed, I could make sure my client was like, hey, how do you feel about it first thing?
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not going to tell you that I don't think the cover is good before you tell me what you think.
[SPEAKER_02]: I always want to hear my clients opinions first, but I can like check out with my client, strategize about how to approach it in a way that is professional.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yet at the same time, value in the relationship, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like it is very important in this business to strike a tone.
[SPEAKER_02]: That is incredibly firm because you do have to be firm, but also, hey, sometimes the editor, like the editor, who is a person who's getting all that fire, like they really, really well, and they actually need multiple editors have said this, they need the agent and the author to be like, no, so that they can take that email and do something about it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we know editors are on our side.
[SPEAKER_02]: So anyway, that's one example covers.
[SPEAKER_03]: Covers is a big one.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's it's so emotional.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a marketing tool and yet there's so many feelings around it.
[SPEAKER_03]: So covers is a top list for mine as well.
[SPEAKER_03]: The next one I have is just timelines.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, there's so many things where authors don't know necessarily what a schedule looks like and what it means to be on time or behind like obviously they're given production schedules.
[SPEAKER_03]: But things move and I'll notice like if I haven't got
[SPEAKER_03]: got a notification for a marketing publicity meeting within a certain range of pub.
[SPEAKER_03]: Then the author might be wondering, why have we had our meeting yet?
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'll be like, oh, somebody dropped the ball here.
[SPEAKER_03]: Somebody hasn't scheduled this meeting.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'll step in and be like, you know, why would we schedule this meeting?
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's anything related to timelines where in my experience I know when things should be happening and if they're not, I can just slip in and just keep the machine kind of chugging along.
[SPEAKER_03]: Just timelines and general schedules of general spending.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and also like that is a great one, but it's still in timeline.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've had a situation where editor emails client hears this specific pass.
[SPEAKER_02]: Can you please send your notes back by Monday?
[SPEAKER_02]: This was a Friday.
[SPEAKER_02]: And no, like first of all, that was not on the schedule.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was not like the author was expecting that on the Friday.
[SPEAKER_02]: But also like, no, well, you were asking this person to do requires one in two days.
[SPEAKER_02]: So because I was CCED.
[SPEAKER_02]: Again, I always check in with my client for some of my clients like I can do it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Fine.
[SPEAKER_02]: But that is something that's really important to like sometimes.
[SPEAKER_02]: publishers have really unreasonable expectations of authors because I know it comes from a good place many times.
[SPEAKER_02]: They are stretched thin.
[SPEAKER_02]: There was tardiness in their own schedule.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so they're like, hey, so we're not late overall.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just asked the author to just be faster when it comes to the specific leg of the project.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's the whole hurry up and wait line that we're always using in publishing.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I get to again, go to the editor and say,
[SPEAKER_02]: So what is your final final deadline because as you know, you know my author wants to be thorough and you know the scope of what you're asking her to do is quite, you know, significant She has a life she like she's busy with kids at home That's speaking Zero business days too, like you're on a friday 100% That is zero business days Yeah, it's essentially like Genie, Genie, Genie magic Yeah, that's that's something that happens Okay, next one on my list is
[SPEAKER_03]: whenever something is going to give away leverage.
[SPEAKER_03]: So one of the main tools that agents have is leverage and it can be used in multiple different ways.
[SPEAKER_03]: For example, if we want to submit option material at a really specific time then I want to make sure that like we have our pitch package ready to go and I still pitch option material completely solid like I don't just passively submit option material.
[SPEAKER_03]: So for example, if a client is just like casually chatting with an editor about their next idea, that's fine.
[SPEAKER_03]: But if they then go all to the next steps with something like that, as the agent, I'm like, what the breaks on that?
[SPEAKER_03]: Let me step in, let me formally go through the option material.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it just these little things where maybe the editor didn't ask that in a way that was trying to be nefarious or try to reduce the leverage that we had.
[SPEAKER_03]: But anytime something gets in the way of me having leverage on behalf of my author,
[SPEAKER_03]: That's something where it's not a fire, but I'm always trying to be ahead of those things.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's also another situation I'm thinking of.
[SPEAKER_02]: This one major crisis was averted.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is a contract where, and this is not typical, the publisher had to pay for specific thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not going to say what the thing was.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the author didn't realize that by the time the thing came to be like she either forgot when she read the contract or maybe read the contract.
[SPEAKER_02]: I do not know, right, but she forgot.
[SPEAKER_02]: So she emails the editor.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hey, I've hired this thing or I'm going to hire this thing and, you know, these are my plans and the question wasn't about money.
[SPEAKER_02]: The question was about something else, and I was not CC'd love my client, but forgot forgot to CC me and then the publisher just responds like, hey, this is great.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is our feedback, but not saying, hey, we have to pay for this again, maybe they may be good faith, maybe they just didn't realize their contract said that because it was an exception.
[SPEAKER_02]: This was a difficult thing to include in a contract and
[SPEAKER_02]: by thank you universe like thank you universe my author texted me with a silly question about this thing and I'm like but you know they have to pay for that right once once you are ready to talk about it just be sure and she's like oh I already talked about it I said an email I'm like where is said email
[SPEAKER_02]: Where is said email author?
[SPEAKER_02]: And what I was like, I didn't want to bug you.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, there is nothing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Please understand this.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have never in my life thought to myself, Oh, this person is seeing me too much of emails.
[SPEAKER_02]: Never.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're my client.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you, and of course, if you're comfortable, it is your decision.
[SPEAKER_02]: See, see me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Do it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: So in this case, like, she was in a lose money.
[SPEAKER_02]: Essentially.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, she's going to be an investment that she didn't have to make.
[SPEAKER_02]: Cause then trashfully speaking, she didn't have to.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, no, that's a great example, common example, a common, but like a great example of we keep the wheels on the bus.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's a job, you know, that's a, that's a, that's a great example.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, I think we, we've covered enough examples there.
[SPEAKER_03]: Those were all great examples.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now it's a great little question.
[SPEAKER_03]: So thank you for that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Next, I wanted to talk about, okay, so we have a talk about Bookletread lately.
[SPEAKER_03]: I want to have you read, there's a memoir that came out called Strangers.
[SPEAKER_03]: Have you read Strangers?
[SPEAKER_02]: I have not read the simple, I'm going to share thoughts on why I did not keep reading.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there is a yet situation.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, but I'm really excited to hear what you think.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: I loved it.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was one of those things.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I got the sample as well.
[SPEAKER_03]: I do this all the time.
[SPEAKER_03]: I get tons of like just kind of samples.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm always just trying to defend as many things as I'm whatever hooks you you buy.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll keep going.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so I. Yeah, I'm totally taken with it.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a classic rich person divorce memoir classic like if you want to sum it up.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's what it is.
[SPEAKER_03]: But it really did.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think they really did hook me.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think the writing was great We wanted to see what happened with her.
[SPEAKER_03]: There was I think an attempt to really elevate it because there were I don't know if you're you're at this part But there's kind of interstitials throughout that talk about the the cost-free nest So there's like a bird's nest that was on her property and it's how it's kind of symbolism for what's going on in her life And so I like the kind of
[SPEAKER_03]: scientific interstitials with the offspring and the migration and everything like that.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that kind of scientific elevating, like kind of mirroring, symbolism.
[SPEAKER_03]: I like that.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was, yeah, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think I think it's struck a really good balance because there are so many like quote unquote like rich people behaving badly, stories out there, whether it's fiction or non-fiction.
[SPEAKER_03]: This one is nonfiction, but it's also told in this way that it's also just very humble and very real.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's also told through COVID, which we talked about before, how writing a book about COVID can be really challenging.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it kind of just broke a lot of the rules.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think that's one of the, that's the thing that the best memoirs do is that they break every rule.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then they break out.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then we're going to get all these comps to strangers about like five memoirs like strangers.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we're going to be like,
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know, like, rules is the right thing to say, what rules are to break?
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it's just on paper, if you saw that pitch, a divorce memoir set during COVID, is it something that would be like, but she is a really standing.
[SPEAKER_02]: But she is a very, I don't know if you think, but she is a personality.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: So there's your famous parents.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, the leading is just a story to family and connections and so that does change things, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm not saying the book was sold into that, but like if you mentioned like getting a pitch from from someone who's an unknown person versus someone who's like yes, yes, exactly, I guess I'm trying to say like not maybe not what rules were broken, but what elevates that amongst all of the other things I guess right.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it was the fairly lineage.
[SPEAKER_03]: you know, having a storied family history that goes back many generations, generational wealth, you know, that's something that is very polarizing, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Because it's it's very, it helps institute them in this story quite a bit, but you still are very sympathetic to her.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think also I don't want to ruin the whole story for you or anybody that hasn't read it yet, but I post your Instagram story or my Instagram grid today about two books that I'd read.
[SPEAKER_03]: So one was
[SPEAKER_03]: And it was just funny how these two, like how these two don't tail really well, because essentially this woman in strangers is going to lose all of her generational wealth because of the stovier and it just kind of gets into how women don't necessarily always set themselves up for financial success throughout their lives.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I really like that theme, the financial theme.
[SPEAKER_03]: And if anybody follows the financial diet, they are a YouTube channel and
[SPEAKER_03]: Instagram channel and I think Chelsea the owner of financial diet is doing a deep dive on strangers on our YouTube channel and I think it's gonna launch today and so I really want to check that out to see what she thinks about that like financial feminism piece because I think that piece was really interesting to me in the story about how that was all gonna go down
[SPEAKER_02]: interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so I checked out the sample the week it came out.
[SPEAKER_02]: I read it with my eyes, the sample.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's reason why things.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't know if this is what's going to happen and I don't want you to tell me, but I got the sense that a huge part of her arc was going to be awakening to her her being passive in her life because so much of the sample that I read is her saying I deferred to my husband.
[SPEAKER_02]: And her feelings were quite passive, like her interiority was passive, not just her actions, because it's different, you know, actions and interiority.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I immediately, when I read books like this, like I know myself, so much of reading a book is what you are bringing to it.
[SPEAKER_02]: You as a reader, especially when you are 100%.
[SPEAKER_02]: What moment you are in your life?
[SPEAKER_02]: What mental modules you have about the subject of the memoir?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like for example, I do not have divorce parents, but if I did, I would probably approach that differently.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_02]: Every time you read a book, the themes, this topic, the subject, the arc, with that, that reflects on you and how you feel about the book, has so much to do with who you are as a person.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm saying all this to say.
[SPEAKER_02]: The whole passive interior already think, I know myself, like I know myself.
[SPEAKER_02]: If I read that with my eyes, I would not connect with that protagonist in the same way.
[SPEAKER_02]: As if I read it with my ears, because this is a very specific reason, because she is reading the audiobook.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I looked it up immediately.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was like, yeah, who?
[SPEAKER_02]: Who was never reading the same?
[SPEAKER_02]: If it's her, because her voice is going to do the work.
[SPEAKER_02]: to film programs.
[SPEAKER_02]: What her interior yard is not interpreting.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so this is just a situation where I'm not saying audiobooks or books are better or worse.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would never say that that's such a simplistic, like, small-minded thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're not such things better, but for you, for me, this book is going to be digested with my ears and not with my eyes.
[SPEAKER_02]: because that is the kind of reader that I am about this kind of story and I know myself and so I'm very excited to listen to it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have not read it with my ears yet because I am doing another book and audio and I'm not finished yet but then it's right next up on my TVR.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'll let you know.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, let's try to vote it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And obviously, I got a couple messages on Instagram about it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And obviously, YouTube comments.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let us know if you guys have read it.
[SPEAKER_03]: What you liked about it.
[SPEAKER_03]: I just think it's going to be one of those things that we're going to see a million cops about it because of the nature of the story and the woman in bedlife and her experiences.
[SPEAKER_03]: And another thing I want to plug is I'm talking to a film agent about this actually because she called me on Monday and we were both like, why don't you read on the week and we're both like straight in terms and she was talking about another really interesting theme which is the bad mother hood theme because the book also talks about her having to raise the kids essentially, you know, after the divorce and how she felt I was stood as a bad mom like, you know, is
[SPEAKER_03]: is putting your kids through divorce, making you a bad mom, which is a theme through many of my books, including my client, E.J.
[SPEAKER_03]: Dickson's book, one bad mother.
[SPEAKER_03]: So anyway, I thought there's just a lot of really good themes in that book, and anyway, we can keep talking about it, but once you finish it, we can talk about it some more.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[SPEAKER_03]: And with that, we are going to throw to our sponsors.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, everybody.
[SPEAKER_03]: Welcome back.
[SPEAKER_03]: We got a really fun DM from a journalist who follows both CC and I so shared it to them.
[SPEAKER_03]: They didn't ask not to be named, but I guess, you know, we can keep them anonymous and we will read the question.
[SPEAKER_03]: So the journalist said,
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm obviously biased but I'm curious, what do agents think regarding traditional media coverage these days?
[SPEAKER_03]: Does it still matter?
[SPEAKER_03]: Does it quote move the needle and quote for their authors?
[SPEAKER_03]: Do agents encourage their authors to seek traditional media coverage slash publicity?
[SPEAKER_03]: Why slash why not?
[SPEAKER_03]: As a traditional media landscape shrinks does that coverage become more or less important?
[SPEAKER_03]: Which I think was a great question and I know there's a lot of pub professionals that follow us so I would also love to know what you guys think.
[SPEAKER_03]: So send us a DM or comment on the YouTube channel because I would like to know what everybody thinks on this topic.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know a public says Kathleen Schmidt often writes in her sub-stack about this topic and so I honestly have a lot of feelings about this topic and my comments on this change probably every couple of years because the landscape
[SPEAKER_03]: Do you want to start with your overarching thoughts on this one?
[SPEAKER_02]: So what are you on?
[SPEAKER_02]: I do.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a great question.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I definitely appreciate this person asking.
[SPEAKER_02]: As a general rule, as an aside, we'll adopt the following policy.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you don't say you don't want to be named, we'll assume you don't want to be named.
[SPEAKER_02]: So if anyone is sending us a DM, this is not count for comments that are public because then your name's there.
[SPEAKER_02]: But if you send us a DM, and you're
[SPEAKER_02]: you want your name to be read.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let us know explicitly please because we want to respect privacy right but we also want to give credit so anyway just just a general thing that we can decide on.
[SPEAKER_02]: So okay my thoughts on this.
[SPEAKER_02]: We operate as literary agents as publishing professionals and a deeply human business.
[SPEAKER_02]: Our business is deeply deeply, deeply personal.
[SPEAKER_02]: It is about personal relationships.
[SPEAKER_02]: The what we bring to the table as publishing professionals has to do with that human element and I and I bring this up in connection with the question of does traditional media move the needle does traditional media still have a space when it comes to promoting and selling books I bring that up because once upon a time the role of traditional media the primary role is.
[SPEAKER_02]: making sure that your book reached as many eyeballs as possible.
[SPEAKER_02]: In the same way that traditional TV shows, like for example, once upon a time, if you wanted to know the news in the evening, yeah, in the morning you read your paper, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: But in the evening, you had to tune into one of X shows.
[SPEAKER_02]: X was the number and the number was low, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Once upon a time, if you wanted to know what was happening in the world, like you had to turn on that like one of three, one of four TV shows.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now that's all the cakes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now we're always plugged in.
[SPEAKER_02]: We don't all learn about the news at 7pm at night or whatever time it used to be.
[SPEAKER_02]: In the same way that this used to be the case with journalism, when it comes to just current events and politics, it was also true about books.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, if you want to know what books were hot, you needed to go to certain media coverage, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And it used to be that one placement in the New York Times, a review in the New York Times, or one best of in a certain magazine, talking about the big ones, especially.
[SPEAKER_02]: That used to make such a big difference when it comes to reaching large numbers of people.
[SPEAKER_02]: However, that's changed.
[SPEAKER_02]: We no longer live in that world.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that, that primary purpose no longer exists because it is very, very obvious that traditional media coverage doesn't bring in the same number of eyeballs and therefore does not translate to the same number of sales.
[SPEAKER_02]: But as I mentioned in the beginning of my rant, we are a deeply human.
[SPEAKER_02]: deeply deeply human business of the Taliban relationships.
[SPEAKER_02]: And one of the things traditional media does, which I think is very special, very special and thankful to traditional media for, is that there is a psychological element to, I was featured on that magazine, I was featured on that paper, I was, I went on that TV show.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that level of validation for an author can be very important.
[SPEAKER_02]: And people shouldn't discount psychological advantages and psychological benefits because we're human beings, we're not AI.
[SPEAKER_02]: AI doesn't care about the psychological benefit.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, AI is fine, but we humans care.
[SPEAKER_02]: There is something to be said about the credibility.
[SPEAKER_02]: Fair or not, the perceived credibility, the perceived legitimacy that being on these traditional media platforms brings to an author and I think that's really valuable because I work with authors and I know that, you know, there are author hearts, they care about the sort of thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: even our podcast.
[SPEAKER_02]: I remember we were once featured on, I think it was cosmopolitan's best podcast of the year.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's a couple years ago.
[SPEAKER_02]: We didn't get more viewers because of that.
[SPEAKER_02]: We really didn't.
[SPEAKER_02]: There was no moving the need needle.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I loved it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm so proud of it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mentioned all the time.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm excited about it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And of course it's different from writing a book because a book is a much more impressive and deep endeavor for sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not equating the two of
[SPEAKER_02]: But it matters, like how we feel matters or emotions matter.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we have to stop pretending like it doesn't, because to pretend like it doesn't is to not equate us with AI, which I don't want to.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I think there's a definitely a space for that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just think that what people need to recalibrate in their minds and this happens all the time is I was once at a lunch and it was two agents and two acquiring editors.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was one of these.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we're talking about a book.
[SPEAKER_02]: And
[SPEAKER_02]: one of the husbands of one of the acquiring editors shows up, sits down, joins our conversation, and we're talking about leaked sales.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this person's reader, this husband is reader, and we're talking about a book that didn't do well.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the husband was like, we, but that book was everywhere.
[SPEAKER_02]: Wait, but that book was everywhere.
[SPEAKER_02]: We hear this all the time.
[SPEAKER_02]: That book was everywhere.
[SPEAKER_02]: What do you mean it only sold 600 copies?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, that book was everywhere.
[SPEAKER_02]: It does lead to confusion.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's the negative side of, wait, if my book was everywhere, and it didn't sell, is it personal?
[SPEAKER_02]: Is it my book?
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think it is.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because again, the eyeballs and the conversion rate just isn't the same.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think it's a great question, as you can see by all.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so I have a lot of thoughts about this, as I've said, and I was kind of jotting down as you were speaking, which were all great points.
[SPEAKER_03]: The first thing I always ask my clients about this is, what is your goal?
[SPEAKER_03]: And they will often sheepishly say, my goal is to be a bestseller, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, that's my goal, is I want to sell my companies, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And then we think, okay, let's break this down.
[SPEAKER_03]: Do we think?
[SPEAKER_03]: So if you buy you wanting to increase the amount of marketing, publicity, and traditional media,
[SPEAKER_03]: Do you think that that is actually going to make you best seller?
[SPEAKER_03]: Then we have to break down why that is probably not true because traditional media does not convert into actual sales.
[SPEAKER_03]: There are two things that traditional media does.
[SPEAKER_03]: Legitimacy and brand building.
[SPEAKER_03]: And as you said, the Legitimacy piece is very important.
[SPEAKER_03]: The brand building piece is very important, especially in the age of AI and how much we in a general as a culture distrust the media.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's very, very important that select outlets remain important to us because we want to be able to say, hey, my author was featured in XYZ, private prominent newspaper or magazine or blog or channel because that helps legitimize and rise above in the age of as kind of losing trust, institutional media and all the AI slot out there.
[SPEAKER_03]: So there is a very specific solid purpose for all of this.
[SPEAKER_03]: The brand building piece is the piece that has been building for the last 15 years.
[SPEAKER_03]: And this is so important because it's not that maybe the sales didn't convert because of certain coverage for this book, but
[SPEAKER_03]: your next book is gonna come around and your next book is gonna come around and all of this goodwill and this branding that you have built year on year on year eventually if you have it broken out yet you will break out because of that and that is the reason and that is the purpose to continue to strive because you get to say hey you know I was featured in this a featured in that and XYZ and then you start to just layer all of this legitimacy all of this brand building and that's how you kind of accelerate mid career so there is a method to the madness
[SPEAKER_03]: specifically sales conversion.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love that you mentioned that it's a long game.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that's a super important point.
[SPEAKER_02]: May I ask, can you ask your clients what their goals are?
[SPEAKER_02]: And they say to be a best seller?
[SPEAKER_02]: Have you ever asked why?
[SPEAKER_03]: No, unless they offer it because I do think it's a deeply personal thing, I don't try to poke holes at their goals in that regard.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, no, no, not to poke holes, but to get to the root cause because, well, I guess it's the same thing poke holes and like here's here's why I'm asking.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have learned from you as you know and I know that's a question you've asked and so I also asked it of my clients because you taught me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Very few people will admit to this unless they feel safe around you and unless it's a private space, obviously, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And I always say, you don't have to tell me why.
[SPEAKER_02]: But like if you want to, I'm curious to know why.
[SPEAKER_02]: But you should know why.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, you should know why, for sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: But here's the thing, human beings don't know their why.
[SPEAKER_02]: Half a time.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm saying half, that's a lie.
[SPEAKER_02]: 90% of your time.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, we don't know our wants.
[SPEAKER_02]: We don't want exam and examing takes time and brain space and our brain doesn't like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: The Y is often to make money, part of the Y. I'm not discounting that money is very important.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's been established.
[SPEAKER_02]: We love money, but it's also to feel loved to feel valid.
[SPEAKER_02]: To have my work of many, many years, the heart and soul that I put into this rectangular leafy thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: I want validation for that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I want recognition for that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to feel seeing and I want to know that I matter.
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to know that my story matters.
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to know that my character is matter.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not a go-tistical.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not about their ego.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's about the creation and the work and the beautiful, beautiful thing they put out in the world.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that is something that traditional me at coverage can give to people.
[SPEAKER_02]: The validation and the love and the recognition
[SPEAKER_02]: features your book, you know, and so I just think that, you know, I don't think that journalists necessarily realize this, but a lot of the reason why coverage matters is deeply psychological.
[SPEAKER_03]: No, I totally agree.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it's about the validation.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think they're seeking something much deeper than what they actually even realized that they're seeking.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that was a fun conversation.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think we're both on the same page about that.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're obviously sad that all the places are kind of shrinking and there's less places for all of this to happen.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think you guys remember me ranting about when the USA today bestseller list closed down for a while and I had the million rants about that and I'm obviously so glad that it's back.
[SPEAKER_03]: So all of these things matter in their own way, but as the author, this is a great moment to kind of pause the episode and write down your why because those why it's important.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, we still have more to cover today.
[SPEAKER_03]: I saw this deal in publishers market plays that I wanted to just give a shout out to.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, sometimes agents get, and I didn't get pitch this book, but agents get pitch these books sometimes where it's like a literary agent character.
[SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, I just wanted to read this deal that was announced.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we're shall be Weinstein, who has written a book called The End Bar, in which a literary agents carefully compartmentalized life implodes when a glitch sends her brutally honest private draft emails to their intended recipients forcing her to confront the messy feeling she's been hiding and to discover that vulnerability and authenticity might be the key to the life and love she's been to afraid to lose, which was sold to Pippo White at Lake Union Publishing.
[SPEAKER_03]: To be published next year in 2027,
[SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, did you see that one, CC?
[SPEAKER_03]: I always, and 10 has always go up and there's a literary agent character.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know it's such a, like it's such an interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I feel like literally agents, we have such an interesting life.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yes, we would make for great characters that at the same time as agents ourselves, to close to home, like, is it going to be like, one of those good situations where I can, I feel seen or bad.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's part of it.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's part of the editorial feedback based on my life, you know, when you're going to be in a book, how to literally an agent character was a book club.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't, I never know the titles of her books, but I know exactly which one you're talking about.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: It wasn't how to carry book lovers.
[SPEAKER_03]: Book lovers.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm really about the title.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not be a treat.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it's booklovers.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: That one, like, I couldn't not read that and not think about my own career and expectations.
[SPEAKER_03]: So anyway, but yeah, the writing brutally on as private, draft emails and then having notes could you imagine, like, I don't type out any of my life, but I don't sometimes type out my rants and delete them.
[SPEAKER_03]: I would be crazy, so I would share it to Michelle for that interesting premise there.
[SPEAKER_02]: If I mean, they're not drafts, because again, I would not do that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would not give it up in the cloud.
[SPEAKER_02]: But if my private ramp like this, oh, boy, I would be miserable.
[SPEAKER_03]: In a lot of ways, this is our ranting, so I guess it is out there in the universe, so.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have a way, I have way darker rants in private.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I'm so glad that you don't air those out on our shelves.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm sure you're happy with the love to give them.
[SPEAKER_02]: Examiner not.
[SPEAKER_02]: You have them too, it's not just me.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, so the last thing I wanted to talk about today, so I have a subscription to the book seller.
[SPEAKER_03]: CCD have a subscription to the book seller.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't, just kidding.
[SPEAKER_03]: You can do love it.
[SPEAKER_03]: I find it, yeah, I actually, I do read it.
[SPEAKER_03]: They do a really, they do really coverage of London book fair, which is coming up really soon.
[SPEAKER_03]: They'll do the daily's.
[SPEAKER_03]: So in the bookseller, which is the British kind of trade publication, there was an article about AI.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I feel like from this point forward, I mean, I don't know if we've had an episode in the last six months that hasn't talked about AI, but this is going to be an article that talks about AI.
[SPEAKER_03]: So the name of the article came in February 3rd, by Lauren Brown article, literary agents,
[SPEAKER_03]: So I pulled a couple quotes from the article for us to kind of focus on.
[SPEAKER_03]: But basically, the crux of the article is agents feel like, you know, whether they're using software or not, they feel like they can absolutely tell that there is an influx in submission.
[SPEAKER_03]: So in a number of submissions are increasing.
[SPEAKER_03]: Quality is going down, language is flattening.
[SPEAKER_03]: and also another thing that was interesting in the article is that the illustrator agents found that those pitches had changed dramatically because they said the artists are often very visual and not as often kind of technical with the writing and so they've noticed the illustrator pitches to illustrator agencies have changed quite a bit.
[SPEAKER_03]: I thought that was interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, it was a great article.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for sharing.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I'm curious.
[SPEAKER_02]: Have you seen this too?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like have you seen a larger number of queries?
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'll say you say I are not, but I have because I have to have you checked.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, yeah, I have.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have the number has been going up.
[UNKNOWN]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I do think that part of it is AI.
[SPEAKER_02]: One of the most interesting angles about this article is what it said, quote, what we're most concerned about is potentially good writers who don't trust themselves.
[SPEAKER_02]: And they are trusting this concept of AI that they are told repeatedly is so brilliant and transformative.
[SPEAKER_02]: When some of them are missing the opportunity to discover that they themselves might be a great writer, close quotes.
[SPEAKER_02]: To me, this was such a brilliant angle because
[SPEAKER_02]: One of the things you need to make it in this industry, I always say talent for storytelling, talent for writing, and the third thing is the mindset.
[SPEAKER_02]: And one of the things you need in that mindset is self-trust.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, author, there's a reason why there's author in authority.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, open to collaboration.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, flexible.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, someone who can learn.
[SPEAKER_02]: But you need to know your vision.
[SPEAKER_02]: You need to trust your skills.
[SPEAKER_02]: And true confidence comes from competence.
[SPEAKER_02]: And competence comes from practicing.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you have not practiced writing, whether it's a query letter, or a manuscript, you will not get good at it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Therefore, you will not get confident.
[SPEAKER_02]: Therefore, you will be someone who's like, I don't trust myself.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think that's so much that this is about wanting shortcuts.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, I empathize with wanting shortcuts.
[SPEAKER_02]: I do, but it's not realistic.
[SPEAKER_02]: I say this all the time, if you're being efficient, you're doing it wrong.
[SPEAKER_02]: I am sorry, honey.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is not the industry for efficiency.
[SPEAKER_02]: Pick a different industry.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not going to be this one.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so for me, I have senior larger influx.
[SPEAKER_02]: What's sad?
[SPEAKER_02]: Here's what's really sad to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: What's really sad is this happened a couple times already.
[SPEAKER_02]: I sometimes do like ask me anything.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I've had more than one person.
[SPEAKER_02]: This was not a one person situation.
[SPEAKER_02]: ask me, hey, I use a, I just the check that my story plot points are going well.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I create them.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just feed it into the AI and I give me feedback and it just makes me feel like validated.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know that it's working and then when it tells me it's not working, then I feel validated that I got the feedback and I'm like, this is an loneliness epidemic.
[SPEAKER_02]: What is actually happening is you're lonely.
[SPEAKER_02]: You have not found trusted beta-rate or trusted critique partners and most importantly, I'm not trusted your own developed palette.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you're thinking that AI is going to essentially fix that or address that, or you know it's not going to happen.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is the same as someone, not having a romantic relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: And being like, I'm lonely, I want to have, you know, romance in my life, I'm going to use AI to have romance.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think that's a very good idea.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, there's no substitute for your own connection.
[SPEAKER_03]: We haven't had nothing for work content already.
[SPEAKER_02]: But, like, romance, it can be like, like, like, like, like, you know, fairy tales, just stop, stop, stop thinking that I can do what humans can't because it can't, can we go a week, you're up, as can we go a week without talking about I like, That's the only forward I actually don't know if we could,
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if it's possible.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I think this views into a lot of like existential questions about the business and I want to read a few more things from the article just so I can really help this hit home because in some ways that UK is ahead of us and some things and sometimes North America is ahead of the US and some things.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that UK is ahead of us a little bit in terms of agents kind of coming forth with some statements here because I don't think I've seen North American agents coming out with statements like these.
[SPEAKER_03]: So this is from the article.
[SPEAKER_03]: So this is different liberal agents submission policies and how kind of firm the wording is here.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's said, so you already talked about the flattening of the writing.
[SPEAKER_03]: So by using them, you may be missing an opportunity to secure representation by a reputable literature agency.
[SPEAKER_03]: Submissions to greed and heat must be the original work of the author.
[SPEAKER_03]: Submissions originated written or edited using artificial intelligence AI will not be accepted.
[SPEAKER_03]: This includes the use of AI in your cover letter, synapses proposal, as well as the manuscript.
[SPEAKER_03]: RCW's guidelines include the line submissions must be the original work of the author, not generated or co-written using artificial intelligence, but like Friedman says, we do not accept submissions originated written or edited by artificial intelligence, Felicity Brian, associate says we do not accept submissions originated written or edited.
[SPEAKER_03]: by Artificial Intelligence Technology, Graham Monk Christie's guidelines say while we acknowledge that AI used to decisionly can be useful to a for research we do not accept submissions originated written or edited by AI so I'm just like continue to repeat myself but I'm doing that on purpose because I want you guys to understand the stakes here.
[SPEAKER_03]: And not every agency is going to have software that is going to have a tell here, but we are going to be able to tell.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, there's for so many reasons.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think the thing that I worry about the most is writers who kind of the example that CC said where they're going in and they are.
[SPEAKER_03]: Using AI manipulation tools for things and they're not going to know the line of where their writing ends and the AI begins because they're getting lost in the romanticization of this software and that is what I think one of the huge huge disadvantages are here of anybody using it.
[SPEAKER_03]: and that goes back to what C.C.
[SPEAKER_03]: said about, you know, writers need to trust themselves.
[SPEAKER_03]: I want to work with writers out of a very strong point of view on the world.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't want to work with writers who have to pump their stuff into AI to figure out if they can validate whether this is a useful plot point.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I really do think, you know, this is a really important article, and I think it's behind the paywall, but I really wanted to bring this to light for us today.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and you know, to tell anyone listening, we do empathize with the wanting the validation and the wanting at the same time it's possible to empathize with something and be critical of it and you're not putting yourself at an advantage I relying on AI to get that validation.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's fair to want it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Heart of that validation is going to come from within.
[SPEAKER_02]: And part of it is going to come from other trusted human sources, but human being the operative word in that sentence.
[SPEAKER_02]: I, yeah, we'll see.
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll see if one of these days will stop talking about AI.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think so.
[SPEAKER_03]: I would love if I didn't have to talk about it every week.
[SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, it's absolutely going to do something.
[SPEAKER_03]: We'll probably have to talk about it every
[SPEAKER_03]: week.
[SPEAKER_03]: But that's the end of this week's episode.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thanks for hanging out with us.
[SPEAKER_03]: We have lots of fun things to talk about.
[SPEAKER_03]: And as always, we'd love to know your thoughts in the comments on YouTube.
[SPEAKER_03]: So let us know what you think about this episode.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let us know your thoughts.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we will see you guys again next week.
[SPEAKER_01]: CCLera is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you'd like to query CC, please refer to the Submission Guidelines at www.wshoman.com.
[SPEAKER_01]: Carly Waters is a literary agent at PS Literary Agency, but a work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Carly on this podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: are solely that of her as a podcast co-host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS literary agency.