[SPEAKER_00]: Hello everybody, a welcome back to the podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is an emotional one for sure, but it's it's very, very, very, very helpful for people out there who are struggling with this exact thing and if they ever were to get into this thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: In this situation where you have a dog that had bitten somebody and has resource guarding and there's kids involved.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, this is definitely a very intimate conversation, but at the same time it's unbelievably invaluable to people out there who are in the same very position and they have nowhere to go, nowhere to talk to, no one to talk to, they don't know what direction they need to go to.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is a very, very sad but also insightful podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: episode with the dog owner who unfortunately is in the process of figuring out if they should you behavioral you with a nicer dog or try to re-home the dog or maybe even try to keep the dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: But this is the reality and I think it's important for you guys to know the full realities of owning the dog and owning the animal and those responsibilities and
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not always rainbows and butterflies, things do happen, these are dogs, these are animals, and what do we do?
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's gonna be really helpful for those of you out there who ever have to deal with this, especially dog trainers who are listening to this, how do you have that conversation and what's the right thing to do?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Bye.
[SPEAKER_01]: did the snorle thing that she does to my mom's dog, which is the same dog that she had gotten a couple times when he was a puppy, he's about a year, and just as a reminder, my mom and stuff to have to live on our property, like 90 yards from us, and they have two dogs, and she spends a lot of time over there.
[SPEAKER_01]: But so that happened, he was fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then she did it to him again, like a week later,
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe two weeks, but on Christmas it was just I think overcrowding slash people there wasn't food but there were a lot of people and it was like a combined space a week later it was food and then fast forward to last week on my daughter's first birthday literally that night we had just so unhappy birthday I'd given her a cupcake and no other dogs were in the house it was just me my parents and my staff dad um
[SPEAKER_01]: And I could just take my daughter out of the high chair.
[SPEAKER_01]: There were some crumbs from the cupcake and Lizzy was looking at the crumbs and my daughter walked over and was like putting her hands in the high chair and she did it to her.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was quick and my daughter is fine thankfully.
[SPEAKER_01]: She did get like a two scratch right on the outside of her eye.
[SPEAKER_01]: We put her out in Alex the next day, cleaned it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, and thank God that's all that happened, and you can barely even tell no on my daughter.
[SPEAKER_01]: But we are now at a point where I just don't, we don't feel comfortable with her being on the property anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we took her to the vet last Friday, the morning after it happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: They were the ones that treated my brother in law's dog, the Chihuahua, after she hit that hem.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, and so basically where I'm at, and obviously talking to you, I've talked to our vet several times.
[SPEAKER_01]: other trainers, people through friends of friends, I'm just trying to do all the research and do diligence that I can.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I know that a behaviorist is around that we haven't explicitly explored yet through some conversations with our vet.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was like, you know, I don't really know that medication would be the best route for her because it might make her more sensitive but you could explore it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So basically, we're at the point where we're strongly
[SPEAKER_01]: which obviously is incredibly hard, or whether we can get her additional training, model training, perhaps, like a board and train situation that would get her in a position where we could feel comfortable rehoming her somewhere that doesn't have kids and doesn't have other animals.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I realize like the fact that she now has a bite history with a person and a dog that was a fatal bite is gonna make it pretty challenging to rehome her.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm fully aware of that, and are that was very strongly, like, listen, you can try, like you should try and see what you can do there.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's probably going to take a pretty unicorn environment, but that's kind of where we're at.
[SPEAKER_01]: So just, you know, obviously I know you can't tell us what to do, but just as we're evaluating those options and kind of thinking through what could be.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, a next step, um, that that's kind of where I've landed and honestly, candidly, my gut is more even telling me that to be might be the route, just because she, like, if we weren't a put her in a new environment, she is so sensitive and has such anxiety that I know that it might exacerbate it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're not being naive about it at all.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think, um, and just obviously trying to do right by our family, by her,
[SPEAKER_01]: And by another potential home, if that ended up being around.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'll pause.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's kind of the just.
[SPEAKER_00]: OK.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what is, I think it's hard to say.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you don't really have a goal.
[SPEAKER_00]: You just want to know what my opinion is, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Pretty much, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, it basically, I know that you've worked with, and I listened to the B episode on your podcast from a couple years ago.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I know you said like a lot of times those dogs end up with a room people.
[SPEAKER_01]: I I hope that that's not the case for her because we have done a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know we haven't done everything, but basically is there a world in which she could be trained to a safe enough place because 98% of the time she's totally fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's the that's the hard part, but yeah, I'll pause.
[SPEAKER_00]: yeah yeah okay so let's zoom all the way out and yeah just look at the objective situation and the variables and the incidences that are going on so for me it's like you know again zooming all the way out okay we had a spat and a little fight with a small chihuahua and unfortunately the chihuahua didn't live
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, my thoughts are the same about that the last time we talked is, you know, a little tiny fight like that with maybe a normal sized dog with an average dog, it would be probably would have walked away with a couple, you know, maybe not even a vet visit, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's, which has happened to my mom's dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so it's like, okay, you know, these things happen.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not ideal.
[SPEAKER_00]: Then you look at this incident with your daughter.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's definitely a form of resource garden.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, if you've listened to that, and I've made, we're actually making another piece of content about behavior of the
[SPEAKER_00]: For me, the behavior with an Asia is something that we do when we have very unpredictable dangerous behavior.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the protocols for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's when I have a dog that is almost neurotic and unpredictable and dangerous.
[SPEAKER_00]: Or they almost just don't, they don't even know what they're doing and they can't control it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that decision should be made where it's like, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, this dog, it's not even like checked into reality here.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're just a walking liability.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Looking at this situation.
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, if you said, hey, Tom, my dog bit my daughter because of resource guarding.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's say, okay, that's really awful.
[SPEAKER_00]: it to me it's it's not something that I would say, oh, that's crazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow, I can't believe that happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like that doesn't that's not what's going through my head.
[SPEAKER_00]: What's going through my head is
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want you to have to walk on egg shells with your daughter and your dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think that that's fair or reasonable.
[SPEAKER_00]: However, from my perspective, objectively as it can on professional, there's this two-sided thing coin here, where my dog bit my daughter from resource garden.
[SPEAKER_00]: and then the other side is, you know, my daughter got bit because of resource guarding.
[SPEAKER_00]: So for me, again, when you talk about behavior with the nature, it's really something that is going to come down to you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because to me, and to because to me, if you said, hey, Tom, is this dog supposed to should this dog be utilized for this behavior?
[SPEAKER_00]: I would then say, well, it's up to you because if it happens, you would, in order for this to be successful for your daughter and for your dog and for your family, you would have, it's a complete, the, the, in my opinion, the success of the rest of the dog's life is going to be predicated off of your management skills.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and the reason why I say that is because Because of the dog's nature like you said like 98% of the time The dog's fine as long as there's no food and there's no kids involved in that tiny little window of Red zone you're likely never gonna have an issue so
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll give you perspective.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so from my, let me give you perspective on my, like my family.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I have two kids as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: One's three, one's one.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have two dogs.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have a dog that outweighs me and outmustles me seven days of the week.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's very big.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's very strong.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's very powerful.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's bred to be a protective dog against giant cats in South Africa.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, him, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a
[SPEAKER_00]: If I got into a situation, in my dog ever turned around and bit my kids, the first things I would go through, like as a parent and as a train, it's a very conflicting, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So the first thing I would go through as a trainer and as a professional is,
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, and I'm just talking about my master.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would say, okay, I never want that to happen again.
[SPEAKER_00]: What was the context?
[SPEAKER_00]: So, what I'm really actually trying to find, and this sounds maybe even a little harsh or potentially even morbid, but was there a reason?
[SPEAKER_00]: If there were a reason, then I could say, so I would go two routes.
[SPEAKER_00]: We'd either go this dog needs to be
[SPEAKER_00]: Which do the breeder part on your end isn't applicable, but I have a dog, I have small kids, my dog just caused harm to my kids.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's my responsibility to keep my kids safe.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's not only my responsibility, but it's my prerogative, it's what I want, what I want to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I have that option, but the other side, you know, when we go down, like, well, should I just put the dog down, I would, if my kid reached their hand in my dog's bowl or reach their, because the difference between your dog eating her cupcake is nothing to the dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: The dog doesn't give a shit that it was her birthday cupcake at all.
[SPEAKER_00]: Unfortunately, you know, the dog is like, this is food, this is yummy, this is mine.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't care if it was yours first, now it's mine.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the animals are going to be animal in.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, if my kid reached, I mean, to me, my kid should be able to do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would expect that from both my dogs, that's how I've raised them, that's their personalities, that's what I've made the decision to put these animals in front of my children.
[SPEAKER_00]: They don't have a child's do-not have a choice, you know, so it's my responsibility to make sure that that is safe and that I've done all of my due diligence, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Animals or animals, you can't always predict how they're going to come out, but you can do everything
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's, that's, those are the two things I would look at.
[SPEAKER_00]: So okay, I'm definitely, I'm going to get rid of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: If it was a resource-guarding thing, I'm going to re-home the dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like.
[SPEAKER_00]: Not that day, but I'd say, okay, this isn't going to work because I'm not going to spend the next 10 years.
[SPEAKER_00]: My dogs, too.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not going to spend the next 10 years having that pit in my stomach of make sure nobody drops anything on the ground.
[SPEAKER_00]: All crackers, all cookies, all snacks, all fruit, all veggies have to be, you know, I'm not going to, it's not to be honest.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not, it's not realistic.
[SPEAKER_00]: it's not realistic, it's not fair to you, it's not fair to the kids and it's not fair to the dog because the dog is saying, hey, I have this personality trait that I can't control and it's resource garden and that is that could be genetic, that could be that could be learned and it also could just be personality which then ties into genetics.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is a great conversation because there's really it's kind of a patient pull off of.
[SPEAKER_00]: So for me, again, just to give you my because I would be similarly in the same boat
[SPEAKER_00]: Dog were to bite one of my children out of resource guarding the dog would be re-homed.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Done.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, then the next question is, is like, okay, Tom, when would you ever euthanize one of your dogs for a bite?
[SPEAKER_00]: That would be an unwarranted unfair attack on another human.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, so my dog walks past one of my dogs or one of my kids walks past one of my dogs, they turn around and do something.
[SPEAKER_00]: That would be on the table for behavior with an Asia.
[SPEAKER_00]: the first thing I would be looking at of course just to go down this checklist I just did a podcast with an emergency bet that we talked about this but the first thing I go down is making sure the dog is fully healthy dogs will do really out of character things if they are in pain or they you know everything from cancer's brain tumors an an abscess in their mouth or an infected tooth like they're just an agony
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, so they do really uncharacteristic things and those are things I look at before I make that decision and even at that point It's still probably it maybe it wouldn't be behavior with an Asia.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe we found an abscess in the mouth and dog had an infection and the dog was terribly sick and the dog was terribly in pain and the kid touched whatever Then it might be okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe we need to re-home the dog whatever So just to give my honest opinion those are things that I would do again if God forbid knock on wood anything like that happened to my own family
[SPEAKER_00]: If it was at a resource garden and I can nail down an actual reason that to the dogs, to the dogs, fairness would be like air quotes warranted where the dogs like this is my food.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was showing my lip I was growling and the kid didn't back down.
[SPEAKER_00]: then that would be, for me, it would be an immediate rehome.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it wouldn't be emotional.
[SPEAKER_00]: It would be, I need to protect my family.
[SPEAKER_00]: This dog made a really bad decision.
[SPEAKER_00]: Unfortunately, I should never let my guard down or I should have been paying more attention or whatever, like, but it's not 100% the dog's fault.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that could be controversial, depending on who you talk to, but I've worked with so many dogs and I've dealt with a lot of bite cases, working with different hospitals with their doctors and education.
[SPEAKER_00]: that 80% of dog bites happen when parents aren't in the room.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, so that's just to give you my personal experience like that would be my route of if I can nail down a reason that actually the dog can say, well, hey, you know, it's not all on my court right here, then that would be
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, I'll give you another quick example.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have a we had a dog that board it board has been boarding a training sorry has been boarding with us since he was a puppy.
[SPEAKER_00]: He started to develop resource guarding when he was a puppy.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was a genetics thing the dog had nasty resource guarding.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no training that was actually going to take that away fully you can manage it you can control it, but you're not going to take it away.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we had all so we had on the clipboard resource guarding no toys and no bones in the in the actual like computer This dog is boarding with this no no toys no bones.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean you couldn't get more clear one of my staff who had been with us for a very long time actually Just didn't look at any of that and the dog came out and the dog was free in the front room grabbed a big bucket of stuffy toys that we have for some of the puppies
[SPEAKER_00]: and she went over to just to try to take it away and he nailed her.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so again, like, we're not rushing to utilize that dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to the person.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the person immediately was like, shit, I should have known better.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was my fault.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm just giving you a little different context there of we actually blame the human and the human took the blame there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Obviously it's different with kids, but so there's, there's a lot of different sides to this, but that would be my, um, just my personal
[SPEAKER_00]: I told you all your emotions are correct on that, like if I re-home the dog and somebody doesn't take it seriously, it could happen to somebody else.
[SPEAKER_00]: If I re-home the dog, what's the quality of life for this dog and the transitional process?
[SPEAKER_00]: Will the dog ever, like will it be a living hell for the dog to try to get comforted with the new family and a new home and a new this, that and the other thing?
[SPEAKER_00]: Will somebody actually re-home this dog with that bite history?
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's definitely a lot of valid thoughts there too.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you have to really look at the quality of life of the dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's, I mean, youth in Asia is it's Latin for basically quality of life, like what's left.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you have to make that decision on personal preference.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I don't, you know, I don't know the dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's tough to say.
[SPEAKER_00]: But things that you've said to me that I want to point out, 98% of the time were great.
[SPEAKER_00]: sounds like a lot of the situations that happen are human air.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think, and again, I'm not sticking up for the bite to the kid because that's never appropriate.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just saying, I think you, unfortunately, you'll have to put all this weight on your shoulders to say,
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you have enough in you, or in your husband have enough in you to try to manage this for the rest of time?
[SPEAKER_00]: And if it does happen again, how would you feel knowing that you had an opportunity to negate that, you know, or, but it's tough because or.
[SPEAKER_00]: Man, this whole resource guarding thing is to the kids is I didn't ever know that this was going to be a thing so now we're taking extra precaution and maybe it never happens again.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know so there's a lot to weigh and I don't think there's a clear or easy answer, but I think
[SPEAKER_00]: I would be writing down like all of these kind of like when you make a decision as big decisions you write down the pros and the cons and then I think for you and your husband and your family you have to decide what's Realistic for you guys because what's realistic for you and what's realistic for other people are not it's just not applicable.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I could tell you all day long You know, oh here's oh I but I work from home and I'm a professional dog trainer so You know, it's it's a little bit different does that make sense?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it does a few thoughts kind of on us to start all of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, totally agree.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, we, I should have cleared the cupcake.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I should have taken my daughter out to like fully acknowledging that there's a lot of human air in some of it, but what I will also say is like the dog by with the Chihuahua.
[SPEAKER_01]: She pretty much, I think, went after that dog unprovoked.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't think there was as much of a reason there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, we've definitely seen her do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it almost always ties back to resource garden in some way, shape or form.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: But the hard part about it is that there is no warning.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no like, growl that I do the thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: It just goes from zero.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's totally fine to 100.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she's doing this snarl, snarl, yappy bite thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: five seconds later, it's over.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so quick that it's kind of just like a what the fuck just happened, but it's just there's no warning.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that really concerns us because obviously you can't and the other part of it is like, if it was just me, or even me and my husband, like we would, I would be comfortable managing it for the rest of her life.
[SPEAKER_01]: And honestly, we've been doing it like she started all of this when she turned to, um,
[SPEAKER_01]: which correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that generally when they hit like social maturity?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, for the most part, depending on the breed and the size and all that stuff, yeah, I mean, my mask of is so immature, he's probably not gonna hit anything, Dilly's three, but yeah, I mean, typically, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so, around that, right, like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but basically, we live on this property with my mom and my stepdad.
[SPEAKER_01]: There are two other dogs there, house.
[SPEAKER_01]: They have two cats.
[SPEAKER_01]: My mom watches my daughter three days a week
[SPEAKER_01]: They, the dogs can freely roam between both houses.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am not confident that with all of the animals and kids, like, we'll probably have another soon, and like, there's just a lot going on.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am not confident that we could manage it to the point where it wouldn't happen again.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it would be a matter of when and to whom and not if.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, and I don't think she can help it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, it does feel
[SPEAKER_01]: knowing her and right after it happens, it's like she looks at me and she's like, what the fuck did I just do?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I really think that she can't, I don't know that it's a conscious thing that she's choosing to do or if it's just like this one that snaps inside of her.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: But so all of those things, I think a lot about where there's really no warning.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't, so basically, I don't feel confident that we can effectively manage it for the rest of her life in a way that is safe and us doing right by our daughter and our future kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: There you go.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think like no matter what she has to leave our property, like if my mom didn't live with us, basically.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, like I would just give her to my mom, but we're on the same property.
[SPEAKER_01]: She has my daughter three days a week.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like there's just not enough separation there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I also don't want to confuse Liz was the dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, she loves running back and forth and doing what she wants and like rolling in the field with Jack and playing with him like so I don't want to confuse her.
[SPEAKER_01]: from like a health standpoint, we have had her evaluated.
[SPEAKER_01]: We haven't had blood worked on, but she had like a weird, she had a line thing in the fall and had a little bit of a limp, but we've since had her checked for that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I also feel like she's been healthy.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, this has been like the past four years, basically, that it's been happening intermittently, and she has been vetted by several of that as like totally healthy throughout all of that physically.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, the other thing that I will say is like, she, a lot of the things that I never thought she would do, like when it first started when she was still much younger, I was like, oh, that's weird, but like, okay, now I know not to put her in this scenario and that's when we did training in Colorado and they were like, you need to advocate her for her and not put her in challenging situations and, um,
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was something where I felt like I never thought she would draw blood on the dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like she always did the snarl.
[SPEAKER_01]: It sounded scary, but she never was like to damage.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then she did to jack.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he had a couple scratches.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then she did it again to the top to the choreo other.
[SPEAKER_01]: The choreo died.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I never thought she would do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is me being naive.
[SPEAKER_01]: I fully recognize that now.
[SPEAKER_01]: But like all of these things that I never thought she would escalate to the point of she has.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, now that she's bitten, I don't even think she thought that my daughter was my daughter.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think she thought it was my mom's dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: But either way, it happened and she did it and it went on her face.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it does seem to be escalating in severity.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is my point.
[SPEAKER_01]: So now I'm also considering, you know, if she were to go to a home.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like we have a family friend in Unica that's like 70 or something, but like love dogs.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, she's a 70 year old woman and I'm like, what if she bites her?
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't want to put someone in a tough in that position.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I want to own it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I guess that's where, like, I'm basically at the point of if I can find someone that is obviously we would be 100% transparent on everything.
[SPEAKER_01]: If someone is willing to take that on in a way that we feel that that would be a good home for her, then great.
[SPEAKER_01]: And let's do the muzzle training.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's like, I don't know if it makes sense to send her for boarding train somewhere, like your facility, or if that would be even helpful, but like, let's do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But,
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, those are those are the things that come to my mind, but she definitely can't stay here and we know that so it's just really a matter of those two routes right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and yeah, and board in train isn't, you know, and I know that you have touched on this anyway, but, you know, the board in train is, I mean, this is a very instinctual.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we're not going to see any of that stuff at all ever, likely.
[SPEAKER_00]: And even if we did, it's not applicable to your daughter and it's not the same.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I wouldn't waste your time or money on that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would just be making that decision to say, hey, reach out to friends, family, communities, Facebook groups, et cetera, and just say, like, this is the situation.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have a dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, where's I done?
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Good.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's all you can do.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's, like I said, I know it's hard and difficult and stressful.
[SPEAKER_00]: And,
[SPEAKER_00]: it's it's not easy it's it's definitely not easy and um i think that you're you've you've already you're doing all the right things you there's not anything that i'm like oh you you know you need to be doing more of this but but i do think you know my opinion would be in my suggestion would be a lot of creating
[SPEAKER_00]: So, again, like, again, just to give you context and hopefully this is helpful, but again, like my master, he's a lot of dog, he's very powerful, he's big, he's goofy, he's pushy, and, you know, my wife has the two kids a lot of times, and I'm running around working, and so is she, and so a lot of times, to keep him successful and to keep everybody successful, he's in his crate, and then I walk him through times a day, and then I train with him, and I bring him places when we can, and, and,
[SPEAKER_00]: So we have this rotation.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it's better for him and everybody else to be in the crate and take naps than being out and getting into something or eating something or reacting when the birds fly by or whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the other thing is right now I don't think you have to rush in anything and I don't think you are but I think keeping the dog safe by doing a crate and then
[SPEAKER_00]: like my my master if he's too he's not left alone ever ever ever ever because he's too he's too much of a puppy still.
[SPEAKER_00]: He'll.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean the other day he chewed my cult like my wood my big beautiful expensive cold plunge you just started chewing it right it's like
[SPEAKER_00]: okay now because we let him outside and he runs around but then he just gets he gets frustrated and he starts to do really stupid stuff so his space is extremely limited because of his personality and it has nothing to do with training he understands two different languages he's really well trained he's just his personality
[SPEAKER_00]: is like a toddler.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like even less than that.
[SPEAKER_00]: You have to watch him 100% of the time and that's the rule.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're not going to watch him, he is in his crate.
[SPEAKER_00]: No exceptions.
[SPEAKER_00]: So same thing for her, it would be okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's take a deep breath.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's take our time.
[SPEAKER_00]: let's not rush into anything because we don't need to when Lizzy when Lizzy's out she's on a leash she's out for a walk she's doing training sessions she's on her place you know maybe the muzzle maybe not e-collar training and then when you guys are not paying attention or you're eating cupcakes or you're eating dinner or you're you just don't want to worry she's in her crate
[SPEAKER_00]: that would keep you guys a hundred percent successful with zero risks.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's what I would suggest moving forward.
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't flip this coin and try to think like, oh, what is she going to resource guard?
[SPEAKER_00]: But at the end of the day, it's more about stress.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you guys can eliminate most of the stress right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you go, she's in her crate.
[SPEAKER_00]: And when she's not in her crate, she's on a leash, she's getting walks, she's on the treadmill, she's getting trained, and then she's
[SPEAKER_00]: we are taking away all the freedom from her for her sake and for your family's sake.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I totally see that.
[SPEAKER_01]: The problem is she never was quite kind, and that's I've been
[SPEAKER_01]: like that funny, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I just, I got her single and I just let her end up with me and we never quite trained.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she had a lot of separate separation anxiety for me when she was a puppy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, if I was out to eat with a friend and I left her with the friend to go to the bathroom, she would three in the whole time I was gone.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, we could certainly do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: She'll probably lose her shit in a crate.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe she won't, now I'm totally willing to try it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would just feel bad also going from and again, this is like train offs rate of right now she can just run around run around in the yard and maybe that's okay, but if she's in the house she's either locked in the separate room or in that crate like can't be freely walking around kind of thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just think about.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just thinking about her quality of life too if all of a sudden and I think if I'm understanding what you're saying correctly, it's like that could just be an interim solution until we figure out if we can find a re-homing situation that makes sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he's also at my mom's like right now if my daughter's at my mom's Lizzie's with us If like basically wherever my daughter is, she's at the office of the house.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so yeah That's that's pretty much the same concept because I think that you know, the only risk there is you know I heard making a mistake with your mom or whoever else is there so You know again, it's just you you have to Risk over reward here so for me
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I mean, yeah, it sucks that you didn't do great training.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's why we always suggested to start it no matter what for that reason.
[SPEAKER_00]: But tough cookies.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, hey, you make bad decisions.
[SPEAKER_00]: So right now it's either life or death or great.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we're going to put you in the crate and if you scream, you know, but that's something that you have to work out.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, like you have to start crate training or again, like keeping keeping your mom's, you know, and just doing this rotation.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I mean, like I said, I do it with my dog and hopefully when he gets a little bit older and you know that can change, but I mean, I do it every day and I'm a professional dog trainer and my dog's super trained and he's never bitten anybody and I still have to do it because he's just a liability to himself, so I don't know, I'm just giving you context here that it's just part of life sometimes, like you make bad decisions, so
[SPEAKER_00]: And it allows your dog to live a safer life, even though in the beginning they may hate it.
[SPEAKER_00]: We had a dog that just came in for board and trained.
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, never create trained.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the dog has some issues and they go, and well, we need to do board and train because all these other things are wrong, but they've never been created.
[SPEAKER_00]: And like, well, this is going to be very difficult for your dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: The dog bark for two days straight.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then stopped.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it was like two days of buck buck buck buck buck buck buck.
[SPEAKER_00]: and then third day stopped.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're right.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if you did sleep training with your kids, but it's kind of the same.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we did.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like the first three days they cry and then they figure it out.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're like, oh, okay, I can figure out how to put myself to sleep.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and then all your friends go, wait, your kids have bedtimes and they do it or wait.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: You have two hours in the middle of the day because your kids nap.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so worth it.
[SPEAKER_00]: 100%.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what it's like.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the beginning is a little difficult.
[SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, and you've got to kind of like tough-loved out, okay?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's better than you'd try to bite somebody and end in your life, you know?
[SPEAKER_00]: So, I guess I would just say that you give yourself some grace and, you know, take a deep breath and zoom all the way out and go, okay, we don't have to make a decision right now or tomorrow or next week.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to do this rotation and we're going to take it day by day and we'll make a decision once we're ready and we've accumulated all this information and made the right decision.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that that's what you can do because the resource garden, again, it's not it's talk about this all the time, but it's not it's like the one thing I I can dive into, but it's very case by case because there's such a spectrum of resource garden.
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, sometimes it's genetics, sometimes it's something that I'll learn, you know, they grow out once and people back to a type thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: You could work through it, but again, like your daughter can't read those cues.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, you're not there.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's the other thing, too, is just having really good obedience.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like if we're eating dinner, like we have like a like an island bar type thing that we eat at, the kids, there's two kids in the main memoir, me and my wife.
[SPEAKER_00]: And my master, I either put a minute's crate or I put him in a place day and then my shepherd because she's an angel.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't really care what she does.
[SPEAKER_00]: She kind of sits there and just waits for scraps, which I don't mind.
[SPEAKER_00]: But my master would be bumping the kids' faces, he'd be up there trying to, you know, they would be putting their arms down and he'd be licking their arms, they'd be laughing, and then they would start feeding him and all that stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: So he's opinion the ass.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I just, I, he's not part of that because of his personality.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, so I guess my point is, you know, the better obedience you have with off leash and e-colors and all that stuff can just make things a lot easier.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because the, the,
[SPEAKER_00]: You could go from create trained to e-collar trained.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if you've gotten into any advanced stuff, but being able to, like, let's say cupcake fell.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you see it, you could say Lizzie Place, send her away.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because that's what I do all the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: I see something about to happen, and I'll pull levers with obedience.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's called suppression by definition.
[SPEAKER_00]: Example I drop a mango on the ground because I'm making a smoothie my two-year-old Sorry my one-year-old comes water and over to get it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I see my mast if also running over to get it down
[SPEAKER_00]: Boom right if you don't have that control you just you have to muscle you have to muscle you have to pick up the kid You have to you know knee your dog in my case anyway because he's giant so these are things that like having good obedience is Being able to like speak their language right to communicate with your dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: It just I'm not saying it's gonna stop the things that are happening, but I I couldn't live
[SPEAKER_00]: life without that communication like it just I just couldn't like it just wouldn't happen right so again being able to just down your dog send your dog away or tell your dog to leave it from your mouth is a game changer because you can stop and create and fix and avoid and do a lot of different things you know again
[SPEAKER_00]: dog comes around if we're if I'm holding hands at my one-year-old who just learned how to walk anyway and we're wobbling through the door and I open the door my mastives like oh we're going outside for walk and he comes barely and over like a rhino he's gonna like so I can just down him barely down yeah do
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't want to, but that's what I need.
[SPEAKER_00]: I need that.
[SPEAKER_00]: It'd be different if it was a show how well I wouldn't care.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, run through.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can breathe.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's not that, you know, so same thing for you, like something drops in the ground, let's see place, let's see come, let's see down.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it's not going to, it just makes,
[SPEAKER_00]: When you have a problem with somebody, but you can't communicate with them, you can't get to a point of clarification.
[SPEAKER_01]: But if you have a problem with somebody and you can communicate, a lot of times you can avoid real serious conflict.
[SPEAKER_01]: but it doesn't always, if there's like, if she saw a crumb and I said, Lizzie, sit, she wouldn't, she does leave it well.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like that would probably be the only thing that I could verbally say in that moment that she might do, but even then if it's like too close and she's too amped up, she wouldn't listen to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so it's not, it's not.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and it's not applicable like there's no utility to it, you know, it's like having a car that doesn't have an engine like what's the point is it looks pretty in the driveway, you know, it's like yeah, but there's no point to it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you have obedience that you can't apply in reality, it's it's a facade.
[SPEAKER_00]: So again, you know, there's your all things, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, hey, I have a dog that has resource guarding that I don't have super good obedience with.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't have a good communication with or whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, that's like step one, you know, that is the prerequisite.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, we have a dog with resource guarding.
[SPEAKER_00]: You have to have level three Yodo obedience to avoid any conflicts in the future because that dog is gonna try to take anything that they, so you're gonna have a good leave it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, we did, no, on my YouTube channel, I just did this with a dog, the dog bit the owner four times like bad, like really bad resource carding, small little terrier, and so what we did is we worked on leave it, recall, in place, so when we gave the dog a bone,
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's on my YouTube channel.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's called Hada, stop any dog's resource guarding problems fast.
[SPEAKER_00]: So dog has bit five people in their all the owner.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it was, the owners would come up to the dog with a bone because we gave her a bone.
[SPEAKER_00]: She'd start growling in Starling.
[SPEAKER_00]: We'd say, leave it, which means drop.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we would recall the dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: So she would come away from the bone.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then she'd come to us.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we'd send her to a bed.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we didn't stop the resource carding.
[SPEAKER_00]: We dismantled it with skill sets.
[SPEAKER_00]: Same thing with my dog, really.
[SPEAKER_00]: He wants to go out that door.
[SPEAKER_00]: Me downing him isn't going to change that, but it's going to make him and everyone else around us more successful like that suppression that we just talked about.
[SPEAKER_00]: So he wants to do this, but he's not going to because it's this part of life.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, I want to go 60 and a 30 because I'm late, but it's a school zone.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm not, you know, like, that's part of life.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's just what we do, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, okay, I got to have some restriction here and some discipline.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, that's something to think about, too.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, again, if you came to me and you said, hey, Tom, think about you tonight's my dog, because they bit somebody, and they have research guarding.
[SPEAKER_00]: If they don't have good communication skills, I mean, that's, it's, it's a loaded gun.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's a huge liability.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, I guess from an obedient standpoint,
[SPEAKER_01]: Like these are things I could start to work with her on now in hopes of like getting her to a place where.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, are you saying, and I again, I know you can't tell me, but like.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to be naive in thinking that it would be safe.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I have to do right by our daughter for than anything and my gut tells me that even with.
[SPEAKER_01]: us putting a lot of effort into obedience and all of those things like I just if something ever happened my daughter again, and she and it was worse.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think I would ever forgive myself.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I agree.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's basically I'm saying like to your point we have a situation that is safe for everyone right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not worried about my parents and neither are they.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's like, do I work on a lot of this training with her from an obedient standpoint and then like, hope that that helps from a re-holding standpoint?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that would be, so going back to like board and train, like that's where board and train could come in, help like in a healthy way.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then yes, if you were to say, hey, this dog has already got really good.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like if somebody was to adopt the dog and they can do all the cool stuff,
[SPEAKER_00]: and they can let their dog off leash and go to a park and heal really nicely.
[SPEAKER_00]: Of course, that's going to make a difference.
[SPEAKER_00]: Versus maybe getting a younger dog that is jumping in barking and scratching you and not crate trained.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like if you say, hey, this dog has resource guarding.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have a small kid.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's really not going to be safe for her, but other 98% of the time the dog is amazing and also the dog has really good obedience.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you can just plug and play here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Take
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, so absolutely that makes a difference.
[SPEAKER_00]: But if you said, hey, this dog has zero training, has resource gardening, has a bite history.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, okay, so what are the benefits here?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, where's the ROI?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, particularly if we were to do some intense training like a board and train, because I'll be honest,
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I can spend some time with her every day, but I almost wonder if like a board and train would be better for her to just get like some really hands on professional support that we can then be enforcing at home once she's done versus me just doing it a little bit DIY and I know that that like board train doesn't mean that I don't have to do any work to reinforce it and make it consistent.
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's kind of where my head goes.
[SPEAKER_01]: If we did that particularly, you don't think it would be unethical to try to rehome her to a child free in a most free home.
[SPEAKER_00]: No child free.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, as long as you're up front, I mean, these things happen all the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, um, no, no, the answer is no.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you said, hey, I have a dog that has a history of resource guarding nipped my kid.
[SPEAKER_00]: doesn't get along with other dogs, but has really good obedience and we don't want to have to put the dog down and you're up front and honest.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that that's totally the right move.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, and that's the other cake or two, like from a transparency standpoint, like I put on my Facebook post, like there are certain dogs that she gets along with totally fine and loves.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if she does the snarl thing, they're fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, they just walk away.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think with him, Obedience, like, she could be at a home with another dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: It would just have to be a very specific dog and that they would have to be properly introduced.
[SPEAKER_01]: That dog would have to be well trained, et cetera.
[SPEAKER_01]: But like, I do think she could even hypothetically have that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, he basically lives with two other dogs right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: OK.
[SPEAKER_01]: So in terms of board and train, do you guys, well, should I just go to the website to look at that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, how long do you think she needs?
[SPEAKER_01]: What does that look like?
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, yeah, I mean, yeah, you go to the, where do the website look at the options for the board and train and I would do like you have to build from foundation.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you want advanced obedience, you have like if you came in for a board and train with not much, you have to build from scratch.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's essentially like I want you to build it's a difference between hey can you can you can you come put in new windows versus hey can you build a whole new house with windows, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So you'd have to you'd have to do some sort of, um,
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, longer behavioral, it'd be a behavioral, um, so at least three weeks and and you just say like I want to build the skill sets to avoid any any risks of resource guarding and that's how it would go.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's the three week or four week packages that are on the website.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, at least.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what you to find as foundational, but she does sit, place, stay, down, leave it, take it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, good.
[SPEAKER_00]: We just have to advance it.
[SPEAKER_01]: She has all of that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we just have to advance it because right now, it's not really applicable.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, if I had a piece of food in my hand, I said, leave it.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's taking the food.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's actually might leave it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It depends.
[SPEAKER_01]: Most of the time, like sometimes even if I put something on the ground for her, she won't look, she won't touch it until I say leave it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's, but I would say just occasionally depending on what other scenarios are happening is when she won't adhere to it as much.
[SPEAKER_01]: So all that to say, it sounds like she has a little bit of a foundation.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, that's good.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's good.
[SPEAKER_00]: We just have to, you know, it's got to be with new people.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's going to be a new place around other dogs and so it's good.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's good.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's good.
[SPEAKER_00]: You have a base.
[SPEAKER_00]: We just have to build up from there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, well, we'll talk about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then, um, do you know locally of any rescues that, because I know a lot of the rescues won't
[SPEAKER_01]: do you have any recommendations on like beyond hoping that like a friend of a friend on Facebook kind of situation sees it?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I'm reticent to do it officially through a rescue because say it again basically because she has a bite history.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've seen it a lot of rescue websites that they won't take in a dog with a bite history.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I've been trying flat hoping that someone like a friend of a friend of a friend will see it on Facebook and know someone that kind of a thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would love for it to be somewhere like a scenario where we could stay and touch with her and like know what she's up to and how she's doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I realized that with most rescues if I were to surrender her, I would forfeit that ability.
[SPEAKER_01]: If they would even take her so basically do you know of any resources in New York or locally.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, we're just in Boston's boss, so we're by you, um, that would take a dog with a bite history or just re-horse, like resources on re-holding in federal.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't off the top of my head.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's so many that we have worked with over the years and a lot of times it's actually just us helping them out with different dogs.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's never really like, hey, can you take these dogs?
[SPEAKER_00]: We usually just work the opposite way where they have dogs that they need help with.
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's nothing that comes to mind, but I think your first instinct on finding somebody as a friend of a friend, a cousin, a brother, a neighbor, somebody in the community.
[SPEAKER_00]: So using your own Facebook to just say, like, hey, we have, you know, as our family potentially grows and our kids are growing, like we really want to make a safe place for us.
[SPEAKER_00]: Our children and our family, and we just don't, we would love to find Lizzy another home that can be more suitable so she can live a better life.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then just ask your friends and family to share it around and hopefully somebody that you know is looking for that, and that's the best option.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, sounds good.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that covers all of it,
[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to just talk about all of that, and then we'll reach out to the number on your website and about where to trade if that ends up being the move.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, that's a good, that's a good game plan.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's fair.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think you guys are doing everything.
[SPEAKER_00]: You guys are doing all the right things and just keeping it safe.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the number one thing is keeping it safe and not feeling like you have to rush into this so that way you feel good about the decision.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, for sure.