[SPEAKER_00]: What if the tools aren't working?
[SPEAKER_00]: What if you're so activated, you're so frustrated, you're unable to communicate and healthy ways with one another, today we answer that question.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hello all and welcome to the relationship renovation podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm Tara Kerwin and my name is Eja Kerwin and today's episode is going to be in response to a comment we received from a YouTube viewer and we
[SPEAKER_00]: We had a few episodes ago, a three-part series on communication and specifically communication tools to help you and your partner deal with difficult moments.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the first thing I want to do is I just want to read their comment and it's specifically was around our episode that talked about validation, you know, the ability to let your partner know you hear exactly what they are saying.
[SPEAKER_00]: that you're validating, they're sort of like emotional experience in a moment.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the viewer says, I think the discussions on validation would be more useful if you picked harder examples.
[SPEAKER_00]: Same I partner is borderline gaslighting.
[SPEAKER_00]: is it really the right answer to just validate their false version?
[SPEAKER_00]: That can't be right.
[SPEAKER_00]: How about a classic like this?
[SPEAKER_00]: The reason I'm being distant is I am still mad at you for staring at the waitress the other night.
[SPEAKER_00]: Validating out of the gate that he was staring at
[SPEAKER_00]: But entering with I hear that you felt I was staring at the waitress is not going to be well received in my experience.
[SPEAKER_00]: These are the kind of hard examples worth considering, especially in the early stages when partners are really not listening generously or warmly to each other.
[SPEAKER_02]: First of all, thank you for that amazing comment and because of that comment, we have created a two-part series.
[SPEAKER_02]: We love our series and so part one today is what if we are too activated to use the skills and to do the work?
[SPEAKER_02]: And part two is what if validation feels like agreeing with something that's false?
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a big one.
[SPEAKER_02]: We tried to combine them in one and I was like, there's no way we've got to do too.
[SPEAKER_02]: So the listener is right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Communication tools do not work.
[SPEAKER_02]: When we are in a survival mode, when our nervous system is dysregulated, so we really want to distinguish a couple who has like a skills deficit in communication versus a deficit in regulating their emotions during activating times.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I think like what's really important here is us giving couples out there who are stuck in really difficult repetitive dynamics give them sort of the grace that they're unable to give each other.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that is that many couples are really in these moments, in this moment in a restaurant where there's activation around one person looking at another person in a certain way, they're trying to communicate better.
[SPEAKER_00]: like it's not like they're like dead set on getting into an argument.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think even that that whole comment, like I hear that you felt, you know, I hear that all the time that sort of like differentiation on our model around around validation, I think people are trying, they're just trying when they're pretty flooded, you know, when they're dysregulated.
[SPEAKER_02]: One is good, I mean, the listener kind of presents by hard examples, like hard circumstances in your relationship, break communication tools down, and why those tools don't work when we are escalated.
[SPEAKER_02]: High in activation because you gotta hear this.
[SPEAKER_02]: high activation creates narrative certainty.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know exactly what happened.
[SPEAKER_02]: Don't even try to tell me it happened differently.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so it's very true.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's narrative reality.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And our core sort of idea in this episode is regulation always comes before communication.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that that's really it.
[SPEAKER_00]: The heart of this listener's comment.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that they're trying to go into a discussion, trying to find some sort of agreement when one or probably within 30 seconds, both people are dysregulated.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what's really important here is for couples to know that regulation always has to proceed communication.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can't use the tools until both of your central nervous systems are in a place where you're not in fight, flight, freeze, fawn.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, again, the listener's comment.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's by hard examples, hard circumstances, breakdown communication tools.
[SPEAKER_02]: One, high activation creates narrative certainty.
[SPEAKER_02]: For example, I know what happened, and don't even try to tell me that that didn't happen.
[SPEAKER_02]: So when we're activated, we're in a nervous system, high activation, narrative certainty is a real thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and this sort of speaks deeper here is attachment panic, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's especially apropos in this example of cooking at the waitress, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: attachment panic like I'm not safe in this relationship it's not secure creates threat perception right does that make sense like that if there's something that I perceive that makes me feel that our relationship is not secure then that's a threat right because our relationship is like our like
[SPEAKER_00]: we're going home with this person.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have a life with this person.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have a shared bank account, maybe we have a child with this person.
[SPEAKER_00]: And when our attachment feels threatened, then our life feels threatened.
[SPEAKER_02]: And as in my case, and I'm sure many others right past trauma overrides present reality.
[SPEAKER_02]: A lot of times our partner is gonna trigger stuck on process trauma, which then leads to high activation moments.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if we don't understand what's happening in our body, it's gonna completely override whatever that reality is.
[SPEAKER_02]: And again, I think if you guys have been listening to our podcast, that's what would happen to me a lot.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was overwhelmed with past trauma stuff that I thought I had sorted out, but I didn't.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, and in the case of this listener, the example that they used of really insecurity around the relationship, you're looking at another person, it can be trauma from their relationship, maybe there's been infidelity or things before that have happened that have triggered that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Perhaps it's an old relationship, and yeah, maybe it goes all the way back to childhood type stuff of band and band and that's you But you know, and or it could be like, you know, all three of them and I think like the important thing is we're really what we're talking about here
[SPEAKER_00]: in activation and in this like idea is trauma and this idea I forget you can help me out here.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure Tara with there's from big tea trauma to little tea trauma that there are many things that that sort of just scramble us and test our reality test our safety.
[SPEAKER_00]: And whenever that happens, whenever our safety is tested, emotional safety, physical safety, safety of relationship, we seek certainty.
[SPEAKER_00]: You looked at that person.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we're staring.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just have to share this, because it just came up by we were talking.
[SPEAKER_02]: But like years ago, we've before you, I was in this relationship that totally triggered all of the abandonment wounds I didn't know I had.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I remember like three years in, and he was good looking.
[SPEAKER_02]: and women always looked at him at the bar and I would go out and my stomach would feel like sick.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'd be like, please don't let there be any pretty woman at the bar.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would get so nervous because I thought they would take him from me.
[SPEAKER_02]: I had no idea what it was.
[SPEAKER_02]: I did not know it was abandonment, no clue.
[SPEAKER_02]: But what I would do is blame him for looking at other girls all of the time, because it was my own insecurity, but I didn't even know, and he would be dumbfounded, because he just wasn't that kind of person.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I just remember those feelings of like fear, jealousy, but under that was like, oh my gosh, he's going to find somebody better.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, not until I really learned what my
[SPEAKER_02]: a bandit mitt wounds work, could I now see that?
[SPEAKER_02]: So sorry if you ever listen, ex-boyfriend of like 20 years ago, but it's real, it's so real.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so what we've done so far as we've said, like one of the reasons that these communication models do break in difficult circumstances is because you haven't you hadn't sued your central nervous system you're you're not regulated yet so now we want to get into some like tips just like we did in the communication series and and we want to start like we did in that series with some do not do not like do not if one or oftentimes both of you
[SPEAKER_00]: are disregulated, you're activated.
[SPEAKER_02]: Your first do not is do not debate the facts.
[SPEAKER_02]: Do not debate the facts.
[SPEAKER_02]: It will go nowhere good.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you will just be heels dug in on each side, totally like opposite team.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because if you're activated, one person is seeking that certainty.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the other person probably doesn't see it the same way.
[SPEAKER_00]: They didn't have that experience.
[SPEAKER_00]: So in that activated state, you cannot come to a shared reality of something that happened five minutes ago, or definitely not five months ago, or five years ago, which would often are these trigger ones.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, totally.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, another big, do not, do not try to prove your innocence, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no.
[SPEAKER_00]: I absolutely wasn't looking at them.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just noticed that they're shoelaces were untied.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was wondering whether they were going to trip, you know, even whatever, even if it is your reality trying to prove your innocence is basically negating the other person's
[SPEAKER_00]: And so they're like, no, they're not going to jump on board and accept your innocence at this point.
[SPEAKER_02]: One more, do not, is do not try to have resolution in the moment because it's not going to happen.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you're pushing it, it's actually going to get worse because we don't have to regulate a nervous systems.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I get it, like, I am one of those people, like, I need, like, I don't want to feel uncomfortable for too long.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's only going to reinforce insecure, anxious attachment, and more avoiding attachment.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you do not want to try to have a resolution in the moment, but we are going to tell you what to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: Go in there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so you've had that moment.
[SPEAKER_00]: One or both of you is highly activated.
[SPEAKER_00]: You realize pushing for resolution, proving innocence, debating facts, is not going to work because you've heard this.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what do you do?
[SPEAKER_00]: The first thing you do is you just name the fact that we are activated or most probably importantly that you are because your partner may not be ready to accept that, but hopefully through listening to this podcast sharing it with your partner, you guys both have a context for it and you can use a shared vocabulary of like, I'm activated, so am I, I'm dysregulated, so am I.
[SPEAKER_02]: we're too active, I tend to talk, let's pause.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's when you want to try to, if you can, even if you're out for dinner or somehow take a break from each other.
[SPEAKER_02]: The research shows like 20 to 30 minutes can be helpful in the beginning to get that nervous system reset, even just breathing, getting some fresh air,
[SPEAKER_02]: walking by lateral stimulation, but you want to take some space before you come back together.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's right.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's our code word.
[SPEAKER_02]: We love that.
[SPEAKER_02]: We say try to come back within 25 to 30 minutes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes it's two hours, but they're coming back to each other in a way that feels better because now they're more regulated hopefully.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you have a shared code and a shared agreement of you're gonna take that break with the code word, please use that.
[SPEAKER_00]: If not, it can look like, hey honey, I think like right now like we are too activated to talk about this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's take a break and let's come back together.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I just, I love using
[SPEAKER_00]: plural pronouns, the weas, the usas, because it's not saying you.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you'll soak together and connect it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because that's what we're trying to get.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're trying to get back eventually to a place of connection.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is where when you come back, this is where you can slip in those little tools of active listening, validation.
[SPEAKER_02]: So next we do think it's important to take a short dive into when, when true distortion or gaslighting is present and we want to help differentiate insecurity based distortion versus gaslighting manipulation.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a differentiation of these two.
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel a little bit passionate about this because there are certain terms that have worked into like pop culture, that label behaviors that are misused, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I mean years ago it was bipolar.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was like, you know, anything that felt like, you know, two extremes, it was like, well, this person is bipolar.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's just like, it's not accurate, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not accurate and it can be really weaponized, or it can just be misunderstood, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think like what Tara said is like super important is like, we gotta help you understand that the difference between manipulative gas lighting and insecurity-based distortion.
[SPEAKER_00]: And in order to do that, the easiest way is just to define the two.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so, and I can share this because I've had it, insecurity-based distortion.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's fear-driven.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's reactive.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's emotional-based, and it's not intentional.
[SPEAKER_02]: So let me just repeat that again.
[SPEAKER_02]: In security-based distortion is fear-based, reactive.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's emotion-based, and it's not intentional.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's what I had just shared my story, like going to the bar with my ex-boyfriend and I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm so nervous.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm so afraid that like some other girls going to take them away.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I would get a highly emotional and like foreshadow, like please don't let any pretty girls be in the bar because if they are, then like this is going to be awful.
[SPEAKER_02]: it was not intentional.
[SPEAKER_02]: None of that was intentional.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would never intentionally want to feel that awful.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's like insecurity based distortion.
[SPEAKER_00]: And probably told him you're accused of things at times.
[SPEAKER_02]: Totally true.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I know you were looking at her because how could you not because she's so beautiful.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah, I was that girl.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So then the opposite gaslighting is a persistent denial of reality to destabilize a partner.
[SPEAKER_00]: So again, we just want to differentiate the two that insecurity-based distortions are coming from a reactive place.
[SPEAKER_00]: And gaslighting is an intentional effort to distort the truth.
[SPEAKER_00]: in order to manipulate your partner.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we get, because we've seen it, why it's really hard to differentiate the two, especially in the moment, because when your partner is perhaps saying that you did something, that you really, your honest truth is that it wasn't that, it can feel like your reality is being worked.
[SPEAKER_00]: It takes some thoughtfulness, and so if we're just saying in this circumstance with Terra's ex-boyfriend, is if she accused him of something, and then he got to the point where he was activated and super defensive, it would be really hard for him to
[SPEAKER_00]: to take in and sort of do the deep thought of like is she intentionally manipulating or is she just functioning from a place of real deep insecurity, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Deep suffering.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's why we need that pause for one or both of us to calm down.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now if true gaslighting is present, this is important.
[SPEAKER_00]: Communication models don't work.
[SPEAKER_02]: We don't work.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is where like boundaries come in in protection and
[SPEAKER_00]: yet you need help.
[SPEAKER_00]: If true gaslighting where one person is manipulating reality is distorting it in order to destabilize their partner,
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, there's there's there's some deeper stuff going on.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're definitely going to need a professional.
[SPEAKER_00]: So so we just want to we don't want to belabor this too much, but but it is important for you to understand the difference between those two things.
[SPEAKER_00]: So now where we're jumping back.
[SPEAKER_00]: So now you and your partner are listening to this.
[SPEAKER_00]: You really identified with this listener, this viewer, and we're like, Matt, what we just, we just aren't able to use those models yet.
[SPEAKER_00]: But now you guys have a context and you're like, you know it to not do.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, the importance of pulling a part in a mindful thoughtful way in order to stabilize.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, Tara, what do they do when they come back to the conversation?
[SPEAKER_02]: when you come back to the conversation, however long, hopefully sooner than later, you wanna go in with a shared intention.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, hey, I really, we wanna understand each other that one sideways, neither of us wanted that to happen, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: But you're having a shared intention of like, we're trying to understand what just happened, not a recent and never make it happen again.
[SPEAKER_02]: We just wanna understand each other.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I think once we set that shared intention,
[SPEAKER_00]: that were present before acknowledging the content.
[SPEAKER_00]: So in this example from the viewer, it's not going right back into the waitress.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no.
[SPEAKER_00]: If I was the person being told that I was looking at the waitress, it's, I felt really defensive.
[SPEAKER_00]: I felt like I felt confused.
[SPEAKER_00]: I felt overwhelmed.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe if you were that, the other person, Tara, what might have you been feeling?
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I was feeling insecure, I was feeling anxious.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know it's feeling scared, yeah, insecure, anxious and scared.
[SPEAKER_00]: And just that, like, the shared intention, the opening up about me feeling defensive, you feeling like insecure, automatically it changes the tone, right, there's no debate there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, no, you didn't feel insecure.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know she felt insecure, like what's, I'm not gonna disagree with that reality.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's also, like, setting boundaries around your different narratives because both of you had different narratives.
[SPEAKER_02]: In that moment, one was like, you're looking at the waitress, the other might have been, no, I'm not, but you can set gentle boundaries.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is going to get more into our part two series, like, how can you validate, but not agree if something feels false, but it's like, hey, I care.
[SPEAKER_02]: that you felt hurt.
[SPEAKER_02]: I truly care that you felt hurt, but I don't agree with the perception, but let's talk about what came up for you, and then I'm my hope is that I can talk about what came up for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's a boundary.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like I care, I don't agree with that perception, but I really want to know what came up for you, so I can understand better.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that really is so that's going to be next week.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's going to be the part two is so you've now you have a way to recognize and understand that you're dysregulated, that you're out of sight of your window of tolerance.
[SPEAKER_00]: You have some do nots and do's.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the next week we're going to come back and we're going to talk about like,
[SPEAKER_00]: How do you validate in a moment where you don't agree with a perception?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they have some to this boss.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, this is great.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so our closing messages, and we really just want this Lucer to want to agree with them in a lot of ways, and it's said, yeah, you can't skill your way now through a moment where you're in survival mode.
[SPEAKER_00]: that regulation is a prerequisite to repair.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a huge one.
[SPEAKER_00]: Say that again, regulation is the prerequisite to repair.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, communication skills only work when we feel safe.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you are, if like you and your partner, if you are just stuck in activation together, go see some professional support, like the therapist, especially trained in couples, really good at creating emotional safety.
[SPEAKER_02]: in their room, and if you don't know how emotional safety feels like because you've never been able to have that because of these patterns, negative patterns of activation with you and your partner.
[SPEAKER_02]: It can be so helpful and so profound because, I mean, our goal is like help people suffer less, but there is skills to help people suffer less.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not just this light switch, and we know that therapy coaching can be really helpful for that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we want to just like go out of our way to really thank this viewer.
[SPEAKER_00]: The listeners like them because you all inspire us and make us go a little deeper.
[SPEAKER_00]: So so valuable we appreciate all of your all of your comments.
[SPEAKER_00]: Please continue.
[SPEAKER_00]: Continue your emails, podcasts of relationship renovation.com.
[SPEAKER_00]: Jump into our Patreon community.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is getting more and more robust, more and more members, thoughtful conversations, daily tips.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just click on the link in the show notes to join our Patreon community.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I would just like to say for preventative measures.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you're listening right now, it's probably because you're disconnected in your relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're wanting to learn more skills and if there's hope, that's great.
[SPEAKER_02]: But like our relationship innovation at home manual on Amazon for like $25, like you can, if you're not in crisis, if you're not disconnected, but you're even in a newer relationship, or you know someone that's in a newer relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: It builds so many awesome skills, empathy, compassion so that you don't have to wait for a crisis.
[SPEAKER_02]: Our goal is to really do more preventative work so that couples don't wait seven, eight, nine years of being in this dysregulated state.
[SPEAKER_02]: It sucks.
[SPEAKER_02]: We don't want that for you.
[SPEAKER_02]: So get in there earlier, convince your friends and family to do what earlier than later, instead of just not getting into relationships.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, anyway, thank you for listening as always.
[SPEAKER_02]: Take care of yourself.
[SPEAKER_01]: Take care of each other, bye-bye.