WEBVTT 00:05.836 --> 00:08.267 [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the Lord of the Rings lorecast. 00:09.151 --> 00:14.918 [SPEAKER_00]: The show that explores the background of Tolkien's amazing world, from the very beginning. 00:24.128 --> 00:33.409 [SPEAKER_01]: But as the world becomes darker, and this is something that is hit on time and time again in this part of the fellowship of the ring. 00:33.809 --> 00:39.943 [SPEAKER_01]: This idea that the world outside the Shire is becoming dangerous. 00:39.923 --> 00:47.271 [SPEAKER_01]: Things are getting worse and even the Hobbits, even the most reclusive Hobbits are hearing rumors of things. 00:47.731 --> 00:55.980 [SPEAKER_01]: The world is changing and they can feel it in this little pocket of the world where it seems like they never are really in any real danger. 00:56.561 --> 01:03.028 [SPEAKER_01]: And yet, for the Hobbits that are paying attention, they're starting to notice the things are changing. 01:03.008 --> 01:11.258 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not going to go into too much of a real-world corollary here, but I have a feeling that many of us have felt this before. 01:11.939 --> 01:17.225 [SPEAKER_01]: This conversation that we're about to see between Sam and one of his peers feels very real. 01:17.746 --> 01:26.957 [SPEAKER_01]: And by that, I mean, I have a feeling many of you will have had conversations like this in recent years, whether it was about... 01:26.937 --> 01:32.688 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if the pandemic or politics or anything like that, it really doesn't matter the specific example. 01:32.768 --> 01:42.988 [SPEAKER_01]: What is important here is that the conversations are around in individual, revealing information and knowledge that other people don't want to believe is true. 01:42.968 --> 01:49.999 [SPEAKER_01]: And we're about to see this play out twice between Sam and Ted Sandiman and then also between Frodo and Gandalf. 01:50.600 --> 02:05.584 [SPEAKER_01]: And in the first conversation, Sam is trying to tell Ted that there are things going on out there and there are dark tidings of bad things that could affect the Shire and yet Ted doesn't want to admit that this is true at all. 02:05.564 --> 02:25.291 [SPEAKER_01]: And the other conversation is between Gandalf returning to Frodo after being gone for a significant period of time and revealing to him that the ring that was given to him by the person that he trusts most in the world is in fact evil and will bring all sorts of problems to him. 02:26.052 --> 02:32.922 [SPEAKER_01]: And in the first scenario, Ted pushes 02:32.902 --> 02:37.428 [SPEAKER_01]: And on the second, Frodo accepts the truth from Gandalf. 02:38.088 --> 02:47.701 [SPEAKER_01]: And sure, you could argue that Gandalf is a wizard and Frodo was raised to have respect for him and has probably seen examples of his knowledge and wisdom throughout his life. 02:48.181 --> 02:54.729 [SPEAKER_01]: And somebody like Sam and Ted, it's tend to be more peers and you tend to be a little bit more skeptical when a peer comes to you about something. 02:54.809 --> 02:56.091 [SPEAKER_01]: But also, 02:56.071 --> 02:58.235 [SPEAKER_01]: Isn't that what friendship should be about? 02:58.736 --> 03:04.206 [SPEAKER_01]: Shouldn't you trust your friends when they bring to you these ideas that you may not want to believe our true? 03:04.246 --> 03:06.951 [SPEAKER_01]: But no, Ted pushes back against it. 03:07.211 --> 03:15.126 [SPEAKER_01]: And this will be revealed at the very end of the Lord of the Rings, but Ted Sandiman is also not a great character when it comes to... 03:15.106 --> 03:20.175 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, Sauremon taking over the Shire later, but that's a whole other topic for another time. 03:20.676 --> 03:35.363 [SPEAKER_01]: I think what I really want you to focus on in this section of the story is the difference between those two conversations and how Ted pushes back and Frodo is accepting of it, even though the news is more dire and terrible. 03:35.663 --> 03:38.869 [SPEAKER_01]: It's an interesting dichotomy if we can use that word. 03:38.849 --> 03:40.512 [SPEAKER_01]: Sounds a little pretentious, but we'll go with it. 03:40.832 --> 03:56.436 [SPEAKER_01]: There's also another theme here, which I think is important, and something that gets hit home over and over and over again in the story, is that the way you combat evil, even just evil news, but evil in the world, the terrible things that are going on. 03:56.416 --> 03:58.419 [SPEAKER_01]: is through unity and friendship. 03:58.879 --> 04:00.942 [SPEAKER_01]: It is not through division and argument. 04:01.563 --> 04:05.228 [SPEAKER_01]: There's a reason why they build the fellowship of the ring. 04:05.689 --> 04:14.982 [SPEAKER_01]: There's a reason why these different groups come together, men and elves and hobbits and dwarves in order to combat the darkness. 04:14.962 --> 04:15.523 [SPEAKER_01]: together. 04:15.984 --> 04:29.545 [SPEAKER_01]: And I like to think that Tolkien understood the difference between good in evil fundamentally is that evil seeks to divide, usually based on lies, and good seeks to bring people together. 04:29.566 --> 04:32.931 [SPEAKER_01]: This is something that is fundamental to the character of Gandalf. 04:32.951 --> 04:39.822 [SPEAKER_01]: His purpose is to unite the free peoples of Middle Earth against a common enemy. 04:39.802 --> 04:43.767 [SPEAKER_01]: And you might say, well, wait a minute, aren't they then dividing against that common enemy? 04:44.067 --> 04:45.028 [SPEAKER_01]: But there's a difference here. 04:45.809 --> 04:49.374 [SPEAKER_01]: There is truth around why that enemy is the enemy. 04:49.994 --> 04:55.501 [SPEAKER_01]: That enemy, Sauron, is factually evil. 04:55.781 --> 05:02.509 [SPEAKER_01]: He is doing actually evil things, terrible things, murdering, corrupting, and slaving. 05:03.270 --> 05:05.733 [SPEAKER_01]: That is by definition, evil. 05:05.913 --> 05:08.897 [SPEAKER_01]: And there are mountains of evidence against this. 05:09.569 --> 05:12.414 [SPEAKER_01]: The peoples of Middle-earth, the free peoples, yeah, sure. 05:12.514 --> 05:15.360 [SPEAKER_01]: Some of them have more corrupt kings or leaders. 05:15.440 --> 05:17.844 [SPEAKER_01]: Some of them are better than others as individuals. 05:18.225 --> 05:23.655 [SPEAKER_01]: But on a whole, the majority of each culture would rather be at peace with everyone else around them. 05:24.196 --> 05:30.227 [SPEAKER_01]: And they don't seek to subjugate everybody else in order to dominate and control the world. 05:30.207 --> 05:37.277 [SPEAKER_01]: Those are two very different perspectives, and so there's some nuance here of course, but you can see where this is going. 05:37.638 --> 05:40.542 [SPEAKER_01]: The point here is even in these early conversations. 05:41.103 --> 05:44.748 [SPEAKER_01]: The solution to fighting the evil of the world is to unite together. 05:44.788 --> 05:49.495 [SPEAKER_01]: And even small ways, the solution, funny enough, is friendship. 05:50.116 --> 05:53.080 [SPEAKER_01]: The solution here is Frodo is not alone. 05:53.521 --> 05:55.704 [SPEAKER_01]: Frodo has friends on this journey. 05:56.105 --> 05:59.590 [SPEAKER_01]: It starts with Gandalf and Mary and Sam. 05:59.570 --> 06:05.960 [SPEAKER_01]: But it will soon grow, and if you pick this theory apart a little bit more, friendship is dependent on other qualities. 06:06.341 --> 06:16.677 [SPEAKER_01]: You don't become friends and stay friends with people unless they are trustworthy, unless they are caring, unless they are considerate and empathetic, all of these good qualities. 06:17.117 --> 06:19.401 [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes evil people work together, sure. 06:19.381 --> 06:22.005 [SPEAKER_01]: but they don't trust each other and Tolkien understood this. 06:22.546 --> 06:25.049 [SPEAKER_01]: So let's get into the details here of these two conversations. 06:25.229 --> 06:32.239 [SPEAKER_01]: We'll start with the conversation between Sam and Ted Sandiman and then we'll get into the beginning of the return of Gandalf talking with Frodo. 06:32.259 --> 06:41.693 [SPEAKER_01]: So let's get into it. 06:49.334 --> 06:56.326 [SPEAKER_01]: So the beginning of the section says, little of all this, of course, reached the ears of ordinary hobbits, about the bad news beyond the borders. 06:56.806 --> 07:04.539 [SPEAKER_01]: But even the deficit and most stay at home began to hear queer tales, and those whose business took them to the borders saw strange things. 07:05.080 --> 07:13.013 [SPEAKER_01]: So even the hobbits who were living in the shire, who made it to their borders, started to notice things with their own eyes. 07:12.993 --> 07:21.527 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, I need to point out the use of the word queer here because this comes up every so often in Tolkien's works, and this is the antiquated use of the word meaning strange or weird. 07:21.747 --> 07:31.062 [SPEAKER_01]: Just in case you weren't aware, but this moves on to a conversation at the green dragon at by-water between Sam and Ted Sandiman, which is an interesting name. 07:31.102 --> 07:36.110 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, this is one of those things that I discovered on this section of the text that I thought was super interesting. 07:36.551 --> 07:40.317 [SPEAKER_01]: Ted Sandiman is described as the Miller's Sun. 07:40.297 --> 07:49.835 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so we know it's talking right, which means more likely than not, there's a reason why this character is named Sandiman and he's a Miller's son. 07:50.356 --> 07:51.679 [SPEAKER_01]: So let's dig into that a little bit. 07:52.139 --> 07:53.602 [SPEAKER_01]: What exactly is a Miller? 07:53.783 --> 08:02.980 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, Miller's a common last name, at least here in the US, and it goes back to a lineage of names that described somebody's profession. 08:02.960 --> 08:16.872 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, like Smith, somebody who was a Smith might have gotten the last name, Smith, and then that passes down the family, Miller's the same way, Miller comes from the millstone, a millstone was used to grind grain into flour. 08:17.534 --> 08:20.059 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, easy enough, right, but what does that have to do with Sandy, man? 08:20.440 --> 08:21.643 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it turns out... 08:21.623 --> 08:24.006 [SPEAKER_01]: That this actually correlates a few different ways. 08:24.166 --> 08:39.948 [SPEAKER_01]: First of all, a bad miller may not have kept up their equipment, which was made of sandstone or grit stone, and over time it would create sand as the stones would grind together, and this could get into the grain or all over the floor or whatever. 08:40.409 --> 08:41.250 [SPEAKER_01]: Sandiman, right? 08:41.550 --> 08:42.692 [SPEAKER_01]: But that's not just it. 08:42.752 --> 08:48.019 [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, that is probably the least likely of reasons why Tolkien went with Sandiman. 08:47.999 --> 08:55.527 [SPEAKER_01]: Secondly, there's a trope historically, especially in middle English, of dishonest millers. 08:55.928 --> 08:59.111 [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, this comes up in Canterbury Tales by Chaucer. 08:59.532 --> 09:08.642 [SPEAKER_01]: The idea that first of all, millers often would take a portion of the grain and keep it for themselves as kind of like a personal tax and it would be hard to track this. 09:08.662 --> 09:17.652 [SPEAKER_01]: So they would steal from their own product in order to make more, or earn more, I guess you could say, in order to keep it for themselves. 09:17.632 --> 09:21.016 [SPEAKER_01]: But how would they offset the weights in order to get away with this? 09:21.116 --> 09:28.284 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, they would bulk up the flour by adding sand or dust to it, which was extremely dishonest and kind of gross. 09:28.384 --> 09:30.926 [SPEAKER_01]: When you think about maybe you potentially would have eaten that. 09:30.966 --> 09:35.031 [SPEAKER_01]: But most likely it was used for feed and livestock, but people ate it as well. 09:35.191 --> 09:40.737 [SPEAKER_01]: So that was extremely dishonest, especially for people who are going to eat your sandy grain. 09:40.717 --> 09:42.481 [SPEAKER_01]: But there's also the social implication here. 09:42.641 --> 09:50.056 [SPEAKER_01]: Sam's basically going to end up in an argument with Ted, who we come to realize has a bit of an abrasive personality, much like sand. 09:50.598 --> 09:51.980 [SPEAKER_01]: So it works on several different levels. 09:52.321 --> 09:53.965 [SPEAKER_01]: But here, let's break down the conversation. 09:54.125 --> 09:58.033 [SPEAKER_01]: Sam says, queer things you do hear these days to be sure. 09:58.013 --> 10:04.001 [SPEAKER_01]: Ah, said Ted, you do, if you listen, but I can hear fire-side tales and children's stories at home if I want to. 10:04.602 --> 10:07.565 [SPEAKER_01]: Basically, I'm applying that he doesn't pay attention to these things. 10:07.666 --> 10:10.289 [SPEAKER_01]: It's all fairy tales and who cares about that. 10:11.150 --> 10:16.757 [SPEAKER_01]: And then Sam responds, no doubt you can, and I dare say there's more truth in some of them than you reckon. 10:17.278 --> 10:18.580 [SPEAKER_01]: Who invented the stories anyway? 10:18.820 --> 10:20.342 [SPEAKER_01]: Take dragons now. 10:20.322 --> 10:37.420 [SPEAKER_01]: Now Sam is clearly the wiser of these two characters, especially from Tolkien's perspective, because he believes that even in these fireside tales, children's stories, fairy tales, myths, those types of things that there are grains of truth. 10:37.400 --> 10:47.077 [SPEAKER_01]: And being that there are grains of truth, this kind of ironic that Sam can't identify the grains, being that he's sanding man, which is kind of neither here nor there, but you get where I'm going with that. 10:47.397 --> 10:58.176 [SPEAKER_01]: But also, Sam uses this retort to kind of imply that Ted should give those things more credit, and therefore should give also these other rumors more credit. 10:58.156 --> 11:00.078 [SPEAKER_01]: Ted response, no thank you. 11:00.458 --> 11:00.779 [SPEAKER_01]: I won't. 11:00.979 --> 11:04.523 [SPEAKER_01]: I heard tell of them when I was a youngster, but there's no call to believe in them now. 11:04.943 --> 11:07.466 [SPEAKER_01]: There's only one dragon in bywater, and that's green. 11:07.946 --> 11:09.368 [SPEAKER_01]: He said with a general laugh. 11:09.989 --> 11:15.835 [SPEAKER_01]: So of course he's making the joke here about the green dragon being the name of the pub, the inn, that they're in. 11:16.415 --> 11:18.017 [SPEAKER_01]: But we know, dragons are real. 11:18.137 --> 11:19.138 [SPEAKER_01]: We've read the Hobbit. 11:19.258 --> 11:24.484 [SPEAKER_01]: We know that there was a very real dragon in that story, and Sam is right about that. 11:24.464 --> 11:29.793 [SPEAKER_01]: Sam says, all right, and then he laughs with everyone else, and it implies here that they're part of a larger crowd. 11:30.213 --> 11:31.696 [SPEAKER_01]: But what about these treatment? 11:31.796 --> 11:39.829 [SPEAKER_01]: These giants, as you might call them, they do say that one bigger than a tree was seen up away beyond the north moors, not long back. 11:40.190 --> 11:46.060 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, clearly Sam is talking about ants, but we don't know about ants yet, because we haven't gotten to that part of the story. 11:46.520 --> 11:48.784 [SPEAKER_01]: So he's setting up both 11:48.764 --> 11:57.302 [SPEAKER_01]: Hence, and this idea that trees can move and be aware of their surroundings, which we will eventually realize when they make it to the old forest. 11:57.562 --> 12:06.621 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, if you're a new reader to the book, you don't know that Sam is correct here, but it is one of those things that we can reflect on later and go, oh, Sam was right. 12:06.601 --> 12:08.062 [SPEAKER_01]: Who's they, asks Ted? 12:08.923 --> 12:14.349 [SPEAKER_01]: My cousin, Hal, for one, he works for Mr. Buffen at Overhill and goes up to the North Farthing for hunting. 12:14.769 --> 12:15.710 [SPEAKER_01]: He saw one. 12:15.730 --> 12:22.497 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, this is interesting because it doesn't mean that these are old rumors, that these are actually very current rumors. 12:22.817 --> 12:30.085 [SPEAKER_01]: We also know that the ants have lost their antwives, or at least we find this out later, and this leads to some speculation, right? 12:30.505 --> 12:36.591 [SPEAKER_01]: The ants that we know of all live in Fangord Forest, which is hundreds of miles away from the Shire, 12:36.571 --> 12:43.502 [SPEAKER_01]: How would they be traveling around the world in order to show up on the borders, especially the northern borders of the Shire? 12:43.542 --> 12:45.165 [SPEAKER_01]: That doesn't really make any sense. 12:45.305 --> 12:50.833 [SPEAKER_01]: People would be more aware of these moving trees if they were constantly relocating. 12:50.894 --> 12:55.881 [SPEAKER_01]: We also know that many of the ends when we get to Fangorn Forest are less active than they used to be. 12:56.282 --> 12:58.866 [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, they don't seem to wander much at all. 12:58.846 --> 13:03.350 [SPEAKER_01]: So, which of these giants did Sam's cousin Hal C? 13:03.650 --> 13:09.696 [SPEAKER_01]: Or was it just a moving tree and it kind of looked sort of like a giant tree that walked around like a person? 13:10.076 --> 13:10.416 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know. 13:10.617 --> 13:16.722 [SPEAKER_01]: So Ted responds, says he did perhaps, your house always saying he's seen things and maybe he sees things that ain't there. 13:17.082 --> 13:22.527 [SPEAKER_01]: But this one was as big as an element walking, walking seven yards to a stride, if it was an inch. 13:22.928 --> 13:28.853 [SPEAKER_01]: So Sam settles this, this doesn't feel like it's just a moving tree, 13:28.833 --> 13:33.599 [SPEAKER_01]: Ted responds, then I bet it wasn't an inch, what he saw was an Elm Tree, as like as not. 13:34.400 --> 13:38.905 [SPEAKER_01]: This one was walking, I tell you, and there ain't no Elm Tree on the North Morse. 13:39.245 --> 13:41.308 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, this is an interesting point by Sam. 13:41.748 --> 13:51.500 [SPEAKER_01]: Not only does he double down on trusting his cousin, house, description of this walking tree, but he also very specifically says, there are no Elm trees up there. 13:51.660 --> 13:53.783 [SPEAKER_01]: And Sam is a gardener, he knows his plants. 13:54.163 --> 13:58.148 [SPEAKER_01]: But then Ted turns this around on him and 13:58.550 --> 14:04.098 [SPEAKER_01]: then everybody laughs and the audience thinks that Ted scores the point in this conversation. 14:04.519 --> 14:06.181 [SPEAKER_01]: But Sam responds, all the same. 14:06.581 --> 14:12.169 [SPEAKER_01]: You can't deny that others beside our house has have seen queer folk crossing the shire, crossing it mind you. 14:12.550 --> 14:14.773 [SPEAKER_01]: There are more that are turned back at the borders. 14:15.194 --> 14:18.178 [SPEAKER_01]: The bounders have never been so busy before. 14:18.158 --> 14:26.330 [SPEAKER_01]: Sam pivots to another example for his point because he realizes that he's not going to convince anybody that there are walking trees. 14:26.731 --> 14:41.213 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that sounds weird, but we do have other evidence that is more grounded, like strangers crossing the shire and others being pushed back and not 14:41.193 --> 14:43.437 [SPEAKER_01]: this comes from the word boundary. 14:43.818 --> 14:55.639 [SPEAKER_01]: These were the extra sheriffs that were employed in order to watch the boundaries in case dangerous things happened and they would have hired more during times like this when the boundaries seemed less secure. 14:56.000 --> 15:03.133 [SPEAKER_01]: So this is a lot harder to refute because there is evidence of more hobbits working on the boundaries and having to turn people away. 15:03.113 --> 15:05.196 [SPEAKER_01]: And I've heard tell that elves are moving west. 15:05.396 --> 15:09.001 [SPEAKER_01]: They do say they are going to the harbors out of way beyond the white towers. 15:09.382 --> 15:22.320 [SPEAKER_01]: So not only is this another fact that they could confirm, they can see the elves traveling through their lands, and they don't have to go out of their way to do this, they come in kind of these groups who migrate through the area and then people will probably talk about them. 15:22.300 --> 15:23.702 [SPEAKER_01]: Not all of them are discovered. 15:23.722 --> 15:27.206 [SPEAKER_01]: They're kind of quiet and they keep to themselves, but it is something that they've noticed. 15:27.426 --> 15:36.237 [SPEAKER_01]: But even more interestingly, this is the first time that we hear about the gray havens, which are mentioned here, and the ships that will not return to middle-earth. 15:37.098 --> 15:43.546 [SPEAKER_01]: This is implying something beyond just speculation about strange tree people walking around beyond the borders. 15:44.026 --> 15:46.589 [SPEAKER_01]: This is important sounding, right? 15:46.649 --> 15:49.573 [SPEAKER_01]: The elves are leaving 15:49.553 --> 15:50.254 [SPEAKER_01]: Middle-earth. 15:50.795 --> 15:51.716 [SPEAKER_01]: Why would they do that? 15:51.937 --> 15:52.918 [SPEAKER_01]: Are they evacuating? 15:52.978 --> 15:53.719 [SPEAKER_01]: What's going on? 15:54.160 --> 15:58.807 [SPEAKER_01]: Now we, of course, know that there's a reason why the elves are all leaving for Valenar. 15:59.328 --> 16:03.114 [SPEAKER_01]: Their time is ending in Middle-earth, and it's changing. 16:03.154 --> 16:04.536 [SPEAKER_01]: The world is about to change. 16:04.556 --> 16:07.100 [SPEAKER_01]: It's about to usher in the ages of man. 16:07.400 --> 16:13.249 [SPEAKER_01]: The first three ages of the world were more ages of the elves, but things are changing on a fundamental level. 16:13.229 --> 16:22.422 [SPEAKER_01]: Their sailing sailing sailing over the sea, they are going into the west and leaving us, said Sam, half chanting the words, shaking his head sadly and solemnly. 16:23.243 --> 16:24.825 [SPEAKER_01]: But Ted laughed. 16:24.845 --> 16:29.792 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that isn't anything new if you believe the old tales, and I don't see why it matters to mere you. 16:30.113 --> 16:30.834 [SPEAKER_01]: Let them sail. 16:31.154 --> 16:35.440 [SPEAKER_01]: But I warn't you haven't seen them doing it, nor anyone else in the Shire. 16:35.420 --> 16:36.702 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's a fair point. 16:37.162 --> 16:39.365 [SPEAKER_01]: That's like, okay, well, we haven't actually seen this. 16:39.405 --> 16:40.887 [SPEAKER_01]: This is a lot like the old stories. 16:41.288 --> 16:43.611 [SPEAKER_01]: How is it really any different? 16:43.631 --> 16:45.594 [SPEAKER_01]: Sam responds, well, I don't know. 16:45.614 --> 16:47.436 [SPEAKER_01]: And he says this thoughtfully. 16:47.817 --> 16:53.584 [SPEAKER_01]: And at this point, we get some more insight about Sam, which aligns him more with our understanding of Frodo and Bilbo. 16:54.005 --> 16:58.932 [SPEAKER_01]: We're told that he believes he had seen an elf before, and hoped to see more one day. 16:58.972 --> 17:02.136 [SPEAKER_01]: He was curious like they were. 17:02.116 --> 17:07.766 [SPEAKER_01]: And for Sam that feels more natural, he is a representative of the working class. 17:08.006 --> 17:08.867 [SPEAKER_01]: He is a gardener. 17:08.908 --> 17:14.136 [SPEAKER_01]: He is somebody who has very close ties to the Earth, itself, and nature. 17:14.898 --> 17:19.145 [SPEAKER_01]: It makes sense that he would want to meet the elves because so do they. 17:19.185 --> 17:20.968 [SPEAKER_01]: And we know this. 17:20.948 --> 17:27.619 [SPEAKER_01]: So it makes sense from our kind of meta-perspective, especially having studied this before, but you can see how all of this is coming together. 17:28.080 --> 17:30.924 [SPEAKER_01]: And Sam doesn't just hold these beliefs because he hoops for them. 17:30.944 --> 17:34.470 [SPEAKER_01]: He believes in these things because he has actual evidence. 17:34.490 --> 17:39.919 [SPEAKER_01]: He says there are some, even in these parts, as no the fair folk can get news of them. 17:39.899 --> 17:43.062 [SPEAKER_01]: He said, there's Mr. Baggins now that I work for. 17:43.443 --> 17:46.285 [SPEAKER_01]: He told me that they were sailing and he knows a bit about elves. 17:46.646 --> 17:48.388 [SPEAKER_01]: An old Mr. Bilbo knew more. 17:48.928 --> 17:51.871 [SPEAKER_01]: Many's the talk I had with him when I was a little lad. 17:52.732 --> 17:54.874 [SPEAKER_01]: Now Sam trusts them. 17:55.054 --> 17:56.536 [SPEAKER_01]: He knows that they're good people. 17:56.896 --> 18:01.781 [SPEAKER_01]: And he knows that Bilbo can speak the truth about his experiences with the elves. 18:01.861 --> 18:05.485 [SPEAKER_01]: And we have to remember, Bilbo has met Elrond. 18:05.465 --> 18:19.600 [SPEAKER_01]: Bilbo has spent time with the elves, living with them for very short periods of time, but staying with them, hearing their stories, experiencing their world, their world view, and probably heard many of their stories firsthand. 18:20.221 --> 18:28.350 [SPEAKER_01]: But of course, this isn't enough for Ted, because he like many of the other hobbits, believe that Frodo and Bilbo are not trustworthy. 18:28.330 --> 18:30.013 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, they're both cracked, said Ted. 18:30.053 --> 18:32.618 [SPEAKER_01]: Leastways, old Bilbo, was cracked and Frodo's cracking. 18:33.099 --> 18:36.104 [SPEAKER_01]: If that's where you get your news from, you'll never want for moonshine. 18:36.945 --> 18:40.572 [SPEAKER_01]: The joke being that, like, you don't need to get drunk to have ridiculous news. 18:40.973 --> 18:42.475 [SPEAKER_01]: But Ted is still friendly enough. 18:42.515 --> 18:43.878 [SPEAKER_01]: This is a friendly argument. 18:43.998 --> 18:44.860 [SPEAKER_01]: A friendly little debate. 18:44.900 --> 18:46.743 [SPEAKER_01]: And he says, well, friends, I'm off home. 18:46.923 --> 18:47.504 [SPEAKER_01]: You're good health. 18:47.885 --> 18:49.528 [SPEAKER_01]: And drains his mug and leaves. 18:49.677 --> 19:05.847 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think there's a greater point here is that although we know Sam is right, he doesn't really have evidence and he's not going to convince anybody just by saying, well, this is what I think and here's why people like Ted need to experience these things for themselves and talking understood this. 19:05.827 --> 19:07.689 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's not necessarily a bad thing. 19:07.929 --> 19:11.733 [SPEAKER_01]: Requiring more evidence before you believe something is not bad. 19:11.933 --> 19:16.839 [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, that's being skeptical and that's in fact how the scientific method works, right? 19:16.939 --> 19:26.369 [SPEAKER_01]: And until you actually have documented evidence that's either witness multiple times or replicated, then changing your beliefs about something is probably not necessarily a great idea. 19:26.929 --> 19:30.773 [SPEAKER_01]: But he also doesn't even entertain the idea at all. 19:30.894 --> 19:34.197 [SPEAKER_01]: There's a place between belief and not belief. 19:34.177 --> 19:39.926 [SPEAKER_01]: that being a place to listen and consider it, but he doesn't even consider it. 19:40.147 --> 19:48.280 [SPEAKER_01]: So the conversation ends and we're told that there's more for Sam to do and he's considering all of this, but also working on the garden and the weather and all of that. 19:48.821 --> 19:51.405 [SPEAKER_01]: And we're informed here that this is now early April. 19:51.705 --> 19:54.750 [SPEAKER_01]: And I love that we watch as Sam believes. 19:54.730 --> 19:58.976 [SPEAKER_01]: It says the sun was down and a cool pale evening was quietly fading into night. 19:59.437 --> 20:06.346 [SPEAKER_01]: He walked home under the early stars through Hobbiton and up the hill, whistling softly and thoughtfully. 20:06.787 --> 20:12.014 [SPEAKER_01]: And again, another depiction of the stars, which we know, are associated with the elves. 20:12.295 --> 20:21.227 [SPEAKER_01]: So even though we've just really met Sam for the first time, we have a very strong sense of what he represents and who he is. 20:21.815 --> 20:23.358 [SPEAKER_01]: But then things change. 20:23.778 --> 20:28.887 [SPEAKER_01]: We shift to Gandalf reappearing for the first time in a while. 20:29.288 --> 20:39.165 [SPEAKER_01]: We're told that for three years after the party he had been away, and then he visited Frodo a few brief times and then during the next year or two, he turned up fairly often. 20:39.145 --> 20:46.099 [SPEAKER_01]: Coming mostly unexpected, he was kind of sneaking in in the shire, and now he's being a little bit shady here. 20:46.680 --> 20:52.250 [SPEAKER_01]: But we understand this because he's paying attention to Frodo, and Gandalf is a busy person. 20:52.331 --> 20:58.723 [SPEAKER_01]: He has to leave in ten to other things, but he has made a point to return numerous times. 20:58.703 --> 21:04.914 [SPEAKER_01]: Without warning, and specifically, he's interested about Frodo's health and doings. 21:05.455 --> 21:15.412 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, we of course understand why this is because the ring is corruptive and we'll do terrible things to Frodo, and he's been looking for evidence to prove that this might be the case. 21:15.893 --> 21:23.867 [SPEAKER_01]: So, Gandalf returns now after nine years, he's been doing more work away, not visiting the Shire. 21:23.847 --> 21:26.613 [SPEAKER_01]: And he shows up with a tap on the study window. 21:26.693 --> 21:34.308 [SPEAKER_01]: Again, secretly and quietly coming to visit Frodo, so as not to arouse suspicions of the hobbits, and he's not doing this in a sinister way. 21:34.729 --> 21:39.679 [SPEAKER_01]: He's actually protecting Frodo because he doesn't want to bring more attention to him. 21:39.659 --> 21:42.864 [SPEAKER_01]: And Frodo welcomes him in, and of course he's delighted to see an old friend. 21:43.425 --> 21:47.351 [SPEAKER_01]: And Gandalf says, Oh, well, eh, you look the same as ever, Frodo. 21:47.912 --> 21:49.855 [SPEAKER_01]: With an exclamation mark at the end. 21:50.015 --> 21:53.300 [SPEAKER_01]: And Gandalf here is now worried. 21:53.661 --> 21:57.246 [SPEAKER_01]: It has been nine more years, and he doesn't look any older. 21:57.226 --> 22:04.218 [SPEAKER_01]: And Frodo politely responds, so do you, but we're told that he secretly thinks Gandalf looks older and more care-worn. 22:04.278 --> 22:08.586 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, this is one of our first hints that Gandalf is concerned. 22:08.706 --> 22:10.208 [SPEAKER_01]: He has been stressed. 22:10.749 --> 22:15.918 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, we just heard about the world out there getting worse and darker, so maybe it has something to do with that. 22:16.059 --> 22:18.763 [SPEAKER_01]: But that's a secondary concern to something else that's going on. 22:19.064 --> 22:22.710 [SPEAKER_01]: Also, it shows that Gandalf can age. 22:22.690 --> 22:26.375 [SPEAKER_01]: He can look older, or at least appear to age. 22:26.595 --> 22:29.059 [SPEAKER_01]: He can look tired and stressed out. 22:29.239 --> 22:31.983 [SPEAKER_01]: Because again, he's in a physical body. 22:32.263 --> 22:36.149 [SPEAKER_01]: The body does respond to stresses in the world around it. 22:36.409 --> 22:40.435 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, Fredo asks about news about what's going on out there in the wider world. 22:40.515 --> 22:42.077 [SPEAKER_01]: And they stay up and talk for a long time. 22:42.097 --> 22:42.658 [SPEAKER_01]: And it makes sense. 22:42.678 --> 22:46.403 [SPEAKER_01]: Fredo is more interested in this than any of the other Hobbits. 22:46.383 --> 22:55.775 [SPEAKER_01]: But then Frodo and Gandalf, and it says here, the next morning, Adelaide breakfast, the wizard was sitting with Frodo by the open window of the study. 22:55.795 --> 22:56.796 [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't say Gandalf. 22:57.277 --> 22:59.780 [SPEAKER_01]: He is now in the role of wizard. 23:00.280 --> 23:01.762 [SPEAKER_01]: And Tolkien seems to do this. 23:01.822 --> 23:13.757 [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes he will call a character by their name, but then sometimes he will call the character by their title, because in that section of the book, they're acting more as that title than they are as the person Gandalf. 23:13.737 --> 23:24.615 [SPEAKER_01]: And we're told here that the sun was warm, the wind was in the south, everything looked fresh and the new green of spring was shimmering in the fields and on the tips of the trees fingers. 23:24.815 --> 23:25.617 [SPEAKER_01]: Now this is interesting. 23:25.657 --> 23:31.847 [SPEAKER_01]: He doesn't describe a late, coming spring is not particularly cold for April. 23:31.827 --> 23:33.810 [SPEAKER_01]: it's actually warm and it's getting warmer. 23:34.311 --> 23:40.740 [SPEAKER_01]: So there's a sense here that hope is being brought to this conversation even though the conversation is dark and dire. 23:41.160 --> 23:53.518 [SPEAKER_01]: And more obviously, Tolkien points out that Gandalf is thinking 80 years previous to when he and Bilba went off on their adventure and he's remembering that he again looked younger back then. 23:53.558 --> 23:59.927 [SPEAKER_01]: So we just talked about his 23:59.907 --> 24:03.934 [SPEAKER_01]: And yet, in just the last 80 years, he seems to have aged considerably. 24:04.435 --> 24:09.343 [SPEAKER_01]: He's carrying more concerns and worries than he has in a long time. 24:09.704 --> 24:14.592 [SPEAKER_01]: So they're there blowing smoke rings, which of course is not supposed to be something negative. 24:14.772 --> 24:18.118 [SPEAKER_01]: And Tolkien's world, he didn't even understand when he wrote this. 24:18.098 --> 24:20.042 [SPEAKER_01]: that smoking had health problems. 24:20.102 --> 24:21.505 [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, they thought it was a healthy thing. 24:21.525 --> 24:28.900 [SPEAKER_01]: I've discussed this before, but it's also a thing of comfort and kind of a hobby to blow the smoke rings with your friends and to sit and have a smoke. 24:29.300 --> 24:34.150 [SPEAKER_01]: It's considered relaxing, friendly, warm, that sort of thing. 24:34.130 --> 24:39.215 [SPEAKER_01]: And they're sitting there doing this in silence, both deep and thought, just enjoying each other's company. 24:39.235 --> 24:41.498 [SPEAKER_01]: But then, Frodo breaks the silence. 24:42.218 --> 24:51.848 [SPEAKER_01]: And he says, last night you began to tell me strange things about my ring Gandalf, and then you stopped, because you said that such matters were best left until daylight. 24:52.429 --> 24:53.891 [SPEAKER_01]: Don't you think you would better finish now? 24:54.511 --> 24:58.095 [SPEAKER_01]: You said the ring was dangerous, far more dangerous than I guess. 24:58.345 --> 25:05.520 [SPEAKER_01]: And while way, and I love that Gandalf is kind of superstitious in the way that he addresses things sometimes. 25:05.560 --> 25:13.738 [SPEAKER_01]: Like he will not talk about dark things at certain times in the story because in this case it's nighttime, but there are other times in the story where he does this too. 25:13.718 --> 25:22.053 [SPEAKER_01]: And this implies that there is a sense of more holy and more evil moments or places times of the day. 25:22.093 --> 25:30.047 [SPEAKER_01]: The sunlight itself brings something positive and warm, whereas sometimes in the darkness of night you don't want to discuss evil things. 25:30.348 --> 25:32.191 [SPEAKER_01]: He does this with the language of more door. 25:32.592 --> 25:37.060 [SPEAKER_01]: There are certain things that you do not want to speak out loud, especially at certain times or places. 25:37.040 --> 25:54.885 [SPEAKER_01]: This implies a spiritual type of awareness of the world that a lot of the other characters don't really have, but it also implies a power of words and how bringing words and ideas into a situation can absolutely change the way that situation feels. 25:55.366 --> 26:05.460 [SPEAKER_01]: Almost like words themselves are magic because they change the state of the world around you, especially in the minds of the people who hear those words. 26:05.440 --> 26:11.388 [SPEAKER_01]: Hulking value to language and words in particular for their power, and so does Gandalf. 26:11.808 --> 26:15.533 [SPEAKER_01]: So we're not going to get through the whole conversation, but this section of the conversation goes like this. 26:16.094 --> 26:17.476 [SPEAKER_01]: In many ways, answer the wizard. 26:17.616 --> 26:20.941 [SPEAKER_01]: It is far more powerful than I ever dared to think at first. 26:21.421 --> 26:26.488 [SPEAKER_01]: So powerful that in the end it would utterly overcome any one of mortal race who possessed it. 26:27.029 --> 26:28.731 [SPEAKER_01]: It would possess him. 26:28.711 --> 26:36.780 [SPEAKER_01]: In a region long ago, many Elven rings were made, and this is where we get our first glimpse of the history and lore of the rings. 26:37.500 --> 26:43.126 [SPEAKER_01]: Magic rings, as you call them, and they were, of course, of various kinds, some more potent and some less. 26:43.487 --> 26:52.797 [SPEAKER_01]: So this explains the idea that there are many magic rings out there, and none of them are particularly safe, and he's not necessarily referring to the rings of power. 26:53.297 --> 26:55.039 [SPEAKER_01]: Those are the culmination. 26:55.019 --> 27:02.151 [SPEAKER_01]: of elves experimenting with this type of magic, but that means that there are a bunch of other minor rings out there that do more subtle things. 27:02.792 --> 27:10.024 [SPEAKER_01]: He says the lesser rings were only essays in the craft before it was full grown, notice he uses essays to mean like trials. 27:10.765 --> 27:16.875 [SPEAKER_01]: And to the Elven Smiths they were, but trifles, it's still to my mind, dangerous for mortals. 27:16.855 --> 27:21.500 [SPEAKER_01]: But the great rings, the rings of power in all caps, they were perilous. 27:22.181 --> 27:29.049 [SPEAKER_01]: A mortal Frodo, who keeps one of the great rings does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life. 27:29.069 --> 27:33.554 [SPEAKER_01]: He merely continues until at last every minute is awareness. 27:34.015 --> 27:38.560 [SPEAKER_01]: And if he often uses the ring to make himself invisible, he fades. 27:38.540 --> 27:47.598 [SPEAKER_01]: He becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the rings. 27:48.078 --> 28:01.324 [SPEAKER_01]: Now much of this is very well understood by all of us, and I'm not going to recap it all here, but you can clearly see that this is the moment in the story where Gandalf spells out exactly what is going on. 28:01.304 --> 28:05.390 [SPEAKER_01]: This ring is ultimately controlled by some sort of dark power. 28:05.791 --> 28:09.797 [SPEAKER_01]: We know that's Sauron, and if you use it, it will be bad. 28:10.218 --> 28:25.101 [SPEAKER_01]: You will fade and fade where, well, into this twilight, another place, a darker realm, something else other than what's here and now, the world that mortals interact with, 28:25.992 --> 28:37.189 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, sooner or later, later if he is strong and well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last, sooner or later the dark power will devour him. 28:37.710 --> 28:41.876 [SPEAKER_01]: This is the line that sets up so much of what happens in the story. 28:42.317 --> 28:53.974 [SPEAKER_01]: Great and powerful people who believe that they can control and wield the ring, and Gandalf has defined it in this moment at the beginning of the story as being not possible. 28:53.954 --> 29:01.825 [SPEAKER_01]: It is impossible for anybody to ever wield the ring without eventually being corrupted and consumed by it. 29:02.225 --> 29:12.699 [SPEAKER_01]: There is no ambiguity here, and Frodo's response to this, how terrifying, said Frodo, and interestingly enough, another character shows up. 29:13.140 --> 29:18.006 [SPEAKER_01]: Someone who we just found out was very interested in what's going on in the wider world. 29:18.707 --> 29:20.670 [SPEAKER_01]: There was another long silence. 29:21.359 --> 29:33.765 [SPEAKER_01]: The sound of Sam Gamgee, cutting the lawn, came in from the garden. 29:41.272 --> 29:42.334 [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for tuning in again. 29:42.374 --> 29:51.707 [SPEAKER_01]: If you haven't checked out my other show, Retro Recall, where we talk about Retro Video Games and you're into a bunch of games that came out in the 80s and 90s, then check it out. 29:51.867 --> 29:59.719 [SPEAKER_01]: My friend John and I go over and actually play games for the first time in like 30 years that we haven't touched and reminisce and have all the nostalgia for that time period. 29:59.739 --> 30:01.521 [SPEAKER_01]: So if that's something you're into, go check it out. 30:01.681 --> 30:04.225 [SPEAKER_01]: Retro Recall, the video game nostalgia podcast. 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Thank you so much for your support. 31:06.687 --> 31:08.929 [SPEAKER_01]: And also, you can leave a 5 star review on Apple Podcast. 31:08.949 --> 31:10.611 [SPEAKER_01]: You can comment on these episodes. 31:10.631 --> 31:11.512 [SPEAKER_01]: You can share it with your friends. 31:11.592 --> 31:12.813 [SPEAKER_01]: All of that stuff is super helpful. 31:13.133 --> 31:18.038 [SPEAKER_01]: If you do leave a 5 star review on Apple, I will read it out on a few trips out, but I don't have any new ones this week. 31:18.418 --> 31:19.800 [SPEAKER_01]: So, nothing to read there. 31:19.840 --> 31:23.143 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you again for being here and supporting the show and keeping it going. 31:23.603 --> 31:24.965 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to go do a bonus episode. 31:25.205 --> 31:27.267 [SPEAKER_01]: So, if you're one of the patrons, I'll see you over there. 31:27.247 --> 31:33.593 [SPEAKER_01]: Have a wonderful rest of your week, and when a good friend has to tell you some news you don't want to believe, be a Frodo. 31:33.955 --> 31:34.919 [SPEAKER_01]: Don't be a Ted. 31:35.602 --> 31:36.666 [SPEAKER_01]: Alright, see you next time. 31:40.814 --> 31:42.937 [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for listening to the Lord of the Rings lorecast. 31:43.577 --> 31:47.121 [SPEAKER_01]: If you'd like to learn more about other fantasy worlds, check out my other podcasts. 31:47.562 --> 31:51.867 [SPEAKER_01]: The Elder Scrolls lorecast, the Witcher lorecast, and more at robotsradio.net. 31:52.328 --> 31:54.170 [SPEAKER_01]: If you'd like to reach out, I'd love to hear from you. 31:54.670 --> 32:01.278 [SPEAKER_01]: Send me a note on Twitter at robots underscore radio, or join our amazing community on the robots radio discord. 32:01.679 --> 32:07.626 [SPEAKER_01]: There are links in the show notes, or just search robotsradio discord, or find the link on robotsradio.net. 32:07.646 --> 32:08.627 [SPEAKER_01]: I'll see you next time.