[SPEAKER_01]: Hello everybody, welcome back to the NoBad Dog's podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: This dog owner has a dog that winds consistently and it is very frustrating and it sounds like it's pretty annoying for the owners and they've tried a lot of different things, different trainers, different approaches, different methods and they can't figure out why their dog is continuing to wind and how to try to minimalize the winding or stop it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, as always, in most podcasts that we do, we don't just go over a cheap one-liner to say, hey, do this and get rid of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I like to really explain to people why this is actually happening, that way the dog owner has a fair shot to really help this dog overcome this, what we want to call anxiety or just overstimulation or whatever we want to call it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so,
[SPEAKER_01]: We really break through and break down all the different things of why dogs get overly stimulated and isn't even possible or realistic or fair to tell a dog they can't be whining.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's what this whole podcast is about from one of my clients in Germany.
[SPEAKER_01]: So thank you so much for listening guys and really quick.
[SPEAKER_01]: This episode is brought to you by my friends over at WiiFeed RAW.
[SPEAKER_01]: You guys hear me talk about RAW food all the time and the different nutritional values that it has being not ultra processed like some of the kibble.
[SPEAKER_01]: that most people feed.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you guys are interested and we feed raw, you guys can say 50% off your first order by clicking the link in the description and have fun today, whatever you're doing, be safe and enjoy the podcast.
[SPEAKER_02]: I hope you can help us with a little problem.
[SPEAKER_02]: We haven't
[SPEAKER_02]: I would say it's a rousal base.
[SPEAKER_02]: So he's super friendly with other dogs with people.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's I would say he's a bit too friendly, maybe.
[SPEAKER_02]: He wants to play with every dog and he gets super aroused when he, for example, when he meets a dog for the first time and maybe we allowed him to play or whatever and he meets the dog for the second time.
[SPEAKER_02]: then it's super hard for him to kind of keep his chill.
[SPEAKER_02]: He starts whining and pulling into the leash and stuff like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And normally he sees very well behaved.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sorry, he has his obedient style in.
[SPEAKER_02]: He has his, I can say down and he will lay there for an hour or so, he will not stand up.
[SPEAKER_02]: This works pretty good, but as soon as there's something that kind of, it's hard to explain, it's like a switch in his head and then he kind of snaps out and it's hard to get his attention back and then he starts to wind and he kind of escalates in this winding and he used to bark, but he stopped, I don't know why, but now he he he winds it's just that
[SPEAKER_02]: This constant winding and I can say, for example, leave it and correct them with the color, but then he stops for five seconds and then he starts again.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I don't know if I have to correct it more or if this makes it worse, so I'm a bit lost there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so just to clarify.
[SPEAKER_01]: And typically, you know, somebody says that they need help.
[SPEAKER_01]: The first two things that don't come out of their mouth are they're good with dogs and they're good with people.
[SPEAKER_01]: Usually it's usually it's not, you're super friendly.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, good, good.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I would just say, is he fixed?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no, no.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, and did the, did the stimulation and the excitement and the vocalization has that always been since,
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we we got him when he was eight weeks old.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And he's my first dog.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I had no experience prior.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I watched your videos and other trainers videos and I tried to prepare pretty good.
[SPEAKER_02]: But as you may know, in Germany, it's dog training is a bit.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it was super hard for me to find a good
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe puppy school or with every where it's not just playing playing playing so a bit of both a bit of training a bit of playing and so and the the school I choose I think was not good and I think they kind of.
[SPEAKER_02]: reinforced this reactivity in him because we at the beginning we were in a circle and everyone had their dog and he he just started barking and barking and lunging and lunging and they just told me Yeah, you just chill he will he will stop eventually but he never stopped so and and I kept going there for about four weeks and it he never stopped and then we switched to
[SPEAKER_02]: to other trainers and one in person, they came to us and trained with us and it was a bit better, but I think now it's getting worse again.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was like this and this and now it's getting a bit worse again.
[SPEAKER_02]: But he stopped the barking and lunging so that's it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it could it could also play into that to like letting him because because a lot of times like imprinting for puppies is really important when they're young and you know just like with kids are job is to tell them.
[SPEAKER_01]: how we live and what's appropriate and what is it and so if we allow them to get excited like the excited part isn't going to go away or anything like that but if we if we allow it to happen and we and we don't do anything about it and we're just almost innate like gaslighting them a little bit where it's like yeah we're going to allow you to do this but we really don't want you to do this and then so now you're at a point where is a year and a half and now so I'm not just saying that that's the only reason why it's happening but it definitely didn't help
[SPEAKER_01]: that, and the beginning, we allowed this behavior to happen and we just kind of turned her head and like, oh, okay, let's just wait for it to settle down.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, it's, it's, could it have settled down maybe, but still at the same time you really want to address those things in the beginning when there are puppies.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's neither here or there.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would say moving forward.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a couple of things to mention, Australian shepherds are vocal dogs.
[SPEAKER_01]: They could yep and yep and stuff but we're getting a wine right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: They also from my experience here in the States.
[SPEAKER_01]: We see a lot of shepherds just having xiety, Australian shepherds just having xiety, so they're always kind of like, percolating, they're always sitting at that red line, like, constantly, like, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, so that is, I don't want to say that's breed standard, but it wouldn't, like, if you brought the dog into me, and you said, hey, this is how he is, is baseline, I would say that doesn't surprise me, it's something I've seen quite a bit with Aussies.
[SPEAKER_01]: So a couple of things, like, I would be, first line of defense that I would be outletting and redirecting.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what that would mean is the dog is actively saying, like, hey, I need something to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, there's something like the dog is actively thinking, rather it's, so the external whining is either the dog going, I want to go do something or something's happening and I don't
[SPEAKER_01]: And those are two typically of like the external winding from this context, which is the dog's going, you know, are we going to go do the thing?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it going to happen?
[SPEAKER_01]: Are we at the place?
[SPEAKER_01]: Are we going to, can I go say hi?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like there's that or they're watching something happening, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So they see a dog playing or they see somebody they know or whatever or they see a pond and they, whatever, they're just like on this.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, a lot of times what I do is the dog is exhibiting behavior such as, I want to do something, so what I like to do is give them something else to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's outletting, it's not fixing, so that means, again, like a kid is going crazy running around the house and we say, hey, here's a puzzle or hey, here's a brain game or something.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's
[SPEAKER_01]: it's not going to take away that Australian shepherd vibe of like energy, you know, especially year-and-a-half intact, the dog is in his prime, you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: What's his name?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is she a male?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it a male or female?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it a male?
[SPEAKER_00]: Shira, spell it.
[SPEAKER_00]: and S-H-I-R-O.
[SPEAKER_01]: S-H-I-R-O, Shiro.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: So how would you say the high-sensee honed?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, how would you say in the German, what's your dog's name?
[SPEAKER_01]: Cause the classsy?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: V-H-S-Dine honed.
[SPEAKER_00]: So like V-H-S-Dine honed.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, just curious.
[UNKNOWN]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Outletting is a, is a first line of defense for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: The dog's going, hey, I'm freaking bored dude, like I am losing my mind.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I would say, okay, let's give you a fair shot.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would be outletting.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's the first thing I would be doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: When the dog is whining, is it, give me the context.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it just unleash outside or is it all the time?
[SPEAKER_02]: I can, I can give you a few examples.
[SPEAKER_02]: For example, if yesterday, my wife works at the place where, um, there is a
[SPEAKER_02]: indoor pool, and it's a, how do you call it?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a clinic for physical therapy dog, but for dogs.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Cool.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's a pool.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the dogs can swim in the pool, so they go into the pool with the dogs, and then they can do the exercises.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we took, yesterday we took him with us, and there were a few other dogs, and
[SPEAKER_02]: They played and then they did their stuff in the pool and then they played again and then I told him to come to me and to go in a downstairs and then he went mayhem was not lining because he wanted to play but he played for 24 minutes and that's enough now, but I could not get him to because he's in this state.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's super stressful for him.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just want to know how to get him to to understand.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, buddy, it's enough now.
[SPEAKER_01]: Great.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's really good information.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because that answers two of the questions I typically have when I go down this line is like I said.
[SPEAKER_01]: So again, he goes, I want to go do something.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's that what we addressed.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then also if he's got an ample amount of stimulation, or I'm sorry, exertion, or he's gotten it out, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And he still is doing it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's that like line of,
[SPEAKER_01]: involuntary and also just kind of be in a jerk, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like misbehaving being bratty.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's the I can't help it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then there's the now I'm just kind of being a brat, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So, and that was my next question is, is how do you feel like that's coming out?
[SPEAKER_01]: So, if that's the context, then when you're correcting with the leash, what are you using and how are you doing it?
[SPEAKER_02]: In Germany, we can't work with tools, but you can buy them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's kind of like, you can't use these, but you could buy them.
[SPEAKER_01]: But also, you know, it's kind of like the meat.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe I bought one?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, maybe.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I give them a leave it and a pop with the color.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't know if he's, how do you call desensitized to it?
[SPEAKER_02]: not getting the the correct momentum.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a great question.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're right to go down that line.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's it's tough with dogs like this because again, it's it's they wear their heart on their sleeve if you will.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they their brain goes, oh, fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then they just go into this like,
[SPEAKER_01]: Like it's it's again, I like to say it's involuntary.
[SPEAKER_01]: They can't help it.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's like a It's like a bloodhound tracking something.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're just like, I'm almost there.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is exciting.
[SPEAKER_01]: So again, you have to have this Reality and this fairness to this approach where you go, okay So we go to the we go to like the dog the dog area the dog park whatever the dog swimming around having to have it a great time
[SPEAKER_01]: And then, you know, it's same thing with kids, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, the cinnamon vision, it's like, we get it's time to go home after they've just played for an hour and then they throw a fit.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, hey, this isn't fair.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I've given you like a good amount of time to have fun with your friends, you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: So now we need to behave ourselves.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, it's only fair that it's that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, and that's where you have to have this fine line of, so you could correct the dog and to your point, the de-sensitization could have happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: there's there's movements that you should be that I would be doing to so instead of like putting the dog into a down and then him watching the the fun stuff I would be moving the turning the dog away stuff like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the thing he keeps he keeps when I put him in the down and he wants to spin in that direction and he he really um
[SPEAKER_02]: It's nice to me to get in the position that you can see everything and it's kind of a bit of a hospital with them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so what I would do is go back to the drawing board at home and work on specifically either a down or a sit that will hold the dog in a position that will not allow him to whip around, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: In real time with the with the dogs running around, you would be practicing the Sit and the and or the down with him not being able to to whip around.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you got to clear up the expectations because right now if you put him into a sit and then he kind of like tip toes around to look behind him.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's like, Oh, I'm still in a sit, but you know or in a down like if you put him into a down and he kind of
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, 360s around or whatever 180s, you know, it's tough to define those lines, so that's what I would be doing at home.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a couple things.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the first thing I would be doing is putting him into a position that will help him deactivate a little bit, but the reality is, if he's like so worked up.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's not the best place to be practicing these things, but I would be, here's what I would do, is I would get a, I would column over, I'd walk out of the situation, rather that's out of the building or 20 feet away from the dog's plane or whatever, I would just walk out of the situation, and I would practice some of the obedience, I would do a tune up, and I would do a tune up, and I would do a tune up, and I would do a tune up, and I would do a tune up, and I would do a tune up, and I would do a tune up, and I would do a tune up, and I would do a tune up, and I would do a tune up, and I would do a tune up, and I would do a tune up, and I would do a tune up, and I would do a tune up, and I would do a tune up, and I would do a tune up, and I would do a tune up, and I would do a
[SPEAKER_01]: So a tune-up is, do you know what that is?
[SPEAKER_01]: Have you heard me talk about that before?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, they're just kind of going back and forth, getting the dogs engagement.
[SPEAKER_01]: So right now it's like, hey, we're going to leave the park.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but I was having, but look at them, they're happy.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can go back like, and so you get them out of that state of mind.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he's kind of like, well, man, you know, and he's frustrated, probably.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so then you do a tune-up to get the dogs attention.
[SPEAKER_01]: So back and forth.
[SPEAKER_01]: So dog come every turn.
[SPEAKER_01]: So dog or dog with me.
[SPEAKER_01]: So every turn every time you turn, Shiro, let's go or something.
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't do like a full recall that wouldn't make sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just like, hey, we're going this way.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's go.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if he doesn't, just a quick pop.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what this will do is it will hold him accountable fairly.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you say, hey, I'm going this way.
[SPEAKER_01]: You need to come with me pay attention and he's like, yeah, but there's a correction.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you do it again.
[SPEAKER_01]: So then he goes, okay, fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: He comes over and then you do it again.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that'll create some good engagement.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that'll also set the tone and set the standard for.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is what I want you to do that you got to pay attention to me unless there's consequences So it kind of gets him into shape has he have you done Kind of piggybacking on outletting does what do you see like to do like tiger food?
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm both I would say both.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's pretty food driving and he got one special toy.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's pretty Pretty excited about that
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so things that I would be doing to give him a fair chance like because the reality is is we're going to go into this the dog is going to get to like that level 10 because that's just who he is this personality and you want to decrease that and so when he gets to that 10 we want to push it towards something productive.
[SPEAKER_01]: So taking that like level 10 and then pushing it towards something productive, then also being able to fairly correct him as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, so in a way that makes sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: So anyway, so we get to a point where we're doing our tuneups, I would be at that point, like if you're going out for a training session, I would keep him hungry.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if I know I'm going to go out, I wouldn't feed him breakfast or dinner, I would keep him keep him.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would definitely have like food ready for him and I would be prepared to like pay him and play with him and have fun and just really make you really engaging.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you really want him to pay all man.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you're just like, hey, I'm cool too.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you don't have to go play with the dogs all the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you can play with me and we can have fun as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so you're really trying to just steal that drive and steal that momentum.
[SPEAKER_01]: Does that make sense?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, again, I'm just going to run you through what I would be doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can cherry pick what you think is going to be helpful or applicable, but I would be food luring.
[SPEAKER_01]: So having him, you know, take the food and taking it away and having him come after it and really like kind of agitating him and frustrating him and really just make him drive into you.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then slowly but surely I would work towards those environments in which he gets really overstimulated in whatever that is You can decide but you don't want to go jump right into it like you don't want to go from Hot to cold right it's going to be very difficult
[SPEAKER_01]: I would try to warm that up a little bit.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, we're outside.
[SPEAKER_01]: Pay attention to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I got some good shit going on.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's do this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you start kind of blending into that environment where maybe other dogs are playing or there's something stimulating out there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you kind of pop them back out.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you're blending this in a little bit.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I would be doing that, and that just gives him an opportunity to outlet with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: He goes, hey, I need to do something, I want to work, I want to play, I want to get my mind chewing on something, and then you say, hey, let's do this, let's do talk, let's do play, let's do obedience, hear some food, he's chasing that around, scatter feeding, crumbling up some cable thrown it on the ground, making him search for stuff, because ultimately what he's doing is he's like a pressure cooker.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, a verbal pressure cooker, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So so as soon as he sees something that he wants to do, he's going to be sitting there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, and then it's just going to start steaming out right.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's just is and it's just going to vocalize like and so that's very Again, it could be neurotic behavior could be genetics could be black of outletting could be a magnitude of things.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know you might not know, but
[SPEAKER_01]: the idea would be, okay, give him a fair shot from what we're seeing.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, given him an outlet, and then once you do that, what I would like to do is like really weigh in and on your on your obedience.
[SPEAKER_01]: So instead of just correcting him for whining, we'd be correcting him for not doing something, so that's where if we ask him to down or we ask him to sit,
[SPEAKER_01]: And he doesn't, we would correct him, but the context and the behaviors would be to our advantage.
[SPEAKER_01]: So again, when we're working on this, when I tell you to sit, we're not spinning.
[SPEAKER_01]: When I tell you to down, we're not spinning.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that means we put him in a sit, we throw a ball behind him, we throw food behind him.
[SPEAKER_01]: The thing that he wants goes behind him, but he can't move.
[SPEAKER_01]: Those are things he would work on in practice, because that's what you would copy and paste in reality.
[SPEAKER_01]: Does that make sense?
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you're your pressure testing for reality.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you get to the fun park wherever that is, you recall them and you either are trying to leave or you put them into a down away from that, he's been trained that he can't flip around.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like he may be able to look, but he's not going to turn his whole body.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you have to just go through the motions of finding out what's appropriate and what isn't.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, those are the things I would start doing is your dog's board and he wants something to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, when he sees fun, he goes, I gotta go do that because I've been board all day.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I, you know, whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's like the first line of defense, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Somebody calls me, say, my car won't start, it's like, you put gas in it, it's like
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, no.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, okay, well, let's start there.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's like the lowest hanging fruit.
[SPEAKER_01]: So outletting, having fun, engagement, and the hopes would be the dog goes, I have all this energy, I have all this drive, you're providing me with enough outlet.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just gonna put all that energy into you.
[SPEAKER_01]: and then that could reduce the oh I want to go I want to go because that's what it is is the dog sees something he goes I want to go do this I want to go do this so you almost like make him tired to a point where he's fulfilled and he's not as eager to want to go and run around with his head cut off and then you would work on particular behaviors that are going to help you in this situation so you can correct him fairly and
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, if you put him into a sit, he still might hear smell and even turn his head but still remain facing his body, so then you're like, oh shit, you know, that's, you know, then it just becomes very opportunistic, you know, so I really would go through the situation with clarity of what's appropriate and what isn't.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he doesn't.
[SPEAKER_01]: He gets corrected.
[SPEAKER_01]: You would copy and paste that in that environment.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that way because because really he's got to pay attention to you in order for not in order to not be in trouble.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because if he's not paying attention, he's going to get corrected because he's got to follow your body.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's just again something I would start doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then you could start correcting for the whining.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it'll go one way or the, uh, yeah, one way or the other.
[SPEAKER_01]: It'll either go
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm too much of a like spas to cope with this and I know what I'm doing is I know you said leave it or you said no and I'm not supposed to do this but I just can't deal with it and that could be possible.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, but, but the other, the other chance is getting into that situation and asking the dog to focus on you, asking the dog to leave it, telling the dog to stop.
[SPEAKER_01]: So sometimes when a dog is so like worked up, again, it comes first from the eyes, really, like they see something and they go, oh, that's, that's, that's,
[SPEAKER_01]: and they start getting worked up.
[SPEAKER_01]: So sometimes what I'll do is I'll ask a dog to focus and then I'll pay the dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: Focus, pay the dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's totally appropriate for you to correct the dog when he does work up.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I think that that's fair to do at this point.
[SPEAKER_02]: When you're doing it, does he just completely
[SPEAKER_02]: 10 seconds or so and then he starts again.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, but it, he has, he has a, he has a lining baseline.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's not after a correction.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not getting worse.
[SPEAKER_02]: He just has his, his base level lining.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he just builds back up.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, right.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then he just goes back out.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's it.
[SPEAKER_01]: That I would work on that timing.
[SPEAKER_01]: So for me, it would be trying to teach him, like desperately trying to teach him, the correction came from the accumulation of wine in.
[SPEAKER_01]: So right now he may be confused and why he's getting corrected.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think that that's the problem.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's not understanding why he gets corrected.
[SPEAKER_01]: right because in the reason why I would agree with that is because he's if you corrected him while he's winding and he stopped but then he worked himself back up again there is a reasonable chance that he doesn't know why he's getting like if the correction was enough for him to go oh okay I'm sorry I don't do that but then he's like put wait why did I why did that happen
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he works himself back up and then he gets correct it again.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like almost this loop and he doesn't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what I would do is, you know, put a word on it, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So leave it or no, whatever you want to say, nine, whenever he works himself up, you would do your, what I call a negative correct, or I'm sorry, a verbal correction, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So it would be no.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then if he didn't stop, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So he's whining, no, he stopped.
[SPEAKER_01]: good so here's what you could be missing and you correct me from wrong when when he does stop it's imperative for you to be able to like heavily pay him like good like just good whatever the word is good no good leave it whatever that word is for you it would be good leave it and then I would break out like literally physically break him out one way and then revisit
[SPEAKER_01]: So your goal right now is to build out the duration and which the dog doesn't wind for him to really conceptualize this.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what I would like to do is I, for an example, I come up, right, and I'm, and I have him and he's not whining yet.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I was sit, puts his butt in the ground, good sit bang, he gets paid.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's like, oh, I love this food, right, whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he sees his buddy's plan and he'll be his ears perks up.
[SPEAKER_01]: It goes on and he starts whining.
[SPEAKER_01]: It would be Shall I believe it and then if he did good leave it pay pay pay break out?
[SPEAKER_01]: So what that does is You're teaching him very clearly
[SPEAKER_01]: when he winds and he stops he gets paid but then you're also taking the stress out of him right now so it's basically like teaching teaching a kid at a right of bike right so he goes from a to b and it's like three feet oh yay you stop you take a breath put your feet down relax so you're giving him an opportunity to reset let's do it again let's do it again and pretty soon he's going to be riding from a to b and it's going to be 50 feet 100 feet and then he's just
[SPEAKER_01]: and you're building out for him the duration in which he's whining.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you're trying to make it really clear for him that whining bad, not whining good.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so if he does whine through the leave it to your verbal correction,
[SPEAKER_01]: then you would enforce it with a correction.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he's whining, you're correcting me stops.
[SPEAKER_01]: Good leave it and you're paying him and you're paying him and then you and then I would even then break him out physically.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, break, shake it off.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's reset.
[SPEAKER_01]: You come out.
[SPEAKER_01]: Here's the important thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: You have to if he doesn't know that he's getting corrected for the whining, you almost have and I don't know how much dog training research you've done, but you almost have to free shape.
[SPEAKER_01]: not whining.
[SPEAKER_01]: So do you know what free shaping is?
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you come out, you sit in the same location in which he just wind and he doesn't do anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, goodly.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you just immediately just start paying up.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you have to make the thing that he doesn't.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if he's unsure of why he's getting corrected, we need to be very sure of why he isn't getting corrected if that makes sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when you come up to a situation and he's good, pay him, boom, boom, boom, boom,
[SPEAKER_01]: And then when he starts again, you just, everything turns off, boom, correction.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Does that make sense?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was afraid because his whining starts again pretty quickly.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was afraid that with the pain, I'm reinforcing the whining instead of the pain for the not whining, you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think that's maybe just a timing issue on my side.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what I'm saying is you, you have to really,
[SPEAKER_01]: because right now he's gone I don't I don't know what the game is right now and you're basically well you're losing and he's like help you know so so it's this really kind of stressful thing because he keeps kind of crossing that line and he doesn't realize that he's not supposed to and then you're corrected and he's like oh shit that suck and this is like where the conversation always comes up right especially in countries like yours where people are like oh correcting a dog can confuse him and make things worse and it's like
[SPEAKER_01]: There's very small examples of that being true, and this is part of that, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: This is that conversation where if he actually doesn't know why he's getting corrected, then he just is like, I'm, so I'm getting punished for standing here with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is weird, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So, so that's where you have to come in and really like sugar coat, like, good, good, yes, good.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I am, I am breadcrumbing them along, like,
[SPEAKER_01]: the moment I enter an environment where we're not whining or even after the correction we stop whining.
[SPEAKER_01]: So whine, whine, whine, correction, leave it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Boom.
[SPEAKER_01]: Good.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm just like, I am so desperate for them to understand this is the behavior that gets you rewarded.
[SPEAKER_01]: And pretty soon, especially a dog like that, they'll catch on pretty quickly.
[SPEAKER_01]: But you have to be so people miss the payment people just forget the payment.
[SPEAKER_01]: They just wait for the dog to do something bad.
[SPEAKER_01]: They correct it in the dog's like So then they don't have an opportunity.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, they don't have an opportunity to really
[SPEAKER_01]: uh... catch on to what the good shit is like they don't what am i supposed to do then you know i don't i don't i don't understand so you're really layering that on like good good good and a lot of times what i do is if you feel like you're getting uh... you're getting the the the whining comes on too quick where you don't have an opportunity to really
[SPEAKER_01]: capture something like this is good.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then again, you have to give yourself distance.
[SPEAKER_01]: You have to go further away from the distraction.
[SPEAKER_01]: So again, let's say the park is the big wine industry action.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you would work all away from the park and you would do all.
[SPEAKER_01]: I always try to tell clients you're almost trying to make the dog feel silly for doing what they're doing like what's the deal like when dogs are reactive and you're just standing there like holding the leash like yawning like what are we doing like this is ridiculous So you start really far away and you make it the best experience ever
[SPEAKER_01]: Good, good focus.
[SPEAKER_01]: Good heal.
[SPEAKER_01]: Good leave it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So again, you throw treats on the ground.
[SPEAKER_01]: Leave it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_01]: Got it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Good.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you're really just like, this is how we do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is great.
[SPEAKER_01]: Awesome.
[SPEAKER_01]: Great job.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well done.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're like, wow, this is great.
[SPEAKER_01]: Positive reinforcement.
[SPEAKER_01]: The whole way there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the moment he goes, ooh, what's this?
[SPEAKER_01]: Leave it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he works through it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Correction.
[SPEAKER_01]: Leave it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Bang.
[SPEAKER_01]: Correction happens.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he's like,
[SPEAKER_01]: So you give him that clear opportunity of what good is in what bad is.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or, you know, does that make sense?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, makes sense, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we got a local trainer over here.
[SPEAKER_02]: He has a, it's like a group training.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you can come there with your dog and then they do obedience stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: So the dogs don't meet.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you're just walking in the figure aids and stuff like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we went there and it was it was pretty good except for his winding and but he's doing his obedience and I think maybe that's a good starting point to just start I don't know 100 feet of the way and do the beaten stuff and what.
[SPEAKER_02]: just told me and then maybe work a way closer to the group.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because it's kind of like jumping into the deep end.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then be like, all right, teach me how to swim now.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, no.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, that's just not going to work for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you need to go, okay, cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: Meet me in the kitty pool where it's up to your ankles.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'll teach you how to start swimming.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then once you're ready, we'll drift you off to the deep end.
[SPEAKER_01]: and you're jumping right into the deep end.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's starting in a really, you know, you're failing, you're set up to fail.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was doing it in jujitsu today, basically they were like, all right, so basically get somebody in a full choke and then try to get out.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, no, I'm gonna die.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like this is setting up for failure.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when you do it, you have to go all the way out and then just tell your trainer like, hey, I need to reduce, I need to limit and
[SPEAKER_01]: Let this stimulation in very gradually in order for him to really understand what is right and what is and what is wrong So you can make it very binary very black and white straight down the middle you're out here You have a good time all everything is good You start to get close and you just tell him just run your group and I'll just I don't even need to join I'm just gonna use you guys, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's an incredible opportunity.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, many people don't have that.
[SPEAKER_01]: They just go out and try to get lucky.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you have a set group of dogs, you know they're gonna be there at that time.
[SPEAKER_01]: You go to the park and you just, and what I would do in the beginning is a long line.
[SPEAKER_01]: So giving him some freedom, like I usually do like 15, 20 feet, nothing too long, just something he can get away from you on.
[SPEAKER_01]: And just let them have fun, let them have fun, do some the other thing that's really helpful is like what we call a draw I call it a drawback recall, so I'm the dogs next to me and then all of a sudden I back pedal and I go, hey come and then the dog just turns around and so so again if the dogs are in front of you and you back pedal and recall the dog is physically running away from the thing that's going to build them up so that's something I do too is as you're getting closer.
[SPEAKER_01]: to the distraction and you start to see that stimulation happen where the dog starts perking up.
[SPEAKER_01]: Shall we come?
[SPEAKER_01]: Boom.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you suck the dog out of the situation.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you just keep playing that game.
[SPEAKER_01]: The other thing is, you know, I talk about this a lot with reactivity.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is the inside turns, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So you're walking towards the thing and he starts to build and I just cut them off with my leg and go the other way.
[SPEAKER_01]: that's really helpful to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, that's what I would do is just right now I think you're going you're just jumping into the hot pan and trying to make it work.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would be gradually working through these situations.
[SPEAKER_01]: And at the end of the day, the goal would be no matter what situation you're
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I had a friend once tell me I had a dog very similar to this once it was a bloodhound that was doing the same stuff very vocal but very involuntary so she would just get a scent and just start winding and one of my friends who's another dog trainer he had said
[SPEAKER_01]: Start bringing attention to the behavior because if the dog if it's involuntary to the dog They don't know they're doing it and sometimes you can and this is a little bit like it I don't want to say it's advanced.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's almost but it's also like a pipe dream
[SPEAKER_01]: on paper, on paper it makes sense, but I don't know how realistic it will work.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I'll give you the advice.
[SPEAKER_01]: So basically, let's say he starts whining and then you just start marking that behavior.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you would start saying whining, whining, like whatever you would just start saying something.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then once you do that for a couple days where the dog starts whining and you start identifying the whine, then you can reverse engineer and start correcting the behavior when it happens.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you're bringing attention to the dog's behavior.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the dog starts and it'd be like telling somebody like, hey, it's like, hey, like, what are your shaking or you're doing that?
[SPEAKER_01]: I had no idea.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you're just bringing attention to it, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And then once the dog starts whining, you could then say, no whining, or leave it whining, whatever, you would basically do a negative correction or a verbal correction, and then pair the word, it's kind of like free shaping a little bit, I guess.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're just instead of free shaping for behaviors you want to see, where if a dog sits, you go, good sit, and they've never heard sit, you've never cut it, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're just using free shaping to discourage a behavior.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, as soon as the dog does something, we don't like, instead of correcting it or addressing it, we bring attention to it with a word, we cue it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Basically what we're saying is, hey, just so you know, this is what whining is, dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're like, okay, whining.
[SPEAKER_01]: Cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: I keep saying that every time I, you know, and then eventually, once they start to do the behavior, you say, no whining, and they go, oh, anyway, that just, I'll just tuck that in there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes they're just so do you know anything about the the the the litter?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, he has a what does it call pedigree?
[SPEAKER_02]: I know his parents and the grandparents and he has a bit of working line in him so I think it's makes things a bit harder maybe.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so yeah, I was just wondering if maybe you knew if any brothers or sisters were similar.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, he's he's he's a lot I think five sisters and five brothers and I know two of them Because one of the trainers we worked with also worked with his brothers and they're kind of similar Yeah, okay, so that's really good information for you because in my opinion it gives you an opportunity to not be so hard on yourself
[SPEAKER_01]: because like sometimes when you work with a group of dogs and we've seen it too like sometimes there was a couple of years where we had a German shepherd breeder like really breeding a very particular like the dog would walk in to make oh this is a so-and-so shepherd because they were whiny and neurotic and it failed with anxiety and it was just a genetic thing the dog they shouldn't be bred.
[SPEAKER_01]: like we just knew like looking at the dog how they sound like this is this is that dog, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, so in some cases it's good in some cases it's bad, but at the end of the day it's like let's say let's say these let's say mom and dad were bred and we have 10 puppies and you know somebody that knows two of the brothers you say, well just so you know
[SPEAKER_01]: that it may be a nothing you can control.
[SPEAKER_01]: You, within reason, so what I mean by that is you can always do something to decrease something, but you may not be able to take it away, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's also something that you know that you didn't create, so that's sometimes helpful, you know, where you know, like, so, you know, like if, if, and I don't know if you've been following me in my massive at all, but he's a big protective dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if I call one of my, you know, friends, my dog trainer friends, I said, hey, he just is super protective.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, oh shit, like, yeah, that's, you know, that's the same thing for you, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, if you know that, you know, you got some working line stuff in there, and, and so like, and I know that you've probably thought about this, but I just want to bring it to the table, when we breed working line dogs, we want that intensity.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, we want them to be a high spinning top.
[SPEAKER_02]: Revved up all day long, never tired ready to go like when I say go you're already there like you're balls to the wall All in I'm happy that he's he's like that, but I think I have to kind of redirect it a little bit for example at home He sleeps almost all day long in the morning.
[SPEAKER_02]: We make our morning walk the hour and hour or two Then we come home and then he sleeps for it
[SPEAKER_02]: six hours or seven.
[SPEAKER_02]: So he's super chill at home.
[SPEAKER_02]: And when we do our sports stuff, he's super intense and I like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if he seems, I think he likes it too.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I don't want him to be super stressed about like meeting another dog.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I want that he has a good life and not be stressed all the time.
[SPEAKER_02]: The intensity is totally fine for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, it's a good point and I think it's just how it's coming out because if you think about it, let's say again, just for fun, we get a dog and the dog is wired to work all day.
[SPEAKER_01]: whatever that means for for your country for that particular breed.
[SPEAKER_01]: Usually it's just hurting like we just heard animals all day or whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: So let's say the dog was wired all day to work.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like in my opinion, a good working dog is a lot like what you have.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I have a Dutch shepherd that is like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's if she's in the house, if we tell her to go lay down, she'll go lay down for hours.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then if I'm like, hey, let's go play.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's on, she's on until she can't breathe.
[SPEAKER_01]: So for me, that's good that you have that, but you have to realize that if that can of worms isn't being opened enough throughout the day, when you do get the dog out, it's going to be overkill on everything.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's been waiting to get out and then he's like, my friends,
[SPEAKER_01]: And he just goes nuts, right, because all day long, you know, it's basically like the dog is supposed to be working from 6 a.m. to 11 p.m. and he gets an hour break during the day and then let's it all loose, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's almost overkill for him.
[SPEAKER_01]: He gets so stimulated and so excited.
[SPEAKER_01]: He said, all this energy worked up.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you were to come bring him into my board and train program, for an example, and this is kind of the benefit of a board and train.
[SPEAKER_01]: is I would be able to, the first thing I would do is treadmill.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I wouldn't care about the other dogs or the whining I would say, let's start knocking some low hanging fruit out, like some easy things to address.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the first thing would be treadmill, so he'd be on a treadmill for 15, 20 minutes, maybe more depending on his abilities.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, if you, for an example, brought it like you woke up at 8am, brought him out and 830, he was at the park and he was, you know, wine and like crazy.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he's ready to go, he's excited.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then what I would do as a test is I would I would tread mill him before so I would run him for a half an hour before Then bring him down and see if anything changes because that right there will tell you the reason why he's so over the top is because he's not getting enough Out he's not getting enough outlet, but he's also not getting enough exposure.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you take this high caliber working dog
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're letting him lose figuratively and literally for a little bit of time, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So he's just got all this like he's like a ball of energy.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then when you finally bring him to this place where he can do this thing, he just, it physically like he can't, he shakes like he just can't control it, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: He's just, but instead of shaking, he's winding.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's just chirping, chirping, chirping, chirping, chirping.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, so if you de-create, like, I think of it like a valve, like a pressure, like if you can if you can in the morning, just get some of that out through physical physical exertion.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, those are things I would be doing just because I know it's stressful for you guys and you're trying to figure out how to make this better.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think there's a there's a combination of things, but if you're if you're working against genetics, that's what I would do.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I would just
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's the same thing you probably see with, like, dogs playing with malin was and stuff, like, they're constantly, you know, bite and pillows and bite and tugs and doing obedience and just work in and I think Aussies are similar to it to a degree where they just need that physical outlet and if they don't get it, they quite literally like go insane.
[SPEAKER_01]: So those are things I would consider too is if you know if you can't access a treadmill, I would be doing like a run or a long walk and I would also you know just be interested like if he got like if you brought him to a doggy daycare or whatever I don't know if you guys if that's something you guys do but if you brought him to a doggy daycare and in the morning he's like whining and freaking out and then when you bring him home he's like chill as a cucumber
[SPEAKER_01]: That's also, you know, it's not realistic, it's not sustainable, it's not like always winding, let's bring him the daycare, just tell, it's just the more information you know, the better it's going to be for you to act.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, if you go, because it's either, it's either lack of training, it's either genetics, or it's either he doesn't know what else to do, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So, once you can figure out, oh,
[SPEAKER_01]: He's just worked up if if I were to work him a little bit more this morning.
[SPEAKER_01]: He probably wouldn't be as vocal or at least it would be easier for you to turn down But these are all like boxes.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would start to be checking.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think I think it's more than the Undygenetics part Because I think I'm doing maybe I'm wrong, but I think I'm doing a lot with him
[SPEAKER_02]: We do our walks and we do structured walks.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we're not just, I'm not just walking with him and I'm on my phone, so we get his off leash and we do focus yields and recalls and all this stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we do training for IGP1 and 2.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we're training.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I don't know, I think it's enough for him because he sleeps so much when we get home.
[SPEAKER_02]: So maybe I think it's heavier on the genetics part, but I'm not a dog trainer.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's hard for me to tell.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it could be.
[SPEAKER_01]: It also just, you know, so getting back to the corrections, just to go down that road.
[SPEAKER_01]: When you're correcting him with your collar, you want to actively also be moving a little bit.
[SPEAKER_01]: So let's say you're you're out with him.
[SPEAKER_01]: He sees the thing in front of him, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Whatever it is, the thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's like, oh, that's getting me excited.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would be, leave it, pop, pop, pop, pop.
[SPEAKER_01]: If he doesn't, I would, I would be turning and moving away from the thing and then revisiting at the same time, especially if it's like a genetic thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: If he is, again, like with my dog, if he's locked in on something, he looks at this thing and he goes, that thing is a threat to me and my family.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can I can correct him with the I always joke and I was like you could run him over and he'd still be like Hackel's up locked in on this he just doesn't get a shit.
[SPEAKER_00]: It does not care.
[SPEAKER_01]: So You know you you could he could be locked in so sometimes you actually physically need to You know like you would a person like remove him from the situation to come back But you're not going home you're coming right back to readdress it
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's the other thing too is you have him on the leash.
[SPEAKER_01]: He starts to build.
[SPEAKER_01]: You say, hey, you can look and that's the thing that you have to Clare a fight for him If possible because there is a possibility that you're never gonna be able to like there is a possibility that he's like, oh, I know what's wrong And I know what's right.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't help myself right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I just can't you know that is a thing right and so many dog owners with really high caliber dogs
[SPEAKER_01]: even me like an enemy speak of the devil.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like even me this dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't take some of his instinctual things out, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: But I can control what he does.
[SPEAKER_01]: So for an example, I think with Shiro, it's applicable and okay and appropriate for him to look and get parked up and get excited.
[SPEAKER_01]: but once the whining starts to come on, then you need to really go through the deactivation process to see what's going to be helpful.
[SPEAKER_01]: And because you could even argue that when he was actually barking before where you said he was, he was, um,
[SPEAKER_01]: like barking and then he switched to whining.
[SPEAKER_01]: He could be doing everything he can to be like, I can't help it, you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: And if a dog can't help it, then again, you have avoidance where we're like, okay, we're just going to leave.
[SPEAKER_01]: You have again, lots of exercise.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's like the first thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: All dogs would behave better if they were more exercise period.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a very,
[SPEAKER_01]: And I know that you said you do your structure walks and stuff, but also you've got to think like a dog like that can do whatever you walk you're doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Times that's why like doing the sports that you're doing like the IG three or IG P what is it now IG and it's not shits in any more it's IGP.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's IGP one two three one is tracking two is obedience and three is to.
[SPEAKER_02]: the shots on the protections.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, but he's not fighting.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I can't do the protection.
[SPEAKER_01]: That stuff is gold for him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like that is I'm sure he loves it and I'm sure he comes home and he's cooked.
[SPEAKER_01]: But even that stuff is a good example.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like when we used, I used to watch a lot of protection stuff, including back then, shuts in and stuff like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And even my dutchie, right, a perfect example.
[SPEAKER_01]: If I get her harness on and she sees like a guy in a suit, she, she's about, she'll be in a down and she'll listen, but she, I would never expect her to stop that whining, but I also never have to, that will never happen except out of this context, and then which I don't care that it's happening.
[SPEAKER_01]: So for you, you have to pick your battles a little bit too, where let's say he's out running around with his friends having the best time, you're like, all right, we got to go, you recall him, you've down him and he sits there and winds and you're like, all right, we're just going to leave.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't like that's not a failure because you may be trying to tell a fish not to swim here.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think there's a lot of things you can do.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think you have a lot of different options.
[SPEAKER_01]: However,
[SPEAKER_01]: You just don't, you know, I, I, it's hard for me to know exactly where, and, and I think correcting it ultimately would be helpful regardless of if it's instinctual and an involuntary and or, um, also, um,
[SPEAKER_01]: something he doesn't know the difference, you know, because the correction is a disruptor.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he starts to win and you correct him and knock him out of that state of mind and then pay him for not winning.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's a lot of things that you can do, but there is no direct
[SPEAKER_01]: thing, you know, exact thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's that would be my homework for you is to really go in and try to figure out why it's happening.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it involuntary?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it genetics?
[SPEAKER_01]: Can the dog help it?
[SPEAKER_01]: Does the dog know what they're doing is wrong or not?
[SPEAKER_01]: And do you have exercises that you can do to deactivate that when it does happen?
[SPEAKER_01]: And making sure that you're
[SPEAKER_01]: You're starting off making it really easy for the dog and then slowly and gradually getting closer to the the the the reaction.
[SPEAKER_01]: Instead of just diving right in right so I have a dog that involuntary barks and we're just jumping in the group class.
[SPEAKER_01]: you're just you're you know just ripping it off right there it's like your balls to wall I would just you know go further away and then work yourself in because I've done that with a lot of dogs that are very reactive on the leash for an example I'll go you know in a parking lot across the street and I'll work the dog on basics
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'll make sure that the dog is so sharp and so engaged with me.
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't want to get in trouble.
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't want to pass me.
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't want to not see me when I turn.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're just so engaged.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they've never had that engagement before.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're locked in.
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't want to get in trouble.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're just locked in on me and I'm paying them and I'm correcting them and they're just they get it.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're like, all right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes sir, right with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then I start blending in and then they get into group class and they just don't bark.
[SPEAKER_01]: Owners are shocked and amazed and wowed and impressed and
[SPEAKER_01]: frustrated all at the same time and it's just because I didn't two things I didn't jump right into it which normally people do because they just have a reactive dog and they go walk in the neighborhood and they never have a time to build up to that but then also I gave the dog a pre-requisite
[SPEAKER_01]: And if I turn year with me unless you're, and, and if you don't do any of those things you're in trouble.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, as you take like a really melty dog that's disobedient being a brat and causing a lot of stress, it's like a kid, like you almost bring in like the drill sergeant type behavior, we're like, hey, no exceptions black and white got to pay attention, you know, because you're causing way too much stress way to like you said the first, I think in the beginning of our conversation, you said, I think he's stressing himself out.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't like he's working himself up.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I've done that a lot of times successfully with really reactive dogs,
[SPEAKER_01]: Is I'll bring him out given prerequisites.
[SPEAKER_01]: They follow it.
[SPEAKER_01]: They go, okay, this guy's serious, and then I walk him right into the room with dogs, and they just they don't care Because they're they've just been like their life has been so dull owners are just holding on Yappin, yelling not being clear.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that would be my advice for you guys Perfect Thank you
[SPEAKER_02]: You're welcome.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's a lot for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think I have super high expectations.
[SPEAKER_02]: And
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe sometimes I'm too hard on myself and yeah, yeah, and that's what I was saying before is like you got to give yourself more grace because If you're dealing with genetics, like if if I was upset every time this dog, my master who's in the room, if I was upset every time he was protective or barking or suspicious or acted like a guardian dog does
[SPEAKER_01]: I would be miserable.
[SPEAKER_01]: I bake man.
[SPEAKER_01]: I must have done.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, no, that's just who he is.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, that's, so same thing for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you get a dog that's just.
[SPEAKER_01]: ready to go all the time and and and and in the beginning he kind of went crazy right where he was like barking and really vocalizing and you said hey quit the shipment stop and now he's like okay can I just whisper and you're like yeah no and he's like I get out of it right so so you do have to you definitely have to give yourself more credit that if you are working with
[SPEAKER_01]: it's very hard to hold like hold those dogs still sometimes you know and so when you get a dog that think about it like when he's out and he has all four legs moving and running and I'm sure he's chasing and he's being chased and
[SPEAKER_01]: He's having the best time of his life.
[SPEAKER_01]: His adrenaline's pumping, his hormones are firing off, his heart is beating, he's panting, he's just having such a good time, he's bouncing around, he's playbound, he's just being a dog, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you come, and it's different because he also, it sounds like he has a lot of working dog in him.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that type of play and that type of rough housing is very critical to a dog like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So him just chasing the other dogs around or being chased is like heaven for him.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's like dopamine and he's like, man, this feels right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I'm doing, you know, because he's not, you know, it's not like you live in a farm.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's working all day long, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So, so then after he gets his, you know, if he's lucky in hour with you of that chaos.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you come over and you say, hey, calm down.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's like, but I got eight more hours in the tank dude.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I can't.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I got to, you know, so I would say that's, that's right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you have to be realistic with yourself to it's tough for me to say.
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you think for a dog like him just in general, not for our specific situation?
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you think a second dog is good for his, um,
[SPEAKER_02]: for for him in general.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I don't think it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think it would.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think it's going to change anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I don't think you get it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Not not not not for the fixed for the for the for the reactivity just in general for his well-being.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do.
[SPEAKER_01]: Listen, if you were to say, hey, Tom, I got a really playful energetic friendlier than Helldog.
[SPEAKER_01]: Loves to play.
[SPEAKER_01]: Loves people.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you think that he would have fun with the playmate?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I do, you know, as long as the dog likes to play too, because, um, yeah, I, yeah, I think that that's, there's no red flags there at all.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like he loves other dogs, he loves playing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that some of the issues that you're dealing with are, again, genetic and are going to be tough to completely shut off, and or you're also doing all the right things.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not like, you know, you're making huge mistakes here.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think you just have a
[SPEAKER_01]: Really works up dog and so it's not like, you know, somebody comes in with a really reactive stressed out anxious dog because lack of good handling and you said can I get should I get another dog?
[SPEAKER_01]: I'd say no, but yeah, yeah, I think it would be an asset not anything else Okay, maybe in the future fool thing Yeah, and also also too like, you know, as he gets a little bit older, you could see that decrease as well
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because right now he's in, he's trying to get out of me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, right now, between now and like three years old, he's going to be like the, you know, a firecracker, he's going to be hot, you know, ready to just like do whatever explosive, all that energy, tons of, you know, development and play and drive and pushing this and expression, you know, and so right now it's like the prime, you know, he's like in his 20s.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's like,
[SPEAKER_01]: down for anything, you know, like with with a ton of like enthusiasm and, you know.
[SPEAKER_02]: Good.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're welcome.
[SPEAKER_02]: Good insights.
[SPEAKER_02]: And, um, yeah, thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can handle it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think you can do.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would say this.
[SPEAKER_01]: If in the future, you still feel frustrated or you feel like you still want to work on things.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you wanted to do something like this again, if you can get videos of
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I was just saying like, you know, if you, because if your resources are limited and you wanted another consult or you're thinking about it, what would be really helpful, not just for me for any trainer that you decide to work with outside of your town, get videos of the dog doing the behavior and then get videos of what you're doing about it would give, because right now, I'm basically, again, you're like calling on a mechanic going, hey, the engines make it annoying,
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, I'm just giving you like, you know, a handbook on like what I've seen.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you, you know, if you wanted to do something like this in the future with me or with anybody else, those assets will be extremely valuable to actually see.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because you could be correcting the dog all wrong.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I big there's your issue right there.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no gas in this vehicle.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like that's why you're not able to get any results.
[SPEAKER_01]: So.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Then I will walk on it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And my wife will film everything, and then I prepared for next time.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that's a good idea.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, see you good.
[SPEAKER_02]: OK.