[SPEAKER_02]: there and welcome to our show.
[SPEAKER_02]: The shit no one tells you about writing.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm best selling author, Bianca Marie, and I'm joined by CC Lira of Wendy Sherman Associates and Carly Waters of PS Literary.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hi everyone and welcome back to another box with hooks.
[SPEAKER_02]: As per usual we are going to dive straight in.
[SPEAKER_02]: CC, how about you kick us off with your
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's do this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Dear CC, our wives under the sea meets love, lies leading.
[SPEAKER_01]: When Billy Zoo finds her girlfriend eating someone they both loved.
[SPEAKER_01]: Nothing but skin is an adult horror novel complete at 72,000 words.
[SPEAKER_01]: It blends the rural cannibalism of Lucy roses the lamb with Julia Armfield's saffac exploration of grieving a partner who's still alive but will never be the same in our wives under the sea.
[SPEAKER_01]: Billy, an ex-convict working at a lesbian bar in Idaho, would do anything for her girlfriend Jasmine.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when the cops say Jasmine's sister's missing, Billy drops everything to search.
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't take Billy long to find the body.
[SPEAKER_01]: The part she's unclear on, whether Jasmine killed her.
[SPEAKER_01]: The bloody knife nearby is Jasmine's, but Billy won't risk sending the woman she plans on marrying to prison, not if Jasmine's innocent.
[SPEAKER_01]: Billy decides to get rid of the evidence, then figure out who's responsible.
[SPEAKER_01]: But when she takes a closer look, the body parts are missing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Someone butchered the course.
[SPEAKER_01]: Terrified, Billy disposes of what's left.
[SPEAKER_01]: Questioning her girlfriend is fruitless though because Jasmine will stop cooking dinner long enough to talk.
[SPEAKER_01]: She doesn't seem to grasp that her sister is dead.
[SPEAKER_01]: The adjustment did kill her, she's a no-state to be help responsible.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then, mid-meal, Jasmine tells Billy
[SPEAKER_01]: Billy is horrified.
[SPEAKER_01]: But since she got rid of the body, now she's an accessory to murder.
[SPEAKER_01]: What's worse, Billy's own sister saw her do it, and took pictures she's threatening to share.
[SPEAKER_01]: As Billy's secret spirals out of control, Jasmine grows delirious with hunger.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when Billy starts to give Jasmine pieces of herself, a chunk of skin, a finger, there's no going back.
[SPEAKER_01]: But eventually, that's not enough to satisfy Jasmine anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: For sure, she'll go to follow the woman she loves and where it's going to end.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm a queer woman who lives in Southern California where I obtained a bachelor's degree in English and work in content marketing.
[SPEAKER_01]: In my spare time, I haunt my local lesbian bar and volunteer at a
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for the work you do with your writing classes and the podcast, all the best of Cassie.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much, CC.
[SPEAKER_02]: It interests me that there was no trigger warning thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Khali?
[SPEAKER_00]: I definitely thought there should have been a trigger warning, so anybody who was listening, chime in, let us know if you think horror, sci-fi, cannibalism, books, maybe need trigger warning.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, this is CC's one to tackle first.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was very, very interesting, but I think trigger warnings were needed.
[SPEAKER_01]: if you're a child, sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's put the trigger warning for the children.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I don't need a trigger warning for horror cannibalism.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's horror cannibalism.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like it's expected.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's horror.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like it's the horror genre.
[SPEAKER_01]: Everything's gonna be disturbing.
[SPEAKER_01]: The fact that it's horror is enough warning.
[SPEAKER_02]: Again, it's like my dual and dual.
[SPEAKER_02]: Poor and poor.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm very similar people and I'm who's struggling with that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Is this the horror genre or the horror genre?
[SPEAKER_02]: So we don't horror horror, please.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am saying horror.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, but listen, Roxanne Day wants to root something and essay in which she said,
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, her she has an opinion on trigger warnings and her opinion is she finds it really surprising that people still think that safety can be achieved because she is someone who does not feel safe in the world and I'm very much like that too like I don't feel safe when I see trigger warnings I don't feel safe for but I think that when it comes to trigger warnings if it doesn't make someone even one person feel safe great.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: A one mother need at all to see a trigger warning here.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would make that clear.
[SPEAKER_01]: But do I personally need it?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, because it's the genre and also because I'm a disturbed person.
[SPEAKER_02]: well no one can disagree with that right two things just reminder to our listeners that this show is always marked as having adult content which is why we don't preface the episodes with this kind of thing we do have it in our show notes so always assume that we are going to be inappropriate for this
[SPEAKER_02]: And this kind of stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: So just that as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I have a friend's mom.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have a friend's mom who listens to our show and this is what she wants.
[SPEAKER_01]: She didn't know that her daughter was my friend.
[SPEAKER_01]: She wants showed her the screen of her phone with her podcast and said, I don't agree with this word.
[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously talking about shit, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: But the show is really good.
[SPEAKER_01]: So to everyone out there who usually doesn't like salty language, but you still listen to us.
[SPEAKER_01]: We love you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: We love everyone.
[SPEAKER_01]: But we also love you.
[SPEAKER_02]: We appreciate it.
[SPEAKER_02]: CC did you give us how many words was in that query lid to before you tell us what you thought.
[SPEAKER_01]: So 376 words.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love this hook.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I started reading this paragraph and I go, oh, our wives are under the sea, meets love-wise bleeding.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, Billy, yet I gotta find her girlfriend and then there's the verb eating.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's eating dinner, and she's eating someone, they both loved this is great.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love this, I'm obsessed, great hook.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm very sorry because I'm going to be totally useless here, but I have no notes.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love this, I'm completely obsessed.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm hungry for more terrible pun intended, and if this were in my query inbox, all I would be doing is just canceling my calls and reading this.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is one of those queries that I would not flag to read the pages later.
[SPEAKER_01]: The genres I represent from genres I don't queries that aren't actually for me This is one of the situations where I'd be like I'm gonna read this immediately because I'd be so obsessed Who's so depressed?
[SPEAKER_02]: Hi for when we get to the pages to see if the pages is made to go up to the query But we will get there.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, Kali, what was your take?
[SPEAKER_00]: tension is building.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I really like this.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not a big horror reader.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have represented her in the past.
[SPEAKER_00]: My client Lindsay Wong definitely has hints of horror throughout her literary fiction.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm probably not the exact target audience for this, but I totally loved it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I am somebody where, for the purposes of the show, I probably would have been like, maybe we need a trigger warning, but in terms of like, what comes in my inbox?
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the trigger warning thing is so interesting, because when I was coming of age and publishing, there were no trigger warnings, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And something that has evolved over time.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I agree if it makes somebody safe,
[SPEAKER_00]: that's important, especially if it's somebody an intern or an assistant or somebody like under my care that I'm mentoring, that I want to create a safe workspace for them.
[SPEAKER_00]: But we can go into, I mean, this isn't shooting the shit, so you don't have to go into all the pros and cons of trigger warnings, but it is a really interesting thing to think about, you know, how do we feel surprised in which ways, in which ways we're trying to feel safe, and can the word trigger warning actually make us feel safe?
[SPEAKER_00]: All that said, I think this is really interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: The only note that I kind of had was around this
[SPEAKER_00]: concept of, you know, Billy won't risk sending the woman she plans on marrying to prison.
[SPEAKER_00]: Billy has already been to prison.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I just thought, like, maybe an interesting line, you know, something really small just to say, like, it doesn't want to send her to prison where she's already been and knows isn't a good place.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if that's kind of alluded to already or the, you know, you wouldn't want to send somebody that you love to prison.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I love that, like, she's already been there and doesn't want to send somebody that she loves back there.
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought that could have been a little bit harder hitting there.
[SPEAKER_00]: But overall, I think it's really good, you know, I don't really have a lot of notes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, the other thing I wanted to talk about, and we're not really going to be able to get into this, but necessarily because the pages are obviously only see, you know, the first five pages.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the only kind of thing I've read in this space is more like dark romance.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I was kind of wondering if there was kind of like relational scenes, you know, between them intimate scenes, between them, then it could also be dark romance.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I mean, I trust that the author knows what they're doing here, and it is very firmly in horror.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it is about their relationship.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I was like, okay, is it dark romance potentially?
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just doing that out there as a question mark.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I trust that this person's done their research, and they know what they're talking about.
[SPEAKER_00]: But to me, because it's all about relationships, intimate relationships, potentially it is dark romance.
[SPEAKER_00]: But anyway, I'm not trying to throw a wrench in the plane here.
[SPEAKER_00]: I trust the author.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so what's the difference between dark romance and horror romance?
[SPEAKER_02]: Four romance.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, run, man.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what I'm trying to say.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is on the pod when I'm her romance.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, guys, it's a really, really name.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the hardest word.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the hardest one.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, you're like, her ratio, like her romance.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a, but like, although the same thing are all the actually different things.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's, they're really different.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like whatever's prioritized, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So dark romance, it's like the romance is the priority of her romance as horror comes first there.
[SPEAKER_00]: That would be like the horror.
[SPEAKER_00]: takes preference over the romance, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So CCG thoughts here?
[SPEAKER_01]: There's there's also the element that in poor romance or however we're saying it.
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't necessarily need the love interest to be dark in any way.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like think of vampires of ill-nortay by Isabelle Kanyas.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's horror and romance.
[SPEAKER_01]: and Nestor and how my god I forgot the protagonist's name, there's nothing dark between them, like the horror is the dark.
[SPEAKER_01]: But in dark romance often the relationship, like it's a guy that you shouldn't necessarily want to be with or woman that you shouldn't necessarily want to be.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like there's there's the darkness coming from the world.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to urge you that this is an example of that.
[SPEAKER_00]: That you shouldn't be with someone else.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, you're your comment makes sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm answering like what's the difference between the two.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, we're obviously throwing a wrench into this plan here.
[SPEAKER_00]: So anybody listening on YouTube, you know, you could pop in the comments down below.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll do the classic YouTuber thing where you do this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Comment down below.
[SPEAKER_00]: Come to let us know.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can go.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to borrow my hints or darker romance.
[SPEAKER_00]: And obviously the author isn't on the show today to pick the brain a bit more.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I'm sure I think potentially if you're looking for another angle here, there is another angle.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's also, I think, another element is dark romance needs a little bit of spice for that to make the genres conventions and how much spice there's here.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, so much of it is the treatment, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you have to feel the story.
[SPEAKER_01]: In the first five pages, I did not feel it was dark romance, but the set up 100%.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, right now we're going to see if the pages lived up to the query letter, who I'm quite nervous yet.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, CC, tell us what's in the pages.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so the protagonist Billy is in a car with her sister, her sister's driving.
[SPEAKER_01]: We know that as soon as Billy left in September her girlfriend started not responding to her text or responding in very like yes or no answers, something was wrong, really doesn't know what.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then Jasmine's mom, Jasmine's the girlfriend, calls Billy and asks Billy to come home, and now Billy's almost there, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Her sister's driving.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she asks her sister, do you know what's wrong with her, her being the girlfriend?
[SPEAKER_01]: Her sister's not helpful at all.
[SPEAKER_01]: Billy shares that her girlfriend has barely spoken with her.
[SPEAKER_01]: Her sister's really surprised.
[SPEAKER_01]: Her sister, they have a difficult relationship, clearly.
[SPEAKER_01]: We know that the sister, Billy Sister, is neighbors with the girlfriend, which is why Billy might be asking her sister, like if she knows anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a very good amount of interior already comparing Billy and and her sister, which is which is really well done.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because Sister says, even if she sick again, she shouldn't go to you.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we haven't hinted that, you know, there's a potential illness.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't know what that illness is.
[SPEAKER_01]: They start arriving into town, which we know is a town where the protagonist is not feel comfortable.
[SPEAKER_01]: The protagonist eludes the fact that she was in Seattle and was loving Seattle, but had to leave.
[SPEAKER_01]: She dropped out of a program, which was a really big deal for her.
[SPEAKER_01]: It isn't said that she dropped out of the program because of the girlfriend, but that's what we assume
[SPEAKER_01]: And her sister says, actually, I'm not going to take you to your home.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to take you to the bar because I'm a surprise party for one of our friends.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Billy is like, well, will my girlfriend be there?
[SPEAKER_01]: And obviously the sister doesn't know because the girlfriend's not being super responsive.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when they arrive at the bar, the girlfriend's there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so now you're taking it.
[SPEAKER_01]: as I said, I love the premise and this is a very polished scene with a very strong writing.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is one of those situations where I go, yep, this person can write.
[SPEAKER_01]: What I think needs work is the storytelling.
[SPEAKER_01]: I always say, you need two things to make it a table.
[SPEAKER_01]: You need two types of talent to make it in this industry.
[SPEAKER_01]: You need a talent for storytelling and a talent for writing.
[SPEAKER_01]: You definitely have the talent for writing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I also think you have the talent for storytelling, but I think the storytelling execution here needs polishing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Specifically, Wind regards to this one thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have a protagonist in a car.
[SPEAKER_01]: Driving home with anxiety, I assume, one can only assume, because there's something wrong with her girlfriend.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like there's a big, big mystery here, which is what is wrong with her girlfriend.
[SPEAKER_01]: We know why the protagonist is wondering this.
[SPEAKER_01]: The girlfriend doesn't answer her text.
[SPEAKER_01]: The girlfriend's been acting distant and strange.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't see the protagonist running through a single theory in her head.
[SPEAKER_01]: not a single one.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that is not realistic.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that is also not something that develops character.
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of writers say, hey, if the readers about to find out the reason pretty soon anyway, why does my protagonist need to run through theories?
[SPEAKER_01]: That's just going to drag the pace.
[SPEAKER_01]: It won't.
[SPEAKER_01]: When we see your protagonist theorizing options, A, they're sounding like a real human.
[SPEAKER_01]: which means that we connect with them because they become real in our minds.
[SPEAKER_01]: True, it's a really good opportunity to drop curiosity seeds, to show us the go-to options that their mind goes to, which is very unique for each person.
[SPEAKER_01]: As an example, Billy's sister mentions that it could be cheating and Billy immediately goes, that's not something she even considered.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that speaks so much about their relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: It says so much about the kind of person ability is, because the reader I guarantee you will be thinking, I would probably think it was one of the options was cheating.
[SPEAKER_01]: Most people would think that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the fact that the protagonist does it again informs so much about their relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: so Billy's interior already isn't making sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't make sense because of this example I mentioned but other examples too.
[SPEAKER_01]: For example, she is about to get home and solve this really big mystery of what's wrong with her girlfriend, hopefully.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then her sister says she's taking her to a bar.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do not believe that anyone would be like, okay bar, yeah, like it doesn't make any sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: She would be like, stop the car.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna go home.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if she would, then I want her interior to inform the reason why that's not her reaction.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not just her interiority that's not working.
[SPEAKER_01]: Her behavior also does make any sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is something that's very common in first pages.
[SPEAKER_01]: Bailey is asking her sister, do you know what's wrong with her?
[SPEAKER_01]: This is on the first page.
[SPEAKER_01]: That is not a question that makes any sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: Any sense?
[SPEAKER_01]: Why would she be asking this now?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is there about to get home?
[SPEAKER_01]: Why not when they first got in the car?
[SPEAKER_01]: Why not before?
[SPEAKER_01]: And especially since there is later in the next page interiority saying that Bailey caved and asked her sister if she knew what was wrong with her a week ago.
[SPEAKER_01]: So why is she asking you to get in?
[SPEAKER_01]: And if she's asking you to get in because people asked the question more than once, then again, there would be interiority reflecting probably my sister's tired of hearing me say this question.
[SPEAKER_01]: And her sister's reaction would be you have to stop asking me that or something like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the reason why I'm picking on this, the promise is not to be annoying, but
[SPEAKER_01]: I read setups like this all the time as an agent.
[SPEAKER_01]: I read setups where the behavior just doesn't add up because it doesn't make sense that this would be the first time someone's doing something.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because the story might be beginning on page one, but the protagonist has been alive and well for many, many pages.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when I read a set of like this, I think to myself the writer hasn't done the work of thinking through the fact that this human has existed for a long time before the story started.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're just putting information that the reader needs to know.
[SPEAKER_01]: And not adding story that would make sense for the protagonist.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, the story's for the reader, of course.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a book that's going to be out in books that I was looking to buy it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But in order for the readers to want to buy it, it actually should be a story that makes sense for the protagonist.
[SPEAKER_01]: I also noticed that she said jail and not prison at one point and I think that people have been to prison say prison and not jail, there is a distinction.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know this from having watched a lot of prison shows, so as you can see, this is very good.
[SPEAKER_01]: First primary source material, it's really not, but hey, another thing that got me curious was there's a line that says she texted her academic advisor this morning, dropped out of the program.
[SPEAKER_01]: It isn't said that she dropped out of the program because of her girlfriend, but if it was, that's huge.
[SPEAKER_01]: Where are the messy emotions?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, where's the resentment for having to drop out of the program because of her girlfriend, but at the same time guilt for feeling resentment, and at the same time total devotion to her girlfriend, since she loves her girlfriend, so much or something else, maybe these wouldn't be the emotions.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's just not realistic to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Another element, speaking of realistic, her girlfriend's mom called Billy, you have to come home.
[SPEAKER_01]: Did Billy not ask why?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, is it also because the girlfriend is an answering the mom's text?
[SPEAKER_01]: And if so, what theories did they the two of them talk through?
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you see what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, there's a lot of, there's this huge problem which is the girlfriend is in response of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's about to get answered because the girlfriend's at the bar.
[SPEAKER_01]: But if I don't have the protagonist thinking like a proper human being and acting like a proper human being, I don't believe it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just don't believe that it's actually happening.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the note.
[SPEAKER_01]: I did really enjoy it and I love the premise.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just not sure that it's believable to be.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then not to throw a wrench in everything.
[SPEAKER_01]: I also don't know that her driving to see her girlfriend is the most active of scenes or the best place to start.
[SPEAKER_01]: It could work.
[SPEAKER_01]: But only if her interior is doing more work.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I am also giving you all these interior already and behavior notes and you might choose to start some police assaults because there might be some some other starting point that could make more sense.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you, CC.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, Kali, handing it across to you, I thought this was really strong, you know, I think when something is pitched as horror, you wonder a bit like where is the horror, where's the atmosphere or like when does the horror part click in?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because that happens a lot with some like the submissions.
[SPEAKER_00]: people think that I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: The horror is very active.
[SPEAKER_00]: But what I really liked about this was how there were just really subtle references and word choices and I thought were really, really smart.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, things like set Billy's teeth on edge.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just these little things where I could really tell there was an intense amount of intentionality with each word choice.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I really, I found this really sophisticated in that sense and I thought that they did a good job.
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the things that was a bit unclear to me was this whole what where was home and what was Seattle's relation to home and how all of this connects because it took me a little while to figure out home was Idaho and Seattle was where she was in school I don't know if it's just the way that I've read it so that's another reason why I don't know if the car makes the most sense.
[SPEAKER_00]: because if somebody is all kind of set up at school and trying to make that their new home, I do think there'd be a ton of more resentment with the idea of like, I have to come home.
[SPEAKER_00]: But for what?
[SPEAKER_00]: And why is her sister encouraging her potentially to come home in a band in school?
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: As CC alluded to, it's very complicated here.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if that is hitting the exact right note.
[SPEAKER_00]: There was a joke that was like a 10 out of 10 joke and I wanted to read you the 10 out of 10 joke because I loved it so so they're going to a bar to meet up for this a party and so they said why don't we go to the bar Billy hesitated a few years ago she'd been flat broke when she spotted a neon sign advertising the bush This was a name she could get behind or underneath she wasn't picky
[SPEAKER_00]: 10 at a 10 joke.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, clap for that joke.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was just like fantastic, top to bottom.
[SPEAKER_00]: I loved it.
[SPEAKER_00]: But any other notes I had, I potentially a bit overwritten.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I really did think it would sharp.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't think it would sharp.
[SPEAKER_02]: Wonderful, Kali.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, before we move on to Kali's query letter, we'll just stop for a word from our sponsor.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, Kali handing it over to you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Dear, Carly and the T-Snot Y'all crew, what can I say but thank you, thank you, your wisdom insight and humor are a well-spring of motivation and connection for all of us dreamers and storytellers twiling away at obscurity.
[SPEAKER_00]: You help me not get that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm seeking representation for my debut novel, never the same love twice.
[SPEAKER_00]: Women's fiction, 81,000 words.
[SPEAKER_00]: For readers of, before we breath lovers and hearts and lovers, this dual timeline mid-lit story explores the many forms of love that shape a life with a musical undercurrent for a medicine of deep cuts.
[SPEAKER_00]: In 2002, New York ash arrives with no plan beyond experiencing the city when she's drawn into a consuming love with Kai, a hardworking MBA student who's balancing his finance job with night classes.
[SPEAKER_00]: His sincerity stands in stark contrast to the rarefied world, Ash Navigates in her day job as a personal assistant to the ultra wealthy Gableman family.
[SPEAKER_00]: As Ash moves between the opulent upper east side universe, the pulse of early 2000s Manhattan, and a growing devotion to yoga should begin to see that love is not singular, it can be romantic, communal, spiritual, and self-forged.
[SPEAKER_00]: When Ash is offered a cup of it's spot at an overseas yoga training, she's hopeful that Kai will see the same possibility she does.
[SPEAKER_00]: He doesn't, and they part ways.
[SPEAKER_00]: Twenty years later, Charleston, Ash's wife, mother in yoga studio owner.
[SPEAKER_00]: But when a routine exam, reveals a pelvic mass, the past resurfaces with new urgency.
[SPEAKER_00]: Protector has been used to come distant, to not derailed or college-bound sons.
[SPEAKER_00]: Ash keeps her health concerns private.
[SPEAKER_00]: In the meantime, she returns to New York for a yoga workshop in CSK.
[SPEAKER_00]: One last night together reveals that all of the love that shaped Ash there has been born of hope, yearning, and not strike the devotion.
[SPEAKER_00]: Back home, Ash is diagnosed with ovarian cancer.
[SPEAKER_00]: But just as she prefers for surgery, her story takes a shocking twist, and a car accident takes her life.
[SPEAKER_00]: Never the same love twice as a story about the choices that define us, the love that marks us and the ways a life continues to echo long after it ends.
[SPEAKER_00]: I worked as a professional copywriter and copy editor for 22 years, including the last eight writing software architecture and user interface copy, in the automotive and insurance industries.
[SPEAKER_00]: I live in South Carolina with my husband in three cents, formerly many Tyler.
[SPEAKER_00]: Kali, did we get a word count for that?
[SPEAKER_00]: We sure did.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, Manny, for writing that out for us.
[SPEAKER_00]: 364 words.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, great.
[SPEAKER_02]: What was your take on that?
[SPEAKER_00]: all right.
[SPEAKER_00]: So starting at the top here.
[SPEAKER_00]: I am not familiar with the book before we were lovers.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm a big confused here.
[SPEAKER_00]: I tried to look it up on my business and move me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm potentially wondering if this is a self-published title.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think this just starts a conversation potentially, you know, for the sake of the podcast about whether you would include a self-published title or a trad pub title in your comps.
[SPEAKER_00]: I really suggest not including a self-pub title in your comps because your comps are all about signaling where you want to be in the marketplace and for the sake of querying an agent, we're presuming that you are a seeking traditional publishing and not self-publishing.
[SPEAKER_00]: So just make sure that you remember that your comps are framing where you believe you are in the market.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so again, if an agent sees that you're copying to a self-published title, we might be confused about maybe what some of your aspirations are.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I just wanted to flag that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I also think we need to unpack what you wrote here called midlit story.
[SPEAKER_00]: Very interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm assuming you mean kind of like middle brow thing, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Where it's like, you know, low brow versus high brow.
[SPEAKER_00]: This concept of like a midbrow.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you say midlit, but you're also call it women's fiction.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I was a little, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was a very intrigued by you calling it midlit.
[SPEAKER_00]: potentially doing the job of saying what we would say is up market.
[SPEAKER_00]: So then it's not women's fiction, it's up market fiction.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would argue, but again, you're booked to decide there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so a few things.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's very interesting reading queries and then reading them aloud on the podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: The only time I ever read queries aloud is for the podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like when I am
[SPEAKER_00]: reading queries for, you know, my day job, you know, I don't read them all out.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when I see things on the page it's actually very different than reading them all out.
[SPEAKER_00]: So sometimes I pick up things when I'm reading from the show in a way that I don't pick them up when I'm actually reading.
[SPEAKER_00]: What I didn't love when I was reading it when I was making my notes, I don't like all this definition of love.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't like this maybe it's just maybe cynical, but this like begins to see that love is not singular, it can be
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like that's obvious.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: If we need that many words to describe, that version of love that she's trying to signal with this devotion to yoga.
[SPEAKER_00]: When I read it aloud, it made a little bit more sense to me, but I don't think we need.
[SPEAKER_00]: that many different words about love.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think you could just find a way to say the multifaceted love, or try to do something like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think we'll do the job because then again, below you say, there's a big board of hope and yearning not strike the devotion.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, reading it aloud, I liked it better than I did when I was reading on the page.
[SPEAKER_00]: But somehow I just don't think we need to define love in that many different ways for the sake of the query letter because I think the queer letters should do the job through the plot of explaining this again, these are just my personal thoughts on this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Last paragraph, I don't like that you tell us the ending.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe there is another twist after this that we don't know, and you are saving something to be revealed, but I don't like that you tell us what happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't my favorite thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't think we need to spoil the ending.
[SPEAKER_00]: Also, it is very long, you know, in terms of paragraphs.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's essentially, I believe I'm scanning properly but four paragraphs of, you know, just what the book is about.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think we need to kind of,
[SPEAKER_00]: make the last paragraph in the ending of the query letter a bit more punchy about what happens when ash and kai reunite and kind of make that that explosion as opposed to and then probably telling us about the cancer but don't tell us what the car accident.
[SPEAKER_00]: I did not like that I knew the ending because I don't know it just took away that suspense obviously right this is trying to sell me on
[SPEAKER_00]: why I should request it, why I should read more and this is kind of giving me everything.
[SPEAKER_00]: I really curious about actually both Bianca and CC's thoughts about the comp to Hearts and Lovers.
[SPEAKER_00]: What do you guys think about?
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: What is heart and lover?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so yeah, that's a thing though, like it's called part the lover not hearts and lovers like I spent five minutes googling What is she she's too calm said never heard of and my brain's like I'm being haunted by a technology ghost
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I thought it was me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought, well, I can't find books.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm a terrible agent.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't search for books.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how to find titles.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was on goodreads.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was on Amazon.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was on book scan.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I was like, they're two titles.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I did the whole, oh, she probably means little change.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you want to torture me?
[SPEAKER_01]: Author writing this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is this a secret point to torture me?
[SPEAKER_01]: If so, good job.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I mean, I think we should obviously point out the obvious, which is potentially sloppy, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: That we're not writing the actual proper title of this.
[SPEAKER_00]: It could be that, again, these are books that we don't know about and you know, CC went through the, the hoops to kind of find these books, but if you meant heart of the lover, which is what I think based on reading this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Not heart of the lover, you're also saying it wrong.
[SPEAKER_01]: Heart, the lover.
[SPEAKER_00]: Heart, the lover.
[SPEAKER_02]: People, Lily King, guys, go on.
[SPEAKER_02]: Are you thinking of the Lily King one?
[SPEAKER_02]: Call you, or you think of another one?
[SPEAKER_00]: Lily King one.
[SPEAKER_02]: Then that's hot.
[SPEAKER_02]: The lava.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Heart the lava.
[SPEAKER_00]: I meant to go grab from upstairs.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Can we just stop with the semantics?
[SPEAKER_00]: And discuss how close this is actually two parts the lava.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm muting myself, so I'm not getting annoyed with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, can you please stay in muted, so we can see annoyed Carly annoyed Carly is a lot of fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I like it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's usually so level headed that whenever I have like a spike of emotion, like, come on.
[SPEAKER_01]: Give me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I meant to go grab the book so I could double check the actual title, so I had up a side me, but I left it upstairs.
[SPEAKER_01]: Google.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a great tool.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, okay, so here's the thing about titles.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, first of all, author, I love your title.
[SPEAKER_01]: Never the same love twice, great title.
[SPEAKER_01]: As a very minor note, I would not italicize all caps, titles written in all caps.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I love titles written in all caps.
[SPEAKER_01]: You just don't have to italicize it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's such a minor thing, but it actually helps with readability.
[SPEAKER_01]: and would also like to start a petition to everyone listening to our show.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're going to mention a book as a comp title, I repeat, if you are going to mention a book as your comp title, you must say the author's name.
[SPEAKER_01]: You must.
[SPEAKER_01]: First of all, it will avoid situations like this where I'm going down a rabbit hole in case you end up slipping up and saying the title wrong.
[SPEAKER_01]: But more importantly, it's really, really essential for name linkage.
[SPEAKER_01]: Name linkage is when people are able to link an author's name to a book title.
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of people can say lessons in chemistry, not too many people can say, or at least not as many people can say in Bondi Garmus, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So you really want to create name linkage because that empowers authors.
[SPEAKER_01]: So petition for every single query letter sent to our show to include author names when citing a comp title.
[SPEAKER_01]: Very, very important.
[SPEAKER_01]: Another thing I want to say, when I read mid-lit my brain auto-corrected to mid-list, which is not a good thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, this is my brain, this is my brain issue, but I feel like a lot of people wouldn't make that mistake, or at least potentially could.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what mid-list it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: is maybe it's a thing, maybe I'm just not aware of it, I'm usually the last one about this sort of stuff, but because of the auto-correct and because Carly also didn't know it, I'm just struck that one, you're quite alert.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like that, it's very deeply confusing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if you meant stories about people who are in the middle age.
[SPEAKER_01]: It made me think of middle grade also, like it's just very confusing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would strike that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Plot paragraphs.
[SPEAKER_01]: The plot paragraph is all the plot paragraphs are very internal.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you're mentioning things like the pulse of early 2000 Manhattan's, but after already telling us the year 2002, you're mentioning things like his sincerity, the stands and stark contrast to the verified world, or, you know, the fact that she is hopeful and the fact that there's devotion to yoga.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's all very internal and I do get the feeling this is a story where interiority and I love interiority There's a lot of the heavy lifting and that's awesome, but we still need plot.
[SPEAKER_01]: Lot was causality.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to buy little dominoes or something so I can have a prop whenever I ask people to please guys dominoes causality plot points.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe it's intentional, but to me it's way to internal.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the fact that we know, not just the ending to Carly's point, but the fact that she dies in the end.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, our protagonist is going to die?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, guys.
[SPEAKER_01]: We can't picture book like this.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, we can't picture books, saying, and then she dies.
[SPEAKER_01]: Unless this is a story about the afterlife I suppose, then midway through the book she goes to the afterlife, but that's not it.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not it.
[SPEAKER_01]: super clear so my big picture note and I thought this was not sent for me so probably you're like CC this is not for you so totally fair but my big picture note is please rewrite this with a focus on external plot points, causality and dear god if this book exists this heart and lovers book please tell us what it is
[SPEAKER_02]: Carly, I want to throw it back to you because I think what you were trying to say earlier is that that this lack stories similarities between the two books, not just in terms of the title.
[SPEAKER_02]: Is that what you were referring to?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was curious about your thoughts of both of your thoughts about this because
[SPEAKER_00]: It can be really hard to just pitch a book that already exists, and even though there are differences, of course, and I would never suggest that anything untoward happened in terms of the crafting of the book or not accusing anybody of anything.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just mean that when books come out around the same time that are similar, it's just the framing of them can be can be really challenging.
[SPEAKER_00]: And when I see something that's very similar to a book that already exists and I have to think how am I going to pitch this in a way that is different or can't compete with that or is it coming off of a trend of these kind of dual timeline market?
[SPEAKER_00]: Love stories?
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, I just, I think that's a really complex thing to think about as an agent about whether I would want to take something like that on.
[SPEAKER_00]: The uncle, did you find it first of all?
[SPEAKER_00]: Did you find it similar to Heart the Lever and CC?
[SPEAKER_00]: What is your agent brain tell you when you see something that's
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, when I heard the story, I did immediately think of, of hot the lover.
[SPEAKER_02]: The, I don't want to give stuff away for people who haven't read hot the lover.
[SPEAKER_02]: There was, you know, a, a, a definitely doesn't run that, but I was definitely thinking, May just similarities, CC.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a really interesting discussion.
[SPEAKER_01]: That Carly brings up because to me,
[SPEAKER_01]: At the same time publishing wants more of the same, you know, with twists, with a fresh take, with with a fresh voice, but we hear in this all the time we go, can we please have the next wedding people can we please have the next insert big book here and of course, heart the lover would be a wonderful example.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that this is one of those situations where an agent can really add value, because if you read pages and the pages are really grabbing you, it'll be up to you as the agent to have a conversation with your client and be like, okay, I totally say the heart the lover thing, but here's how this is different.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we can actually pull out threads and angles.
[SPEAKER_01]: and twists that really position it as for fans of this but with this fresh original angle and take and it does come down to having to read the pages because at the Query letter I agree the Query letter does not actually tell me what's different about it but that personally would not make my agent brain worried or anything because so much of what makes a book special is the execution.
[SPEAKER_01]: I also want to say that you know something that's really hot right now is life affirming stories.
[SPEAKER_01]: Everyone's going on and on about how they want life affirming stories, think, see you of golden.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there is something in my opinion very life affirming about heart the lover, which means that there could potentially be life affirming here as well, which is another reason why we should not be talking about the protagonist dying, cut the end.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just just say that again.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think what I think about is
[SPEAKER_00]: Any time something is comp to something and it is very similar, it has to be as good as if not better than that other one and that is what I kind of think about so when I read that I'm like okay in order for me to sell this comp to that it has to be that good and I think that's one of the reasons why we have the size comp so much and why they're so important.
[SPEAKER_02]: Those of you who are watching on YouTube will see me doing my wrap it up ladies and doing the third thing, et cetera, et cetera.
[SPEAKER_02]: We have to be finished in 10 minutes.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's just my, just my warning.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, we've been through chatting.
[SPEAKER_00]: We've been through chatting the last few episodes.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right guys, here we go.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, October 2002, our protagonist has moved to New York.
[SPEAKER_00]: She has moved in with two other roommates.
[SPEAKER_00]: We learned about the job that she got.
[SPEAKER_00]: She has moved from Washington state where she's kind of missing that bit of nature.
[SPEAKER_00]: She ends up at a party where she meets Kai and that is our sorry.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, what do you take on that?
[SPEAKER_00]: Alright, so my take on this a few things and everybody who gets our subscriber notes will see my margin notes here.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think one of my main issues is that this kind of looking back style of writing ends up being very factual.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's a being it all.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was autumn in New York.
[SPEAKER_00]: The towers had fallen a year ago.
[SPEAKER_00]: The city was reeling, getting into her moving and with the roommates.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know, I just found very, I'll very, like, factual things.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't really find a lot that was very surprising.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, even the mention of opening by talking about the twin towers falling a year ago, she didn't say that she's surprised that there's not a more somber atmosphere in the city.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's kind of just saying,
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it was just a beautiful cobalt sky October day, so I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just wasn't really finding where the surprises were, where the tension was.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was a lot of like, let me just bring you have to speed about where we are in, you know, early
[SPEAKER_00]: Thousands New York.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, even from the descriptions of what they were reading, again, like because this author tried to paint a picture of what, early 2000's life was like, it ends up just being factual.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, like, what they were wearing, you know, the finance guys, the parties that they would go to, I don't know, I just really felt like it was very factual, information which, you know, didn't really need to be very curious.
[SPEAKER_00]: I also felt like I don't know anything about her protagonist other than she came from Washington State.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the way that she talks about nature makes me think that she misses nature, which is what I kind of summarized, to the group.
[SPEAKER_00]: I also found the dialogue a little bit obvious, you know, it's like, you know, who are you?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm so, and so this is, you know, my last name, and then a guy gets cut off by a friend because they want to introduce them, says, come meet Mark from Blue Sky Capital.
[SPEAKER_00]: He closed a similar deal to Dixon last year.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just feel like if to find it's bros were speaking, it'd be like coming this guy from blue sky, it wouldn't be like blue sky capital.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just felt like the dialogue was a little bit stiff and I don't know, I was just having a bit of a hard time really feeling like swept away about the story because everything happened exactly the way that it was laid out that it would happen.
[SPEAKER_00]: Girl moves to New York, girl goes to a party, girl meets boy.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, that's a story that I've read numerous times.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think we all have.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's, it's not an unlikable story.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's more just how do we make it more surprising to the reader, which will make us want to turn the pages and with something like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of it is hinging on the love story.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're hoping that the reader is going to kind of come to these two characters and
[SPEAKER_00]: want to watch them fall in love in the attention, that's going to create, but it's a very basic meet-cute.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we're having a very straightforward beginning here, so now I'm a lot of surprises, unfortunately.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks, Khali.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, CC.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to echo everything Carly said, it's like she was in my brain and speaking of being inside someone's brain, I did not feel like I was inside a protagonist's psyche.
[SPEAKER_01]: The protagonist is reading more like a pure narrator as opposed to a protagonist.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, on the difference, it comes down to a pure narrator, is giving you a bird's eye view.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's more focused on, you know, to Carly's point being factual as opposed to being
[SPEAKER_01]: and having everything filtered through those lenses of what makes a human being, you know, unique and special.
[SPEAKER_01]: I also felt like the story set up was fairly obvious and that the tension was leaking.
[SPEAKER_01]: Up there's a line which I can't find, but it essentially reads, you know, this was before I met Kai, you know, before Kai changed my life or something like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then a couple pages later, there's a line and isolated line, very good, that says I didn't see him watching me at first.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we know she's about to talk to someone, a him.
[SPEAKER_01]: And in my brain, I was like, the storyteller wants us to think that the him is Kai, but it's not going to be.
[SPEAKER_01]: I bet this is how she's gonna surprise us, because this is how you torture readers and love story.
[SPEAKER_01]: You promise they're going to meet this person and then that person leads with their best friend.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or you meet someone else, you meet his best friend or his brother and to make it messy, to make it complicated.
[SPEAKER_01]: But no, we actually met Kai.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was a dialogue where we met Kai,
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, it's a taste thing, but for me, it's too obvious, you're, it's too passive.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I'm feeling like a passive passenger, and I don't want to, I want to feel like an active co-pilot.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, it didn't work for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, thank you so much, Colleanne CC, as always for your brilliant and helpful insights for anyone who wants to submit full books with hugs, go to our website, the shitaboutwriting.com and you can submit your work there and we look forward to critiquing it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Next week we'll have another author on the podcast and after that we'll have another books with hugs.
[SPEAKER_02]: By everyone, CC Lyra is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you'd like to query CC, please refer to the Submission Guidelines at www.wshermon.com.
[SPEAKER_02]: Carly Waters is a literary agent at PS Literary Agency, but a work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Carly on this podcast,
[SPEAKER_02]: are solely that of her as a podcast co-host, and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS Literary Agency.