[SPEAKER_02]: This podcast is frankly one of the saddest and biggest scams that happen in the dog training or the dog space in general.
[SPEAKER_02]: Millions of dollars of year, hundreds of thousands of dogs and their owners are basically taking advantage of.
[SPEAKER_02]: Their time, their money, their energy is stripped away from them.
[SPEAKER_02]: and sucked out of the valuable time that they have with their dog and this is a really frustrating thing that I see as a professional but it's also something that dog owners like it's a very underground underspoken thing that dog owners have no idea
[SPEAKER_02]: that they're falling into this unfortunate hole in scam.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you guys follow me on my YouTube channel, I mean, you've seen me.
[SPEAKER_02]: And what I'm not doing is I'm not calling out trainers and I'm not calling out companies, but what I am doing is I'm making sure dog owners know that they are falling for a scam and a trap and it's just not only taking your time, but your money with your dog and potentially even making things significantly worse.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm frankly really sick of,
[SPEAKER_02]: Hearing and seeing dog owners and dogs have to go through this and so this podcast is going to be absolutely huge And I really hope that you guys share it and you post it do anything you can to expose what's happening to poor dog owners and dogs out there
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[SPEAKER_02]: So enjoy the podcast guys.
[SPEAKER_02]: Talk to you in the next one.
[SPEAKER_02]: What do you guys got going on?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think you should start.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay so we're just interested in trying to get a little bit of
[SPEAKER_01]: fair still relatively new to us.
[SPEAKER_01]: He we adopted him in the summer.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we've had him with us about seven months now.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he's about four and I'm he's four and a half.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's a pomsky and he kind of favors the Husky side definitely he's like a larger a larger pomsky's about 50 pounds.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he we think he we were told that he had a little bit of training when he came to us, but when we asked the previous.
[SPEAKER_01]: owner, what kind of training she had done and what worked for him.
[SPEAKER_01]: She said, we'll just don't ever lie to him.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we don't really know what we were like, okay, well, we'll see what happens.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he definitely has some understanding of some basic things, but he doesn't always follow through with them.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he like, he sits really well and he does a lot of things in the house really nicely, but he doesn't do other places.
[SPEAKER_01]: We live in Brooklyn.
[SPEAKER_01]: We live in Brooklyn, New York.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's as we were working with a trainer here
[SPEAKER_01]: short amount of time.
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess we have like four sessions with her.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Ultimately, and she helped us kind of try to try to give us some ideas of how to help him outside and then eventually was like, I think maybe he's really anxious perhaps you should think about getting him some medication.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we've been in conversations with our vet about that and he started some he started on reconcile in January and that seems to have
[SPEAKER_01]: but he has trouble outside and we're not sure and with people in our home and we're not sure whether he ever had experience with that as a puppy.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was in a house with a very ethical breeder who loved him dearly, he was a stud dog and she stopped being her stud dog and she stopped being able to give him the attention that she needed.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's why he was up for adoption
[SPEAKER_01]: He's a love bug with us.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's super playful.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's pretty calm when it's just us in the house.
[SPEAKER_01]: But he doesn't do great with other people coming in.
[SPEAKER_01]: He gets very territorial and we live in an apartment building.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he also doesn't love like the tight spaces or the other dogs in the building.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he gets kind of
[SPEAKER_01]: And see when there are other people in the keys okay when we're all in the elevator, but then they leave and he's like, what are you doing?
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know where you're going.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when we're outside, he's very reactive to other dogs.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's gotten a little bit better on the reconcile with like, not lunging at them, but he will often like, you know, stand on his timelakes and do a little fist pumping, which sometimes is playful, but more often like I want to be with that dog immediately.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're working with him.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not doing that, but we don't have a lot of great strategies except for just holding the leash tightly and being like, don't go, don't go, don't go and hold him back.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like not super effective.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and the previous trainer we worked with suggested, you know, trying to give him treats every time he didn't do that or having him really engaged with us and give him a treat, but he wasn't taking treats outside, which is another reason that he she recommended.
[SPEAKER_01]: seeing if we could get him on the reconcile.
[SPEAKER_01]: We haven't tried it since then because we've been kind of trying to do just one thing at a time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but he's been on it for about six weeks and he seems pretty, it's like, he's my regulator.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he does listen to us more.
[SPEAKER_00]: He doesn't pull as much.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's checking in with us a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's not pulling the leash anymore when we're outside as much anyway.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, let's see if it's agitated.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: He also seems to have a problem with men.
[SPEAKER_00]: aggressive towards men.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's very unsure.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And also, I mean, the previous person did say there was any sort of trauma regarding that.
[SPEAKER_00]: But often have noticed if I'm walking, you know, in one of the streets.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's just a man behind me talking loudly, just like having conversation, mining his own business, he'll start to turn around and start to get antsy.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then,
[SPEAKER_00]: If even if I have a conversation with the man because he's we're just talking about the dog or whatever he's he's okay for a bit like I'm showing that I'm not feeling threatened by this person or whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: But then after a while he starts to get a little lunge and I'm like, okay, we're going to keep moving forward.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's hard.
[SPEAKER_01]: He returns with us really pretty well, but then he'll keep like looking back behind.
[SPEAKER_01]: For a while, we were taking him to the park, which we loved and he loves to like run around and he would occasionally want to go play with other dogs, but then something switches very quickly and he gets angry and it seems like It's gotten into two fights, but that was over his ball.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're not doing these days.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he was resource guarding the ball.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then we were like, let's not take the ball because he's freaking out and then he would go after other dogs balls.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we were like, let's not go to the park at all.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, man.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, but he loves it so much that we would love to be able to, you know, take him out to run around off leash.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he was, he would come back no problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we think it was a lot of anxiety.
[SPEAKER_01]: But now we're also like great.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the anxiety seems more in control and we need to help him with like behaviors.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's gotten situated too.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we also like him to,
[SPEAKER_00]: Of course, listen to us more of the Husky side is very dominant, so like, calm, and he's like, he's like, if I want to, I'm so excited.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and getting more acclimated to other dogs as well so that we can, you know, walk, dude without stress.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, have a happy play and with other dogs.
[SPEAKER_01]: Potentially be able to board him if we're traveling in places that are like open spaces, and not, you know, caging him up for weeks.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I was just looking up the the medication.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was just wasn't familiar with it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's an SSRI.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I was just checking it out, just to see what it is.
[SPEAKER_02]: And what it's what it's about.
[SPEAKER_02]: So a couple of things I would say, you know, the low hanging fruit here is addressing that the dog is is likely insecure.
[SPEAKER_02]: excuse me.
[SPEAKER_02]: So with that said, I think it's important to, because we always, like the cause and the solution typically is the reason why you're, you know, maybe struggling with certain things like some of the reactivity towards men or people exiting the elevator or,
[SPEAKER_02]: like the ball stuff at the park is actually you know pretty normal you know dog behavior I mean obviously we you know we want to we want to correct it but that's not something that is caused from anxiety or yeah the insecurities it's just a dog being a dog that probably maybe didn't get balls where he was your toys in general or whatever so anyway that's that's you know that's a separate thing but that's easy enough to understand
[SPEAKER_02]: So a lot of the, so the, the barking like when people exit is typically like a a confidence thing, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So kind of like a sucker punch, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Where, you know, somebody's like, hey, did you say something to me like, no, I mean, I didn't say anything.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's like, I, I don't know, we're talking about, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And then as soon as they turn their back, like, oh, I'm the yell at them, you know?
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's kind of like this, this, this, this, um,
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, like this little man syndrome, most where it's like this insecure kind of cheap shot, you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it really has that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, definitely a little social climber.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and that's confidence, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's just, I mean, it's just same thing with people, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like people who are really secure with themselves to confident don't do that, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: They're, they're, that's okay, you know?
[SPEAKER_02]: So, so I think with, so with some of the stuff that you're dealing with with the, with the, with the, with the barking at the, the men too,
[SPEAKER_02]: And I know that you mentioned reacting to people when you have like in the building so I know we're barking at people when they leave the elevator which I can I that makes sense What's happening like when people come to your home or how to what's that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, she's actually not he doesn't really bark at people outside he lunges towards them and like it's not always like aggressively lunging he stands on his hind legs and he does this little like you know fist bumping
[SPEAKER_01]: which he does also when he's excited.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's a little hard to tell, like, whether that's he wants to play with them or whether he's like, get out of my space.
[SPEAKER_01]: Does it seem to mean both things?
[SPEAKER_01]: Some, yeah, depends on that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, on time.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, he's not small, but he's not massive.
[SPEAKER_00]: But when he's doing that, he's like, maybe you don't forefoot tall.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so people are like, what is happening?
[SPEAKER_01]: But when people come into the apartment, that is definitely aggressive, like, get out of my space behavior.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're smiling.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's snarling, he's barking, he's latching towards them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Had a few people who like we're able, who are very kind and we're like, we're trying to work on this with our dog, can you be very sweet and come over anyway, so they come over and he like barks and barks and then he'll chill out eventually we have him on a leash like away from them, they sit very still, they don't interact with them and they, you know, toss in some treats occasionally and then he will calm down for a little bit and then remember he's supposed to be bad at them.
[SPEAKER_01]: So then he like, you know, starts barking at them again.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we've had to start kind of moving him to the other room.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have just a small one bedroom apartment and he goes into the other room.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he's okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: He really doesn't bark in there.
[SPEAKER_01]: He doesn't how he's like, he's just chill.
[SPEAKER_01]: And go check on him and he's like, calm.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, knowing that there are so people here because we're talking and enjoying, but then when he sees them again, he's, you know, he's like, I was like, get out.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And in that makes sense too, like it's a confidence thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: He doesn't want the conflict.
[SPEAKER_02]: He doesn't want the smoke.
[SPEAKER_02]: He just, like, if he feels obligated a bit, like he feels like I'm going to react to you, but it's kind of like I'm going to draw first and the person's like, I'm not drawn.
[SPEAKER_02]: like, I don't know why.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: How it's like, I'm, um, this isn't a fight.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know why or, you know, exhibiting these behaviors.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's classic confidence.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's classic insecurity because those two are like, really closely related and in behaviors and they kind of blend often times externally.
[SPEAKER_02]: We see it a lot.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, the dog doesn't have, so, so when you're outside and you see other people or whatever, you know, a lot of that like lunge is kind of like, I don't, it's like this almost fighter flight thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and he's not like a meaner aggressive dog.
[SPEAKER_02]: So he's not going to like go bite somebody but he might like jump or Insight he might bark and react and you know the whole showing the teeth is a very like I'm I'm big and bad like don't hurt me and the person's like I'm I don't plan on hurting you so that's a confidence thing right it's like again.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like with humans you're just
[SPEAKER_02]: in the grocery store and somebody like looks at you would you say you're like nothing yeah yeah it's like I didn't say anything like that's an issue with that with that thing right so it's it's like this confidence of not being confident with yourself so that's it's classical classical confidence building exercises so
[SPEAKER_02]: My suggestion and I've seen this, you know, a bazillion times and it doesn't, it doesn't surprise me that you guys haven't been able to really break through sustainably I'm happy to hear that you've decreased some of the anxiety with the medication and increased some of the engagement
[SPEAKER_02]: because the SSRI, again, is just kind of looking at what it does and what it does is it's just like any SSRI, just improves the serotonin and it kind of gives you that jump.
[SPEAKER_02]: But my suggestion with the dog that doesn't have the way that I'm looking at this zooming all the way out, we have a dog that doesn't
[SPEAKER_02]: instinctual, you know, I've been beaten trauma, I need to get protective, I have a real big reason to be anxious.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have a real big reason to be fearful.
[SPEAKER_02]: So again, you know, and I kind of equate it to this with with humans as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, you know, if a person's a little anxious about a situation, like, I personally, I would rather try to figure out how we can build confidence instead of trying to bring medication on board because it's like, oh, I don't want to go on stage.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like,
[SPEAKER_02]: You can do it, you know, it's scary.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know you're scared, but if you do it, you know, that sort of thing versus You know, some serious trauma that had happened and you know, getting some medication on board to really help them and cope with that Because of those issues in the past and so that's the way I'm looking at this is this isn't a dog that isn't screaming out like
[SPEAKER_02]: there's a ton that warranted reasons why we need to be really anxious or be fearful of men or be unsure of people and be not confident when people come in.
[SPEAKER_02]: So my approach for something like this is really to address the issues assertively by allowing the dog to understand what they're doing is wrong.
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's a number of things that you can lean on for this, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So right now what we're doing is the dog is doing the exhibiting behaviors that we don't like to see.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we're reactive maybe to people on leash or men or when people leave the elevator and when people come to your home.
[SPEAKER_02]: and right now it seems to no fault to you, which is why we're talking, but now it seems like we're avoiding the situation by removing the dog.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's not a bad thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would rather you like, I always say no training is better than bad training, so allowing the dog to sit there and growl and sorrow is probably not beneficial.
[SPEAKER_02]: But if you're like, hey, I don't know what to do, I'm just going to move you in the other room.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a better option, but of course it's not sustainable and it's not solving the problem, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not, it's not why are you doing this, like this doesn't make sense, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So things that I've done in the past for dogs like this,
[SPEAKER_02]: For an example is I work on skill sets that allow me to help dismantle the behaviors, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So for an example, really easy format would be a dog's pulling me teach him heel.
[SPEAKER_02]: But we want our dog to come back, we teach him recall.
[SPEAKER_02]: So if a dog is reacting, we teach him leave it, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So instead of just, and I know that you guys want this and that's why we're having a conversation is we want our dog,
[SPEAKER_02]: to actually modify his thinking.
[SPEAKER_02]: We want his brain to go, oh, this is so big deal.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like people come over, I can handle this, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: I've worked through these kinks.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now again, I'm not against medication at all.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's extremely valuable, but when you're missing a big piece to the puzzle, of just correcting the dog when they do something wrong, and we skip that whole part and go to medication,
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that that's really just avoiding the, like you're, you're kind of dancing around the actual issue.
[SPEAKER_02]: For example, like this is, and I've done this many times.
[SPEAKER_02]: I had a Australian shepherd that had come in very similar.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's on my Instagram actually because it was really one of those.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, crap moments in my career and of course working with dogs every day for over a decade.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's this really stood out.
[SPEAKER_02]: They came in.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll show you and shepherd similar behaviors just really intense like turn turn what whatever you guys are dealing with up by 10.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean really reactive explosive jumping growling snarling turning around trying to bite the on
[SPEAKER_02]: like really stressed like the dogs so so the owner came in and this is very similar to what you guys are doing and what we did was we're a really nice solution for them like many dogs that we work with so the owners came in they say hey we got to stop this it's stressful for me and I go look how stressful it is for the dog like that's something that we got to consider too like it's stressful for both of you this is not good right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So she was on a bunch of medications, so it was a very extreme case of what you're dealing with, but in the same ballpark.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, like six, she brought the bag in.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was like six or seven medications in the morning and the afternoon and the evening.
[SPEAKER_02]: And they just, and so we worked with them.
[SPEAKER_02]: They were in like what we call a transformation program at my facility, so it's like two day program.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's just like a reset, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So people come in with these issues, but we also work on relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I said, okay, so they said, yeah, people come over, we grow, we bark, we lunge.
[SPEAKER_02]: I said, so have you corrected the dog, like have you told the dog no before?
[SPEAKER_02]: They say, well, we do tell him no, we hush him.
[SPEAKER_02]: We pull him back on the harness, we put him in the other room, all that stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I said, okay, but that could be a form of corrections for a very, very, very, very, very, very,
[SPEAKER_02]: Sensitive dog maybe if you say hush, you know, I actually have a dog that's like if I just if I just Holler at her if she's doing something she's like, oh, sorry, and then she runs away She's like, I want to do it again, right, but most dogs are not going to exhibit that that amount of pressure and actually do anything
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I said, let's, so we put a slip leash on the dog and I have a video of it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So my Instagram, like I said, and the dog was, the dog was so reactive that I just put dogs on the TV and the dog was like freaking out on the TV.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I said, okay, so I corrected, I have the slip leash and I said, leave it, pop and the dog sat, looked at me and then looked back to the TV and then looked at me and I paid the dog and it was it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, and I always mentioned, this was years like two or three years ago.
[SPEAKER_02]: And of course, working with a lot of reactive dogs that case in particular, again, it's more extreme than what you're dealing with, but it was such a good example of They had worked with like two PhD behaviorists that had subscribed all this medication, but they skipped like this whole
[SPEAKER_02]: really foundational piece right that's like building the house and being like I don't know why I keep falling down keeps falling down.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like you don't have a foundation or you don't have two by fours or you don't you didn't nail them together.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like so instead of trying to figure out this really obscure thing and I'm not saying we shouldn't do the medication.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just saying a lot of times dogs with this minor reactivity or this minor insecurity.
[SPEAKER_02]: can can really be helped out of that situation and not only stop the reactivity but gain confidence, which is causing the reactivity, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's what I really want to try to do is have a ultimately sustainable fix to the issue by stopping the actual problem, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So.
[SPEAKER_02]: That would be my two things.
[SPEAKER_02]: Obviously, things aren't exactly where you want them to be.
[SPEAKER_02]: So what you're doing right now isn't working anyway.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I would just say like the good news is, like one of the main principles of modifying a dog's behavior is adding in some sort of correction to teach the dog in that moment that what they're doing is inappropriate.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's really been such a game changer for so many people and they go, oh, yeah So first of all, it's like, oh, yeah, that makes sense second of all the like, how do I do that?
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's so many again.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's there's many different ways every dog is different, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like if I'm working with 160 pound master if that's Going nuts like how I handle that situation is much different than I would handle, you know What's going on with you guys, but I think you know the principles are and I think you have to be on board with the principles and understand these really clearly
[SPEAKER_02]: Right now you haven't really told your dog what they're doing isn't appropriate.
[SPEAKER_02]: We we're pulling back Where we may be even saying no or leave it or yeah, but it's not be it's not being it's not being what we call enforced Right so so we have reinforcement and we have enforcement so reinforcement is Essentially trying to encourage something to happen again
[SPEAKER_02]: right so like so we think about positive reinforcement would be adding so positive is adding negative is taking away so when a dog does a sit when we say sit we add positive tripped reent so we're reent hey do this again I like this whole sit thing down leave it great so when we enforce things think of law enforcement
[SPEAKER_02]: However, you want to look at it that their job is to enforce certain things, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So when we say to a dog, we say, so there's two big things that you guys can get really better at, which is going to change your relationship with your dog.
[SPEAKER_02]: So the moment that you start recalibrating your training, the dog's going to look at you differently in a good way, where the confidence is going to be built back into the dog and you.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you guys are going to see a calmer dog.
[SPEAKER_02]: So the enforcement, like let's say, and even if you have a flat collar on a dog, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And you say dog sit, the dog says, oh, no, there's a squirrel in that tree, and you just pop the flat collar.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a correction, it's a, what it is, it's really just disrupting, hey, pay attention, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, and then the dog sits and put their butt in the ground, you go good sit, and then you try it again.
[SPEAKER_02]: And what happens is, is when you say sit, the goal is, is when you say sit the next time that I've just sit, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So the dog learned, I don't want to get in trouble, but then when the dog sits, then they also get paid.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's a win-win.
[SPEAKER_02]: You didn't need to correct the dog, listen the first time, and they got paid.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's kind of the sequence that we want.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, again, working with so many clients, that's one of the biggest things is they go, oh, we are correcting, but it's not, but again, then we'd say, okay, is it effective?
[SPEAKER_02]: Does it all care about it?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, well, no, it's like, okay, so we have, we have to move to something that the dog cares about, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: It would be like, you know, everybody's speeding 80 and a 30 in the cops out there, just waving his finger like,
[SPEAKER_02]: I wish you didn't, versus versus like flipping on the lights, pulling you over, got to go to core, blah, blah, blah, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's real enforcement for these things.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so for dogs, the interesting thing that I have found studying and secure fearfully reactive dogs and particular is what ends up happening is they almost look at you as
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, they're not handling it, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So let's say you get into an elephant example.
[SPEAKER_02]: You get into an elevator point of view of the dog.
[SPEAKER_02]: The dog goes, I don't know this person.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you guys are just, you know, being humans and talking and hanging out, whatever.
[SPEAKER_02]: Standing an elevator.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the dog goes, the person starts to walk.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you guys are going to, like, like, any other dog owner, you're going to go, stop.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, what are you doing?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just, uh, it's just Jane on room three.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, whatever.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're going to pull the dog back.
[SPEAKER_02]: and you're going to do everything you can to be like, hey, what are you doing?
[SPEAKER_02]: But of course dogs don't speak English, they don't, so what happens is you kind of like create more chaos.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then what I have found, and obviously I'd have to work with you in person to really see this, but I have found more times than not.
[SPEAKER_02]: We we kind of dig our selves a little bit deeper whole and we start taking steps back because the dog freaks out and has this like Wonder attack this person like what are we gonna do like this sucker punch thing and then you guys kind of add to the the game right?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like no stop don't and so instead of just very clearly nope
[SPEAKER_02]: Boop, just pop in the collar or just, hey, leave it, cause in that, cause in that disruptment of like, what are you doing?
[SPEAKER_02]: Right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And then when they stop, you go, good, leave it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so in my experience, the two things that you should be working on is creating skill sets in the home that the dog understands that you can apply in reality.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that means when the dog does react,
[SPEAKER_02]: We want a behavior to say like leave it or I don't suggest using no because we use it a lot.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I usually say leave it or whatever.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've heard people say enough, whatever you want to say.
[SPEAKER_02]: But the dog like any the way that you do this, you teach the skillset in the home and then you apply it in reality.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like literally like we go to school, we study and then we write same thing or like driving same thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: So practice and then apply.
[SPEAKER_02]: So let's say we're in the home, the dog likes.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think you said that he's not super interested in food when he's worked up, but is he interested in food at home or tree?
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah, okay, good.
[SPEAKER_02]: So what you would do is, there's like a, you would take that food, right, or the cable, or even the bone, or the tree, whatever, or even even, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: So what you would do is a lot of times we start like this.
[SPEAKER_02]: So how to recalibrate your relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: So the dog understands that when you say, hey, enough, it means something, because that's what creates confidence, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: The more times parents, dog owners say to not do something, and then we don't fall through, the more that, and even kids, I'm reading this book right now with these two psychologists, and they really talk about this, like how it affects them long-term, and then they end up just blowing off mom and dad their whole life.
[SPEAKER_02]: because they don't fall through, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: There's no accountability.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's important.
[SPEAKER_02]: So what we do is we kind of reframe and rewire this accountability process.
[SPEAKER_02]: So for an example, we would say, hey dog sit, the dog goes, okay, cool, give me some, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is common, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is where you start.
[SPEAKER_02]: So dogs, hey, pay me, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the dog, if you don't pay the dog, or even when you do pay the dog, the dog's in a pop right back up, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Cause, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: So two things happen.
[SPEAKER_02]: A, we probably taught them that that's what it is and that's our fault when actually sit should be you're going to sit here until I then release you right so it's it's a continual behavior until you have a break or release command.
[SPEAKER_02]: So for a lot of dog owners, sit just becomes almost like a novelty of sit, shake, down, roll over, play dead, whatever.
[SPEAKER_02]: But if it doesn't have any utility, there's really no, it's a party trick.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like there's no point in it, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: A sit, a stay, a heal, and a recall.
[SPEAKER_02]: in a place command or all things that have ginormous utility in our lives.
[SPEAKER_02]: It'd be like teaching kids, I mean, basic, I mean, we're all humans, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's teaching, yeah, exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just teaching them, you know, please, thank you, um, etc.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like it's just the foundation of life, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So,
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's that like a lot of people feel kind of like when my dog didn't listen, but also you're sit for your dog has been Two seconds pop your butt back up and then it's done and that's common and against not really your dog's fault.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not your fault because you don't know what you don't know but What I like to do is just set up basic thresholds To start holding your dog accountable in situations so you can start to reverse the whole role here because right now your dog's like
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel insecure, so I'm going to do this because nobody is really holding me accountable.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a free-for-all substitute teacher effect, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: I talk about the substitute teacher theory all the time, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And when I was in high school, I'm sure if you guys too, when a substitute walked in, you knew within like three to five seconds, whether or not you're continuing right where you left off with your main teacher or you're watching a movie in your thrown airplane paper airplanes, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's an immediate like, oh, you're going to let us get away with everything, you know, versus like, you know, the older lady coming in and being like, open up book, oh, okay, she's serious.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, so I always say like to reset that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So to start holding your dog accountable.
[SPEAKER_02]: And also to reset your relationship because those are two things because right now it's kind of a self perpetuating thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: The dog doesn't the dog is insecure and reactive and fearful potentially because the lack thereof also of the structure and discipline.
[SPEAKER_02]: And discipline comes from a Latin word of basically teach.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not this like I think especially in America discipline is now become like punishment and it's not discipline is just very like I'm going to teach you the structure of life like this is what I want you to do.
[SPEAKER_02]: like, hey, take out the trash type thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: So put the dog on the leash, ask, what's, what's the dog's name?
[SPEAKER_02]: Whiskey.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'll be easier.
[SPEAKER_02]: So Whiskey sit.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: If it's about in the ground, you say good sit.
[SPEAKER_02]: Give him a piece of food.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's probably going to pop right back up to new fault of his own.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you're just going to apply pressure on the leash.
[SPEAKER_02]: Nope, sit.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's going to likely put his butt on the ground.
[SPEAKER_02]: He might.
[SPEAKER_02]: Pomskis are as you know Drama drama dogs so you might get a little like like type of vocalization, but Actually, you know, that's the husky coming out, but I typically I typically just really clearly start to go no, no, no, sit.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're gonna so we're gonna hold the sit for so this is like a Win-win-win-win-win-win-win like for everybody.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're learning actual behaviors.
[SPEAKER_02]: We can apply in reality
[SPEAKER_02]: We're changing our our accountability structure and we're rebuilding confidence within our relationship because when I ask a dog to do something We follow through.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's really important.
[SPEAKER_02]: Same.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's the same exact thing like I have employees and stuff and if if I said hey You need to do this and they all didn't do it and I didn't do anything.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can get away with anything
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, so just kind of everything unravels at that point.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was to then of course.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't trust you I don't have confidence in you whatever you say doesn't that doesn't there's it doesn't you know So we say whiskey sit but in the ground pops back up a little bit of pressure up and you're just neutral so a lot of people
[SPEAKER_02]: They bark and I got shit like don't do that just very calmly pressure up right and we could talk about equipment after But again, it's just it has to be something that the dog actually cares about So it's typically in historically harnesses aren't good for something like this because harness was invented for the dog to pull on the leash safer and harder
[SPEAKER_02]: And so it doesn't have it in it doesn't have any action, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So the action is, I'll just show you have a Martin Gale collar right here, which is like a like an every day collar.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like what I use in my dogs every day.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's just this little Martin Gale and it has a little bit of action.
[SPEAKER_02]: You can see this little triangle.
[SPEAKER_02]: So like a flat collar would just be a flat and then a little Martin Gale and a flat collar is fine too.
[SPEAKER_02]: But you want a little bit of action.
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's a little bit of like, hey, talking to you because if you were to just pull on a flat collar,
[SPEAKER_02]: what you're actually trying to do is just get the dogs attention with these little pops.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, whiskey, sit, button the ground, pop up, and all you're doing is you're just kind of like, nope, like nagging them a little bit, like pressure up, and you know, probably put his butt back good, and you hold, and then you start including like a breaker release command.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's just important because again, like I and I don't know what you did with the other trainer But it sounds like you were likely probably going out Working on things trying to get paid trying to pay the dog with a bunch of food.
[SPEAKER_02]: He was disinterested and you probably did a lot of avoidance.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would assume
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, okay, and the read direction.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so like hey, we're gonna go this there's a problem.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's go this way and again It's the same thing with my son and like hey, we're gonna go to Gjitsu tonight like yeah, but like what if I like hey I understood all those emotions really like I get it But let's just go try and then he gets on the mat and he gets out and then he Paul flourishes and it's like man I know that that wasn't comfortable
[SPEAKER_02]: But we're not going to run from that, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because that does, like, so confidence is here and insecurities here.
[SPEAKER_02]: If we run from those little tiny things, it obviously fuels and flames and encourages, we're just going to run from our problems instead of handled them.
[SPEAKER_02]: To each his own, as you know, like every restaurant is different, every dog trainer's different.
[SPEAKER_02]: So sometimes when you work with a dog trainer who only applies positive reinforcement, if you look at the foundation of the four quadrants of how dogs animals in general learn,
[SPEAKER_02]: Positive reinforcement by definition is to teach and to mold to shape and to encourage behaviors.
[SPEAKER_02]: So when you have a dog that you're trying to discourage behaviors, that has a lot of limitations.
[SPEAKER_02]: And dog owners typically don't know that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So when you hire a dog trainer and they throw words out, like, we're just going to use positive reinforcement.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're like, great.
[SPEAKER_02]: That sounds awesome.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then when you're like, can we discourage this stuff?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, oh, yeah, we're just going to go the other way.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you're like, but yeah, we're like, that doesn't make sense.
[SPEAKER_02]: But my, my apartment's right.
[SPEAKER_02]: How are we going to, oh, we just go,
[SPEAKER_02]: Go around on the other side.
[SPEAKER_02]: So listen, it happens and it happens to everybody.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's totally like part of the process and it's, you don't know what you don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: So what I would do is just start with those little corrections.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hey, so again, this is going, I can't stress that there's a micro macro here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Micro is the dog's going to sit better, bigger picture is.
[SPEAKER_02]: Your dog's going to build confidence, your relationship is going to thrive.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you're going to start actually getting to the core of the reason why your dog's fearful in the first place because every time he had a oh What are you gonna do you guys were like yeah, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's go let's get out of here.
[SPEAKER_02]: So so right now.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like hey, and it's just really and when I say assertive
[SPEAKER_02]: assertive is a very calm like again my son who's won't have to.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's won.
[SPEAKER_02]: He goes up and grabs like a knife out of the, you know, the dishwasher.
[SPEAKER_02]: I go, nope.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just put, I'm not like yelling and to freak out.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Nope.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: assertive.
[SPEAKER_02]: Same like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we say whiskey sit puts his butt in the ground.
[SPEAKER_02]: He gets back up.
[SPEAKER_02]: Nope.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sit and he's going to be like, what the hell?
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the goal is is to break him when he's in the desire to behavior.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you're you're ending on a good note and you're
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, and then you do it again and again to have questions.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, because I mean to the point of like Yeah of like you know have reinforcing positive behaviors like when we talked to the other trainer And he's like, you know eating a sock because he wants a tension, and it's just very cute and sometimes we're trying not to laugh while he's doing that And he's clearly wanting to play
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, but we want him to drop it and then she's like, well, give him a treat.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, but it also feels then we're like reward.
[SPEAKER_03]: Correct.
[SPEAKER_00]: This would be great.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because then he just because he's smart.
[SPEAKER_00]: So then he'll be like, Oh, I want a treat.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to get a soft bingo.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's what it's like correct.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't, I don't quite see.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm all about.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do not punish anyone.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is like, how do we.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I don't go out looking for my clients, my clients find me for a reason and most of my clients have this same conversation.
[SPEAKER_02]: They go, hey, we hired two or three people and they just kept rewarding the things that we didn't like and it just, and it's not even like your question in it.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're like it didn't, you paid money to talk to me for a reason.
[SPEAKER_02]: So anyway, exactly right dogs are very opportunistic and their condition animals.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you give him one potato chip every little bag that you ruffle.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're like, oh, that's me.
[SPEAKER_02]: You get your leash, we're going for a walk, you get your keys, your guns, like dogs are condition animals.
[SPEAKER_02]: So they grab a sock, you get a retreat, bingo bingo.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you actually are encouraging the dog to do the things you don't want.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you're right by questioning that and going like, wait a minute.
[SPEAKER_02]: again same thing so here so that's a perfect example like the drop command or even the leave it right so so now that you have the structured idea of you want to ask the dog to do the behavior if they do it good or and you don't have to pay with food you can just say good sit like you know because sometimes you're not I want you to just be out I'd like you a train dog in my opinion excuse me it would be a dog that you can say down and they go boom and you say sin go do your
[SPEAKER_02]: sit, do, down, boom, come, boom, like, and you just say good, good, good, like that's a train dog.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that that's whatever one would want, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And the way that you get that is you, I mean, in the beginning, again, like, if I'm training with a dog for 15 minutes, 14 seconds, or 14 minutes and 55 seconds as positive reinforcement.
[SPEAKER_02]: But when a dog goes, no, I don't want to.
[SPEAKER_02]: Boom, little disruptant.
[SPEAKER_02]: Boom, look, hey, pay attention, pay attention.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you just do that with a leash because it's different with kids when they're like, oh, yeah, look, look, hey, over here, like, you know, I'm obviously not putting a leash on my kids.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just going, hey, right, and so how do you do that with dogs, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: When they're, when they're head is looking like this, like, you use the leash, that's why the leash and collars are invented.
[SPEAKER_02]: So same thing, so for an example,
[SPEAKER_02]: So, okay, now we have that, okay, so that's the format and you're going to copy and paste it in everything.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, for an example, the leave it, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So, same thing, dog, so whisky, on leash, on collar.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we can talk about equipment after.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's not as important.
[SPEAKER_02]: The format of understanding this is very important.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, let's say you get your treat, you put it on the ground and the dog goes,
[SPEAKER_02]: I did this yesterday with a really funny blue healer.
[SPEAKER_02]: He had a big blocky head.
[SPEAKER_02]: I said he looked like a wrought wiler and a blue healer body and we did this beautifully.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I just did this with a couple of dogs yesterday.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a big part of not only relationship building but also using the leave it in reality.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because it's applicable to barking at people, barking at other dogs, socks, toys, treats, etc.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we go out, put the food on the ground, he goes, whoop, and he goes for it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Leave it, and all you're doing it, nope, nope.
[SPEAKER_02]: And what you don't want to do is you don't want the leash to get taught and then pull him back because that actually doesn't do anything, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So again, if you're likely using harness, if the dog pulls at the end and you pull him back, it actually doesn't discourage the behavior, just kind of pulls him.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can frustrate him actually more and actually encourage them to dig deeper.
[SPEAKER_02]: So what you're trying to do is when you take your leash and you just pop it, you want to make sure it's not tight.
[SPEAKER_02]: So let's say, you know, you have a nice you and your leash.
[SPEAKER_02]: The dog is about to lunge.
[SPEAKER_02]: Nope.
[SPEAKER_02]: Bunk.
[SPEAKER_02]: And just think of that noise.
[SPEAKER_02]: Don't dunk, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just a, it's like a blunt like dunk, dunk.
[SPEAKER_02]: And what'll happen is, it's the dog's just going to sit there and look at you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Good leave it.
[SPEAKER_02]: pay with the food, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So the dog never gets that food on the ground.
[SPEAKER_02]: So again, two things, you start creating structure and discipline.
[SPEAKER_02]: When you say something, there's accountability and also the dog is going to start looking at you going, huh?
[SPEAKER_02]: You're in control.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now this is great.
[SPEAKER_02]: What else would you like me to do?
[SPEAKER_02]: Which then of course will really start to work on the confidence side.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, the dog goes, I don't really know what to do.
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't really know what to do because every time that I feel, you know, I get pulled back and we run away and whatever.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so now what we're doing is we're just very assertively.
[SPEAKER_02]: in a very loving way, just nope, nope.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so the dog knows like you can't have that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So the goal would be when you say leave it.
[SPEAKER_02]: The dog has to like, when a dog really wants something, regardless if it's out of insecurity or fear, or in some cases straight aggression, or in some cases it's motivation of prey drive or food drive or hunt drive, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Who's squirrel or food?
[SPEAKER_02]: Food's in the ground, I want this.
[SPEAKER_02]: if you don't have a consequence for the dog wanting to get to that, it's not going to work.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I, I, I, I'm not in, you aren't either, you know, but, you can't be naive to animals, like they're just, they're animals, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's a good set up to do to start going with the leave it, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So you put out the thing the dog wants, you put it down,
[SPEAKER_02]: And what I do is I just circle it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just walk around it and we work on our leave it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So whiskey leave it and what'll happen?
[SPEAKER_02]: I can almost promise you guys this if you work on this today.
[SPEAKER_02]: What'll happen is within five minutes, 10 at the max.
[SPEAKER_02]: What's going to happen is he's going to look at that treat and then look back up at you and you're going to pay him.
[SPEAKER_02]: Good leave it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you've used what we call a balanced approach on, again, there's four quadrants and how animals learn typically.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we use a lot of positive reinforcement, adding reinforcement, and now we're using negative, or I'm sorry, we're using positive punishment, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So we're adding a correction, nope, nope, and what'll happen is is the here's the beauty of this, and this is the important thing I was telling about that Australian Shepherd that came in with a pharmacy of drugs, what'll happen is is you just say leave it, you say sit, you say down, you say place that I just does it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's the sustainability is the dog goes I don't want to get trouble or I want to get paid or regardless like there's dogs who will go I still want a bark, but I'm not going to so I want to get in trouble You'll have dogs that'll go I'm gonna go to my place because I want food and I love food like you'll have two different things You can use positive reinforcement and positive punishment
[SPEAKER_02]: And the the predication of the success is kind of it's kind of out of your hands Like the dog will the you're gonna have different personalities like and I have two personalities I have a very protective master.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I have a shepherd my shepherd is like I just want to do whatever you want me to do that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure I'll do it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, food cool.
[SPEAKER_02]: If not that's fine.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm good like he's she's very
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll just do what you want me to do because I want to, I want to please you, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm as like a dog's dog, like really, just want to do what I say.
[SPEAKER_02]: My master of completely different things.
[SPEAKER_02]: Stubborn, pushy.
[SPEAKER_02]: If I tell him the place, he's like, oh, fine, because you're just going to, you know, he'll go and he'll sit there and a big, do a half to, like, it's completely different breed.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, so you kind of like balance these things out with dogs, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So you give him an option, like you, you quite literally, once the dog understands the fundamentals
[SPEAKER_02]: If you disobey whatever it is, leave it, heal, sit, stay, place anything that you say in the dog knows.
[SPEAKER_02]: You guys are kind of like working on two different things you're working on, building the behaviors and skills.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like the foundation, heal, recall, place.
[SPEAKER_02]: You have the dog park, you see a ball, oh crap, come, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: These things have to matter.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you're developing the skills, you're developing the skill sets and which you're going to apply in reality.
[SPEAKER_02]: but then you're also creating a healthy and understanding relationship where the dog knows I have to do this because I don't want to get trouble or have to just because I want to get paid or whatever the case is.
[SPEAKER_02]: But if you do it right, there's no equipment involved after you're done training.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just the dog does it, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's the beauty of it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so that's where I find a lot of dog owners struggle the most.
[SPEAKER_02]: And
[SPEAKER_02]: is they get in this very unrealistic, unnatural way of let's come out with a bunch of food.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, the dog doesn't care about the food.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, when you see a problem, go the other way.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, okay, but what if I have to go two things?
[SPEAKER_02]: What if I have to go there?
[SPEAKER_02]: And also, I actually want my dog to get over this.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's a problem with with with with trying to to do that type of training.
[SPEAKER_02]: And listen, my job is
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, for a very long time has been to help dogs and if there was a, I try to hone it, it's not a, it's the, the most successful efficient way that I have found to train a dog and if there's anything different out there, I'm all over it because it makes me look good, it helps me become more successful and it helps more dogs and this, this whole format, you know, if you go to my YouTube channel, you'll see it hunt like quite literally in 4K hundreds of times.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I'm very confident that that'll help.
[SPEAKER_02]: So does that format make sense?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, for sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sorry, did you have a...
[SPEAKER_00]: I was just thinking, we just had a conversation with our vet and like earlier today, just because it was the recheck of his dosage and whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's on a lot of dosage.
[SPEAKER_00]: But she was also talking about
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not saying like some trainers often try to also train away the warning signs of the dog, you know, how they're feeling like whether they want to park or grow out because they're uncomfortable or feeling threatened or whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I guess I was just wondering like how like letting your dog express itself.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, as well as like allowing it, making sure that it's doing what you want to do like yeah, she mentioned that it was very she was like the worst thing that can happen is you train away all those behaviors and then they bite someone.
[SPEAKER_01]: or they bite something and you haven't seen the warning and then that's very satisfying for them because they've gotten out that frustration.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's an immediate response so then they start biting more.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we don't want that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, of course.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because he doesn't bite at all at the moment.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we were, yeah, we could just talk a little bit about that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely, such a good question.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm very happy you asked that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So a couple things, veterinarians, just in general, I have a lot of veterinarian friends.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have a podcast.
[SPEAKER_02]: And a lot of the veterinarians who come on, like they're very open, like we don't know anything about dog training, we don't know anything about dog behavior.
[SPEAKER_02]: So a lot of veterinarians, you have to take with the green assault because they don't do any study or practice about dog behavior at all, like zero.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the other thing, and it's a warranted experience, but again, it's like it's coming from a place of
[SPEAKER_02]: fear of like, I don't want this to happen.
[SPEAKER_02]: So on the surface, it may, you may, you could think that, but I can tell you right now.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just like with kids, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: So same thing with dogs.
[SPEAKER_02]: When there's a dog that's misbehaving to a point where it's causing so much stress that you have to medicate the dog.
[SPEAKER_02]: this is an issue like this isn't a so what she's probably referring to and this is this would be applicable not to you but in some situations and I've worked with some dogs who have killed people killed dogs very yeah nasty stuff like dogs who yes we're talking multiple punctures family artery bleeds like nasty stuff yes so so yeah you can see your faces like that's not your dog
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, and you're not, and you're not, and I'm not trying to scare you what I'm trying to say is is I have a huge spectrum of cases, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So what I have seen in the past is dogs who are maybe resource-guarding.
[SPEAKER_02]: So they grab this sock and they're over here and you go over.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you go, hey, give me that and they're like, that potentially could be a rattlesnake trying to say, Hey, if you come closer, I'm going to bite you.
[SPEAKER_02]: So a couple of things, that doesn't make it appropriate, that doesn't, that does not warrant this behavior.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that type of stuff is more or less like what this person may be, like what the veterinarian's talking about is if we eliminate or disable the ability for the dog to growl and say, I'm going to bite you.
[SPEAKER_02]: then you're just gonna, you could potentially, and this isn't common, but you could put, because you're still gonna get a growl, you could potentially take away the sheath showing and the dog just bites.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a very, very, very low risk of that happening, but that's not, that's apples to oranges, that is not your dog at all.
[SPEAKER_02]: Your dog is on the leash going, ha ha!
[SPEAKER_02]: What are you doing?
[SPEAKER_02]: What are we doing?
[SPEAKER_02]: Your dog isn't going.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you come one step closer, I'm going to actually hurt you really bad.
[SPEAKER_02]: Your dog is scared and fearful and what your dog needs right now is structure discipline and really showing what they're doing.
[SPEAKER_02]: So like for an example, you're out for a walk with your dog and your dog sees a man and you go, hey, good to see how and your dog goes, ah yeah, like your dog isn't instinctually going, I can't control myself, I must attack.
[SPEAKER_02]: Your dog is going, I don't know what the hell to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: So some trainers and even veterinarians and I talk about this quite often, I actually have a talk here in a little bit for a conference that I'm doing.
[SPEAKER_02]: And one of the things we're going to
[SPEAKER_02]: So some people will talk about suppression to your point and you want me to talk on this a little bit.
[SPEAKER_02]: So some people will say, we don't want to suppress the dog to a point where they just don't want to do stuff, but that would be like, if a kid, again, goes to take a knife and I go, hey, I'm not going to helicopter parent, just do it, go ahead, like, no, you know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a time and a point where you guys is dog parents.
[SPEAKER_02]: you have to step up and go hit, this is inappropriate.
[SPEAKER_02]: This man that I am having a conversation with you do not get the part, what are you doing?
[SPEAKER_02]: This isn't appropriate.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, your grandma coming over for tea or whatever and your dog's going, hey, get the hell out of here, like these are things that you can step in and go, that is inappropriate.
[SPEAKER_02]: and I won't I don't want to see that again.
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's things that there's so to the veterinary point.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's things that we appropriately and worn to the and safely need to punish and correct.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we say this isn't appropriate.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're causing unnecessary stress to yourself.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and you're causing unnecessary stress to everybody.
[SPEAKER_02]: I need to let you know that this isn't appropriate.
[SPEAKER_02]: The other side of that is the dog going.
[SPEAKER_02]: So here's how it typically goes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so I come over to your house.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, you have a slip leash on your dog and your whiskey goes.
[SPEAKER_02]: The hell are you doing here?
[SPEAKER_02]: Get out of here!
[SPEAKER_02]: Who are you?
[SPEAKER_02]: Why are you here?
[SPEAKER_02]: We're barking and we're lunging and of course if you let him go he's just going to come up and bark at me.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's not going to listen.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's like a 2% killer chance out there.
[SPEAKER_02]: Very few dogs are these really mean aggressive dogs and it's very, very rare.
[SPEAKER_02]: I deal with them maybe maybe once a year dealing with reacted dogs every day so it's a very rare.
[SPEAKER_02]: So then what you do?
[SPEAKER_02]: You have your leash on so you're not giving your dog the freedom to just get out of here What are you doing like this little like you know, and you you'll leave it correction
[SPEAKER_02]: So now what happens is because the other thing that I've seen over the years with dog training has been, well, if you correct the dog when they're trying to communicate or correct the dog when they're barking at somebody, you can make them be uncomfortable with that thing even more.
[SPEAKER_02]: But the reality is if we understand conditioning and we understand how animals think, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: is the dog barks and reacts, we correct the dog, we say, hey knock it off, what are you doing?
[SPEAKER_02]: What are you doing?
[SPEAKER_02]: And they go, and they stop, good leave it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the person is still standing right there.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then maybe I walk over to your couch and sit down and he goes, no, don't sit there and you go, hey knock it off, leave it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Correction again.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the dog, yeah, the dog looks it and goes, oh shit.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then you go, good leave it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then what ends up happening is the
[SPEAKER_02]: And they go, you're not so bad.
[SPEAKER_02]: Good leave it bang and then they get a cookie stuffed in their face.
[SPEAKER_02]: They go, oh, I'm just going to act like this from now on.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like this person isn't a threat and not only are they not a threat, but I'm getting paid.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is wonderful.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's do it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Can you come over tomorrow?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like the goal, like behavior modification.
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's, there is a time in a place where you suppress behaviors, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So for an example.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, you bring your, you bring your dog in your dog loves the water.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're out for a walk, you're in Central Park, they see a big body of water.
[SPEAKER_02]: Your dog goes, I'm gonna go.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're suppressing your dog, you know, you're staying in a heel because I'm not chasing you around this pond and you're not getting wet.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: So there is natural suppression that we do, but, but it just, you have to look at it responsibly realistically and fairly, like when some people will say, like, if I don't know, it's for an example to say, what we don't want to suppress any of this stuff, it's like,
[SPEAKER_02]: Suppressions part of life like yeah, I'm going I'm going 30 and a 30 and I'm late because I don't want to but I am going to right You know things like this to happen all the time This is not really what we're talking about this is a dog that is going I don't know what to do Who are you right and then I'm I'm lashing out and you guys are going okay?
[SPEAKER_02]: This is stressful.
[SPEAKER_02]: What are we doing and then all you have to do?
[SPEAKER_02]: is leave it correction.
[SPEAKER_02]: The dog remembers leave it because he lunge at the food and give me give me give me the food.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's the same principle.
[SPEAKER_02]: I want this, I want this, I want this, you go leave it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So when you use leave it in the elevator when people come over, it's applicable, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: The dog understands it.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the skill set, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Same thing when we teach our dogs how to walk nicely in the leash.
[SPEAKER_02]: they want to be in front and they have four legs we have two they have to walk in slow motion right it's suppression for sure like they don't want to do it but they do and they're happy to do it because they get paid and they get love and rewards but you I'm I would love a follow up from you guys because
[SPEAKER_02]: I just know that you're going to see such a big change because it's like, you know, it's like, you call on a mechanic and saying, this car won't start.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've tried everything.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I've got the, and I'm like, you put gas in it.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're like, oh, gas.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, you guys have just missed.
[SPEAKER_02]: You guys have just missed this one singular thing and to be fair to you.
[SPEAKER_02]: And, and, and, and I'm very empathetic to this because again, you just don't, you don't know what you don't know, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So you're working with the train and again, I've done this.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you're working with the trainer and they're
[SPEAKER_02]: This is interesting so but but I really just I don't I just want to stop the barking though Is there a way it's like well we could we could try some education to decrease some of the you know stress and anxiety But it's but but my suggestion would be that I want to build a more confident dog So we have less anxiety.
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to build a more secure dog a more structured dog I want to dog to look at me and go what would you like me to do next?
[SPEAKER_02]: That will build like that really healthy relationship, and we have taken like dogs who come into our board and train program We have ween them off behaviors and by the time they go home.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're like such there are well-behaved dog But they don't have any medication on board because they're dog owners just like you who go through the system and They they unfortunately just kind of get rerouted, but you get it's not it
[SPEAKER_02]: It's the only reason why it's unfortunate is because you've just wasted time and money.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not like you can't backtrack.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not like damage has been done or anything like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel bad because you're just missing a really key component and I really feel confidently that you get yourself a slip collar.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can email you over some options and I would suggest that you guys can just take a look at and you can either order them online or you live in New York City.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's you got everything so you could just go get something.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I really suggest, like, trying to allow your dog, like giving your dog boundaries is the most loving thing you could do.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: We do not disagree with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're just trying to, we want to make sure that it's that what we're doing is effective, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I think we've been sort of like, well, maybe if we do this and like he has become more responsive to us when we are walking him like he's looking to us more for guidance at like side, you know,
[SPEAKER_00]: Because he used to not us.
[SPEAKER_00]: He would be so hard that our shoulders would think after he's not doing that at all anymore, but it's kind of like, how do I help.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, what do I do to show you that this.
[SPEAKER_01]: other dog block away is not a threat to you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the way if you're passing the dog, it's fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And again, like the way that you do that, instead of going the other way, or just pushing through it is you disrupt it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So the dog goes, hey, there's a dog.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's no, in the react and you go, hey, punk, and then I go, what the?
[SPEAKER_02]: Good.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And all of a sudden, they go, yeah, but they don't.
[SPEAKER_02]: But the, uh, uh, and they go, uh, oh, hey, who, you know, and you just kind of have this realization, because reactivity, if you think about it, the definition, if we really get granular to the reactivity and engage into it, it's somebody dumping cold water at you and you're going, oh god, there's like this reaction, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So when your dog sees a dog, whiskey's reaction is to go,
[SPEAKER_02]: What do we do?
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a dog and he doesn't know like what to do.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you just go, hey, hey, stop.
[SPEAKER_02]: Leave it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sit.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but sit.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know sit.
[SPEAKER_02]: We worked on it yesterday.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: You can't, you know, he goes, I can't get up, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: But there's a dog.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sit.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: But there's a dog.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, the dog passed.
[SPEAKER_02]: The dog passed.
[SPEAKER_02]: What?
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm still.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're all, yeah, exactly, you are literally like the way that I explain it, especially with dogs like whiskey, who just need a little bit of effort to really reformat things, which is good, is you almost want to make them feel silly for reacting.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like you're going, what's what's the big deal?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like you make the most peaceful calm.
[SPEAKER_02]: Nope, stop, leave it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Nope, nope, they go, yeah, but
[SPEAKER_02]: right and then the dog passes you go see and then a dog so what I do is I count our condition and this is it's not really super applicable for you because your dog isn't super food motivated but what I typically do is if a dog of mine or a client's dog can be reactive I'll count our condition what that means is we go out for a walk
[SPEAKER_02]: I have a yes marker, which means I'm going to pay the dog, or I'll have a focus command.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm using exercises to counter the potentially bad behaviors and build, so the dog look like dog on leash looks at a dog and they go, oh, there's a dog and I go look and they look at me and I pay him and I pay him.
[SPEAKER_02]: So they're still looking at me as I'm passing the dog.
[SPEAKER_02]: What ends up happening, and I've done it with my mastive, is when he sees a dog, he looks at me.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's like, oh, that means you're going to pay me.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's called counter-conditioning.
[SPEAKER_02]: because your dog isn't super-foot motivated to be more challenging.
[SPEAKER_01]: If I do it now, he might do it now outside.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I would love, like, I could promise you it's possible to do what you want to do.
[SPEAKER_02]: A hundred percent, I just think, you know, the difference is like making sure you're, have you watched my YouTube videos, like, on all of this?
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, we've got a couple.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll send here.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to write my notes.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'll send you an equipment list and then a couple videos on that'll be helpful for you to see like smaller dogs who have similar issues from New York City.
[SPEAKER_02]: Believe it or not.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because you know, it's like, you know, I just worked with this Irish herner husband or Irish and they live in New York City and they're like, we can't go anywhere without running into
[SPEAKER_02]: 10 dogs and you know, and all the burles are different, but you see a lot of people see a lot of dogs.
[SPEAKER_02]: So anyway, so I'll send you, I'll send you an equipment list that I recommend and then I'll send you a list of some videos I would recommend watching and I wish you guys the best, but I think I think you guys would be just fine if you like I said you you just haven't done like the main principle thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: when you're trying to stop a behavior, instead of run away from it, just and the only time that you would run away from it, if I was out for a walk with my dogs, and I saw a train wreck barking and pulling and maybe I've seen this in my neighborhood, like little kids walking the dog, I'll turn around, like nope, like I'm going to succeed here, 100% were gone.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I don't have anything to prove.
[SPEAKER_02]: But if I'm going out with a dog and I want to help them work through their issues and their insecurities and what do I do and their fight or flight, I'm going to work through it and I'm going to I'm going to do a balance of good bad good red light green light.
[SPEAKER_02]: Nope.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_02]: Nope.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean it's just like I've won three year.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just like parenting is your constantly just nope.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's that's about you're just constantly parenting to like teach them wrong for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's the same thing with dogs.
[SPEAKER_02]: But if you avoid it, I
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, they compounds and you just, you, and I, and I see this and typically the next steps are you go and so if you stay down the route that you're on, which I don't, I'm telling you don't have to.
[SPEAKER_02]: You stay on the route you're on, what ends up happening is they up the dosage, or they, they take another, they do another pill and, and you're trying to just, it's like throwing riddle in at kids who just actually need an outlet instead of, Yeah, do you know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_02]: So do you have any, um, less minute questions?
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, yeah, I guess after we kind of go through all of the things and see how it's working.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, what do you recommend would be next steps if we were going to continue kind of down the path.
[SPEAKER_02]: Good question.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, the lowest hanging fruit in the most inexpensive and most convenient thing is I have an online academy.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like 20.
[SPEAKER_02]: 20 bucks a month and the highest is 39.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's 40 bucks a month and I go live once a week So if you guys wanted to consult with me in a very like a couple question way instead of like you know doing this full attention to you You could do this, but I mean you could also just send up for my members my online Academy for six months And it'd be the same price or more
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and so we go live like every week and you can hop on and go hey, it's us with whiskey like hey we tried these things What can help you out with so that's a super way to like check in with me once a week Obviously you can do this again.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, I really I'm so confident that you guys can Get better at this you just have to find like the right tools and the right right methods and the right exercises I have a reactivity course and in the course it goes over
[SPEAKER_02]: all the the latter of the tools like what courses or sorry what pieces of equipment I recommend how you should de-escalate like when you're out for a walk here's exactly what you need to be doing when you see another dog like that's gonna like I think it's 200 bucks but it's like a full course on I had of all the years of working with reactive dogs I worked on it for a month and I put everything I know into that course.
[SPEAKER_02]: so that that may be like good homework for you guys as well and in conjunction with starting this training process and that'll really go through like what equipment you should move up to if it's something's not working or it's ineffective, how to fit that piece of equipment to make sure it's working, what should you should be saying, what skill sets that you need to have to really tackle these things successfully and fairly.
[SPEAKER_02]: So online Academy, you can work with me online.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's tons of resources in there too.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's all my Uncut YouTube videos.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's like a really good low hanging fruit that you can do.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: My recommendation.
[SPEAKER_03]: Great.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can send you that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll just send you everything at some point today.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that way you guys have some resources.
[SPEAKER_01]: great sounds good.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're welcome so much.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was lovely to chat with you guys have a lovely day and good luck.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Great.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks a lot.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right guys.
[SPEAKER_02]: Bye.