WEBVTT 00:02.393 --> 00:05.297 [SPEAKER_01]: Hey friends, welcome back to the Christian Parenting Podcast. 00:05.338 --> 00:06.359 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm your host, Steph Thirling. 00:06.439 --> 00:08.843 [SPEAKER_01]: I am so glad that you are here with me today. 00:09.083 --> 00:10.606 [SPEAKER_01]: I am joined by Kristen Le Valley. 00:10.646 --> 00:15.433 [SPEAKER_01]: She is a writer, a retreat host, and a mom of five, who lives in New England with her family. 00:16.094 --> 00:20.701 [SPEAKER_01]: Kristen has spent years helping women process trauma, church hurt, and faith through her writing. 00:20.761 --> 00:23.946 [SPEAKER_01]: And today we're talking about what it looks like to navigate doubt. 00:23.926 --> 00:29.015 [SPEAKER_01]: deconstruction and healing while still raising kids in trying to pass on faith with care. 00:29.836 --> 00:43.639 [SPEAKER_01]: Kristen is the author of the book growing up saved and it takes an honest look at growing up in evangelical Christianity, wrestling with shame, mental health, and identity in finding a more whole and grounded faith on the other side of deconstruction. 00:43.619 --> 00:47.926 [SPEAKER_01]: This conversation is thoughtful, it's vulnerable, and it's deeply hopeful. 00:48.006 --> 00:57.300 [SPEAKER_01]: So we talk about fear-based faith, shame versus conviction, giving kids agency and how to be a non-ingcious presence when faith feels complicated. 00:57.961 --> 01:04.591 [SPEAKER_01]: So if you have ever wondered how to disciple your kids well, still asking questions yourself, I think that you're going to feel really seen in this episode. 01:04.611 --> 01:06.133 [SPEAKER_01]: So I hope that you enjoy it. 01:12.357 --> 01:15.082 [SPEAKER_01]: and welcome to the Christian parenting podcast. 01:15.483 --> 01:16.404 [SPEAKER_01]: Hi, thanks for having me. 01:16.625 --> 01:18.208 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I am really excited to have you. 01:18.248 --> 01:29.388 [SPEAKER_01]: I think we're going to have a very good and meaningful conversation that a lot of people will resonate with, so I appreciate you taking some time out of your very busy day after a long weekend to talk with me. 01:29.648 --> 01:30.670 [SPEAKER_01]: So thank you. 01:30.650 --> 01:31.451 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, of course. 01:31.792 --> 01:39.666 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, why don't you start first just let's get to know you a little bit tell us about what you do tell us about your family and all the things that are important to you. 01:39.806 --> 01:40.327 [SPEAKER_00]: Sure. 01:40.367 --> 01:40.748 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 01:40.908 --> 01:42.210 [SPEAKER_00]: We could go really long. 01:42.311 --> 01:43.613 [SPEAKER_00]: We can make this way short. 01:43.633 --> 01:48.902 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, as of right now, I am a writer and I host retreat. 01:48.922 --> 01:50.565 [SPEAKER_00]: So my teach writing mostly. 01:50.545 --> 01:56.675 [SPEAKER_00]: to a minute who have gone through something traumatic and are trying to find a way to get their story out of their systems. 01:56.695 --> 02:02.724 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's a lot of what I do my husband and I were using worship pastors for a little over a decade. 02:03.105 --> 02:07.632 [SPEAKER_00]: And left that that aspect of ministry almost 10 years ago. 02:07.692 --> 02:10.557 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, almost as long as we've been out, almost as long as we were. 02:10.597 --> 02:14.443 [SPEAKER_00]: And we both kind of found a different way of, um, 02:14.423 --> 02:16.446 [SPEAKER_00]: ministry and life and all of that. 02:16.466 --> 02:26.582 [SPEAKER_00]: But we live in New England where in Massachusetts and we have five kids, our oldest is 15 and then we have twins that are our youngest and therefore they both have autism. 02:26.782 --> 02:28.805 [SPEAKER_00]: They're all in school and it's been great. 02:28.825 --> 02:36.477 [SPEAKER_00]: We homeschooled for 10 years and when our daughters were diagnosed with autism and we realized okay we're going to need like some more support. 02:36.537 --> 02:39.942 [SPEAKER_00]: We decided that was the time to put everybody in school and that's 02:39.922 --> 02:46.856 [SPEAKER_00]: That's what our lives are right now, writing and retreats and working from home and our kids are all in school and it's pretty great. 02:47.036 --> 02:49.381 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you're in a little sweet, sweet season. 02:49.581 --> 02:49.882 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 02:50.022 --> 02:50.283 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 02:50.303 --> 02:50.804 [SPEAKER_01]: It's been nice. 02:50.984 --> 02:57.197 [SPEAKER_01]: How is the transition from home schooling to school a lot easier than I thought it would be. 02:57.217 --> 02:58.960 [SPEAKER_00]: I thought our kids were going to have. 02:58.940 --> 02:59.942 [SPEAKER_00]: a really hard time. 02:59.962 --> 03:03.769 [SPEAKER_00]: The area that we're in is a big city like an inner city. 03:03.969 --> 03:08.478 [SPEAKER_00]: So I wasn't sure how easily our kids were gonna adjust because it's not just changing school. 03:08.538 --> 03:13.607 [SPEAKER_00]: It's kind of like a culture shock to go into a public school in an inner city, but they've done really great. 03:14.048 --> 03:16.212 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm kind of surprised and relieved. 03:16.412 --> 03:17.995 [SPEAKER_00]: It hasn't been without, you know. 03:17.975 --> 03:21.619 [SPEAKER_00]: are social issues that everybody kind of deals with. 03:21.739 --> 03:23.561 [SPEAKER_00]: But no, it's been pretty great. 03:23.801 --> 03:25.323 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, that's amazing. 03:25.683 --> 03:26.324 [SPEAKER_01]: That's really awesome. 03:26.524 --> 03:28.366 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so tell us a little more about your background. 03:28.707 --> 03:37.817 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, what led you to writing yourself, leading retreats about writing, and writing specifically about things like church, church, and trauma, and deconstructing faith. 03:38.217 --> 03:39.358 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, how did you get to this point? 03:39.578 --> 03:43.763 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, writing was always the way that I made sense. 03:43.743 --> 03:44.504 [SPEAKER_00]: of the world. 03:44.744 --> 03:48.889 [SPEAKER_00]: I was an undiagnosed neurodivergent kid, which you could read about in the book. 03:48.929 --> 03:50.331 [SPEAKER_00]: I talk a lot about that. 03:50.811 --> 03:56.197 [SPEAKER_00]: But now looking back and like, oh, that's why I had to write everything, because that's only way I could process what was going on. 03:56.217 --> 04:03.546 [SPEAKER_00]: And when I was sinking, when I was feeling the writing kind of became like a therapeutic tool for me before I even knew what I was doing. 04:03.586 --> 04:07.671 [SPEAKER_00]: I started journaling when I was seven and I still have all of those journals. 04:07.691 --> 04:11.455 [SPEAKER_00]: It kept everything 04:11.435 --> 04:26.911 [SPEAKER_00]: writing was always just like how I how I made sense of the world and it carried me all through all through childhood and into adulthood and then as my faith started to unravel writing is how I started to make sense of it again. 04:26.931 --> 04:35.340 [SPEAKER_00]: I was a part of an organization that taught writing to women who had been incarcerated or were in a halfway house as a way to heal. 04:35.380 --> 04:40.125 [SPEAKER_00]: That's when I started 04:40.105 --> 05:08.661 [SPEAKER_00]: which is kind of, you know, I think about life in breadcrumbs like we have all these breadcrumbs that that we follow that lead us to where we are and I think that was just another little breadcrumb that God put in my way and has led me to where I am right now helping other women who have gone through spiritual abuse or trauma or have something in their lives that they need to make sense of I think writing is a really powerful way to do that it's a great tool even if you don't aspire to publish books or anything like that writing can be a great way to process your pain. 05:08.641 --> 05:14.089 [SPEAKER_00]: That's how I've used it my whole life and now it's something that I like to teach other people how to do as well. 05:14.330 --> 05:26.228 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, when I was younger and I was in fifth grade, I lost a friend tragically and I started reading so many books about young kids dying. 05:26.208 --> 05:32.179 [SPEAKER_01]: which I think my parents were a little alarmed because they were like yeah you're reading really dark books. 05:32.760 --> 05:40.194 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it really is what you were saying now is like I needed, I didn't know anyone else who had lost a friend except for my little group of friends. 05:40.234 --> 05:45.263 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we processed together the best that you could back in the day and we didn't really go to therapy. 05:45.243 --> 05:46.385 [SPEAKER_01]: that happened to my kids. 05:46.425 --> 05:47.266 [SPEAKER_01]: I'd like to therapy. 05:47.306 --> 05:49.450 [SPEAKER_01]: You go, but that wasn't what we did. 05:49.791 --> 05:53.918 [SPEAKER_01]: So I read books because I was able to put myself in that story. 05:54.098 --> 06:00.148 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, oh, someone who can relate to me, I think there's just so much power in stories and so it makes sense that you want to write it down too. 06:00.228 --> 06:04.776 [SPEAKER_01]: Because it's just a way of connecting when you can't be face to face, that I think is just so beautiful. 06:05.036 --> 06:05.477 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 06:05.497 --> 06:07.100 [SPEAKER_01]: So I always push my kids to be a big reader. 06:07.120 --> 06:09.023 [SPEAKER_01]: So when they don't want to read, I'm like, I don't really agree anyway. 06:10.353 --> 06:11.094 [SPEAKER_01]: Sit down now. 06:11.796 --> 06:12.176 [SPEAKER_01]: Sit down. 06:12.216 --> 06:13.118 [SPEAKER_01]: You're in a like it. 06:13.158 --> 06:17.546 [SPEAKER_01]: But I want to talk a little bit about your writing, about what you're talking about. 06:17.607 --> 06:26.944 [SPEAKER_01]: What it looks like to navigate, church hurt, to deconstruct, to rebuild faith, especially while raising kids. 06:26.924 --> 06:50.282 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's something that a lot of people deal with and it's not super talked about specifically raising kids while you're trying to navigate your faith yourself because so many of us have to make our faith our own After a cover from something that didn't make sense to your questions that we didn't get to ask Any is hard enough to decipher your kids when you feel like you're in a good place with church in the faith and then you add in church and it's that's just like a lot. 06:50.262 --> 07:02.339 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I guess let's start what would you say to someone who's experienced shirt shirt and then how do you like how do you separate the good parts of your fate from the parts that are hard and painful? 07:02.539 --> 07:10.330 [SPEAKER_00]: Whew, it's a big big question and something I think is different for everybody else, but for everybody, but 07:10.310 --> 07:18.604 [SPEAKER_00]: The biggest piece I think is fear is just so it just colors everything that we do and it prevents us from so much. 07:18.664 --> 07:27.559 [SPEAKER_00]: I think fear prevents us from engaging with our faith and engaging with questions because sometimes we're struggling with a concept or doctrine or especially when we're raising kids. 07:27.539 --> 07:33.592 [SPEAKER_00]: We can be afraid to open that door because what's going to happen if I don't get the answer that I want. 07:33.813 --> 07:39.385 [SPEAKER_00]: And if I'm struggling with my faith, how can I possibly help my kids along in their faith? 07:39.506 --> 07:46.020 [SPEAKER_00]: And so we get really afraid and we panic and that panic kind of bottlenecks are pursued of truth and our pursuit of answers. 07:46.000 --> 08:08.093 [SPEAKER_00]: Which I think is okay sometimes sometimes you can just be okay with not having the answer and go to the motions and keep your rhythms in your practices and all of that If that's what feels good and safe for you at the moment, but I think once those questions they get stuff down so long that eventually they just burst and they get out anyway I feel like doubt and questions in 08:08.073 --> 08:10.658 [SPEAKER_00]: concerns and pain, it always finds a way out. 08:10.918 --> 08:18.291 [SPEAKER_00]: So even if you're intentionally not processing it because you're afraid of how it might affect your life or your children, it's gonna come out anyway. 08:18.311 --> 08:24.342 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think sometimes we have to just push through that fear and think what's the worst case scenario here? 08:24.362 --> 08:25.103 [SPEAKER_00]: What's the worst thing? 08:25.083 --> 08:25.964 [SPEAKER_00]: That can happen. 08:26.024 --> 08:27.066 [SPEAKER_00]: My faithfuls apart. 08:27.166 --> 08:48.157 [SPEAKER_00]: If my faithfuls apart, though I really want to hold on to a face that is fractured right now, if faith that maybe isn't as sincere as it could be on the other side of that, we're so afraid of what will happen, that we don't sincerely pursue our questions and our doubts, and I think doubt is an invitation to know God better and to have a deeper faith, a more deeply rooted faith. 08:48.177 --> 08:49.740 [SPEAKER_00]: That was the case for me. 08:49.760 --> 08:52.103 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think we can move through 08:52.083 --> 09:01.001 [SPEAKER_00]: pain and questions and disillusionment and doubt and frustration and anger and all these things we go through when our faith gets shaken a little bit. 09:01.041 --> 09:04.488 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think we can move through that unless we're engaging with it. 09:05.009 --> 09:12.143 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, when you throw in kids, that's a whole other thing because you're like, well, I don't want to pass down the harmful things of my faith. 09:12.163 --> 09:12.724 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I want to 09:12.704 --> 09:14.066 [SPEAKER_00]: past down the good thing. 09:14.086 --> 09:19.392 [SPEAKER_00]: So for us, we kind of clung to some basic things that we believed were true about God. 09:19.412 --> 09:19.932 [SPEAKER_00]: God is good. 09:19.972 --> 09:20.533 [SPEAKER_00]: God is kind. 09:20.553 --> 09:21.154 [SPEAKER_00]: God is faithful. 09:21.194 --> 09:21.935 [SPEAKER_00]: God is for us. 09:22.135 --> 09:24.918 [SPEAKER_00]: And we imparted those on our kids. 09:24.938 --> 09:33.448 [SPEAKER_00]: And we decided that instead of teaching them the way that we had been taught, which was very systematic, very fear-based, very like transactional. 09:33.508 --> 09:35.410 [SPEAKER_00]: If I do these things, God will do that. 09:35.510 --> 09:38.053 [SPEAKER_00]: We knew that that was not something that we wanted to pass down. 09:38.033 --> 09:38.714 [SPEAKER_00]: to our kids. 09:38.754 --> 09:49.727 [SPEAKER_00]: But while we were kind of spiraling and thrashing and figuring out our faith, we thought the safest thing for us to do with our kids to teach them and guide them without harming them would be to just stick to stories. 09:50.027 --> 09:51.449 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's what I tell people now. 09:51.469 --> 09:55.434 [SPEAKER_00]: Like if you're not sure what you believe, you're not sure what you want to pass on to your kids. 09:55.614 --> 09:58.417 [SPEAKER_00]: Stories are probably the safest thing that you can pass on. 09:58.457 --> 09:59.839 [SPEAKER_00]: There's a book that I really like. 09:59.879 --> 10:02.862 [SPEAKER_00]: Everybody's probably going to have a different social and story book, Bible or whatever that they like. 10:02.963 --> 10:04.544 [SPEAKER_00]: I really like the book of belonging. 10:04.605 --> 10:06.287 [SPEAKER_00]: I think the artwork is beautiful. 10:06.307 --> 10:07.568 [SPEAKER_00]: I think the 10:07.548 --> 10:15.535 [SPEAKER_00]: it tells a lot more female stories that maybe your traditional children's book Bible does it highlights a lot of the female centred stories in scripture. 10:15.815 --> 10:20.820 [SPEAKER_00]: And it just felt like a really safe and contemplative, like, I can pass stories on to my kids. 10:20.840 --> 10:22.041 [SPEAKER_00]: Stories aren't gonna harm them. 10:22.261 --> 10:25.885 [SPEAKER_00]: Processed my questions and came to more secure the states. 10:26.225 --> 10:37.555 [SPEAKER_00]: We've been able to teach them in a more practical way, but stories and then also giving our kids the agency that I didn't feel like I had as a kid to decide 10:37.535 --> 10:39.839 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe end up somewhere different than my parents. 10:39.859 --> 11:04.177 [SPEAKER_00]: We make sure that we give our kids the agency to pursue faith on their on their own terms with us guiding them of course But to have the agency to think for themselves and decide that they maybe believe something different than we do and we can talk about it And that's never there's no fear and our relationship with our kids that they're gonna end up somewhere different or that they're not gonna follow Jesus or anything like that We feel very secure with their lives in God's hands. 11:04.197 --> 11:05.078 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think 11:05.058 --> 11:12.408 [SPEAKER_00]: To sum that up, fear is the thing that prevents us from engaging, and it can affect the way that we pass on, faiths are our kids as well. 11:12.428 --> 11:20.259 [SPEAKER_00]: I think fear, a fear-based faith, no matter what you believe, if fear is at the crux of it, that's going to be what harms your kids in the long run. 11:20.480 --> 11:29.192 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, tell me a little bit more about the idea of like giving your kids agency and really trusting God with them, because I think that's really hard. 11:29.172 --> 11:30.153 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's hard. 11:30.473 --> 11:35.338 [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like I talked to parents all the time being like, you know, we can use all the tools and the resources that we have. 11:35.639 --> 11:40.283 [SPEAKER_01]: We can tell our kids stories and we can impart all of our wisdom and we can pray for them. 11:40.444 --> 11:44.468 [SPEAKER_01]: But like, at the end of the day, we're not our kids savior and God's writing their story. 11:44.508 --> 11:44.948 [SPEAKER_01]: We're not. 11:45.068 --> 11:51.695 [SPEAKER_01]: So handing them over and that sense of holding our kids faith loosely while still investing in it is such a balance. 11:52.076 --> 11:54.798 [SPEAKER_01]: And giving them that agency, I think it's just hard. 11:54.838 --> 11:58.302 [SPEAKER_01]: I think we just need to control a little bit 11:58.282 --> 11:59.945 [SPEAKER_01]: We just are human and we do. 12:00.286 --> 12:19.480 [SPEAKER_01]: What does that look like in your house to give them that agency that you felt like you didn't have, so maybe also like what did it look like for you to not have agency and how reading differently with your kids so for me growing up we were allowed to ask questions we're allowed to think critically about our faith we're allowed to kind of say well what about this and what about that, but there was a limit. 12:19.460 --> 12:27.737 [SPEAKER_00]: and we could only question so far and then there was this like element of panic of like, well, no, you're not, well, you're not question the Bible. 12:27.797 --> 12:28.919 [SPEAKER_00]: You can't question the Bible. 12:29.421 --> 12:38.720 [SPEAKER_00]: And that was a lot of what I had questions about there is like, you know, sometimes stories are told differently in the Bible and sometimes it can seem like there's competing voices and competing ideas. 12:38.780 --> 12:39.882 [SPEAKER_00]: And I was such a 12:39.862 --> 12:46.431 [SPEAKER_00]: everything has to make sense, black and white type of thinker that I struggled with the more abstract concepts in the Bible. 12:46.551 --> 12:57.627 [SPEAKER_00]: So there was there was questioning to the point of like, now my pants are panicking and now I feel like my faith is threatened and my safety with God is threatened because of my questions. 12:57.867 --> 13:01.212 [SPEAKER_00]: So with our kids agency is is just the lack of 13:01.192 --> 13:04.216 [SPEAKER_00]: panic, we call it the non anxious presence. 13:04.276 --> 13:19.275 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's, when somebody is struggling with their faith, when somebody has something traumatic happen to them, when somebody has a question that that feel that makes you feel uncomfortable, your job is to be non anxious and to just sit with them and be present with them. 13:19.295 --> 13:20.637 [SPEAKER_00]: So we do that with our kids. 13:20.717 --> 13:25.984 [SPEAKER_00]: We have a whole range of neurodivergence 13:25.964 --> 13:45.357 [SPEAKER_00]: really affect the way somebody's able to metabolize and process faith and what we don't want to do is make our more literal thinkers feel like they can't have access to God if they can't just say okay fine I accept and I believe in and if God said it that settles it not every child is able to do that some kids are just 13:45.337 --> 13:47.079 [SPEAKER_00]: They're just going to question everything. 13:47.099 --> 13:50.643 [SPEAKER_00]: They're going to find all the loopholes, and that's just how they're processing. 13:50.724 --> 13:53.167 [SPEAKER_00]: So we don't panic when our kids are like, well, I don't know. 13:53.487 --> 13:57.271 [SPEAKER_00]: I basically, recently one of my sons was like, well, I believe in science. 13:57.292 --> 14:01.857 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, cool, that's great, because so do I. I believe in science, and I believe in God. 14:01.897 --> 14:08.345 [SPEAKER_00]: So we kind of just work with them instead of punishing them or panicking about where they're at. 14:08.525 --> 14:10.888 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think maybe it's a little bit easier. 14:10.868 --> 14:17.755 [SPEAKER_00]: for us personally because my husband, I always say he's a one person in the world that came to Jesus because of a gospel tract. 14:18.095 --> 14:26.423 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know, it was like, those ones that they, I don't know if they can't them out anymore, but they were like, Johnny cursed God and then he got hit by a car and died. 14:26.443 --> 14:27.524 [SPEAKER_00]: And now he's burning and hell. 14:27.564 --> 14:29.666 [SPEAKER_00]: And it has like, Richard, Johnny, burning and hell. 14:29.726 --> 14:34.831 [SPEAKER_00]: Somebody shoved one of those in my husband's hand when he was at a state fair and it went back in the back. 14:34.851 --> 14:36.373 [SPEAKER_00]: It was like, do you know where you're going when you die? 14:36.393 --> 14:37.534 [SPEAKER_00]: And he's like, actually don't. 14:37.514 --> 14:43.263 [SPEAKER_00]: So he said the little prayer, and he found a youth group and ended up following Jesus that way. 14:43.564 --> 14:52.378 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think about my husband, and I think about me growing up the way that I grew up and still struggling deeply with my faith and him not growing up in the faith and Jesus finding him anyway. 14:52.398 --> 14:57.466 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm just like, you know, God's gonna find your kids wherever they're at. 14:57.626 --> 15:02.374 [SPEAKER_00]: And if you believe that faith is the revelation of Jesus Christ, and what can we do? 15:02.354 --> 15:30.758 [SPEAKER_00]: to force that revelation to our children or to anybody we can lay the foundations we can teach them we do everything that scripture says to do but ultimately their gods and their gods to lead and gods to draw in and I I trust them with that I don't know if if my lack of panic is always a good thing because maybe maybe I should be a little more assertive but I'm just like then I just think God is good and he finds us wherever we're at you know yeah well I love that 15:30.738 --> 15:37.047 [SPEAKER_01]: presence because I think that it definitely applies to faith in questioning faith, but it also applies to so much in parenting. 15:37.387 --> 15:58.197 [SPEAKER_01]: Like it's so easy to get anxious when our kids are going through anything hard even like I was telling you before we started recording all of my kids forgot homework last night or this morning and you know like I can sit there in panic about it or be like you know what we're going to figure this out and I just kind of just I like that be a non-ingcious 15:58.177 --> 16:00.964 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, right when your nervous system is all dysregulated. 16:01.025 --> 16:02.950 [SPEAKER_00]: How am I supposed to be an audience? 16:03.010 --> 16:06.619 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm like, I don't know how to do that, I'm gonna do that, I'm gonna do that. 16:06.639 --> 16:09.006 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we'll take a 10 minute break and I'll get back to you. 16:09.647 --> 16:11.312 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I told him, and there's nothing wrong with that. 16:11.432 --> 16:11.973 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, no. 16:12.074 --> 16:12.395 [SPEAKER_01]: So we need. 16:12.996 --> 16:13.317 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 16:13.297 --> 16:19.323 [SPEAKER_01]: But I think it's interesting talking about your experience growing up versus your husband's experience growing up. 16:19.363 --> 16:24.648 [SPEAKER_01]: We're kind of the opposite in the sense that I didn't really grow up in a Christian home. 16:24.809 --> 16:29.834 [SPEAKER_01]: Like we were Christians, but we weren't super active in our faith at all until I was older. 16:29.854 --> 16:31.175 [SPEAKER_01]: And I kind of found my faith on my own. 16:31.555 --> 16:33.257 [SPEAKER_01]: And my husband grew up in a very Christian home. 16:33.357 --> 16:35.880 [SPEAKER_01]: And so we had very different experiences. 16:36.000 --> 16:43.287 [SPEAKER_01]: And while we parent our kids, we talk a lot about, okay, what was the good part of you are upbringing in that way. 16:43.267 --> 17:02.052 [SPEAKER_01]: sent you know vice versa and what do we want to bring from each home to parent the way we want to parent and I do believe that there's like a danger and growing up in a Christian home and I need people to hear me out when I say that because this is the Christian parenting podcast and I'm raising my kids in a Christian home and you guys probably are too but 17:02.032 --> 17:05.820 [SPEAKER_01]: I think the danger is that when we raise our kids in a faith, that's easy. 17:06.140 --> 17:07.904 [SPEAKER_01]: It's easy for a lot of things to happen. 17:08.064 --> 17:10.629 [SPEAKER_01]: They don't have to make their faith their own until they're forced to. 17:10.649 --> 17:15.299 [SPEAKER_01]: Or maybe it gets shaken when things get hard or it ends up being confusing. 17:15.419 --> 17:19.467 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's not a blanket statement because some kids and teens and young adults. 17:19.447 --> 17:35.566 [SPEAKER_01]: do this while and make their faith their own, but I feel like kids who grow up in a Christian home, I have hopefully a faith very comfortably handed to them and they can become passive in it or burn out, which is kind of also what happens when a lot of kids leave the home. 17:35.666 --> 17:37.588 [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's what do you do? 17:37.608 --> 17:48.981 [SPEAKER_01]: How do you help your kids make it their own and make it something that they're passionate about and proud of not because you told them to? 17:48.961 --> 17:53.309 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, like my faith has always been my own because I had to find it myself, like nobody gave it to me. 17:53.669 --> 17:56.494 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think about that with my kids because I'm giving them this faith. 17:56.595 --> 18:01.443 [SPEAKER_01]: So what am I going to do to guide them well so that they can really embrace it? 18:01.463 --> 18:03.387 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's just the challenge we'll have. 18:03.627 --> 18:04.168 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 18:04.148 --> 18:04.468 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 18:04.849 --> 18:05.129 [SPEAKER_00]: Totally. 18:05.149 --> 18:16.161 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think our kids absorbed so much just by watching us and the conversations that we have in the way that we interact with other people and the way that they hear us talking about other people. 18:16.261 --> 18:27.193 [SPEAKER_00]: That was a big thing for me growing up and not just a Christian home, but about a pastor's home and a pastor's family, all, everybody, all of my uncles on both sides, both sets of grandparents, everybody was a pastor. 18:27.574 --> 18:33.480 [SPEAKER_00]: So I grew up hearing a lot of men and women 18:33.460 --> 18:33.861 [SPEAKER_00]: to me. 18:33.981 --> 18:43.719 [SPEAKER_00]: And maybe children should not have been overhearing these conversations about ministry and frustration, things that are probably very normal to talk about, but I grew up absorbing all of that. 18:43.759 --> 18:53.777 [SPEAKER_00]: Most of my, and I think I probably talked about this in the book, but most of the malformation, the spiritual malformation I experienced as a child, wasn't in what I was being directly taught. 18:53.938 --> 18:55.300 [SPEAKER_00]: It was in the behaviors. 18:55.280 --> 19:04.208 [SPEAKER_00]: and what I was learning socially, learning what was okay and what was celebrated and what was punished and what I was absorbing more than what I was being taught. 19:04.268 --> 19:13.717 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think when Christ has fully metabolized into your spiritual nervous system and the way that you live and move and have your being is in Christ. 19:13.777 --> 19:23.425 [SPEAKER_00]: I think kids absorb that and they learn more about faith from the way that you engage with the world that maybe what you're sitting down and talking about at dinner when you're intentionally like, okay, I got to teach you about the grace of God. 19:23.806 --> 19:25.287 [SPEAKER_00]: I think they learn 19:25.267 --> 19:26.489 [SPEAKER_00]: more from you. 19:26.689 --> 19:30.556 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely, that modeling piece is so important for parents. 19:30.576 --> 19:30.676 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 19:30.956 --> 19:36.405 [SPEAKER_01]: Which is freeing, too, because it's kind of easier than having the hard conversations. 19:36.425 --> 19:37.006 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, sometimes. 19:37.066 --> 19:37.887 [SPEAKER_00]: They don't do it well. 19:38.128 --> 19:42.555 [SPEAKER_01]: Unless you really fail in the new, like, all right, that was not a good thing. 19:43.016 --> 19:43.917 [SPEAKER_01]: Don't do that. 19:44.217 --> 20:00.049 [SPEAKER_01]: don't do it on a day because well then you get to model forgiveness and confession and you know yeah all that yeah and part of another thing that you talk about a lot is like shame and I think so many people have struggle with shame in their faith like they have to earn approval and approval from average 20:00.029 --> 20:08.964 [SPEAKER_01]: Everyone, like their parents, the church community, like God, like so what do you what advice do you have someone to give someone who's feeling way down by shame? 20:09.204 --> 20:16.637 [SPEAKER_01]: And they want to focus on God and how do we then address that with our kids that they don't feel the same shame that perhaps we have felt. 20:16.617 --> 20:18.219 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, there's lots of resources. 20:18.660 --> 20:26.270 [SPEAKER_00]: I think Kurt Thompson's books are really great resources on unlearning shame for yourself and then stopping yourself from passing that shame on to other people. 20:26.410 --> 20:33.180 [SPEAKER_00]: But I think the antidote to shame and having a very shame-shaped identity, which is what I had for sure. 20:33.280 --> 20:35.503 [SPEAKER_00]: My whole life has been shaped by shame. 20:35.483 --> 20:38.688 [SPEAKER_00]: Shame is understanding how deeply you're loved by God. 20:38.808 --> 20:45.017 [SPEAKER_00]: And I feel like that's such a cop-out answer in Christianity because it's almost like, like, yeah, I get it. 20:45.037 --> 20:45.577 [SPEAKER_00]: God loves me. 20:45.597 --> 21:00.158 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, you hear that all this time, but there's this verse in Ephesians 3 that says, I wish that you could understand how much I love you to understand even how, like, a fraction of how much God loves you, you would need the supernatural power of all the saints. 21:00.138 --> 21:08.049 [SPEAKER_00]: And it never says that about his wrath and never says that about his judgment, it never says, you know, it's really hard for you to understand how much I want to send you to hell. 21:08.089 --> 21:09.491 [SPEAKER_00]: It can never says anything like that. 21:09.511 --> 21:12.776 [SPEAKER_00]: It says you can't even begin to comprehend how much I love you. 21:12.796 --> 21:14.238 [SPEAKER_00]: That is a lot of love. 21:14.459 --> 21:16.982 [SPEAKER_00]: And we are so resistant to that love. 21:17.002 --> 21:25.875 [SPEAKER_00]: We're more willing to accept our shame and accept punishment and accept rejection than we are to believe that we are worthy to be loved as we are right now. 21:25.855 --> 21:37.310 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think if you make that the priority in your spiritual formation to try to understand how much God loves you, that is the antidote to the shame that shapes the scaffolding of your faiths and the outline of your identity. 21:37.330 --> 21:54.192 [SPEAKER_00]: And when you're able to unlearn the shame in yourself, then it's not even a thought to pass that shame on to other people, because shame unwires from your framework of thinking and your framework of being and you don't pass that on because you don't have it in yourself anymore. 21:54.172 --> 21:59.039 [SPEAKER_00]: takes time, it's not like an instant, oh, well, now I'm never going to feel shame again. 21:59.119 --> 22:00.100 [SPEAKER_00]: Wow, wasn't that nice. 22:00.140 --> 22:00.661 [SPEAKER_00]: It takes time. 22:00.701 --> 22:05.007 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a spiritual practice to notice the shame, attuned to the shame. 22:05.027 --> 22:06.249 [SPEAKER_00]: Why am I feeling this shame? 22:06.269 --> 22:07.110 [SPEAKER_00]: Is this shame? 22:07.130 --> 22:07.791 [SPEAKER_00]: Is this conviction? 22:07.831 --> 22:15.001 [SPEAKER_00]: We get confused about that, too, and really like think it through and process it and let it go, because shame has no place. 22:15.061 --> 22:18.125 [SPEAKER_00]: Shame and condemnation have no place in the life of a believer. 22:18.185 --> 22:19.147 [SPEAKER_00]: God doesn't give that to us. 22:19.167 --> 22:20.128 [SPEAKER_00]: He's not the author of it. 22:20.448 --> 22:22.571 [SPEAKER_00]: See, he's the eraser of those things. 22:22.631 --> 22:23.773 [SPEAKER_00]: And we 22:23.753 --> 22:29.080 [SPEAKER_00]: love really just envelop us and metabolize into our being. 22:29.320 --> 22:29.521 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 22:29.841 --> 22:30.061 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 22:30.822 --> 22:31.283 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not easy. 22:31.323 --> 22:35.529 [SPEAKER_01]: How do you discern that small difference? 22:35.549 --> 22:39.654 [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes small sometimes large difference between shame and conviction. 22:39.834 --> 22:42.538 [SPEAKER_00]: Shame is this message of hate. 22:43.059 --> 22:44.140 [SPEAKER_00]: Like I hate myself. 22:44.240 --> 22:48.065 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm a bad awful wicked person and I don't deserve anything good. 22:48.566 --> 22:51.270 [SPEAKER_00]: Conviction is that was not a good choice. 22:51.330 --> 22:53.052 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not a good 22:53.032 --> 22:54.114 [SPEAKER_00]: my behavior. 22:54.435 --> 22:56.358 [SPEAKER_00]: And the two often go hand in hand. 22:56.638 --> 23:03.871 [SPEAKER_00]: And especially in evangelical Christianity, we often celebrate the shame because we think the shame is what moves us to correcting our behavior. 23:04.152 --> 23:05.514 [SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes that's true. 23:05.755 --> 23:09.602 [SPEAKER_00]: But if you're correcting your behavior because of shame, that behavior is going to come back. 23:09.642 --> 23:12.627 [SPEAKER_00]: That choice is always going to be there because shame is 23:12.607 --> 23:15.311 [SPEAKER_00]: is not a good motivator to do good things. 23:15.491 --> 23:20.920 [SPEAKER_00]: And so for me, the difference is if I feel convicted, it's just simple, I shouldn't be doing this. 23:21.501 --> 23:24.786 [SPEAKER_00]: If I feel shame, it's, I'm awful on that. 23:24.866 --> 23:25.507 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm wicked. 23:25.627 --> 23:26.429 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm gross. 23:26.509 --> 23:29.974 [SPEAKER_00]: God doesn't love me and he's not going to love me until I correct my behavior. 23:29.954 --> 23:40.446 [SPEAKER_00]: So those those two are hard to discern because they they seem to go so hand in hand all the time, but God is never going to make you feel like you should throw yourself off a cliff because you made a bad choice. 23:40.506 --> 23:44.318 [SPEAKER_00]: He's he's there to welcome you and catch you not throw you off. 23:44.939 --> 23:45.259 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 23:45.940 --> 23:51.427 [SPEAKER_01]: What do you have any tips for someone who's listening is like, yes, this resonates with me. 23:51.788 --> 23:59.538 [SPEAKER_01]: I often just bend towards shame, and I wish like, I could understand God's great love for me, but I'm bent toward shame. 23:59.798 --> 24:01.420 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, that's just, yeah, what I'm, yeah. 24:01.440 --> 24:06.186 [SPEAKER_01]: Right now, like, what are some practical things that someone can do to get out of that mindset? 24:06.447 --> 24:11.453 [SPEAKER_00]: It's so hard, I feel like it's so shameless such a spiritual thing. 24:11.433 --> 24:21.307 [SPEAKER_00]: Practically for me the biggest piece for me personally was getting diagnosed with ADHD because a lot of my Shame was around my behavior like why can't I be like everyone? 24:21.327 --> 24:34.707 [SPEAKER_00]: Why can't I get things together when I got diagnosed with ADHD Kind of re-contextualized my whole life and took a lot of that shame away for me another piece was having people in my life That didn't make me feel ashamed that didn't 24:34.687 --> 24:37.290 [SPEAKER_00]: you know, that they weren't passive aggressive with me. 24:37.351 --> 24:38.752 [SPEAKER_00]: They weren't being to me. 24:38.792 --> 24:41.156 [SPEAKER_00]: They were welcoming and forgiving and gracious. 24:41.276 --> 24:49.386 [SPEAKER_00]: And when my faith was unraveling, they just let me thrash and they didn't panic or they didn't say, you just gotta have more faith or it's because you're not reading your Bible. 24:49.406 --> 24:50.468 [SPEAKER_00]: It's because you're not in church. 24:50.488 --> 24:52.791 [SPEAKER_00]: They were just very welcoming to me. 24:52.851 --> 24:54.433 [SPEAKER_00]: I think having, um, 24:54.413 --> 25:12.979 [SPEAKER_00]: Boundaries in your life with people who are perpetuating shame is really important and hard to do because sometimes our families are the people who make us feel the most shame But I think for a season sometimes you have to just throw walls up around your life and say I had this big thing that I have to deal with and shame is a big thing to deal with I don't think it's something that we 25:12.959 --> 25:13.880 [SPEAKER_00]: should ignore. 25:13.960 --> 25:15.942 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I'll take care of it when my kids are out of the house. 25:15.983 --> 25:17.745 [SPEAKER_00]: No, because it's affecting you now. 25:17.765 --> 25:18.746 [SPEAKER_00]: It's affecting your motherhood. 25:18.786 --> 25:20.408 [SPEAKER_00]: It's affecting your marriage. 25:20.468 --> 25:21.409 [SPEAKER_00]: It's affecting your friendships. 25:21.449 --> 25:22.310 [SPEAKER_00]: It affects everything. 25:22.350 --> 25:25.233 [SPEAKER_00]: It affects the way that you show up to your life and to the world. 25:25.354 --> 25:31.841 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's okay for a time to throw your walls up and do a little audit of your life and say, right, what's making me feel the most shame? 25:31.901 --> 25:33.823 [SPEAKER_00]: Where is my shame getting triggered? 25:33.843 --> 25:34.885 [SPEAKER_00]: When do I feel the worst? 25:35.185 --> 25:37.768 [SPEAKER_00]: Make a list of those things and 25:37.748 --> 25:38.489 [SPEAKER_00]: pray about it. 25:38.529 --> 25:46.980 [SPEAKER_00]: If you're in therapy, talk to your therapist, talk to mentors, people that you trust, like how and ask them, how can I develop a plan of counteracting this shame? 25:47.000 --> 25:59.537 [SPEAKER_00]: I think the the best way to come up with that plan is with people who know you and love you and know what your capacity is, know what the lies you tell yourself are so that they can be the truth keepers in your life and help you. 25:59.517 --> 26:00.820 [SPEAKER_00]: find a path out of it. 26:00.900 --> 26:08.559 [SPEAKER_00]: It might be a long road for you, but I think it's important to develop the practices and to be willing to walk the road to unravel that shame. 26:08.760 --> 26:08.980 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 26:09.421 --> 26:12.789 [SPEAKER_01]: That made me think my time I liked the lies that we blew about ourselves. 26:13.130 --> 26:16.699 [SPEAKER_01]: My daughter went to the school counselor for a while and did a 26:16.679 --> 26:32.612 [SPEAKER_01]: They she came home one day with a little project that they had done that was I can't remember what she called it but it was some it was a book like and she colored it and it was on one side of the book it was like a lie and then the other side was a truth and they were all scripture based but it was so sweet. 26:32.592 --> 26:39.864 [SPEAKER_01]: to, I mean, it was hard to read some of the lies that she wrote about herself, but then to read the truth that she had written also. 26:40.125 --> 26:50.241 [SPEAKER_01]: And just me like, wow, what a cool tool that you have, that you, like someone is speaking that do you can speak it to yourself through this like tangible little piece of paper with staples in it? 26:50.261 --> 26:50.842 [SPEAKER_01]: It was great. 26:50.862 --> 26:51.023 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 26:51.343 --> 26:52.125 [SPEAKER_01]: It was a cute little thing. 26:52.145 --> 26:53.627 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, I think we all need that for ourselves. 26:53.667 --> 26:54.769 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, oh, it's grown-ups. 26:54.889 --> 26:56.592 [SPEAKER_01]: We need to make the little book. 26:56.572 --> 26:57.112 [SPEAKER_01]: Totally. 26:57.132 --> 26:57.753 [SPEAKER_01]: So it is parents. 26:57.773 --> 27:02.217 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, here are the lies that I believe about me as a mom, and then here is what's true about that. 27:02.277 --> 27:08.803 [SPEAKER_01]: And maybe as someone listening, like, really actually needs to do that today, and that will give you the freedom on those days where you're feeling really bad. 27:08.943 --> 27:11.865 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you just didn't do it right, because we all have those days as parents. 27:12.005 --> 27:13.787 [SPEAKER_01]: That's just kind of part of the deal. 27:13.807 --> 27:14.407 [SPEAKER_01]: It's part of the shame. 27:14.447 --> 27:16.409 [SPEAKER_01]: That's not true, but we get stuck in it. 27:16.770 --> 27:26.578 [SPEAKER_01]: I would love for you, kind of, to wrap us up, tell us a little bit about your book and where we can find it and where we can connect with you. 27:26.558 --> 27:27.860 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, thanks. 27:27.880 --> 27:29.222 [SPEAKER_00]: It's called Growing Up Saved. 27:29.262 --> 27:30.625 [SPEAKER_00]: You can get it anywhere. 27:30.645 --> 27:32.528 [SPEAKER_00]: It comes out on March 3rd. 27:32.788 --> 27:39.519 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's about growing up in evangelical Christianity in the 90s, which was a very specific era to grow up. 27:39.539 --> 27:44.247 [SPEAKER_00]: A Christian Christian kid in how that affected me and in 27:44.227 --> 27:47.091 [SPEAKER_00]: you know, contorted my ideas of who God is. 27:47.212 --> 27:48.453 [SPEAKER_00]: I really hated myself. 27:48.554 --> 27:55.725 [SPEAKER_00]: So I talk a lot about unraveling that self-hatred learning that I was neurodivergent and how that kind of healed my identity. 27:56.165 --> 28:02.234 [SPEAKER_00]: I talk about my mental health and how that was not welcomed in the church for a long time. 28:02.254 --> 28:04.177 [SPEAKER_00]: We're in a better place now. 28:04.718 --> 28:09.205 [SPEAKER_00]: So society and personally we're all in a better place, but at the time it was very well your 28:09.185 --> 28:09.886 [SPEAKER_00]: not depressed. 28:09.907 --> 28:11.209 [SPEAKER_00]: You're tired, you're stressed. 28:11.229 --> 28:24.898 [SPEAKER_00]: So I talk about that and processing that and all these aspects of faith that were just a little bit more complicated for me than they seem to be for other people and how I unravel those things and we built those things and found my path into a 28:24.878 --> 28:26.521 [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, you can follow me on Instagram. 28:26.541 --> 28:29.986 [SPEAKER_00]: It's just my name, Kristen, Dolla Valley, and I also have a sub-stack. 28:30.006 --> 28:31.128 [SPEAKER_00]: That's called The Limit Away. 28:31.168 --> 28:32.470 [SPEAKER_00]: You can follow me there too. 28:32.770 --> 28:35.935 [SPEAKER_01]: I'll put that all in show notes that people can very easily find it. 28:35.975 --> 28:40.282 [SPEAKER_01]: But I appreciate you taking time out of your day to talk to us about these things. 28:40.362 --> 28:42.144 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's just a really important topic. 28:42.225 --> 28:43.607 [SPEAKER_01]: And people will really resonate with it. 28:43.627 --> 28:48.154 [SPEAKER_01]: So I appreciate that you're being vulnerable enough to write about it and to share with us. 28:48.514 --> 28:50.077 [SPEAKER_01]: And we're so thank you. 28:50.097 --> 28:51.038 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, thank you. 28:51.018 --> 28:52.581 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for joining us. 28:52.762 --> 28:59.435 [SPEAKER_01]: I am so grateful for Kristen and her honesty with them and the way that she speaks about faith with both depth and gentleness. 28:59.535 --> 29:06.850 [SPEAKER_01]: I know that this is going to resonate with a lot of parents who are just trying to help space for their own healing while loving their kids well and discipling them well. 29:07.387 --> 29:15.618 [SPEAKER_01]: Kristen's book growing up saved is available wherever books are sold, and I'll link it along with her Instagram and her sub-stack in the show notes that you can easily connect with her. 29:16.279 --> 29:22.528 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much again for listening to the Christian parenting podcast, it means so much to me, I love being a part of your week. 29:22.548 --> 29:35.706 [SPEAKER_01]: May God bless you this week, may you feel his nearness, even in your questions, and may his love quiet the shame and fear that try to take root, and may you be a steady, grace-filled presence for your kids, trusting that God is at work in their heart. 29:35.686 --> 29:38.035 [SPEAKER_01]: Just as faithfully as he is in yours.