[SPEAKER_01]: Everybody, JJ Cooper, Mark Cheerle, another of the baseball merica prospect podcast deep dives.
[SPEAKER_01]: Today, we are looking at the Pittsburgh Pirate.
[SPEAKER_01]: Our number one ranked farm system.
[SPEAKER_01]: not just because, by a significant part, because they also have the number one prospect in the game, Connor Griffin.
[SPEAKER_01]: Pirates fans, I know it's been bleak.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know, and I say this not as a Pirates fan, but as a Steelers fan who, there's a lot of bleed over of people I talk to, who are also a Steelers fan to also Pirates fan.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know, I know it's been a very rough time for many years, but,
[SPEAKER_01]: There is some optimism.
[SPEAKER_01]: There is reason for some optimism here.
[SPEAKER_01]: In addition to Paul schemes, in addition to actually making some moves to try to help the lineup a lot of power being brought in with Brandon Lau and Ryan O'Hurn and now Marcelo Zuna.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's really this farm system that is the reason to really kind of think, oh, that better times maybe I had.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Mark
[SPEAKER_01]: We asked this question to start it on each of them.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when you say how difficult was the decision to write kind of Griffith number one?
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just going to answer for you and say, this is the easiest decision that was out there.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was our clear slam dunk number one.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would say, from about, you know, with graduations, once like Roman Anthony and all graduated,
[SPEAKER_01]: By that point, it became clear that Connor Griffin was better than we ever thought he was coming into the season and then it was just watch out, it was just a rocket ship of the season, but you got to have the fun of really kind of rolling up the sleeves and diving in to what makes Connor Griffin.
[SPEAKER_01]: our number one prospect.
[SPEAKER_01]: What did you come away from your reporting, from your grinding of tape, from your watching of the everything you could get your hands on about chronograph.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I'm going to first use this as an opportunity when when you're on the cover of the book and I'm holding it up for the podcast audience, the prospect handbook, pretty safe chance you're going to feed.
[SPEAKER_00]: Number one in this system.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you to everyone who buys the prospect
[SPEAKER_00]: to answer your question.
[SPEAKER_00]: As I rolled the sleeves up with Connor Griffin, a couple things really stood out to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: The first being compared to what we saw as a high schooler when he was drafted.
[SPEAKER_00]: Even when he was in Bridge League,
[SPEAKER_00]: to what we saw when he showed up in string training the next year.
[SPEAKER_00]: The physical transformation of Connor Griffin in a fairly short, compressed timeline was remarkable.
[SPEAKER_00]: To see the strength and the weight that he added, the athleticism, the explosion, you know, I,
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't write up as many systems as others here.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've obviously never written up an athlete with the tool set that Connor Griffin has and just the sheer physical ability that impacts the game in so many different ways.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I was really struck at
[SPEAKER_00]: what the physical transformation unlocked for him as far as power potential at the plate but also just his ability to move in the field.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it showed up in that kind of translates into the second point where one of the biggest things for Griffin in addition to everything he did at the plate.
[SPEAKER_00]: was the, how good the shortstop defense was.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that really became a separator for him going into this season a year ago, I would have put the odds, it was more likely he ends up in center field.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he made such progress again in a short amount of time as a shortstop defender to the point where
[SPEAKER_00]: You had scouts come back to us early in the air saying, I think this is already a above average shortstop.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think this could be a plus shortstop.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the way that he moves at shortstop is unlike what you see from a lot of players and even players of his size.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's a big dude at 6-4, 225.
[SPEAKER_00]: So as I just kept coming back to it, his ability to translate his athleticism,
[SPEAKER_00]: and to offense into defense on the bases.
[SPEAKER_00]: And also, once you start having conversations with folks with the pirates, they couldn't stop talking about his aptitude and his ability to make changes in such a short amount of time, which I think is indicative of exceptional prospect and exceptional player.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think some of the swing changes and some of the things he was able to accomplish as far as moving out, his swing to make not only more contact but better contact in the zones throughout the season, there was just a lot of growth in a very tight window.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's to me, it's we've talked about this, I'm sure at some point on the podcast, but one of the things that stands out to me about Connor Griffin that more than even the production,
[SPEAKER_01]: what you just said, that the fact that he has already shown the aptitude to make significant adjustments and improvements makes me feel really good.
[SPEAKER_01]: No one in this game gets to just cruise through a 15 year major league career and just goes, well, the way that worked for me on day one in the majors is going to work for me in, you know, when I'm 35.
[SPEAKER_01]: Everyone has to make
[SPEAKER_01]: improvements so quickly that ability to take this is the problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: Here's a approach to fix it and then fix it and then move on.
[SPEAKER_01]: Makes me feel really good about his ability to do that when he faces that next hurdle and that next hurdle.
[SPEAKER_01]: When you talk about his defense at shortstop, the thing one of the things that stands out is like,
[SPEAKER_01]: I kind of always body-complies.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do see a lot of microut, like there aren't many guys who I would describe as have a really good chiseled head.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then you see a neck and the neck seems like it just doesn't fit the head.
[SPEAKER_01]: It seems like it's been Photoshopped on.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's Connor Griffin.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's microut when microut was coming up.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when you watch him, because he did play like he was the best defense of outfielder that the Pirates had in spring training last year it felt like.
[SPEAKER_01]: He does also though that ability to track baseballs in the air, you see it at shortstop too.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like he is, Ellie Dale Cruz has this kind of attribute, I think as well, which is that,
[SPEAKER_01]: that kind of like that belief that when the ball's in the air and it's going back over your head that you can make that play is something that a whole lot of short stops just don't really have.
[SPEAKER_01]: Kind of grip and love to go like make a play in short center field on a ball that really could best be described as lands in kind of that perfect area where if you're a hitter you feel like that that's kind of that the 5.5-hole
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't go there against Connor Griffin.
[SPEAKER_01]: He is the ability to make those places.
[SPEAKER_01]: He made multiple those places watching him just, you know, this many places we could.
[SPEAKER_01]: The arm really plays it short.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's just, okay, I before we move on from Connor Griffin, I want to ask this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, what is it that he, what is it that there is at least a little bit of worry about?
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to make no one is the perfect prospect.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would've said like with Kevin McGonagall that Kevin McGonagall as a hitter, there's just not a whole lot of things I'm really worried about because he just shows so many things.
[SPEAKER_01]: Connor Griffin is not as pure a hitter as Kevin McGonagall I would say, but I also with Connor Griffin like.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would really struggle to figure out a way that Connor Griffin is not a consistently long-term, productive, bigly regular.
[SPEAKER_01]: He just does so many different things.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, is there anything that jumped out to you?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, oh, this is his next step of improvement.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, and that's why I think even if the hit tool takes a little bit longer than the rest, we had this discussion with potential rookie of the year, I think that his defensive value power is based running like there's a lot of different paths to accumulating war and value with him even if it takes a little bit longer hitting.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think one of the interesting things with him is that there really was never a period last year, where he struggled.
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't really know, there was never that cat mouse game with
[SPEAKER_00]: pitchers and learning kind of what what he needs to do to get better outside of a very brief stretch at the beginning of the season.
[SPEAKER_00]: It like a two or three week stretch where he struck out it was close to 30% of the time and he identified at least this we came back in conversations we had that he was having issues picking up spin.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that that was something that he continued to work on throughout the season, even when he got to high-a.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know he spent a ton of time in the cages just getting spun to death, so he could keep seeing it getting better at reacting to it, figuring out when to go and pitch it in the strike zone versus
[SPEAKER_00]: laying off.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you were to quibble, there might be some concerns with breaking balls, especially if he starts the year in the majors, there could be an adjustment period there.
[SPEAKER_00]: He didn't walk a ton when he got to Al tuna.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the walk rate could stand to come up a little bit, but that was only when he got to Al tuna.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was after it said it's you know, 20 games,
[SPEAKER_01]: He walked a lot when he was at Greensboro and Hi-A, when he was also still one of the youngest players in the league.
[SPEAKER_01]: He walked when he was in the Florida State League, so I'm just putting out like it wasn't something where this was a long-term issue, it was like in this little slice of the season we could say it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, this whole rise has been a little slight, you know, like, and that's, as we talk about, like, whether, you know, is he their opening day shortstop, the precedent of players with, with, he has what, 98 double A played appearances, total, at least when you look back at number one prospects,
[SPEAKER_00]: There has, I think, going back to Bryce Harper, there's never been a number of preseason number one at baseball America who made his major league debut with that small, a few amount of, um, upper minor experience.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you mentioned trout, like trout's kind of the analog, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: We're trout,
[SPEAKER_00]: spent some time at AA, then came up the next year, then get sent back down, but even trout was 412 fleet appearances AA, so it's, you know, the one who comes to mind, who is, like if you, if, if Connor Griffin was going to make his debut opening day.
[SPEAKER_01]: it would be a one soda level.
[SPEAKER_01]: That would be the guy who you could say of a prominent star and you could say one soda pretty much just showed up and it was like, oh, now one soda.
[SPEAKER_01]: It also had in the minors and then in the majors as well, a Ted Williams ask batting eye like he was immediately one of the most disciplined patient hitters in the majors as a 19 year old.
[SPEAKER_01]: That kind of thing
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't blame the Pirates.
[SPEAKER_01]: The Pirates made moves.
[SPEAKER_01]: It would have been idiotic for the Pirates to said, hey, we're kind of weak at shortstop until Connor Griffin arrives.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're gonna make a big splash at shortstop for the next however appear to time.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I just struggled to imagine in spring training, having Nick and Zollis playing at shortstop regularly and then having Connor Griffin play there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Players are player, players are smart.
[SPEAKER_01]: coaches are smart.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can lay out or whatever you want, but no one even if he has a couple of times where it's like, oh, that was a little bit inexperienced there or whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's nothing that Nick Gonzalez does better than kind of Griffin.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's literally nothing on the field that Nick Gonzalez can do.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's not a better shortstop defensively.
[SPEAKER_01]: He has a worse arm.
[SPEAKER_01]: He does not hit the ball as hard.
[SPEAKER_01]: He does not run as fast.
[SPEAKER_01]: He probably is not as good a hitter
[SPEAKER_01]: So the challenge they're gonna have is even if he struggles a little bit at times it's bringing training.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's gonna be obvious that this guy, I saw the Paul Scheme's quote that we were recording this and came up just like I'm excited because he's gonna help us win a lot of games this year.
[SPEAKER_01]: That team is going to want him to be there because they're not dumb.
[SPEAKER_01]: And even if there are little like you just said, if he has a, if he arrives on opening day and in April,
[SPEAKER_01]: He goes, oh, for 20 to start.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's still gonna be helping the team in ways because he is gonna provide defense.
[SPEAKER_01]: He is gonna provide athleticism anytime he walks or reaches on a fielder's choice or whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's a guy who could go first to third on a ball that you should be able to or go first to home when you're like, wait, how did he score?
[SPEAKER_01]: He has all those attributes as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be really fun to watch and I would again, like the other thing about it
[SPEAKER_01]: has to be a reminder for them.
[SPEAKER_01]: They got the worst of both worlds there.
[SPEAKER_01]: They didn't bring schemes up.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you can get the PPI pick and he got the full year of service time.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you hold Conner Griffin back, which again, it's not crazy to do that, considering how little AA experience he has.
[SPEAKER_01]: But if you do, then he comes up and he wins rookie of the year or he finishes high in MVP voting next couple years.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's gonna get that year of service time anyway, potentially.
[SPEAKER_01]: So from a service time perspective, there's not a whole lot of reason to hold them back.
[SPEAKER_01]: This one's going to be a longer one because we also, I don't want to skip.
[SPEAKER_01]: Two, three, four on this list are all studs too.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I don't want to skip on Baba Chandler, Edward Florentino or Sephirn Andas.
[SPEAKER_01]: The top of the system is why this is our number one system and it's not just kind of different.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think, well, with Bubba Chandler too, and I think it's interesting that you mentioned the skin's quote and skin's is using whatever influence he has to maybe impact when we see Connor Griffin because both skins and Bubba Chandler were on the other end of it, where I think the pirates took too long with both of those guys to bring them up, and I'm sure that
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, there's some regret there.
[SPEAKER_00]: We just got done doing our A's deep dive.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know the A's regret not just turn into an occurred son on opening day last year and netting a pic.
[SPEAKER_00]: So all the incentive is there and yeah, I agree with you like, you know, they have four guys inside of our top 40 and believe on the and baseball America top 100.
[SPEAKER_00]: there.
[SPEAKER_00]: When we were doing our farm system rankings, I thought the brewers had a very compelling case for number one.
[SPEAKER_00]: When you look at just maybe what's beyond the top five, but at the end of the day like, you know, the value at the top here could be so astronomical with these three or four guys
[SPEAKER_00]: It's super exciting and yeah, I would love to dive into to Bubba.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think Florentino and Hernandez are fascinating.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that the combination of Griffin and Florentino and what that means for pirates hitting development.
[SPEAKER_00]: I suppose a caveat is needed to that there's there's still you'd be wanted to be skeptical for to a degree because we haven't seen some of these guys get to Pittsburgh.
[SPEAKER_00]: and it work out.
[SPEAKER_00]: Granted, these are different types of obviously different types of prospects, but there's still some work to be done.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think 14, especially like for all the love and buzzer over the off season, he's still a teenager who spent a short amount of time in low A, but the gains on the hitting side, specifically with this farm system and this player development group, has me a lot more optimistic against the overall health of the farm system relative to past seasons.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so let's, let's dive in, I'm gonna skip the order around a little bit here so we can, you know, so we will cover this in this, which is who's your guest being extra number one?
[SPEAKER_01]: I say that because this gives us a chance to talk a little bit about Florentino and Sephirnandas.
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll come back to Baba, we'll get Baba too, but like Conagriff and is gonna graduate this year, Barring Injury.
[SPEAKER_01]: Bubba Chandler is going to graduate this year barring injury.
[SPEAKER_01]: But Florentino is suffering and us.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a really good couple of guys to potentially be next year's number one as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's start with Florentino.
[SPEAKER_01]: You said like he was kind of
[SPEAKER_01]: Hard to say he was their breakout prospect in a year or Conner Griffin basically went from being a guy who was a first round pick, who was considered to be an impressive prospect to being the slam dunk.
[SPEAKER_01]: Everyone agrees, no one will make an argument almost, number one prospect in the game.
[SPEAKER_01]: But Florentino is more, I would say the more traditional kind of breakout prospect where a guy who was on the radar before, but really kind of emerged, I feel like, what really kind of stood out with Florentino,
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there's like two thirds of baseball that would kill for an Edward Florentino breakout and he's the second biggest in the system.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think he's fascinating because
[SPEAKER_00]: He was so rarely beat last year.
[SPEAKER_00]: Pictures couldn't beat him in the zone.
[SPEAKER_00]: They couldn't get him to go outside the zone.
[SPEAKER_00]: He had a really good idea of what to do with certain types of pitches.
[SPEAKER_00]: For his age, he's got a great frame.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's 64, I think, 200 pounds.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's
[SPEAKER_00]: room to keep packing on strength there, which suggests to me that there's some power potential, I think.
[SPEAKER_00]: His ex-evalossies were pretty good.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think they're going to keep getting better as he gets stronger.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's just a lot of really positive indicators to the type of hit or he could be pairing both.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, a really strong sense of the strike zone and hitting ability with some power.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that that is a great foundation to build on his case for number one for next year.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think he's going to hinge on which side of the center field argument he can stay on.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that there's a healthy amount of skepticism that he's going to be able to stick in center or frankly.
[SPEAKER_00]: if he continues to fill out like what kind of corner outfielder he might be just because he could continue to to get stronger yet bigger.
[SPEAKER_00]: But he was sneakily pretty good last year in centerfield on the base for a guy his size and he's not a burner.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's just really a fringe average runner.
[SPEAKER_00]: The pirates at least internally felt like he graded out decently as a centerfielder.
[SPEAKER_00]: I got a lot of feedback on him that he has similar level of aptitude to Connor Griffin as far as taking instruction and turning it into productivity on the field, I think he wants to really badly to prove that he can stick in center from everything that I've been able to gather.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if he comes out next this season and continues to exceed expectations as an outfielder,
[SPEAKER_00]: blend of abilities on both sides of the ball.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then there's also Cephren Anders, and I'm going to pick in 2025.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when I say he's going to be fascinating, what really stands out to me about him, and I want you to kind of take it wherever you want to go with it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But usually when you have a high school picture at the top of the class,
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of talent there, but then there's like, okay, but we're gonna have to really be careful here as this guy kind of settles in develops physically, fills out all that.
[SPEAKER_01]: From that standpoint, I felt like Seth Hernandez last year was more of his treatrucks for legs right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like physically, I feel better about where, like I feel like there's less need for physical development
[SPEAKER_01]: Then there is for many of the college pictures in last year's class.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, that does not take away the fact that this is a teenage picture who throws a really, you've got to be careful.
[SPEAKER_01]: You, you don't want to go overboard here, but.
[SPEAKER_01]: I also what I mean by that is is I don't feel like that this is a player who if they just say, hey, the goal is is that we're just going to leave him in the Florida state league for the entire T. Have a season.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like he's just going to be toying with hitters at some point and kind of be, you know, a little bit bored potentially because he is more advanced than your normal run of the mill.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would say high school
[SPEAKER_00]: And multiple people put the the quick mover obviously with some caveats if they are aware of the risk of high school arm, but he started to get the quick mover stamp on him everything that's come out of whether he the little bits that he had an instruct that he also posted himself on social and was able with people were able to see some of his teammates to other people in the organization and the excitement over the off season everything has been really positive.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would never dare predict a countergriff in S-Sension for a high school ready, but at this point,
[SPEAKER_00]: going through this process, I got more glowing reviews on Seth and where he was, since he was drafted, compared to a year ago with Griffin.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was that effusive in the praise.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think that, again, taking all of the risks into consideration with the high school ready, I don't think you could find a better pairing between player and organization than where he landed with the pirates
[SPEAKER_00]: They have a blueprint of working with similar types of high school arms and getting a ton of success out of them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Bubba Chandler was an extremely athletic high school ready, not nearly as polished as Seth, but a very athletic high school ready.
[SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, this is number two on this list.
[SPEAKER_00]: Jared Jones, ton of athleticism high school ready, Braxon Ashcraft, really good season last year, very athletic high school ready was a football player.
[SPEAKER_00]: The archetype is one that they've had a pretty good amount of success with, and the feedback they kept coming back with Hernandez was this guy is more advanced than all of them.
[SPEAKER_00]: The one, the one
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, Bubba Chandler's fastball has characteristics to it that are not easily replicated.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a golden fastball.
[SPEAKER_00]: But outside of that, like, they raved about Hernandez in a way that, you know, was even a little bit different from some of these other high school ready.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I do think he has a chance to to push up a little bit quicker than you might think for for a high school pitcher.
[SPEAKER_01]: Watching him pitch last year, in person at the NHSI, one of the things that just stood out is he maintains velocity and he does so without needing to like, this is not a guy who's just like grunting and straining to get to solve it.
[SPEAKER_01]: major lead caliber quality fast bubble honesty, but also has feel for multiple secondaries, lowcase like is athletic like again, this was a guy who if he hadn't been a pitcher would have been a legitimate prospect as position player.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, I don't know if he's a shortstop long-term, but again, like
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, one of the things I always comes to mind for me is this little bit of 100-grain that way.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, 100-grain was a legitimate prospect as a position player who was just too good as a pitcher, who also threw 100 in high school, kind of some of the similarities.
[SPEAKER_01]: And also was basically very physically developed already.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's where I feel better about him than I do a lot of these high school arms here, like, okay, there's still so much to come.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no more to, except for Nanda's does not get any physically bigger and stronger than he is right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: doesn't look out of place on the Major League now, it feels like to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and it sounds like he has gotten even stronger since he's since he's signed.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's really interesting that you mentioned both his performance at NHSI and Hunter Green out there Jackson Job and there too.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the other one that often is brought up alongside these two.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because the one thing that stood out to me watching that NHSI outing in one of the
[SPEAKER_00]: kernels of criticism that kept popping up with Hernandez in the pre-drive process was the fastball quality and the ability to miss bats even in that NHSI out and yet it had a handful of strikeouts, but there was a lot of high schoolers failing off the fastball.
[SPEAKER_00]: There were times where on the spring where some of our amateur feedback was a little surprised at how the fastball didn't notice it more whispered's velocity.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's something that the Pirates said they're aware of.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that that's really going to be the biggest area that we're going to have to dive in on with him this year is for the velocity.
[SPEAKER_00]: What is the actual shape of the pitch
[SPEAKER_00]: I wouldn't be surprised if he's been tinkering.
[SPEAKER_00]: It sounds like maybe tinkering with some fastball grips.
[SPEAKER_00]: Another going to plan to work with him on a usage pattern for it that might make a little bit more sense.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I mean, fastball quality will really dictate how high at the top 100 he gets, how high up this list.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the rest of the arsenal is really impressive.
[SPEAKER_00]: That changeup was probably the best changeup in last year's draft class.
[SPEAKER_00]: basically over the last year plus changed the shape of his slider.
[SPEAKER_00]: It sounds like did a lot of that himself.
[SPEAKER_00]: He just realized that his previous slider shape didn't fit his arsenal turned into a harder pitch, a tighter pitch.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's actually more of like, I think he does it with more like a cutter grip.
[SPEAKER_00]: So he's got a pretty mature understanding of how his four pitches should work together.
[SPEAKER_00]: If that fastball, if he, you know, sounds as some of those concerns, and at the end of the day, like if he's sitting up or not, he's if he's, if it ends up being, you know, Jackson Joe Hunter Green has velocity that he can sustain, you know, I don't want to go crazy with it, but that's really what I'm most fascinated to see this year.
[SPEAKER_01]: So looking at the system overall.
[SPEAKER_01]: So a number one farm system in baseball is clearly better than was last year because kind of griffin, but it's not just kind of griffin, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: I would, of the top guys in our system, they just drafted Cephrane and does.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would say the Bubba Chandler is the one where you could say there was a little bit of rocky waters at times last year for Bubba.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would say overall, like that's the one we haven't covered, like where do you kind of see where Bubba is now compared to where he was a year ago?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a good question, and it's a tough one too, because the feedback that we kept getting even from scouts, external scouts who went in to see him during his trip last struggles last year.
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of it was attributed to fastball command, but a lot of it too was a, there's some element of he didn't get called up, and we got feedback like, you know, he just looks frustrated.
[SPEAKER_00]: He looks a little disinterested.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that there was some residual impact
[SPEAKER_00]: Getting slow played out of the gate last year, then he lost his fastball command I was a little concerned with how long it took him to regain that and I think that the slider the development of his slider has been pretty slow I think that there are times where it looks like above average pitch plus pitch borderline plus pitch and then other times you know he struggles to kind of get a feel for it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So those were concerns
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you got to the majors and I think you walked what four matters in 31 innings or something like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, um, he was able to to dial it in.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, I'm not overly concerned.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, last year, Trace Average obviously pitched in the world series.
[SPEAKER_00]: Nolan McLean was the best pitcher on a medsortation that had playoff aspirations.
[SPEAKER_00]: Chandler's pro debut was a lot more anonymous, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: That there was a lot of meaningless baseball in Pittsburgh by the end of the year, but he was quietly very good in the major.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm not overly concerned with him.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we also kind of want to look at it.
[SPEAKER_01]: You said, like, with the bananas that you felt like this is a good melding of organization and player.
[SPEAKER_01]: When you look at the pirates overall, like I would say, like even with Conner Griffin's arrival, impending arrival.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is, there is not much proof as of yet that the pirates and Connor Griffin could be the outlier where it's like, okay, that does not necessarily prove that you have turned a corner and it comes to the hitting development.
[SPEAKER_01]: You could basically have lasso to comment and just hung on for the ride.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, because again, when we talk about the catchers, that all these catchers they have, and Henry Davis's development, for example.
[SPEAKER_01]: We've been people of, you know, with Tramar Johnson, I think still think that Tramar Johnson, who's still on our top 10, like, is going to be a big leagueer and could be a big league regular.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just that the bat is not the level that we thought.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that we just kind of want to see tomorrow kind of step a little, like I just keep saying, I want to step a little closer to the plate.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I do think that he doesn't cover the plate all that while right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: There are things that he hopefully will be able to improve, but
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a pitching, when he comes to what is this order, is it's a good at developing?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's been pitching much more than hitting us.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not like is that turning a corner now or where do you think it is?
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, I think it's too early to say it's turning a corner for the point you just made.
[SPEAKER_00]: Although, you, you know, anyone deserves credit for identifying an exceptional thing and figuring out how to not mess it up, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, like Connor Griffin had a tremendous year and some of that credit should go to the player for the work that he did in the offices and he took it upon himself to put in a lot of work.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the team has helped him, too.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think that it's, it's trending in the right direction,
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, we still need to see it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm fascinated by the short answer to your questions.
[SPEAKER_00]: I still feel like it's pitching.
[SPEAKER_00]: And when you look at this system, there are some really interesting arms who I think could slot into roles that will allow them to make an impact this year without over leveraging them, like Antoine Kelly or Wilbur do Tell or Hunter Barco.
[SPEAKER_00]: Some of these guys could end up being in that bullpen by the end of the year.
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, aren't starting pitchers.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's because the pirates have a tremendous rotation.
[SPEAKER_00]: You made a point earlier that the pirates did some things, you know, covering up other positions with short term additions, whether it's Brandon Lau, Ryan O'Hourne,
[SPEAKER_00]: Marcelo Azuna.
[SPEAKER_00]: They didn't do that at shortstop, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's like the one position where they didn't do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: But they did do it at some positions where we also have guys here who are pretty close to making an impact, which caught my attention to Mar being one of them.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that bringing in just
[SPEAKER_00]: The upper level hitters weren't where they needed it to be because they haven't been able to maybe develop it at the rate that the day it hoped.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think those two guys are really interesting acquisitions because the risk profile there is pretty, not only is it very similar between the two players, but it's pretty high.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a path to Garcia and Ford's never making enough contact to carve out useful, big league roles.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think there's some interesting stuff happening on the hitting side, but I'm not quite ready to say that all has been fixed.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do think with this the other part about this that you just laid out there is that I'm going to be interested in watching is this is also an argument for Connor Griffin, but I do worry about this team at the big league level of defense, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a very good pitching staff and to their credit, a lot of these pictures who are really good, Paul schemes can miss bats, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Baba Chandler at his prime can miss bats.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're hoping a healthy Jared Jones at some point
[SPEAKER_01]: But you do look at it and you could judge triolo's not bad defensively, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Spentra Horowitz at first is fine, probably fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, play if he's playing second or somewhere else he's probably not as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: The outfield, Ryan O'Hurn's gonna have play a lot of outfield now.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Ryan O'Hurn is not gonna be, you know, he's not gonna be very range out there.
[SPEAKER_01]: O'Neill Cruz, you're hoping can develop into a center field or who's good defensively?
[SPEAKER_01]: That has not happened yet.
[SPEAKER_01]: So,
[SPEAKER_01]: If you said, like, what is where could this go wrong at the big league level?
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm a little worried.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's I would look at this and say, I just wish that there was a little bit more all around here, defense and offense.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like they've got guys who they've added guys who can at Brandon Lau at second is going to be a better offense of player and you're hoping that he but defensively like he's a little older now.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like there's
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of like, okay, I, this could work, but that's where I do think that the Garcia's and all some of the moves they've made could also be important because those are guys who you could end up seeing earning larger playing times shares if they're hitting because it's like, oh, this guy makes us better defensively as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: Figuring out which of the what kind of combo of catchers is going to be the the pirates catching combo and I think that defense playing you know probably a A significant role in that as well like it's kind of a question that I'm interested that were maybe also you know again like the Jake mangums of the world may be important like That would be interesting to see how this lays out this is the do believe the longest video deep dive portion we've done
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're on the video side, you know, check out the podcast we're going to have even a little bit more.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe a little bit less on this one than some of them because we've already gone for quite a while.
[SPEAKER_01]: But if you are on the podcast side, stick around and we'll be back right after this quick break.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we covered, I feel like not everyone in the top 10, but we covered the top 10 pretty well.
[SPEAKER_01]: Before we get into guys, you like outside of the top 10.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's one guy who's not in the top 10 who I did want to ask about, because I do feel like that Esmeralyn Valdez, who's number 11, and you and I spent a lot of time talking about the construction of, I would say about 7 through 14 in the rankings are pretty close together.
[SPEAKER_01]: But Valdez is an interesting one because I would describe him
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the highest risk highest reward of this group in that you could easily construct a case for why this guy never ends up having a significant majorly career.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you could flip side, I could also construct a case for where, if it all clicks, that this guy is significantly more valuable and more productive than a number of guys ahead of him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Kind of how, you know, where you kind of on doubt as and what he could be or what he needs to improve to get to being a big league
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean to your point, he ranked third last year in the miners among players 21 or Younger and Homers.
[SPEAKER_00]: I won't behind only Ryan Clifford and Lazaro Montes.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is legit juice.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm fairly skeptical that he's going to be able to make enough contact against premium breaking balls.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think he has a fairly steep swing that even some fastballs up in his own could be an issue for him.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just a tough profile because to your point about some of the defensive limitations he's not going to be an answer or someone that you look at and say, well,
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, he could add some value at first base or in right field that, you know, I think he's at best kind of a fringe average defender likely, you know, we have a 40 on him is I don't think there's going to be much, much value there.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think there is a healthy amount of skepticism to and not only for me, but from the scouts that we talked with in some of the swinging vests and some of the contact issues.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you square that against against the power and you know, what he did last year was remarkable.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that some of the refinement and then when you look at some of the additions that they've made kind of the glutton, the corner that we're seeing in 26, it'd be a little surprised if he makes too much of a major league impact this year.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, yeah, that's why he ultimately felt just outside of the top 10.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so who you like who outside of the top 10 really stands out to you as someone that the power of fans should be keeping an eye on?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, I think why it's an effort to top 10 prospecting a lot of other systems.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think injuries last year, maybe hampered his ability to work his way up to slow a little bit more.
[SPEAKER_00]: I wouldn't be surprised if he's right back squarely in the top 10 and short order.
[SPEAKER_00]: The fascinating thing about this system is that the range of outcomes for some of these guys in the upside with guys even deep down this this 30 is pretty remarkable.
[SPEAKER_00]: Rinal Navarro is like the perfect example of that teenage left hand in arm, our the stuff plus models that we use, graded his fastball even better than Bubba Chandlers.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is an exceptional pitch with ride run characteristics, gets a ton of swing and miss.
[SPEAKER_00]: His slider is more of just like a hard gyro slider that pairs really well with it.
[SPEAKER_00]: The problem is that
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think he knows certainly hitters don't know where the ball is going to end up.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just complete scattershot, command right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: But he's someone that we have ranked 16th right now where the range of outcomes is vast.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you don't, you know, they're going to be out exactly where he might not even get out of the first inning because he's just struggling to find strikes.
[SPEAKER_00]: But if it all comes together, you're looking at it.
[SPEAKER_00]: potential closer, I think.
[SPEAKER_00]: Honestly, you know, again, this is not, this is disclaimer, this is not a comp, but when you watch him pitch, left handed, he's like a compact Chapman, the way that he like gets down the mound, the way that he looks and operates.
[SPEAKER_00]: So he's a fascinating guy for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I really like on a flip side, like you talk about tools and upside that's not necessarily do's Gorson.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's not the tools of this guy, but he's someone that quietly added pretty significant year over your exit velocity gains, added strength, found a way to tap into his power a little bit more multi-positional guy.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think to your point about, hey, is anyone in the upper levels that can play some defense?
[SPEAKER_00]: We might need you this year.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can move around if you'll even play it a little first.
[SPEAKER_00]: Gorson's the type where the ceiling is not, you know, the same as maybe some guys around him, even in this list.
[SPEAKER_00]: But if you look back on it in a year or two and he's just conspiring, sorry, more than a year or two, you know, five, seven years and he's just consistently racking up one and a half win seasons, two win seasons, I wouldn't be surprised.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's a guy that we got a lot of positive feedback both internally and externally.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, before we wrap this up, I have to mention one other guy because I've said that O'Neil Cruz has set my new standard as far as like him at the home run derby last year, he hit a ball that I'm like, okay, I can now retire Joey Gallo as my BP hero and then O'Neil Cruz is there, but the pirates do have one other guy in the organization who if you just said we're going to have a BP, you know, a power display, you know, battle.
[SPEAKER_01]: Tony Blocko Jr. would, again, would be able to match him as far as raw power swing for swing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, he's also 29th on this list for a reason, which is there are real questions about how much contact he's going to make.
[SPEAKER_01]: But there aren't many guys, you know, that we even think about putting an 80 on a, a tool like power.
[SPEAKER_01]: Tony Blocko Jr. has hits the ball hard as hard as anybody.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, the
[SPEAKER_01]: big league production down the road.
[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously there are a lot of questions I would imagine there.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's why you haven't 29.
[SPEAKER_00]: If not him who, if it's an 80 power, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: That was a fun one.
[SPEAKER_00]: We had a note that in the Arizona Fully, he had about 120.4 miles per hour, would have tied Vladimir Guerrero Jr last year for the second hardest hit ball in the majors to your point, only other only old crews in show, where the other two to surpass.
[SPEAKER_00]: 120 miles an hour.
[SPEAKER_00]: You hit on one of two key concerns.
[SPEAKER_00]: He missed swings and misses a lot.
[SPEAKER_00]: There are real issues both inside and chasing out of the zone.
[SPEAKER_00]: The other is that he just hasn't been able to stand the field.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's
[SPEAKER_00]: So big and and got so big so early that I think his body is taking some time to to catch up again.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just don't think that there was enough strength last year to withstand of full season of swings, which it's kind of crazy to say, but he's a lot of work 283 at 19 years old.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no real, you know, the names that put in the scouting report is like a potential comparison is based on like a body type or like a Miguel Sino, you know, but it's just I think it's an uphill battle for him to simply be able to string together a healthy season and if you can, it obviously inhibits the ability to refine the hit tool, but.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's a perfect example of when I guess we'll see how long you let me keep doing it as you edit these chapters of like I'm never going to quit this in like the 25 to 30 you know like it's it's unbelievable power you're never going to have me say that because I'm the same way like I there I will get burned every now and then but over the years those are the kind of guys that you want to have at the back of your list just because
[SPEAKER_01]: when you get to the back of a 30 and you're choosing between one guy who is like, well, the best case scenario is he might be a good utility in builder or, you know, he could pitch the 6th if everything breaks right.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you got this one other guy and you're like, if everything breaks right, he could lead the major leagues in home runs.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, even if it's a small, small opportunity, a small chance,
[SPEAKER_01]: feel like you kind of got to leave that guy on the list because if you say like oh we didn't get that guy who ended up being a solid fit the sixth inning reliever that's a bummer.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you didn't rank the guy who ended up, you know, let's even just say having a 25 home run season, you know, some point that really would, that would leave a mark.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's a reason, by the way, it is, the late, you know, Tony Blanco's junior was actually, he won the home run derby at the Arizona fall league home run derby.
[SPEAKER_01]: and also talked about it like his father was one of the unfortunately one of the people killed in that roof collapse that happened last off season.
[SPEAKER_01]: But you've got Tony Blocko Jr. and Wilton Guerrero Jr. at the back of the list, which is again, making me feel old because, you know, I've, there are a whole lot of players now that we're covering, I'm covering the sons of the players that I also covered the, uh,
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, the ads and do remember the lineage in this top 30.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, my, all fonts out, staff, played in the big leagues.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there's a lot of good bloodlines.
[SPEAKER_01]: But that is our baseball america prospect podcast deep dive on the Pittsburgh pirates and we'd buy the way we know again, we didn't even get a chance to cover a lot of these guys because it's hard not to take a lot of time to spend some time on the kind of griffins on the suffering and as is in the Edward for Latinos the world.
[SPEAKER_01]: But if you do enjoy this, do check out we have so much more over at baseballamerica.com.
[SPEAKER_01]: And also we have, we're doing 30 of these deep dives and there's so much more content on the baseball America podcast feed and also on the baseball America YouTube page where we try to keep you know a steady stream of content coming year round.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you enjoyed this, please do check that out and subscribe and you know again, we want to keep that way you will know the next time we were putting out more of content like this.
[SPEAKER_01]: For Mark, I'm JJ, so long everybody.