WEBVTT 00:01.870 --> 00:07.983 [SPEAKER_02]: Welcome to another episode of Shooting the Shit with Literary Agents, Carly Waters, and CC Lyra. 00:08.484 --> 00:13.834 [SPEAKER_02]: Where we dissect publishing gossip, discuss book industry trends, and the overall state of the book business. 00:14.255 --> 00:18.985 [SPEAKER_02]: If you'd ever wanted to grab a coffee with two literary agents, grab your mug, and pull up a chair. 00:26.373 --> 00:38.470 [SPEAKER_02]: Hey everybody, welcome back to another special episode of Shooting the Shit, every episode of this special episode because it's Mondays and we just love chatting with you about everything that's on our mind so thanks for hanging out. 00:39.171 --> 00:45.820 [SPEAKER_02]: I had a question for Cecie which was did you get any further in heated rivalry because I knew you did say that you might know. 00:45.980 --> 00:46.781 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. 00:46.801 --> 00:51.688 [SPEAKER_01]: I will, I still have it on my list but okay so it's not my fault, it's Sansa's fault. 00:51.668 --> 00:53.111 [SPEAKER_01]: I watch the songs so show. 00:53.211 --> 00:54.253 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know songs as name. 00:54.334 --> 00:55.155 [SPEAKER_01]: I show it. 00:55.175 --> 00:57.400 [SPEAKER_01]: Is it called steel, stolen? 00:57.420 --> 00:59.544 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know the show's name, but I watch the whole thing. 00:59.965 --> 01:01.729 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's obviously very time-consuming, right? 01:01.749 --> 01:03.152 [SPEAKER_01]: Because I watched every single episode. 01:03.553 --> 01:04.234 [SPEAKER_01]: It's very good. 01:04.755 --> 01:06.699 [SPEAKER_01]: And so that was all my TV time. 01:07.040 --> 01:10.487 [SPEAKER_01]: But I will, but again, I'm not feeling the pull, the pull of the story. 01:10.467 --> 01:14.716 [SPEAKER_01]: And I have actually quite a few listeners, DM, made to be like, see, say, you're not alone. 01:14.916 --> 01:16.399 [SPEAKER_01]: I also didn't fall in love with it. 01:16.419 --> 01:17.000 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, it's good. 01:17.040 --> 01:18.423 [SPEAKER_01]: Are you saying you're okay? 01:18.443 --> 01:19.004 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm okay. 01:19.044 --> 01:20.166 [SPEAKER_01]: But I wasn't obsessed. 01:20.287 --> 01:24.695 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's actually really interesting when something like becomes such a cultural phenomenon. 01:24.736 --> 01:25.978 [SPEAKER_01]: There's always people who are like, 01:25.958 --> 01:27.923 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god, what's wrong with me that I won't love it? 01:27.983 --> 01:29.025 [SPEAKER_01]: I want to love it too. 01:29.065 --> 01:30.248 [SPEAKER_01]: I want to be kind of this. 01:30.549 --> 01:38.829 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm still going to get into it or try to get into it anyway because I do think that because and how popular it is and the fact that it's based on a book, I kind of want to dissect the storytelling. 01:38.849 --> 01:41.335 [SPEAKER_01]: Like I want to do it for my nerdy purposes. 01:41.315 --> 01:44.641 [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, but my current obsession has been Sansa's show. 01:45.242 --> 01:46.744 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, she'll always be Sansa for me. 01:46.764 --> 01:54.898 [SPEAKER_02]: I also want to share one of our fellow book podcasters and a battle paper, the ladies over there are doing any rivalry breakdowns. 01:54.918 --> 01:57.282 [SPEAKER_02]: So if you are looking for podcasters, 01:57.262 --> 01:59.306 [SPEAKER_02]: who are going to be talking about the books in the show. 01:59.406 --> 02:06.642 [SPEAKER_02]: I know the bad on paper ladies did it episode or maybe they continue to do more episodes but I know they definitely have one episode so people can head over. 02:06.662 --> 02:12.454 [SPEAKER_01]: Now I want to do more and I want to watch it even more because I want to then listen to the awesome bad on paper. 02:12.995 --> 02:16.823 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm on my second rewatch of the show but I also have been watching the pit. 02:16.803 --> 02:23.579 [SPEAKER_02]: Which comes at weekly and very focused on that and obviously all the reading that I have to do You think they're so fast. 02:23.619 --> 02:26.186 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like can I do what do you think show should I read what should I do? 02:26.627 --> 02:32.641 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I also started to show every day or not like oh my god, no every day No, I don't do an hour to be every day. 02:33.142 --> 02:34.626 [SPEAKER_02]: I probably 02:35.332 --> 02:40.399 [SPEAKER_02]: Honestly, like a week or two weeks could go by sometimes it'll be watching TV. 02:40.879 --> 02:41.380 [SPEAKER_00]: Interesting. 02:41.881 --> 02:44.825 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's just something I do an hour every every month. 02:44.965 --> 02:46.387 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's our couch time. 02:46.787 --> 02:48.109 [SPEAKER_01]: It's our we call it couch time. 02:48.149 --> 02:50.612 [SPEAKER_01]: We just live and watch an hour every evening. 02:50.653 --> 02:51.894 [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, I love it. 02:51.994 --> 02:53.616 [SPEAKER_01]: I love it because it's like still storytelling. 02:53.657 --> 02:55.539 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's still feeling obsessive. 02:55.559 --> 02:56.260 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 02:56.240 --> 03:04.149 [SPEAKER_01]: But it's much more passive right because you know your imaginations not being leveraged in the same way together Right or is like you can't read a book like side-by-side together. 03:04.209 --> 03:08.955 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, because I love that Yeah, plus it's used to eat more popcorn because you know I love eating popcorn. 03:09.115 --> 03:25.875 [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, yeah, well I should say I actually do watch a movie a week, but it's because as a family we sit down and watch a movie and have popcorn on Fridays And so we watch Disney zombies, which is like a kids musical like a high school musical 03:25.855 --> 03:27.458 [SPEAKER_02]: people who've seen it know what I'm talking about. 03:27.478 --> 03:28.860 [SPEAKER_02]: It's basically high school musical. 03:29.041 --> 03:31.265 [SPEAKER_02]: So I do watch a movie, we do watch a movie as a family. 03:31.285 --> 03:36.534 [SPEAKER_02]: So I don't get a lot of let's say at all it's quality time or setting up my husband on the couch time. 03:36.895 --> 03:38.678 [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I think it's just that stage of my life. 03:38.958 --> 03:39.559 [SPEAKER_02]: So we had a couple. 03:39.579 --> 03:41.543 [SPEAKER_02]: We had a big list of things we want to talk about today. 03:41.643 --> 03:44.127 [SPEAKER_02]: I want to talk about I have a grape. 03:44.147 --> 03:45.670 [SPEAKER_02]: I want to talk about quite quitting. 03:45.835 --> 03:49.059 [SPEAKER_02]: CC has some things she wants to get off of her chest. 03:49.960 --> 03:54.506 [SPEAKER_02]: We also have a bunch of Instagram kind of posts that popped up on our feeds that we really enjoyed. 03:54.546 --> 03:57.810 [SPEAKER_02]: We also, I don't know if we have so much to talk about. 03:57.990 --> 04:01.354 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I also want to talk about publishing our publishing pet peeves. 04:01.494 --> 04:03.977 [SPEAKER_02]: I have a bunch of little pet peeves that have been piling up. 04:04.498 --> 04:06.700 [SPEAKER_02]: So I need to get those off my chest. 04:06.760 --> 04:11.386 [SPEAKER_02]: And then we have an author kind of writer follow our DM that we want to get to. 04:11.406 --> 04:12.748 [SPEAKER_02]: So we have lots of good stuff today. 04:13.228 --> 04:14.610 [SPEAKER_02]: CC, where do you want to start? 04:15.518 --> 04:20.263 [SPEAKER_01]: I want to start about hearing about this quiet quitting situation, as I'm curious, isn't it? 04:21.526 --> 04:24.510 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh my gosh, I'm so annoyed by this. 04:24.970 --> 04:46.256 [SPEAKER_02]: So publishers in their contracts have option clauses, which involve a number of things like the material that needs to be submitted, the timeline that it needs to be submitted by and often, at least on my contracts, the amount of time that the editor or publisher has to take to kind of get back to you to make a decision, so that clients can go on their way, you know, whether it's a fit this way or that way. 04:46.276 --> 04:50.841 [SPEAKER_02]: So there's it's a pretty meaty clause that goes through all the parameters 04:50.821 --> 04:53.254 [SPEAKER_02]: What a what what appropriate amount of time is. 04:53.817 --> 04:59.245 [SPEAKER_02]: So I sent a client's option project in July to a publisher. 05:00.035 --> 05:02.699 [SPEAKER_02]: And the author's book did really well. 05:02.959 --> 05:04.301 [SPEAKER_02]: And I should prep us all of this. 05:04.321 --> 05:05.443 [SPEAKER_02]: The author's book did well. 05:05.643 --> 05:09.048 [SPEAKER_02]: So it sold well was a great book. 05:09.489 --> 05:11.511 [SPEAKER_02]: It, or doubt, it's advanced. 05:11.892 --> 05:16.759 [SPEAKER_02]: The author has continued to earn royalties years after the book came out. 05:16.939 --> 05:20.544 [SPEAKER_02]: So all in all, I should prep us this with a successful project. 05:20.564 --> 05:22.347 [SPEAKER_02]: So I say, I send the, 05:22.748 --> 05:52.215 [SPEAKER_02]: option project to a publisher and take forever to hear back from them and then they come back with like a few questions and then I get the answers for them and then it's a month for them to get back to me it's like oh we need to do a couple more questions another month to get back to me let's set a call with the authors to ask some questions more questions so it's like a completely long drawn out process and then by December I still hadn't heard from them 05:52.195 --> 05:59.423 [SPEAKER_02]: And so frustrating, like I followed up with a, you know, we need to make a decision on the authors need to be able to, you know, know whether they can go on their way. 05:59.463 --> 06:03.086 [SPEAKER_02]: And contractually, they are free to go on their way because it's been so long. 06:03.207 --> 06:07.871 [SPEAKER_02]: But a lot of, you know, the respected and due diligence of, you know, that partnership. 06:08.372 --> 06:09.613 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I can do your check out with them. 06:09.653 --> 06:16.320 [SPEAKER_02]: So a very frustrating kind of like I'm calling it quite quitting on this option project because they haven't officially passed on it. 06:16.861 --> 06:20.785 [SPEAKER_02]: But they're also not saying no, 06:21.490 --> 06:22.652 [SPEAKER_01]: But it's really annoying. 06:23.172 --> 06:28.560 [SPEAKER_01]: I wonder, like I do remember an agent once told me this is so many years ago, and I first started agenting. 06:28.961 --> 06:34.349 [SPEAKER_01]: I remember an agent told me that, you know, he sent over the auction work to the publisher. 06:34.989 --> 06:39.776 [SPEAKER_01]: publisher, it's not that they were dragging their feet, but they were like, very respectfully, we are swamped. 06:39.796 --> 06:41.078 [SPEAKER_01]: Can we please have a little bit more time? 06:41.098 --> 06:41.299 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 06:41.319 --> 06:42.440 [SPEAKER_01]: We did it was like that's fine. 06:42.500 --> 06:44.443 [SPEAKER_01]: And then the 06:44.643 --> 06:46.869 [SPEAKER_01]: editor started ghosting this agent. 06:46.889 --> 06:48.493 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it seemed wild to me, right? 06:48.513 --> 06:49.696 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you haven't booked together, et cetera. 06:50.016 --> 06:53.585 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't actually know what the track record was for the first book, so I can't offer that context. 06:53.826 --> 06:57.696 [SPEAKER_01]: But anyway, the part that shocked me was editor ghosted. 06:57.896 --> 07:02.247 [SPEAKER_01]: And then the agent, after following up multiple times, mind you, being like, hey, like, 07:02.648 --> 07:08.194 [SPEAKER_01]: After a while, the agent was like, well, my clients free to go because we fulfilled our contractual obligation. 07:08.214 --> 07:10.096 [SPEAKER_01]: We are very sad that this person is not answering us. 07:10.677 --> 07:15.643 [SPEAKER_01]: I remember they tried to loop in the senior area to be like, right, like nothing. 07:15.683 --> 07:16.284 [SPEAKER_01]: So, okay, cool. 07:17.124 --> 07:18.866 [SPEAKER_01]: Agent goes out with this mission, submission sells. 07:19.667 --> 07:24.393 [SPEAKER_01]: Publishers marketplace deal is announced right away, because this is not an agency that has to wait for the contract for the announcement. 07:24.873 --> 07:25.073 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. 07:25.094 --> 07:25.534 [SPEAKER_01]: And then. 07:26.375 --> 07:47.252 [SPEAKER_01]: editor follows up to be like, I'm very surprised to hear that, you know, this, this, this author's work went to, and he was like, do, do, what, like, I called you, I called you, I called you, like, and again, according to the story, the editor apparently was like, well, I thought that out of respect for our relationship, you wouldn't have shot it around, without telling me. 07:47.232 --> 07:48.274 [SPEAKER_01]: about it. 07:48.294 --> 07:49.515 [SPEAKER_01]: Sorry, nothing you wouldn't have shopped around. 07:49.596 --> 07:54.163 [SPEAKER_01]: You wouldn't have accepted a offer without first coming back to me and be like, we have an offer. 07:54.743 --> 07:56.366 [SPEAKER_01]: Which is not in the contract. 07:56.727 --> 07:57.207 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 07:57.227 --> 07:59.190 [SPEAKER_01]: And I had never heard of an editor doing that. 07:59.210 --> 08:03.577 [SPEAKER_01]: And since I have never heard and like, to be clear, like, tell anyone listening, this is not common behavior. 08:03.877 --> 08:08.064 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, most lovely editors will respond and will be, you know, honest about what they want something or not. 08:08.124 --> 08:11.349 [SPEAKER_01]: It is the author's choice, whether they obviously want to take any offer that is made. 08:11.389 --> 08:11.709 [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah. 08:12.511 --> 08:13.392 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just like, 08:14.063 --> 08:18.356 [SPEAKER_01]: It's, it's really frustrating, because communication in this industry is not what it should be. 08:18.457 --> 08:24.917 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's actually one of my, we're not there yet, but it's one of my big things about publishing, like, uh, yeah. 08:25.488 --> 08:31.838 [SPEAKER_02]: So that's my Greg, and it sounds like it has happened for, and I'm sure we'll happen again to somebody else, and yeah, the joys of the show. 08:31.859 --> 08:34.984 [SPEAKER_01]: And look forward to people reaching out to you being like, oh, this deal was announced. 08:35.084 --> 08:35.324 [SPEAKER_01]: What? 08:37.167 --> 08:38.710 [SPEAKER_02]: Excuse me, what's going on? 08:38.730 --> 08:42.256 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, in CC, you had a note here about a non-fiction creator. 08:42.376 --> 08:43.838 [SPEAKER_02]: What did you want to say about this one? 08:43.858 --> 08:46.062 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, again, now this is not going to share details. 08:46.102 --> 08:49.167 [SPEAKER_01]: We're very mindful of confidentiality here, but what I love about our show. 08:49.147 --> 08:52.614 [SPEAKER_01]: is that we still get the talk about specifics without getting into details. 08:52.834 --> 08:58.625 [SPEAKER_01]: So I was having conversations with a really talented nonfiction expert. 08:58.665 --> 09:02.012 [SPEAKER_01]: They do not have a book and I approached them. 09:02.032 --> 09:02.954 [SPEAKER_01]: I want to make that clear. 09:03.014 --> 09:06.801 [SPEAKER_01]: And I said, hey, would you consider writing a book if you ever do but love to chat? 09:07.017 --> 09:25.654 [SPEAKER_01]: And whenever I have these chats, I always come in, you know, if I have a vision and often I do, I'll come in with a vision, but I'll make sure to say that I'm really flexing on my vision and you know, they're the expert, but as a consumer of their content, which I am, I'm like, I would love to read a book by you, and this book could, you know, take on many forms, but this is what I was thinking, like, what do you think? 09:26.174 --> 09:34.662 [SPEAKER_01]: This is a very smart person who has many, many years of research, and so their book would be very meaty, filled with case studies, filled with original research, which is what I love. 09:34.642 --> 09:50.650 [SPEAKER_01]: One of my many gripes about proposals are like hot air proposals like I understand it and this person like oh my gosh, so much content and They were lovely like they were so lovely and they were like yeah, I have all these ideas and I'm really like that Like kind of we had this green great back and forth. 09:50.670 --> 09:53.595 [SPEAKER_01]: We were like brainstorming angles and I could tell that 09:53.575 --> 09:57.080 [SPEAKER_01]: like, I knew they were smart, but I'm like, whoa, you're even smarter than they thought. 09:57.100 --> 09:57.901 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was just awesome. 09:57.942 --> 09:58.723 [SPEAKER_01]: So much chemistry. 09:59.143 --> 10:03.350 [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, I always say, please talk to every agent out there that you might be interested in working with. 10:03.390 --> 10:04.872 [SPEAKER_01]: There is no timeline to get back to me. 10:04.912 --> 10:05.753 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to pressure you. 10:05.793 --> 10:06.614 [SPEAKER_01]: I never want to. 10:06.715 --> 10:08.938 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I always want people to sign with me because you want to sign with me. 10:09.619 --> 10:10.340 [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, let me know. 10:10.680 --> 10:11.982 [SPEAKER_01]: And they got back to me. 10:12.123 --> 10:19.093 [SPEAKER_01]: And I could tell by the start of the email that I was going to be bad news, but I thought they had picked a different agent, which happens, you know, it happens to everyone. 10:19.073 --> 10:23.878 [SPEAKER_01]: Side note when I first started working with Carly and Carly mentioned like losing a pretty contest. 10:23.918 --> 10:47.663 [SPEAKER_01]: I was like Because it still happened to you because in my mind it could never happen to the Carly waters and Carly was like Everyone's see seeing I'm sorry for that side note back to the story So the the email basically said I've decided not to write a book and I would love to hop on a call and tell you But I'm mindful of your time and I don't want to waste your time, but I don't like I want to write a book And I'm like really curious to know why so I was like yeah, I love a call So we had a very quick call and you know this person was like look 10:47.643 --> 10:48.805 [SPEAKER_01]: I ran the economics of it. 10:48.845 --> 11:10.900 [SPEAKER_01]: I talked to all my friends who have book and I offer these products currently and I'm obviously not going to say what the products are because I'm assuming courses and stuff everyone's assuming right like but these are the products they offer about their content yes these products give them x amount of money which is totally fair they are they are in a for-profit business 11:10.880 --> 11:19.431 [SPEAKER_01]: And if I were to write a book, I would have to dedicate X amount of time and also money because they would need a ghostwriter, not because they're not a fabulous writer because they're too busy. 11:19.451 --> 11:26.580 [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, when you work with a ghostwriter, it's really important to remember that there is no such thing as plugging a flash drive into another person's brain. 11:26.680 --> 11:29.183 [SPEAKER_01]: And so you still invest a lot of time. 11:29.223 --> 11:31.386 [SPEAKER_01]: There's not time typing. 11:31.366 --> 11:32.408 [SPEAKER_01]: but it is time. 11:32.448 --> 11:37.498 [SPEAKER_02]: And you have to choose a break goes right or you need to do interviews to find the right fit for the right collaborator. 11:37.518 --> 11:47.839 [SPEAKER_01]: 100% and it takes time and it's set right as of course to money investment and they were like I wouldn't get mine the money like I wouldn't mind like spending money to make money that parts fine what what I think I don't 11:47.819 --> 11:52.886 [SPEAKER_01]: have is the time it would take to write such a thoughtful book because they want to be really thoughtful. 11:52.906 --> 12:04.563 [SPEAKER_01]: And then, and then they were really honest, they were like, like, I talked to my friends, like about how much money they make up their books, and some of these are good book, these books are well, and I can make more money off these other products. 12:05.084 --> 12:11.413 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, look, I'm not trying to convince you, because again, I never want to convince anyone to write a book, because it's so much work that you have to want it. 12:11.393 --> 12:12.854 [SPEAKER_01]: That's the number one condition. 12:12.874 --> 12:14.055 [SPEAKER_01]: You have to desire it. 12:14.095 --> 12:15.357 [SPEAKER_01]: It has to be a big ambition of yours. 12:15.777 --> 12:22.623 [SPEAKER_01]: But I did mention some things I say to people which is, I understand that there are other products that could give you more immediate money now. 12:23.044 --> 12:27.307 [SPEAKER_01]: Just remember, successful books have longevity, successful books can be converted into other things. 12:27.888 --> 12:28.949 [SPEAKER_01]: There's subrides, obviously. 12:28.989 --> 12:31.611 [SPEAKER_01]: There's also things like speaking engagements after you have a book. 12:31.992 --> 12:33.413 [SPEAKER_01]: You can get so much out of that. 12:33.913 --> 12:35.495 [SPEAKER_01]: There is something about the credibility of a book. 12:35.555 --> 12:40.219 [SPEAKER_02]: I have this, I have this field, right? 12:40.199 --> 12:42.623 [SPEAKER_02]: It will get you into stories that you never thought possible. 12:42.663 --> 12:50.837 [SPEAKER_02]: Do you want your name in a target or a bunch of novel or more like that brand recognition that you can then translate and parlay into other industries? 12:50.997 --> 12:54.964 [SPEAKER_02]: You just can't get a product another product into a target or more anyway. 12:54.984 --> 12:56.166 [SPEAKER_02]: I have my whole field anyway too. 12:56.146 --> 12:56.887 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. 12:56.907 --> 12:57.709 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's so true. 12:57.729 --> 13:03.479 [SPEAKER_01]: I think, and again, I love that this person to their research, again, it speaks to their intelligence speaks to their critical thinking. 13:03.780 --> 13:06.044 [SPEAKER_01]: I am in awe of that, and I applaud that. 13:06.525 --> 13:11.674 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm obviously disappointed selfishly, but like, I'm happy that they're doing what's right for their goals, because 13:11.654 --> 13:15.138 [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, everyone is very good on you so much respect. 13:15.518 --> 13:19.562 [SPEAKER_01]: I am sad though, just like as an agent I'm sad, but also as a reader I'm sad. 13:19.683 --> 13:21.044 [SPEAKER_01]: I was going to really love this book. 13:21.444 --> 13:23.246 [SPEAKER_01]: I, in this respect, I'm an optimist. 13:23.327 --> 13:25.329 [SPEAKER_01]: I will keep, keep, keep hope in my heart. 13:25.849 --> 13:30.154 [SPEAKER_01]: The embers of hope glowing, that perhaps they will change their mind some day. 13:30.174 --> 13:31.435 [SPEAKER_01]: Because it is an evergreen book. 13:31.475 --> 13:33.978 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not like a, this book needs to come out now situation. 13:34.018 --> 13:37.502 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and you can always, like somebody can take a course and turn into a book later. 13:37.562 --> 13:41.526 [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe if sales start to kind of take a little downturn, then you just turn that into a book. 13:41.793 --> 13:43.395 [SPEAKER_02]: lots, lots of options there. 13:43.676 --> 13:44.637 [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, that is a bummer. 13:44.758 --> 13:46.200 [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, not on her. 13:46.220 --> 13:47.922 [SPEAKER_01]: She can't physically believe it. 13:48.383 --> 13:49.725 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, let's talk about fun things. 13:50.086 --> 13:50.206 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. 13:50.226 --> 13:52.249 [SPEAKER_01]: Why is your event in New York? 13:52.490 --> 13:53.471 [SPEAKER_01]: Because I'm excited for that. 13:54.012 --> 13:59.140 [SPEAKER_02]: I know it is so the day this comes out, I will be in New York, EJ's one bad mother event. 13:59.340 --> 14:00.522 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, it is tonight. 14:00.622 --> 14:03.066 [SPEAKER_02]: If you're watching this live, we've nearly sold out. 14:03.126 --> 14:03.767 [SPEAKER_02]: I think the 14:03.747 --> 14:10.000 [SPEAKER_02]: think there was space for the venue, which is the second floor of the strand is like 150 and we're almost sold out, which is amazing. 14:10.501 --> 14:16.995 [SPEAKER_02]: So I will be there, my system will be there, obviously the author's friends, Rebecca Tracer, who's doing the in-conversation. 14:17.015 --> 14:21.705 [SPEAKER_02]: So if you're in New York and there's any tickets left, make sure you head to the strand tonight. 14:22.040 --> 14:24.002 [SPEAKER_02]: Um, and yeah, I'm just excited for her. 14:24.022 --> 14:25.624 [SPEAKER_02]: We got so much great buzz for the book. 14:25.684 --> 14:27.326 [SPEAKER_02]: The excerpt in the cut has come out. 14:27.366 --> 14:29.189 [SPEAKER_02]: We still have two more excerpts to come out. 14:29.829 --> 14:31.752 [SPEAKER_02]: And we have our great review in the New Yorker. 14:32.072 --> 14:34.155 [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, all the good things buzzing for that one. 14:34.215 --> 14:36.017 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, that's so exciting. 14:36.037 --> 14:39.661 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, again, I think that by the time this, this airs, it'll be sold out. 14:39.681 --> 14:41.944 [SPEAKER_01]: But hopefully there's still a couple tickets that people can grab. 14:42.284 --> 14:43.105 [SPEAKER_01]: Go grab your tickets. 14:44.046 --> 14:44.447 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 14:44.467 --> 14:44.747 [SPEAKER_02]: All right. 14:44.767 --> 14:47.110 [SPEAKER_02]: So we get into some posts that intrigued us this week. 14:47.170 --> 14:47.991 [SPEAKER_02]: Where do you want to start? 14:48.372 --> 14:49.373 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's do it with the funny one. 14:49.553 --> 14:50.935 [SPEAKER_01]: I want to start with the funny one. 14:50.955 --> 14:51.135 [SPEAKER_01]: OK. Yeah. 14:52.094 --> 14:53.696 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. 14:53.716 --> 14:53.957 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. 14:54.057 --> 15:00.626 [SPEAKER_02]: This one is for this account called Stacey, MQN books, STACY, MCE, WAN books. 15:01.087 --> 15:03.170 [SPEAKER_02]: And it starts off being like, I want to talk about toxic behavior. 15:03.190 --> 15:04.893 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's like, oh my god, I didn't have to hate here. 15:04.993 --> 15:05.113 [SPEAKER_02]: Toxic. 15:05.133 --> 15:05.293 [SPEAKER_02]: Toxic. 15:05.393 --> 15:05.553 [SPEAKER_02]: Toxic. 15:05.874 --> 15:05.994 [SPEAKER_02]: Toxic. 15:06.014 --> 15:06.134 [SPEAKER_02]: Toxic. 15:06.154 --> 15:06.315 [SPEAKER_02]: Toxic. 15:06.335 --> 15:06.495 [SPEAKER_02]: Toxic. 15:06.515 --> 15:06.675 [SPEAKER_02]: Toxic. 15:06.695 --> 15:06.895 [SPEAKER_02]: Toxic. 15:06.915 --> 15:07.136 [SPEAKER_02]: Toxic. 15:07.156 --> 15:07.276 [SPEAKER_02]: Toxic. 15:07.356 --> 15:07.476 [SPEAKER_02]: Toxic. 15:07.496 --> 15:07.636 [SPEAKER_02]: Toxic. 15:07.657 --> 15:07.777 [SPEAKER_02]: Toxic. 15:07.797 --> 15:07.937 [SPEAKER_02]: Toxic. 15:08.057 --> 15:08.177 [SPEAKER_02]: Toxic. 15:08.197 --> 15:08.317 [UNKNOWN]: Toxic. 15:08.337 --> 15:08.458 [UNKNOWN]: Toxic. 15:08.478 --> 15:08.598 [SPEAKER_02]: Toxic. 15:08.618 --> 15:08.738 [SPEAKER_02]: Toxic. 15:08.758 --> 15:08.898 [SPEAKER_02]: Toxic. 15:08.918 --> 15:09.039 [SPEAKER_02]: Toxic. 15:09.059 --> 15:09.179 [SPEAKER_02]: Toxic. 15:09.199 --> 15:09.319 [SPEAKER_02]: Toxic. 15:09.339 --> 15:09.459 [SPEAKER_02]: Toxic. 15:09.479 --> 15:09.619 [SPEAKER_01]: Toxic. 15:09.639 --> 15:09.780 [SPEAKER_01]: Toxic. 15:09.800 --> 15:09.920 [SPEAKER_01]: Toxic. 15:09.940 --> 15:10.060 [SPEAKER_01]: Toxic. 15:10.080 --> 15:10.200 [SPEAKER_01]: Toxic. 15:10.220 --> 15:10.360 [SPEAKER_01]: Toxic. 15:10.380 --> 15:10.501 [SPEAKER_02]: Toxic. 15:10.521 --> 15:10.641 [SPEAKER_02]: Toxic. 15:10.661 --> 15:10.781 [SPEAKER_02]: Toxic. 15:10.801 --> 15:10.941 [SPEAKER_02]: Toxic. 15:10.961 --> 15:11.101 [SPEAKER_02]: Toxic. 15:11.122 --> 15:11.242 [SPEAKER_01]: Toxic. 15:11.262 --> 15:11.382 [SPEAKER_01]: Toxic. 15:11.402 --> 15:11.522 [SPEAKER_01]: Toxic. 15:11.542 --> 15:11.702 [SPEAKER_01]: Toxic. 15:11.722 --> 15:11.883 [SPEAKER_01]: Toxic. 15:11.903 --> 15:12.023 [SPEAKER_01]: Toxic. 15:12.043 --> 15:12.203 [SPEAKER_01]: Toxic. 15:12.223 --> 15:12.343 [SPEAKER_02]: Toxic. 15:12.363 --> 15:12.483 [SPEAKER_02]: Toxic. 15:12.504 --> 15:12.624 [SPEAKER_01]: Toxic. 15:12.644 --> 15:12.764 [SPEAKER_01]: Toxic. 15:12.784 --> 15:12.904 [SPEAKER_01]: Toxic. 15:12.924 --> 15:13.064 [SPEAKER_01]: Toxic. 15:13.084 --> 15:13.205 [SPEAKER_01]: Toxic. 15:13.225 --> 15:13.345 [SPEAKER_01]: Toxic. 15:13.365 --> 15:13.485 [SPEAKER_02]: Toxic. 15:13.505 --> 15:13.545 [SPEAKER_02]: To 15:13.711 --> 15:16.655 [SPEAKER_02]: So we, some random way you're like, oh my gosh, talk to behavior. 15:16.675 --> 15:17.276 [SPEAKER_02]: I need to stop. 15:17.356 --> 15:22.684 [SPEAKER_02]: And then it's just like hilarious things like, what if I want to change my character's name halfway through. 15:22.744 --> 15:28.812 [SPEAKER_02]: So, yes, there are three chapters, 17's and it's just a really, really funny vibe. 15:28.832 --> 15:30.935 [SPEAKER_01]: We will also create a license. 15:30.955 --> 15:32.057 [SPEAKER_01]: My favorite was. 15:32.037 --> 15:33.722 [SPEAKER_01]: This metaphor doesn't quite make sense. 15:33.742 --> 15:41.183 [SPEAKER_01]: We'll excuse a girl for catching a vibe, and it's just, okay, I want to thank given everything that's happening in our world. 15:41.484 --> 15:43.570 [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't have to specify what's happening in the world. 15:43.590 --> 15:44.011 [SPEAKER_01]: People now. 15:44.051 --> 15:46.418 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you to funny people. 15:46.617 --> 15:48.200 [SPEAKER_01]: You guys make the world so much better. 15:48.261 --> 15:49.624 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for funny people. 15:49.664 --> 15:50.686 [SPEAKER_01]: You are making me laugh. 15:50.746 --> 15:55.717 [SPEAKER_01]: You're giving me like all the good hormones in the middle of the dumpster fire pirate ship world we live in. 15:55.737 --> 15:56.118 [SPEAKER_01]: I love you. 15:56.238 --> 15:56.559 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you. 15:56.839 --> 15:57.741 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that was great. 15:57.781 --> 15:58.443 [SPEAKER_02]: So check that one out. 15:58.463 --> 15:59.425 [SPEAKER_02]: It's gone viral a bit. 15:59.445 --> 16:00.828 [SPEAKER_02]: So might have popped up on your feed. 16:00.968 --> 16:02.933 [SPEAKER_02]: But excuse a girl for catching a vibe. 16:02.993 --> 16:05.178 [SPEAKER_02]: Be sure to definitely be a catchphrase. 16:05.819 --> 16:06.280 [SPEAKER_02]: Love that. 16:06.260 --> 16:10.265 [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe it is catchphrase and I'm just too old to know whether it's a catchphrase, so I really enjoyed that. 16:10.625 --> 16:15.111 [SPEAKER_02]: The next thing we had on the list was there's a couple different Instagram posts that caught our eye. 16:15.151 --> 16:17.553 [SPEAKER_02]: The first one I wanted to highlight. 16:17.914 --> 16:19.596 [SPEAKER_02]: And it refers back to a sub-stack to be honest. 16:19.636 --> 16:21.118 [SPEAKER_02]: I haven't clicked through to the sub-stack yet. 16:21.198 --> 16:23.140 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if you did see see, but we can refer back to it. 16:23.180 --> 16:31.390 [SPEAKER_02]: But Laura McAllen is the Instagram handle at Laura Underscore McAllen, MCK-O-W-E-N. 16:31.370 --> 16:38.361 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's called, how much I made up my first book, and you know, I love a transparent post. 16:38.421 --> 16:41.886 [SPEAKER_02]: I think, you know, as agents, we can't be like, here's what happens with our clients. 16:42.227 --> 16:44.170 [SPEAKER_02]: And Lauren, it's Laura, isn't a client. 16:44.230 --> 16:50.600 [SPEAKER_02]: I obviously want to be clear, but it's so nice when we could just shout out people who are doing the Lord's work as they say to share things. 16:50.700 --> 16:55.167 [SPEAKER_02]: And so this is a subject post that you can go to, Laura McCown.substack.com. 16:55.147 --> 16:56.488 [SPEAKER_02]: how much I made on my first book. 16:56.548 --> 17:02.654 [SPEAKER_02]: So she starts with some staff, the average book in America sells 200 copies per year and a thousand copies over its lifetime. 17:02.714 --> 17:09.741 [SPEAKER_02]: She has some quotes about you know, a traditionally published book, you know, anywhere from 3 to 5,000 copies over its entire lifetime. 17:09.841 --> 17:22.032 [SPEAKER_02]: It's common, 10,000 copies is considered solid, it's less successful, 25,000 copies are very strong, 100,000 copies is rare, usually requires, you know, platforms and book clubs and 17:22.012 --> 17:23.575 [SPEAKER_02]: And so next talks about the money. 17:23.796 --> 17:32.453 [SPEAKER_02]: So she said I received $20,000 advance for her book, which is called We Are The Luckiest, the surprising magic of a sober life shadow to her book. 17:32.995 --> 17:34.658 [SPEAKER_02]: And next talks about the money going out, right? 17:34.698 --> 17:37.183 [SPEAKER_02]: So the agent got 15% off the top of every check. 17:37.464 --> 17:41.472 [SPEAKER_02]: She also hired a freelance editor at $7,500. 17:41.452 --> 17:53.167 [SPEAKER_02]: in a freelance publicist at 15,000, so she says I did not have to do those things, but I wanted to, because I was anxious as hell, and it was my first book, and she also paid 80% of a six city book tour. 17:53.868 --> 18:03.780 [SPEAKER_02]: And then in September 2022, it crossed over the hundred thousand copies sold, and it's now over 150,000 units of print ebook and audio. 18:04.030 --> 18:05.092 [SPEAKER_02]: which is amazing. 18:05.212 --> 18:10.103 [SPEAKER_02]: So if you want to read more, she just throws to her sub stack, which is at Laura McCow and that.sub.com. 18:10.323 --> 18:14.612 [SPEAKER_02]: So if you wanted to do a deep dive into that, but yeah, I just love that, because it highlights a number of things, right? 18:15.093 --> 18:22.208 [SPEAKER_02]: Potentially, you know, what, the average number of copies are sold, the average, you know, or an example of an advance, also talks about from, 18:22.188 --> 18:33.277 [SPEAKER_02]: very commonly, which we've also just talked about when Sue seems talking about the content creator, a lot of people have to hire somebody, whether it's a freelance editor or a publicist in the different ways that authors spend their money. 18:33.678 --> 18:36.585 [SPEAKER_02]: And as you can see, this adds up to more than the advance. 18:37.021 --> 18:41.307 [SPEAKER_02]: So she was an out-of-pocket at this point to invest in all of these things. 18:41.448 --> 18:50.120 [SPEAKER_02]: And we know that with folks, there's usually a third of the advance on signing, a third on delivering acceptance of the manuscript, and then a third on publication of the book. 18:50.160 --> 18:53.826 [SPEAKER_02]: And she would have had to pay out a bunch of these things before that amount of money comes in. 18:53.886 --> 18:58.893 [SPEAKER_02]: So then you have to have this amount of money to set aside for your book in order to recover all of this. 18:58.953 --> 19:02.218 [SPEAKER_02]: And none of this, of course, is requirements, but she's also trying to show, hey, 19:02.198 --> 19:17.826 [SPEAKER_02]: This helped me sell a lot of copies, and this is a common formula that authors use, which is some of them, especially if it's like a business book or non-fiction book, they're in the whole little bit to do all the promo, and then they're kind of able to accelerate those copies, but obviously want to be clear that we can never assume those things. 19:18.267 --> 19:19.870 [SPEAKER_02]: I enjoyed that post. 19:20.795 --> 19:22.160 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm really enjoyed it too. 19:22.642 --> 19:28.444 [SPEAKER_01]: Love it when, like, to be clear, this is not expected of anyone, please no one feel pressured, but I do love a good money post. 19:28.465 --> 19:32.239 [SPEAKER_01]: Because it is something that has agents to Carly's point, we can't share ourselves. 19:32.523 --> 19:33.685 [SPEAKER_01]: A few things stood out to me. 19:33.785 --> 19:38.713 [SPEAKER_01]: First is, she mentions that her book so it's like 150,000 copies, which is like so great. 19:39.394 --> 19:47.807 [SPEAKER_01]: And yet, if you look up her numbers on book scan, it's a tiny fraction of this, which is so like, it just makes me like, ugh, book scan, you know? 19:48.148 --> 19:52.815 [SPEAKER_01]: Like the fact that people attach such importance to book scan, like, don't get me wrong. 19:52.855 --> 19:55.720 [SPEAKER_01]: I love the platform itself, because it gives me some sense of, you know, sales. 19:55.780 --> 19:57.683 [SPEAKER_01]: It's really actually kind of a difting to look up books there. 19:58.304 --> 20:00.167 [SPEAKER_01]: But the idea that, 20:00.147 --> 20:07.061 [SPEAKER_01]: It's so different, looking at her book scan number versus her actual sales numbers and we know the book scan doesn't capture everything, but come on. 20:08.063 --> 20:11.670 [SPEAKER_01]: It did not capture even close to 85% of her sales, so that was really interesting to me. 20:12.051 --> 20:19.305 [SPEAKER_01]: And then the other thing that I will say, and it is, it is an angle about this post. 20:19.425 --> 20:20.788 [SPEAKER_01]: So, 20:20.768 --> 20:30.279 [SPEAKER_01]: She was inspired to do this post, which again, Kale and I are thankful for, because when her paperback came out, she started promoting this book again, because that's what authors are supposed to do. 20:30.920 --> 20:44.616 [SPEAKER_01]: And she got a little bit of pushback from quite a few people, saying things like, I don't understand why you're promoting your paperback, you're already best selling off of where you're doing this, or someone else saying, so you'll be able to buy your book again, because I already bought the hard cover. 20:44.596 --> 20:47.822 [SPEAKER_01]: And just keep all like complaining that authors are promoting their work. 20:47.922 --> 20:49.004 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, I want to say something. 20:49.264 --> 20:50.607 [SPEAKER_01]: And to be clear, I speak only for myself. 20:50.647 --> 20:51.569 [SPEAKER_01]: I do not speak for Carly. 20:52.671 --> 20:58.782 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't believe in putting out anything negative in the world, not because I'm a good person, but because I believe that things come back. 20:59.303 --> 21:01.727 [SPEAKER_01]: And I believe that you put out good even when you're feeling angry. 21:01.707 --> 21:04.971 [SPEAKER_01]: So when I'm feeling really, really angry, and sometimes I'm really, really angry. 21:05.311 --> 21:07.915 [SPEAKER_01]: I remind myself, like, feel the anger, ride the wave. 21:08.275 --> 21:11.138 [SPEAKER_01]: But when it comes to thoughts, be intentional and put out love. 21:11.539 --> 21:14.843 [SPEAKER_01]: Because then love will come back and love will reach the person who is making you angry. 21:14.863 --> 21:16.265 [SPEAKER_01]: They need love, everybody needs love. 21:16.585 --> 21:17.606 [SPEAKER_01]: I am making an exception. 21:17.927 --> 21:26.517 [SPEAKER_01]: People who complain with authors, people who go to authors and send them DMs and make comments and say things like, where are you promoting your book? 21:26.497 --> 21:28.321 [SPEAKER_01]: I am making an exception for you. 21:28.982 --> 21:31.126 [SPEAKER_01]: I wish that you live in a world with no chocolate. 21:31.627 --> 21:32.148 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay? 21:32.169 --> 21:33.130 [SPEAKER_01]: That is my wish for you. 21:33.171 --> 21:34.814 [SPEAKER_01]: That is very mean, spirited wish. 21:34.854 --> 21:35.836 [SPEAKER_01]: I stand by it. 21:36.417 --> 21:39.984 [SPEAKER_01]: I hope there is no chocolate left in your world because that is such a mean thing to say. 21:40.325 --> 21:40.946 [SPEAKER_01]: Apologize. 21:41.247 --> 21:42.750 [SPEAKER_01]: Apologize and stop doing that. 21:42.730 --> 21:48.115 [SPEAKER_01]: because it's not, okay, authors should promote their work online, they absolutely get to. 21:48.336 --> 21:53.901 [SPEAKER_01]: The fact that it's rubbing you the wrong way says so much about whatever message you've internalized from like weird things. 21:53.961 --> 21:57.985 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, women can't promote their own work or creative work isn't about profit. 21:58.025 --> 22:01.929 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what you've internalized, but I would go to therapy and I would think about it long and hard. 22:02.690 --> 22:05.093 [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, I do wish a work with no chocolate for you. 22:05.613 --> 22:06.013 [SPEAKER_01]: I just do. 22:06.874 --> 22:11.539 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, that now we are now going to promote our sponsors, so we will take a 22:14.489 --> 22:16.293 [SPEAKER_02]: All right, everybody, thanks for coming back. 22:16.333 --> 22:26.594 [SPEAKER_02]: One of the things has been on my mind actually all weeks since we talked about it last, which is we kind of started a conversation about how much information there is on the internet. 22:26.614 --> 22:26.895 [SPEAKER_02]: And 22:27.652 --> 22:29.294 [SPEAKER_02]: There is so much information on the internet. 22:29.314 --> 22:31.155 [SPEAKER_02]: And so I don't know why I was thinking about my answer. 22:31.175 --> 22:32.377 [SPEAKER_02]: I was like, was I happy with my answer? 22:32.437 --> 22:34.739 [SPEAKER_02]: Because I do think about actor record the show. 22:34.779 --> 22:35.760 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, don't listen to everybody. 22:35.920 --> 22:38.082 [SPEAKER_02]: And get something from our conversation. 22:38.362 --> 22:43.848 [SPEAKER_02]: Because when I started in publishing, they're just the internet wasn't a place of resource like that. 22:44.208 --> 22:46.170 [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe there were some organizations, for example. 22:46.911 --> 22:49.293 [SPEAKER_02]: So this is back, and I started publishing in 2009. 22:50.054 --> 22:54.418 [SPEAKER_02]: So there were resources like SCVWI, which is the children's society of a publisher's 22:54.398 --> 23:00.466 [SPEAKER_02]: So if there was an organization, there would often be resources, but they were also usually buying to pay well. 23:01.147 --> 23:05.633 [SPEAKER_02]: You could buy the copy of writers and artists, the writers' digest guides. 23:05.853 --> 23:14.685 [SPEAKER_02]: So there were select resources, but that's one of the ways as an agent, which I've talked to before, that I was able to kind of 23:14.817 --> 23:38.496 [SPEAKER_02]: create my own agent brand and communicate to writers which is showing them all of the different ways that the way the business works and kind of break it down for them and I started blogging and social media and so forth which is how I started to build that following and anyway, I just think about how far we've come and that amount of time which now there's so much information out there. 23:38.476 --> 23:47.670 [SPEAKER_02]: tons of rifters, tons of completely legitimate resources as well, and how overwhelming that would be for a writer now to think. 23:48.191 --> 23:51.676 [SPEAKER_02]: It's not about locating the right place to find the conversation. 23:51.936 --> 23:59.127 [SPEAKER_02]: It's also about parsing through what conversations are worth having, and I also imagine it being such a time-suck for you guys. 23:59.207 --> 24:04.675 [SPEAKER_02]: Of like, you must go down these reddit rabbit holes of like, you know, where do we go to get this information? 24:04.775 --> 24:05.817 [SPEAKER_02]: So I was thinking, 24:06.083 --> 24:09.706 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, if you CC, we're trying to learn the business in 2026. 24:10.407 --> 24:15.031 [SPEAKER_02]: What would you do to, or could it also be like when you're learning anything? 24:15.091 --> 24:19.034 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, in the year 2026, like, where would you go to do a deep dive on a topic? 24:20.255 --> 24:22.637 [SPEAKER_01]: Am I learning the business as a writer or as an agent? 24:22.657 --> 24:23.939 [SPEAKER_01]: Because the answers are totally different. 24:24.339 --> 24:26.261 [SPEAKER_02]: I would say writer, because I'm thinking about our listeners. 24:28.442 --> 24:28.543 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. 24:28.563 --> 24:29.964 [SPEAKER_01]: Then I want to first caveat something. 24:30.024 --> 24:32.126 [SPEAKER_01]: And again, it's a hot take perhaps. 24:32.146 --> 24:34.808 [SPEAKER_01]: Actually, I don't think it's a hot take at all, but maybe it is. 24:35.750 --> 24:43.739 [SPEAKER_01]: I actually think that, again, it's my perspective as an agent, learning about the business of publishing is really important for all writers. 24:44.020 --> 24:47.734 [SPEAKER_01]: If you want to make it in an industry, you need to know about the business, duh, 100%. 24:48.693 --> 24:49.975 [SPEAKER_01]: first work on your talent. 24:50.376 --> 24:55.606 [SPEAKER_01]: I actually think it's putting the cart before the horse to learn about the business first. 24:55.646 --> 25:08.409 [SPEAKER_01]: Like I see the slush pile, we all see the slush pile, we all have different slush pile obviously, but like every agent I talk to says the same thing, which is the overwhelming number of books in the slush pile are not where they need to be in terms of the skill, right? 25:08.649 --> 25:10.633 [SPEAKER_01]: Talent for writing in line level, 25:10.613 --> 25:16.145 [SPEAKER_01]: I genuinely think that the first thing I would do as a writer is make sure my talent is where it needs to be. 25:16.245 --> 25:17.067 [SPEAKER_01]: That takes years. 25:17.227 --> 25:18.671 [SPEAKER_01]: That is something that's really important. 25:18.691 --> 25:24.784 [SPEAKER_01]: Once I'm confident in that, and yes, it can be done in parallel to a degree, but I see people really stressing themselves out. 25:24.824 --> 25:27.610 [SPEAKER_01]: They go, I don't know enough about how to promote my work on social media. 25:27.877 --> 25:32.826 [SPEAKER_01]: your work is not going to be promoted on social media, because you're never going to get traditionally published, because your talent is nowhere, where it needs to be. 25:32.866 --> 25:33.948 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry, it's mean, but it's true. 25:34.329 --> 25:36.593 [SPEAKER_01]: And first go do that, your talent can get there. 25:36.653 --> 25:38.497 [SPEAKER_01]: You can do it, but first you've got to work on that. 25:38.557 --> 25:40.220 [SPEAKER_01]: So that would be my first comment. 25:40.240 --> 25:44.768 [SPEAKER_01]: Like first, I would work on writing, writing, writing, writing storytelling, storytelling, storytelling. 25:44.788 --> 25:46.311 [SPEAKER_01]: Once I was like, yes, I'm good. 25:46.652 --> 25:48.535 [SPEAKER_01]: I actually think that, 25:48.515 --> 25:52.099 [SPEAKER_01]: I learned best, my brain in a structured environment. 25:52.539 --> 25:57.684 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't go down reddit rabbit holes because I'm so protective of my attention span. 25:58.285 --> 26:01.788 [SPEAKER_01]: I would, of course, listen to, you know, the shit no one does about writing. 26:01.808 --> 26:05.792 [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like that's biased on my part, but I do think we actually offer good content. 26:06.133 --> 26:11.978 [SPEAKER_01]: But I would look for one initial structured course or program. 26:12.018 --> 26:15.602 [SPEAKER_01]: Like I'll give you an example, my colleague, Sharice Fisher, 26:15.582 --> 26:22.894 [SPEAKER_01]: She teaches in production to publishing, I believe it's called, at City College, and again, I know my brain. 26:23.134 --> 26:24.576 [SPEAKER_01]: I know how I like to learn. 26:24.597 --> 26:30.486 [SPEAKER_01]: I like to learn with structure first, and then I can go down, rabbit holes, but not in a bad way. 26:30.666 --> 26:33.130 [SPEAKER_01]: Then I can kind of like fill in the gaps. 26:33.270 --> 26:37.978 [SPEAKER_01]: But I would like to begin with a course that would teach me things like, what are the roles in publishing? 26:37.958 --> 26:41.943 [SPEAKER_01]: difference between acquiring editor, there's been literary agent and scouts. 26:42.484 --> 26:43.205 [SPEAKER_01]: What about policies? 26:43.265 --> 26:43.806 [SPEAKER_01]: What do they do? 26:43.826 --> 26:49.233 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I remember being in publishing school and literally learning things like the difference between publicity and marketing. 26:49.554 --> 26:54.140 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's obvious that there would be a difference, but I wouldn't know how to say it before I was in school. 26:54.581 --> 26:56.203 [SPEAKER_01]: I remember learning this one. 26:56.183 --> 26:57.365 [SPEAKER_01]: Was it mind blowing to me? 26:58.045 --> 26:58.386 [SPEAKER_01]: YA? 26:58.426 --> 27:00.909 [SPEAKER_01]: Because I remember as a reader, I didn't read YA. 27:00.929 --> 27:04.734 [SPEAKER_01]: And I remember thinking young adult, so it must be like people in the early 20s. 27:05.175 --> 27:06.256 [SPEAKER_01]: That is what a younger adult is. 27:06.657 --> 27:08.960 [SPEAKER_01]: No, YA means teenagers, you know? 27:09.200 --> 27:10.702 [SPEAKER_01]: Like I would learn jargon, lingo. 27:10.722 --> 27:12.484 [SPEAKER_01]: Like I would pick up on all these things. 27:12.664 --> 27:15.668 [SPEAKER_01]: And learn what are the resources that the professionals use. 27:15.688 --> 27:17.651 [SPEAKER_01]: So for example, people rely on book scan. 27:17.911 --> 27:19.373 [SPEAKER_01]: Great, deep dive on book scan. 27:19.353 --> 27:41.007 [SPEAKER_01]: people rely on publishers marketplace great deep dive on publishers marketplace like what are the trades people love publishers weekly like what are the resources that the actual people doing the job use and I would make sure that whenever whatever I take a course or listen to a podcast and again this is what my brain likes I would be learning from people who are doing the job which ties back to what we talked about last week like 27:41.408 --> 27:44.572 [SPEAKER_01]: I learn best from people who are actually in the trenches doing the work. 27:45.153 --> 27:49.339 [SPEAKER_01]: And I would try to take an in-person course even though I'm a homebody and I never want to leave the house. 27:49.759 --> 27:55.447 [SPEAKER_01]: But I would try to leave the house and like kind of force myself out of my comfort zone because publishing is a business of relationships. 27:55.467 --> 28:02.036 [SPEAKER_01]: It's one of the reasons why I'm not worried about AI replacing us as agents and editors and all that because it is a business of human connection. 28:02.076 --> 28:02.877 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, 28:02.857 --> 28:06.801 [SPEAKER_01]: Meeting people, you know, being able to like actually meet people is so important. 28:06.821 --> 28:08.503 [SPEAKER_01]: And it can be in a virtual setting as well. 28:09.164 --> 28:13.489 [SPEAKER_01]: But I do think that I would probably try to start with an in person setting and then move to a virtual setting. 28:13.789 --> 28:16.472 [SPEAKER_01]: I would also network a lot on social media. 28:16.832 --> 28:21.157 [SPEAKER_01]: Like I would have like a bookstagram or account or something, you know, because I would read books all the time anyway. 28:21.518 --> 28:24.621 [SPEAKER_01]: I would post about books and I would try not worrying about follow account. 28:25.121 --> 28:28.345 [SPEAKER_01]: But like just reaching out to people and being like, hey, you know, like I love this book. 28:28.365 --> 28:29.286 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you love this book too? 28:29.386 --> 28:30.147 [SPEAKER_01]: And 28:30.127 --> 28:33.875 [SPEAKER_01]: and connecting with people because so much of what we learn is the whisper network. 28:34.396 --> 28:35.718 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, whisper networks are important. 28:36.239 --> 28:38.965 [SPEAKER_01]: Above all, and I see this all the time, but truly, I practice what I've reached. 28:39.386 --> 28:42.332 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, there's an overwhelming amount of content on the internet, 100%. 28:42.472 --> 28:49.266 [SPEAKER_01]: But I actually think that this is where people with critical thinking can rise and stand out and set themselves apart. 28:49.246 --> 29:02.324 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you're not going to get discouraged by the overwhelming amount of content, you're going to be, you're going to make a plan and you're going to stick to that plan and be really intentional about what content you're consuming and never 100% trusting anything anyone is saying. 29:02.384 --> 29:03.625 [SPEAKER_01]: Not even the world's biggest expert. 29:04.066 --> 29:10.355 [SPEAKER_01]: Someone saying something I remember being in publishing school and my professor, very accomplished, was saying the average word count of books. 29:10.435 --> 29:12.958 [SPEAKER_01]: And I remember being like, doesn't sound right to me. 29:13.242 --> 29:15.169 [SPEAKER_01]: So I looked it up and she was not right. 29:15.269 --> 29:16.754 [SPEAKER_01]: I might told her and I was like, look, I'm sorry. 29:17.236 --> 29:19.885 [SPEAKER_01]: Could you help me understand what you mean by the average report count? 29:20.226 --> 29:23.979 [SPEAKER_01]: I guess this is what I'm saying, like use your own brain to let fat check what people are saying. 29:24.120 --> 29:25.665 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I think it's important to do that. 29:25.696 --> 29:26.637 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that was my rant. 29:26.657 --> 29:27.318 [SPEAKER_01]: I want to rant. 29:27.378 --> 29:27.758 [SPEAKER_01]: How about you? 29:27.778 --> 29:28.459 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you did? 29:28.499 --> 29:29.800 [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, you answered everything. 29:29.960 --> 29:31.962 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I don't mean to I don't need to rant now. 29:31.982 --> 29:36.967 [SPEAKER_02]: I think I think you kind of touched on this, but just do a little bit further on that, which is conferences, right? 29:36.987 --> 29:43.314 [SPEAKER_02]: There are so many writers' conferences out there, but how do you know which ones are the good ones is a huge question mark, right? 29:43.334 --> 29:50.421 [SPEAKER_02]: So that's where that whispered network is going to come into play, just because a conference is local doesn't mean it's the best conference. 29:50.401 --> 29:52.926 [SPEAKER_02]: And I will say something controversial now. 29:53.086 --> 30:00.421 [SPEAKER_02]: I'll go on my rant, which is, if you want something to be a career, you have to invest some form of capital in it. 30:00.581 --> 30:00.782 [SPEAKER_02]: Right. 30:00.842 --> 30:07.395 [SPEAKER_02]: Whether it's your human capital, your labor, your financial capital, there has to be an investment made because there's a lot of people. 30:07.435 --> 30:08.317 [SPEAKER_02]: See, see, I have met them. 30:08.777 --> 30:10.080 [SPEAKER_02]: I conference is. 30:10.060 --> 30:21.913 [SPEAKER_02]: online where it's such a hobby and it will always be a hobby because people are not making that leap to treat it as a potential career so they're not financially investing in it. 30:22.314 --> 30:34.988 [SPEAKER_02]: They're not figuring out ways to make it a part of their life and take a step to transition from what they were doing before to the career that they want to have and there's huge cognitive shift there that has to happen. 30:34.968 --> 30:36.130 [SPEAKER_02]: super important. 30:36.351 --> 30:44.185 [SPEAKER_02]: And so while I am very empathetic to people who, you know, you know, are working multiple jobs as it is holding down the forward at home, have kids. 30:44.225 --> 30:48.352 [SPEAKER_02]: There's no time, very, and it could just be right now is not your season of life. 30:48.493 --> 30:52.099 [SPEAKER_02]: And for to make this transition to this career, I'm not saying money grows on trees. 30:52.366 --> 31:05.734 [SPEAKER_02]: But I do firmly believe it's like, you know, when we went to university college, you know, when we were 21 to figure out we want to do with our lives, there is an investment there with our time with our money with our attention span and that's that mental shift that has to happen. 31:06.862 --> 31:11.370 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, I posted about this on Instagram, not that long ago, is writing a hobby or a career for you. 31:11.390 --> 31:16.057 [SPEAKER_01]: I asked that question and so many people were like, oh, it's a hobby for now because I don't make money yet. 31:16.137 --> 31:21.667 [SPEAKER_01]: But, and I'm like, no, before I ever made a scent as a lawyer, it was a career for me. 31:21.707 --> 31:27.857 [SPEAKER_01]: Back when I was still spending money to one day, hopefully graduate, hopefully pass the bar. 31:27.837 --> 31:41.458 [SPEAKER_01]: hopefully get to practice law and of course it's different because as long as you're a reasonably intelligent person who studies, you probably will, you know, make money as a lawyer whereas with writing, you might never make money, but that's also your decision to go into a risky career. 31:41.898 --> 31:46.065 [SPEAKER_01]: No one has to write a book except for my clients, clients if you're listening, you do have to write a book. 31:46.085 --> 31:47.427 [SPEAKER_01]: But no one has to do this career. 31:47.447 --> 31:53.035 [SPEAKER_01]: Like I, I am thankful people choose it every day, but please remember it's a choice because it is. 31:53.791 --> 31:55.333 [SPEAKER_02]: All right, and, and rant. 31:55.593 --> 31:56.454 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so next. 31:57.555 --> 32:05.323 [SPEAKER_02]: All right, now I want to tell you guys about what's in the substack tomorrow, which will be followed by a really great Instagram post that CCC and I both loved. 32:05.423 --> 32:07.866 [SPEAKER_02]: So, substack tomorrow, what you guys will be getting. 32:08.046 --> 32:18.938 [SPEAKER_02]: So, serity, dub, author of Honey Bee Mine, Pens and Excellent Essay, titled, Know Your Writes, sending boundaries with beta readers to keep your writing joy intact. 32:19.120 --> 32:28.056 [SPEAKER_02]: She says, in my writing life, finding trusted writing partners has been vital having critique partners and beta readers gives me a way out of my own head and let someone else play with my characters and stories. 32:28.497 --> 32:31.582 [SPEAKER_02]: It brings new and interesting perspectives, pushes me in new directions. 32:31.643 --> 32:39.677 [SPEAKER_02]: I've been lucky to work with incredible readers and writers who have helped me in my practice of writing, as well in the hard-of-thought internal work of what it means to be a writer. 32:39.657 --> 32:50.009 [SPEAKER_02]: But giving and receiving feedback isn't always easy or natural, giving feedback is a skill to be cultivated in practice, just like writing, and feeling to do so harms writers who are bravely sharing their work. 32:50.049 --> 32:52.637 [SPEAKER_02]: So that's a great essay you guys can get in the tomorrow sub-stack. 32:53.461 --> 32:54.062 [SPEAKER_01]: I love that. 32:54.102 --> 32:57.745 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm also excited for Ashley Bennett's essay. 32:57.785 --> 33:05.372 [SPEAKER_01]: She's the author of Muscles and Monsters and essentially her essays all about like she self-published a monster romance. 33:05.532 --> 33:06.893 [SPEAKER_01]: You guys, please picture this. 33:06.953 --> 33:09.896 [SPEAKER_01]: Please picture yourself self-publishing a monster romance. 33:09.916 --> 33:10.917 [SPEAKER_01]: And then guess what happened? 33:11.137 --> 33:11.757 [SPEAKER_01]: Guess what happened? 33:12.138 --> 33:15.901 [SPEAKER_01]: She landed a deal with her dream big five publisher. 33:15.961 --> 33:23.468 [SPEAKER_01]: Not just a big five publisher, but her dream. 33:23.448 --> 33:33.003 [SPEAKER_02]: Alright, then we also have Eleanor Shure, author of Fireflies and Winter, a thoughtful essay called Journey to the past four steps for bringing history to life in fiction. 33:33.543 --> 33:43.999 [SPEAKER_02]: And finally, we have Josie Lloyd and Emily and Reeze, author of You and Me and You and Me and Me and Me, spill the beans in today's author video about collaborating, writing with your spouse. 33:44.720 --> 33:49.067 [SPEAKER_02]: I can't even imagine what that would be like, so I'm excited about that one. 33:49.992 --> 33:50.713 [SPEAKER_01]: Loves that on. 33:50.733 --> 33:51.234 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god. 33:51.535 --> 33:52.597 [SPEAKER_01]: That sounds exciting. 33:52.617 --> 33:53.859 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, should we talk about that post? 33:53.959 --> 33:59.348 [SPEAKER_02]: We like Yeah, so I mean you found this one before I did, but that was like we have to talk about this one. 33:59.709 --> 34:06.842 [SPEAKER_01]: We actually both found it independently and wrote like you told me, but like my point is we both liked it before we even talked about it. 34:06.862 --> 34:07.683 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 34:07.843 --> 34:08.304 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 34:08.324 --> 34:10.448 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, why don't you summarize this one for a CC? 34:10.428 --> 34:13.211 [SPEAKER_01]: So Yadon is a high-prenesis name, Yadon. 34:13.772 --> 34:14.553 [SPEAKER_01]: I would say it's Yadon. 34:15.714 --> 34:16.836 [SPEAKER_01]: So Yadon is real. 34:16.896 --> 34:18.878 [SPEAKER_01]: He's an editor at Simon and she's there. 34:18.998 --> 34:21.161 [SPEAKER_01]: He has a great Instagram account. 34:21.201 --> 34:22.282 [SPEAKER_01]: He loves his account. 34:22.302 --> 34:25.986 [SPEAKER_01]: He should follow him, Y-A-H-D-O-N. That is his handle. 34:26.087 --> 34:27.869 [SPEAKER_01]: He's a little blue checkmark, so it's easy to spot. 34:28.089 --> 34:34.917 [SPEAKER_01]: He's essentially, it's a post about how you should think about the agent author relationship. 34:34.897 --> 34:43.066 [SPEAKER_01]: And so he's saying, you know, writers are approaching agents only thinking about how to get a deal, but it's really helpful for you to essentially think about what that means for the agent. 34:43.767 --> 34:49.433 [SPEAKER_01]: And he talks about how agents are working in his words for free until they sell a book. 34:50.414 --> 35:04.549 [SPEAKER_01]: And he makes it clear that on many places there's no salary, no retainer, no guarantee, and that they only get paid if the author gets paid, which means that an agent is essentially making 35:05.828 --> 35:09.054 [SPEAKER_01]: And he then breaks down a couple of examples. 35:09.094 --> 35:12.220 [SPEAKER_01]: Like for example, if your debut makes X, this is what your agent will get. 35:12.280 --> 35:16.969 [SPEAKER_01]: And I thought that was really, it was really interesting to see an editor, mentioned that from an agent perspective. 35:17.630 --> 35:21.878 [SPEAKER_01]: I once remember an editor telling me, I love it when agents understand what we're up against. 35:21.938 --> 35:22.539 [SPEAKER_01]: We editors. 35:22.940 --> 35:28.410 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that the flip side of that is, hey, I really think it's cool when editors understand what agents are up against. 35:28.660 --> 35:43.560 [SPEAKER_01]: I will offer a few opinions on a few things he said and this is not because I disagree with the overall message because I don't, I agree with everything he's saying, but there are a couple things that he says that I'm like, hmm, and I'll actually know what, Lord did the same thing. 35:43.820 --> 35:48.666 [SPEAKER_01]: So he wrote agents typically earn 15% commission on what they sell. 35:49.407 --> 35:53.773 [SPEAKER_01]: So if your debut sells for $20,000, the agent makes $3,000. 35:53.753 --> 36:00.044 [SPEAKER_01]: I just want to remind everyone, and this is not, again, not a peppy, the agency makes 15% agency. 36:00.425 --> 36:02.528 [SPEAKER_01]: What the individual agent makes is different. 36:02.548 --> 36:03.891 [SPEAKER_01]: People are always forgetting this. 36:03.951 --> 36:09.360 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I have friends who work in publicite, like editors, and we're going out to lunch and they're like, oh, so you sold that book for X. 36:09.380 --> 36:11.965 [SPEAKER_01]: That means you made Y, and I'm like, no. 36:11.945 --> 36:13.407 [SPEAKER_01]: That's the total commission, right? 36:13.447 --> 36:16.733 [SPEAKER_01]: Like different agents make different commissions depending on their structure. 36:16.793 --> 36:23.103 [SPEAKER_01]: And by the way, it's so worth it to have a portion of that go to the agency, because it's awesome to belong to an awesome agency. 36:23.123 --> 36:25.848 [SPEAKER_01]: It is a 1,000% worth it, but please remember that. 36:25.908 --> 36:31.697 [SPEAKER_01]: The other thing, too, he said, when you work with an agent, you're entering into a shared risk agreement. 36:32.198 --> 36:35.083 [SPEAKER_01]: They, they being the agent, invest labor. 36:35.620 --> 36:41.165 [SPEAKER_01]: you provide intellectual property and you both hope it converts and again it's not that it disagree. 36:41.245 --> 36:42.206 [SPEAKER_01]: I would just build on that. 36:42.246 --> 36:54.577 [SPEAKER_01]: I actually think you're both investing labor because especially when I sign a client that I feel like needs a lot of editorial work, I am asking them to do work before we even go out with it before we even know if it will sell. 36:55.018 --> 36:58.981 [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's really important that the client trusts me and loves the vision. 36:59.322 --> 37:03.045 [SPEAKER_01]: Never make changes that your agent asks for unless you really love the vision. 37:03.025 --> 37:07.356 [SPEAKER_01]: I give my clients a lot of work guys like I know this and so there's labor on both sides. 37:07.476 --> 37:19.026 [SPEAKER_01]: I also think in a weird way there's intellectual property on both sides although only one of them will be sold which is the author's intellectual property but you know the more I the more time I spend in this career I realize that we are 37:19.006 --> 37:27.080 [SPEAKER_01]: accruing a framework, which I know is it does not count as intellectual property for legal purposes, but you know, Carly, you actually really got an example of this. 37:27.100 --> 37:36.296 [SPEAKER_01]: Like you used all the teachings and lessons and wisdom that you accrued over years to build your awesome course, and that is intellectual property, right? 37:36.857 --> 37:39.462 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's in a sense, your clients, 37:39.442 --> 38:07.508 [SPEAKER_02]: get that right whenever they talk to you whenever they they they they exchange information with you because they're getting your brain and so I think I was I would also I guess make that make that distinction the one thing that really stood out to me and it could just be you know my agent so whatever I call them my agent antenna I was curious to hear what you thought about this page because I I was reading through the comments and everybody I should say it was so thankful for this post and everybody loved the post there there are no real critiques of the post I will say 38:07.690 --> 38:25.632 [SPEAKER_02]: But the page that says different agents experience this financial risk differently, which directly affects how much energy they can afford to put into you, I thought that was such an interesting way to frame the different levels of where an agent might be in their career and their time, because I also think. 38:26.000 --> 38:32.188 [SPEAKER_02]: like baby agent versus now that I'm actually way more efficient with my time in my brain space. 38:32.328 --> 38:36.774 [SPEAKER_02]: And so something that could have taken me longer in time labor by and of taking a lot longer. 38:36.814 --> 38:43.903 [SPEAKER_02]: But I have turned that into an energy source that is faster and processes my career if that makes sense. 38:43.923 --> 38:47.147 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so anyway, I found that really interesting and also made me reflect a bit on like, 38:47.903 --> 38:50.567 [SPEAKER_02]: I do the same job as I have always done. 38:50.587 --> 38:51.929 [SPEAKER_02]: I do it differently. 38:51.989 --> 38:56.896 [SPEAKER_02]: I do it faster, arguably, probably better over the years by just having more experience. 38:57.497 --> 39:00.261 [SPEAKER_02]: And I really, I thought that was really interesting distinction. 39:01.723 --> 39:14.181 [SPEAKER_01]: It is, and it's kind of like a paradox, because a simple way to look at it is younger agent, more hungry, has more time, will invest more, because your sale will mean more to them. 39:15.308 --> 39:19.939 [SPEAKER_01]: And older agent, less time, has big clients, doesn't need your book. 39:19.959 --> 39:20.644 [SPEAKER_01]: Like that is a... 39:21.485 --> 39:27.150 [SPEAKER_01]: obviously say it there's a simplistic in a bad way to look at it because it's not that these things aren't true. 39:27.250 --> 39:29.332 [SPEAKER_01]: It's that they're not the whole truth, you know? 39:29.893 --> 39:32.555 [SPEAKER_01]: Like there's so many other factors that matter. 39:32.815 --> 39:34.617 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, baby agents, hungry. 39:34.657 --> 39:36.078 [SPEAKER_01]: There is something so cool about that. 39:36.499 --> 39:38.020 [SPEAKER_01]: Carla and I have said this on multiple times. 39:38.060 --> 39:41.343 [SPEAKER_01]: We will always remember the people who invested in us in the very beginning. 39:41.443 --> 39:45.066 [SPEAKER_01]: I am nowhere near where you are in your career, Carla, but I have been doing it for years now. 39:45.106 --> 39:51.492 [SPEAKER_01]: And so for me, I remember what I first heard in the people 39:51.472 --> 39:56.960 [SPEAKER_01]: But, first of all, I'm not less hungry now, and I know you're not, like, we're not. 39:58.042 --> 40:01.227 [SPEAKER_01]: Two, there is a lot of, like, wisdom and experience that comes with time. 40:01.347 --> 40:03.791 [SPEAKER_01]: And also, I can't, this is shoot the shit we have to be honest. 40:04.632 --> 40:06.595 [SPEAKER_01]: So much of it is also financial anxiety. 40:07.336 --> 40:09.379 [SPEAKER_01]: Agenting was my second career, so it was different from me. 40:09.540 --> 40:12.484 [SPEAKER_01]: But, like, if you're a baby agent straight out of university, 40:12.464 --> 40:14.426 [SPEAKER_01]: chances are you have more financial anxiety. 40:14.466 --> 40:15.888 [SPEAKER_01]: You might have privilege in other senses. 40:15.908 --> 40:19.613 [SPEAKER_01]: You might have like really awesome parents We're willing to like support you and stuff, which is awesome. 40:19.633 --> 40:21.255 [SPEAKER_02]: You live in their basement for years. 40:21.455 --> 40:22.236 [SPEAKER_02]: So I could do this. 40:23.257 --> 40:23.498 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, okay. 40:23.518 --> 40:24.158 [SPEAKER_01]: You're talking about you. 40:24.959 --> 40:25.059 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. 40:25.079 --> 40:25.620 [SPEAKER_01]: I was like, what? 40:26.942 --> 40:28.604 [SPEAKER_01]: My point is like, that's fair, right? 40:28.624 --> 40:32.869 [SPEAKER_01]: Like you might not be in the kind of hard hard straps situation or anything like that, but 40:32.849 --> 40:43.861 [SPEAKER_01]: But it is different when you have frankly money helps, you know, like when you're situation when you're making enough money, you get to buy back your time in so many other aspects of your life and you get to have more time. 40:43.981 --> 40:44.722 [SPEAKER_01]: You just do. 40:44.782 --> 40:47.064 [SPEAKER_01]: And then there's also like the personal thing. 40:47.084 --> 40:49.346 [SPEAKER_01]: Like how much do you have going on their personal lives? 40:49.907 --> 40:51.609 [SPEAKER_01]: And is that stuff that recharge just then? 40:51.709 --> 40:52.810 [SPEAKER_01]: Or is that stuff that drains up? 40:53.150 --> 40:54.792 [SPEAKER_01]: So there's just too many variables. 40:55.012 --> 40:56.174 [SPEAKER_01]: Frankly, too many variables. 40:56.234 --> 40:59.397 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's actually a really fair question for an author to be like, 40:59.377 --> 41:01.220 [SPEAKER_01]: you know, hey, how does communication work with you? 41:01.300 --> 41:04.625 [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, how do they want to know what kind of level of attention they can expect from you? 41:04.685 --> 41:15.701 [SPEAKER_01]: I think these are totally fair questions, but I would encourage people to really, really use your critical thinking when it comes to things like that and don't think things like, yeah, engage it more time, older age at the last time, no. 41:16.162 --> 41:21.570 [SPEAKER_01]: Like it all depends on too many things and you have to really analyze all the variables. 41:21.618 --> 41:42.664 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think my neurons fire faster now from just the repetition of doing this job first for so long, which is very interesting, but thank you to you Don for this interesting post that inspired a lot of questions because it's something worth checking out and I can see almost a thousand people already liked post so again some of you guys have seen it. 41:42.644 --> 41:44.607 [SPEAKER_02]: All right, well, that's all we have for today. 41:44.647 --> 41:50.177 [SPEAKER_02]: We did have one DM and our pet peeves, but I actually have to run because I have a call in three minutes. 41:50.437 --> 41:52.701 [SPEAKER_02]: Do you want to try and hammer out these pet peeves really fast? 41:52.721 --> 41:53.823 [SPEAKER_02]: Or should we save them for next week? 41:53.843 --> 41:55.446 [SPEAKER_02]: No, we should save them for less next week. 41:55.466 --> 41:57.389 [SPEAKER_02]: Pet peeves require time. 41:57.429 --> 41:59.332 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so we didn't get to everything today. 41:59.372 --> 42:02.157 [SPEAKER_02]: We have to get back to our jobs, which is doing our jobs. 42:02.297 --> 42:05.302 [SPEAKER_02]: I have to go with the client, and I don't see CS to get back to work as well. 42:05.362 --> 42:07.005 [SPEAKER_02]: So we're going to save that for next week. 42:07.305 --> 42:08.247 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, everybody. 42:08.969 --> 42:13.297 [SPEAKER_00]: CCLera is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates. 42:13.777 --> 42:21.491 [SPEAKER_00]: If you'd like to query CC, please refer to the Submission Guidelines at www.wshomen.com. 42:22.152 --> 42:33.171 [SPEAKER_00]: Carly Waters is a literary agent at PS Literary Agency, but a work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Carly on this podcast. 42:33.151 --> 42:44.494 [SPEAKER_00]: are solely that of her as a podcast co-host, they do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS literary agency.