[SPEAKER_00]: Hello everybody welcome back to the no bad dogs podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is a lot on packed this one here This is a dog that has severe PTSD from some really unfortunate issue things that have happened to him when he was younger He guys will be able to hear it and so
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, how do you deal with a dog that has warranted PTSD, warranted reaction, warranted untrust, warranted, you know, aggression at such a big, big dog to his 115, 20-pound hot weather.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we just kind of unpack everything and walk through what I would do and pass opportunities so to be successful.
[SPEAKER_00]: So hopefully this is helpful for you guys and I appreciate everybody out there listening and we'll talk to you next.
[SPEAKER_03]: Bye.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's a male intact, rotty, and he's two years old as of November, and we got him at 10 weeks old.
[SPEAKER_03]: We did training, pretty much non-stop from the time we got him.
[SPEAKER_03]: The group sessions, I could pass more.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's just for the socialization and things than just basic training, and we had a private trainer.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because I grew up with German Shepherd's Dobe's,
[SPEAKER_03]: that I personally had, and then around Roddy, so I have a decent, I'll qualify that, you know, a decent understanding of breed characteristics, I think I can put that general.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I know those things are very important, so we were really intensive about that and doing that, and then
[SPEAKER_03]: piece of ear.
[SPEAKER_03]: So then she is suffering from, I shouldn't say suffering.
[SPEAKER_03]: So he's got a couple of things that we deal with.
[SPEAKER_03]: The first is his normal stuff protection and dominance and
[SPEAKER_03]: those alone easy enough for us to deal with because I like I said I have your your layman's understanding of it from dealing up growing up with them.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah and then where we have now where we have problems is we have fear-based aggression and reactivity and we're dealing with PTSD and learned aggression as a tool and these are kind of some of this is my terminology so if it's correct or not and how
[SPEAKER_03]: he was less than a year old so he's your base reactive to joggers anybody on a bicycle and vehicles okay and not when they're coming at him it's when they're even with him or going past is when he'll jump but you could see him you know he'samping up as they're coming but seem to get you in her past it's that's when he barks jumps browse it's not as any of them
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, and that's because when he was about seven months old, um, he was my wife took him on a walk.
[SPEAKER_03]: He was probably about 60 pounds of time hooked him up wrong.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the leash hooked him up to his ID D ring rather than the D ring on the collar.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: He had fox ran past him.
[SPEAKER_03]: He broke that took off run and chasing the fox.
[SPEAKER_03]: Got hit by an SUV.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, send him, send him flying off the road,
[SPEAKER_03]: vehicles are not his friend.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then he's been hit by bicyclist.
[SPEAKER_03]: We live in an area that's very urban, but there's trails out in the trees and parks and stuff and the mountain bikers and so forth.
[SPEAKER_03]: That you some of these trails are not always the most courteous and and kind of feel like the world is around them.
[SPEAKER_03]: So when they come blazing through, if you don't get out of their way, they just yell at you and almost hit you.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, our dog has been clipped
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, bikes scare the crap out of them or he's maybe he's just a aggressive.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then joggers, you know, I part of this area, the challenge for me and maybe it was just the wrong breed, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Is to deal with what we have here.
[SPEAKER_03]: We have people who have no idea about animal.
[SPEAKER_03]: And they will be on the opposite side of the road to be a three-lane route.
[SPEAKER_03]: There could be on the opposite side and they just decide mid-block.
[SPEAKER_03]: They just decided we're going to cut across the road and come right over where you're at in between cars and come out two feet in front of you and turn right at you in your dog.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And they see the dog.
[SPEAKER_03]: But there's just no concept in their brain of like, hey, I have to be shouldn't surprise dogs and stuff like that.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so he just has become scared of joggers because at night, they do the same thing and you really can't see them until they almost run into because they don't wear lights.
[SPEAKER_03]: They're wearing all black stuff like that.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I don't walk in at night.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the day time is pretty easy, as long as I can create about 10, 15 feet of distance.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, he's aware of them, but he's not reacting necessarily.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that's the fear-based aggression reactivity that we're dealing with.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then the PTSD and the learned aggression as a tool.
[SPEAKER_03]: So as a puppy, one of the things that we did is we taught him safe spaces.
[SPEAKER_03]: So like if he didn't like a situation,
[SPEAKER_03]: and he was in the house.
[SPEAKER_03]: He could go to his bed and he would be left alone.
[SPEAKER_03]: That was his state.
[SPEAKER_03]: His created bed.
[SPEAKER_03]: That was a safe space.
[SPEAKER_03]: And everybody knew if he went there, you don't go pet him, you just give him this place.
[SPEAKER_03]: And out in the bow, we taught him to come between my legs or come around behind me.
[SPEAKER_03]: And he unlearned all that because we have, I know you record some of this in the music
[SPEAKER_03]: information and hear how people held the information.
[SPEAKER_03]: Inside our house was a person who had mental health issues and the person decided to attack Jasper or our Roddy at, and this is right, when Jasper was
[SPEAKER_03]: slamming his fist into him, kicking him, trying to snap his back, trying to snap his neck and just violent, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And so Jasper is jumping into the guy, snarling like a muzzle punch, but there was no muzzle on him, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: He wasn't biting.
[SPEAKER_03]: And you know, it's, it's, it was all screaming yelling, get away from me, get away from me, get away from me, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: But the person wouldn't stop.
[SPEAKER_03]: I couldn't get them off of him.
[SPEAKER_03]: And in the end, there was three people, the person with a mental health and two other people, all rolling around on top of Jasper.
[SPEAKER_03]: And at this point, he's about a hundred pounds.
[SPEAKER_03]: And this had gone on for about 45 seconds, and I'm trying to pull the Jasper out, I'm trying to get them away, and this person's still just going raging nuts.
[SPEAKER_03]: And finally, Jasper decides to bite.
[SPEAKER_03]: One person got bit in the side of the head.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was a tag.
[SPEAKER_03]: just a penetration of the teeth.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, there was no tearing, he did not bite down, but the person lost the top of their ear, because he did catch the top of the ear and it's bite.
[SPEAKER_03]: Another person got tagged twice on the arm, and that was the two people who were trying to help.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_03]: And trying to get it, but they were rolling around on top of them in a big pile.
[SPEAKER_03]: They jumped up that free Jasper, he jumped up, he ran away.
[SPEAKER_03]: We were able to restrain the person at that point, got Jasper out of the house.
[SPEAKER_03]: However, and the personal trainer we had at the time, they were like, yeah, he's got some serious PTSD now.
[SPEAKER_03]: Nobody could approach him.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, that person was grabbing his collar.
[SPEAKER_03]: Everything else he wouldn't let anybody come here.
[SPEAKER_03]: His collar couldn't put a leash on him to walk him.
[SPEAKER_03]: Sitting next to him, I was the only one that could sit next to him.
[SPEAKER_03]: And even then, I had to, you know, be sideways.
[SPEAKER_03]: Make sure I'm looking away.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I had to have a couple feet between us.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then so we just over time, we kept, we just got in the porch.
[SPEAKER_03]: He had to be out of the house then at that point, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: So he's been an outside dog since.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we're kind of working on bringing him back in, but go out and sit with him and just be in the space, regain all that trust.
[SPEAKER_03]: And in over time, he'd come back up next to you, a sit, and he'd let me, you know, he put his palm in, pull my arm down, try to get me to pet his belly.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I would, and then my daughter, who's the other primary care giver of him,
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, her, she was next that he started, you know, trust him.
[SPEAKER_03]: But are you familiar with how PTSD works?
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, yeah, not, I mean, I know what it is, but I don't know the process and, you know, the granular details, I don't think.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, I'll explain it a little bit.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm very familiar with, I'm not a doctor, but I have a lot of experiences that I know a lot of people with,
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for your service.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't think you're welcome.
[SPEAKER_03]: So PTSD, there's really two ways, two main ways.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's always exceptions, but two main ways it can form.
[SPEAKER_03]: One is traumatic brain injuries.
[SPEAKER_03]: So like, think trauma ahead, physical injuries to the head.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And they cause chemical reactions and alterations to your brain that then lead to kind of depression, anger, stuff like that.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then there's the psychological PTSD, which is the one most people think of in our familiar with where you've been through a psychological event that is so traumatic, the chemical reactions in your brain have altered your brain and rewired it to where fear, loss of trust, depression, anger, some of the same symptoms as the physical one kind of the same effects, but just the brought about differently, so Jasper is that psychological one because he's in the fight for his life.
[SPEAKER_03]: And he had that going on for about 45 seconds before he did.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then I found out, this was the third time.
[SPEAKER_03]: There was two other times this person had tried to break his back and snap his neck, prior to that one.
[SPEAKER_03]: So when he was like seven years old and about five months old, and the person had not been being nice to him, I found out as well.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's just people didn't tell me, because there was other kids in the house and the kids didn't know what to do.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's just stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: You think it's pick up, but it didn't.
[SPEAKER_03]: So Jasper had been going through all this for about seven months until it culminated in that final event animal control came out at that event.
[SPEAKER_03]: My assessment of time was I thought Jasper did well to be honest.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was my wife that lost the tip of her ear.
[SPEAKER_03]: You're the top of her ear.
[SPEAKER_03]: and it was my son they got tagged twice the two that were in the pile trying to help separate.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is this your adult son or how old is he?
[SPEAKER_03]: He was an adult, yes he was an adult the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Do I mean still a story of how I phrased that?
[SPEAKER_00]: I know he meant.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah he was over 18 when he got tagged he was a 19 I think.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: So so animal control comes out
[SPEAKER_03]: I explained to them what's going on and they were like, you know, I thought he, he unlearned safe spaces because he was getting chased into a safe space.
[SPEAKER_03]: He was, you know, he was there was no place he could go and be safe and he learned the safe space for me is behind my teeth and my muscles.
[SPEAKER_03]: So any time I'm worried, any time I'm afraid, I'm going to my new safe space because it works.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so, and I'm good to all came out that night and I would
[SPEAKER_03]: Talking to them.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was like, I'm worried about having him put down.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's a rody.
[SPEAKER_03]: I do not know how we unlearn this.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_03]: And they said, Hey, you've clearly got a people problem here.
[SPEAKER_03]: You're dealing with this isn't a dog problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Kind of what I said.
[SPEAKER_03]: They were like, Hey, he went 45 seconds without biting in all this going on on top of him.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it turns out now we're finding out in this discussion with people that had things that have all the things I said that haven't prior.
[SPEAKER_03]: They're like, the dog is doing amazing, especially for a rody.
[SPEAKER_03]: So they mandated
[SPEAKER_03]: a 10 day quarantine period for rabies, even though he had a vaccine.
[SPEAKER_03]: And they said, we're doing that, so you can't make any rash decisions.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so he had to stay at home, 10 day quarantine, which was really well, because they would get our personal trainer in.
[SPEAKER_03]: She became uncomfortable working with him because of the PTSD, because he would go from happy, laying upside down, tongue hanging out, zero, 100, and less than a blink of an eye.
[SPEAKER_03]: And you thought you were going to lose your head.
[SPEAKER_03]: And there is never any rhyme or reason to it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that was the PTSD is right.
[SPEAKER_03]: So PTSD when you have it, think of it like you're a conductor on a freight train.
[SPEAKER_03]: Or basically you're, I don't know, you're out in the woods walking through a meadow, watching the butterflies and the birds.
[SPEAKER_03]: You take a nap and then all of a sudden you wake up and you're in the engine of a freight train that is running out of control, crashing through cars, walls, houses,
[SPEAKER_03]: And you're inside this freight train as just a blast and through stuff and you're pulling levers, you're trying to hit breaks, you're trying to figure out how to get this thing to stop.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then finally, it comes to a stop, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: There's it just hits you in those kind of, when that trigger, when you're brain flips like that because of the PTSD, you just, it's not a thought, it's not a decision, it just is a reaction.
[SPEAKER_03]: because when things are getting that from combat, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: The reaction you learn in combat is instant aggression.
[SPEAKER_03]: You got to be zero to 100 to save your life and everything.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so kind of correlate that to what Jasper went through.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's why he would do that.
[SPEAKER_03]: So there was no real triggers other than his mental state, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And they could have happened at any time.
[SPEAKER_03]: And they were happening often like daily for a while.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then it went to maybe once a week.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then it went to, you know,
[SPEAKER_03]: every two months.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then it was about every three months, you know, kind of the cycle was getting longer.
[SPEAKER_03]: And you never cure PTSD.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's more of a mitigation and skill teaching and tools of how to deal with it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that it doesn't you don't go from walking in the meadow, taking a nap to in the engine of a freight train that's out of control, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And so we did a board and train with a trainer and a company here for seven weeks.
[SPEAKER_03]: We did that this last September through October.
[SPEAKER_03]: and they introduced him to the e-colour, which that training was really, really helpful.
[SPEAKER_03]: It made a big difference.
[SPEAKER_03]: And in mostly in helping us communicate with Jasper using the e-colour and other things, other methods that they help us with, in that seven weeks, that trainer, which to give you some context of the assessment he gave us, I'll give you context for that.
[SPEAKER_03]: He has experienced this, so he's prior,
[SPEAKER_03]: Military working with military dogs, did it as a contractor with a military for explosives or an inch for clearance, tactical clearances or other things from military working dogs, left that behind and training out, you know, private sector, what he has been doing now for a while.
[SPEAKER_03]: And his experience in the private sector, he recently, I don't know if his year ago, or so he said, you know, he deals with a lot of extremely big aggressive dogs and seems
[SPEAKER_03]: especially that he always gets asked in here.
[SPEAKER_03]: And this dog that the reason dog you had is on the state's dangerous animals list, it had a killed two dogs, it had a tact of a and a tact of cop.
[SPEAKER_03]: And you know, so that's the kind of dog he's used to.
[SPEAKER_03]: So his assessment at Jasper was that Jasper is one of the most dominant dogs he's ever met and is the most human aggressive dog he's ever met.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now, that kind of surprised me.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, we see kind of the normal dominance, current competition stuff a little bit air being now, and then they never really challenges us.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I don't see the human aggressive, but that was his experience, because he's like Jasper would never warm up to anybody.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's definitely a family, or he's got a family, and that's his family, and nobody else really he's all relationship-based.
[SPEAKER_03]: but however after that seven week like I said things have improved drastically it helped a lot basically with helping us communicate even and he taught us some training things and it was a lot better than the personal trainer because the personal trainer was a I didn't notice at time when we started working with her she was a positive only and so you know we were just jumping
[SPEAKER_03]: fricking boatloads of money and treats down Jasper's through.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it did great for teaching, but it did zero for reliability, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: It was always his decision if a command was going to work or not.
[SPEAKER_03]: And most of the time, that was kind of iffy.
[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that's where we're at now.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm trying to figure out how I continue to help with
[SPEAKER_03]: the PTSD, those skills, deal with that, how to help with this learned aggression now that, hey, when I'm afraid it's my teeth and my muscle that are gonna keep me safe and get him back to, I can be safe with other, doing it other ways.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then also, you know, we've been working the desensitization with cars, bikes, joggers.
[SPEAKER_03]: But that's coming along really, really slow.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, don't know if I'm doing it wrong or not, et cetera.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we were really happy with the board and train that we did in that trainer.
[SPEAKER_03]: I still kind of go back and do refreshers with them.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm breached out to you guys because, you know, see what your stuff is online.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm looking at what you do and what you teach, really like your thought processes.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I feel like I can always, you know, always want to learn something new from somebody else.
[SPEAKER_03]: and you know, continue to improve how we can do things and so that's why I've reached out is like, hey, what, I don't know, what's next or how we keep moving, take this even for more, more down the road.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not asking or expecting Jasper to be a therapy dog.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, don't give me wrong.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not asking that he runs around the neighborhood asking everybody to pet him.
[SPEAKER_03]: I didn't get, and I've never had a dog like that because that's what I want.
[SPEAKER_03]: I want a dog that's gonna be protection based.
[SPEAKER_03]: It will be safe around my family, my family will be safe around them.
[SPEAKER_03]: People will not come in our property, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: He's gonna, they're gonna see him and they're gonna leave.
[SPEAKER_03]: But at the same time, yeah, I want him to be neutral when we're out walking and stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's kind of, that's kind of where we're at.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're not really neutral on the out and walking.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we haven't brought him back in the house yet because not so sure how to go with my wife.
[SPEAKER_03]: because he still seems to be like my still don't trust her, because he didn't know the difference of somebody trying to help her not.
[SPEAKER_03]: He just knew she was one of the people rolling around on top of him while he was gonna shit get darkened.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, have you muzzle trained him?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yep, he'll wear a muzzle.
[SPEAKER_03]: It gets tired a bit after a little while.
[SPEAKER_03]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, there's a lot to unpack, but I think like I always tell my clients is we want to remove, we want to try to reduce stress, we want to try to turn up safety as much as we can with situations like this.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, I mean, things, top of the head is intact, big rot-weiler gone through an enormous amount of stress at a very early age.
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't surprise me that he doesn't trust people.
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't surprise me that he fights through things that he is afraid of.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't blame them, it's not, you know, especially with that breed, you know, some smaller, like more docile, less confident or less pushy dogs might just run away or pitil or roll over and play dead.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, but you get a big intact male that has gone through that none of that surprises me.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, um, right now, I think, you know, the question is, is like, okay, how do we remain safe?
[SPEAKER_00]: How do we have a quality of life for the dog?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and, and I think my opinion would be continue to do what you're doing as far as not allowing him to interact with people that he doesn't know or interact with people that he might not
[SPEAKER_00]: Do well with like that that switch that turns on.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think you said like your past trainer would Not trust him or not work with him because he would turn a switch.
[SPEAKER_00]: So for me, you know my question would be I think that there's a a very black and white Schedule and and thing that you have to do with him which would be no new people Need to be petting him.
[SPEAKER_00]: So again, just to give you context of what I'm coming from
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's say trainer comes in, and trainer is interacting with the dog, paying the dog, treating, playing with the dog, and then all of a sudden the dog snaps.
[SPEAKER_00]: So a dog that has this much PTSD and uncertainty and insecurity and almost neurotic behavior where they can just turn,
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I, what would be, you know, the ROI of a dog interacting with a person that we don't know is, you know, and that's not really a question, it's more just a kind of a statement, you know, like there's no, the risk over reward doesn't make any sense, you know what I'm saying, like we go into this situation.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the reward is that the professional trainer can interact with the dog, but the professional trainer is not going to be in the dog's life for very long They don't live here, it doesn't really matter They only benefit to it is maybe seeing that somebody can interact with the dog and you can break down those barriers and the dog can overcome his fears
[SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, the risk, in my opinion, is much greater than those rewards, which is if the dog does snap and then bite the trainer or anybody, you're in a much worse place, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because now your confidence is like, oh man.
[SPEAKER_00]: Dang, I should have, I should have done this or I should have done that or I shouldn't have let this happen and then you go, well, I knew that could have happened and then of course now the dog is a bite and another bite on on the record.
[SPEAKER_00]: So for me, those are the things that I outweigh and and it's also then a matter of is it realistic and fair for you and the dog with the lifestyle that you have.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, what I would be, if I were you, I would say, okay, Jasper's my dog, I'm going to be caring for him.
[SPEAKER_00]: He went through a lot of stuff and he has really bad trust issues.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want anybody else hurt.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want...
[SPEAKER_00]: Jasper to feel like he needs to make that decision.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to have to be stressed about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to be this main handler.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you want to start integrating your wife or your daughter or anybody else into the picture, then again, like something that you have to assess is the risk-reward assessment, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the benefit would be you guys have really good encounters for months, and now your daughter feels more comfortable, you wife feels more comfortable.
[SPEAKER_00]: But personally just dealing with these dogs, and I know you, I think any man as a daughter has kids and has a wife.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you're still going to be nervous.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're still going to be watching.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're still going to be reluctant.
[SPEAKER_00]: you're still going to be even if you have like a couple weeks of really good behaviors and he's kind of walking around or he's interacting with your family I would assume that you're also going to be holding your breath going uh uh you know so I can say for my side of two daughters the oldest one is the other primary caretaker both my daughters are are comfortable with them like they're out playing with them all the time tossing a ball petting him now
[SPEAKER_03]: He's very comfortable with that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not worried about him around them to be on some very confident with that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Just nobody else.
[SPEAKER_03]: Not my wife.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, not anybody else.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we don't really want him to meet other people.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Awesome.
[SPEAKER_03]: We never risk it and have no desire for that to happen anyway.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, what is your goal then?
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's, let's reframe this to, what do you, what is your, because it kind of sounds like you have your, like, to me, it sounds like you're doing everything you need to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, hey, this dog went through some really bad stuff and now I'm going to limit who he interacts with and we're going to keep, you know, where to play zookeeper, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: That sounds good.
[SPEAKER_00]: What, what else are you looking for?
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, so how, how do I, I think how to handle the PTSD,
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm kind of guessing, right, I'm guessing it based off of people, you know, my own experiences and people I know, right, and and how to try to mitigate that, but that's a different than dog is can't communicate and experiences are different.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's hard.
[SPEAKER_03]: So how do I continue to to build longer periods without an incident or without him snapping back on the PTSD, how about a flashback where you will call it.
[SPEAKER_03]: So because the longer those go,
[SPEAKER_03]: the more it mitigates it right it's never completely goes away but it mitigates it and we've gone a few months now before you since you know he has had one of those so it's getting longer and longer but what's a good way to do that and then the other one is this just neutrality just to be able to walk down the sidewalk and be neutral if somebody's across the road because at five cars could go by and then all of a sudden he snaps at the next four you know
[SPEAKER_03]: a person can walk past 15 feet away.
[SPEAKER_03]: He doesn't, he doesn't.
[SPEAKER_03]: He knows they're there, obviously.
[SPEAKER_03]: But he's not looking at him.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's sniffing doesn't care.
[SPEAKER_03]: All of a sudden, another person goes by and he is lunging and jumping at him and reactive as they walk past.
[SPEAKER_03]: Not as they're coming out as but as they walk past.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so, you know, I don't know how much of that is me.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, he's feeding off of me.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like maybe I start to get a little tense because I'm like, oh, is this gonna be the one or not?
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm really looking for help in those two areas.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, great.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, here's what I would do is, and I do with this, actually regularly with my master who just decided he's gonna be reactive at two because he matureged.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was watching your videos with that with it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, certainly right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, and so the way that I handle it is, okay, and I'll just give you context.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think this is helpful.
[SPEAKER_00]: So because he doesn't really have PTSD.
[SPEAKER_00]: He just, I mean, I mean, a couple golden's in the neighborhood kind of snapped out of a couple times, but I don't think that's enough to
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I think it's just he hits actual maturity and now he's feeling himself and his his Protectiveness just went from yeah his protective this just went from ten out of ten to twenty out of ten so so so here's how I deal with it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I I used to Do my dismantlement right my inside turn my outside turn hey here's a food going to a down I used to use my obedience to to counter and it's fine
[SPEAKER_00]: and sometimes I still can but if and I don't you know obviously I don't why I guess I could but I don't ask my neighbors when they're walking around if their dogs have balls or not right but if a dog is intact he goes I mean it's it's it's a binary like shift he goes into cujo mode like he smells this dog and he just and I don't even need to ask anymore I'm just like so so in recent times
[SPEAKER_00]: when he puts that pressure on himself with a prong collar he can redirect on me because he gets pissed off.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I've talked about that a lot when you're kind of playing with fire there.
[SPEAKER_00]: You got to be careful.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what I do, I brought him to the vet yesterday because we're going to get him neutered just to try to turn down this testosterone a little bit.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I ran to the vet and we walked out of a room and there was a dog right there and the dog started barking at him first and well then of course boom, he went zero to 100.
[SPEAKER_00]: So instead of hey quit it, knock it off because I can't reach him.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like you know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_03]: He doesn't hear you.
[SPEAKER_00]: He doesn't hear me.
[SPEAKER_00]: He doesn't feel me.
[SPEAKER_00]: He doesn't.
[SPEAKER_00]: And in fact, if you do try to interject and physically stop him, he gets pissed and then he'll even look back at me, which is
[SPEAKER_00]: Something I'm working through but and it's not it's not uncommon like that doesn't surprise me by the way It's just he's he really feels like we're all gonna die this whole building is gonna die because of this dog And you need to let me do my job and I'm kind of like know you can't and then that's where he he's like, you know This is this is due this is life or death for him.
[SPEAKER_00]: So anyway, so ways that I've been handling it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I switch to a slip leash
[SPEAKER_00]: and I'll basically just string him up and then move him away and then he calms down.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I don't try to correct him in a sense of hey you're doing something wrong, quit the shit, do something better because I can't reach him and I've been working with these types of dogs long enough to understand like when they see red, it's you could do a lot of things preemptively which I have courses on actually,
[SPEAKER_00]: and it works but there's like this 1% right and I would say this 1% is that intact over 2 over year and a half super protective breed and then that's where you got to like you know a spades a spade here right like okay he's doing what I kind of got him for right so what I do is so if you're out for your walk and he he he he fires up
[SPEAKER_00]: I, I a lot of times will just pull up on the slip and it discourages the dog naturally by lifting their head up obviously their upset because you're you're giving them a a continual pressure correction, but it's not amping the dog up.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not gassing the dog up.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're not causing him conflict in a way that he's going to come back.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're kind of just discouraging the way that I see it in my head If this makes any sense is as soon as my dog starts to like show smoke or flames I'm taking a giant bucket of water and I'm pulling up on the leash and I'm moving away And I'm just dumping the water on going hey, we're extinguishing this we're moving on
[SPEAKER_00]: because there's correcting it, he's not gonna not do that, full stop.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's always going to do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, that's why I got him.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'd be actually disappointed if somebody came into my house and he had on my neighborhood and he's like, oh, hey, I'm like, okay, do your broke.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, again, but the only unfortunate thing I would say is because his size, which means I'm the only one who can walk him now,
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, the other people feeling the fear of God, because you got this 160-pound rhino going crazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: And to be honest, he's never had a, like a, he's, I was walking to my neighborhood a couple weeks ago and this dog got out of their invisible fence and came after him.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like pushing the other dog away, the owner's trying to grab the dog and he just sat there and looked at the dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's it's classic leash reactivity.
[SPEAKER_00]: Once he gets to the dog I mean that's he's never hurt any you know He's never bitten anybody this is a little bit different But so I would extinguish pull up on the slip Move away the dog comes down you release the pressure and then you move on
[SPEAKER_00]: I wouldn't be trying to correct the dog, does he, let's let's set up a scenario.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're on a walk.
[SPEAKER_00]: When he does react to the cars, is he cutting in front of you and lunging like he's like, if you were to let go, would he like hit the car or is he just barking in place?
[SPEAKER_03]: I think he would cut in front of me and lunge at it.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I have him on, I walk him with the
[SPEAKER_03]: And so it's the shock.
[SPEAKER_03]: It has a beep and it has a vibrate of beep in a shock and I use the beep in the shock.
[SPEAKER_03]: The vibrate isn't much of a vibration and he would never notice it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then I have a more pronged a herm spranger and then the herm spranger is safe you linked to a flat collar.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I'm always up to the herm spranger and I have the remote my hand for the e-colour and then a car will come.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I can tell right away, I hope this one's going to be an issue.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, or yeah, or yeah, or you can tell like that you don't care.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so as soon as I see it's an issue, I'll verbally give a heal or I'll click to give a treat because that'll distract him enough as well.
[SPEAKER_03]: A lot of times, or I'll use the beep on the remote to on his collar to get his attention.
[SPEAKER_03]: He hears that beep a lot of times.
[SPEAKER_03]: That'll be enough.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I need to pay attention to you.
[SPEAKER_03]: But once that switch blips, he's across the front of me or behind me, and he's jumping and growling, snarling, like you said, scared to shit out of people.
[SPEAKER_03]: I kind of secretly enjoy a little bit of that to you on that.
[SPEAKER_03]: But then what I do at that point is, because just like your dog, if I correct him,
[SPEAKER_03]: He's turning around and he's like, oh, you're the one hurting me.
[SPEAKER_03]: He's doing something to me.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I don't correct.
[SPEAKER_03]: I learned that a while ago with him not to correct like that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: So what I do is I, I, I, I just keep walking.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't look at the back at the car, the person the bike.
[SPEAKER_03]: I just keep walking.
[SPEAKER_03]: Is it nothing in the world is going on?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: He'll hit the end.
[SPEAKER_03]: He feels the herm springer.
[SPEAKER_03]: He stops pulling forward.
[SPEAKER_03]: And there's really no tension on the leash as soon as he hits that and he backs off of it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I see him turn around every time and look at me.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the puzzle book on a space of like, oh, you're not doing anything to me.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then he snaps out of me.
[SPEAKER_03]: He comes back with me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hmm.
[SPEAKER_00]: But does he ever redirect on you or or anything like that?
[SPEAKER_00]: Or does he just ignore you when he locks in?
[SPEAKER_03]: He does not redirect on me unless I, like if I try to do a collar, a, a question with the loser.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and there's something then he's turning around at me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, so it's the same, yeah, sorry, go ahead.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so he grabs the leash.
[SPEAKER_03]: But when those instances happen, I have a handle that's right down by the collar.
[SPEAKER_03]: And when, you know, it's a four foot or six foot leash, I forget which it's not a very long one.
[SPEAKER_03]: But when there's happened, I let go of the handle by the collar and I just hang on to the long ones that when he turns around he has a second to realize or some distance to realize, oh, that's you, I'm not going to I'm not going to bite you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, the in like I said before.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, Burley does the same thing again.
[SPEAKER_00]: I same thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like the intact thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: We will walk past three dogs and he could care less and then all of a sudden He's and I think it's just because it's another intact dog, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: You just and I've talked about this a lot like I know when he's Locked in and personally what I do if I can is I just go the other way because I'm like, I don't I don't need this smoke right and nobody does really So
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, that's good.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's good information.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, so the beep and then do have you ever enforced with the E collar correction after the beep if he ignores it?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I did.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was doing that from October up until I admitted to this mid December.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then what I noticed was my timing is not good with the shock.
[SPEAKER_03]: How would you usually hit the beat and go immediately to the shock and let's he broke away from it right if you broke away from it then hey this is the good feeling I mean telling you what you already know obviously, but this is what you want to do.
[SPEAKER_03]: However, if he is at the end and he's jumping at that and I'm shocking it amps him up more.
[SPEAKER_03]: that it amp them up more and so I don't use the shock and really I have not had to use the shock for quite a while.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, thank you for the last three or four weeks.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it seems, yeah, and it seems to check out with all of my research over the years and, of course, my own personal dog that when you get a dog that's doing, especially intact males, like it's different, when you have like a dog just being a jerk, like you can correct them and they're like, oops, or, you know, you could do a lot of the dismantlement and the inside turns and all that stuff, but there's like this, there's like this, I would say one to five person, it's a low low person's a dogs who just,
[SPEAKER_00]: you got to get out of the situation because what so anyway it makes sense it's all correlating the moment that you apply that pressure it just it just doesn't work right most times it does for most dogs but when you have a dog that's pretty serious and in your case or on his case I should say you know with the potential PTSD you know it's serious like he's like
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I think we're under attack here, like, you know, there's this trauma that's rooted in him that, you know, the people that he wants trust it or the home that he wants was in all of a sudden turned violent quick on him.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so you could just see that trigger happen and it's it's kind of out of your control of when when he decides it's going to happen.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it sounds like maybe it's even under his control.
[SPEAKER_00]: He just snaps.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I would recommend how much does he weigh?
[SPEAKER_03]: That'll 120, 120, but I've...
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I would, here's what I would do.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would try all, this is what, again, this is the exact blueprint I did with my dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would, I would use a slip, if you don't have one, we have them on our site, the reason why my, my important is because they have a spring loaded stopper, so you can go on Amazon and get one, that has a spring loaded stopper, but you want it to stay in position.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I would try a slip when he reacts, pressure up,
[SPEAKER_00]: and then down and then up and you're not it's not really a correction it doesn't it's not the same as like a prong collar correction or an e collar correction it's basically just diffusing the situation neutrality and you're controlling the situation much safer right so again same thing with my dog he's just brought him to the vet yesterday's one sixty uh when he goes
[SPEAKER_00]: I physically can't get enough umph to correct him and when I if and when I do he gets he just it's like throwing fire on a like a flat earth throwing gas airplane so I just if I'm in this same thing I like I walked out of the door boom there was a dog right there he reacted pressure up I moved away
[SPEAKER_00]: walked around the thing and I put him in and then he snaps out of it too.
[SPEAKER_00]: So he kind of sees this open under attack and then you can see him start to come back.
[SPEAKER_00]: You could see him like walk like, oh, welcome back to reality, burly like you could see him then what I do is then I get Mobidians, which is great.
[SPEAKER_00]: So once that I don't I don't want to call it rage, but once that like red zone is done,
[SPEAKER_00]: Pull up with this slip move him away and he's fighting me and fighting me and fight me He's not redirecting but basically I'm just you know pulling this head up and this is this is And again, I want to reiterate to that this is a You know potential life or death situation for For dogs not because they're gonna kill a dog, but because if they do bite another dog or if a dog bites him
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's just not good, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So you really wanted to use the situation quickly, like smolder that fire as soon as you start to see smoke.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I do pressure up, walk away, I can see my dog come back, I put him into a down and we're back to basic obedience.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that would be my recommendation to start with, is just see what that does for you, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: When you start to get that freak out, to see if it helps to fuse the situation safely.
[SPEAKER_00]: effectively.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: What do you mean by pressure up pressure down?
[SPEAKER_03]: Do you mean by pressure up you mean with this because I've never used a slip.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I got to learn how to do that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: You mean lifting him up is pressure up and then just kind of letting him
[SPEAKER_03]: So letting it back down is pressure down what you mean by up and down.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, good question.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, okay, let's, let's, we have a dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're in a, in a position where they're about to lunge or bark or react or all three, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So they're about to go.
[SPEAKER_00]: So of course, they're head, they're chest and their legs go forward and they're scraping they're low, they're like, they need to get to this dog or this person in your case, whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so at that point, if you have like a traditional set up a leash on a collar or a leash on like a harness or something like that you're going to go horizontal like your arm is going to extend and now you're just an extension of the dog and it's just a matter of time before they pull you or knock you over or you let go like it's just inevitable.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, what I do is I have a slip leash, which again is just like a loop and then you tie it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so as soon as I see the dog go, I go straight up with the dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this forces the head to come up.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you automatically get your positioning better, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: You automatically get your air quotes power back, because as soon as a Douglas, you know, I'm kind of doing this in motion here.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can't see me, but the dog just pulls and now your arm is extended, like your cast in a spell or a fly rod.
[SPEAKER_00]: your arms extended and now you only you don't even have elbow space right you're just locked in so it's you know especially for my dog he will just pull me over like he's he's too strong right he's got so much advantage right so if
[SPEAKER_00]: I get into a situation where he goes, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And he decides to choose that route.
[SPEAKER_00]: I take my slip.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's right behind his ears, like under his chin, which again, the slip leash is very important positioning.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you can go to Walmart right now, grab a slip leash, and it's going to be nylon, or it's going to be
[SPEAKER_00]: like leather and that's going to fall out of place.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not going to keep your, so then when it's happening is your slip, your circle, your rope around the dog's neck is going to go all the way down to their chest and now you might as well just put a harness on.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, so think about like a shirt, like if you ever watch the like a show dog with the Westminster or something like that, they all use these slips, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: They're just high in tight, they make the dog
[SPEAKER_00]: And so when your dog goes you go straight up with the slip and then when I'm when I'm talking about is your arm is pulling that slip up so your dog is naturally the head's going to go up and they're going to fight you and then and then what I do is I release like okay and then if they go again, whoop, it's right back up.
[SPEAKER_00]: But a lot of times, especially with a dog like Burley, again, walking out of that and then him running into a dog that's reacting to him, I'm not going to stand there and wait for him to not care.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm up.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm moving away and then I'm down, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm giving him an opportunity to make a better decision that's safe for me because I can control him in those circumstances with that slip.
[SPEAKER_03]: Is that almost like it's kind of like
[SPEAKER_03]: Making, you know, a higher level of this, but like that beep for me on my e-collar, it's something that gets their attention.
[SPEAKER_03]: So when you're lifting up like that, it almost overrides that switch flipping into 100 mile an hour.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, do it in time because I would say it's like, hey.
[SPEAKER_03]: I've got your attention now, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And then that keeps them from really going all the way.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: It keeps them from going forward.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just the safest way.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you find, like, if you go online and find dog trainers that are getting, like, this happens all the time with dog trainers, and this is what you have, this is what you have.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what you should do, it's what you have to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you don't get bit.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like if a dog is coming after me or a dog is going after somebody, you're basically pulling up and you're basically choking the dog out so they can't get to you.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it's kind of like, you know, if somebody was trying to get to you and your arm is like under their throat, like you're stopping them from getting to you.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the only, once you collapse that you're done, they're going to get to you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, and, and, and, and it's different for dog is reflexes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like dogs reflexes are much much different.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like for police dogs and working dogs.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is something they have to do daily, because they will not let go.
[SPEAKER_00]: They just, they just get.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if a dog is on, you know, a bad guy, or, you know, in most cases, they're training, you know, a fake bad guy.
[SPEAKER_00]: The dogs on them, they're on that bite.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a good chance they're not going to say out, or, like, oh, when you say out,
[SPEAKER_00]: This should, but, you know, reality hits, so what they do is they grab the collar, they pull up, and then the dog goes, oh, I can't breathe, I can't breathe, and then they'll let go and then you move away.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's really just a power shift to be able to just pull up because it's safer that way, so that way you're not, hey, you're not trying to correct the dog and adding gas to the flame,
[SPEAKER_00]: is better, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's more safe for you.
[SPEAKER_00]: So as soon as the dog goes like you're out with him, you see him lock in.
[SPEAKER_00]: You go, oh, this is going to be the car.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's going to lunge at.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is going to be the dog at the person he lunges at.
[SPEAKER_00]: And right when he goes, pressure up, he's going to fight you.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's going to fight you.
[SPEAKER_00]: And basically your arm is just like up.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you let go and you say, okay, moving on, and if he goes again, then you find him on it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it is a type, I guess I should say, I guess it is a type of correction, but it's the safe way to get a dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is very specific to a dog that.
[SPEAKER_00]: A is could overpower you, not you over, but also a dog that if you do correct in a traditional way, it'll work against you.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then of course, if you have a dog that just you're not correcting, it'll do the same thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: It'll work against you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Your dog is just going to get to that other dog and or other person or get nailed by a car door or something.
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's all these things.
[SPEAKER_00]: So does that make sense?
[SPEAKER_03]: It does.
[SPEAKER_03]: If I understand it correctly, I have a couple of questions.
[SPEAKER_03]: But if I understand it correctly, it's like from my dog, it's him correcting himself almost to be honest.
[SPEAKER_03]: So like the, the when he hits, when he jumps at something, he hits that into the leash and he feels that prong collar pulling on his neck.
[SPEAKER_03]: He stops and he looks back.
[SPEAKER_03]: He comes back.
[SPEAKER_03]: He turns around at the
[SPEAKER_03]: He then becomes more focused on, oh, I'm coming back to you, rather than jumping at that car again.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I think the difference is he realizes he's causing it.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not me ranking on the leash.
[SPEAKER_03]: Here is up.
[SPEAKER_03]: I was, if I yank on the leash, he knows it's me.
[SPEAKER_03]: And he does not happy about that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Is that kind of the same?
[SPEAKER_03]: Is that, is that what it is?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, I did not usually not necessarily using the slip lead to like, I know you said power steering, but I don't think you meant by like being able to manhandle them and drag them around and have power over them.
[SPEAKER_03]: No, no, not at all communication.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a safer way to handle a very stressful situation that can go from a normal walk to a very dangerous chaotic, you know, lawsuit written, you know, type of thing, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So again, when I'm saying all this stuff, I'm talking about, well, the alternative is the dog eating put down, are you getting sued or somebody getting bit or are all of the above,
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, obviously, you know, when we're not doing this to the average dog or the puppy, we're doing this to save a dog's life and we're not manhandling, we're coming up because you're about to lose leverage, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: That dog's about to go and if they're going to drag you or they're going to get to the thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you're using the slip leash to pull up and then, you know, maybe for five to seven seconds and then down like again, if I were to, for an example,
[SPEAKER_00]: If I were to be walking by myself somewhere in the world, and I saw a dog attacking somebody, that's how I would get the dog off them.
[SPEAKER_00]: As I would go up and I would pull up on the collar, and then the dog would let go, and then I would remove the dog from the thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: That would be my first instinct to do, because that always works.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, well, we would do, and I was a kid, and one of the dogs might get a little too carried away or not to go to somebody we would just Reach around grab under the through and not the trachea self, but kind of like up around the trachea And you don't squeeze with your fingertips, you just kind of squeeze the whole thing and it gives him a gag reflection.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, reflux.
[SPEAKER_03]: Is that kind of the same thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I've never done that, I'm not sure, but like I said, you know, it's when you start like the this I guess it's kind of the same thing but when you start to get you got to be I don't want you to I want you to work smarter not harder I don't I want you to work efficiently and effectively and not in a dangerous way so the moment that the dog goes all you're doing is you're taking that leash that's already attached that's made for the dog and you're pulling up to reduce the dog pulling dragging and of course the reaction.
[SPEAKER_00]: and then you're letting the dog back down and a lot of times they come back to their senses, they snap out of it, and then you move on.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is all, again, if your e-collar failed or your prone collar makes it worse, this is, you know, a really safe and easy way to do it.
[SPEAKER_00]: That doesn't hurt your dog and it doesn't cause, you know, a relationship issue.
[SPEAKER_00]: The dog just goes and you go, nope, when you basically just stop the dog from going.
[SPEAKER_03]: don't put it because it seems like that would write in about the same places that e-colors.
[SPEAKER_03]: So don't use the e-colors.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, you, you would, you would do this slip would go the highest and then your e-color would go below below that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's a really would be a need for the prawn collar on them at the same time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I would just, yeah, I would just try.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is just an option for you to try.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: I will
[SPEAKER_03]: bad behavior dogs in our neighborhood surprised, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's just kind of common.
[SPEAKER_03]: And these are all pretty big dogs in our neighborhood.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's a husky.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think there's a dogo Argentino and know that people have done training with their dogs.
[SPEAKER_03]: And when their dogs see another dog, they're literally dragging them across the road, trying to get at the other dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: In Jasper, Jasper does not
[SPEAKER_03]: For most part, he doesn't react to him until they start getting close and then you know it's getting more on at that point.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's it's life or death, but I can take into the dog park and let me Let me describe that to you.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't take him in the dog park.
[SPEAKER_03]: I go outside the fence and I create some distance and I use it for training to work on obedience and paying attention to me and stuff like that.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I never ever take him in.
[SPEAKER_03]: I hate dog parks.
[SPEAKER_03]: They're just good for distracted environment for training
[SPEAKER_03]: I will let him go up to the fence.
[SPEAKER_03]: There'll be four or five dollars notice.
[SPEAKER_03]: I have fence growling barking, jumping at the fence and he just stands there and he'll look back at me.
[SPEAKER_03]: People will walk up.
[SPEAKER_03]: They won't.
[SPEAKER_03]: I tell him not to reach through the fence, but they'll bend down.
[SPEAKER_03]: They're literally six inches from him.
[SPEAKER_03]: He just stands there looking at them.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then you'll call him and he'll just come back to me.
[SPEAKER_03]: Great.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that's because he knows there's a fence there.
[SPEAKER_03]: In real life, I would never, ever allow anybody that close or, you know, real life, I mean without a fence, I would never allow anybody that close, but it's just kind of weird that he's just very calm as if the fence is in the middle.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and that's a good way to do it for sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you can work on your techniques and your handling during that time, too.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can go, and I always tell people to do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Unfortunately, for a reactive dog, especially a big strong reactive dog, I think people are more
[SPEAKER_00]: They kind of just they see they you know they block out right they're like oh my god You know, I just don't want anything to bad happen and they kind of forget the skill sets and they forget the training that they've done to to help So you know, and I don't you know, I'm a blame him.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I've been there.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been at the hook on my whole life So
[SPEAKER_00]: I get it, you know, now I just have a set of skills to know what to do, and so what I try to tell people is go into those situations like outside of the dog park or even if you do have an interaction on your walk.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like really think about what worked and what didn't and why what equipment worked and those are some good opportunities for you to learn and go, okay, this is what's working.
[SPEAKER_03]: So the one thing I didn't mention is, and I think, but I think you understood it from what I was saying probably.
[SPEAKER_03]: His aggression ladder, like it went to like two wrongs.
[SPEAKER_03]: Zero of nothing to, you know, I'm jumping into your snarling, and then the top wrong is I'm trying to kill you.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so we're gradually starting to see more wrongs in that aggression ladder reappear.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, the eyes, the posture, some other things, but definitely not all of them are there yet.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I have no idea how to re-teach that and how to do any of getting him to do the normal progression of an aggression virus so you can read it and see stuff coming.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, and that's that's a loaded question I know.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I think it's more of a statement like you know that his, his interact, his, his ladder of reactivity and aggression is, and that happens with maturity.
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but it's exactly what I saw with my dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: He never, ever reacted the way that he starting to at two, right when he hit two, almost like exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: Boom, he just skyrocketed into this next orbit of now I really, really care.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it'd be like, you know, when I have young kids, I have a three, you know, one year old.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's just so endearing and cool to just see them not understand life yet.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're so naive.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that that's how kind of immature dogs are, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: They just go around like, up, up, up, up, up, up.
[SPEAKER_00]: But that whatever life like nobody can hurt me like there's no bad things in the world and then all of a sudden When they become the protector if you will You know, and it's you know fatherhoods like that too like all of a sudden you're like, oh, I have kids now like I'm way more protective now Like you know, I don't I don't let him out of my sight the grocery anywhere like I'm just different right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So with our dogs Same thing with Jasper's like as soon as they hit that
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you throw in your trauma, the dog's trauma, with that innate protective aggression.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a recipe for what you're dealing with.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think given the conversation, the tools of given the tools of what we need to do is we need to keep them safe and we need to know how to handle him when he does react.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's why I think working on this handling and this reaction
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, then do you think like I don't know, you know, the, the, the, the, right, did our burden train that I checked in with every so often now he's like, you know, we just, you just gotta keep working it.
[SPEAKER_03]: But again, I don't know what else to do other than what I'm doing now to keep doing it better.
[SPEAKER_03]: Do you think that there's training, I mean, you're a, a bit of a drive that I can, um, I can get up there or you're at,
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, is there anything like, do you think would help or just keep doing what we're doing?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I, okay, good question.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the things that are going to be helpful for you are knowing your boundaries, knowing your limits, knowing what you shouldn't should do.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so what that means is
[SPEAKER_00]: You should just have a mental note of This is what I'm gonna allow Jasper to do in his life and here's what I'm not gonna allow So for an example like your wife and it's up to you completely if you said I don't he doesn't need to be You know friendly with my wife.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't care then fine
[SPEAKER_00]: But if you're like, but I'd like to try or it would be helpful or whatever, then that would be the muzzle and then walking around and trying to really work in your wife in that situation.
[SPEAKER_00]: But again, if she's uncomfortable, you're uncomfortable in the dog's event inevitably going to be uncomfortable, then it's not worth it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So as far as training goes, you know, I think right now it's more of a management system than it is training, because it doesn't sound like your dog is disobedient, it doesn't sound like your dog doesn't.
[SPEAKER_00]: not listen to you it sounds like your dog has their his people like your daughters and you and it sounds like that's about it then you just have to make that kind of plan of okay well this is his life and this is his people and this is how it's gonna go and I think as long as you do that you're not gonna have any issues moving forward
[SPEAKER_00]: outside of working on the reaction.
[SPEAKER_00]: The only thing I would say for training like to work with a trainer again would be not to obviously like have him friendly with new people, obviously it would be working on his reactivity towards other dogs and potentially people if he does.
[SPEAKER_00]: Does that make sense?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like if you came into work with me, it would be like, hey, let's just, you know, get every dog out that we can and have him pass and see, you know, how he reacts, there's also a chance a dog like this doesn't react at all in my program, which happens.
[SPEAKER_03]: He likes dogs until they snap at him and, you know, and then cycle, okay, you want to start the fight, I'll finish it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, people is the one that, cause he wants to go up to people.
[SPEAKER_03]: But then that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you should.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: That instance, that trust that fear takes over from the PTSD and I never know when that's gonna happen.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that's, I don't think you can train that out.
[SPEAKER_03]: continue to improve it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, because I don't want to I don't want to take you out to people.
[SPEAKER_03]: But it doesn't mean I don't want to make progress on what's affecting him.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, in that situation.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep, exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: And like you said, because of his insecurity now from the PTSD, like he may go up to somebody and be like, hey, what's up?
[SPEAKER_00]: This is cool.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, we can make all the right moves and they're great.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then all of a sudden, he, they move wrong way or they say the wrong thing and then boop, and he goes, shit, you know, I was told people like, you know, again, for me, if I go out right now with my massive, and I see another dog, I turn around.
[SPEAKER_00]: because I know I'm going to be 100% successful.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no ROI, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not scratching my head going, I want to run my productive dog is being a jerk on the, you know, I know, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So I know that I have all the confidence, I have all the control.
[SPEAKER_00]: All I need to do to be successful is turn around.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, again, he's the 1%, so of course, you know, I've made a 13-year career working with some of the most reactive dogs in the world and helping them through that successfully, but my dog, he's not reactive because of something happened, he's not reactive because of this, he's reactive because he was literally born to scare away everything, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So, I just want to be clear on that, you know?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now, I mean, my dog, too, is what they were bred for.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, well, I greatly appreciate your time and then, you know, if you ever, if you think about it sometime later, you're like, well, maybe this training would help or something like it's about a 10 hour drive for us, but it's something that we could we can work out.
[SPEAKER_03]: I love this dog to death, so anything I can do to get better it helping him is definitely what we would would try to do so.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and like I said, I, you know, if the top of my head, I think if you brought him into the facility, the benefits of working through how you handle him, uh, when he reacts would be helpful, but there's also a chance that he doesn't react at all.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, and that is there is that it's 50 50, you know, to be honest, and a lot of times you won't react.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, well, it was a really nice to chat with you and meet with you, and I loved hearing the story of everything and, you know, it's sad, but I think that, you know, as long as you keep them safe around the people that he knows and the people that, you know, you know that he's not going to have an issue with, I think you'll be fine.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you very much again.
[SPEAKER_03]: I really appreciate your insight and your time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no problem.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, good luck and have a good weekend.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_03]: Have a good weekend.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks, bye-bye.