WEBVTT 00:02.355 --> 00:05.197 [SPEAKER_01]: Hey everyone, welcome to the Christian Parenting Podcast. 00:05.297 --> 00:07.638 [SPEAKER_01]: I am so glad that you are here today. 00:07.658 --> 00:09.619 [SPEAKER_01]: We are talking about clothing today. 00:10.080 --> 00:15.443 [SPEAKER_01]: We all get dressed every day, but have you ever thought about what the Bible actually says about clothing? 00:15.963 --> 00:21.766 [SPEAKER_01]: Today, I am joined by author and Bible teacher Caroline Sonders about her new book, it's called But What Do I Wear? 00:22.107 --> 00:23.848 [SPEAKER_01]: The biblical story of clothing. 00:24.308 --> 00:29.051 [SPEAKER_01]: How it helps us think about getting dressed in approximately 17 stories I may regret telling. 00:29.151 --> 00:31.212 [SPEAKER_01]: I just really love the subtitle of that. 00:31.652 --> 00:42.802 [SPEAKER_01]: So Caroline spent an entire year tracing the theme of clothing and covering from Genesis to Revelation, and what she found was so much bigger than a conversation about modesty as we usually think about. 00:43.322 --> 00:57.935 [SPEAKER_01]: So today we talk about what it means that God is the God who covers, what biblical modesty actually means, how to help our kids navigate clothing and brand names without finding their identity in them, and why enjoying beautiful things isn't necessarily superficial. 00:58.575 --> 01:04.759 [SPEAKER_01]: and I especially love where we land, that the most important thing about what we're wearing is that we are clothed in Christ. 01:04.919 --> 01:11.883 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that you're going to love this conversation, especially if you have daughters, but truly it is applicable to any parent. 01:11.923 --> 01:15.085 [SPEAKER_01]: So, I hope that you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. 01:21.968 --> 01:25.229 [SPEAKER_00]: I care, and welcome back to the Christian parenting podcast. 01:25.809 --> 01:29.231 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for having me, and I'm excited to get to chat again. 01:29.791 --> 01:31.331 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think it'll be really fun. 01:31.412 --> 01:34.813 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's just jump right in with the introductions. 01:34.833 --> 01:36.954 [SPEAKER_01]: So tell us if people don't know who you are. 01:37.674 --> 01:42.296 [SPEAKER_01]: About you, about your family, about your work, what you do, all the things that are important to you. 01:42.316 --> 01:42.976 [SPEAKER_00]: We want to know what I'll. 01:43.816 --> 01:48.402 [SPEAKER_00]: Sure, well, my name is Caroline and I am married to my husband Luke. 01:48.422 --> 01:50.124 [SPEAKER_00]: We live in northern Mississippi. 01:50.425 --> 01:52.728 [SPEAKER_00]: He serves as a pastor at a local church here. 01:52.788 --> 01:54.250 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's a huge part of our lives. 01:54.290 --> 01:58.776 [SPEAKER_00]: And we've got three kids, one middle schooler and two elementary age kids. 01:59.016 --> 02:00.938 [SPEAKER_00]: And I just have the best time with them. 02:01.499 --> 02:03.761 [SPEAKER_00]: And I feel like we're in a really, really fun season. 02:03.961 --> 02:07.743 [SPEAKER_00]: And one thing that's really important to me is God's word. 02:07.983 --> 02:10.845 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not just saying that to be a good Christian girl. 02:11.045 --> 02:13.967 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think there's a time I would have just said that to be a good Christian girl. 02:14.367 --> 02:16.149 [SPEAKER_00]: But it's actually true for me now. 02:16.849 --> 02:18.951 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm so grateful so God's word means a lot to me. 02:19.191 --> 02:40.090 [SPEAKER_00]: I have this practice of tracing a theme through the Bible every year and kind of seeing how it develops and so I'm deep in that always and sometimes that ends up being something I'm able to write about and share with people in a particular way and so it's been really cool for that to get to overflow into some books and sometimes I'm traveling to teach and so I just 02:40.710 --> 02:45.157 [SPEAKER_00]: I could just have such a fun job of being able to write and to be able to teach. 02:45.317 --> 02:47.200 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's pretty part-time work. 02:47.240 --> 02:51.426 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I'm primarily doing stuff with my kids and picking up this house. 02:51.446 --> 02:52.667 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, what is wrong with my house? 02:52.708 --> 02:53.569 [SPEAKER_00]: And why is it always messy? 02:53.629 --> 02:54.450 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm doing that a lot. 02:54.670 --> 02:56.032 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's not just you. 02:57.173 --> 02:59.475 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I'm like, this is impossible. 02:59.575 --> 03:06.439 [SPEAKER_00]: So sometimes I get a little ecclesiasties, I'm meaningless, I mean, less everything is meaningless about my house, but we keep going. 03:06.640 --> 03:12.023 [SPEAKER_00]: I am trying to subdue the earth and have dominion in my home and homeschooling my kids and enjoying them. 03:12.243 --> 03:14.905 [SPEAKER_00]: And so that's pretty much what's going on with me. 03:15.185 --> 03:16.086 [SPEAKER_01]: Love that you said that. 03:16.186 --> 03:19.368 [SPEAKER_01]: I was literally, yesterday was my kids for stay back at school. 03:19.608 --> 03:21.029 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was at lunch with a girlfriend. 03:21.049 --> 03:22.490 [SPEAKER_01]: We always got to lunch to kind of. 03:23.071 --> 03:24.771 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, mark the day, if you will. 03:25.252 --> 03:28.613 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm right and more and all at the same time, because she's asking me to do it once. 03:28.913 --> 03:29.113 [SPEAKER_01]: Sure. 03:29.133 --> 03:32.334 [SPEAKER_01]: But we were talking about how is our house so messy? 03:32.354 --> 03:33.414 [SPEAKER_01]: Like our kids are old. 03:33.834 --> 03:38.415 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I don't understand why, like it's still the way it is. 03:38.975 --> 03:41.376 [SPEAKER_01]: And neither do she, I guess, and neither do you. 03:41.516 --> 03:43.277 [SPEAKER_01]: So if you're feeling genuinely, you want to do it. 03:43.317 --> 03:44.517 [SPEAKER_01]: And you don't really can't believe it. 03:44.557 --> 03:45.817 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's the same thing with laundry. 03:45.837 --> 03:47.838 [SPEAKER_00]: You're like, it's impossible that there's still more. 03:48.178 --> 03:50.018 [SPEAKER_01]: But there is, there just is. 04:03.597 --> 04:04.538 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, by that part. 04:04.998 --> 04:08.120 [SPEAKER_01]: I also don't believe that there just still won't be a lot. 04:08.940 --> 04:09.200 [SPEAKER_01]: Right. 04:10.121 --> 04:13.203 [SPEAKER_00]: Some of them just just life. 04:13.643 --> 04:14.503 [SPEAKER_00]: It's just life. 04:14.844 --> 04:15.904 [SPEAKER_00]: No matter how many people. 04:16.324 --> 04:16.585 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 04:17.165 --> 04:20.667 [SPEAKER_01]: And on another side now, I would like you to know that I live in Minnesota. 04:21.407 --> 04:23.068 [SPEAKER_01]: We are very, I'm born and raised here. 04:23.108 --> 04:27.571 [SPEAKER_01]: My kids born and raised here, but my daughter did go to school today in a Mississippi state shirt. 04:27.911 --> 04:30.112 [SPEAKER_00]: because she loves to be state. 04:30.552 --> 04:32.233 [SPEAKER_00]: She loves Mississippi state. 04:32.293 --> 04:33.553 [SPEAKER_00]: Like how did that happen? 04:33.873 --> 04:34.334 [SPEAKER_00]: That's amazing. 04:34.374 --> 04:36.774 [SPEAKER_01]: We have some friends and family in New Orleans. 04:36.835 --> 04:39.335 [SPEAKER_01]: So then they are originally from Mississippi. 04:39.375 --> 04:42.217 [SPEAKER_01]: So she has adopted that as her school. 04:42.737 --> 04:43.697 [SPEAKER_00]: It's very random. 04:44.237 --> 04:44.738 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 04:45.138 --> 04:49.660 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, so my family growing up, they were hardcore Ole Miss people. 04:49.720 --> 04:51.680 [SPEAKER_00]: This is the rival of Mississippi state. 04:51.800 --> 04:55.842 [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't think I'm publicly allowed to to be excited to do that. 04:56.042 --> 04:59.125 [SPEAKER_00]: Right, but I have gotten to spend a little bit of time at Starkville. 04:59.145 --> 05:00.526 [SPEAKER_00]: They have great restaurants. 05:00.606 --> 05:01.567 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a great school. 05:01.747 --> 05:03.189 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, she should just come on down. 05:03.669 --> 05:05.611 [SPEAKER_00]: We'll be ready for her when it's time for college. 05:06.191 --> 05:06.872 [SPEAKER_00]: I will let you know. 05:06.892 --> 05:09.654 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so I'll send her your way. 05:10.655 --> 05:15.440 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I guess that actually is a really good transition to talk about what she was wearing to school today because we're talking about clothing. 05:16.032 --> 05:16.372 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right. 05:16.833 --> 05:18.774 [SPEAKER_01]: So, and even mean to do that, but here we are. 05:19.034 --> 05:23.858 [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot that we could talk about when it comes to clothing and this concept of covering. 05:23.898 --> 05:35.907 [SPEAKER_01]: And we're kind of doing a little bit differently, because kind of like you said in your intro, you every year, study scripture through a topic and you spent a lot of time studying clothing through the lens of scripture. 05:36.308 --> 05:41.452 [SPEAKER_01]: So first kind of tell us a little bit about what that looks like, how does one actually do that? 05:41.472 --> 05:43.033 [SPEAKER_01]: Cause this is not your first top of all study. 05:43.193 --> 05:43.693 [SPEAKER_01]: Right. 05:43.713 --> 05:50.216 [SPEAKER_01]: We've had you on the podcast talk about home and you've done this every year personally and then sometimes like you said it turns into writing. 05:50.236 --> 05:56.058 [SPEAKER_01]: So tell us a little bit about your approach like how you do this personally and then how we get in our hands. 05:56.879 --> 05:59.580 [SPEAKER_00]: So this kind of study is called biblical theology. 05:59.620 --> 06:07.543 [SPEAKER_00]: It's viewing the Bible is one big story and so the big story the Bible is called them that in narrative and there are lots of different themes. 06:08.083 --> 06:13.506 [SPEAKER_00]: that you can pull through the loom of the metinere and if then you see how they develop over the course of scripture. 06:13.686 --> 06:21.749 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's really cool because the Bible is one big story that it's full of all these little stories and the little story tells about the big story and the big story tells us about the little stories. 06:22.550 --> 06:25.311 [SPEAKER_00]: And it is so rich and so beautiful. 06:25.331 --> 06:27.772 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think I can study the Bible in this way forever. 06:27.812 --> 06:29.833 [SPEAKER_00]: And my first figured out this was a thing. 06:30.033 --> 06:33.955 [SPEAKER_00]: This would have been 11, 12 years ago, and I studied the theme of light. 06:34.575 --> 06:40.964 [SPEAKER_00]: And I noticed it at the beginning and I was pretty sure it was something happened with light at the end and then I knew Jesus caught himself a light of the world. 06:41.165 --> 06:48.876 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I began to read through the Bible and grabbing anything it said about light and seeing how that developed over the plot line. 06:49.597 --> 06:58.186 [SPEAKER_00]: it was so powerful and so beautiful and helped me view the Bible as literature and pay attention to all these different things that maybe I went into pay attention to. 06:58.546 --> 07:02.951 [SPEAKER_00]: So I got kind of addicted to this and I do it in a really in depth way. 07:03.011 --> 07:09.377 [SPEAKER_00]: Like most of the time I'm actually reading through the whole Bible, but that's not how you have to do it if you have a familiarity with 07:10.038 --> 07:11.740 [SPEAKER_00]: the big story of the Bible. 07:12.160 --> 07:24.170 [SPEAKER_00]: Then a lot of times you can drop down at important moments in the big story and pay attention to that theme and what's happening and you can you can glean the story and all of the story is pointing to Jesus. 07:24.190 --> 07:30.175 [SPEAKER_00]: He's like the big interpreted key and so when you get to him that's where you really got to start paying attention. 07:30.195 --> 07:36.160 [SPEAKER_00]: Of course it helps shine the light on some of the things maybe the Old Testament and helps you understand the things going forward. 07:38.562 --> 07:44.005 [SPEAKER_00]: one of the themes that had been in the back of my mind for a long time was this idea of covering slash clothing. 07:44.866 --> 07:49.988 [SPEAKER_00]: Because I had heard plenty of teaching about clothing, but it was really single-minded. 07:50.008 --> 07:52.590 [SPEAKER_00]: It was really just about modesty and it was about covering up. 07:52.830 --> 07:58.093 [SPEAKER_00]: And I was just curious like is that the message of the Bible like is that just part of the message? 07:58.153 --> 07:59.534 [SPEAKER_00]: What are we talking about here? 07:59.634 --> 08:01.215 [SPEAKER_00]: What does the Bible really say about clothing? 08:01.875 --> 08:26.928 [SPEAKER_00]: And so finally I was able to set aside a year was 22 and I started studying covering slash clothing and I was full of word I could not believe all that I was discovering and I know that you and I talked about home before that was a really personal theme, you know, some of the themes and light is beautiful, but it's not necessarily that personal, but home got very personal and clothing slash covering was the same way. 08:27.828 --> 08:33.210 [SPEAKER_00]: I felt like there was something in me that was longing to hear the story in this particular way. 08:33.290 --> 08:40.152 [SPEAKER_00]: And so when the story, not just for that year of studying covering, but when it kept coming up, especially as I was getting dressed. 08:41.052 --> 08:43.993 [SPEAKER_00]: And the Holy Spirit would call particular elements of the story to mine. 08:44.193 --> 08:45.954 [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, there is more here. 08:46.134 --> 08:53.336 [SPEAKER_00]: I want to keep looking at this and I want to figure out not just what the story says, but how the story impacts my story. 08:56.898 --> 08:58.798 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, that's so cool. 08:58.878 --> 08:59.779 [SPEAKER_01]: I love that you do this. 08:59.859 --> 09:01.499 [SPEAKER_01]: I love studying the Bible in that way. 09:01.539 --> 09:08.701 [SPEAKER_01]: And I love that you break it down so simply because you go all in from Genesis to Revelation and study the whole book and then you organize it off. 09:08.761 --> 09:09.801 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's incredible. 09:10.001 --> 09:14.042 [SPEAKER_01]: But tell us about, so you do, you trace clothing from Genesis to Revelation. 09:14.262 --> 09:19.383 [SPEAKER_01]: Can you give us like a big picture, biblical story of clothing and covering? 09:19.403 --> 09:21.124 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, what are, I know that's a lot. 09:21.244 --> 09:25.525 [SPEAKER_01]: But like, what are maybe some key themes that you found when you started digging into scripture? 09:25.545 --> 09:26.485 [SPEAKER_01]: That excited you. 09:27.045 --> 09:51.386 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we see something really important right from the beginning that creates a lens first of you other parts of the Bible and a lot of your listeners are going to be familiar with this and some may not be but it would be very easy to go read about it Genesis 1 through 3 and so when you're reading the very beginning you see that God creates people and these people are naked these people are not wearing any clothes but Genesis 2 in saying that the man is wife or naked and unshaked. 09:51.826 --> 10:02.020 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, unashamed is not a word that we happen to connect with being naked, but that is what it says in Genesis 2, but of course it doesn't stay this way, the story continues. 10:02.560 --> 10:07.647 [SPEAKER_00]: And we see that the serpent approaches E, and he's very alluring, and one of the things he says, 10:08.528 --> 10:15.190 [SPEAKER_00]: He's making her believe that her eyes will be uncovered if she listens to him rather than listens to the Lord. 10:15.370 --> 10:20.531 [SPEAKER_00]: And so this idea of her eyes being uncovered felt very intriguing to her. 10:21.192 --> 10:25.493 [SPEAKER_00]: And so she listens to the surface rather than to the Lord and Adam too. 10:26.213 --> 10:38.504 [SPEAKER_00]: And the moment that they eat of this fruit and step outside of God's design, they find this uncovering that had been seen, had been pitched to be a good thing, was actually a very exposing thing. 10:38.804 --> 10:42.267 [SPEAKER_00]: And so immediately they realize that they are naked at that point. 10:42.527 --> 10:52.473 [SPEAKER_00]: they are deeply ashamed, and so they're trying to create clothing for themselves, they famously use fig leaves, and we know leaves are not going to make good clothes none of it. 10:52.673 --> 10:54.614 [SPEAKER_00]: Nobody's going to old Navy and being light. 10:54.634 --> 10:55.595 [SPEAKER_00]: Did you see that shirt? 10:55.635 --> 10:58.096 [SPEAKER_00]: It's made the leaves and it's super quality. 10:58.416 --> 10:59.197 [SPEAKER_00]: It's on all the runway. 10:59.217 --> 10:59.677 [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly. 11:00.097 --> 11:01.198 [SPEAKER_00]: It's on all the runway. 11:01.238 --> 11:03.419 [SPEAKER_00]: We know leaves dry out and they crumble. 11:03.659 --> 11:05.060 [SPEAKER_00]: This is not sufficient clothing. 11:05.240 --> 11:07.822 [SPEAKER_00]: And so we see something about God right from the beginning because 11:10.423 --> 11:15.085 [SPEAKER_00]: to see these naked and ashamed people and say, I told you, I'm not to do that. 11:15.525 --> 11:16.966 [SPEAKER_00]: And you're gonna have to figure this out. 11:17.446 --> 11:22.508 [SPEAKER_00]: And that same mentality, if anybody has ever said to young lady, you need to go change. 11:22.528 --> 11:24.929 [SPEAKER_00]: Or that kind of tone. 11:25.690 --> 11:28.131 [SPEAKER_00]: And of course there are consequences for their sin. 11:28.331 --> 11:30.291 [SPEAKER_00]: God takes sin extremely seriously. 11:30.331 --> 11:31.412 [SPEAKER_00]: So there are consequences. 11:31.792 --> 11:33.373 [SPEAKER_00]: But there's also a covering. 11:33.693 --> 11:35.894 [SPEAKER_00]: There's consequences and a covering. 11:36.095 --> 11:38.336 [SPEAKER_00]: And the covering is very meaningful in itself. 11:39.116 --> 11:41.678 [SPEAKER_00]: It says that he closed them with the skin of an animal. 11:42.418 --> 11:50.422 [SPEAKER_00]: And that means that in a world where nothing had ever died before, God took one of the animals that he had created and that Adam had named. 11:50.843 --> 11:53.724 [SPEAKER_00]: We saw him doing that and Genesis 1 and 2. 11:54.124 --> 11:58.367 [SPEAKER_00]: He takes one of these animals and kills this animal so that they can be clothed. 11:58.847 --> 12:02.009 [SPEAKER_00]: in these animal skins, a more sufficient covering. 12:02.629 --> 12:08.292 [SPEAKER_00]: And so there's this wady lesson that for sinners to be covered, death must occur. 12:08.433 --> 12:13.635 [SPEAKER_00]: And I have wondered if Adam and Eve think about that every time they got dressed. 12:14.216 --> 12:26.543 [SPEAKER_00]: If that was the message for them of getting up and putting on their clothes, and this creates a lens for us to view the rest of the Bible because we see ourselves as the naked and ashamed. 12:27.243 --> 12:36.154 [SPEAKER_00]: And even when people in the Bible literally have closed on, most of the time they are spiritually naked and ashamed, and we begin to see God as the God who covers. 12:36.835 --> 12:45.104 [SPEAKER_00]: And then, of course, this all culminates in the person of Jesus who is naked on the cross, which is a detail that we often forget. 12:45.865 --> 12:50.807 [SPEAKER_00]: but he was exposed so that we might be clothed in his righteousness. 12:51.167 --> 12:55.249 [SPEAKER_00]: So that we might be clothed in his strength and in his dignity and in his wisdom. 12:55.569 --> 12:59.991 [SPEAKER_00]: And so this is why the New Testament talks about how believers are clothed in Christ. 13:00.793 --> 13:07.615 [SPEAKER_00]: And so all of this, I mean, there's a million more things that we could say, but all of this is a really powerful story of clothing. 13:07.755 --> 13:17.459 [SPEAKER_00]: We have an opportunity to root ourselves in when we get dressed, and I believe when we really internalize the story, it does affect the way that we get dressed. 13:17.819 --> 13:21.260 [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes we might come at it, we try to fix the way people look on the outside. 13:21.940 --> 13:33.829 [SPEAKER_00]: But a lot of times, if we are able to entrust to them, a story that they can, they can really consume their inside, that is going to naturally overflow and it does impact the way we get dressed. 13:33.849 --> 13:36.511 [SPEAKER_00]: So in my book that I wrote, but what do I wear? 13:36.531 --> 13:37.932 [SPEAKER_00]: I am trying to do that. 13:38.032 --> 13:40.894 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm trying to tell the big story of the Bible through this lens of clothing. 13:41.094 --> 13:47.559 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm trying to help us think biblically about what that means for our own stories and these moments when we get dressed. 13:48.093 --> 14:08.343 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, okay, let's talk a little bit more about high concept high level concept things and then move into that practical piece because I want to get there too, but I do I love that I just love the way you're setting this, but I think when people hear what do I wear they're going to be like I'm going to get an instruction manual with what I can wear that will be modest and acceptable to the Lord. 14:08.903 --> 14:13.786 [SPEAKER_01]: based on what the Bible says, and that's not really what's happening here, right? 14:13.826 --> 14:23.010 [SPEAKER_01]: I think a lot of us who grew up in Purity Culture like Modesty was presented as covering our bodies so that we wouldn't make men's tumble if you're a girl. 14:23.191 --> 14:25.192 [SPEAKER_00]: That's kind of what was taught. 14:25.412 --> 14:35.337 [SPEAKER_01]: And there's some pushback on that, but then at the same time, there is, you know, we are called as Christians to wisdom and to holiness and to care for our bodies and to Modesty, but like, 14:37.738 --> 14:44.581 [SPEAKER_01]: just your skirt length or your neckline or how much skin is showing what is biblical modesty actually. 14:45.201 --> 14:46.562 [SPEAKER_00]: This is such a good question. 14:46.642 --> 14:48.643 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's something that we have to think about. 14:49.243 --> 14:54.906 [SPEAKER_00]: And to your point, staff, when I grew up, I received a lot of that teaching as well. 14:55.626 --> 15:11.885 [SPEAKER_00]: And then when I became like the grown-up who was sort of in charge of other people and looked too for wisdom, I just abandoned the clothing conversation altogether because I knew that what I was handed wasn't quite right, but I knew that it still mattered somehow, but I wasn't sure how and I just didn't that know how to talk about. 15:12.506 --> 15:28.227 [SPEAKER_00]: So anyone who feels confused by this topic, I understand what that is like, this is confusing and it requires a lot of wisdom and we are dying for the Bible to just be like, here's your uniform where this and then you don't have to think about it, but God does not give us that. 15:29.008 --> 15:31.250 [SPEAKER_00]: and the verses in the Bible about modesty. 15:31.430 --> 15:41.920 [SPEAKER_00]: We have often just not looked at them that closely and assumed that it was about not wanting bodies, but the modesty verses for the most part are really about wanting. 15:42.160 --> 15:42.440 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, 15:43.508 --> 15:49.534 [SPEAKER_00]: And so the Bible does call us to modesty, but some of those overt verses are about showing off your wealth. 15:49.554 --> 15:58.242 [SPEAKER_00]: So if you have covered up your body parts, but you are being, you are drawing a tension to how expensively you dress or you're trying to show that off, that's not modesty either. 15:59.143 --> 16:04.310 [SPEAKER_00]: But of course we do believe that biblical modesty in the way our culture understands it. 16:04.990 --> 16:06.112 [SPEAKER_00]: We know that matters too. 16:06.152 --> 16:14.022 [SPEAKER_00]: We have all seen a picture of somebody on Instagram wearing something scandalous and then the caption of the Bible verse and every single person in the world is like, I don't know. 16:14.082 --> 16:15.083 [SPEAKER_00]: This doesn't match. 16:15.263 --> 16:17.104 [SPEAKER_01]: There's gotta be a middle ground here. 16:17.124 --> 16:18.545 [SPEAKER_00]: That can't be right. 16:18.865 --> 16:23.927 [SPEAKER_00]: And so, of course, it matters because the Bible talks about not even having a hint of sexual immorality. 16:24.107 --> 16:26.968 [SPEAKER_00]: And the way we live our lives tells the story about God. 16:26.988 --> 16:29.610 [SPEAKER_00]: So, we want to proclaim the right thing. 16:29.650 --> 16:31.190 [SPEAKER_00]: So, I think that it matters. 16:31.851 --> 16:36.093 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that modesty in those sense that we understand it from our culture matters. 16:36.373 --> 16:38.794 [SPEAKER_00]: And in the sense the Bible talks about it with wealth matters. 16:38.854 --> 16:40.535 [SPEAKER_00]: Whatever you're wanting to flaunt. 16:41.095 --> 16:48.243 [SPEAKER_00]: is going to reveal something about you and God is probably going to be calling you to repentance and to holiness. 16:48.343 --> 16:51.346 [SPEAKER_00]: And He is the God who covers and He will help you in those moments. 16:51.527 --> 16:54.210 [SPEAKER_00]: But goodness, it really doesn't come in the form of legalism. 16:54.250 --> 16:56.312 [SPEAKER_00]: Like we really do not get lists. 16:56.893 --> 16:59.095 [SPEAKER_00]: Instead, we walk by the spirit. 16:59.335 --> 17:01.358 [SPEAKER_00]: And that is a little bit. 17:01.918 --> 17:02.839 [SPEAKER_00]: more confusing, isn't it? 17:04.099 --> 17:05.780 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's a lot more gray. 17:06.181 --> 17:13.645 [SPEAKER_01]: Like it would be so much easier if the world is black and white, but it's pretty gray because everyone has different convictions, and right? 17:14.185 --> 17:22.911 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's stronger than especially when we see them all out there on social media, you know, and so it is very, it's a lot to process where you do really have to lean on the Holy Spirit. 17:23.658 --> 17:33.885 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and one of the things I talk about a little bit in the book is this idea of appropriateness because there are mid-versus in the Bible about dressing appropriately, and that might be more of what we're talking about when we think about cultural honesty. 17:34.085 --> 17:37.007 [SPEAKER_00]: But appropriateness is a moving target, right? 17:37.048 --> 17:40.030 [SPEAKER_00]: Like when I grew up going to church, you would never wear jeans. 17:40.510 --> 17:42.872 [SPEAKER_00]: That would have been considered disrespectful. 17:43.432 --> 17:47.974 [SPEAKER_00]: but at the church where I'm at right now, that's not disrespectful at all, it's the norm. 17:48.454 --> 17:53.956 [SPEAKER_00]: So appropriateness is a moving target and anybody who's gone into different cultures knows that. 17:54.136 --> 18:03.320 [SPEAKER_00]: And so when we take something cultural, cultural, and try to make it biblical, we're doing the same thing he did when she added to God's words in the garden. 18:03.902 --> 18:16.386 [SPEAKER_00]: We have to be really careful to know what the Bible says, but it's also okay to train up our kids and ourselves to gain literacy about what's appropriate and different places and what's not. 18:16.466 --> 18:20.948 [SPEAKER_00]: You will will roller skates if you go work at Sonic, but you're not going to wear roller skates. 18:21.528 --> 18:27.751 [SPEAKER_00]: to school, right, just even something as ridiculous as that, a kid can understand, okay, that works here, but that doesn't work here. 18:28.051 --> 18:31.153 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I can wear this on our beach vacation, but I cannot wear this to church. 18:31.493 --> 18:34.735 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I can wear this when I'm taking a nap at home, but I cannot wear this to school. 18:35.035 --> 18:47.061 [SPEAKER_00]: There's so many different ways that we can learn about our appropriateness, and I think that's really valuable too, and maybe something we haven't thought a lot about, because we just make it also spiritual and about honesty. 18:47.201 --> 18:49.663 [SPEAKER_00]: And some of it's just like, we got to learn how to just 18:50.563 --> 18:52.364 [SPEAKER_00]: interpret cultural norms. 18:52.924 --> 19:01.267 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's a really good way to frame it and I think it is upgrading the appropriateness from the concept of biblical monastic, which I think. 19:02.107 --> 19:16.473 [SPEAKER_01]: At least where I live in 2026, I think that concept of biblical monasticity, the flaunting well, is equally as important as addressing appropriately like we are raising kids in a culture that really values appearance. 19:17.013 --> 19:32.087 [SPEAKER_01]: and really values brand names like my daughter is a dancer and we she's got her new team and we had our you know first mom gathering and we always have a team a peril item or water bottle or something that all the girls get is like their little gift. 19:32.977 --> 19:57.887 [SPEAKER_01]: And the consensus of these girls who are 10 and 11 years old was, if we're going to get a sweatshirt, it should either be Lulu Lemon or not be Lulu Lemon, but we don't want fake Lulu Lemon like that I knew I knew that we were going to say I knew that we can't be fake it is either real or it is just like it based a crew neck, but we are not doing the fake like that is so important to them. 19:58.747 --> 20:03.931 [SPEAKER_01]: And you're kind of like, wow, we're all we're laughing at it, but we're also like, how did we get here? 20:04.352 --> 20:06.733 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, how do I totally feel you? 20:06.834 --> 20:07.574 [SPEAKER_00]: That is so true. 20:07.614 --> 20:08.675 [SPEAKER_00]: I just knew in my heart. 20:08.715 --> 20:09.816 [SPEAKER_00]: That's what I'm going to say. 20:10.837 --> 20:14.480 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the girls in Mississippi are thinking the same things. 20:14.600 --> 20:16.581 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, that's just that it's just that right. 20:16.601 --> 20:17.482 [SPEAKER_00]: That is where we're at. 20:17.562 --> 20:18.303 [SPEAKER_00]: That's where we're at. 20:19.303 --> 20:22.365 [SPEAKER_01]: So how do you think parents can help, especially our girls? 20:22.826 --> 20:28.409 [SPEAKER_01]: I do have two boys and then a girl and I can assure you the boys do not care as much. 20:28.510 --> 20:32.292 [SPEAKER_01]: That's not for all boys, but I'm gonna make a blanket statement. 20:32.372 --> 20:41.959 [SPEAKER_01]: So especially our daughters, like, how do we help them say, it's okay to enjoy beauty and fashion and makeup and clothing, and all those things are really fun, but it's not your identity. 20:42.079 --> 20:43.820 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not the biggest thing to value. 20:43.840 --> 20:47.943 [SPEAKER_01]: Like how do we walk through that in the world of fake versus real Lula? 20:48.803 --> 21:05.639 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my goodness, I feel like the story of the Bible has so much to say this because one of the things that surprised me, and I was setting the story, I came in with an assumption that the Bible was going to tell me two things, it was going to tell me to cover up and it was going to tell me to care less, you know that getting dressed that superficial and caring about it, that's superficial. 21:06.380 --> 21:17.668 [SPEAKER_00]: That's kind of what I expected, but there are so many stories of even clothing extravagance, like if you think about the story of the prodigal son, he is humiliated, right? 21:17.708 --> 21:18.548 [SPEAKER_00]: He's disgusting. 21:18.589 --> 21:23.212 [SPEAKER_00]: He comes home and his greatest hope is that his father will just treat him as a servant. 21:23.572 --> 21:24.993 [SPEAKER_00]: But of course, a father doesn't do that. 21:25.033 --> 21:30.237 [SPEAKER_00]: He runs to him and he offers him the best rogue. 21:30.957 --> 21:42.074 [SPEAKER_00]: and he puts a ring on his finger like he is clothing him in the best thing which I learned through studying this that the best robe was probably a robe from the father's own closet, the patriarch's robe. 21:42.434 --> 21:45.539 [SPEAKER_00]: So the sun is clothed extravagantly. 21:46.480 --> 21:58.943 [SPEAKER_00]: And that doesn't, that's not why since for us to buy whatever we want to buy, but it is this reminder of clothing someone beautifully is part of God's story, a bride, a bride of Christ at the end of the story, the church. 21:59.003 --> 22:01.103 [SPEAKER_00]: She is a raid in God's glory. 22:01.463 --> 22:02.424 [SPEAKER_00]: She is beautiful. 22:02.464 --> 22:03.644 [SPEAKER_00]: She is clothed so beautifully. 22:03.944 --> 22:07.885 [SPEAKER_00]: So when we enjoy beautiful clothing, it can point us to that. 22:08.606 --> 22:09.507 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's important. 22:09.527 --> 22:13.409 [SPEAKER_00]: I remember when my daughter turned one, there was this little dress. 22:13.469 --> 22:17.712 [SPEAKER_00]: I really wanted to buy her and I was trying, you know, it's like a little too expensive. 22:17.732 --> 22:23.396 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like a one year old dress like that doesn't that is not practical at all the spend money on a one year old dress, but there's a cute. 22:24.397 --> 22:25.098 [SPEAKER_00]: It's still okay. 22:25.118 --> 22:26.400 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I couldn't stop thinking about it. 22:26.880 --> 22:29.383 [SPEAKER_00]: And then eventually my husband was like, just get it. 22:29.624 --> 22:30.605 [SPEAKER_00]: Just get it for her. 22:30.705 --> 22:31.406 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I got it. 22:31.426 --> 22:32.027 [SPEAKER_00]: We put her in it. 22:32.147 --> 22:34.870 [SPEAKER_00]: And it was genuinely, it was not extravagance. 22:35.011 --> 22:36.152 [SPEAKER_00]: It was like, love. 22:36.372 --> 22:38.075 [SPEAKER_00]: I just was like, I love you. 22:38.395 --> 22:39.536 [SPEAKER_00]: You are so beautiful. 22:39.837 --> 22:41.719 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think it's a way that even we as 22:42.540 --> 23:08.304 [SPEAKER_00]: just parents or whatever can care for our kids and of course there's a line because it's not like I need to buy every beautiful thing I ever see to close my daughter but in that moment that was an act of love and we see that same principle happening in God's work so if you have something beautiful that you love to wear maybe that's not superficial maybe that's just an opportunity for you to enjoy the God who covers because he doesn't clothe us in a beautiful way you know 23:12.445 --> 23:13.526 [SPEAKER_00]: God could have done that. 23:13.847 --> 23:18.992 [SPEAKER_00]: He could have been like, okay, Clothed in Christ is everyone's now in the same great job, so, but it is not like that. 23:19.172 --> 23:21.935 [SPEAKER_00]: Clothed in Christ is just like, beautiful, adorning. 23:22.355 --> 23:23.196 [SPEAKER_00]: It is so beautiful. 23:23.236 --> 23:27.020 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think, I think that's something we don't think about a lot, but it is really important. 23:27.260 --> 23:28.902 [SPEAKER_00]: We can encourage our daughters with that. 23:29.022 --> 23:29.362 [SPEAKER_00]: But, 23:30.283 --> 23:48.286 [SPEAKER_00]: The Holy Spirit is going to guide us as moms and guide our girls, if they are Christians, to be able to discern those little things that may be only you and the Lord can see happening inside your heart, because are they going to be times when clothes are outsized in their importance in your life? 23:48.646 --> 23:50.027 [SPEAKER_00]: you know, we consider them to important. 23:50.047 --> 23:54.289 [SPEAKER_00]: We're trying to ask the close to prove that we are that we belong. 23:54.669 --> 23:59.231 [SPEAKER_00]: That's why we all need the Lulu sweatshirt because how else are we going to show that we belong with these people? 23:59.651 --> 24:03.633 [SPEAKER_00]: Or maybe we're going to wear combat because we're going to show the world that we're tough. 24:03.973 --> 24:07.115 [SPEAKER_00]: Or maybe we're going to wear a graphic tee to show the world that we're cool and laid back. 24:07.175 --> 24:12.277 [SPEAKER_00]: Or whatever message you're wanting to communicate to me, the Christian is free from that. 24:12.637 --> 24:17.378 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, you can still enjoy those things, but the clothes don't have to proclaim your identity. 24:17.818 --> 24:22.659 [SPEAKER_00]: They get you just to be shirts and pants and shoes, and it becomes a lot less serious. 24:22.679 --> 24:24.640 [SPEAKER_00]: Your identity is anchored in price. 24:25.080 --> 24:26.560 [SPEAKER_00]: So, enjoy the beautiful thing. 24:26.940 --> 24:33.882 [SPEAKER_00]: We don't have to ask it to tell the world who you are, who you are is someone who is clothed in Christ. 24:34.522 --> 24:37.682 [SPEAKER_00]: And so, I just think that makes a lot of things a lot less serious. 24:37.722 --> 24:40.403 [SPEAKER_00]: And so, you could even wear, you could even wear, fake, and look. 24:41.263 --> 24:42.083 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, even could. 24:42.404 --> 24:43.024 [SPEAKER_00]: So I love that. 24:43.524 --> 24:43.784 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 24:44.304 --> 24:54.588 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, and even in Matthew six, when the scripture is talking about the Lord taking care of us, he's comparing what we were to flowers, not to, like, again, the same gray jumpsuits were green leaves. 24:54.648 --> 25:00.690 [SPEAKER_01]: It is flowers, they're different colors, and they're beautiful, and some of your kids, or some of us may just lean into that more. 25:00.710 --> 25:05.612 [SPEAKER_01]: Some people might get really excited about being creative, because God made them, like, it's 25:05.972 --> 25:12.237 [SPEAKER_01]: type B creative artistic person and so dressing themselves can be a way to praise God in honor God with how he helped them. 25:12.937 --> 25:17.481 [SPEAKER_01]: And then some people just, my son wants to wear a basic t-shirt every day. 25:18.061 --> 25:20.503 [SPEAKER_01]: And he just he likes the uniformity of that. 25:21.083 --> 25:21.744 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's great. 25:22.264 --> 25:22.765 [SPEAKER_01]: I love that. 25:23.704 --> 25:24.245 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know. 25:24.365 --> 25:25.126 [SPEAKER_00]: I like that too. 25:25.567 --> 25:36.283 [SPEAKER_00]: Actually, I talk about this a little bit in the book, but in Eden, there's this idea of Adam and Eve are already dressed to do their wonderful work of subduing here at the having dominion being fruitful multiply. 25:36.303 --> 25:39.527 [SPEAKER_00]: They have this job to do and even though they don't have any clothes on there totally. 25:40.413 --> 25:40.753 [SPEAKER_00]: covered. 25:40.773 --> 25:41.734 [SPEAKER_00]: They're ready to work. 25:41.774 --> 25:43.115 [SPEAKER_00]: They don't have to go get their work close. 25:43.135 --> 25:43.775 [SPEAKER_00]: They're ready to go. 25:43.955 --> 25:50.499 [SPEAKER_00]: And there's something in Eden about this covering seemed was so simple and also so beautiful. 25:50.899 --> 25:53.041 [SPEAKER_00]: And I feel like we're all coming at different angles about. 25:53.061 --> 25:54.882 [SPEAKER_00]: Some of us are just craving this simplicity. 25:55.322 --> 25:56.983 [SPEAKER_00]: Some of us are just craving the beauty. 25:57.183 --> 26:03.147 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that that is a way of like Luke Bauer has a song where the lyrics says Eden and our bones. 26:03.747 --> 26:05.088 [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like that is like 26:08.650 --> 26:14.432 [SPEAKER_00]: But we're also longing for it to be beautiful, and we're trying so desperately to make that happen, but really we need to look to the garden covers. 26:14.932 --> 26:16.032 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I love that. 26:16.432 --> 26:23.955 [SPEAKER_01]: I want to kind of end by talking about kind of, we've kind of referenced it a little bit, but this concept of getting dressed as an act of worship. 26:24.035 --> 26:35.598 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, how can we be focusing on the Lord and his story for us and who just his story when it's Tuesday, morning, and we're like, I actually don't have anything to wear. 26:36.159 --> 26:36.919 [SPEAKER_01]: I keep my closet. 26:37.499 --> 26:39.881 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I come, we all know those moments. 26:40.241 --> 26:46.165 [SPEAKER_00]: In fact, I talked recently in an event and I said, raise your hand if you have a chair somewhere that's covered in clothes that you just said and not to wear. 26:46.485 --> 26:50.808 [SPEAKER_00]: And half the rooms like me, so we all know those moments. 26:51.209 --> 26:52.189 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I have two thoughts. 26:52.489 --> 26:59.834 [SPEAKER_00]: One, when you have a clothing crisis and maybe crisis is too dramatic of a word, but you know, there's a clothing irritation. 27:00.875 --> 27:04.558 [SPEAKER_00]: this isn't opportunity to anchor yourself in God's story. 27:05.318 --> 27:15.606 [SPEAKER_00]: So one of the things, for example, like if I have a day where I'm trying on multiple outfits and usually by the time I get to outfit four, that's when I'm like unwell and I'm losing my mind and I want to scream at everybody. 27:16.486 --> 27:18.227 [SPEAKER_00]: It's always right before I can invent too. 27:19.160 --> 27:20.701 [SPEAKER_00]: like it's never when you're going to grocery store. 27:21.582 --> 27:22.542 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not the grocery store. 27:22.562 --> 27:23.063 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, exactly. 27:23.083 --> 27:25.424 [SPEAKER_00]: We have to be somewhere and people are going to look at us and blah, blah, blah. 27:25.844 --> 27:31.989 [SPEAKER_00]: And I have a little practice where I'm like, okay, Caroline, the time is up and you've got to go. 27:32.729 --> 27:35.751 [SPEAKER_00]: And this outfit might be so dumb and you really hate it. 27:36.271 --> 27:38.833 [SPEAKER_00]: But at the end of the day, you are clothed in Christ. 27:39.173 --> 27:42.656 [SPEAKER_00]: You're a clothed in Christ, even if you're off in a really stupid, even if it doesn't fit right, 27:45.277 --> 27:52.103 [SPEAKER_00]: The cultural rules of this setting you're about to enter and so by faith You just need to go now because the time is up. 27:52.583 --> 27:53.164 [SPEAKER_00]: Just go. 27:53.804 --> 27:54.525 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not that serious. 27:54.825 --> 28:05.253 [SPEAKER_00]: That has been a very helpful practice to me And it's way it's worship in the sense of I am just being a human letting God be God and I'm just settling myself in his story 28:06.054 --> 28:10.398 [SPEAKER_00]: rather than fighting against whatever lies or in my head. 28:10.558 --> 28:12.259 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just like, you know what, it is what it is. 28:12.459 --> 28:31.676 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think that that can be a practice and another thing that I've been, I've had this practice of saying this to myself all year and I've been sharing it a little bit online where I'll do a video in the mirror of my outfit, which this is a huge violation of my personality by the way, I don't want to do outfit videos like that's just not my vibe. 28:32.316 --> 28:40.738 [SPEAKER_00]: But the point of it was that when I do this, I'm forced to look at myself in the mirror and say, the most important thing about my outfit is that I'm closed in Christ. 28:41.699 --> 28:51.561 [SPEAKER_00]: And the repetition of saying that, and then even seeing the video back of myself doing it, and somehow it's the or pretty cute, and then somehow it's where I'm like, oh my word, Killing, I'm absolutely not. 28:52.062 --> 28:53.142 [SPEAKER_00]: And then everything in the middle, 28:53.640 --> 28:59.467 [SPEAKER_00]: But no matter what outfit I have on the truth doesn't change, the most important thing about my outfit is employed in Christ. 28:59.847 --> 29:02.751 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that is an easy practice that somebody can borrow. 29:03.312 --> 29:09.339 [SPEAKER_00]: And slowly, I don't think, it's not like a magic pill, but I think slowly you become more anchored. 29:09.759 --> 29:10.599 [SPEAKER_00]: and what is true. 29:11.300 --> 29:15.621 [SPEAKER_00]: And so you're able to enjoy the good outfits and not get that upset about the bad outfits. 29:16.142 --> 29:20.383 [SPEAKER_00]: And the things are frustrating, you just keep going and you're just anchored in a true or a better thing. 29:20.423 --> 29:23.484 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think that is a little practical thing that can help. 29:23.984 --> 29:25.025 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I love that. 29:25.045 --> 29:31.507 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm even thinking either, you're a full-length mirror or your kids full-length mirror just like writing that with marker. 29:31.647 --> 29:32.488 [SPEAKER_01]: Totally. 29:32.548 --> 29:34.909 [SPEAKER_01]: If you really want to commit, get a little bit. 29:34.949 --> 29:35.149 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 29:35.269 --> 29:36.609 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have a cricket, but my friends, 29:38.990 --> 29:40.071 [SPEAKER_01]: I know, I feel like everyone else does too. 29:40.091 --> 29:40.691 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have one either. 29:41.091 --> 29:41.572 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's get one. 29:41.952 --> 29:43.293 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, someone else can make it for me now. 29:43.313 --> 29:44.053 [SPEAKER_01]: I'll put it on the mirror. 29:44.073 --> 29:46.234 [SPEAKER_01]: But I just can go, especially with our kids too. 29:46.274 --> 29:56.360 [SPEAKER_01]: If we can start that practice and that thinking when they're younger, especially when they get a little bit older, they're in college and even young adults and really trying to form that identity in a independent way. 29:56.400 --> 29:59.362 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a powerful tool to give them while they're young. 30:00.215 --> 30:00.655 [SPEAKER_00]: I think so. 30:01.116 --> 30:01.316 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 30:01.496 --> 30:01.796 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. 30:01.836 --> 30:07.421 [SPEAKER_01]: To wrap us up, I'm just like the biggest thing the Lord taught you about clothing, doing this research. 30:07.441 --> 30:09.282 [SPEAKER_01]: That just made you get so excited. 30:09.822 --> 30:17.628 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I really think it goes back to this idea of hinting that God who covers and there are I've had a better lens to understand. 30:18.469 --> 30:20.251 [SPEAKER_00]: the real life fig leaves. 30:20.891 --> 30:26.556 [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like his story has sharpened me to understand when I'm trying to close myself with fig leaves. 30:26.636 --> 30:28.257 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I'm really prone. 30:28.597 --> 30:41.428 [SPEAKER_00]: I think we all have different ways of doing this, but I have this really big longing to present myself well to people, not so they'll be impressed, but so that they can't criticize me so that nobody could have anything negative to say. 30:41.988 --> 30:42.168 [SPEAKER_00]: And so 30:48.293 --> 31:12.859 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I feel like I can, the Holy Spirit helps me understand when I am reaching for fig leaves and it becomes a moment for me to remember the God who covers and he is my refuge and I put on his armor and I really don't have to try to thread the needle of the perfect outfit for the perfect scenario to armor myself against criticism. 31:12.879 --> 31:14.180 [SPEAKER_01]: That's not what actually keeps me safe. 31:14.380 --> 31:14.820 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think 31:15.706 --> 31:17.106 [SPEAKER_00]: little personal things like that. 31:17.126 --> 31:19.127 [SPEAKER_00]: That's where I feel like the story's chased me around. 31:19.167 --> 31:22.408 [SPEAKER_00]: Like it is no longer been an academic thing. 31:22.568 --> 31:24.088 [SPEAKER_00]: It's been so personal. 31:24.948 --> 31:30.369 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's just like leaking into my closet and coming at me when I'm peering in the mirror. 31:30.429 --> 31:32.970 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I've just been so grateful to the Lord. 31:32.990 --> 31:34.850 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think we all have little things like that. 31:35.811 --> 31:37.891 [SPEAKER_00]: Other people's issues may not be mine. 31:37.931 --> 31:40.212 [SPEAKER_00]: They're fig leaf coverings may not look like mine. 31:40.392 --> 31:41.332 [SPEAKER_00]: But we all have them. 31:41.632 --> 31:42.612 [SPEAKER_00]: And we're all trying to do that. 31:42.652 --> 31:44.333 [SPEAKER_00]: But there's a more lasting covering 31:45.893 --> 31:46.794 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely. 31:46.854 --> 31:55.179 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that this message will just resonate with so many people, so I'm really excited to get it out in the world and to be a little part to share with my listeners about all of this. 31:55.579 --> 32:00.823 [SPEAKER_01]: Can you tell us where we can connect with you and where we can get a copy of your book and all your other resources and stuff? 32:01.463 --> 32:04.966 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, so you can find me on Instagram and my website. 32:05.006 --> 32:06.807 [SPEAKER_00]: They are both writer, Caroline. 32:06.847 --> 32:09.289 [SPEAKER_00]: So at writer, Caroline, Instagram, writer, Caroline.com. 32:09.790 --> 32:12.192 [SPEAKER_00]: On my website, and I think both have links to books. 32:12.292 --> 32:17.416 [SPEAKER_00]: But for this particular book, you can get it out about what do I wear, book.com. 32:17.656 --> 32:20.578 [SPEAKER_00]: Or you could probably just Google Caroline's Honors Books, and it'll come up. 32:20.698 --> 32:24.741 [SPEAKER_00]: It is pink and red, because those are some of my favorite colors. 32:25.042 --> 32:27.444 [SPEAKER_00]: And so you'll be able to spot it pretty easily. 32:29.385 --> 32:36.610 [SPEAKER_00]: very encouraging to the church and I want it to really get in their, get in their minds and the intrusive thoughts to be a good one of the light. 32:36.810 --> 32:39.031 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but the most important thing about my office, I'm going to cry. 32:39.111 --> 32:41.333 [SPEAKER_00]: So I hope that I hope that it really serves more. 32:41.873 --> 32:42.153 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 32:42.273 --> 32:44.715 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, thank you so much for sharing the message. 32:44.755 --> 32:45.735 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for being here. 32:45.835 --> 32:46.496 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm so grateful. 32:46.556 --> 32:47.657 [SPEAKER_01]: I always love chatting with you. 32:47.677 --> 32:48.717 [SPEAKER_01]: So thank you for being on. 32:48.837 --> 32:49.398 [SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate it. 32:50.058 --> 32:51.159 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for having me, sir. 32:53.042 --> 32:53.902 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening. 32:53.942 --> 33:01.944 [SPEAKER_01]: Guys, I love that conversation, especially Caroline's reminder that the most important thing about our outfit is that we are clothed in Christ. 33:02.104 --> 33:05.905 [SPEAKER_01]: I think there's such a simple truth we can begin teaching our kids while they're young. 33:06.465 --> 33:15.647 [SPEAKER_01]: Clothes can be fun, fashion can be creative, we can enjoy beautiful things, but none of those things have to tell the world who we are because our identity is already secure in Jesus. 33:16.511 --> 33:19.252 [SPEAKER_01]: Again, Caroline's new book is called But What Do I Wear? 33:19.392 --> 33:21.212 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'll link that in show notes for you. 33:21.372 --> 33:22.892 [SPEAKER_01]: Definitely go check it out. 33:22.992 --> 33:24.813 [SPEAKER_01]: I really appreciate you being here. 33:25.213 --> 33:26.633 [SPEAKER_01]: May God bless you this week. 33:27.113 --> 33:30.214 [SPEAKER_01]: May you release the pressure to prove yourself to the people around you. 33:30.554 --> 33:32.435 [SPEAKER_01]: And may you help your kids do the same. 33:32.955 --> 33:37.876 [SPEAKER_01]: May your family enjoy the beautiful things that God has given me without asking those things to define you. 33:38.496 --> 33:43.177 [SPEAKER_01]: And may you always remember that your trueest, most lasting covering will always be found in Jesus.