WEBVTT 00:01.877 --> 00:09.261 [SPEAKER_02]: Welcome to the intentional fatherhood podcast, where we explore what it means to live on purpose as a father and how legacy starts at home. 00:09.921 --> 00:12.242 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm Justin Whitmorely, and I'm Brooke Moser. 00:12.562 --> 00:16.644 [SPEAKER_01]: We'll be your hosts, and we desire to bring biblical hope and practical hope. 00:17.165 --> 00:18.005 [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for listening. 00:19.826 --> 00:20.486 [SPEAKER_02]: Do you got your number? 00:20.506 --> 00:21.007 [SPEAKER_00]: Hi, I'm Annabelle. 00:21.027 --> 00:22.607 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, she's got her number because of me. 00:22.627 --> 00:23.328 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, first. 00:23.968 --> 00:24.308 [SPEAKER_01]: Seven. 00:26.189 --> 00:26.389 [SPEAKER_02]: Two. 00:27.250 --> 00:27.890 [SPEAKER_00]: Number six. 00:29.228 --> 00:36.831 [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome back to the intentional fatherhood podcast as you just heard that's called winning a fun game. 00:36.992 --> 00:40.733 [SPEAKER_01]: I think she favorite her husband here, which is her right, but yeah, that's true. 00:40.773 --> 00:43.094 [SPEAKER_02]: She's pretty in technical honesty. 00:43.174 --> 00:44.095 [SPEAKER_00]: I do not cheat. 00:44.555 --> 00:46.136 [SPEAKER_02]: I thought I was like in four. 00:46.516 --> 00:48.457 [SPEAKER_02]: I thought you can say four honestly, the number was three. 00:51.318 --> 00:55.000 [SPEAKER_01]: I love how you can bend realities so much like there's no way I could win. 00:55.020 --> 00:57.521 [SPEAKER_01]: Then it goes from someone like completely locked. 00:57.601 --> 00:58.262 [SPEAKER_01]: Pretty good at it. 00:58.322 --> 00:59.883 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a hard class my vision. 01:00.923 --> 01:05.806 [SPEAKER_01]: Well welcome back truly to the intentional fatherhood podcast as you're hearing a lovely voice. 01:05.906 --> 01:09.067 [SPEAKER_01]: We have the second female ever on this podcast. 01:09.868 --> 01:18.152 [SPEAKER_01]: First ever was when we're in Richmond and your sweet wife Lauren and now my wonderful wife Elizabeth. 01:20.113 --> 01:20.794 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, thank you. 01:20.814 --> 01:25.958 [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like it's such an honor to get to be on a all-boys podcast. 01:26.158 --> 01:27.620 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's not even close to true. 01:28.060 --> 01:31.583 [SPEAKER_01]: Also, we all know, like, man, the amount of moms that tune in. 01:31.623 --> 01:32.383 [SPEAKER_01]: We know ladies. 01:32.423 --> 01:33.064 [SPEAKER_01]: We love you here. 01:33.104 --> 01:34.105 [SPEAKER_01]: We're so grateful. 01:34.145 --> 01:35.246 [SPEAKER_01]: We're here for it. 01:35.286 --> 01:40.070 [SPEAKER_01]: So we're just trying to bring a voice that sounds familiar to you ladies so you can have some space. 01:40.970 --> 01:53.878 [SPEAKER_01]: We just wrapped up season four on Vice in the 70s and we have a fun episode today, but just a couple things, we have some events, go check out intentional fatherhood.org for that. 01:55.159 --> 01:57.561 [SPEAKER_01]: We have some other business, tell people one of the ways they can help. 01:58.001 --> 02:00.322 [SPEAKER_01]: We say this every time and it's helpful, so please actually make space for it. 02:00.643 --> 02:02.064 [SPEAKER_01]: But Justin, you're great at this. 02:02.724 --> 02:05.526 [SPEAKER_01]: You're great at a lot of things, but this you are also pretty good at this actually. 02:06.586 --> 02:07.207 [SPEAKER_01]: You really humble. 02:07.247 --> 02:08.027 [SPEAKER_01]: We've done this before. 02:08.067 --> 02:11.489 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm really good at over spiritualizing, liking, subscribing and following. 02:11.609 --> 02:12.189 [SPEAKER_02]: You are good at it. 02:12.209 --> 02:18.452 [SPEAKER_02]: So let me just say, yeah, we don't care about our numbers, you know, what we care about is that you listen to this in community. 02:18.732 --> 02:19.312 [SPEAKER_01]: There you go. 02:19.332 --> 02:28.856 [SPEAKER_02]: And the best way for other people to find out about it and to bring a community of fathers around this is to like, subscribe, leave a content and send us a voice memo so we can respond to you. 02:29.097 --> 02:30.897 [SPEAKER_02]: Hello at intentionalfatherhood.org. 02:31.057 --> 02:31.257 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. 02:31.618 --> 02:32.238 [SPEAKER_02]: Tell us your name. 02:33.678 --> 02:34.258 [SPEAKER_02]: Tell us where you're from. 02:34.539 --> 02:37.541 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, your weight would be great to tell us your body. 02:37.561 --> 02:38.862 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, your weight. 02:38.882 --> 02:39.323 [SPEAKER_02]: Your body. 02:39.403 --> 02:40.604 [SPEAKER_02]: It's not what I'm going to do. 02:41.004 --> 02:41.685 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm fine. 02:41.705 --> 02:42.285 [SPEAKER_02]: That's a question. 02:42.325 --> 02:43.026 [SPEAKER_02]: What question do you have? 02:43.046 --> 02:44.727 [SPEAKER_02]: But stay your question in the form of a question. 02:44.747 --> 02:45.828 [SPEAKER_02]: Keep it under 60 seconds. 02:46.169 --> 02:46.329 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 02:46.709 --> 02:47.690 [SPEAKER_02]: And we'll try to respond to you. 02:47.710 --> 02:54.596 [SPEAKER_02]: But because what we want to do is we want to be in conversation with you all and we want you all to be in conversation with each other and listening to this and talking together. 02:54.936 --> 02:57.118 [SPEAKER_02]: So that was mildly spiritual. 02:57.498 --> 03:21.407 [SPEAKER_01]: I think you're sure right though it is really helpful and so to recap today what we kind of want to kind of what we want to talk about is specifically how our spouse's help form us and what we really actually are going to dive into pretty quickly is the dues and the don'ts of basically helping your spouse flourish and deal with their sin. 03:22.367 --> 03:36.454 [SPEAKER_01]: And this is something that Elizabeth and I have a lot of experience in it, and I want to speak for you and Lauren, but I can say from my very sincere honesty on this one, we have a lot of data points of the do's and a lot of the don't. 03:36.474 --> 03:37.194 [SPEAKER_01]: So we have a lot of data points. 03:37.454 --> 03:38.715 [SPEAKER_01]: We find the do's by the don'ts. 03:38.935 --> 03:40.256 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I mean, this is about sin. 03:40.376 --> 03:44.658 [SPEAKER_02]: If you refine out a lot of the ways you shouldn't go about helping the other in your sin, right? 03:44.878 --> 03:53.662 [SPEAKER_01]: So before we do, I do also want to say a couple of things, Elizabeth and I get to really intentional together, which is really fun. 03:53.742 --> 03:58.504 [SPEAKER_01]: And so some of you are familiar with Elizabeth's voice on the intentional parents podcast. 03:59.105 --> 04:09.990 [SPEAKER_01]: And for all you fathers listening who have been part of this journey with Justin and I, and maybe come to some of the events we do, intentional also host a whole host of these things. 04:10.530 --> 04:13.675 [SPEAKER_01]: Elizabeth does for your wives, the mothers. 04:13.996 --> 04:21.148 [SPEAKER_01]: And so just give us like two seconds on anything you want, but also just intentional motherhood specifically. 04:22.177 --> 04:29.522 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I feel like I have to say the intent from motherhood retreat came first before is the intention of fatherhood retreating. 04:29.822 --> 04:31.103 [SPEAKER_01]: I think she got both of us. 04:31.524 --> 04:33.905 [SPEAKER_01]: And unfortunately, she's right. 04:34.005 --> 04:39.589 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, but, but I do have to say getting to be at the first intentional fatherhood retreat. 04:40.290 --> 04:47.175 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, we have years now of experience doing it with mothers and I'll never forget the first one we did. 04:47.775 --> 04:49.937 [SPEAKER_00]: We're praying in the back before it started. 04:51.288 --> 04:53.650 [SPEAKER_00]: And I walked out like red as worship was starting. 04:54.310 --> 05:00.615 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think I don't remember how many were there the first one like 600 women similar to the first father of retreat. 05:00.955 --> 05:04.878 [SPEAKER_00]: And I just felt like I have no better way to describe it of like 05:06.291 --> 05:21.199 [SPEAKER_00]: the presence of the Holy Spirit was so palpable that I just felt like I got hit with it when I walked into the room and over the course of the weekend it just felt like this is what revival looks like and it starts in homes. 05:21.339 --> 05:27.683 [SPEAKER_00]: It starts with mothers and fathers and then it spreads to children and communities and workplaces and churches. 05:28.683 --> 05:33.453 [SPEAKER_00]: And so we've gotten to experience that year over year with the motherhood retreat. 05:33.873 --> 05:37.000 [SPEAKER_00]: And the fatherhood retreat, I was just kind of curious, like, is it going to be similar? 05:37.020 --> 05:38.583 [SPEAKER_00]: Is it going to be entirely different? 05:39.838 --> 05:59.315 [SPEAKER_00]: and to watch it have been there among fathers was almost felt even more powerful to see how passionate those fathers were for leading their families, for honestly living in community and confessing sin and they just needed somebody to call them up and be vulnerable in front of them to give them permission. 06:00.356 --> 06:05.218 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, so I would say anybody listening if you're just like, I don't know if that type of event is for me. 06:05.318 --> 06:08.799 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not even an events person and I wouldn't miss any of them for the world. 06:08.859 --> 06:15.522 [SPEAKER_00]: Motherhood or fatherhood just to get to be a part of it and witness what God does in the room. 06:15.682 --> 06:20.443 [SPEAKER_00]: Like it, it's just, I still am searching for like the best words for it. 06:20.604 --> 06:24.265 [SPEAKER_00]: But um, I'd say they're well worth the investment in the time. 06:25.245 --> 06:25.466 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 06:25.606 --> 06:38.273 [SPEAKER_02]: The your description of you walking out in your first intentional mother or treat, I would thought you were describing the fatherhood or treat the first because it literally exactly my experience went into our first one and walking out in mean life. 06:38.613 --> 06:40.594 [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's probably the first thing I said on stage is like, 06:41.815 --> 06:55.926 [SPEAKER_02]: This heavy sense that we weren't just talking to fathers that we were talking to generations to come because when you get moms or dads in a room together like that, you're changing so much more than them. 06:56.827 --> 07:06.037 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and that's I mean that that's the experience and so maybe just to note like Father's if you've been encouraged the intentional part parents podcast You can check that out. 07:06.297 --> 07:06.977 [SPEAKER_01]: We're all connected. 07:07.298 --> 07:17.188 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a part of intentional And then we have our mother who retreat our our next ones coming up so go go check out the intentional intentional parents.org It's where that's at all of our socials, you know 07:17.548 --> 07:31.261 [SPEAKER_01]: just note that this is something as well as you're getting away this is something that your wife in many ways could very much just grow in and be encouraged by if anything getting away for two and a half days or three days, no mom's going to be mad about that. 07:31.301 --> 07:31.541 [SPEAKER_01]: So. 07:32.722 --> 07:38.585 [SPEAKER_02]: So on that note, just for that, it also strikes me if you can't figure out how to help her deal with her send. 07:38.605 --> 07:39.285 [SPEAKER_02]: Just send her the intent. 07:39.305 --> 07:40.106 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. 07:40.166 --> 07:47.409 [SPEAKER_02]: If vice versa for the moms listening, if you just can't figure out how to help her as we deal with the set to send him to the intent of her father, which will help. 07:47.829 --> 07:50.491 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we know it's interesting and we're going to get into today. 07:50.951 --> 07:54.232 [SPEAKER_01]: But about that combination, you know, this is the first year. 07:55.733 --> 07:58.934 [SPEAKER_01]: The motherhood retreat, not intentional, but the motherhood retreat came about in 2023. 07:59.034 --> 08:00.895 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it was our first year that we did it. 08:01.775 --> 08:06.297 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was just similar thing where it was shocking the amount was like, how did anybody find out about this? 08:06.337 --> 08:10.958 [SPEAKER_01]: This many people, and it wasn't just like the area, it was all over the country. 08:11.698 --> 08:14.859 [SPEAKER_01]: And you know what was interesting about this year was starting fatherhood. 08:14.879 --> 08:15.860 [SPEAKER_01]: It was I was curious. 08:16.520 --> 08:19.083 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, would there be husbands that go in and send their wives? 08:19.103 --> 08:24.350 [SPEAKER_01]: And I have to tell you, the countless men I talk to better like, yep, I'm coming here, my wife's going to this one. 08:24.490 --> 08:35.203 [SPEAKER_01]: And like, realizing there is this fun, you know, shared dynamic, which, you know, does make people think like, are you guys going to do a marriage retreat? 08:35.503 --> 08:37.285 [SPEAKER_01]: in the answer is, yes, we are. 08:38.766 --> 08:43.710 [SPEAKER_01]: We have some coming up, but they're not launched yet, but that is happening so you guys can come do some of this stuff together. 08:43.750 --> 08:52.738 [SPEAKER_01]: But all of that said, today on the episode, we want to talk about marriage in the dynamic and we just went through a whole season of vise. 08:52.938 --> 08:56.321 [SPEAKER_01]: I know that you haven't listened to that episode because we just got them recording it. 08:56.921 --> 09:13.274 [SPEAKER_01]: But, um, I think you're very familiar with my sin and very familiar with the idea of sin Elizabeth, but I want to talk about how this kind of shows up in our marriage and so obviously Lauren's not here to to voice her side, but I do trust She'll she'll keep her seats if this is accurate or not. 09:13.614 --> 09:14.455 [SPEAKER_01]: She'll compensate. 09:15.076 --> 09:15.276 [SPEAKER_01]: She'll 09:19.399 --> 09:20.820 [SPEAKER_02]: It should be on the next season for sure. 09:20.840 --> 09:22.381 [SPEAKER_02]: It should be like, world be there to guess. 09:22.461 --> 09:23.362 [SPEAKER_00]: Or one minute points. 09:23.382 --> 09:28.145 [SPEAKER_02]: Just to let it not get your question in the form of a question, but I actually have a tie right now, but I have some thoughts. 09:28.626 --> 09:32.068 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's just to say, like, obviously, we're going to share some of these. 09:32.328 --> 09:38.293 [SPEAKER_01]: And marriage is just to say, it's such a massive part of your fatherhood journey and your motherhood journey. 09:39.053 --> 09:43.516 [SPEAKER_01]: And it is to be noted that none of us, again, have this figured out. 09:43.736 --> 09:47.979 [SPEAKER_01]: And we all have our own pitfalls in our own invitations to formation and all of that. 09:49.480 --> 09:52.162 [SPEAKER_01]: So any, I'm just setting it all up just in Elizabeth. 09:52.242 --> 09:58.106 [SPEAKER_01]: Any other thoughts before we kind of go through these five dos don'ts, which will be the bulk of our conversation, but any thoughts before we get in? 09:59.927 --> 10:05.530 [SPEAKER_02]: My first thought is we ended our episode on Pride, our last of this season, 10:09.100 --> 10:16.964 [SPEAKER_02]: The product is the thing you can't see in the mirror and mirror just precisely the place where your spouse helps you see all your stuff. 10:18.371 --> 10:40.717 [SPEAKER_02]: But I think, and I'm just curious if you agree Elizabeth, so often our perspective is to be frustrated about our spouse's sin and to assume that they see us wrong instead of accepting the gift of marriage, which is there's finally somebody in your life that can tell you who you really are and help you out to become who you truly should be. 10:42.517 --> 10:43.698 [SPEAKER_02]: Do we actually listen to that? 10:43.758 --> 10:44.638 [SPEAKER_02]: Do we close it off? 10:46.805 --> 10:56.433 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, it makes me think of like the redeemed version of ourselves and the sinful nature, version of ourselves. 10:56.573 --> 11:09.064 [SPEAKER_00]: And like in the redeemed beautiful version of that, marriages this place of like great grace and compassion and safety, where we can be who we really are, all the broken parts, and somebody loves us anyway. 11:09.444 --> 11:12.027 [SPEAKER_00]: It's going to stay anyway, and is going to be 11:13.888 --> 11:26.837 [SPEAKER_00]: That's how it can work and then there's life and stress and our family of origin and our wounding and our kids and all the things that make that redeemed version sometimes really hard to get to. 11:26.857 --> 11:36.803 [SPEAKER_00]: But it's always worth fighting for because it is possible and even that idea of like glimpses of heaven this side of heaven, like the kingdom of heaven coming to earth. 11:37.284 --> 11:38.725 [SPEAKER_00]: It can come to earth in our marriage. 11:39.585 --> 11:42.346 [SPEAKER_00]: And we can also stop it from coming to earth in our marriage. 11:44.227 --> 11:47.349 [SPEAKER_00]: And it even just learning to recognize when we're doing that. 11:47.629 --> 12:03.617 [SPEAKER_00]: And what the Holy Spirit might want to do instead to actually bring healing to the places in our marriage that hurt the most because the seven deadly sins are pride, are anger, are all of our vices, are the things that cause the most hurt in our marriage. 12:03.777 --> 12:05.738 [SPEAKER_00]: And are also, to your point of what you're saying, 12:06.318 --> 12:13.521 [SPEAKER_00]: The places where God can reveal it the most so that we can actually deal with it, so we can actually find freedom and be free from it. 12:14.622 --> 12:17.883 [SPEAKER_00]: And usually our marriages are mixeders of both all the time. 12:17.903 --> 12:19.504 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, sure. 12:19.944 --> 12:24.106 [SPEAKER_02]: Remind me, when you spoke at the intention of Father who retreat, you got the only standing evasion. 12:24.586 --> 12:50.799 [SPEAKER_02]: But for she started that was because of Brooks introduction, but it was before she started that was because of her presence I know no joke or I said yes, they stood up before she talked I mean, yes, you're your presence, it was created it Yeah, I thought my pride was, but then to the end of your talk was something like Seven things your wife needs you to know that's seven, but this Uh, I think like what your wife wishes you knew what your wife wishes you that's what it was 12:51.639 --> 12:54.160 [SPEAKER_02]: I kind of want to ask a version of that question. 12:56.040 --> 13:05.883 [SPEAKER_02]: What do husbands need to know about how wives are actually there to help them deal with their sin, and yet we can't see. 13:07.643 --> 13:17.526 [SPEAKER_02]: You said something amazing as we were talking a little bit of prep of this about how wives are actually a helper to be there to help you out of this in a unique way that I think often we close off. 13:19.586 --> 13:27.752 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I want to be careful how to say this because, again, back to that, like, redeemed or unredeemed version, this can come outside ways for women. 13:28.432 --> 13:38.899 [SPEAKER_00]: But when we look to how God created us and when God, in the Scriptures, we read, we read the word helper that women were created to be a helper suitable for Adam. 13:40.320 --> 13:50.026 [SPEAKER_00]: That word helper is a terrible translation of the Hebrew word, he's are, which I'm supposed to say with a lot of, like, I think just your mom is, you don't have to do it. 13:50.146 --> 13:51.287 [SPEAKER_01]: Generational sin, don't do it. 13:51.587 --> 13:59.732 [SPEAKER_00]: But it, but it's actually a military term where when a where was fighting in battle and needed help was, it was like, not looking good, the odds were against him. 14:00.273 --> 14:03.495 [SPEAKER_00]: His, he's are would come and fight back to back with him. 14:03.595 --> 14:07.077 [SPEAKER_00]: Their swords drawn equally fighting in battle together. 14:07.097 --> 14:07.377 [SPEAKER_01]: That's it. 14:07.537 --> 14:08.157 [SPEAKER_01]: Great analogy. 14:08.478 --> 14:10.198 [SPEAKER_00]: That's what that term means. 14:10.679 --> 14:22.145 [SPEAKER_00]: Tim Keller said we think of it like it what it is not is the husband is the contractor and the wife carries the tool bag, which that's what the word helper like that's what the connotations seem like. 14:22.945 --> 14:33.671 [SPEAKER_00]: But your wife is actually a gift to you to come alongside and to war with you against the enemy, against your sin, to create good in the world. 14:33.891 --> 14:36.333 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I'm not the one who first studied. 14:36.353 --> 14:38.594 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, but this is all very true. 14:38.614 --> 14:46.739 [SPEAKER_00]: But I think it's so important for husbands and and wives, but for husbands to recognize the gift that they have in their wife, that women 14:52.682 --> 15:06.914 [SPEAKER_00]: and that Eve was called mother before she ever had children, which means that all women, regardless of if you have children or not, we have this innate nurturing we want to care for, what a moms want to do. 15:06.954 --> 15:15.260 [SPEAKER_00]: They want to see their children grow and as healthy as they possibly can be in all aspects physically, emotionally, spiritually. 15:15.881 --> 15:17.742 [SPEAKER_00]: So all of that is in your wife, 15:18.643 --> 15:29.036 [SPEAKER_00]: And when it comes out in a Holy Spirit filled way, she's compassionate, she's kind, she's lovingly pointing out the areas in your life, not because she hates you. 15:29.116 --> 15:31.739 [SPEAKER_00]: And she wants you to stop the stop sinning. 15:31.799 --> 15:32.740 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's part of it. 15:32.780 --> 15:37.446 [SPEAKER_00]: But because she sees all the good that is possible in you and she wants to help. 15:39.008 --> 15:52.921 [SPEAKER_00]: The flip side of that, that the enemy often uses are like God given role to be nitpicky, to criticize, to be just annoyingly mothering all the time, which drives you away. 15:53.801 --> 15:59.947 [SPEAKER_00]: But I think it's so important that husband understand what that word means and wives, understand that you have this like, 16:00.848 --> 16:03.310 [SPEAKER_00]: very vital role in your husband's life. 16:03.510 --> 16:12.035 [SPEAKER_00]: And oftentimes we like kind of give it up in passivity, but just it comes out as like we're just annoyed and frustrated. 16:12.796 --> 16:22.362 [SPEAKER_00]: But really, we as women have a role to with just like God does with us, with compassion, with honesty, but with so much tenderness and so much grace. 16:23.122 --> 16:24.423 [SPEAKER_00]: He's so gracious with this. 16:24.964 --> 16:27.245 [SPEAKER_00]: So we wives also have to be that for our husbands. 16:27.265 --> 16:36.912 [SPEAKER_00]: But I think that's just an important framework as we talk of like understanding the role that women can play in their husband's life and vice versa. 16:38.493 --> 16:41.695 [SPEAKER_02]: We mentioned a little bit of this before the upset as we were planning, but I did not. 16:42.902 --> 16:58.629 [SPEAKER_02]: You didn't say that word picture of like standing back to back fighting, which is incredible framing for what we're talking about because we had been drawing out a theme through seven of these episodes of you're not living in a comedy. 16:58.649 --> 17:00.109 [SPEAKER_02]: You're living in an action movie. 17:00.169 --> 17:02.230 [SPEAKER_02]: You got to wake up and fight your connection. 17:02.290 --> 17:03.311 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, good connection. 17:03.331 --> 17:06.192 [SPEAKER_02]: And it just strikes me so beautiful. 17:06.972 --> 17:18.520 [SPEAKER_02]: that we would see our wives not as the one who's complaining or nitpicking or it's being like, why can't you just be, but instead being that one that is at our back fighting for us because guess what you can't see in battle? 17:18.680 --> 17:18.941 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 17:19.001 --> 17:19.841 [SPEAKER_02]: What's behind you? 17:19.901 --> 17:20.061 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. 17:20.201 --> 17:23.524 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's where the enemy is attacking you from behind, like not the things you can see. 17:23.544 --> 17:24.484 [SPEAKER_02]: That's easy to defend. 17:24.905 --> 17:25.865 [SPEAKER_02]: But the things you can't. 17:26.106 --> 17:29.608 [SPEAKER_02]: And that beautiful image that she would come up in fight with us. 17:29.708 --> 17:30.228 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm curious. 17:31.009 --> 17:31.569 [SPEAKER_02]: I broke. 17:32.610 --> 17:49.465 [SPEAKER_02]: Because you guys do, you guys do a lot of this like family ministry, do you see that is like easy for you or the guys that you talked to or do you constantly see people seeing their wives differently and not accepting that role of fighting. 17:50.787 --> 17:54.690 [SPEAKER_02]: And I got them give you permission to answer any of your life or in the lives of people that you talked to. 17:54.710 --> 17:57.933 [SPEAKER_01]: No, I mean, Elizabeth and I, I mean, we all what 17:59.414 --> 18:12.081 [SPEAKER_01]: Where we all line is transparency and vulnerability is the only way and it's because it's not helpful to be randomly prescriptive about other people's lives because in there can be a lot of hidden confusion. 18:12.141 --> 18:18.685 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'll use my life as an example because that's the one I know best and I have real life examples. 18:19.406 --> 18:19.986 [SPEAKER_01]: Is it easy? 18:20.286 --> 18:26.091 [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, not at all, but I also don't think that it was meant to be. 18:26.751 --> 18:32.495 [SPEAKER_01]: This whole fictitious idea, and I'll say something that everybody already knows, and everyone's already heard, especially in Christendom. 18:33.576 --> 18:34.937 [SPEAKER_01]: Marriage is not for your happiness. 18:34.997 --> 18:35.898 [SPEAKER_01]: It's for your holiness. 18:36.338 --> 18:37.139 [SPEAKER_01]: You've heard that. 18:37.559 --> 18:38.760 [SPEAKER_01]: You we say that. 18:39.240 --> 18:43.003 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe you haven't heard it, but the truth is, we get married for the wrong reasons. 18:43.464 --> 18:47.347 [SPEAKER_01]: Usually, meaning we seek happiness, satisfaction, 18:50.108 --> 18:55.711 [SPEAKER_01]: But really, it got like, hey, I'm actually going to use this to be the best former for you to make you holy. 18:57.672 --> 19:03.815 [SPEAKER_01]: And hopefully you can get to a spot in your marriage where happiness is a byproduct, but it can never be the goal. 19:03.895 --> 19:06.257 [SPEAKER_01]: And if it is the goal, it's what destroys you. 19:06.537 --> 19:13.120 [SPEAKER_01]: So if you're seeking happiness exclusively in your marriage as the primary goal, you'll, you won't find it in fact, you'll destroy your marriage. 19:13.160 --> 19:17.803 [SPEAKER_01]: But if you seek holiness, happiness has an opportunity to get on board and be a part of it. 19:18.563 --> 19:25.649 [SPEAKER_01]: because it is that heart, merges of mirror and so you're walking around with this constant feedback loop of who you actually are versus who you think you are. 19:26.129 --> 19:31.393 [SPEAKER_01]: I can be such a better husband in my head than I can be in reality, so that's the truth. 19:31.433 --> 19:33.915 [SPEAKER_01]: So I think that's with Elizabeth and I, that's where 19:35.364 --> 19:43.991 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, my sins and her sins, just like every couple, irritated each other and poke on each other. 19:44.612 --> 19:54.580 [SPEAKER_01]: So when she's maybe tired overwhelmed, just not thinking about her default setting, which would maybe be like, she can see room for improvement and everything in every one. 19:54.620 --> 19:55.761 [SPEAKER_01]: Now this is a huge strength. 19:56.882 --> 20:00.504 [SPEAKER_01]: but not filled with the spirit, not aware of how that comes out. 20:00.524 --> 20:04.506 [SPEAKER_01]: When that comes out, that's not a help to me that really irritates me. 20:04.606 --> 20:11.050 [SPEAKER_01]: Then it brings out my sin, which is lack of patience, lack of graciousness, no empathy, like how could you do that? 20:11.130 --> 20:11.350 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, 20:12.515 --> 20:17.216 [SPEAKER_01]: So like we have our dynamic I'm saying our dance to say like everyone has there's it might be similar. 20:18.096 --> 20:26.318 [SPEAKER_01]: The point isn't the dance the point is like for her to get to a spot where she can note that the room for improvement. 20:26.558 --> 20:37.480 [SPEAKER_01]: She thinks about she prays about she's singing in a way that I can receive that's kind but honest because that's actually that's her role and at the very same time it's my job to be able to grow and learn how to 20:38.200 --> 20:50.554 [SPEAKER_01]: humbly receive, something that I thought I was better in, or something that I think that I'm good at, that maybe I'm really not, and so does it show up or how does it show up? 20:50.634 --> 20:58.783 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it shows up in a million ways every day, and each of us have an invitation, Elizabeth, and myself, and every man listening and every woman listening. 20:59.363 --> 21:05.809 [SPEAKER_01]: to decide am I going to humbly receive some of these reflections? 21:06.610 --> 21:07.711 [SPEAKER_01]: Or am I going to deny them? 21:07.751 --> 21:10.053 [SPEAKER_01]: Because you got married because you love each other. 21:10.514 --> 21:11.655 [SPEAKER_01]: You got married because you liked each other. 21:12.015 --> 21:17.400 [SPEAKER_01]: And along the way with a lot of different wounds that you've collected, you've heard each other a lot. 21:18.141 --> 21:42.002 [SPEAKER_01]: and you've either repaired those wounds, or you've let them build to the point of resentment, deep bitterness, distance, and for all of us, we have the invitation to harbor bitterness, hold it, assume the worst, think that everyone's against us, think that our wife or husband's hates us, or we can say, maybe I have some things that I got to work on, and maybe my pride, 21:42.802 --> 22:06.740 [SPEAKER_01]: is stopping me because I'm trying to protect myself because really at the end of the day I Need I want I want to matter and I see that the person I love the most I don't matter to her right now and that hurts me in a deep way and you see like how it gets deeper and deeper and deeper So I It shows up for us in some some of the different some of those different ways, but yeah, I don't even know if I'm responding fully to your question at this point but 22:08.021 --> 22:12.203 [SPEAKER_01]: I would say that it's not always easy, but it's always necessary. 22:12.583 --> 22:19.967 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's not easy to have someone go, you know, when you said that this way, that hurt my feelings. 22:21.308 --> 22:26.170 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that, you know, down the list, it's really hard because this happened just the other night. 22:26.190 --> 22:27.051 [SPEAKER_01]: Like I said something 22:33.014 --> 22:39.080 [SPEAKER_01]: I said something and she had noted in my tone and in my body language that it was like short and insensitive. 22:39.781 --> 22:42.263 [SPEAKER_01]: It seemed to show up on my radar that I was in that zone. 22:42.403 --> 22:42.663 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 22:43.604 --> 22:51.212 [SPEAKER_01]: So either she's lying because she's mad and she just wants to nitpick or maybe I was actually true. 22:51.332 --> 22:56.336 [SPEAKER_01]: Running hard and just wasn't thinking and was like really like just rude. 22:57.097 --> 23:00.220 [SPEAKER_01]: When she pointed it out, my response was like, what are you talking about? 23:00.240 --> 23:00.721 [SPEAKER_01]: You're crazy. 23:00.781 --> 23:01.381 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I'm not. 23:01.562 --> 23:03.824 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not doing that at all, which didn't help her. 23:03.984 --> 23:06.026 [SPEAKER_01]: She was like, no, but you were. 23:06.126 --> 23:07.628 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, what was it? 23:08.088 --> 23:11.572 [SPEAKER_01]: And all that did was keep a stuck and in more and more of the tension. 23:12.072 --> 23:14.515 [SPEAKER_01]: And as soon as I could see, like, I don't, I didn't see it. 23:15.934 --> 23:18.416 [SPEAKER_01]: but I trust that you're, but I trust that it's true. 23:18.556 --> 23:20.917 [SPEAKER_01]: So then my job is to repair and to repent. 23:22.078 --> 23:28.602 [SPEAKER_01]: And I still actually could tell you right now like, I do not, it did not show up on my radar whatsoever, that I was being that way. 23:29.775 --> 23:31.756 [SPEAKER_01]: but I was also hyper focused on other stuff. 23:31.956 --> 23:35.897 [SPEAKER_01]: So I have to trust her in that moment that she's not just trying to destroy me. 23:36.077 --> 23:37.037 [SPEAKER_01]: She's trying to help me. 23:38.117 --> 23:43.839 [SPEAKER_01]: And she actually did, in that moment, she didn't actually do, she didn't present the material in a hard way to receive. 23:44.759 --> 23:51.121 [SPEAKER_01]: I just was like disconnected to the point that I thought she was just like being overly sensitive. 23:51.701 --> 23:54.262 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I don't know if that was a part of it or not, but it didn't really matter. 23:54.442 --> 23:56.142 [SPEAKER_01]: The point is I should have had more graciousness. 23:59.228 --> 24:00.708 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like an art and a dance. 24:00.888 --> 24:23.973 [SPEAKER_00]: I think to learn with your specific spouse, with your individual wiring, your two stories that are coming together to create one, we have to learn how to communicate about what is my family really good at, giving really good constructive criticism. 24:25.393 --> 24:31.720 [SPEAKER_00]: But really, that's what it is, but like all members really learning the language that our spouse can receive it in. 24:31.840 --> 24:34.143 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, I can say that that's important. 24:34.983 --> 24:37.466 [SPEAKER_00]: Actually doing that usually I'm just mad. 24:37.807 --> 24:39.669 [SPEAKER_00]: That is anger is like my course in. 24:40.269 --> 24:45.435 [SPEAKER_00]: Usually I'm mad and I just am like if I don't talk to you about it right now, I'm going to be resentful and be even more mad. 24:45.915 --> 25:04.306 [SPEAKER_00]: So I got to talk about it, and it doesn't come out right, but if we can really like take a pause, take a breath prayer, Justin, and think about like, what does my, in what way does my spouse need me to say this for them to actually be able to hear it? 25:04.866 --> 25:09.449 [SPEAKER_00]: What do I maybe even need to say first, so that they don't immediately shut off? 25:09.549 --> 25:11.410 [SPEAKER_00]: I just think of, because you were talking 25:15.772 --> 25:20.020 [SPEAKER_00]: And here he is like he's not, he's not even correcting her. 25:20.280 --> 25:23.866 [SPEAKER_00]: He's just telling her what is true about her life. 25:24.859 --> 25:27.561 [SPEAKER_00]: He's not even telling her like, you shouldn't be that way. 25:27.621 --> 25:29.061 [SPEAKER_00]: You shouldn't have so many husbands. 25:29.081 --> 25:30.322 [SPEAKER_00]: You shouldn't have done all these things. 25:30.682 --> 25:33.004 [SPEAKER_00]: He just tells her what her life is. 25:34.064 --> 25:41.588 [SPEAKER_00]: And she goes and tells the whole town the amazement that she met a man who told her everything about her life. 25:42.069 --> 25:43.269 [SPEAKER_00]: And her whole life has changed. 25:43.289 --> 25:44.550 [SPEAKER_00]: She becomes a follower of Jesus. 25:44.670 --> 25:47.392 [SPEAKER_00]: She's testifying about him to everyone. 25:48.052 --> 25:49.993 [SPEAKER_00]: And I just think, but what was his tone like? 25:50.623 --> 25:55.866 [SPEAKER_02]: I always think the same thing, well, a lot of passages, specifically the one from the wall. 25:56.186 --> 25:57.928 [SPEAKER_00]: You have to know it was a great title. 25:58.028 --> 26:04.772 [SPEAKER_00]: It must have been drenched with compassion because he knew that's how she needed to receive it for it to change her life. 26:05.752 --> 26:12.577 [SPEAKER_00]: And so can you imagine in marriage, if we were that like thoughtful and compassionate, 26:13.377 --> 26:22.020 [SPEAKER_00]: and he had to have been just a calming present to be able to say he didn't trigger coat her life of sin. 26:22.040 --> 26:25.241 [SPEAKER_02]: He had a hard thing but apparently in a way she could understand. 26:25.282 --> 26:25.562 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 26:26.102 --> 26:26.382 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 26:26.562 --> 26:36.846 [SPEAKER_00]: And again, that's hard because in that moment in a marriage you have to set aside all that you feel and the hurt that you feel about how that's in a defecting you. 26:36.866 --> 26:37.966 [SPEAKER_01]: Right. 26:38.246 --> 26:39.247 [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't mean stuff it. 26:40.087 --> 26:46.309 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, set it aside in the moment so that you can actually try to work through it with your spouse, so that you can address it. 26:46.369 --> 26:51.270 [SPEAKER_00]: If you're just operating 100% out of your hurt, you hurt me. 26:51.310 --> 26:53.331 [SPEAKER_00]: How could you, how could you do this to me again? 26:53.351 --> 26:56.052 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, none of all of us get defensive. 26:57.632 --> 27:07.495 [SPEAKER_02]: I kind of like how this is set out, like the most beautiful vision, which is that your spouse is particularly well-suited and publicly called to help you out of your sin. 27:08.075 --> 27:21.865 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and yet we are particularly suited to not hear yes, recognize or accept the help our spouse has to offer and to be clear, I think you both sort of just alluded to this. 27:22.762 --> 27:27.805 [SPEAKER_02]: We're often our own pride is mixed up in our attempts to help our spouse. 27:27.905 --> 27:32.508 [SPEAKER_02]: So we got centers helping centers, which is a mess. 27:33.369 --> 27:37.372 [SPEAKER_02]: So maybe some dudes and don'ts would help because I like how you said this is an art. 27:37.392 --> 27:42.935 [SPEAKER_02]: This is a dance like we, I need to learn how to help Lauren because I can see her simply particularly well. 27:43.275 --> 27:44.436 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm the closest one too. 27:45.237 --> 27:46.658 [SPEAKER_02]: And she needs to learn how to help me. 27:46.698 --> 27:49.500 [SPEAKER_02]: We both need to some dudes and don'ts. 27:49.660 --> 27:49.940 [SPEAKER_02]: So. 27:50.280 --> 27:50.921 [SPEAKER_02]: How many do we have? 27:51.421 --> 27:54.705 [SPEAKER_01]: We got five, five, and I think we could do a lot more, but we'll settle with that today. 27:54.745 --> 28:10.323 [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, I Elizabeth, I appreciate that perspective or a reminder, as a reminder, to all of us of like, there isn't, and this is beautiful, because this is where I love EASER as a concept, even visually. 28:12.207 --> 28:15.909 [SPEAKER_01]: It puts you in your wife in the same playing field. 28:15.949 --> 28:27.777 [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of times in culture, especially in Christianism, especially throughout culture and history, where there's almost women or you, as a lesser, as far as even some of the strength that they might have. 28:28.317 --> 28:36.144 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, biblically, there are phrases like weaker vessel, but when you actually look at that, it doesn't mean weaker incapacity and intelligence. 28:36.425 --> 28:40.608 [SPEAKER_01]: It means they are physically not as naturally strong as you. 28:40.648 --> 28:41.950 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 28:42.250 --> 28:43.951 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's what is that testosterone? 28:43.971 --> 28:45.032 [SPEAKER_01]: Like there's things there, right? 28:45.112 --> 28:48.776 [SPEAKER_01]: But the point isn't to even get into that is to say there is this beautiful, 28:51.033 --> 28:52.814 [SPEAKER_01]: equality and difference. 28:52.954 --> 28:55.095 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not about who does what? 28:55.175 --> 28:56.456 [SPEAKER_01]: It's about what is your role. 28:56.996 --> 29:01.118 [SPEAKER_01]: And you has been to have a very specific role that you are supposed to, that you ought to fill. 29:01.258 --> 29:04.500 [SPEAKER_01]: And then you wife have a very specific role that you ought to fill. 29:04.540 --> 29:08.101 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's identifying those roles and helping each other, which we're saying. 29:08.181 --> 29:12.103 [SPEAKER_02]: So I also, you keep going, but I just want to briefly throw out. 29:12.143 --> 29:15.065 [SPEAKER_02]: There's also a counter, I think, cultural stereotype. 29:16.946 --> 29:40.021 [SPEAKER_02]: where like husbands are sort of bumbling idiots that they don't really get you emotionally and you're kind of incapable of thinking on the deeper female level and I think guys sometimes believe this of themselves as much as women characterise their husbands but the reality is that you know Christ the husband of the church is 29:41.082 --> 29:50.624 [SPEAKER_02]: beautifully compassionate as you just said so well Elizabeth like and well suited to help us see our problems and see the truth of our life in a compassionate and helpful tone. 29:51.364 --> 30:00.606 [SPEAKER_02]: And as much as husband's ought to aspire to that, I also want to encourage our wives to believe the best of our husbands that they actually might be able to help you. 30:00.646 --> 30:07.287 [SPEAKER_02]: Like they actually might, I know with Lauren and I and we hope to do this, you know, when we say something to the other, 30:08.567 --> 30:32.319 [SPEAKER_02]: it's it might be like super true and we know it so our first reaction is well why but why did you say it like that in that tone instead of giving them to compassion of like I think they're trying their best yeah I think she's trying her best to say this kindly what if I just accept the critique and then instead of being like what you said it sort of mean or at the wrong time or couldn't you anyway but you got to practice that and that's hard yeah because it's a it's a learned thing to receive 30:33.480 --> 30:43.886 [SPEAKER_01]: I think both, we need to learn to receive the very real critique, and we also need the delivery mechanism needs to be better. 30:43.946 --> 30:45.007 [SPEAKER_01]: They both need to be better. 30:45.027 --> 30:47.028 [SPEAKER_01]: We need to receive better than they need to be given better. 30:48.249 --> 30:48.949 [SPEAKER_01]: So, let's do this. 30:48.969 --> 30:49.790 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's go through our five. 30:49.890 --> 30:54.293 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's go through the fusion don'ts to help your spouse deal with their sin. 30:54.713 --> 30:57.818 [SPEAKER_01]: into the author life and this and this really will go both ways for husband and wife. 30:59.019 --> 31:03.005 [SPEAKER_01]: So the first is do ask questions, curious questions. 31:03.045 --> 31:03.907 [SPEAKER_01]: Do ask curious questions. 31:04.027 --> 31:07.171 [SPEAKER_01]: Don't make critical statements. 31:08.193 --> 31:09.094 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's talk about that. 31:09.695 --> 31:11.917 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'll just start us just a little launching pad. 31:13.278 --> 31:22.104 [SPEAKER_01]: Just psychologically, which is always helpful for me to just remember like we do a service to others when we understand how brains and bodies work. 31:22.925 --> 31:26.488 [SPEAKER_01]: And just some of this is also just in knowing how people respond. 31:26.948 --> 31:28.930 [SPEAKER_01]: One thing you can know, we talked about this just the other day. 31:28.950 --> 31:36.435 [SPEAKER_01]: Speaking about a situation we were going back and forth and we were talking about a situation you were dealing with and you were asking how you do with it. 31:37.636 --> 31:43.703 [SPEAKER_01]: And what we were talking about was like, if you ask curious questions, everyone's defenses go way down. 31:43.843 --> 31:44.043 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 31:44.124 --> 31:45.305 [SPEAKER_01]: And have to be sincere, right? 31:45.325 --> 31:47.467 [SPEAKER_01]: Like your spouse knows and can smell from a while away. 31:47.507 --> 31:49.970 [SPEAKER_01]: Is this like you just being snooty and arrogant? 31:50.150 --> 31:52.093 [SPEAKER_01]: Or are you being sincere? 31:52.113 --> 31:54.776 [SPEAKER_01]: But if you can ask questions like, okay, I missed it there. 31:54.876 --> 31:55.316 [SPEAKER_01]: Obviously. 31:56.209 --> 31:59.874 [SPEAKER_01]: what did I miss, the defenses go way down. 31:59.914 --> 32:03.839 [SPEAKER_01]: So just to say, when you are curious, it sets a whole different tone. 32:04.720 --> 32:07.544 [SPEAKER_01]: And it stops a lot of things from getting worse. 32:07.604 --> 32:09.446 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'll just say that, but other thoughts. 32:10.167 --> 32:12.670 [SPEAKER_02]: I see this with Lauren a lot. 32:16.017 --> 32:25.059 [SPEAKER_02]: I think I'm actually at my best and worst in questions because I'm at my best when I ask questions to actually figure out what she meant or intended by something. 32:25.099 --> 32:29.240 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, let's say I got a problem with something that she did and I think she has an area of standard she doesn't see it. 32:29.840 --> 32:31.440 [SPEAKER_02]: There's two ways I can ask questions. 32:32.540 --> 32:38.302 [SPEAKER_02]: The first is the secretic method and she smells it out immediately, he hates it. 32:38.322 --> 32:44.303 [SPEAKER_02]: She's like, you're doing the law school thing for you know what the answer you want is and you're asking me questions in order to get me 32:46.203 --> 32:47.143 [SPEAKER_02]: And so it's not that. 32:48.104 --> 32:57.826 [SPEAKER_02]: The real curious questions are when I'm actually, I think with a little bit of humility wondering, and I write about what I think she's doing. 32:58.066 --> 33:03.527 [SPEAKER_02]: So actually, I don't know, say something like, what did you mean when you said this? 33:03.767 --> 33:05.668 [SPEAKER_02]: Because I don't know if I'm interpreting it right. 33:05.808 --> 33:07.128 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if I even should be hurt yet. 33:07.848 --> 33:16.490 [SPEAKER_02]: It's a genuine curiosity about her sin, of like wondering are you even interpreting the situation, right? 33:16.630 --> 33:21.310 [SPEAKER_02]: Like we've talked through all these episodes about like be curious about your saying, ask good questions. 33:21.430 --> 33:28.032 [SPEAKER_02]: And that kind of question is just way different than saying, you realize when you talk like that, it's arrogant, right? 33:28.652 --> 33:29.872 [SPEAKER_02]: Like that's, you know, that's not a 33:36.232 --> 33:38.274 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I mean, I will speak for myself. 33:38.394 --> 33:40.035 [SPEAKER_00]: This is a huge area of weakness for me. 33:41.136 --> 33:47.961 [SPEAKER_00]: I go straight to intent and criticism, usually because I've waited too long to have the conversation. 33:48.361 --> 33:50.162 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm operating fully out of resentment. 33:51.223 --> 33:57.187 [SPEAKER_00]: And I just feel like I have to blast him for him to actually hear what I'm saying. 33:58.248 --> 34:03.572 [SPEAKER_00]: And yes, sometimes does it take a lot of intensity for us to finally hear each other? 34:03.732 --> 34:04.512 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, sometimes. 34:05.413 --> 34:14.376 [SPEAKER_00]: But I think the path of maturity and growth for us and we're deeply working on it is to ask questions first before attaching intent. 34:14.976 --> 34:19.477 [SPEAKER_00]: And that, again, is really hard for me usually because I play the long narrative. 34:19.897 --> 34:23.479 [SPEAKER_01]: She's good at, like, this is where he's, this is where it started from his origin. 34:23.899 --> 34:25.779 [SPEAKER_01]: This is when he was born and then started here. 34:25.819 --> 34:28.420 [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no, no, no, no, it's the reverse. 34:29.000 --> 34:31.501 [SPEAKER_00]: It's the reverse and this is, this I think is really important. 34:32.628 --> 34:35.273 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, we can harp on sin and we need to. 34:35.434 --> 34:42.347 [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like it's something that growing up in the church, I heard sin talked about on a weekly basis. 34:42.447 --> 34:43.570 [SPEAKER_00]: It was always talked about at youth group. 34:43.590 --> 34:44.512 [SPEAKER_00]: It was talked about everywhere. 34:45.706 --> 34:48.367 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, I feel like it's a word that's hardly used in church. 34:48.667 --> 34:52.047 [SPEAKER_02]: We were commenting on the same thing, but they're certain seasons. 34:52.067 --> 34:54.328 [SPEAKER_02]: And I feel like we're in a season of low, yeah. 34:54.728 --> 34:57.688 [SPEAKER_02]: Sin, uh, in judgment talk, yeah, which is a little dangerous. 34:57.868 --> 34:58.809 [SPEAKER_00]: It absolutely. 34:58.889 --> 34:59.709 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's the opposite. 34:59.749 --> 35:00.049 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. 35:00.409 --> 35:02.889 [SPEAKER_00]: And confession and repentance, so important. 35:03.470 --> 35:09.951 [SPEAKER_00]: So please hear that, but also so often, what is right underneath. 35:11.091 --> 35:18.414 [SPEAKER_00]: are active sending, are lashing out in anger, or pride, or whatever it might be, is some sort of wound. 35:18.854 --> 35:25.257 [SPEAKER_00]: And so so often for me, I have like an early childhood wound of just not feeling seen. 35:25.497 --> 35:28.578 [SPEAKER_00]: I was, I had super intense older brother and sister. 35:28.878 --> 35:29.498 [SPEAKER_01]: They are still intense. 35:29.538 --> 35:30.579 [SPEAKER_00]: They are still really intense. 35:31.339 --> 35:34.140 [SPEAKER_00]: But my role in the family was like, don't be intense. 35:34.300 --> 35:35.180 [SPEAKER_00]: Be the easy one. 35:35.280 --> 35:37.961 [SPEAKER_00]: I got highly praised or not being opinionated. 35:38.382 --> 35:40.682 [SPEAKER_00]: We're going with the flow for being easy. 35:41.523 --> 35:47.085 [SPEAKER_00]: I and turn and wonderful parents who are super encouraging and so many fantastic parents. 35:48.065 --> 35:59.148 [SPEAKER_00]: but I had this whole world inside that was not actually as easy and go with the flow as I felt like I needed to be in order to be perfect and loved. 35:59.328 --> 36:01.309 [SPEAKER_00]: I would have been loved even if I wasn't easy. 36:01.689 --> 36:03.849 [SPEAKER_00]: But somehow I internalized that. 36:04.550 --> 36:15.553 [SPEAKER_00]: So as I've gotten older and we've been married for almost 20 years that for me looks like a deep need to feel seen because I didn't always feel seen when I was a kid. 36:16.873 --> 36:27.219 [SPEAKER_00]: I can fully operate in that wound and then I'm angry at him because he didn't see me well enough and I'm resentful because he's not acknowledging the things that I'm doing. 36:27.459 --> 36:28.159 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 36:28.539 --> 36:33.222 [SPEAKER_01]: And what she was by seeing is not physically seeing her, she means emotionally, emotionally. 36:33.882 --> 36:34.963 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's an important detail. 36:35.003 --> 36:38.745 [SPEAKER_01]: I, you know, that because also with Heisman sometimes, I don't mean to keep going. 36:38.765 --> 36:44.608 [SPEAKER_01]: But I think even helping others, like helping explain to a husband, 36:45.488 --> 36:50.570 [SPEAKER_01]: like you even did is like what did what do you mean by seeing you because I think that can be lost. 36:50.710 --> 36:58.112 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that guys can be practical like I see Justin right now like what do you mean and that's because that's not actually what you mean is not a visual see it's an emotional one. 36:58.132 --> 36:59.412 [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't want to cut you off. 36:59.432 --> 37:05.654 [SPEAKER_01]: I just want to add to that so you think that would be very helpful to you know when I mean by that yeah yeah yeah because I think it is it is a universal 37:09.355 --> 37:21.061 [SPEAKER_00]: thing for most moms, I would say, to be seen in the unseen work that they're doing in a world where it seems like everybody's life is seen and on display and everybody's life is better than the one you're living. 37:22.682 --> 37:31.286 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think husbands can play a very vital role, whether your wife has a wound from it like me or not, to just be able to say, hey, 37:32.741 --> 37:46.726 [SPEAKER_00]: I see that everything you're doing throughout the week, all that you're doing to take care of our kids or work or be involved in the community or whatever it might be, I see that your load is so heavy and I just want you to know, like, it's not going unnoticed. 37:47.726 --> 37:50.507 [SPEAKER_00]: Your wife will feel so loved by that. 37:50.587 --> 37:58.030 [SPEAKER_00]: I think so often husband's feel like if they say that, then they also have to step in and help and do something and rescue sometimes we do need that. 37:58.908 --> 38:04.352 [SPEAKER_00]: But we are to carry each other's burdens, but each one has to carry their own load. 38:04.672 --> 38:13.558 [SPEAKER_00]: And the idea of like, we can come alongside and carry each other's burdens and lighten the load sometimes by just acknowledging that we see the load somebody's carrying. 38:14.398 --> 38:16.120 [SPEAKER_00]: We all feel so loved by that. 38:16.980 --> 38:31.696 [SPEAKER_00]: And so, being able to do that for your wife and to be able to know what her wounds are, like to be vulnerable with enough with each other, or her to be able to say, here's the things that really hurt and you're wife-minded, not even know why. 38:31.876 --> 38:33.117 [SPEAKER_00]: You might not even know why. 38:33.258 --> 38:37.602 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, when you look at me with that face, I don't know why, but it makes me so angry. 38:38.083 --> 38:38.263 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, 38:38.483 --> 38:39.905 [SPEAKER_01]: your face makes me feel hungry. 38:40.266 --> 38:41.227 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 38:41.407 --> 38:42.349 [SPEAKER_00]: No, that's your tone. 38:42.449 --> 38:43.350 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know. 38:43.410 --> 38:44.432 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what it is. 38:44.452 --> 38:45.053 [SPEAKER_01]: Your presence. 38:45.073 --> 38:46.194 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think about yours. 38:46.214 --> 38:46.935 [SPEAKER_00]: Just don't look at me. 38:47.196 --> 38:48.177 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 38:48.317 --> 38:49.259 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 38:49.499 --> 38:50.441 [SPEAKER_02]: But does that make sense? 38:50.741 --> 38:51.422 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, it makes sense. 38:51.462 --> 38:51.863 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 38:52.023 --> 38:54.226 [SPEAKER_02]: I also, I think. 38:54.987 --> 38:55.487 [SPEAKER_02]: for Lauren. 38:55.647 --> 38:57.909 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm talking out on a lot of bridges on this show. 38:57.929 --> 38:58.769 [SPEAKER_02]: So which Lauren is here? 39:00.470 --> 39:05.213 [SPEAKER_02]: I suspect she feels the most seen when I ask her questions, actually. 39:05.413 --> 39:05.613 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 39:05.713 --> 39:11.437 [SPEAKER_02]: When I'm like, is this been hard for you or like, it could be as simple as tell me about your day. 39:11.457 --> 39:12.037 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 39:12.237 --> 39:14.579 [SPEAKER_02]: But as deep as 39:16.833 --> 39:21.275 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, tell me about why it's particularly difficult in this season. 39:21.475 --> 39:22.435 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 39:22.455 --> 39:31.278 [SPEAKER_02]: I honestly don't really see her until I ask questions, which is why I think this first do adult is so important because it's, we're super inclined to make statements to our spouse. 39:31.599 --> 39:31.879 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 39:32.039 --> 39:36.500 [SPEAKER_02]: Or probably always better when we're asking questions so that they can feel seen. 39:37.301 --> 39:37.541 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 39:37.621 --> 39:40.922 [SPEAKER_02]: And so that we can make sure that we're seeing rightly before we can give a suggestion. 39:40.942 --> 39:43.403 [SPEAKER_02]: Um, actually understand what they're going to do. 39:43.663 --> 39:46.525 [SPEAKER_01]: And phrases like you always, that's not true. 39:46.945 --> 39:47.826 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly. 39:48.026 --> 39:53.449 [SPEAKER_01]: But I mean, these phrases make things, I feel like you, like that's bad. 39:53.469 --> 39:54.690 [SPEAKER_01]: I do all these. 39:54.810 --> 39:55.931 [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of them behind them. 39:56.091 --> 39:57.251 [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like you always. 39:57.271 --> 39:58.552 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, exactly. 39:58.592 --> 39:58.933 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 39:58.953 --> 39:59.733 [SPEAKER_02]: So those words are bad. 39:59.753 --> 40:01.274 [SPEAKER_02]: Which by the way is unreffutable. 40:01.454 --> 40:02.775 [SPEAKER_02]: Because you're like, why don't I always do that. 40:02.795 --> 40:04.216 [SPEAKER_02]: But I feel like you always do that. 40:04.236 --> 40:04.456 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 40:04.476 --> 40:05.176 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, there's no more. 40:05.376 --> 40:06.297 [SPEAKER_00]: You must always. 40:06.937 --> 40:10.740 [SPEAKER_00]: OK, I will say, though, a phrase that unlocks so much. 40:11.981 --> 40:17.005 [SPEAKER_00]: Not just in marriage, but all my gosh in parenting and in parenting teenagers specifically. 40:17.225 --> 40:18.146 [SPEAKER_02]: From all please. 40:18.679 --> 40:24.021 [SPEAKER_00]: is, and it's a long line of asking curious questions, is when you're reflecting like, oh, she's going to say, do you know what she's like? 40:24.241 --> 40:29.183 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah, saying I see that this, you're really overwhelmed in this season of mother. 40:29.223 --> 40:38.346 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like say that for an example, or you teenager, I see that you're really angry about the fact that I said, no, you can't go to that friend house in midnight, whatever it might be. 40:38.786 --> 40:41.147 [SPEAKER_00]: But then when you add, do I have that right? 40:42.775 --> 40:48.179 [SPEAKER_00]: because that gives them an opportunity to even process like, is what they're saying, right? 40:48.259 --> 40:51.181 [SPEAKER_00]: Is that what I'm feeling and be able to express to you? 40:51.341 --> 40:52.482 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, yes, you got it. 40:52.742 --> 40:54.864 [SPEAKER_00]: And like with our teenagers, it's always yes. 40:55.104 --> 40:56.725 [SPEAKER_00]: And then they'll say more. 40:56.785 --> 40:58.186 [SPEAKER_00]: They'll share more of their heart. 40:58.327 --> 40:58.747 [SPEAKER_00]: Interesting. 40:58.807 --> 41:06.493 [SPEAKER_00]: And it shows like not only am I trying to see you and what is happening and trying to understand what's happening for you and how you're feeling. 41:07.213 --> 41:15.175 [SPEAKER_00]: But it's also this inviting statement of like I really want to know and if I if I'm not seeing Yeah, I'd love for you to tell me right now. 41:15.195 --> 41:16.835 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's not defensive. 41:16.955 --> 41:32.739 [SPEAKER_00]: It like completely disarms And I will say it's been it's probably the primary tool when our teenagers are dysregulated or upset about something If we can stay calm enough, it's the most effective thing that you could possibly do. 41:33.279 --> 41:35.000 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I think I usually use a bad 41:38.762 --> 42:01.682 [SPEAKER_01]: But do I have that right, but do I have that right, but do I have that right, do you realize when you say I mean just even hear that right like am I wrong means now they have to like counter you can counter to fight yeah, do I have that right, you know is curious it's helpful in that it's just this so different because then there I can kind of answer however I want yeah, but 42:02.503 --> 42:03.164 [SPEAKER_01]: also be prepared. 42:03.204 --> 42:08.813 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's just tell you the other the other shot side of that idea is sometimes there may be like, uh, do I have the right? 42:08.833 --> 42:17.867 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you have the right and I'm angry at you and the trust like it can open that door and and I honestly think within very within reason. 42:19.053 --> 42:20.134 [SPEAKER_01]: That's so important. 42:20.434 --> 42:30.661 [SPEAKER_01]: We grew up in a generation where I grew up in a home in a situation, but I think a lot, generationally, there's just a lot of squashing of emotions because big emotions make other people feel big emotions. 42:30.821 --> 42:34.724 [SPEAKER_01]: So then we get scared of our kids being honest, they need to be hurt. 42:34.784 --> 42:35.684 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not great at this. 42:35.744 --> 42:36.765 [SPEAKER_01]: Like I still am learning. 42:37.245 --> 42:38.766 [SPEAKER_01]: My kids feel big, it makes me feel big. 42:39.987 --> 42:40.607 [SPEAKER_01]: stop. 42:41.208 --> 42:46.670 [SPEAKER_01]: But if you can get past that, I think that question even with your spouse is so helpful. 42:46.710 --> 42:48.410 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, do I have that right? 42:49.271 --> 42:53.612 [SPEAKER_01]: You give them an opportunity, an honor, a respect to give you clarity. 42:53.953 --> 42:54.093 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 42:54.113 --> 42:54.933 [SPEAKER_01]: So I think that's important. 42:55.333 --> 43:02.080 [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to move these to this place too, but if not, we'll be here all day and we'd be happy too, but we have things going on. 43:02.140 --> 43:08.786 [SPEAKER_01]: So number two, do initiate conversation, don't stew in silence. 43:09.387 --> 43:19.417 [SPEAKER_01]: So kind of Elizabeth, what you said a little bit of like, you know, we all have different pitfalls tendencies, yours tendency as you kind of already stated, and I'll speak to you. 43:19.837 --> 43:22.640 [SPEAKER_01]: would be to stew in silence before the conversation. 43:22.720 --> 43:22.941 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 43:23.301 --> 43:31.009 [SPEAKER_01]: So my question because this is actually like, this is actually part of our dynamic, but I think for so many listening, this could be their dynamic or versions of it. 43:33.368 --> 43:56.865 [SPEAKER_01]: Why, I'm just going to ask you this, I should ask you this in private too, but I'll just ask you in public, let's just do it, let's just do it in private, let's just do it in private, let's just do it in private, let's just do it in private, let's just do it in private, let's just do it in private, let's just do it in private, let's just do it in private, let's just do it in private, let's just do it in private, let's just do it in private, let's just do it in private, let's just do it in private, let's just do it in private, let's just do it in private, let's just do it in private, let's just do it in private, let's just do it in private, let's just do it in private, let's just do it in private, let's just do it in private, let's just do it in private, let's just do it in private, let's just do 43:58.614 --> 44:00.335 [SPEAKER_00]: maybe full voli honest. 44:00.975 --> 44:02.776 [SPEAKER_01]: No, Parsley would be great for the podcast. 44:02.796 --> 44:04.437 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I don't really eager to play. 44:04.457 --> 44:04.877 [SPEAKER_02]: Don't worry. 44:04.897 --> 44:06.098 [SPEAKER_01]: Just a man. 44:07.139 --> 44:07.819 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm really eager. 44:07.999 --> 44:10.420 [SPEAKER_01]: No, you're not going to be a friend. 44:10.440 --> 44:11.701 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a popcorn. 44:12.521 --> 44:13.002 [SPEAKER_02]: We'll be back. 44:13.882 --> 44:14.602 [SPEAKER_02]: This is great. 44:14.622 --> 44:16.583 [SPEAKER_00]: It's going to go become a nice and therapist while we're talking. 44:17.744 --> 44:23.548 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, actually, I think this is going to be easy because I also totally stew in silence against Lauren. 44:24.308 --> 44:30.152 [SPEAKER_02]: So this funny, so I can, yeah, I'm kind of curious if you do it for the same reasons as, as maybe if you don't mind. 44:30.172 --> 44:32.013 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no, I've, yes, do after all. 44:32.193 --> 44:32.673 [SPEAKER_00]: Two reasons. 44:33.934 --> 44:37.656 [SPEAKER_00]: One is because conflict is incredibly draining to me. 44:37.997 --> 44:43.920 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, not, I mean, I grew up in a home where healthy conflict was modeled left and right. 44:44.340 --> 44:45.361 [SPEAKER_00]: We were not a conflict for 44:47.182 --> 45:05.537 [SPEAKER_00]: six very passionate individuals, there was lots of conflict, but lots of working through conflict and forgiveness, so I'm not afraid of conflict, but it is exhausting to me and just given the nature of life and our story and chronic illness, I'm chronically exhausted. 45:05.637 --> 45:11.522 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's like having the energy to just not knowing how much conflict there will be to work it out. 45:11.642 --> 45:12.063 [SPEAKER_00]: That's one. 45:13.844 --> 45:24.950 [SPEAKER_00]: And then I think just given the nature of your story, sometimes it feels unpredictable, how you're going to respond. 45:25.470 --> 45:29.392 [SPEAKER_00]: And this is that idea of believing in your spouse's goodwill. 45:29.813 --> 45:29.973 [SPEAKER_00]: And 45:31.569 --> 45:39.735 [SPEAKER_00]: understanding that who you married five years ago, 10 years ago, 20 years ago, is not fully who you're married to now. 45:40.055 --> 45:41.696 [SPEAKER_00]: People grow and change. 45:42.757 --> 45:49.782 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think sometimes I'm hesitant because I'm expecting the 10 years ago version of your response. 45:50.322 --> 45:53.605 [SPEAKER_01]: which was more immature, more angry, more outward, yeah. 45:54.145 --> 46:02.172 [SPEAKER_00]: And then I see you slowly more and more having beautiful responses, and it's me who's waited too long. 46:03.153 --> 46:15.463 [SPEAKER_00]: And then I also had, I think, I'm now afraid of my own resentment and what comes out in how I express my frustration that sometimes I'll wait because I'm like, I don't know 46:17.905 --> 46:18.905 [SPEAKER_00]: to do it in a healthy way. 46:19.425 --> 46:21.606 [SPEAKER_00]: None of those are good reasons to wait. 46:23.086 --> 46:28.408 [SPEAKER_00]: But I think, again, that idea of like really knowing your spouse, if he knows that about me. 46:28.588 --> 46:35.330 [SPEAKER_00]: And so he can work to become more gentle in how he responds, knowing it's hard for me to bring something. 46:35.490 --> 46:39.711 [SPEAKER_00]: And I can know that I've heard him for years and years and years of just attacking. 46:40.631 --> 46:42.492 [SPEAKER_00]: And he grew up in an unpredictable home. 46:43.172 --> 46:46.175 [SPEAKER_00]: And so that immediately puts them on the defenses. 46:46.315 --> 46:47.156 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 46:47.476 --> 46:56.545 [SPEAKER_00]: But I would say those are like the main reason that I hold back and then end up not, it doesn't help in any way to hold back. 46:57.500 --> 47:01.341 [SPEAKER_02]: I relate to that a lot, but I also have one question, first I do relate. 47:01.901 --> 47:18.105 [SPEAKER_02]: I think one of my great mistakes in our marriage that is very ongoing and very current is that as much as I go first or lead or initiate in many places of our marriage, whether it's like spiritually in the home or devotional or we ought to do this or let's go this direction of our family. 47:19.566 --> 47:25.669 [SPEAKER_02]: I will definitely stew on conflict instead of going to Lauren quickly with what I'm mad about. 47:26.490 --> 47:32.293 [SPEAKER_02]: She calls it, she calls it withdrawn or something's wrong. 47:32.313 --> 47:33.053 [SPEAKER_02]: I know something's wrong. 47:33.073 --> 47:36.855 [SPEAKER_02]: You've been quiet for a whole day or more in an early marriage. 47:37.276 --> 47:38.076 [SPEAKER_02]: It would be days. 47:38.436 --> 47:38.657 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 47:40.983 --> 47:42.544 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's just rotten. 47:42.685 --> 47:44.446 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, there's no justification for it. 47:44.466 --> 47:45.747 [SPEAKER_02]: But I did have one question about it. 47:46.068 --> 47:59.619 [SPEAKER_02]: I do think sometimes I think I need to figure out how to say this right, less I say it wrong and find the right moment to bring it out and not say it at a time where it's gonna come out in anger. 47:59.639 --> 48:04.504 [SPEAKER_02]: So I think sometimes I justify a little bit by being like, I actually need to be wise about the way I go about this. 48:04.664 --> 48:04.864 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 48:04.984 --> 48:05.364 [SPEAKER_00]: Which is good. 48:05.384 --> 48:08.626 [SPEAKER_02]: Do you think there is like some place for that for people like you not? 48:08.686 --> 48:09.246 [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely. 48:09.486 --> 48:15.169 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because if we're just immediately the minute it comes to mind, we're like, we gotta talk about it right now. 48:15.189 --> 48:16.510 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's also bad. 48:16.570 --> 48:23.173 [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes after you sit with it, you might recognize actually like, I'm overreacting it actually wasn't. 48:23.253 --> 48:23.513 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. 48:23.753 --> 48:27.855 [SPEAKER_00]: As big as I thought it was, or you know what, he's just having a bad day and like, we have to give. 48:27.975 --> 48:28.896 [SPEAKER_00]: He was always interested. 48:28.916 --> 48:32.578 [SPEAKER_00]: For our spouses to have a bad day, or be stressed, you know? 48:33.498 --> 48:35.319 [SPEAKER_02]: He's been having a listen just in all day. 48:35.499 --> 48:36.860 [SPEAKER_02]: He's just, I mean, poor guy. 48:36.940 --> 48:38.521 [SPEAKER_02]: I've just given him the chance. 48:38.642 --> 48:40.443 [SPEAKER_02]: Just give him the guy some great. 48:40.483 --> 48:40.723 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 48:41.063 --> 48:50.009 [SPEAKER_02]: But I do think it's important to know that I self here, because I think like maybe 20% of the time, there's a good impulse to be like. 48:50.450 --> 48:50.690 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 48:51.130 --> 48:53.231 [SPEAKER_02]: be slow to speak and quick to listen. 48:53.391 --> 48:56.693 [SPEAKER_02]: I think I have a criticism, but do I do I really let's just think of it? 48:57.153 --> 49:11.741 [SPEAKER_02]: But but 80% of the time I do think that I'm, I'll find myself a day or two later narrating in my head why she's wrong about something or why I'm right about something and I'm like, oh, I'm having a conversation with the wrong person. 49:12.301 --> 49:15.343 [SPEAKER_02]: It's either the enemy in my head like little spiritual warfare. 49:15.423 --> 49:18.184 [SPEAKER_02]: Like I'm talking to the enemy about my wife. 49:19.405 --> 49:20.806 [SPEAKER_02]: that's an awful idea. 49:20.826 --> 49:38.654 [SPEAKER_02]: It's also just evil or I'm just talking to myself about it and that's not helpful either and I would commend listeners to be a little bit less like me in this case and just try to find how to quickly go to your spouse and ask a good question or or say this and actually I think hope this is helpful and curious if you guys agree. 49:40.995 --> 49:59.343 [SPEAKER_02]: You need to give your spouse permission to not say it right the first time, because it's often like who does anything hard right the first time and like marriage is so much about practice and you know, I often have to ask Lauren for this, but I and I also need to do it to her is that of course, 49:59.463 --> 50:02.064 [SPEAKER_02]: course when they bring up a problem, they're not going to say it right the first time. 50:02.084 --> 50:04.084 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, of course, the terms I'm going to be perfect the first time. 50:04.444 --> 50:04.544 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 50:04.564 --> 50:06.865 [SPEAKER_02]: So I think we need to be patient enough to be like, yes. 50:06.945 --> 50:09.766 [SPEAKER_02]: I see that you're trying here and you're really hurting my feelings. 50:10.046 --> 50:12.086 [SPEAKER_02]: Do you want to just try one more time like that? 50:12.206 --> 50:13.047 [SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't say that. 50:13.207 --> 50:17.288 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I can only agree so much and back to the pride thing. 50:18.508 --> 50:37.350 [SPEAKER_01]: I've heard it said that perfectionism is is pride dressed up and it's that idea that it's just looks real good, but man that that idea like even with art some of our kids like They have a hard time when they do something for the first time and they're not really good at it and then it kind of will give up before they keep going right 50:37.930 --> 50:42.872 [SPEAKER_00]: No, it's literally just talking to one of them, like, you have to be bad at something before you can be like, it's worth it. 50:42.912 --> 50:46.094 [SPEAKER_01]: Nobody's that you've dialed, like, no, nothing in life works like that. 50:46.114 --> 50:50.356 [SPEAKER_00]: I was just, right, literally driving here listening to something listening to an audio book. 50:50.496 --> 50:54.478 [SPEAKER_00]: And he said that perfectionism is the enemy of good. 50:55.293 --> 50:55.493 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 50:55.973 --> 50:59.535 [SPEAKER_00]: And like that idea of like we want to have good communication in our image. 50:59.635 --> 51:01.335 [SPEAKER_00]: You're not going to have perfect communication. 51:01.375 --> 51:03.136 [SPEAKER_00]: It's just not possible this side of heaven. 51:03.236 --> 51:03.516 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 51:03.576 --> 51:09.558 [SPEAKER_00]: But if you're trying to just wait for the right moment to say it perfectly and make sure they respond perfectly or you're going to freak out and never try again. 51:09.578 --> 51:13.180 [SPEAKER_00]: And you're never going to actually be able to work towards good. 51:13.780 --> 51:23.550 [SPEAKER_02]: And you can wiggle your way out of any critique from your spouse by saying, well, you didn't say that right or you didn't say it kindly or your tone was off a course of what's like, this is hard business bringing your sin to you. 51:23.790 --> 51:24.031 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 51:24.171 --> 51:30.177 [SPEAKER_02]: So I didn't give them permission to try to read three times and realize we're not going to say the critique perfectly. 51:30.958 --> 51:35.883 [SPEAKER_02]: It now is on you to be like, can I hear the kernel of truth even though it shrouded in all the pain and hurt and that. 51:36.583 --> 51:38.664 [SPEAKER_02]: In the imperfections of language it's just hard. 51:39.024 --> 51:41.105 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, so hard, but don't be silent right now. 51:41.225 --> 51:42.225 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, do initiate. 51:42.825 --> 51:50.087 [SPEAKER_01]: Don't do in silence and Apply that where you will everyone has a different dynamic and it's real. 51:50.147 --> 51:55.989 [SPEAKER_01]: So number three and this is a very important to and don't do speak life. 51:56.930 --> 51:57.810 [SPEAKER_01]: Don't speak death. 51:58.530 --> 51:59.951 [SPEAKER_01]: Death and life are in the part of the tongue. 52:00.191 --> 52:03.633 [SPEAKER_01]: This is very clear in scriptures, but I will say this. 52:04.413 --> 52:06.094 [SPEAKER_01]: We're generation starving for blessing. 52:06.174 --> 52:13.318 [SPEAKER_01]: We need it and we are so quick to highlight the bad and to withhold the good. 52:14.378 --> 52:17.821 [SPEAKER_01]: When you withhold good intentionally as a way of punishing, that is wrong. 52:18.141 --> 52:18.941 [SPEAKER_01]: It's evil. 52:18.981 --> 52:19.522 [SPEAKER_01]: It's mean. 52:19.582 --> 52:20.503 [SPEAKER_01]: It's addictive. 52:20.543 --> 52:21.703 [SPEAKER_01]: It's so unkind. 52:21.803 --> 52:25.746 [SPEAKER_01]: Because we have to remember that it's not just speaking the wrong words. 52:25.906 --> 52:27.007 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not speaking words. 52:27.227 --> 52:28.789 [SPEAKER_01]: Both are negative and hurtful. 52:28.889 --> 52:31.851 [SPEAKER_01]: So you can do just as much damage by not saying anything. 52:32.311 --> 52:34.573 [SPEAKER_01]: Just as much as you can by saying the wrong thing. 52:34.593 --> 52:35.974 [SPEAKER_01]: So don't think that silence isn't. 52:36.594 --> 52:38.095 [SPEAKER_01]: You're in the clear because you don't say anything. 52:38.776 --> 52:39.676 [SPEAKER_01]: Both are damaging. 52:40.317 --> 52:42.959 [SPEAKER_01]: It's our job to speak life and help people in their journey. 52:43.539 --> 53:07.146 [SPEAKER_01]: There's a verse that talks about basically it's one of our jobs as believers to help those who feel themselves inadequate and the idea is that so many of us feel inadequate and one of our jobs as believers with our words we speak life into people to help people feel adequate because if you're honest just an if I'm honest if Elizabeth you're honest we have so many areas that 53:12.848 --> 53:15.630 [SPEAKER_01]: And most of the time we're not generous with ourselves. 53:15.850 --> 53:17.771 [SPEAKER_01]: So they get a self-talk gets going. 53:18.111 --> 53:22.574 [SPEAKER_01]: And actually, we become far worse in our own heads than maybe we even are in reality. 53:22.634 --> 53:22.834 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 53:23.194 --> 53:24.575 [SPEAKER_01]: Some of you do have that reversed. 53:24.675 --> 53:27.036 [SPEAKER_01]: By the way, some of you are actually far worse from reality than you are in your head. 53:27.076 --> 53:27.857 [SPEAKER_01]: That's another problem. 53:27.897 --> 53:28.357 [SPEAKER_01]: Again, pride. 53:29.157 --> 53:33.901 [SPEAKER_01]: And you're hard to live with, and you've probably gotten that feedback, but for most of you haven't heard it. 53:34.041 --> 53:34.242 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 53:34.802 --> 53:35.022 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 53:35.122 --> 53:36.143 [SPEAKER_01]: You've got it. 53:36.483 --> 53:37.124 [SPEAKER_01]: It's been told you. 53:37.144 --> 53:39.226 [SPEAKER_01]: You showed up to your family, wasn't there? 53:39.246 --> 53:39.926 [SPEAKER_01]: Where is everybody? 53:40.066 --> 53:40.627 [SPEAKER_01]: You weren't listening. 53:40.647 --> 53:57.201 [SPEAKER_01]: So that said though, it is actually so important that as a spouse, you speak life, but it is primarily because your spouse is the main person that helps you feel like an adequate father, like an adequate mother. 53:57.721 --> 54:03.987 [SPEAKER_01]: And if you withhold, you're doing damage to yourself and to your family and it's your job to speak life and set it death. 54:04.047 --> 54:08.131 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I can't say enough about this, but like in marriage, especially so important. 54:08.151 --> 54:12.255 [SPEAKER_01]: They've all the relationships with your wife, your kids immensely important. 54:12.555 --> 54:12.755 [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm. 54:14.457 --> 54:15.558 [SPEAKER_00]: Makes me as thinking of 54:16.828 --> 54:19.910 [SPEAKER_00]: that idea of like inadequacy that we all feel. 54:19.930 --> 54:24.852 [SPEAKER_00]: And our first response to that is like, I'm not enough, I'm less than. 54:25.813 --> 54:38.079 [SPEAKER_00]: And then I have kind of like a scripture, I just live in just as a part of my story is when you hear Paul pleading with God to remove his weakness. 54:38.099 --> 54:42.121 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't even fully know what it was, like at least some sort of illness that like greatly impacted him. 54:43.142 --> 54:45.463 [SPEAKER_00]: Please with God three times, God doesn't take it away. 54:46.324 --> 54:56.117 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's a beautiful passage, but at the end of it, just as he said, I will rather boast in my weakness, so that God can be glorified. 54:56.838 --> 55:01.425 [SPEAKER_00]: I think even with that speaking life, like it's a spouse, we see our spouse's weakest part. 55:02.346 --> 55:08.830 [SPEAKER_00]: But even speaking directly into those and saying like that's actually where God can be the absolute strongest. 55:08.850 --> 55:19.417 [SPEAKER_00]: I think especially women, we can speak that into our husbands to help dismantle some of that pride that is just protecting the shame that they feel about the areas they already know that they're weak. 55:19.977 --> 55:25.361 [SPEAKER_00]: But even speaking God's truth and God's life into like you don't have to be a perfect father. 55:25.741 --> 55:27.803 [SPEAKER_00]: just because you feel like you filled in this area. 55:28.603 --> 55:31.125 [SPEAKER_00]: Look at what it got is doing in the midst of your weakness. 55:32.066 --> 55:51.720 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think we have that beautiful like inside view as a spouse to be able to speak life right into the weakest parts and remind our spouse they don't actually have to be adequate and strong all the time and crush it at owning a business and being a dad and doing like they just need to let God into the weakest 55:56.363 --> 56:12.030 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think speaking life can look like encouragement and building each other up and I think you can also look like speaking straight, truth and scripture so that we can help our each other believe what God says is true about us. 56:12.911 --> 56:16.012 [SPEAKER_00]: And in a really specific way, not in a like 56:16.252 --> 56:18.214 [SPEAKER_00]: Just remember how do you identity's in Christ? 56:18.634 --> 56:20.316 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, that sounds great. 56:20.336 --> 56:21.257 [SPEAKER_01]: That is disgusting. 56:21.277 --> 56:23.439 [SPEAKER_01]: I want you to understand that too. 56:23.459 --> 56:24.780 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, isn't real thing? 56:24.900 --> 56:28.503 [SPEAKER_01]: I would be like, I don't know, like, true statement. 56:28.563 --> 56:30.746 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, but like, be real. 56:30.826 --> 56:32.027 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my gosh, never can I. 56:32.047 --> 56:34.949 [SPEAKER_00]: But like, be really, really specific about the words of life. 56:35.850 --> 56:39.153 [SPEAKER_00]: And can you imagine, like, if we're doing that for each other all the time? 56:40.154 --> 56:49.862 [SPEAKER_00]: And then we have like one thing we need to say that's like a little bit hard, but our spouse so knows that we are for them and that we see so much good in them, be so much easier to receive. 56:50.062 --> 56:51.584 [SPEAKER_02]: That's a strong point. 56:51.624 --> 57:02.593 [SPEAKER_02]: I think when we are doing the affirmative work of encouragement regularly in marriage, the criticism that we have becomes a lot easier because it's surrounded by all these other things. 57:02.893 --> 57:17.484 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think Lauren and I are best when we're doing what we did at the beginning of marriage actually and that is seeing who the other is becoming and speaking towards that rather than just taking shots at who you are now. 57:17.685 --> 57:20.146 [SPEAKER_02]: I always counsel guys to think about 57:20.907 --> 57:25.289 [SPEAKER_02]: finding a wife or deciding whether to marry somebody, is don't ask them, do I want to marry this person? 57:25.329 --> 57:28.270 [SPEAKER_02]: As to, I want to marry who God is making this person. 57:28.290 --> 57:33.932 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, can you see the woman that God is bringing out of this girl? 57:36.233 --> 57:40.574 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think like that's how I looked at Lauren or, you know, that's why I wanted to marry her. 57:40.734 --> 57:42.535 [SPEAKER_02]: Because I was like, oh, I see a ton of flaws. 57:43.215 --> 57:44.777 [SPEAKER_02]: here, but I can see who she's becoming. 57:45.618 --> 57:49.422 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's what gets lost in the fights and frustrations of marriage. 57:49.462 --> 58:01.896 [SPEAKER_02]: And I see like she's just this problem instead of like, no, wait, I want to speak to her about this as the version of I think the Lord is doing this in you or like wants to call you here. 58:03.197 --> 58:05.177 [SPEAKER_02]: And she would do that for me too. 58:05.217 --> 58:23.601 [SPEAKER_02]: I think there's been really, really crucial times in our marriage where I've actually not seen what God was doing and she's been like, I think he's, this is how he's working in this struggle and it's been incredibly helpful to me because she sees who I'm becoming, not just the criticism that could be levied right now. 58:24.201 --> 58:25.981 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's just a really different method of criticism. 58:26.541 --> 58:28.421 [SPEAKER_02]: We do actually do this with our boys too. 58:33.185 --> 58:45.619 [SPEAKER_02]: say I have seen you be diligent like and I see like the best part of you like this is who you're becoming like I want you to lean into this I want to call you forward because right here I see you not living up to who who you're becoming. 58:46.439 --> 58:51.585 [SPEAKER_02]: That's pretty formal language I don't say exactly like that to them but you kind of get the point like speaking to who they're becoming. 58:53.767 --> 59:00.932 [SPEAKER_01]: So speaking death's pretty obvious, that's a lot of different phrases of death and destruction. 59:00.952 --> 59:02.413 [SPEAKER_01]: So we don't need to keep going there. 59:02.433 --> 59:04.855 [SPEAKER_01]: I think we all are pretty aware of what that's like. 59:05.396 --> 59:07.297 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's the third one. 59:07.777 --> 59:10.339 [SPEAKER_01]: Fourth, do believe the best. 59:10.639 --> 59:12.140 [SPEAKER_01]: Don't assume the worst. 59:13.101 --> 59:30.747 [SPEAKER_01]: In Mirages is so important, Elizabeth, you had already said, and these kind of have a building effect, these things we're talking about, but you had talked about and said, you know, the person that you married me ten years ago versus me now is hopefully as you're on the journey with Jesus and formation and growth of as a person. 59:31.187 --> 59:32.668 [SPEAKER_01]: you're different in hopefully a better way. 59:33.288 --> 59:43.732 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think it's important to remember we do so much damage when we assume that our spouse is going to have that response. 59:44.353 --> 59:45.313 [SPEAKER_01]: They're always going to be this way. 59:45.333 --> 59:51.696 [SPEAKER_01]: You're never going to change like that is a different version more psychological of speaking death. 59:51.756 --> 59:53.396 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's just assuming they're never going to change. 59:53.456 --> 59:54.457 [SPEAKER_01]: It's always going to be what it is. 59:54.477 --> 59:54.657 [SPEAKER_01]: And so 59:56.077 --> 01:00:02.122 [SPEAKER_01]: But when we get to that spot of like assuming the worst, the worst does happen because we start responding. 01:00:02.242 --> 01:00:03.082 [SPEAKER_01]: We don't even try. 01:00:03.703 --> 01:00:06.265 [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's a weird, almost like self-fulfilling prophecy. 01:00:06.305 --> 01:00:10.588 [SPEAKER_01]: When we just focus on, I bet you they're doing this, I bet you they meant that. 01:00:10.628 --> 01:00:17.293 [SPEAKER_01]: I bet like that literally then becomes this world to where you are not gracious anymore because they've become an enemy in your head. 01:00:18.414 --> 01:00:26.961 [SPEAKER_01]: And some of this stuff they're doing through probably, but it's probably not as bad as you're assuming we never assume the best of others or ourselves, and so it's dangerous. 01:00:27.041 --> 01:00:38.889 [SPEAKER_00]: Can I say one thing to husbands, and I don't know if this is universal, I don't know if it's specific to you and I, but I think it maybe leaves a little more broad. 01:00:40.370 --> 01:00:43.513 [SPEAKER_00]: It is so helpful when you, 01:00:45.330 --> 01:00:47.571 [SPEAKER_00]: are willing to just admit. 01:00:47.591 --> 01:00:48.391 [SPEAKER_01]: You're saying me? 01:00:48.511 --> 01:00:49.051 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. 01:00:50.052 --> 01:00:54.353 [SPEAKER_00]: When you're just willing to admit, like, yeah, I know I'm being too rough with you. 01:00:54.373 --> 01:01:03.317 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm being too rough with the kids, or like to give a little window that you know and you see the thing I'm trying to say or trying to talk to you about. 01:01:04.706 --> 01:01:06.968 [SPEAKER_00]: It immediately, and again, this could be how I'm wired. 01:01:07.728 --> 01:01:09.349 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't need you to fix it today. 01:01:09.369 --> 01:01:12.151 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't need you to have done it perfectly. 01:01:12.251 --> 01:01:13.512 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't need you to fix it tomorrow. 01:01:14.413 --> 01:01:21.258 [SPEAKER_00]: I just need to know that, like, you see what I'm talking about and that it's, I don't need to keep trying to point it out to you. 01:01:21.958 --> 01:01:33.907 [SPEAKER_00]: It is the most disarming, like loving, humble thing to just say, yeah, I was way too rough, or whatever it is, or I was unthoughtful. 01:01:34.107 --> 01:01:43.894 [SPEAKER_00]: And how I said that, like just a little like admission, which I understand is like, from your perspective, you're probably afraid of what's on the other side of that. 01:01:43.934 --> 01:01:46.936 [SPEAKER_00]: If I admit that, we're just going to blast me. 01:01:47.297 --> 01:01:48.637 [SPEAKER_00]: But I will speak for myself. 01:01:49.558 --> 01:01:58.542 [SPEAKER_00]: It is the most freeing, disarming thing because I feel like sometimes I get into that blasphemy because I'm just trying to get him to say, I see it. 01:01:59.522 --> 01:02:04.004 [SPEAKER_00]: And he's protecting because he's afraid if he says he sees it, I'm just going to come out in more. 01:02:04.764 --> 01:02:05.885 [SPEAKER_00]: But I think there's something 01:02:07.033 --> 01:02:18.837 [SPEAKER_00]: I think of all the women that we talk to in the work that we do that are just distraught over wishing their husbands would lead more or be involved more or initiate more. 01:02:19.037 --> 01:02:21.558 [SPEAKER_00]: If that's you listening and that's the dynamic with your wife. 01:02:21.718 --> 01:02:28.680 [SPEAKER_00]: If you just tell her, like, hey, I recognize I don't know what to do, so I'm not doing anything. 01:02:29.320 --> 01:02:44.408 [SPEAKER_00]: like just saying that is the most disarming like okay we've got something we can let me help you let's work through this together let's remember easier yeah yeah yeah like that and again I could be speaking for our dynamic but I don't think so I think 01:02:45.529 --> 01:02:59.422 [SPEAKER_00]: Again, to that like God-given role, it's like it activates it instead of it activates the spirit filled version of it instead of like, I gotta keep helping till he sees it, which is just the fleshly version of, I want him to see that I'm right. 01:03:00.143 --> 01:03:00.803 [SPEAKER_00]: Does that make sense? 01:03:01.164 --> 01:03:01.624 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 01:03:01.865 --> 01:03:03.126 [SPEAKER_02]: It sounds... 01:03:04.998 --> 01:03:08.820 [SPEAKER_02]: what I'm processing it hopefully that hoping that this will help other does listening. 01:03:09.541 --> 01:03:12.542 [SPEAKER_02]: That's hard for me, but not for good reasons. 01:03:12.582 --> 01:03:22.348 [SPEAKER_02]: It's hard for me because I'm, you know, I'm afraid that if I show weakness and that's where the person goes in for the kill. 01:03:22.448 --> 01:03:24.209 [SPEAKER_02]: Even though like that's not who's right. 01:03:24.249 --> 01:03:24.590 [SPEAKER_02]: She's not. 01:03:25.110 --> 01:03:25.370 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 01:03:25.490 --> 01:03:28.512 [SPEAKER_02]: Which is, which this even processing it out loud makes me realize. 01:03:29.873 --> 01:03:43.559 [SPEAKER_02]: That's again spiritual warfare in my head that I can't I can't admit the wrong here not quite yet because I'll get killed for it when actually and you said this at the beginning of the episode Elizabeth it 01:03:45.086 --> 01:03:49.308 [SPEAKER_02]: marriage is the person who sees all your faults, but loves you anyway. 01:03:49.668 --> 01:03:50.468 [SPEAKER_02]: Is the opposite? 01:03:50.508 --> 01:03:56.011 [SPEAKER_02]: Like when you show your fault, like the redine version of marriage is they're not going to go in for the kill there. 01:03:56.031 --> 01:03:58.612 [SPEAKER_02]: They're going to help protect you there and help fix you there. 01:03:58.632 --> 01:04:05.275 [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm just acknowledging that I think probably a lot of dads are like me and they're afraid to just crack the door and be like, 01:04:05.575 --> 01:04:20.722 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I see that I'm just, I'm going to season it being super frustrated with everybody and I'm taking it out on everybody because I'm afraid the response is going to be like, I, but I've been trying to see, yeah, and and this is what you always do instead of being like, 01:04:21.702 --> 01:04:37.472 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, thank you so much, like, you know, you can have time to work on that, but just thank you for your knowledge and we'll get immature, but just to say even to that point, the assumption that you're making in a good way, which is most of us have good will spouts. 01:04:37.532 --> 01:04:38.213 [SPEAKER_01]: It spouts it. 01:04:38.813 --> 01:04:40.334 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that is the general response. 01:04:41.175 --> 01:04:49.821 [SPEAKER_01]: But if you are here listening in your husband and your wife actually does, double down and go, yeah, you idiot, like that's exactly right. 01:04:50.561 --> 01:04:56.167 [SPEAKER_01]: that's a much deeper, harder situation that isn't just about you. 01:04:56.227 --> 01:05:00.751 [SPEAKER_01]: There is a deep disconnect in her soul and that's a situation where you husband and your soul. 01:05:01.392 --> 01:05:10.762 [SPEAKER_01]: And so when somebody kicks you while you're down and exposing vulnerability, it's a very hurt person who needs a lot of different types of help. 01:05:10.822 --> 01:05:12.844 [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's just to say that because I know 01:05:13.364 --> 01:05:15.646 [SPEAKER_00]: That is, that is a lot of people's dynamics. 01:05:15.666 --> 01:05:16.327 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm drinking. 01:05:16.387 --> 01:05:24.674 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, one of just me, like, there's no doubt, you know, with the reach of the podcast, like this can go in anyone's years and everyone's stories different. 01:05:25.195 --> 01:05:30.199 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm seeing it because we have a temptation when we hear something that's not our story to it immediately. 01:05:30.219 --> 01:05:31.140 [SPEAKER_01]: Just miss the whole idea. 01:05:31.720 --> 01:05:48.076 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm just saying don't dismiss this whole idea even if it doesn't look exactly like that because there's something with this as huge like when we believe the best and don't assume the worst of the other I mean this is a gift to you it's a gift to your marriage was a gift to you so remember that because it is a huge gift is ready to the last one 01:05:48.777 --> 01:05:55.302 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I was thinking this leads right to it because you get the tough situations like this and it's like, I think we need help. 01:05:55.622 --> 01:05:56.763 [SPEAKER_02]: There you go. 01:05:56.843 --> 01:05:58.384 [SPEAKER_02]: And five, do get help. 01:05:58.944 --> 01:06:01.806 [SPEAKER_02]: Don't isolate. 01:06:01.926 --> 01:06:10.872 [SPEAKER_01]: We don't just mean individually, let me just say, getting help could mean a myriad of things, but I think we should just give a little menu. 01:06:11.833 --> 01:06:18.897 [SPEAKER_01]: some of you need help of having better for the wife better female relationships and the husband better male relationships. 01:06:18.937 --> 01:06:19.658 [SPEAKER_01]: I can look like help. 01:06:20.158 --> 01:06:25.381 [SPEAKER_01]: It can look like help of you guys meeting with a friend or a pastor for some some guidance. 01:06:25.421 --> 01:06:27.602 [SPEAKER_01]: It can look like listening to a podcast together reading a book. 01:06:28.162 --> 01:06:29.583 [SPEAKER_01]: It can look like praying together right. 01:06:30.204 --> 01:06:32.945 [SPEAKER_01]: It also can very much look like and this is a little bit thought and I story. 01:06:32.965 --> 01:06:37.108 [SPEAKER_01]: It looked like marriage counseling ongoing for understanding how each other 01:06:41.570 --> 01:06:45.452 [SPEAKER_00]: And we should have done it years and years ago. 01:06:45.492 --> 01:06:47.493 [SPEAKER_00]: We talked about it for years. 01:06:47.553 --> 01:06:48.954 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we should find somebody. 01:06:49.034 --> 01:06:50.555 [SPEAKER_00]: We should find somebody and we really meant it. 01:06:52.176 --> 01:06:55.618 [SPEAKER_00]: And then, you know, things you finally get stuck enough and you find somebody. 01:06:55.738 --> 01:06:56.478 [SPEAKER_02]: When did you start? 01:06:56.498 --> 01:06:57.679 [SPEAKER_02]: How many years in a marriage? 01:06:58.019 --> 01:07:03.622 [SPEAKER_00]: No, I mean, like recently going weekly to a marriage counselor. 01:07:04.062 --> 01:07:08.786 [SPEAKER_00]: I would say we've, we've each done individual therapy for like the past 10 years. 01:07:09.346 --> 01:07:16.332 [SPEAKER_00]: And so lots of like we would meet with his, if we get real stuck, we would meet together with his therapist, which was incredibly helpful. 01:07:17.933 --> 01:07:26.720 [SPEAKER_01]: So lots of ongoing and then that and mentors and people that helped us along the way, so maybe it was not official in the sense of. 01:07:26.800 --> 01:07:41.803 [SPEAKER_01]: here's money will you help us it's it was more informal but so we've always had that always had help like help to work on things but there's a level where even good advice of like well just you know I'm more sex you'll be fine you're like 01:07:42.383 --> 01:07:43.944 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think that's the answer, you know. 01:07:44.385 --> 01:07:46.586 [SPEAKER_01]: And we got, you got him. 01:07:46.967 --> 01:07:47.787 [SPEAKER_01]: I was wishing. 01:07:47.827 --> 01:07:49.749 [SPEAKER_01]: I said that. 01:07:50.049 --> 01:07:51.170 [SPEAKER_01]: I would hope that's usually. 01:07:51.190 --> 01:07:54.953 [SPEAKER_01]: But you might have to go to Turkey first. 01:07:55.133 --> 01:07:57.494 [SPEAKER_00]: But I mean, in full transparency for us, it was like. 01:07:58.775 --> 01:08:05.922 [SPEAKER_00]: We reached a point where we're like, we know exactly what the cycle in the pattern is, we know exactly what the wound is underneath. 01:08:06.042 --> 01:08:07.803 [SPEAKER_00]: We know exactly what we need from each other. 01:08:08.344 --> 01:08:10.505 [SPEAKER_00]: We just can't seem to do it. 01:08:10.605 --> 01:08:12.287 [SPEAKER_00]: It seems to do it. 01:08:12.907 --> 01:08:14.589 [SPEAKER_01]: But not because we were ill-willed. 01:08:14.669 --> 01:08:17.511 [SPEAKER_00]: And we both were like, we're really tired of this. 01:08:17.571 --> 01:08:21.435 [SPEAKER_00]: We're tired of like, you say that thing and it sets that thing off in me. 01:08:22.055 --> 01:08:40.148 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we're like we're ready to be to be done with that, but we can't seem you can't white knuckle your way out of wounding or de-pert or ours is messy and combination with special needs parenting and chronic illness and it's not like marriage books are wonderful. 01:08:40.168 --> 01:08:47.634 [SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of wonderful marriage books for people with no trauma, no special needs, no like stuff. 01:08:48.934 --> 01:08:55.856 [SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes you need somebody really wise that therapist seeing his age, wrong believer, filled with the Holy Spirit. 01:08:57.556 --> 01:09:00.397 [SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes she's doing it first. 01:09:00.417 --> 01:09:01.277 [SPEAKER_00]: She's in her 60s. 01:09:02.157 --> 01:09:04.978 [SPEAKER_00]: And you know, first session, we're kind of laying it out for her. 01:09:05.138 --> 01:09:12.360 [SPEAKER_00]: She said, I'm just in awe that you guys are still married after all that you've had to face. 01:09:12.780 --> 01:09:14.180 [SPEAKER_00]: And then that she said, 01:09:18.342 --> 01:09:26.860 [SPEAKER_00]: And then at the end, she said this is going to be really hard work, and it's going to be uncomfortable, but I have so much hope you guys are going to do great. 01:09:27.780 --> 01:09:53.942 [SPEAKER_00]: And so sometimes you just need somebody to validate, yeah, like you, everything that's going on in the dynamics is as hard as it feels and like you're making a valiant effort to show up and to actually want it to be better and we we love the idea, especially in our culture right now of like follow these three steps do these three things and you'll have a better marriage by Monday, but the reality is like our formation to Jesus. 01:09:54.783 --> 01:09:58.827 [SPEAKER_00]: growth in any way does not work like that. 01:09:59.568 --> 01:10:05.453 [SPEAKER_00]: New muscles are made when they're literally torn down and have a chance to rebuild and get stronger. 01:10:06.254 --> 01:10:09.997 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think we also need to shed the expectation that you're going to 01:10:10.758 --> 01:10:20.724 [SPEAKER_00]: face all of your vices and your sins and conquer them tomorrow or God's going to heal them in an instant and God's going to fix your marriage in an instant because you tried these three things. 01:10:21.265 --> 01:10:35.094 [SPEAKER_00]: Now effort is absolutely part of it, but it's the slow work of the Holy Spirit, slowly chiseling away at those hard places in your heart, each of your hearts, which creates more compassion. 01:10:35.174 --> 01:10:36.515 [SPEAKER_00]: It creates more healing. 01:10:37.175 --> 01:10:39.317 [SPEAKER_00]: Which rewires your brains slowly. 01:10:39.437 --> 01:10:40.919 [SPEAKER_00]: It's just really slow work. 01:10:41.079 --> 01:10:43.020 [SPEAKER_00]: It is very, very worth it. 01:10:43.181 --> 01:10:44.081 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it is. 01:10:44.942 --> 01:10:48.625 [SPEAKER_01]: And to note about our therapist saying surprise, we're married. 01:10:48.946 --> 01:10:55.712 [SPEAKER_01]: It is because we've had so many outside factors that usually tank marriages pretty quick. 01:10:56.312 --> 01:11:01.577 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going chronic suffering two different details with things with our health, major health things with our kids. 01:11:03.038 --> 01:11:05.439 [SPEAKER_01]: it's like stacked thing upon thing upon thing upon things. 01:11:05.459 --> 01:11:12.941 [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, it was encouraging to hear or validating to go like, yeah, this has been really give you uniquely hard to hear. 01:11:12.981 --> 01:11:20.903 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and also to note like when we are, when she's relatively healthy, and we're away from our kids, although we love our kids. 01:11:20.943 --> 01:11:22.043 [SPEAKER_01]: And all stressors are everywhere. 01:11:22.083 --> 01:11:28.105 [SPEAKER_01]: When we have those things that have been the maybe, yeah, accelerators of the, that we realized, 01:11:29.392 --> 01:11:30.373 [SPEAKER_01]: We do great. 01:11:30.413 --> 01:11:31.414 [SPEAKER_01]: We love the show. 01:11:31.514 --> 01:11:47.986 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's never not been there, but what's happened is so many things have needed, and it's been necessity, needed our attention, our heart, our focus, and we're human just like anyone else, so it's easy to become undone in those seasons. 01:11:49.667 --> 01:12:09.284 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, that is been an encouragement, but do get help and don't isolate because isolating literally just seals the deal of death in your marriage and we just have to always be aware of it and so you can, you can really invite your spouse into this healing journey and both of you. 01:12:10.404 --> 01:12:11.285 [SPEAKER_01]: or you can push them away. 01:12:11.525 --> 01:12:18.207 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I do hope that these do's in don'ts as far as a general framework, use them. 01:12:18.547 --> 01:12:21.508 [SPEAKER_01]: They'll be in the show notes right and down, talk about them with your spouse. 01:12:21.568 --> 01:12:27.590 [SPEAKER_01]: If you listen to this and you're the wife, send it to your husband and vice versa, like, don't just let this sit here. 01:12:27.650 --> 01:12:30.571 [SPEAKER_01]: Like find your thing and then be a compassionate listener. 01:12:32.513 --> 01:12:34.154 [SPEAKER_01]: we just don't always know how to do life. 01:12:34.214 --> 01:12:39.059 [SPEAKER_01]: Life is really hard and I had a guy we were talking to at last night and his, uh... 01:12:40.687 --> 01:12:45.169 [SPEAKER_01]: his starting statement was like, well, my mom's a good Christian, but man, she is crazy. 01:12:45.329 --> 01:12:48.030 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, I was so funny, I always said it. 01:12:48.050 --> 01:12:57.834 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, and I just nicely reminded him, I was like, being a good Christian and being emotionally regulated and dealing with your life are not the same thing. 01:12:58.014 --> 01:13:08.999 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, and I have to be honest, that there's a whole world where people go, well, I'm a Christian therefore, I'm a great human and I would say, that's the hope, but that depends on where you're at, your process in your journey. 01:13:09.719 --> 01:13:32.587 [SPEAKER_01]: don't just assume because you know Jesus that you are at a spot where you're being a delightful human like that's the hope but we often have so many things we have to work through and go through in the process so funny you know a lot of people will say all you need is God the funny thing is God never said that he wasn't like all you need is me he's like yes you need me in the context not good family yeah family wife 01:13:33.127 --> 01:13:34.308 [SPEAKER_01]: Kids community. 01:13:34.868 --> 01:13:40.551 [SPEAKER_01]: I work in and through that and so being a good Christian man I do my things every that yes, God, it loves you. 01:13:40.571 --> 01:13:41.051 [SPEAKER_01]: He cares for you. 01:13:41.071 --> 01:13:49.416 [SPEAKER_01]: It's beautiful But he invites change through community and through deep relationships for your marriage through kids So wherever you're at you encourage you go on the journey 01:13:50.599 --> 01:13:51.560 [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for being on honey. 01:13:51.620 --> 01:13:52.681 [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for jumping on the show. 01:13:52.701 --> 01:13:53.582 [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for letting me. 01:13:53.602 --> 01:13:54.463 [SPEAKER_01]: The girls agree. 01:13:55.684 --> 01:13:57.647 [SPEAKER_02]: One of these days, we'll all forget in the same room. 01:13:57.667 --> 01:13:57.867 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 01:13:57.887 --> 01:13:58.868 [SPEAKER_02]: That would be great. 01:13:59.248 --> 01:14:02.512 [SPEAKER_02]: But no small task being asked, come on and help guys talk about their sense. 01:14:02.552 --> 01:14:05.115 [SPEAKER_02]: So thanks for being daring enough to do it. 01:14:05.175 --> 01:14:06.136 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know. 01:14:06.436 --> 01:14:07.017 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, honored.