WEBVTT 00:02.760 --> 00:11.461 [SPEAKER_00]: Just to spend, from common lives, and you're listening, listening, to listening, to the high-carum podcasts. 00:19.249 --> 00:22.870 [SPEAKER_03]: welcome everyone to another wonderful episode of the high carbon podcast. 00:23.411 --> 00:25.031 [SPEAKER_03]: We got Polly with me tonight. 00:25.391 --> 00:27.072 [SPEAKER_03]: Albert is a little bit busy. 00:27.652 --> 00:32.014 [SPEAKER_03]: He had some technical issues with his kill and he's getting ready for a class tomorrow. 00:32.114 --> 00:35.895 [SPEAKER_03]: So it'll be me and Polly and we have a guest to get to. 00:36.936 --> 00:39.937 [SPEAKER_03]: Polly, my week has been just like every other night, make his week. 00:40.257 --> 00:43.558 [SPEAKER_03]: I think everybody's getting ready for the night show too much stuff to do. 00:44.638 --> 00:46.179 [SPEAKER_03]: Same thing every week getting ready. 00:48.980 --> 00:49.861 [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, my table already. 00:50.441 --> 01:00.749 [SPEAKER_01]: Nothing exciting happened with wait but what you did that reveal last week about new material coming to your shop that you will be selling it. 01:00.829 --> 01:01.510 [SPEAKER_01]: Life's lost here. 01:02.110 --> 01:06.914 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I got a shipment of stabilized mammoth blocks, so there's small blocks. 01:07.935 --> 01:10.919 [SPEAKER_03]: 20 millimeters thick and four centimeter squared. 01:11.560 --> 01:13.843 [SPEAKER_03]: So these are more for like kitchen knife spaces. 01:14.183 --> 01:19.369 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if somebody really wanted to with a folder then it could probably split it and use it as a bolster or something like that. 01:20.615 --> 01:22.335 [SPEAKER_03]: I thought it would be interesting, something different to bring. 01:22.355 --> 01:33.737 [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, one of the things I showed the real lot of people asked me where I got them because they couldn't find them in that size before, but they are rough year and rough year does all kinds of different sizes because it's not a natural product. 01:33.797 --> 01:40.458 [SPEAKER_03]: You can always contact them and they always have some kind of crazy sizes and in stock if not they will cut them for you. 01:40.658 --> 01:42.059 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, you could buy blocks and cut them. 01:42.119 --> 01:46.259 [SPEAKER_03]: It's a lot of work with the diamond, wet saws and all that stuff to get a nice 01:50.163 --> 01:51.305 [SPEAKER_03]: We have something new in Austria. 01:52.547 --> 01:54.770 [SPEAKER_03]: We have a stupid tax that just came up today. 01:54.891 --> 02:02.022 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if I guess saw this, but every single Austrian package that's going on is getting taxed to $2.02 or $0.50. 02:05.327 --> 02:07.569 [SPEAKER_03]: But if you read the laws, there's like a subtle catch in it. 02:08.130 --> 02:10.472 [SPEAKER_03]: So per order, not per package. 02:10.512 --> 02:13.315 [SPEAKER_03]: If you order one package at a time, you pay next to two bucks. 02:13.355 --> 02:17.419 [SPEAKER_03]: If you ordered 100 packages, you just pay for that one order a two-year-old. 02:18.059 --> 02:20.902 [SPEAKER_03]: So for me, this is like Amazon. 02:21.162 --> 02:21.983 [SPEAKER_03]: Just do your timing. 02:22.043 --> 02:25.706 [SPEAKER_03]: Amazon doesn't order for like 200 packages or more at a time. 02:26.327 --> 02:29.993 [SPEAKER_03]: And they charge each customer two euros a piece and they only pay two euros. 02:30.033 --> 02:37.284 [SPEAKER_03]: So they make like an extra 400 euros fight by doing this stupid lot of axing that's going on now to screw in the little guy again. 02:37.304 --> 02:39.167 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know what's going on. 02:39.548 --> 02:40.950 [SPEAKER_01]: I hope they figure this crap out soon. 02:41.751 --> 02:42.872 [SPEAKER_01]: I guess it really depends. 02:43.192 --> 02:48.274 [SPEAKER_01]: If you think about an order, it's both basically was probably coming in one box. 02:48.914 --> 02:56.937 [SPEAKER_01]: And if you are boxing your boxes and additional boxes, then you are at the risk with the what it's called. 02:57.397 --> 02:58.257 [SPEAKER_01]: P.P.W.R. 02:58.738 --> 02:58.978 [SPEAKER_01]: Right? 02:59.938 --> 03:00.818 [SPEAKER_01]: You're overdoing? 03:01.399 --> 03:04.420 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they are trying to fuck you from all the sides, you know? 03:04.680 --> 03:05.460 [SPEAKER_03]: It is crazy. 03:05.840 --> 03:07.181 [SPEAKER_03]: So, I don't know. 03:07.261 --> 03:08.481 [SPEAKER_03]: They said in October that we're gonna 03:10.582 --> 03:15.091 [SPEAKER_03]: what happens, but that's Austria's new law for today that just jumped up out of nowhere. 03:15.392 --> 03:21.704 [SPEAKER_03]: I started getting emails from like GLS and Amazon sent me one in the Austrian post. 03:23.988 --> 03:29.954 [SPEAKER_03]: crazyness, craziness, but probably if nothing exciting happened to you, let's get to I guess I think we a lot to talk about with him. 03:30.274 --> 03:31.635 [SPEAKER_03]: Anything going on with Pauli. 03:32.756 --> 03:33.097 [SPEAKER_01]: A lot. 03:33.457 --> 03:34.077 [SPEAKER_01]: That's always. 03:34.418 --> 03:35.519 [SPEAKER_01]: But we can go to the guest. 03:35.679 --> 03:36.640 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not in my mind. 03:36.820 --> 03:37.401 [SPEAKER_01]: Nobody cares. 03:37.821 --> 03:38.381 [SPEAKER_01]: Nobody cares. 03:38.782 --> 03:39.643 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's get to our guest. 03:40.083 --> 03:40.984 [SPEAKER_01]: It's way more interesting. 03:41.344 --> 04:06.795 [SPEAKER_03]: All right, so tonight's guest we have one of the knife makers from the edge of hope project that's going on this year co-founder of the gold vein project co-develop of apex Ultra and he just released something that I think is going to be unfortunately to be as I think it's going to be copied by lots of other knife makers because this is one of those things once you see it just seems so obvious that it should have been done before 04:07.755 --> 04:12.737 [SPEAKER_03]: And we're talking about the modular takedown system to be as welcome to the podcast. 04:13.278 --> 04:14.638 [SPEAKER_03]: Hey guys, good to be here. 04:16.059 --> 04:16.559 [SPEAKER_02]: Good to be here. 04:16.599 --> 04:22.882 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, now that it's ready, I think it looks very, very natural, very, as you say. 04:23.482 --> 04:23.703 [SPEAKER_02]: Why? 04:23.843 --> 04:25.463 [SPEAKER_02]: Why has nobody done it before? 04:25.723 --> 04:29.785 [SPEAKER_02]: We've actually gone through a lot of detours before we got to this solution. 04:29.845 --> 04:33.047 [SPEAKER_02]: So I've tried many different approaches and screwed up 04:33.681 --> 04:39.985 [SPEAKER_02]: a couple of things, you know, ran into segways or like dead ends on some of the approaches. 04:40.005 --> 04:41.767 [SPEAKER_02]: And now, not that it's ready. 04:41.787 --> 04:43.768 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, yeah, obviously that's how you do it. 04:46.130 --> 04:50.292 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think I don't know when the first time I came via shop was maybe five, six years ago. 04:50.312 --> 04:53.174 [SPEAKER_03]: I think you like already had this in the works, maybe. 04:53.595 --> 04:56.877 [SPEAKER_03]: Now that it's all came together, and I've seen you like trying to figure out, 04:57.417 --> 05:07.264 [SPEAKER_03]: how to make these repeatable handles you worked on doing some machine work with handles and sizes, so I think you might have already had that in the back of your mind when I saw these projects going, so sounds like it's been something you've been working on. 05:08.244 --> 05:13.588 [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely, so I think that the base idea is probably five, six years old easily. 05:14.248 --> 05:15.549 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't, I don't even remember. 05:15.769 --> 05:22.954 [SPEAKER_02]: It was more like a vague vague idea that I wanted to have these individual elements and they all come together. 05:25.464 --> 05:41.744 [SPEAKER_02]: piece after piece and the vision got clearer so yeah like I wanted to have repeatable handle shapes I realized that even after grinding 200 handles they're they're never the same the way that I did it with these low angle facets and you know very 3D sculptory 05:43.245 --> 05:48.468 [SPEAKER_02]: And you need one deep, 60 grit scratch that you don't take out at a certain stage. 05:48.988 --> 05:52.590 [SPEAKER_02]: And then all of a sudden you make everything symmetrical, you need to sand everything out. 05:52.690 --> 05:59.494 [SPEAKER_02]: And the handle is 0.6 mm thinner on the one side and 0.6 mm thinner on the other side. 05:59.934 --> 06:01.395 [SPEAKER_02]: And it feels completely different. 06:02.075 --> 06:03.555 [SPEAKER_02]: It feels different. 06:03.595 --> 06:05.796 [SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't really look different, but it feels different. 06:05.816 --> 06:11.937 [SPEAKER_02]: So like 1.2 millimeters thickness of the handle is very, very sensitive. 06:11.977 --> 06:23.119 [SPEAKER_02]: So that was one of the first things that I realized is like, I can't do this in a economic fashion that I can, you know, always produce the same handle volume that I'm always equally happy with. 06:23.939 --> 06:29.140 [SPEAKER_02]: And so that was one of the things that I want to get more systematic. 06:31.172 --> 06:39.116 [SPEAKER_02]: you know, nailed the shape one time and then replicated and not trying to get the same exact shape each and every time on a grinder. 06:39.216 --> 06:47.499 [SPEAKER_02]: So we worked on a CNC solution so we can work with these high end materials basically that you can only get in small blocks. 06:47.679 --> 06:56.624 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's easy to do CNC stuff with enough easy easier if you have big sheets of material that you can index that you can hold 06:58.324 --> 07:10.990 [SPEAKER_02]: But we wanted to have a solution that basically you can, you know, put on the wonky piece of I don't know of some branch of major burl and then you, you know, you take off as little as possible. 07:11.130 --> 07:14.511 [SPEAKER_02]: You don't need anything like many, many surfaces to hold. 07:15.271 --> 07:20.433 [SPEAKER_02]: So we ended up at a four axis CNC set up with some, yeah. 07:22.779 --> 07:36.368 [SPEAKER_02]: tool holding things that help us to get that, you know, to have a minimal, minimal size of the raw material that's slightly oversized to the handle and then everything gets milled around the tank slot basically. 07:37.148 --> 07:40.951 [SPEAKER_02]: So that's our center center for for this operation. 07:42.972 --> 07:48.416 [SPEAKER_01]: So you get the slot for the tank first right and it's for the index so 07:48.895 --> 07:49.115 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. 07:49.656 --> 07:49.896 [SPEAKER_01]: Is it? 07:50.656 --> 07:56.960 [SPEAKER_01]: But if the material is not machined, so you have like, fuzzy edges, let's say, no, it's raw material. 07:57.400 --> 08:03.644 [SPEAKER_01]: How do you index then this vertically so you can maybe see in C-mail the slot or is it done by hand? 08:07.555 --> 08:20.685 [SPEAKER_02]: We've had both options actually, I build a jig only for making the slots that are repeatable enough so we can index onto the tank slots because that's basically how we hold it by the tank slot. 08:20.926 --> 08:22.407 [SPEAKER_02]: So that was my first step. 08:22.587 --> 08:25.829 [SPEAKER_02]: Now we also see and see the tank slots 08:29.472 --> 08:32.253 [SPEAKER_02]: efficiency and repeatability and the shape of the whole. 08:32.313 --> 08:38.916 [SPEAKER_02]: We can control that a little bit better if we do it by CNC Whereas on the fixture it was great for one-offs. 08:39.336 --> 08:41.797 [SPEAKER_02]: So we're still using that for example at the classes. 08:42.657 --> 08:43.938 [SPEAKER_02]: We've so we 08:45.099 --> 08:57.074 [SPEAKER_02]: Basically, in our classes, the students can come into the door if they point at a shape that they want and at a wood that they want and then during the forging, we will mill out the handle during the forging. 08:57.754 --> 09:02.000 [SPEAKER_02]: So while we're forging, the handle should preshape gets get milled out. 09:04.861 --> 09:10.942 [SPEAKER_02]: And that means we need a process where we're not binding the CNC to two different operations with two different tools. 09:11.422 --> 09:18.784 [SPEAKER_02]: But we wanted to have a setup for making the tank slots and then the setup for milling the handles themselves. 09:19.005 --> 09:27.967 [SPEAKER_02]: So one way would be to have another CNC that's just doing the tank slots or to have a tool changer, but both of the art options were well. 09:29.659 --> 09:39.385 [SPEAKER_02]: five digit options, so if you if you can make do with a smaller, you know, thing that's built for, it's basically a one trick pony. 09:39.465 --> 09:40.646 [SPEAKER_02]: You can only make tax lots. 09:42.167 --> 09:42.707 [SPEAKER_02]: It's you. 09:43.263 --> 09:46.125 [SPEAKER_01]: You might, okay, you have all of my attention right now. 09:46.846 --> 09:47.726 [SPEAKER_01]: There we go. 09:48.367 --> 09:52.349 [SPEAKER_01]: If you want, we can build down into the CNC stuff, because I'm super interested. 09:52.409 --> 09:53.430 [SPEAKER_01]: So you are first of all. 09:53.830 --> 09:56.632 [SPEAKER_01]: You are doing it all in-house. 09:56.652 --> 09:56.872 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. 09:57.913 --> 09:59.574 [SPEAKER_01]: What sort of machines are you rocking? 10:02.236 --> 10:07.697 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I, on the CNC side, I have a, I think it's called ball. 10:07.917 --> 10:10.018 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like a wood router, basically. 10:10.638 --> 10:14.959 [SPEAKER_02]: So, we have a wood router, a three axis portal, wood router. 10:16.519 --> 10:18.540 [SPEAKER_02]: These are the 1690 model, I think. 10:20.420 --> 10:22.901 [SPEAKER_02]: Obviously, all of the cheaper options come from China. 10:23.641 --> 10:29.422 [SPEAKER_02]: So, I think this machine costs us like 10 grand until it was here the door after all the duties paid and stuff like that. 10:31.604 --> 10:42.652 [SPEAKER_02]: So, it is a lot of money to make wooden handles, but on the other side, yeah, if you want that repeatable shape, it really helps us a lot in the process. 10:42.692 --> 10:47.476 [SPEAKER_02]: So, I think by now it has done a couple hundred of handles, rough shapes. 10:52.581 --> 11:05.112 [SPEAKER_02]: That was one of the limitations that I decided to go for because but easily the moment you go for a tool change you can almost buy two of these instead cost-wise. 11:05.652 --> 11:17.723 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if it has changed since I bought it but yeah it was just one of the things where I was like I like 99% of what I want to do is a one-end mail job 11:18.554 --> 11:33.220 [SPEAKER_02]: Um, so I got the cheaper version because it has a lot of runtime and I think I'd rather have two two cnc's And each one doing exactly what it's set up for as long as you have the table space because what I'm aiming for 11:34.520 --> 11:56.027 [SPEAKER_02]: Is a little bit of a scale operation where we can be efficiently in our in our process and you know delivered a very good price or like the performance that you get for the price that you pay should be in a good equilibrium and I think we can only achieve that if we have certain 11:57.278 --> 11:59.100 [SPEAKER_02]: productivity, you know, standards. 11:59.280 --> 12:03.786 [SPEAKER_02]: So, every time you do, you know, you change a set up and so on, you lose time. 12:04.246 --> 12:13.598 [SPEAKER_02]: And since the beginning of life making where I made, you know, we had four squamies, there's, and I was just basically reconstructing my own workspace all the time. 12:13.978 --> 12:15.921 [SPEAKER_02]: I felt like that's the biggest waste in time. 12:16.501 --> 12:17.042 [SPEAKER_02]: that you can have. 12:17.062 --> 12:25.070 [SPEAKER_02]: So if every station is always set up to the one job that it does, but it does that job well, then I think you have a good setup. 12:26.131 --> 12:26.872 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's very well. 12:27.533 --> 12:30.015 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's a really smart decision especially, 12:32.017 --> 12:47.723 [SPEAKER_01]: If you know what the machine will do, so you are choosing the specs to that, I think many people who are buying their first or second sense, see they want the machine to do all of the stuff, all of the things, so they need everything, but in the end, as you said, if you need, if you 12:48.463 --> 12:56.049 [SPEAKER_01]: want to have efficiency, the first thing that you need to do is the setup time, and especially on the CNC, sometimes it can take quite a lot of time. 12:56.589 --> 13:14.143 [SPEAKER_01]: Unless you have a zero point system, but as you said in your case, you need to have a fourth axis, which kind of does not allow this to know to have, because maybe you are setting up on your table, then maybe the zero point 13:16.905 --> 13:18.826 [SPEAKER_01]: and you have also two processes on one table. 13:19.586 --> 13:20.406 [SPEAKER_01]: So that makes sense. 13:20.486 --> 13:25.288 [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, tool changers are incredibly expensive. 13:25.408 --> 13:30.430 [SPEAKER_01]: Even the spindles themselves are very expensive to have the ability to tool change. 13:30.510 --> 13:39.213 [SPEAKER_01]: And then, of course, all of the auxiliary stuff that you need to have, like, the air compressor and the air driers to work the pneumatics, 13:39.833 --> 13:54.360 [SPEAKER_02]: And everything that comes together with that and it ended it it increases and what you need to keep in mind is At the end of the day the the product is not finished faster usually so like milling one handle still takes the same 50 minutes 13:55.825 --> 14:00.446 [SPEAKER_02]: but if your machine is twice the cost, you have twice the cost on the handle as well in that stage. 14:00.827 --> 14:10.729 [SPEAKER_02]: So you're not at the one side you're buying freedom to make whatever you want with, you know, having the tool changer and this feature and that feature and the biggest space and so on. 14:11.169 --> 14:16.231 [SPEAKER_02]: But you're still rotating it, hanging one spindle at one, two at one workpiece, right? 14:16.751 --> 14:22.096 [SPEAKER_02]: So, you're also buying that, not just with your money, but also with the costs that you attach to your blade. 14:22.116 --> 14:28.040 [SPEAKER_02]: So, I think, as you say, the closer you can narrow it down to what the machine needs to be able to do. 14:29.782 --> 14:35.927 [SPEAKER_02]: The better you can buy the machine for it, and then it can do what it needs to do, and that more. 14:36.818 --> 14:48.868 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, most of them two slower spindles will be way faster at production than one extremely fast, and it's so great to have multiple spindles because if one is working full-time, then you have another if you want to do some prototyping. 14:49.288 --> 14:57.936 [SPEAKER_01]: So you have at least that backup, but if you have one really expensive one that is loaded with work, you have no time to do prototyping, no time to do R&D. 14:59.096 --> 15:00.597 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just bad time, just bad time. 15:00.857 --> 15:09.160 [SPEAKER_01]: But now going back a little bit to your fixturing I'm sorry for my listeners, but look he a he said the magic arts CNC. 15:09.340 --> 15:12.521 [SPEAKER_01]: So you know I think it's coming more and more. 15:12.741 --> 15:13.822 [SPEAKER_02]: I know a lot of people are still 15:15.103 --> 15:24.289 [SPEAKER_02]: kind of shying away from it, but I think your audience, our audience here, is probably in the younger side and yeah, it's adapting, right? 15:25.049 --> 15:34.535 [SPEAKER_02]: I always, you know, there's a certain line that I personally feel like for myself, it's always what do I want to do in my job and I don't want to get rid of forging. 15:34.695 --> 15:36.817 [SPEAKER_02]: That's for me, like that's the core. 15:37.377 --> 15:41.220 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to get rid of my core thing that's why I want to do it. 15:41.260 --> 15:46.423 [SPEAKER_02]: I want to forge the blades and I feel like I'm adding value to it by doing that. 15:46.883 --> 15:49.945 [SPEAKER_02]: But if there's things that the machine can do better, faster, cheaper, 15:51.769 --> 16:00.477 [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm not really a big fan of doing it, and it ruins my health with all of the grinding dust. 16:00.998 --> 16:04.261 [SPEAKER_02]: Then what is the reason that I'm doing it by hand? 16:04.301 --> 16:05.782 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not making it better by hand. 16:05.822 --> 16:08.425 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm making it worse by hand in that scenario. 16:08.985 --> 16:31.346 [SPEAKER_02]: Unless I'm doing, you know, changing the design all of the time that's the whole different story then it makes sense to do one by one But if I want to get to one design and I want to stick to it if that's part of my concept It's hard to beat a CNC Yeah, and oh man, you touched on so many points that that they really really really like But especially talking about sensies is that 16:33.147 --> 16:49.050 [SPEAKER_01]: When you have everything modeled in, you have kind of a benchmark, which upon which you can improve further and thirder and you have this continuous process of improvement rather than doing one of us and making solving similar 16:57.292 --> 17:19.025 [SPEAKER_01]: It's great up to my standard, but then in the future you can just think of it with it and just adjust it by tiny bit, maybe some factors on the handle, maybe the finishing technique, and especially what you said about a machine doing something better, but it's like, since he is giving you consistency and it's also doing the work. 17:20.545 --> 17:25.807 [SPEAKER_01]: that is sometimes not the actual value at for you as a person to work with, right? 17:26.307 --> 17:33.789 [SPEAKER_01]: It can create a very consistent shape, but the actual value at that you add as a person as maybe the surface finish of it. 17:34.129 --> 17:40.731 [SPEAKER_01]: Because nobody cares that you ground the handle with like 60 grit or 120 grit and then you've finished it to 1,200 grit. 17:40.951 --> 17:41.432 [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly. 17:42.132 --> 17:43.512 [SPEAKER_01]: Nobody cares about the lower grids. 17:44.132 --> 17:45.713 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just a way to get there. 17:50.124 --> 17:50.584 [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely. 17:51.205 --> 18:12.019 [SPEAKER_02]: For me, it makes sense on all levels, like even down to, like, money-wise, health-wise, it makes sense for the environment, because of now I'm using one end-mail to make like 80 handles instead of two belts per handle or two and a half belts used to be my average before that, if I did full tanks. 18:12.139 --> 18:12.299 [SPEAKER_02]: So 18:13.840 --> 18:24.966 [SPEAKER_02]: just throwing tons of belts into the waste bin also doesn't feel great on the environment side or just being efficient and effective. 18:25.826 --> 18:37.372 [SPEAKER_02]: So for me it makes a lot of sense but it's always different if you if you more offer an artistic person and you need that process to further develop your work and you want to be doing one of us. 18:38.241 --> 18:38.942 [SPEAKER_02]: perfectly fine. 18:39.162 --> 18:40.803 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, it's a different game. 18:40.863 --> 18:48.688 [SPEAKER_02]: At that point, you're, you know, you're holding your skill, you're working with the material, you're seeing how it reacts and then you react to it again. 18:49.669 --> 19:00.917 [SPEAKER_02]: So I think, you know, there's this pros and cons to both of it, but if you're thinking about the business side and scaling and keeping everything resistant, then that's a great way. 19:01.538 --> 19:01.878 [SPEAKER_02]: For me, 19:02.859 --> 19:08.664 [SPEAKER_02]: I think, for my production, the blades are the star, they are... 19:09.740 --> 19:15.682 [SPEAKER_02]: what's unique, that they are, what's hand forged, they are, you know, the tapered, one-of-a-kind product. 19:15.962 --> 19:27.506 [SPEAKER_02]: And as you say, nobody, nobody cares how I get to the pre-shape of my handles that I then hand-send to 240 and 600 and 1,500 in Polish up. 19:27.946 --> 19:35.709 [SPEAKER_02]: As long as they look good at the end, and as long as you know everything comes together at a good picture and as long as you're transparent about it, 19:38.510 --> 19:45.015 [SPEAKER_02]: I think most people will not care and those who care that it's all handmade will go to somebody else and that's completely fine. 19:45.255 --> 19:52.980 [SPEAKER_02]: We have plenty of knife makers doing all kinds of different techniques and following different philosophies most of all. 19:53.100 --> 19:57.663 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's a big part of knife making and a big part of developing you all. 19:58.924 --> 20:19.738 [SPEAKER_02]: career finding your position in life, in life making, in the business is what's your philosophy, what are the trade of study or willing to take, that you are not willing to take, what are the, you know, what are your core values, how do you think the knife should be made, how. 20:20.433 --> 20:25.899 [SPEAKER_02]: What do you think should be part of the thing that you're doing, right? 20:27.060 --> 20:28.221 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly. 20:29.142 --> 20:32.025 [SPEAKER_01]: You need to be willing to say no to customers. 20:33.266 --> 20:35.068 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's just not for you. 20:35.128 --> 20:35.769 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just not for you. 20:35.789 --> 20:38.031 [SPEAKER_01]: You're looking for a different kind of thing. 20:38.732 --> 20:47.678 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think I have kind of a hot take this early in the show, but I think CNC is not the end of artistry. 20:48.258 --> 20:52.621 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's just a tool like a brush for an artist, you know. 20:53.381 --> 21:00.846 [SPEAKER_01]: And I follow quite a few makers who are using CNC's and they have like just one machine and they are doing one of kind of work. 21:01.166 --> 21:04.949 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's just a tool that you have to learn and if you want to do some crazy stuff like 21:05.489 --> 21:13.175 [SPEAKER_01]: interesting milling, some lighting pockets, maybe some interesting engraving, but you are not choosing it to learn it, to do it by hand. 21:13.736 --> 21:15.917 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's just kind of doesn't matter. 21:15.977 --> 21:20.541 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just how you express yourself with the tools that you are, you know, efficient with. 21:21.161 --> 21:21.402 [SPEAKER_01]: So, 21:23.043 --> 21:32.208 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I don't kind of get it when people like the customers that you talked about who think that everything needs to be handmade, I don't see the intrinsic value. 21:32.608 --> 21:40.813 [SPEAKER_01]: If somebody is doing floating on the handle, by hand, or somebody else is doing it with sensei, and the end result is the same. 21:41.753 --> 21:43.235 [SPEAKER_01]: I think I don't I kind of don't care. 21:43.255 --> 21:45.438 [SPEAKER_01]: I I wouldn't care. 21:45.458 --> 21:47.321 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't I don't care. 21:47.341 --> 21:49.624 [SPEAKER_03]: Probeuses loot is losing any customers with this. 21:49.644 --> 21:51.026 [SPEAKER_03]: These these handle designs that you make. 21:51.046 --> 21:52.668 [SPEAKER_03]: I think you have five or six different choices. 21:53.049 --> 21:58.356 [SPEAKER_03]: They're handle like styles that you've always made for for as long as I can remember that you made. 21:58.396 --> 21:58.757 [SPEAKER_03]: Exactly. 21:59.097 --> 22:04.918 [SPEAKER_03]: So now you actually give your customer even more of a choice if there's a blade that you made that they enjoy. 22:04.938 --> 22:07.699 [SPEAKER_03]: It might have before had a different style handle on it. 22:07.759 --> 22:11.680 [SPEAKER_03]: Now they have the choice to put the handle that they want to learn to the blade that they like. 22:12.920 --> 22:16.321 [SPEAKER_02]: If they touched it before, they know which size and which shape they're going to like. 22:16.401 --> 22:22.482 [SPEAKER_02]: So that's like the whole thing, you know, I can put the knife into the hands or a handle into the hands. 22:22.542 --> 22:25.143 [SPEAKER_02]: And they can say yes and that one did out of that. 22:25.935 --> 22:28.279 [SPEAKER_02]: memo task now that Keith just sent me. 22:29.921 --> 22:31.203 [SPEAKER_02]: Or whatever else, you know? 22:31.964 --> 22:36.070 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, mammoth is going to be a tricky one to mail that probably also doable. 22:37.712 --> 22:39.695 [SPEAKER_02]: That's I think that's the cool thing that you can. 22:41.157 --> 22:44.841 [SPEAKER_02]: Give the customer the choice very much. 22:45.541 --> 23:01.035 [SPEAKER_02]: Obviously not everybody's going to have the chance to touch it before they order a knife, but yeah, still it's You can see it at least pretty pretty closely in the pictures before you buy the knife. 23:02.340 --> 23:05.423 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm more question about, about the sorry for the integral handle. 23:05.463 --> 23:15.433 [SPEAKER_01]: One question about the handles, if I am buying a knife and I buy the one of the handles like, that's the size that I like, can they order more handles and they will fit the knife or they won't? 23:16.042 --> 23:44.578 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, maybe it is a good point to like touch on the whole concept and talk about it as a like now we've been just all over the place touching on little points I think it's good to think like if I introduce the idea overall so yes that's part of the idea so I named it like it's a full modular take down concept and what I think of as modularity is that you can 23:45.979 --> 23:50.963 [SPEAKER_02]: You can have different handles that all fit onto the same blade and that's the tricky part. 23:51.123 --> 23:54.426 [SPEAKER_02]: Everything else is, you know, standard. 23:54.946 --> 23:59.330 [SPEAKER_02]: But I want to be able to send you a knife today with three different handles. 23:59.570 --> 24:03.974 [SPEAKER_02]: And in two years at Christmas, you, I want that titanium handle as well. 24:04.034 --> 24:05.776 [SPEAKER_02]: And I want that pink handle now. 24:06.476 --> 24:11.559 [SPEAKER_02]: And I make the handles and I send you the handles without ever seeing the blade again. 24:11.579 --> 24:17.321 [SPEAKER_02]: And they will go on and they will fit perfectly and you can screw it on and there's no gap. 24:17.521 --> 24:20.943 [SPEAKER_02]: It's watertight with a little bit of grease and that's it. 24:21.123 --> 24:23.004 [SPEAKER_02]: And that was actually the tricky part to achieve. 24:23.484 --> 24:29.567 [SPEAKER_02]: That we're watertight, we're fully modular so every handle fits every blade. 24:30.127 --> 24:35.230 [SPEAKER_02]: regardless of size, so you can order petty and you can put a large handle on it and still fit it. 24:35.690 --> 24:38.932 [SPEAKER_02]: So we have different lengths of handles between 120, 125 and 130 millimeters. 24:38.952 --> 24:40.612 [SPEAKER_02]: They have different thicknesses, they have different shapes. 24:40.632 --> 24:40.773 [SPEAKER_02]: And... 24:47.207 --> 24:47.808 [SPEAKER_02]: on top of that. 24:48.688 --> 24:51.470 [SPEAKER_02]: So we offer different shapes, different sizes of the handles. 24:52.091 --> 24:54.252 [SPEAKER_02]: They all fit on every blade within the system. 24:54.352 --> 25:00.237 [SPEAKER_02]: So any blade that's marked with Hungler module that takes them on thing will fit all of the handles. 25:01.137 --> 25:04.520 [SPEAKER_02]: And on top of that you can modify the balance point. 25:04.560 --> 25:04.700 [SPEAKER_02]: So 25:05.837 --> 25:17.521 [SPEAKER_02]: At a certain point, if I don't know which blade the handle is going to go to, it's hard to find the right material, find the right size to give the knife the right balance point. 25:18.054 --> 25:26.798 [SPEAKER_02]: So the way we found to go around that is that we give the customer at home the possibility to change the balance point and the weight of the blade. 25:27.419 --> 25:34.942 [SPEAKER_02]: So there is a balance pin pocket inside of the handle and now you can add as much as I think it's 37 grams. 25:36.203 --> 25:51.472 [SPEAKER_02]: So, with the differences of the locking nut, I think we're over 40 grams of different, and if you've ever put a hidden tang handle on the scales, you know that a typical handle will probably have between 30 and 40 grams. 25:51.592 --> 25:53.553 [SPEAKER_02]: If it's out, for example, that's a diamond wood. 25:54.053 --> 25:56.335 [SPEAKER_02]: It's maybe 45, 50 grams, not more. 25:56.795 --> 26:00.017 [SPEAKER_02]: So, basically, we're giving you the opportunity to double 26:06.150 --> 26:07.132 [SPEAKER_02]: that works best for you. 26:08.033 --> 26:18.106 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's kind of the beginning I thought it was kind of like gimmicky, but it's really not, I have had customers in the past that chipped their knife. 26:19.548 --> 26:20.029 [SPEAKER_02]: They broke the 26:23.413 --> 26:38.099 [SPEAKER_02]: and that they weren't happy about the knife after work because the balance point shifted and at some point you know it feels too back heavy and people were so upset about it that they wanted, you know, to regret the handle as well, to shift the balance when back forth. 26:38.499 --> 26:47.363 [SPEAKER_02]: So some people are very susceptible to that or very sensitive to changes and they have a very particular balance point that 26:49.403 --> 27:06.367 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think it's, now that we have it is really cool, like for sharpening I always use the largest weight because it gives the blade a little bit more stability and for everything else it depends on the blade and what I'm doing but it's kind of nice to have that opportunity and it's a very quick change. 27:06.527 --> 27:11.488 [SPEAKER_02]: So we've posted a couple of videos we can take down the blade in like 30 seconds. 27:12.049 --> 27:16.890 [SPEAKER_02]: If you put grease on it you change the weight maybe 90 seconds until you 27:20.011 --> 27:32.561 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so full modularity, any blade will fit any handle, you can change the balance point, you can change the shape as you want, so in the purchasing decision you can choose the handle style that you like. 27:34.022 --> 27:59.406 [SPEAKER_02]: As I said, the blades are our core products, they are our stars, they are the one-off hand-forged product and then you just pick the handle that you like and that way we give you or the customer the opportunity to modify customized and get their style on it as they want it. 28:00.634 --> 28:06.177 [SPEAKER_01]: So with every handle they are getting these three pens for balancing, right? 28:07.377 --> 28:24.305 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, basically for the smallest size we cannot fit the largest weights inside or it doesn't, you know, work geometrically because either we use the full potential of the balancing pocket, but obviously the smaller handles are one centimeter shorter than the larger handles, so 28:25.865 --> 28:32.291 [SPEAKER_02]: There will be a note, please don't put the largest weight into the smallest handle, you will not be able to close it anymore. 28:32.972 --> 28:43.261 [SPEAKER_02]: But basically, yes, every night, basically comes with a, or you choose to set and the three basic components are played handle and the locking nut. 28:44.145 --> 28:59.540 [SPEAKER_02]: the locking nut is a very functional part because it threads on to the tang and hold everything together and but it's also aware the balancing pins sit and they are placed and it's also visible so it's one of the 29:00.905 --> 29:17.991 [SPEAKER_02]: core products that defined the the yeah the look of the knife I would say so we put a lot of details into that and we made anodized titanium versions and bronze and brass and stainless steel so you can also basically pick and choose what you like on that side. 29:19.052 --> 29:30.922 [SPEAKER_02]: And now we've launched, I wouldn't say, the minimal viable concept, but we've launched it and it's, like, this is our starting point, we are definitely planning on going further. 29:31.663 --> 29:34.806 [SPEAKER_02]: We've also launched two passwords in different forums. 29:35.807 --> 29:43.073 [SPEAKER_02]: And they can see some of our titanium and aluminum handles, which are basically hollow shapes. 29:44.875 --> 29:51.142 [SPEAKER_02]: They're very lightweight as well, very good in the hands, and you can analyze them and you can do lots of crazy shit with it. 29:51.722 --> 29:53.524 [SPEAKER_02]: It's really cool, but we are not. 29:54.085 --> 29:57.989 [SPEAKER_02]: We weren't fully happy with the process yet. 29:58.870 --> 30:03.255 [SPEAKER_02]: So the first batch that we did, we did a lot of hand-filing of the... 30:04.731 --> 30:13.278 [SPEAKER_02]: The contact surfaces to each other because they need to feel nice, they need to be, you know, rigid, but nothing, you know, all tolerances need to fit one each other. 30:14.118 --> 30:28.190 [SPEAKER_02]: And so we weren't ready for production yet, so we launched it with a limited set of woods and shapes for now, and then we're going to expand later with. 30:28.878 --> 30:32.221 [SPEAKER_02]: more shapes to come, more materials to come, more finishes to come. 30:33.061 --> 30:36.784 [SPEAKER_02]: And then I hope there's no no no wishes left. 30:36.824 --> 30:40.827 [SPEAKER_02]: I think we're already confusing the customers too much, but that's okay. 30:41.948 --> 30:44.850 [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes too much rice is also a bad choice. 30:46.271 --> 30:46.971 [SPEAKER_01]: Guess how I know. 30:47.372 --> 30:49.033 [SPEAKER_01]: But talking about depends, 30:49.693 --> 30:51.514 [SPEAKER_01]: Just going back a little bit back to the pins. 30:51.594 --> 31:17.422 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's a brilliant idea sending like You know quite a few pins to the customer because it's so subjective I get it really depends on the how they are holding the knife in their hand and where is the actual pivot point in their hand and how they will feel the balance Because if you are really choking up on the blade right the pivot point area in your hand is in a way further a front So you will feel more weight in the handle if you put in 31:18.022 --> 31:21.144 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, the balancing pin, like the middle one. 31:21.484 --> 31:25.767 [SPEAKER_01]: And if you are doing the full hammer grip, you will feel the effect of them way less. 31:27.408 --> 31:31.110 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it feels completely different depending on where you were gripping. 31:31.711 --> 31:36.033 [SPEAKER_02]: So people pinch, like, with almost two fingers completely on the blade. 31:36.293 --> 31:38.655 [SPEAKER_02]: They're holding it like four centimeters into the blade. 31:39.055 --> 31:43.378 [SPEAKER_02]: And other people are like two centimeters behind the neck of the knife. 31:47.491 --> 31:49.373 [SPEAKER_02]: some of those handles, I don't get how you hold them. 31:49.513 --> 31:51.515 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like what do I do with this? 31:53.517 --> 32:01.304 [SPEAKER_02]: 15 centimeters of handle block and for me the most disturbing thing is always the sharp corner is at the front of the handle. 32:01.324 --> 32:03.326 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like why don't you chamfer that? 32:03.366 --> 32:03.686 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know. 32:04.047 --> 32:08.631 [SPEAKER_02]: If somebody wants to pinch him so it doesn't like completely feel off in your hand. 32:10.733 --> 32:12.134 [SPEAKER_02]: Different style of holding apparently. 32:13.355 --> 32:13.795 [SPEAKER_02]: It's crazy. 32:13.875 --> 32:17.996 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, pinch grip is the way it's the way you have the most control, you know, it just feel it. 32:18.876 --> 32:25.918 [SPEAKER_01]: But you said that because every handle fits every knife that is by your modular system, right? 32:27.198 --> 32:33.280 [SPEAKER_01]: What is the system that you have in place to like achieving the tolerances of the on the tanks themselves? 32:33.620 --> 32:40.461 [SPEAKER_01]: Because I guess the front of the handle where the blade is needs to be shaped really, really accurately. 32:44.503 --> 33:06.393 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's just to be honest, everything else is common engineering, is probably nothing new to all of it, like everything put together is new and putting a concept on it, a lot of the other processes where basically finding the right tolerances, windows and processes to get it working. 33:07.084 --> 33:10.106 [SPEAKER_02]: And that particular step is something else. 33:11.287 --> 33:20.293 [SPEAKER_02]: And I cannot talk about it because we've made this happen again in a FFT. 33:22.395 --> 33:25.217 [SPEAKER_02]: Forschungsferderungsproject. 33:25.397 --> 33:30.720 [SPEAKER_02]: And basically they make you also enter concept of how you can protect your innovation. 33:35.080 --> 33:46.076 [SPEAKER_02]: research, man hours, studies, and stuff like that, and machines, and then you come up with a solution, and everybody comes around the corner's like, yep, doing that too now. 33:46.597 --> 33:46.938 [SPEAKER_02]: Awesome. 33:47.902 --> 34:03.648 [SPEAKER_02]: And I've literally spent hundreds of hours on this project, not just me, also my police, so there's a lot of money that we put into the development of this and yes, so that's the one thing that I can't really specify exactly. 34:05.349 --> 34:16.213 [SPEAKER_02]: I can't say it was trickier than I thought hand forged high hardness blades with zero referencing surfaces are not great to hold for any kind of machines. 34:17.515 --> 34:20.927 [SPEAKER_02]: is not easy to have something that has no radius. 34:21.974 --> 34:47.759 [SPEAKER_02]: whatsoever as a tool because any radius that you have is going to mess up the front fit of the bolster so I want to have like four sided shoulders that are completely flat and I did grease to the handle so we can use that as a seeding surface because otherwise I can't the chief full modularity whilst having the opportunity to make a petty with 3.5 mill spine thickness 34:48.499 --> 34:54.642 [SPEAKER_02]: or a Kyoto with 6.2mm spine thickness and they fit into the same handle. 34:55.943 --> 35:06.868 [SPEAKER_02]: So it was a part of my madness that kind of drove the feasibility and how you could make this into the nothingness and made it really really hard. 35:07.508 --> 35:13.051 [SPEAKER_02]: If I was doing CNC made blades, I think the root would be quite different. 35:13.071 --> 35:14.532 [SPEAKER_02]: I would just do like four. 35:15.348 --> 35:21.991 [SPEAKER_02]: foresighted, machining, you have defined radius on all sides, you can hold it properly, and there you go. 35:23.391 --> 35:24.412 [SPEAKER_02]: But it wasn't quite that. 35:25.672 --> 35:33.175 [SPEAKER_01]: I have one guess, but I will keep it after we are done recording so you can just, you know, you can say yes or no, if you think that's right. 35:33.195 --> 35:40.979 [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, that's interesting because, you know, when you were talking about the handle that everything fits every blade, that's how, how. 35:41.279 --> 35:41.639 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh. 35:41.699 --> 35:41.819 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh. 35:43.339 --> 35:47.321 [SPEAKER_02]: It's not easy, even with the thing that we're doing, it's not going to be easy. 35:48.201 --> 35:55.524 [SPEAKER_02]: Which probably going to have like one or two years max for other people find out other people do it. 35:56.305 --> 35:58.525 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm already seeing it coming, but that's okay. 35:58.886 --> 36:02.787 [SPEAKER_02]: Which is the little bit of advantage, a little bit, until we're out on the market and then. 36:07.929 --> 36:12.271 [SPEAKER_02]: it will become common knowledge in the next, in the next couple of summers. 36:13.071 --> 36:26.897 [SPEAKER_03]: This is a perfect timing, bringing it to like, knife show Austria, there'll be a lot of American knife makers there too, and also the class you're doing after a knife show Austria, where like, well, my seeing some of the other people from around the world will be there, everybody gets some eyes on this new project that you just finished. 36:26.917 --> 36:27.577 [SPEAKER_03]: It's great timing. 36:29.058 --> 36:29.618 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's true. 36:29.858 --> 36:31.319 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, Momma's is actually not coming. 36:31.399 --> 36:34.439 [SPEAKER_02]: He had to cancel the trip to Europe all together. 36:35.880 --> 36:38.340 [SPEAKER_02]: But we have a couple of other interesting faces. 36:38.500 --> 36:39.621 [SPEAKER_02]: What's that there's going to be there? 36:40.521 --> 36:42.081 [SPEAKER_02]: And lots of very good makers. 36:42.562 --> 36:48.023 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, what's that there's our last last minute edition, everything else was announced already before. 36:50.078 --> 36:56.923 [SPEAKER_03]: So you mentioned that like, and I also saw this in a video like putting grease on that front transition that you couldn't tell us how you made it. 36:57.063 --> 37:02.887 [SPEAKER_03]: That's more for for watertight fit to keep food and stuff out of it or okay. 37:02.907 --> 37:15.936 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we did some tests on it, you know, with different hydraulic pressures and basically you increase it by so much if you just have the tiniest film of grease 37:19.398 --> 37:39.771 [SPEAKER_02]: It does work on summer materials, which are a bit softer and they have a little bit of give to them, but as soon as you have hardened materials facing each other, very little gap is, you know, just the roughness of the material is almost enough to get some water inside even if it's just a few drops or just humidity. 37:40.031 --> 37:42.473 [SPEAKER_02]: And as soon as you put a tiny bit of grease on 37:47.867 --> 37:52.149 [SPEAKER_02]: half a meter of a water tank without problems and it's completely dry. 37:52.589 --> 37:55.631 [SPEAKER_02]: So I think it will be fine on this you put it in the dishwasher. 37:57.372 --> 38:00.654 [SPEAKER_01]: I just want a question about about the testing methodology. 38:01.974 --> 38:03.855 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like hydraulic pressure, right? 38:04.395 --> 38:07.117 [SPEAKER_01]: So all of the handle is submerged, right? 38:07.797 --> 38:07.977 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 38:08.397 --> 38:09.018 [SPEAKER_01]: So you 38:13.460 --> 38:38.583 [SPEAKER_01]: So the pressure is coming from the front and from the back, so basically it cannot escape the air cannot escape and maybe the water cannot get in, but if you are existing in not laboratory within real world, the pressure could come just from the front of the handle and from the back it could be, you know, no pressure, wouldn't that kind of allow the water to seep in? 38:39.303 --> 38:52.039 [SPEAKER_01]: If let's say you are washing it holding the life like this under a faucet and you know the water is just raining We did the faucet test as well just as a like reference 38:54.554 --> 38:55.094 [SPEAKER_02]: I know what you mean. 38:55.314 --> 39:01.058 [SPEAKER_02]: Basically, I mean the air inside is a compressible fluid as well. 39:01.258 --> 39:03.419 [SPEAKER_02]: So if you put pressure on the front and the back. 39:04.119 --> 39:10.303 [SPEAKER_02]: And if somebody, if something is moving, the air would be compressed from both sides and the pressure would be a love inside. 39:10.963 --> 39:14.365 [SPEAKER_02]: But you are already in a scenario that's a fail basically. 39:14.665 --> 39:16.526 [SPEAKER_02]: So as soon as something moved, 39:17.349 --> 39:17.790 [SPEAKER_02]: It's over. 39:18.731 --> 39:28.962 [SPEAKER_02]: So as soon as we have two drops of water inside, it's already a no-go, at least, you know, to what we wanted to have as the as the founder product. 39:28.982 --> 39:32.105 [SPEAKER_02]: So yes, but it doesn't really matter. 39:33.066 --> 39:40.071 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it makes sense, makes perfect sense, you know, just you thought about it way more than I either. 39:40.431 --> 39:40.791 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 39:40.991 --> 39:41.852 [SPEAKER_01]: Last 30 seconds. 39:41.912 --> 39:42.612 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm thinking about it. 39:42.952 --> 39:56.061 [SPEAKER_01]: This really works like this and I guess we did bad cap, but screw, you can also change the weight and the balance of the knife, yes, multiple materials. 39:57.326 --> 40:11.192 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, it's multiple materials, so the base product is the stainless steel screw, which is technically perfect, but you have a weight of about 11 grams at the very back end of the handle. 40:11.993 --> 40:24.058 [SPEAKER_02]: And so on smaller knives, if you want to achieve a more forward heavy balance, we'd recommend to use the titanium and caps instead, because they weigh only 6 grams, and they will not shift the balance as much. 40:25.530 --> 40:34.253 [SPEAKER_02]: So even just the end cap itself is, yeah, it's like a tiny balancing pain at the end of the handle. 40:34.433 --> 40:44.977 [SPEAKER_02]: Obviously part of it is counter-counterbed by the hollow of the handle because we drill out the handle for our larger parts than you would usually do. 40:45.517 --> 40:49.579 [SPEAKER_02]: So we remove some of the material of the handle, but we have a little bit more mass in the back. 40:50.219 --> 40:54.882 [SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah, it's a little bit of give a take, but that's a tiny make sense. 40:55.882 --> 40:56.822 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, just make sense. 40:57.303 --> 41:04.046 [SPEAKER_01]: Especially your material through the handle and the weight is at the end of the handle. 41:04.066 --> 41:06.107 [SPEAKER_01]: So the balance changes. 41:06.147 --> 41:10.489 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, one gram is not one gram removed from the middle of the handle at the end of the handle. 41:10.729 --> 41:11.750 [SPEAKER_01]: So, just make sense. 41:12.302 --> 41:12.782 [SPEAKER_02]: absolutely. 41:13.863 --> 41:24.006 [SPEAKER_02]: And we could make the end kept way lighter, but we wanted to have the ability to compensate for one centimeter different lengths of the handles. 41:24.206 --> 41:32.329 [SPEAKER_02]: So that's why we have a little bit longer of an end kept why there's some added way to it basically. 41:32.809 --> 41:33.929 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think it's well worth the well. 41:38.246 --> 41:42.389 [SPEAKER_02]: the extra two grams, what worth it. 41:43.730 --> 41:57.999 [SPEAKER_03]: So on them, all the modular handles is there until they all have like a common front piece for the transition between the blade and the handle is there like titanium or copper or is it just go straight to wood on the front transition. 42:00.019 --> 42:04.020 [SPEAKER_02]: On the ones that we launched now, it's straight to wood, so we don't have a bolster. 42:04.560 --> 42:15.183 [SPEAKER_02]: We will have full metal handles, as I mentioned before, so fully titanium body handles or full aluminum body handles. 42:15.923 --> 42:23.244 [SPEAKER_02]: I'll probably do something with bolsters as well in the future, but I didn't want to do it for the launch. 42:27.564 --> 42:50.469 [SPEAKER_02]: the complexity, like the possible amount of combinations just goes completely crazy once again because we were launching with 85 different handles and then you have six different ant caps and then you know it's just becoming like a bajillion amounts of 42:56.970 --> 43:00.352 [SPEAKER_03]: Anodized titanium butt cap or end screw. 43:00.432 --> 43:02.294 [SPEAKER_03]: Can I match the front piece with it? 43:02.334 --> 43:04.255 [SPEAKER_03]: Everything, but that's coming in and down the road. 43:05.516 --> 43:08.858 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so many things you can do with the concept. 43:08.978 --> 43:11.480 [SPEAKER_02]: But as you say, we need to go step by step. 43:11.500 --> 43:14.242 [SPEAKER_02]: I am well aware today. 43:14.262 --> 43:21.747 [SPEAKER_02]: I always want to have a fully developed product before I go out to the market and have force myself to 43:22.960 --> 43:29.666 [SPEAKER_02]: kind of to like a minimal viable product before hand and then you know see how the resonances and and go about it. 43:30.547 --> 43:46.941 [SPEAKER_02]: I think the minimal viable product approach comes from software engineering and I've done one software and I've completely failed at it so we did basically we did the blinking lights and the sub ground lighting and the fancy 43:49.701 --> 43:58.909 [SPEAKER_02]: the fancy surface that you can touch around and go through the menu before we had the proper function of the machine itself. 43:58.969 --> 44:01.010 [SPEAKER_02]: So it didn't work, but it was fancy. 44:02.091 --> 44:08.577 [SPEAKER_02]: So I kind of take that to my heart and now I try to work on the function first and then get fancy data. 44:10.522 --> 44:18.012 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's a really good approach to anything, just testing out is it viable and not going. 44:18.272 --> 44:20.896 [SPEAKER_01]: No, it's so easy to start and over things. 44:21.236 --> 44:26.022 [SPEAKER_01]: And then also many options and maybe it's not available product at all. 44:26.623 --> 44:28.324 [SPEAKER_01]: Talking about a viable product. 44:28.724 --> 44:32.585 [SPEAKER_01]: Keans, Keans, this show is sponsored by me, L.T.U. 44:34.026 --> 44:36.887 [SPEAKER_01]: Great Keans, amazing prices, go to me, L.T.U. 44:36.927 --> 44:38.668 [SPEAKER_01]: They are selling the next Keans for you. 44:39.548 --> 44:44.730 [SPEAKER_01]: Made them all and made here in Europe, and you can get them one face to three face, not two face. 44:44.891 --> 44:46.411 [SPEAKER_01]: I guess that's impossible to get two face. 44:46.651 --> 44:46.991 [SPEAKER_01]: Chill. 44:48.692 --> 45:12.363 [SPEAKER_01]: But you can choose from hardware and software and from a fancy controller to a super easy easy one and while you're shopping on miniL.eu you can shop for heat treatment foil and heat treatment racks for batch hardening and remember I check out yours carbon 5 to say 5% so both the Zarnos that you came from us and now my lads miniL.eu let's go back to the show. 45:13.182 --> 45:20.449 [SPEAKER_02]: So, from fact, my first software development was for a heat reading kill that never made it to market because it would of course wait too much. 45:21.170 --> 45:24.954 [SPEAKER_02]: It was a fully automated heat-reading setup. 45:25.014 --> 45:33.242 [SPEAKER_02]: So, we had a manipulator, like two axis manipulator that moved the knife out of a custom made. 45:33.922 --> 45:49.882 [SPEAKER_02]: Furnace into the oil bath you know controlled cyclists of everything and Yeah, we got a very good Human machine interface touched displays and everything fancy lights and Wow 45:51.124 --> 46:05.680 [SPEAKER_02]: which just got stuck with so many bugs in the in the process where we did the whole project that a certain point was like not maintainable, but and I think the main thing that killed the project is that you want to clamp the blade after it's been quenched. 46:06.160 --> 46:10.265 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like okay and that's the whole point like you have to touch the blade afterwards anyways. 46:10.885 --> 46:26.667 [SPEAKER_02]: So, the other than that it would have worked completely nicely, so, you know, you have always the same holding times, you always crunch at the same speed at the same movement in the same oil temperature, and then you have always the same sequence down to the second. 46:27.287 --> 46:30.789 [SPEAKER_02]: But then you have a a warped blade that you didn't clamp. 46:31.429 --> 46:45.416 [SPEAKER_02]: So now it's not straight and Yeah, yeah, I just I can't wear a product And it would of course like 20 25 grand probably to produce one of these and I don't think knife makers are very 46:47.997 --> 46:55.319 [SPEAKER_03]: I think I saw them out, so the remnants of that machine over here, like with Sandbats, I think you were running that out. 46:55.359 --> 46:57.380 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that was the second version already. 46:57.460 --> 46:59.420 [SPEAKER_02]: The first one was wild. 47:02.101 --> 47:04.561 [SPEAKER_01]: I think you posted the video off of it on Instagram. 47:04.581 --> 47:07.742 [SPEAKER_01]: I think I saw it and I was thinking Jesus Christ that school. 47:08.222 --> 47:09.103 [SPEAKER_02]: That's so cool. 47:09.503 --> 47:10.463 [SPEAKER_02]: It is pretty cool, yeah. 47:11.955 --> 47:13.556 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it would work. 47:14.057 --> 47:21.922 [SPEAKER_02]: If you get 50 people that need this kind of machine and they want to pay 20, 20 grand or more for that, well, we can we can make it happen. 47:22.623 --> 47:25.364 [SPEAKER_02]: But I doubt there's a real market for it. 47:26.325 --> 47:32.169 [SPEAKER_02]: Because large kitchen knives, you need to clamp the blade afterwards to get it really nice and straight. 47:32.229 --> 47:32.429 [SPEAKER_02]: So. 47:33.795 --> 47:53.418 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, machine can do everything, but it's, I mean, we could add the clamping feature later, but yeah, but it sounds like more of a product that is customizable for company because I guess companies solve the same issues in multiple ways because they're have the same issues, not especially with heat treatment. 47:53.918 --> 48:07.932 [SPEAKER_01]: or if they are outsourcing or something like that, it's more what like in-house process engineers take care of and then, you know, if you are selling it, something that works out of the box, then it's, you know, inconvenient pricing point, I guess. 48:08.968 --> 48:30.619 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no 100% and then it's a weird in between market because for knife makers it would be, you know, it would be capable of doing like 200 plates per day, which you don't need, but then for large manufacturing companies it's too little and it's not a vacuum furnace, so they also don't care about it, so it's a weird product that's in the middle and which is why I 48:31.359 --> 48:34.242 [SPEAKER_02]: have this continued to pursue this idea. 48:35.063 --> 48:39.628 [SPEAKER_02]: It's not not all ideas, you know, need to be, need to come alive, it's okay. 48:40.729 --> 48:46.214 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a cool artifact in my shop, and it's exactly, it shouldn't, you know, sometimes. 48:47.063 --> 48:53.725 [SPEAKER_01]: you need to have something cool and it doesn't matter if it is commercially viable and that thing that thing is definitely cool. 48:54.085 --> 49:09.169 [SPEAKER_02]: Now it was it was a student project it was my that's basically how I learned programming or why I learned programming it was I wanted to make this machine that makes this thing happen and it was a great there was a great incentive to learn programming 49:16.545 --> 49:21.909 [SPEAKER_01]: knowing programming and using cloud code it's insane. 49:22.329 --> 49:41.083 [SPEAKER_01]: That thing can put if you can write the right prompt and you have at least a little bit of developer background you can look for specific things and you know for see some maybe issues it's so easy to get something really quickly very good for like 99% of the time it works it's just amazing it's just so good 49:41.743 --> 49:50.526 [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm afraid, but I'm afraid, I'm afraid, how much slope there will be, a softwares slope on the internet, it's crazy. 49:52.606 --> 49:56.428 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm hearing about companies writing their own ERP systems. 49:58.388 --> 50:00.769 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just afraid about their security issues. 50:00.789 --> 50:09.872 [SPEAKER_02]: I was going to be so much hit on to everything from books to everything podcast, everything is just, 50:11.143 --> 50:28.932 [SPEAKER_02]: information anything digital has just become very inflationary like everything can be copied can be yeah i don't it's weird it's gonna be interesting where it leads that's why it's really important to be the first one and to lock in your position because everybody that comes after you 50:29.672 --> 50:31.174 [SPEAKER_01]: And they are trying to copy your shit. 50:31.614 --> 50:34.918 [SPEAKER_01]: They are just, you know, walking in your footsteps and you are being two steps ahead. 50:36.239 --> 50:37.380 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, all that matters. 50:37.781 --> 50:52.035 [SPEAKER_03]: So now that you have the modular system like online and you're selling your knives, do you have some kind of Fancy setup on your website where people can pick and choose the pieces they want or how does it work if you want somebody wants to order a knife from you. 50:52.785 --> 50:53.406 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, exactly. 50:54.026 --> 51:08.741 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I would have probably started it a little bit easier, but I ran into two really cool guys who were highly motivated to make this configurator happen. 51:09.981 --> 51:10.621 [SPEAKER_02]: to get it with me. 51:10.942 --> 51:23.826 [SPEAKER_02]: So we really doubled down for the last three, four weeks before the drop and put in way too much hours, way too many hours and way too much effort into making it happen and making it look fancy. 51:23.886 --> 51:32.929 [SPEAKER_02]: So now you can basically we have photographs of each knife and they're all you know photoshopped cropped without a background. 51:33.549 --> 51:39.039 [SPEAKER_02]: And then you can pick the handles, the handle shape, the handle sizes, the handle materials and all of that. 51:39.560 --> 51:42.324 [SPEAKER_02]: And then sort of one thing you get is the picture. 51:43.332 --> 52:05.125 [SPEAKER_02]: but we've also added all of the technical data as much as you can say at least with these natural materials and everything so we have weights for all of the handles, weights for all of the accessories and parts so basically it doesn't only tell you the price of the whole assembly but it also tells you the total weight and the weight of the individual components and all of that. 52:05.940 --> 52:07.541 [SPEAKER_02]: Um, so I think it's pretty cool. 52:07.561 --> 52:15.704 [SPEAKER_02]: So it gives you spits out like a technical data sheet at the same time and it gives you a visual representation of what the knife Um, will look like approximately. 52:16.004 --> 52:17.505 [SPEAKER_03]: They cool with weights and everything. 52:17.525 --> 52:26.488 [SPEAKER_03]: So it's sort of on the website, it puts it all together puts your hand on material together, your butt caps, your weights and all that stuff and then spits it all out. 52:26.829 --> 52:27.249 [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly. 52:27.349 --> 52:27.649 [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly. 52:27.669 --> 52:35.112 [SPEAKER_02]: And then you can always add more weight if you want it to, but that's basically the minimum weight that you will end up and up with. 52:35.612 --> 52:44.877 [SPEAKER_02]: We're we're calling it luck nuts not bot caps luck not just you know Well, I'm sorry. 52:49.019 --> 52:49.399 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry. 52:49.459 --> 52:53.801 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sorry Say I think it was saved. 52:53.841 --> 52:54.462 [SPEAKER_02]: It's important. 52:55.202 --> 52:58.924 [SPEAKER_02]: I think if you know my blood from knife makers to knife makers It's okay can be you but like as well 53:01.586 --> 53:06.350 [SPEAKER_03]: I waited a weighted buck plug, don't forget the grease. 53:07.031 --> 53:13.597 [SPEAKER_03]: So I haven't seen what you've been working on yet for the Edge of Hope project. 53:13.777 --> 53:15.879 [SPEAKER_03]: Is that one of the modular takedown knives also? 53:16.540 --> 53:18.522 [SPEAKER_03]: What we were working on this year, I haven't seen it. 53:21.260 --> 53:22.500 [SPEAKER_02]: I think I sent you some photos. 53:22.540 --> 53:22.900 [SPEAKER_02]: Didn't I? 53:23.921 --> 53:24.441 [SPEAKER_02]: I think I did. 53:25.221 --> 53:31.943 [SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, the knife is on its way to Ben Kimon at the moment, and it is a module to take down. 53:32.783 --> 53:33.163 [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't. 53:34.383 --> 53:42.865 [SPEAKER_02]: I couldn't leave the knife not having apex ultra in it, so I thought well, that a bit of apex ultra in between the 53:50.908 --> 53:57.813 [SPEAKER_02]: I must be recliding a pixel decor, some licorice in between, and then we have to fully modulate it down. 53:58.694 --> 54:09.863 [SPEAKER_02]: It comes with a purple-ish, anodized titanium handle, and a second wooden handle and balancing pins. 54:10.463 --> 54:10.984 [SPEAKER_03]: The whole setup. 54:11.184 --> 54:11.704 [SPEAKER_03]: Very cool. 54:12.385 --> 54:12.545 [SPEAKER_03]: Nice. 54:12.605 --> 54:15.087 [SPEAKER_03]: I can't wait to see them all in person at the show. 54:15.187 --> 54:17.289 [SPEAKER_03]: I hope I'm kind of getting kind of worried now. 54:17.749 --> 54:18.670 [SPEAKER_03]: We got one table. 54:19.511 --> 54:22.053 [SPEAKER_03]: Um, and I got the glass case all put together. 54:22.454 --> 54:29.661 [SPEAKER_03]: I think the table is like 180 by 70 or something that who was So I'm starting to see some some big knives now. 54:29.681 --> 54:30.602 [SPEAKER_03]: You got an extra handle. 54:30.622 --> 54:31.863 [SPEAKER_03]: We got a fair to there. 54:31.884 --> 54:32.764 [SPEAKER_03]: We got bread knives. 54:32.784 --> 54:35.287 [SPEAKER_03]: We got It's gonna be all stacked on top. 54:35.327 --> 54:35.707 [SPEAKER_03]: It's gonna be 54:36.728 --> 54:38.690 [SPEAKER_03]: That the axe from pop star mohugs. 54:38.710 --> 54:43.735 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's gonna be Yeah, we might have to have rig something up for a second table. 54:44.135 --> 54:55.245 [SPEAKER_02]: You'll see you can find a pocket where you can wear the axe on on the back of your On your back For extra storage space How many entries do you have so far? 54:55.546 --> 54:58.008 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, like you print you know pretty much at this point 54:58.840 --> 55:07.467 [SPEAKER_03]: Altogether, 29s, and the one axe from Papstama Hawks, which will be a gift to the boaters. 55:07.487 --> 55:14.413 [SPEAKER_03]: We'll have a QR code at the table that they can scan, vote for their favorite knife at the show on Saturday and Saturday night is usually. 55:15.113 --> 55:17.414 [SPEAKER_03]: Or it will be the awards ceremony for Martin. 55:17.654 --> 55:20.536 [SPEAKER_03]: Who was all the five best of knives? 55:21.296 --> 55:25.019 [SPEAKER_03]: And we'll be presenting that award Saturday night also. 55:25.139 --> 55:29.981 [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that's open for anybody who who's got tickets to the show can come to that award night. 55:31.422 --> 55:33.243 [SPEAKER_03]: So I'll have dinner and award. 55:33.263 --> 55:38.146 [SPEAKER_03]: You can get some drinks there and talk with all the other knife makers to the fun time. 55:38.866 --> 55:40.147 [SPEAKER_03]: If you guys remember from last year, 55:40.947 --> 55:43.252 [SPEAKER_03]: Just make sure you can find your way back to your hotel room. 55:43.432 --> 55:45.016 [SPEAKER_03]: Everybody knows where Harry's is, I think. 55:49.949 --> 55:55.474 [SPEAKER_02]: So I know there's many people who have to come from the yard to the event ceremony this year. 55:55.554 --> 56:03.561 [SPEAKER_03]: Me and Pauli will not be drinking this weekend that weekend so if anybody needs a ride or they forgot where they are. 56:03.641 --> 56:05.463 [SPEAKER_03]: Just come see one of us and we'll help you out. 56:07.725 --> 56:08.966 [SPEAKER_03]: I will show you where Keith is. 56:09.827 --> 56:12.049 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to tell you. 56:14.791 --> 56:21.416 [SPEAKER_03]: Um, so another thing I wanted to talk to you about you have after the Napier Austria you're doing a culinary knife camp. 56:21.756 --> 56:28.421 [SPEAKER_03]: Um, I think you have eight speakers altogether or something and like 40 tickets sold will you be doing it again next year. 56:28.621 --> 56:32.804 [SPEAKER_03]: And can you put like an outside tent so we can get some more people coming to this class. 56:36.125 --> 56:36.666 [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely. 56:36.766 --> 56:52.529 [SPEAKER_02]: For this year, you know, doing it the first time I wanted to have it, I want to be a good, you know, mix of people and that people actually get the value that I hope that they are from this event. 56:52.549 --> 56:56.790 [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, in person conversations and close-up demos and so on. 56:57.270 --> 57:02.612 [SPEAKER_02]: And the demos were one of the things that I was worried about that people couldn't see enough 57:04.612 --> 57:08.675 [SPEAKER_02]: So what we're doing is actually we're going to split even this set up. 57:08.695 --> 57:16.620 [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to split up the 35 40 people into two groups and doing 20 people on each spot. 57:16.720 --> 57:18.401 [SPEAKER_02]: So basically we have two different rooms. 57:19.221 --> 57:25.685 [SPEAKER_02]: One where we have the demos and one where we have the presentations and then everything is going to happen twice and we're going to switch to groups. 57:25.865 --> 57:29.208 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's going to be very private, very small upset set up. 57:30.148 --> 57:34.792 [SPEAKER_02]: So you can, you know, get in there, ask questions, actually see what the fuck's happening. 57:36.173 --> 57:42.578 [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, if everything goes well as planned and people are happy about it, I think we'll be doing it again next year. 57:43.179 --> 57:44.420 [SPEAKER_02]: Bigger and better, hopefully. 57:49.363 --> 57:52.305 [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe next year is also going to be at a different spot. 57:52.585 --> 57:54.205 [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe then we can fit more people. 57:54.405 --> 57:57.607 [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, learn from what we see this year. 57:58.107 --> 58:02.989 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I could have increased the amount of attendees to a lot more. 58:03.249 --> 58:06.010 [SPEAKER_02]: We had so many requests and I feel so sorry. 58:06.390 --> 58:11.533 [SPEAKER_02]: So many people that I would have loved to have over, you know, just to see the conversation. 58:13.374 --> 58:24.180 [SPEAKER_02]: So many people and it's also been a real honor to hear that like entire knife making companies would have packed their entire stuff and stuff and come over like eight people of them. 58:25.901 --> 58:36.648 [SPEAKER_02]: It's really cool to hear and I hope we can actually deliver on what people are expecting from this and if everything goes well we have a lot to learn and then we'll. 58:37.639 --> 58:43.083 [SPEAKER_02]: we will adapt it and make it available to more people next year. 58:43.443 --> 58:50.307 [SPEAKER_03]: And I know you had talked in the past about interest in maybe doing some more specific classes like that. 58:51.688 --> 58:54.810 [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe it's something that if it works out, you do it like twice a year or something like that. 58:54.830 --> 58:57.252 [SPEAKER_03]: It's some higher entry to classes. 58:58.212 --> 58:58.592 [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly. 58:58.672 --> 59:05.477 [SPEAKER_02]: It's always been a dream of mine to build a space where we can exchange knowledge and we can all come together and become better. 59:07.598 --> 59:13.781 [SPEAKER_02]: that I think is a little bit missing here in Europe, there's not as many hammerings, not as much. 59:15.201 --> 59:24.225 [SPEAKER_02]: I think we have a very, very good and close community, but we are not getting together as much and sharing information as maybe some other regions are. 59:25.124 --> 59:45.987 [SPEAKER_02]: and we have so many good knife makers in different perspectives of the game, like in Austria, we have a lot of good culinary knife makers and other parts of Europe, like very specific things that we can learn from and I think it would be great to have the opportunity to exchange more of that in a more structured basis. 59:46.807 --> 59:51.771 [SPEAKER_02]: and give newcomers the ability to learn that in a structured environment. 59:52.251 --> 01:00:02.079 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I heard about the class early on and I really thought about joining it, but I'm just not like a very technical and knife maker. 01:00:02.259 --> 01:00:09.964 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I don't make knives that often and I've been to your shop a few times when some of the other guys are there and their knowledge is like way out of my league. 01:00:09.984 --> 01:00:12.446 [SPEAKER_03]: So I figured I'd leave this box for somebody else who was more 01:00:13.827 --> 01:00:19.868 [SPEAKER_03]: but it would have been nice to go there, it would have been more like hanging out with the people and talk with everybody, but sounds like a very interesting thing. 01:00:19.908 --> 01:00:21.589 [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's also going to be a big part about it. 01:00:22.849 --> 01:00:39.272 [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I mean, at Governor Neffkin, nobody has to attend to a table that's one of the things that are shitty about the show, you can't really talk as much with your peers as you, you would want to usually, because you have to stand behind your table and make that happen. 01:00:44.934 --> 01:00:52.558 [SPEAKER_02]: There's so many good people there, and so many good conversations do we have, and you don't have enough time during the show. 01:00:53.999 --> 01:00:57.741 [SPEAKER_02]: How about the elephant in the room, apex ultra? 01:00:57.941 --> 01:01:00.643 [SPEAKER_03]: When is the next batch coming out? 01:01:00.743 --> 01:01:01.924 [SPEAKER_03]: What's going on? 01:01:02.264 --> 01:01:04.705 [SPEAKER_03]: What's going on with the production of apex ultra? 01:01:04.845 --> 01:01:06.987 [SPEAKER_03]: Is this going to be a reoccurring thing? 01:01:07.805 --> 01:01:08.885 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no, that's for sure. 01:01:09.625 --> 01:01:16.407 [SPEAKER_02]: The moment what we're seeing is actually one of the things that it's quite interesting about Steve making. 01:01:17.327 --> 01:01:23.609 [SPEAKER_02]: We've put in an order and the last, like, like, when we, when we, when did we even ordered a patch? 01:01:23.949 --> 01:01:25.609 [SPEAKER_02]: I think it was one and a half years ago. 01:01:26.309 --> 01:01:29.290 [SPEAKER_02]: We ordered the batch that's coming next February. 01:01:30.818 --> 01:01:45.330 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's a very odd business that we're in because the lead times can jump from, you know, five months to 22 months within two or three months. 01:01:45.511 --> 01:01:49.054 [SPEAKER_02]: So it always depends on how much work to the steel works have. 01:01:49.834 --> 01:01:54.058 [SPEAKER_02]: And as we are, we have five different companies that we're working with at the moment. 01:01:54.780 --> 01:02:03.222 [SPEAKER_02]: It's enough if one of the mills, the rolling mill or the steel mill or the ESR plant, has a bottleneck. 01:02:03.262 --> 01:02:04.602 [SPEAKER_02]: They don't have enough staff. 01:02:04.702 --> 01:02:07.103 [SPEAKER_02]: They, I don't know, have way too much work. 01:02:07.183 --> 01:02:21.425 [SPEAKER_02]: They don't have, and like this time, the problem that's actually happening is that one of the companies had to little work, so they got rid of part of their staff, they got rid of part of their production, and then they had an increase in orders. 01:02:22.006 --> 01:02:23.626 [SPEAKER_02]: So now they have less people, 01:02:24.346 --> 01:02:31.471 [SPEAKER_02]: more orders and all of a sudden they kind of had instead of a few months, they had three times the lead time. 01:02:32.471 --> 01:02:37.374 [SPEAKER_02]: And because our material wasn't on the yard yet, it wasn't planned into production yet. 01:02:38.195 --> 01:02:44.919 [SPEAKER_02]: And then I expected it to arrive in June and instead it arrives in February next year, hopefully. 01:02:45.959 --> 01:02:49.762 [SPEAKER_02]: So one process gets pushed back and it's like a nominal effect. 01:02:50.658 --> 01:03:03.550 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and now it's in February, we're going to get the sheet metal, which Kefflow is always a problem, you know, you have to pre-finite all of this for the two years that it needs to come around. 01:03:04.571 --> 01:03:08.175 [SPEAKER_02]: At the same time, we should be, you know, ordering the steel bars already. 01:03:08.795 --> 01:03:13.036 [SPEAKER_02]: which might have, you know, nine months lead time now or maybe 14. 01:03:13.436 --> 01:03:19.177 [SPEAKER_02]: By the time we're probably running out of bars stock already, but we also need to pre-fine its the sheet stock first. 01:03:19.197 --> 01:03:27.659 [SPEAKER_02]: So I would rather have the sheet stock sell the sheet stock at least, half of the sheet stock and then re-order the bars stock before I expand more. 01:03:27.979 --> 01:03:31.120 [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, it's a very fun game. 01:03:31.380 --> 01:03:34.480 [SPEAKER_02]: We're pawns in it because we're, you know, still very small. 01:03:34.500 --> 01:03:37.201 [SPEAKER_02]: But we get a lot of the big problems. 01:03:38.262 --> 01:03:51.772 [SPEAKER_02]: And obviously the other fun game that we got involved in is the trade wars and their repercussions on the raw material prices, especially tungsten. 01:03:52.833 --> 01:04:04.582 [SPEAKER_02]: So there's like a little backstory, it's basically when Trump started the trade war with China and the actual war, like all of the wars that he's doing right now. 01:04:07.070 --> 01:04:30.184 [SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot of drones going on at the moment, so a lot of attack drones, and one of the things that are doing in the fend of drones is shooting out tungsten particles in the air, basically like a shotgun, but consistently like a like a forehang, like a complete line full of 01:04:34.893 --> 01:04:58.428 [SPEAKER_02]: like a blanket yeah basically like a blanket so all of the drones that are flying are going to be shut down and so that's a very good combination because China produces a lot of tanks that they have um they don't give them any and they need a lot so the price is just completely spiked and skyrocketed because they need a lot for military defense and at the same time China is blocking everybody from their tanks 01:04:59.549 --> 01:05:00.470 [SPEAKER_02]: for political reasons. 01:05:01.231 --> 01:05:07.721 [SPEAKER_02]: And now Carboit, tanks and carboit plates have gone up and you know we have 2.5 to 0.6% of tanks in the steel. 01:05:07.741 --> 01:05:08.061 [SPEAKER_02]: And this 01:05:13.376 --> 01:05:42.043 [SPEAKER_02]: this 2.5% and the 7 times price increase that we've seen in Tankston actually made up for a total price increase of the raw melt of I can't remember exactly but I think it was 85% more expensive during a short time so it's like I'm not ordering right now I don't know what the fact is going on but I'm not ordering right now I can't I can't do double the cost it's that's not working 01:05:43.583 --> 01:05:46.565 [SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah, we're tiptoeing a little bit. 01:05:46.825 --> 01:05:49.907 [SPEAKER_02]: It's hard, you know, nobody knows how the Romatera is and everything. 01:05:49.927 --> 01:05:56.911 [SPEAKER_02]: Our developing, they have called down a little bit, so it's not that crazy anymore. 01:05:57.232 --> 01:05:58.592 [SPEAKER_02]: It's a lot better already again. 01:06:01.194 --> 01:06:04.096 [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, nothing that we can influence really. 01:06:04.356 --> 01:06:07.158 [SPEAKER_03]: It's like basically gas prices going up and down. 01:06:07.943 --> 01:06:37.486 [SPEAKER_02]: have situation most of its out of your hands, but unfortunately I'm sure you have to do with it all the time people ask and when is it kind of coming in one of your emails and answering people and calling people back and the most frustrating part is the US market because we see there is so much demand for it so many people want to get into this performance deal it fits the US market so well but basically until the steel is there it costs twice as much as we have it here. 01:06:38.167 --> 01:06:44.300 [SPEAKER_02]: So, it just feels off to pay 100% import duties by unshipping. 01:06:44.320 --> 01:06:44.981 [SPEAKER_02]: So, 01:06:46.722 --> 01:06:50.824 [SPEAKER_02]: we just get basically, we get a lot of requests. 01:06:51.384 --> 01:07:08.810 [SPEAKER_02]: We write a lot of shipping quotations and get information on what it's going to cost and then it's usually a note so it's work and time and we know there's demand but we don't sell any to the US and now we're back to almost having no retailers again in the US. 01:07:10.302 --> 01:07:17.604 [SPEAKER_02]: So we've just updated our list and it's become a short especially in the US and the Europe is working perfectly fine. 01:07:18.525 --> 01:07:25.447 [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah then we thought you know why not work around the problem, why not produce a pixel jar in the US? 01:07:27.467 --> 01:07:29.168 [SPEAKER_02]: Wouldn't be much cheaper to be honest. 01:07:30.752 --> 01:07:32.833 [SPEAKER_02]: They also have to think of the raw materials. 01:07:33.294 --> 01:07:34.294 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 01:07:34.575 --> 01:07:38.917 [SPEAKER_02]: It wasn't cheap and they have a very high minimum order volume. 01:07:39.678 --> 01:07:44.962 [SPEAKER_02]: So at that point, we would be looking at, I think, 200 grand to produce a batch. 01:07:46.563 --> 01:07:48.904 [SPEAKER_02]: And that was also, no. 01:07:49.144 --> 01:07:49.344 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 01:07:51.926 --> 01:07:52.427 [SPEAKER_03]: Surprise. 01:07:53.513 --> 01:08:05.705 [SPEAKER_03]: It's a big risk, he mentioned the last time I think if you had 200 grand up on there and those of Eris somewhere in the process, they have some kind of a clause where they're not liable for that, or up to a certain amount of something like that. 01:08:06.806 --> 01:08:14.213 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's the problem with the production route that we're taking right now, where we're basically stitching together individual 01:08:16.820 --> 01:08:23.910 [SPEAKER_02]: Because everybody's not reliable for anything they do, basically, only until the amounts that they are judging you. 01:08:24.931 --> 01:08:30.058 [SPEAKER_02]: So in the worst case scenario, the last meal messes up your whole stock. 01:08:31.284 --> 01:08:32.344 [SPEAKER_02]: They give you the scraps. 01:08:32.444 --> 01:08:36.325 [SPEAKER_02]: They say like here, there's still the raw material and when charging you. 01:08:36.565 --> 01:08:42.507 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's like if you bring your car to the mechanic, say, please fix my brakes. 01:08:43.147 --> 01:08:46.188 [SPEAKER_02]: He crashes it from the elevator thingy. 01:08:46.988 --> 01:08:51.109 [SPEAKER_02]: And it gives you the car back, it's like sorry, but I'm not charging you for the brakes. 01:08:51.129 --> 01:08:52.209 [SPEAKER_02]: The brakes are on that they're new. 01:09:01.138 --> 01:09:01.859 [SPEAKER_02]: that's the usual. 01:09:02.019 --> 01:09:04.620 [SPEAKER_02]: Nobody agrees to anything else. 01:09:04.640 --> 01:09:14.427 [SPEAKER_02]: The only thing how you can get around it is if you buy the product completely finished from one mill, then they say, okay, we take all of the risk, then they make it for you. 01:09:14.727 --> 01:09:19.070 [SPEAKER_02]: But there's no mill doing the quality that we want in the small enough capacity. 01:09:19.611 --> 01:09:24.054 [SPEAKER_02]: So again, we couldn't be purchasing two four or six tons, we would be 01:09:25.335 --> 01:09:39.725 [SPEAKER_02]: We would have to order 12 tons at a higher price that we currently ordering 4 or 6 tons and then we have to pre-finance that and the money is for free as well So you have to pre-finance it for two years until you have it 01:09:40.345 --> 01:09:43.409 [SPEAKER_02]: And then you have to pre-finance it until you sell it basically. 01:09:43.729 --> 01:09:48.875 [SPEAKER_02]: So we would be pre-financing again a lot of money for five, six, seven years. 01:09:49.296 --> 01:09:52.119 [SPEAKER_02]: And at that point, it doesn't make sense. 01:09:52.139 --> 01:09:53.000 [SPEAKER_02]: Let me explain it more. 01:09:53.621 --> 01:09:58.787 [SPEAKER_02]: I'd rather take the risk and yeah, cost that in basically. 01:09:59.448 --> 01:10:11.443 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, when the sheet stock came out, the 2.5 millimeter and the Moziado on 3.36, 3.6, it was a lot of demand. 01:10:11.464 --> 01:10:14.047 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm a surprise to all these people that are anxious to hand-sand. 01:10:14.387 --> 01:10:16.150 [SPEAKER_03]: If they pack so much of it, there was a lot of it. 01:10:18.573 --> 01:10:37.333 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we've gone pretty quickly and that's the middle that's always the one that's fluctuating the most So when I when I first Thought about making epic soldier, we obviously we got in contact with all of these steel mills and Asked for different routes and all of it 01:10:38.153 --> 01:10:53.343 [SPEAKER_02]: And at that time, the sheet rolling mill was at 26 months lead time, so you would have to order more than two years in advance to get your material made to years later. 01:10:54.284 --> 01:10:58.167 [SPEAKER_02]: And that was the main reason why we went for bar stock instead. 01:10:58.907 --> 01:11:01.049 [SPEAKER_02]: because it was only 12 months. 01:11:01.169 --> 01:11:03.030 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's like, okay, we're making bars stuck now. 01:11:06.152 --> 01:11:06.753 [SPEAKER_02]: It's crazy. 01:11:06.953 --> 01:11:09.354 [SPEAKER_02]: Crazy industry and lots of money. 01:11:09.875 --> 01:11:10.495 [SPEAKER_02]: The entire up. 01:11:11.556 --> 01:11:13.257 [SPEAKER_02]: It's very frustrating because you have an idea. 01:11:13.317 --> 01:11:14.017 [SPEAKER_02]: You want to do it. 01:11:14.098 --> 01:11:21.102 [SPEAKER_02]: You want to, you know, you go, and you have everything ready and then you wait for one and a half years until you get it. 01:11:22.023 --> 01:11:22.463 [SPEAKER_02]: Eventually. 01:11:23.724 --> 01:11:25.626 [SPEAKER_02]: But I have another project coming with that as well. 01:11:26.287 --> 01:11:30.412 [SPEAKER_02]: It's going to be good, but it still also takes time. 01:11:30.472 --> 01:11:31.473 [SPEAKER_02]: Probably next summer. 01:11:34.436 --> 01:11:39.122 [SPEAKER_02]: It's steel and apex ultra related. 01:11:41.170 --> 01:11:55.618 [SPEAKER_02]: And it has to do something with our lemonade, and yeah, we'll speak more about it when I have the thing in my hands because if I tease it now, people would want it, maybe hopefully, and we don't have any until next year. 01:11:55.858 --> 01:12:02.021 [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, we're skating up lemonade a little bit. 01:12:03.722 --> 01:12:06.064 [SPEAKER_02]: We've done some very good tests on it. 01:12:06.384 --> 01:12:08.365 [SPEAKER_02]: That project has also been going for two years now. 01:12:10.105 --> 01:12:12.786 [SPEAKER_02]: And we're going to make some good sandwiches in the future. 01:12:13.386 --> 01:12:14.746 [SPEAKER_02]: That'll be a future episode. 01:12:14.986 --> 01:12:15.427 [SPEAKER_02]: Sounds like. 01:12:17.227 --> 01:12:17.627 [SPEAKER_02]: Next time. 01:12:18.267 --> 01:12:18.927 [SPEAKER_03]: Next episode. 01:12:19.448 --> 01:12:20.168 [SPEAKER_03]: More sandwiches. 01:12:20.608 --> 01:12:21.028 [SPEAKER_03]: Very cool. 01:12:21.048 --> 01:12:27.149 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, is there anything that we missed about the take-down system or upcoming projects? 01:12:27.269 --> 01:12:28.230 [SPEAKER_03]: Anything you want to plug? 01:12:28.330 --> 01:12:30.670 [SPEAKER_03]: I know you'll be at the Napier Austria. 01:12:30.790 --> 01:12:33.891 [SPEAKER_03]: You and you're also doing a stay on the apex ultra, I think. 01:12:34.231 --> 01:12:37.392 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we're going to have our stance right next to each other again. 01:12:37.412 --> 01:12:39.892 [SPEAKER_02]: So basically we're bringing knives. 01:12:40.612 --> 01:12:42.853 [SPEAKER_02]: We will have our takedown knives with us. 01:12:43.853 --> 01:12:48.494 [SPEAKER_02]: So there will be a couple of glued up fixed knives basically as well. 01:12:49.434 --> 01:12:54.735 [SPEAKER_02]: Because obviously we had a lot of these still in production at different stages and we will continue to make some of them. 01:12:55.495 --> 01:13:01.777 [SPEAKER_02]: But most we're going to try to bring takedown knives and handles so you can put your knife together right 01:13:03.657 --> 01:13:06.419 [SPEAKER_02]: have it in your hand and then take it, take it back home. 01:13:07.440 --> 01:13:15.046 [SPEAKER_02]: And we're also going to bring some some of those lemonade, so lemonade steels with the apex ultra core that we're doing and apex ultra raw stock. 01:13:16.948 --> 01:13:18.029 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's basically it. 01:13:18.149 --> 01:13:23.133 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and that's also the main thing that we're working towards. 01:13:23.453 --> 01:13:31.740 [SPEAKER_02]: It's been rough the last couple of weeks getting everything ready for for this release with the configurator and everything in the last technical issues. 01:13:32.661 --> 01:13:41.652 [SPEAKER_02]: then we're pushing for knife show and then there's Christmas and then, yeah, we also forgot DCI, are you into DCI? 01:13:42.112 --> 01:13:44.235 [SPEAKER_02]: No, yeah, I didn't. 01:13:45.056 --> 01:13:49.041 [SPEAKER_02]: I made the very same decision to not do DCI this year. 01:13:50.922 --> 01:14:11.908 [SPEAKER_02]: smart choice I guess you would have been too much if you do something like that you want to do it properly I think it's not it's no good advertising if you're on there with something very average and something very mundane well why don't you tell everybody your website if they don't know how to get a hold of these new knives that you got up 01:14:12.799 --> 01:14:21.642 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you can check out the configurator if you're curious at www.messachmide-hangler.at. 01:14:22.522 --> 01:14:25.503 [SPEAKER_02]: And then you go to Knife's, it's very short one. 01:14:28.504 --> 01:14:33.686 [SPEAKER_02]: And then you go to Knife's and click on Available soon available. 01:14:33.926 --> 01:14:38.368 [SPEAKER_02]: That's basically where we have our configurator and you can build your knife. 01:14:39.288 --> 01:14:56.373 [SPEAKER_02]: We've sold like two thirds of them right the minutes that we released them order on the day that we released it but they're still some nice Available or some plays available that you can configure and it can order right now if you want even before I show 01:14:57.513 --> 01:14:59.134 [SPEAKER_03]: We can put these in the show notes. 01:14:59.174 --> 01:15:01.256 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sure all our listeners know who you are. 01:15:01.296 --> 01:15:05.219 [SPEAKER_03]: If you had to go to his website, you can change everything over to English. 01:15:05.319 --> 01:15:13.265 [SPEAKER_03]: So it's very easy for the English speaking guys to navigate it and come check them out at knife show after you do you know your table number? 01:15:13.786 --> 01:15:14.266 [SPEAKER_03]: No, I don't. 01:15:15.807 --> 01:15:17.589 [SPEAKER_03]: Somewhere on the right hand side in the middle, I think. 01:15:18.029 --> 01:15:18.389 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 01:15:19.670 --> 01:15:20.992 [SPEAKER_02]: Just go looking for us. 01:15:21.252 --> 01:15:21.852 [SPEAKER_02]: You'll find this. 01:15:22.072 --> 01:15:22.893 [SPEAKER_02]: Just follow it. 01:15:22.913 --> 01:15:23.754 [SPEAKER_03]: Just run around yelling 01:15:27.504 --> 01:15:32.586 [SPEAKER_02]: If you looked on the plan, you can probably also find our name, but at the time you found our number. 01:15:34.386 --> 01:15:34.806 [SPEAKER_02]: It's true. 01:15:35.266 --> 01:15:40.408 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, thank you so much for coming on the show with us and explaining this cool idea you had. 01:15:41.208 --> 01:15:43.189 [SPEAKER_03]: Can't wait to see some of these knives in person. 01:15:43.589 --> 01:15:45.569 [SPEAKER_03]: And we will talk to everybody next time. 01:15:45.589 --> 01:15:46.029 [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks for having me. 01:15:47.070 --> 01:15:47.530 [SPEAKER_03]: Bye, Paulie. 01:15:47.750 --> 01:15:48.490 [SPEAKER_03]: Bye for now. 01:15:53.935 --> 01:15:56.062 [SPEAKER_01]: I got one podcast on Patreon. 01:15:56.083 --> 01:16:00.177 [SPEAKER_01]: Blow out one of the episodes. 01:16:00.719 --> 01:16:01.421 [SPEAKER_01]: Great review. 01:16:01.682 --> 01:16:02.204 [SPEAKER_01]: Five stars.