WEBVTT 00:01.877 --> 00:09.280 [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the intentional fatherhood podcast, where we explore what it means to live on purpose as a father and how legacy starts at home. 00:09.920 --> 00:16.623 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm Justin Whitmorely, and I'm Brooke Moser, we'll be your hosts, and we desire to bring biblical hope and practical hope. 00:17.163 --> 00:18.004 [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for listening. 00:19.745 --> 00:21.725 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just telling you, I'm gonna throw it off. 00:21.745 --> 00:23.506 [SPEAKER_00]: No, why are you telling me that? 00:23.546 --> 00:24.266 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, let's see what you do. 00:24.326 --> 00:25.407 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm telling you, I'm gonna throw it off. 00:26.733 --> 00:27.934 [SPEAKER_00]: You don't know what the believe me in that. 00:27.994 --> 00:28.275 [SPEAKER_00]: Go on. 00:29.336 --> 00:30.838 [SPEAKER_00]: Rock, paper, scissors shoot. 00:32.319 --> 00:34.101 [SPEAKER_00]: Wow, you just want to introduce really bad. 00:34.121 --> 00:34.882 [SPEAKER_00]: All right, fine, go. 00:35.603 --> 00:35.803 [SPEAKER_00]: Go. 00:37.142 --> 00:40.524 [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome back to the intentional fatherhood podcast. 00:41.144 --> 00:45.386 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sitting here with my wonderful co-host and friend with a great beard this season. 00:46.006 --> 00:46.506 [SPEAKER_01]: Love the beard. 00:46.526 --> 00:46.926 [SPEAKER_01]: That's true. 00:47.507 --> 00:48.527 [SPEAKER_01]: Adjusting women early. 00:48.667 --> 00:49.167 [SPEAKER_00]: Here he is. 00:50.208 --> 00:51.448 [SPEAKER_00]: I am actually a little self-conscious. 00:51.488 --> 00:53.149 [SPEAKER_00]: I desperately need to shave this thing. 00:53.169 --> 00:54.030 [SPEAKER_00]: It's getting out of control. 00:54.330 --> 00:56.691 [SPEAKER_01]: When you got off the plane, I was like, 00:57.331 --> 00:59.572 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it feels, I feel like you did this on purpose. 00:59.732 --> 01:12.138 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, well, I swear today we were in Colorado last week and I asked the boys and Lauren at dinner one night in like June and I was like, I just keep growing my beard and sort of have like a mountain man beard for Colorado and to my surprise Lauren was like, absolutely. 01:12.158 --> 01:13.199 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, she's the most cool. 01:13.279 --> 01:13.699 [SPEAKER_00]: I love that. 01:14.179 --> 01:14.940 [SPEAKER_00]: And the boys were too. 01:14.960 --> 01:15.160 [SPEAKER_00]: And then. 01:15.900 --> 01:19.081 [SPEAKER_00]: That was last week, and it's just been longer than I thought I heard. 01:19.161 --> 01:23.482 [SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, I'm like, every time I get on a zoom call with a client, I'm like a little bit embarrassed. 01:23.522 --> 01:25.223 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you're East Coast, man. 01:25.303 --> 01:28.463 [SPEAKER_01]: I got that proper stray lace, but no, it's illiterate. 01:28.763 --> 01:32.444 [SPEAKER_00]: But for people who aren't watching and just listening, actually don't care about the beard thing. 01:32.484 --> 01:36.606 [SPEAKER_00]: I just want you to know that I kept my word and through rock and broke. 01:37.246 --> 01:39.086 [SPEAKER_00]: Really wanted to introduce, I guess, any through paper. 01:39.126 --> 01:43.087 [SPEAKER_00]: But at least you trust me, because then I do some of my boys and like, hey, 01:46.120 --> 02:07.455 [SPEAKER_01]: mine game he's probably good at that's it's actually what I feel right now and my guess was well actually it takes equal amount of trust because I was it you could have easily taken advantage and done scissors and been like here's where I'm going to do super stuff to beat me who's super messed up do you don't think this is super messed up I did I have integrity I threw what I said I was going to throw 02:08.235 --> 02:09.436 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, here we are. 02:10.437 --> 02:13.320 [SPEAKER_01]: We've had a lovely season season four on vice. 02:13.400 --> 02:14.120 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm having fun. 02:14.180 --> 02:14.661 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm having fun. 02:14.681 --> 02:15.401 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm having great time. 02:15.582 --> 02:17.043 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, tell people real quick. 02:17.523 --> 02:18.304 [SPEAKER_01]: Tell them what to come soon. 02:18.324 --> 02:19.045 [SPEAKER_01]: Tell them what we're doing. 02:19.085 --> 02:19.865 [SPEAKER_01]: Give a couple updates. 02:19.905 --> 02:21.046 [SPEAKER_01]: This is just business and friends. 02:21.127 --> 02:22.107 [SPEAKER_01]: Please don't skip past this part. 02:22.608 --> 02:27.072 [SPEAKER_01]: We have things that we talk about and want to let you know about that we work hard for you to know about. 02:27.092 --> 02:27.352 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 02:27.412 --> 02:28.153 [SPEAKER_01]: So just take a second. 02:28.413 --> 02:29.074 [SPEAKER_01]: Just and give a couple. 02:29.094 --> 02:29.594 [SPEAKER_01]: That's up. 02:29.654 --> 02:30.515 [SPEAKER_00]: really quick where we are. 02:30.555 --> 02:33.757 [SPEAKER_00]: You're in season four of the intentional fatherhood podcast. 02:33.797 --> 02:34.978 [SPEAKER_00]: Our first three seasons. 02:35.018 --> 02:38.700 [SPEAKER_00]: We set on a map of the tension points of fatherhood. 02:38.720 --> 02:43.223 [SPEAKER_00]: Then we set out a stage in season two of how fatherhood progresses. 02:43.263 --> 02:45.025 [SPEAKER_00]: And now we're in season three, four. 02:45.065 --> 02:45.625 [SPEAKER_00]: And so on. 02:45.645 --> 02:48.207 [SPEAKER_00]: We're going through each of the tension points of fatherhood. 02:48.227 --> 02:49.588 [SPEAKER_00]: We did work last season. 02:49.608 --> 02:51.029 [SPEAKER_00]: We're doing vices this season. 02:51.689 --> 02:54.871 [SPEAKER_00]: But this is not the only way you engage with our stuff. 02:55.011 --> 02:58.893 [SPEAKER_00]: We would love for you to come to a fatherhood retreat. 02:59.534 --> 03:04.236 [SPEAKER_00]: Look at the website, tentialfatherhood.org for the most recent one in the city near you. 03:04.917 --> 03:06.298 [SPEAKER_00]: Come to an in the room if you can. 03:06.318 --> 03:07.498 [SPEAKER_00]: There's a free event. 03:07.518 --> 03:09.620 [SPEAKER_00]: You'll see periodically where you get in the room with us. 03:10.380 --> 03:11.120 [SPEAKER_00]: Or participants. 03:11.621 --> 03:12.601 [SPEAKER_00]: I think our favorite thing. 03:12.981 --> 03:14.782 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I probably might favorite things about the hood retreat. 03:14.843 --> 03:15.023 [SPEAKER_00]: But. 03:15.763 --> 03:26.234 [SPEAKER_00]: The thing that I think honors me the most is when people say, hey, this podcast was so helpful, a friend sent it to me, or I'm sending it to you with a group of guys. 03:26.314 --> 03:28.096 [SPEAKER_00]: If you're enjoying this, praise God. 03:28.416 --> 03:29.077 [SPEAKER_00]: Don't keep it yourself. 03:30.578 --> 03:33.621 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, like it, subscribe to it and send it to a friend. 03:34.582 --> 03:35.742 [SPEAKER_00]: Or send us a question about it. 03:35.762 --> 03:39.103 [SPEAKER_00]: There's a great way to engage with the content that help other people find it. 03:39.143 --> 03:41.444 [SPEAKER_00]: We always want this podcast to be listened to in community. 03:41.484 --> 03:45.745 [SPEAKER_00]: So please come hang out with us at one of the events or do one of those things. 03:46.705 --> 03:50.706 [SPEAKER_01]: Many of you have been asking about merch to want to let you know that we're in it right now. 03:50.786 --> 03:53.087 [SPEAKER_00]: You're wearing it right now and I wear it all the time because. 03:54.279 --> 03:54.880 [SPEAKER_00]: I've said this before. 03:54.900 --> 03:56.041 [SPEAKER_00]: I'll say it again in public. 03:56.121 --> 03:59.263 [SPEAKER_00]: Brookbrook designed it and it is like really good. 03:59.404 --> 04:00.825 [SPEAKER_01]: I just love the one you have. 04:00.945 --> 04:06.350 [SPEAKER_01]: The one you have is probably one of the more basic ones in the sense of like it's obviously the brand on the shirt. 04:06.670 --> 04:13.035 [SPEAKER_01]: But then we have a whole bunch of other things that are fun and yeah, it was fun thing, but we have, I showed you the. 04:13.816 --> 04:14.817 [SPEAKER_01]: to show you the couple new items. 04:14.837 --> 04:15.317 [SPEAKER_01]: We might have. 04:15.417 --> 04:16.178 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 04:16.218 --> 04:19.520 [SPEAKER_01]: So, I mean, let me just give you a t-super pump about the wolf on the web. 04:19.540 --> 04:20.480 [SPEAKER_01]: Don't tell anybody. 04:20.560 --> 04:20.740 [SPEAKER_01]: Oops. 04:21.221 --> 04:23.882 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, we have a couple new drops that we're going to do at this new event. 04:23.942 --> 04:25.183 [SPEAKER_01]: So you're into merch. 04:25.223 --> 04:27.885 [SPEAKER_01]: And then, you know, you're asked, many people, like, we sell it online. 04:28.105 --> 04:29.786 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe, but we're not trying to get keep. 04:30.026 --> 04:30.826 [SPEAKER_01]: Here's the end of the deal. 04:31.127 --> 04:34.529 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, these things take time to build and to actually, like, 04:35.089 --> 04:36.470 [SPEAKER_01]: back in and all of that stuff. 04:36.510 --> 04:44.174 [SPEAKER_01]: And so we are definitely open to doing that, but we're still in the space where this thing is, you know, I put it a little differently. 04:44.515 --> 04:46.296 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's kind of messed up, but I like it. 04:47.016 --> 04:50.098 [SPEAKER_00]: You're like dangling bait in front of people, because you know the merch is awesome. 04:50.118 --> 04:51.579 [SPEAKER_00]: And you're like, you can't buy it. 04:51.599 --> 04:52.940 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you have to kind of fatherhood. 04:53.020 --> 04:56.162 [SPEAKER_01]: I actually don't think this is, I mean, I think it's actually kind of great. 04:56.222 --> 04:56.542 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, 04:56.942 --> 04:57.342 [SPEAKER_00]: You know what? 04:57.643 --> 05:03.087 [SPEAKER_00]: We're not going to try to sell sweatshirts to make money, but we do what you to come to the retreat to have your life changed. 05:03.127 --> 05:04.148 [SPEAKER_00]: By the way, you get a sweatshirt there. 05:04.208 --> 05:08.712 [SPEAKER_01]: This is a good, this is actually a great vantage point. 05:08.732 --> 05:11.254 [SPEAKER_01]: This is a great perspective that maybe I'm not fully seeing. 05:11.274 --> 05:14.978 [SPEAKER_01]: So I actually think that's a good thing to maybe name or mention that 05:15.718 --> 05:17.879 [SPEAKER_01]: I, that isn't actually the heart of it at all. 05:18.379 --> 05:23.280 [SPEAKER_01]: It's the logistics of like when you become like fulfillment to think. 05:23.440 --> 05:27.101 [SPEAKER_01]: So you either do that with a particular company, but here's another thing. 05:27.861 --> 05:34.423 [SPEAKER_01]: The stuff that we design some of its custom and some of its very high quality and you can't just most of those companies don't just also drop shit. 05:34.503 --> 05:34.763 [SPEAKER_00]: Right, we're 05:35.023 --> 05:40.747 [SPEAKER_01]: So there's this weird conundrum of like, do we just become a shipping company and shipping organization at intentional? 05:41.068 --> 05:44.570 [SPEAKER_01]: And there's no, we don't, but we are working on some ideas. 05:44.610 --> 05:45.471 [SPEAKER_01]: So just hang tight. 05:45.971 --> 05:49.554 [SPEAKER_01]: But I can say this, nothing is going to be dropped before November. 05:49.594 --> 05:51.936 [SPEAKER_01]: But if you would like merch, we will be in Austin. 05:51.956 --> 05:55.938 [SPEAKER_01]: They'll be some wonderful stuff and a couple new items. 05:56.759 --> 05:57.540 [SPEAKER_00]: A couple new items. 05:58.080 --> 06:03.841 [SPEAKER_00]: But let's talk about buying stuff on the next episode on Greed because we got about eating and drinking stuff on this episode. 06:03.881 --> 06:04.301 [SPEAKER_00]: I love it. 06:04.381 --> 06:07.702 [SPEAKER_00]: This is an episode on gluttony. 06:08.562 --> 06:10.542 [SPEAKER_00]: Just remind you of the past couple weeks. 06:11.223 --> 06:15.784 [SPEAKER_00]: We started with three sins of seeing the world wrong. 06:16.784 --> 06:20.905 [SPEAKER_00]: Not seeing the world, the way that God sees it and those were the sins of 06:24.514 --> 06:25.174 [SPEAKER_00]: What was that, third one? 06:25.895 --> 06:28.417 [SPEAKER_00]: That was, wait for it and be, there it is. 06:29.818 --> 06:35.442 [SPEAKER_00]: And then our three that were in now are sins of engaging with the world in disordered desires. 06:35.702 --> 06:38.224 [SPEAKER_00]: So, these are that a little bit more outward sins. 06:38.244 --> 06:39.605 [SPEAKER_00]: We talked about lust on the last episode. 06:39.625 --> 06:41.366 [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to have a gluttony on this one and then greed. 06:41.666 --> 06:41.906 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 06:42.046 --> 06:44.948 [SPEAKER_00]: Next, gluttony eating or drinking. 06:45.829 --> 06:46.589 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's look at that. 06:46.649 --> 06:48.491 [SPEAKER_00]: It's such a huge topic. 06:48.651 --> 06:50.712 [SPEAKER_00]: I cannot wait to talk about it because honestly, 06:52.433 --> 07:07.083 [SPEAKER_00]: I've never had a huge problem with either of these things in the world's eyes probably, but the work that the Lord has done in my life to bring me to a healthier place of how I eat and how I drink have honestly been super significant changes in my life. 07:07.103 --> 07:14.308 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's a kind of thing where I didn't think I had a huge problem and yet the work that the Lord has done in my life has been way more impactful than I thought. 07:14.808 --> 07:20.952 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm excited to try to help people with this, but you need to start us work on sort of defining what are we talking about when we talk about 07:21.412 --> 07:21.732 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 07:22.592 --> 07:26.594 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I mean, just like the last episode with less disorder desire. 07:26.634 --> 07:27.734 [SPEAKER_00]: This is in that game. 07:27.814 --> 07:28.034 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 07:28.054 --> 07:30.655 [SPEAKER_01]: So maybe just to we'll make this very simple. 07:31.195 --> 07:35.056 [SPEAKER_01]: This is in that camp, but obviously is to be noted different. 07:35.256 --> 07:40.198 [SPEAKER_01]: And we have to just name some of that because it will be a little confusing, but also similar. 07:40.598 --> 07:44.962 [SPEAKER_01]: So gluttony essentially is that disorder desire to consume beyond what you actually need. 07:45.582 --> 07:52.527 [SPEAKER_01]: So there's a certain amount that we all need and it's the interesting thing obviously gluttony can be connected primarily and is to food. 07:52.607 --> 07:55.069 [SPEAKER_01]: But again, just like last episode, it's deeper. 07:56.070 --> 07:57.431 [SPEAKER_01]: It's eating more than you need. 07:57.491 --> 07:58.692 [SPEAKER_01]: It's drinking more than you need. 07:58.852 --> 08:00.614 [SPEAKER_00]: It is what you say primarily to food. 08:00.794 --> 08:02.495 [SPEAKER_00]: You don't necessarily mean not to drink, right? 08:03.343 --> 08:04.164 [SPEAKER_00]: No, I don't mean not to drink. 08:04.204 --> 08:06.845 [SPEAKER_00]: I just mean because I see it kind of equally to food and drink. 08:07.366 --> 08:09.147 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I guess I would say equally to food. 08:09.187 --> 08:10.388 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I wasn't actually making that. 08:10.468 --> 08:11.308 [SPEAKER_00]: That's a great clear of our. 08:11.628 --> 08:12.709 [SPEAKER_01]: I wasn't defining food. 08:12.989 --> 08:17.192 [SPEAKER_01]: I put them in the same category, consumption of something internally in your body. 08:18.273 --> 08:26.358 [SPEAKER_01]: But there's also outward, you know, letting me think things that can lead to letting me scrolling, shopping. 08:26.698 --> 08:33.985 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, what are the things that you're doing that are, you are doing what you're doing too much of to try to fill a deeper problem. 08:34.005 --> 08:39.169 [SPEAKER_01]: So there's a lot of men that I know that are walking around, that are not thinking, I struggle with flattening, right? 08:39.269 --> 08:42.232 [SPEAKER_01]: But in fact, some of the most fit people in the world struggle with flattening. 08:42.452 --> 08:59.822 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it is not a physical attribute alone and I wouldn't even say that it would ever be fair to just immediately see someone who's out of shape or overweight and just immediately assume all they've must struggle with gluttony and this other person doesn't. 09:00.402 --> 09:27.282 [SPEAKER_01]: Let me just like these other things are a heart issue and to be fair there's so many factors that would go into somebody's biological health Yes, there's certain people that can eat whatever they want never game weight and are more gluttonous than anyone else and again Jesus doesn't care about necessarily in the sense of the outward condition he's Primarily concerned with the heart and so that's what it's more about one thing that's been helpful for me to hear is Your metabolism can hide your sins 09:27.922 --> 09:28.463 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, that's a good one. 09:28.483 --> 09:29.964 [SPEAKER_00]: And it can also hide your virtues. 09:31.425 --> 09:35.768 [SPEAKER_00]: So what we're not talking about is body imagered the way that your body looks because of how you eat. 09:35.848 --> 09:42.773 [SPEAKER_00]: We are talking about that upstream heart desire of why you're eating and why you're drinking. 09:42.833 --> 09:43.074 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 09:43.454 --> 09:50.980 [SPEAKER_00]: And are you doing it out of gratitude or need or delight in God's creation or are you coping? 09:51.520 --> 09:53.902 [SPEAKER_00]: Is something wrong and you're going to food or drink? 09:54.723 --> 09:59.288 [SPEAKER_00]: And just to connect for the listeners, underlining what you already said. 10:00.229 --> 10:01.570 [SPEAKER_00]: This can happen sexually. 10:01.991 --> 10:03.373 [SPEAKER_00]: When we do that, we call it lust. 10:03.613 --> 10:06.696 [SPEAKER_00]: This can happen in buying stuff. 10:07.057 --> 10:09.900 [SPEAKER_00]: And when we do that, we call it greed, or talk about the next episode. 10:10.240 --> 10:11.462 [SPEAKER_00]: This can happen with distraction. 10:11.482 --> 10:13.784 [SPEAKER_00]: And when we do that, we call it cd or sloth. 10:14.465 --> 10:18.248 [SPEAKER_00]: But gluttonies are a particular way of coping with difficult things in your life. 10:18.288 --> 10:28.676 [SPEAKER_00]: And that is you consume food or drink to hide or get through a problem that can't be solved by food or drink. 10:28.796 --> 10:29.036 [SPEAKER_00]: Right? 10:29.857 --> 10:31.398 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, not only, right. 10:31.418 --> 10:40.205 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, the deeper question to some is to some that ideas, what do you reach for when you don't want to feel what you're feeling? 10:40.425 --> 10:40.665 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 10:41.125 --> 10:41.846 [SPEAKER_01]: What does it you go for? 10:41.866 --> 10:42.626 [SPEAKER_01]: Is it alcohol? 10:42.806 --> 10:43.506 [SPEAKER_01]: More food? 10:44.427 --> 10:45.847 [SPEAKER_01]: Is it buying something? 10:45.968 --> 10:47.908 [SPEAKER_01]: Is it, what is that thing? 10:47.928 --> 10:52.290 [SPEAKER_01]: And so just like last time, we have to highlight appetites not bad. 10:52.370 --> 10:53.031 [SPEAKER_01]: It's so good. 10:53.071 --> 10:53.331 [SPEAKER_01]: Right. 10:53.431 --> 10:54.411 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, God made it. 10:54.551 --> 10:55.312 [SPEAKER_01]: God made desire. 10:55.352 --> 10:56.072 [SPEAKER_01]: Just like we talked about. 10:56.092 --> 10:56.652 [SPEAKER_01]: He made pleasure. 10:56.672 --> 10:57.293 [SPEAKER_01]: He made bodies. 10:57.313 --> 10:58.173 [SPEAKER_01]: He made beasting. 10:58.573 --> 10:58.853 [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm. 10:58.893 --> 10:59.453 [SPEAKER_01]: Talk about that. 10:59.594 --> 11:00.294 [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm. 11:00.934 --> 11:06.477 [SPEAKER_01]: It's the problem with gladness when appetite is when 11:09.998 --> 11:21.260 [SPEAKER_01]: And why I think this goes right into the seven deadly sins or why it's in that category is because, again, this is sort of destructive, and this is something that we see all over the place. 11:21.780 --> 11:22.460 [SPEAKER_01]: I see many men. 11:22.480 --> 11:34.763 [SPEAKER_01]: I have countless stories of men in my own life and people I know well that I've actually had careers destroyed because of gluttony and not gluttony of appetite towards food, but gluttony of 11:36.323 --> 11:48.453 [SPEAKER_01]: Shopping or different things that would like actually really just for the life and so this is a sneaky one And I think that that will do ourselves some real good to be honest and name where does it show up in our life? 11:48.613 --> 11:50.255 [SPEAKER_01]: Is this just where is it with food? 11:51.976 --> 11:54.278 [SPEAKER_01]: So yes, that's the that's the base 11:55.757 --> 12:02.140 [SPEAKER_00]: So kind of like with lust, we did a short theology of sex and why sex is really good. 12:03.421 --> 12:14.187 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's also important to look at food and drink and briefly name why the Bible considers food and drink so good. 12:14.887 --> 12:20.390 [SPEAKER_00]: And what we talk about when we talk about gluttony is the desire gone wrong or the over desire for and inherently good thing. 12:21.491 --> 12:36.906 [SPEAKER_00]: Because Christianity is a very materialistic religion in a, you know, I said that with a little bit of nuance, I hope, and that there are many other worldviews where the more spiritual you get, the more disconnected from the world you're supposed to be. 12:43.364 --> 12:55.451 [SPEAKER_00]: almost every approach to spirituality besides Christianity is a little bit like this, but Christianity has a God made the material world on purpose CS Lewis has a delightful way of putting it because don't try to be more spiritual than God. 12:55.951 --> 12:56.672 [SPEAKER_00]: He made stuff. 12:56.732 --> 12:57.232 [SPEAKER_00]: He loves it. 12:57.252 --> 12:57.872 [SPEAKER_00]: He needs your body. 12:57.892 --> 12:58.372 [SPEAKER_00]: He loves it. 12:58.873 --> 12:59.993 [SPEAKER_00]: And this is really true with food. 13:00.113 --> 13:04.576 [SPEAKER_00]: So I would just, you know, briefly direct everybody's attention to Genesis 2 13:06.577 --> 13:09.979 [SPEAKER_00]: particularly Genesis 2-7. 13:10.059 --> 13:10.820 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry, 9. 13:11.400 --> 13:17.864 [SPEAKER_00]: The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground, trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. 13:17.884 --> 13:22.827 [SPEAKER_00]: There's so much more you could talk about in the Bible about food, but there's not less than this. 13:23.067 --> 13:27.910 [SPEAKER_00]: This passage sets out two super important categories for food. 13:29.011 --> 13:32.293 [SPEAKER_00]: That is that we were made pre-fall. 13:33.013 --> 13:34.735 [SPEAKER_00]: to need to eat food. 13:34.795 --> 13:37.578 [SPEAKER_00]: God made trees in the garden that were good for food. 13:38.178 --> 13:44.924 [SPEAKER_00]: So the necessity of us eating in order to survive is a featuring out of flaw. 13:45.505 --> 13:47.447 [SPEAKER_00]: And I would sum this up in the world dependence. 13:48.207 --> 13:52.411 [SPEAKER_00]: Even in Eden, we were made to be dependent on food and drink. 13:52.772 --> 13:55.974 [SPEAKER_00]: As in you have to have it to live. 13:56.755 --> 14:02.402 [SPEAKER_00]: So that necessity for something outside you in order for you to survive is not a flaw. 14:02.462 --> 14:03.683 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a feature kind of like sex. 14:03.804 --> 14:07.748 [SPEAKER_00]: You were made actually to be unified with God and with your spouse. 14:08.970 --> 14:11.753 [SPEAKER_00]: So dependence, let's just see how to wrestle with that. 14:11.773 --> 14:13.215 [SPEAKER_00]: Why were we made dependent, but we are. 14:13.255 --> 14:13.635 [SPEAKER_00]: It's good. 14:14.596 --> 14:19.840 [SPEAKER_00]: And then delight, conveniently, these both start with the dependent delight, dependence and delight. 14:21.281 --> 14:24.383 [SPEAKER_00]: God made trees in the garden that were pleasing to the eye. 14:24.403 --> 14:31.308 [SPEAKER_00]: I think this is so cool in that the same thing that feeds us the nature of the earth. 14:31.828 --> 14:34.950 [SPEAKER_00]: is also just wonderful to look at like this is why we want to take pictures of our food. 14:34.970 --> 14:36.691 [SPEAKER_00]: This is why we like to arrange our food. 14:37.031 --> 14:42.415 [SPEAKER_00]: This is why when we throw a feast, we want to kind of do it in a beautiful way, not just a functional way. 14:42.815 --> 14:44.176 [SPEAKER_00]: We are meant to delight and food. 14:44.476 --> 14:51.221 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think once you anchor the biblical perspective on food independence and delight, you can see and better 14:55.183 --> 15:02.352 [SPEAKER_00]: and that is instead of eating in a dependent matter, like just what we need and being grateful to God for giving us what we need. 15:03.213 --> 15:09.741 [SPEAKER_00]: We eat with excess, excess, like we're just so much more than we need. 15:11.383 --> 15:21.272 [SPEAKER_00]: We worry, you know, it's always, you know, we're starving ourselves, trying to get our bodies to look like a certain way or we're eating way more and regretting it. 15:21.352 --> 15:31.141 [SPEAKER_00]: And this, as opposed to just eating a moderate amount what we need in order to be dependent, we go towards this excess which of course creates shame. 15:32.082 --> 15:36.844 [SPEAKER_00]: and so we are made for dependence and delight and yet we're stuck in a world of excess and shame. 15:37.565 --> 15:40.566 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's just, let's say it's in version of food. 15:40.986 --> 15:47.249 [SPEAKER_00]: Food is supposed to give us a great sense of need for God, and a great sense of delight in God's creation. 15:48.030 --> 15:54.493 [SPEAKER_00]: But instead, gluttony, our fallen nature has made it an excess relationship and a shameful relationship. 15:55.453 --> 15:59.399 [SPEAKER_00]: and I just want to say that impacts you more than you think. 15:59.439 --> 16:02.143 [SPEAKER_00]: I think some of you are like, yeah, this is a huge deal for me. 16:03.685 --> 16:11.116 [SPEAKER_00]: Most of you, I'm guessing probably don't realize how much your ordinary life is characterized by seeking out. 16:12.878 --> 16:32.049 [SPEAKER_00]: a high dopamine hit from eating or drinking on the daily and then you're going into regret or shame or hang over or I'm yelling at my kids because I eat too much the night before and I don't even realize that yet or I'm mad at my spouse because I'm actually guilty about something I ate or like why am I doing this? 16:32.449 --> 16:35.751 [SPEAKER_00]: It's actually causing so much emotional disruption in your life and you probably don't know it yet. 16:36.751 --> 16:47.318 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's causing shame spirals and you don't know about this is why writing your relationship to food and drink is one of the most spiritual things that you can do it's not just a health thing It's not just a weight thing. 16:47.378 --> 16:48.399 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not just a body image thing. 16:48.439 --> 16:51.001 [SPEAKER_00]: It actually is all that but before that it's a heart thing. 16:51.401 --> 16:53.502 [SPEAKER_00]: It's about getting your relationship to God's creation right. 17:05.480 --> 17:06.721 [SPEAKER_01]: like we have to eat. 17:07.001 --> 17:07.581 [SPEAKER_01]: You have to drink. 17:07.861 --> 17:10.022 [SPEAKER_01]: This is what makes eating disorder so tricky. 17:11.483 --> 17:18.267 [SPEAKER_01]: Because you think about eating disorders and you realize you still have to eat to live. 17:18.587 --> 17:26.491 [SPEAKER_01]: And when you have a complicated relationship with food and I think an eating disorder as far as it's technically or clinically categorized, 17:27.714 --> 17:44.510 [SPEAKER_01]: is one extreme but even that can have a version it's really interesting I'm obviously no special here at whatsoever but it's just interesting to see how we need food and how we all can run to food or starve ourselves from food. 17:45.731 --> 17:47.332 [SPEAKER_01]: depending upon what the pain is. 17:47.972 --> 17:54.255 [SPEAKER_01]: And in your pain is really what we want to highlight, meaning what is the thing behind the thing? 17:54.275 --> 17:57.716 [SPEAKER_01]: What are you trying to actually numb from? 17:58.456 --> 17:59.877 [SPEAKER_01]: What are you escaping from? 18:00.597 --> 18:02.598 [SPEAKER_01]: And what is the deeper thing? 18:02.678 --> 18:04.179 [SPEAKER_01]: Because we all have that stuff. 18:04.199 --> 18:07.060 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's first of all, normal, let me just say it's normal to have these things. 18:07.780 --> 18:14.365 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I mean, I know people that, you know, that it can depend if it's for someone's to back or it's nicotine. 18:14.405 --> 18:15.686 [SPEAKER_01]: No, I don't mean to back go negatively. 18:15.706 --> 18:21.270 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, like, it can be like, I have eight zins or nine, ten zins a day. 18:21.350 --> 18:25.793 [SPEAKER_01]: Like I cannot get through a day without something else getting me through it. 18:25.893 --> 18:27.814 [SPEAKER_00]: Like at that point, you got to go, what's happening? 18:27.834 --> 18:28.635 [SPEAKER_00]: You don't know what I mean? 18:28.795 --> 18:30.776 [SPEAKER_00]: And actually, I think this is really good. 18:30.957 --> 18:32.718 [SPEAKER_00]: So a point of clarification for everyone listening. 18:33.418 --> 18:42.725 [SPEAKER_00]: I put substance abuse, whether it be like tobacco or drug use, that's in the category of gluttony. 18:43.206 --> 18:59.478 [SPEAKER_00]: When you're coping with an emotional problem by consuming something from heroin to hamburgers to cigars, alcohol, to regulate your emotions physically because you can't do it at a heart level. 18:59.538 --> 19:01.079 [SPEAKER_00]: That's what we're talking about when we have a glass. 19:03.791 --> 19:05.513 [SPEAKER_00]: Let me lay out our two categories here. 19:05.633 --> 19:07.294 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and then let's jump into it. 19:07.314 --> 19:14.701 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think what Brook and I want you all to take seriously is going to be two sides of the same coin. 19:15.582 --> 19:21.648 [SPEAKER_00]: Take your avoidant consumption more seriously than you think you need to. 19:22.048 --> 19:23.309 [SPEAKER_00]: So some of you are. 19:25.704 --> 19:27.586 [SPEAKER_00]: totally within normal healthy bounds. 19:28.807 --> 19:32.309 [SPEAKER_00]: But you're using food and drink to cope with an emotional problem. 19:32.329 --> 19:34.231 [SPEAKER_00]: And you need to take it actually more seriously than you need to. 19:34.251 --> 19:35.052 [SPEAKER_00]: So we're going to get into that. 19:35.072 --> 19:39.695 [SPEAKER_00]: And then also, we want you to take gratitude more seriously than you think you need to. 19:39.755 --> 19:47.361 [SPEAKER_00]: Some of you need to run to food and enjoy it more because you're not taking gratitude seriously enough. 19:47.742 --> 19:49.603 [SPEAKER_00]: So these are two sides of the same coin. 19:49.623 --> 19:51.024 [SPEAKER_00]: You want to kick us up on that? 19:54.433 --> 19:54.914 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I do. 19:55.094 --> 20:00.960 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just thinking when we when we can soon to change our internal state, that's what we're trying to highlight. 20:01.040 --> 20:10.311 [SPEAKER_01]: So so you're saying I call it a void in consumption, which I like, but I'm just using different languages explain the same thing so we can really drive the point. 20:10.871 --> 20:18.013 [SPEAKER_01]: that it could be something that nobody even really would show up on their radar, but you know what's going on. 20:18.433 --> 20:19.573 [SPEAKER_01]: So we're talking about that. 20:19.613 --> 20:20.853 [SPEAKER_01]: We're talking about the heart level. 20:21.373 --> 20:23.934 [SPEAKER_01]: Obviously there's extreme examples of when it's like really big. 20:23.974 --> 20:26.834 [SPEAKER_01]: But if you're like, and let me just give you some examples. 20:26.874 --> 20:34.256 [SPEAKER_01]: If you're anxious and you start to consume, whatever your thing is, if you are sat and you start to consume, if you're lonely, you're bored and you start to consume. 20:34.696 --> 20:35.696 [SPEAKER_01]: Some of you run to 20:39.937 --> 20:41.177 [SPEAKER_01]: I feel inadequate and I consume. 20:41.217 --> 20:50.560 [SPEAKER_01]: So the real point is for you to really begin to just be honest, like we've talked about, be honest with yourself and see where this is a thing because it shows up in all of our lives. 20:50.700 --> 21:00.243 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I would be lying to you if I was like, there's not, there's totally moments when I'm like, I don't need food, but that sounds comforting or feels comforting. 21:00.643 --> 21:01.383 [SPEAKER_01]: When I grew up, I 21:02.273 --> 21:06.718 [SPEAKER_01]: It was interesting, my parents had extreme amounts of trauma growing up. 21:07.319 --> 21:09.681 [SPEAKER_01]: And so comfort food is such a real thing. 21:10.182 --> 21:11.423 [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't think there's just a sudden thing. 21:11.523 --> 21:13.546 [SPEAKER_01]: Actually, think it's those who suffer from deep trauma thing. 21:13.566 --> 21:14.527 [SPEAKER_01]: If I'm being honest, yeah. 21:14.967 --> 21:22.916 [SPEAKER_01]: And so growing up interestingly enough, like, I don't know if I can't even say, I don't know if my parents would even track this as on their radar. 21:23.657 --> 21:25.620 [SPEAKER_01]: But looking back, I was like, oh my gosh, this all makes sense. 21:25.640 --> 21:29.845 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm going to just give you a quick, for instance, food was not about nutrition in my home. 21:29.966 --> 21:31.708 [SPEAKER_01]: It was about how it made you feel. 21:32.889 --> 21:33.290 [SPEAKER_01]: Every meal. 21:33.510 --> 21:40.700 [SPEAKER_01]: And let me just tell you, as an example, one of the staple breakfasts that we would have in one of the reasons I was in obese kid, that's a fun story, by the way. 21:41.380 --> 21:42.221 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think I knew that. 21:42.902 --> 21:43.723 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, obese kid. 21:44.023 --> 21:45.344 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, yeah, it was pretty big. 21:45.404 --> 21:46.425 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, pretty big dude. 21:46.805 --> 21:47.326 [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know that. 21:47.806 --> 21:48.927 [SPEAKER_00]: I've got some great photos. 21:48.967 --> 21:49.147 [SPEAKER_00]: Wait. 21:49.167 --> 21:52.150 [SPEAKER_00]: So does that affect you now? 21:52.210 --> 21:55.553 [SPEAKER_01]: Like do you know, I mean, obese might be a strong word. 21:56.133 --> 22:03.139 [SPEAKER_01]: I was very I was I was definitely in the cat like doctors like air overweight like in that category when I was probably up to like 12 or 13. 22:03.880 --> 22:13.124 [SPEAKER_01]: and then when I was 13, I started working out a lot and or 14, I started working out a lot testosterone working out and then changing a mild amount of what I was eating was very effective. 22:14.245 --> 22:16.626 [SPEAKER_01]: But anyway, that's not the point, that's not the main point. 22:16.646 --> 22:22.829 [SPEAKER_01]: I was just to say like, I know this world again, but like a stable breakfast was, you know, you maybe have oatmeal which is great. 22:23.269 --> 22:26.810 [SPEAKER_01]: We would have oatmeal with brown sugar and vanilla ice cream in it. 22:27.371 --> 22:28.071 [SPEAKER_01]: Ice cream in the morning? 22:28.451 --> 22:28.811 [SPEAKER_01]: Pro. 22:29.171 --> 22:31.072 [SPEAKER_01]: And this is a great dessert. 22:31.232 --> 22:32.693 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a really hard way to start the day. 22:32.993 --> 22:35.354 [SPEAKER_00]: Lord, I always joke that Americans do desert for breakfast. 22:35.374 --> 22:35.794 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, they do. 22:35.834 --> 22:37.414 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, this is a donut. 22:37.454 --> 22:38.435 [SPEAKER_01]: This is, it's a joke. 22:38.475 --> 22:39.735 [SPEAKER_01]: And we, there's no shade on that. 22:39.755 --> 22:41.536 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just saying that is more of a dessert category. 22:42.156 --> 22:44.937 [SPEAKER_01]: But that would be like, you know, you have that. 22:44.957 --> 22:49.038 [SPEAKER_01]: You start the day with that and chase it with two slices of one to bread with butter on it. 22:49.058 --> 22:53.760 [SPEAKER_01]: You're like hard start of a day, fall that up with mac and cheese for lunch and spaghetti for dinner. 22:53.900 --> 22:54.540 [SPEAKER_01]: You are, 22:55.480 --> 23:00.845 [SPEAKER_01]: feeling great in your emotions and dying internally. 23:00.925 --> 23:13.396 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm pointing this out that I have just a lot of experience with that because if food was just about feeling more than it was, I mean, it's about taste, but I think the nutrition side was never talked about. 23:13.596 --> 23:17.940 [SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't about nutritional value or what does this help you reach your greater goal? 23:18.321 --> 23:20.002 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not throwing any shade on my family for that. 23:20.022 --> 23:21.784 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just saying that was my environment. 23:22.304 --> 23:39.074 [SPEAKER_01]: So with food especially and with this whole idea, when you are using food to that level of any sort, or kind, or drink, or to numb it out, you're doing yourself and your future self a huge disservice, and you never deal with the real thing. 23:39.114 --> 23:43.096 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think I'm going to say this very clearly, but I really believe it. 23:43.996 --> 23:52.401 [SPEAKER_01]: I think there are so many people that stay spiritually and emotionally stuck because they're not willing to actually face what food is doing to them. 23:52.521 --> 23:52.741 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. 23:52.761 --> 23:54.482 [SPEAKER_00]: All right. 23:54.642 --> 23:57.204 [SPEAKER_00]: I want to chime in on a couple aspects of the story. 23:57.704 --> 24:06.849 [SPEAKER_00]: One probably a ton of people are like you in that they grew up eating things not realizing how emotional that was. 24:08.978 --> 24:23.199 [SPEAKER_00]: One of the things I learned researching the body to teach the soul and was actually so helpful to me is how significant that you're eating habits, or sorry, how related you're eating habits are to your dopamine levels. 24:24.000 --> 24:34.025 [SPEAKER_00]: and why the American diet of foods that are super high in fat, sugar, or salt are emotionally capturing to you. 24:34.105 --> 24:36.226 [SPEAKER_00]: And you don't, you might not even know it. 24:36.286 --> 24:39.688 [SPEAKER_00]: You might just think, I eat this week's is all I could afford is how I grew up or whatever, cheap. 24:40.108 --> 24:51.594 [SPEAKER_00]: The problem with eating normally in America is that our foods are so processed in fat, sugar, and salt levels that we have super high dopamine swings 24:55.217 --> 24:55.778 [SPEAKER_00]: short term. 24:56.338 --> 25:05.189 [SPEAKER_00]: And then what your brain does, and this is what I learned and I did not know this, is your brain relates to dopamine and a seesaw mechanism. 25:05.229 --> 25:08.854 [SPEAKER_00]: So once it spikes, your brain wants homeostasis. 25:08.914 --> 25:10.115 [SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't want high levels. 25:10.235 --> 25:11.837 [SPEAKER_00]: It wants it to come back to normal. 25:12.498 --> 25:23.424 [SPEAKER_00]: So it jumps on the other side of the seesaw and actually creates perceived pain or discomfort, which we often interpret as a shame or regret or just annoyance. 25:23.844 --> 25:32.409 [SPEAKER_00]: And this is if you put it in regular terms, you kept eating potato chips and then the half the bag is done and suddenly your brain is gross. 25:32.589 --> 25:37.272 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, like, you know, the dope ones will too high as I could jump on the other end of the seesaw. 25:37.832 --> 25:44.153 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's where you see actually a biological inverse reflection of the theological purpose of food. 25:44.193 --> 25:47.154 [SPEAKER_00]: We were meant to eat dependently and experience delight from it. 25:47.594 --> 25:50.575 [SPEAKER_00]: And now we're eating excessively and experiencing shame from it. 25:51.095 --> 25:54.655 [SPEAKER_00]: And we might not even have meant to do that. 25:54.715 --> 25:58.476 [SPEAKER_00]: Like you didn't, maybe you didn't even know how bad your diet was growing up as a kid. 25:58.496 --> 26:00.096 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's just that's a fallen world. 26:01.157 --> 26:07.398 [SPEAKER_00]: But if you are emotionally tied to food, it is probably because 26:09.150 --> 26:11.613 [SPEAKER_00]: of this unhealthy, typical American diet. 26:11.633 --> 26:23.930 [SPEAKER_00]: So I just extend compassion to people in our modern moment because it is so hard to eat and spiritually healthy manner because our foods are so physically unhealthy. 26:24.390 --> 26:25.472 [SPEAKER_00]: And those are just not separate. 26:25.652 --> 26:32.695 [SPEAKER_00]: Physically unhealthy foods create spiritually unhealthy dopamine cycles and do not try to separate them. 26:32.775 --> 26:35.197 [SPEAKER_00]: You are an embodied physical soul. 26:35.717 --> 26:39.259 [SPEAKER_00]: So you can't be like, well, this is just what I eat by spiritual life. 26:39.319 --> 26:45.822 [SPEAKER_00]: And no, it really is related, which is why you get people, I'm just making a huge generalization. 26:45.862 --> 26:47.242 [SPEAKER_00]: But I know it's in people's heads. 26:47.883 --> 26:48.483 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm going to say it. 26:48.843 --> 27:04.954 [SPEAKER_00]: You get people who are like, why do you know this southern Baptist preacher cares so much about alcohol and like don't touch tobacco and alcohol and yet he's clearly obese and has like no governor when it comes to Pepsi and potato chips and the fact is like 27:05.494 --> 27:05.894 [SPEAKER_00]: You're right. 27:06.775 --> 27:07.216 [SPEAKER_00]: You're right. 27:07.316 --> 27:09.037 [SPEAKER_00]: It is that is a blind spot. 27:09.558 --> 27:14.462 [SPEAKER_00]: And we should take it way more seriously because some of us are avoiding the typical vices. 27:15.363 --> 27:21.268 [SPEAKER_00]: And we feel fine about our evening life because we're not, you know, drinking smoking or doing drugs. 27:22.582 --> 27:24.142 [SPEAKER_00]: But you're eating yourself into oblivion. 27:24.242 --> 27:34.725 [SPEAKER_00]: And even if you're not overweight, your emotional cycles are experiencing extraordinary unhealthy because you're numbing your pain through ice cream. 27:35.725 --> 27:39.566 [SPEAKER_00]: You're avoiding conversations that you should have by just having a beer instead. 27:40.526 --> 27:46.487 [SPEAKER_00]: You are closing off recovery from something by just saying, I'll just keep eating sugar. 27:47.445 --> 28:12.930 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what you're hiding like listen or like this is such a complex area of life, but the point is to take your eating patterns really seriously, because when you are going to excess patterns, this is gluttony, this is a classic sin, but more importantly, you're covering up something else, like there's something else underneath the thing that you're running from and you'll never find it until you put a governor on your eating and saying, I've got to stop. 28:16.004 --> 28:17.665 [SPEAKER_01]: Very well, I mean, truly well said. 28:17.885 --> 28:27.369 [SPEAKER_01]: Very well said, gluttony's interesting because if we think about what it promises, similar to past episodes, like, what is the promise? 28:27.770 --> 28:29.110 [SPEAKER_01]: It promises comfort again. 28:29.310 --> 28:30.491 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, promises comfort. 28:30.911 --> 28:33.792 [SPEAKER_01]: But it keeps you stuck in comfort, and it keeps you, 28:35.333 --> 28:39.556 [SPEAKER_01]: you feel like too overwhelmed to ever touch that one. 28:39.716 --> 28:46.921 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I'll try to exercise, I'll try to order my schedule, I'll try to sleep more, I'm not touching food. 28:47.162 --> 28:49.303 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, food is, it becomes an idol. 28:49.423 --> 28:56.048 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, food becomes an idol that people will adjust all sorts of things. 28:56.068 --> 28:57.429 [SPEAKER_01]: They will not adjust food. 28:57.849 --> 29:00.451 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, I don't know if you experienced this, but I see it. 29:00.912 --> 29:03.534 [SPEAKER_01]: I experienced this a lot, not only personally, but I think in general, 29:04.374 --> 29:08.236 [SPEAKER_01]: I will be really quick to adjust other things before I'll adjust food. 29:09.777 --> 29:13.098 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you know, I got nothing to say, you know, yeah, it is really hard. 29:13.339 --> 29:13.939 [SPEAKER_00]: It's really hard. 29:14.059 --> 29:28.166 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I'm saying that not to even, it's just point out that it is difficult and it's sneaky and it's sticky and gluttony is one of those ones that it's, there's something deeper that causes inviting you into and it's food bad. 29:28.206 --> 29:28.966 [SPEAKER_01]: No, it's wonderful. 29:35.327 --> 29:39.351 [SPEAKER_01]: malaise because you're, you're not, you know, you're eating in a certain way. 29:40.152 --> 29:42.014 [SPEAKER_01]: It's, it's absolutely destructive. 29:42.034 --> 29:45.318 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think this is where I, I'd love to bring up the topic. 29:46.539 --> 29:50.583 [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know, I know this might sound current controversial controversial, but I don't think it is. 29:51.104 --> 29:54.007 [SPEAKER_01]: Is the idea of when we actually. 29:55.712 --> 30:07.499 [SPEAKER_01]: talk about lesser vices to keep us from bigger vices and this is something that we've we've actually been talking about and I'm surprised we've gotten as this far in the season without bringing this up. 30:08.159 --> 30:13.803 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, because there's something here now I want to be really, really crystal clear. 30:14.723 --> 30:36.620 [SPEAKER_01]: Justin and I are not saying that you should do anything that is sinful, anything stupid, this is not like, give this episode your wife to say, they said the stuff like, when I say anything's fine, but there's a concept that is really important here that is important for your, I think it's, it's reality as it really works versus what we assume in our idealism. 30:37.501 --> 30:45.724 [SPEAKER_01]: I think there's lesser vices that are not as destructive or harmful, maybe very mildly so that keep us from larger ones. 30:45.764 --> 30:45.944 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 30:47.085 --> 30:47.845 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's talk about that. 30:47.905 --> 30:48.285 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. 30:48.325 --> 30:49.866 [SPEAKER_01]: So I know you have some thoughts on this. 30:49.906 --> 30:50.586 [SPEAKER_00]: I have thoughts on it. 30:50.686 --> 30:55.988 [SPEAKER_00]: I actually, I want to tip my hat to one of my favorite editors that I've ever had, Paul Passer. 30:56.048 --> 30:57.229 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, you're going to listen to this. 30:57.349 --> 30:57.909 [SPEAKER_00]: I love you, bro. 30:59.190 --> 31:00.270 [SPEAKER_00]: Paul is a really wise guy. 31:00.410 --> 31:01.070 [SPEAKER_00]: Great poet. 31:01.471 --> 31:01.631 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 31:01.651 --> 31:03.471 [SPEAKER_00]: It's definitely struggling with a CDA, 31:05.518 --> 31:12.481 [SPEAKER_00]: He's our age, and lives outside Portland, Oregon, and the Columbia River Gorge. 31:12.501 --> 31:13.141 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, anyway. 31:13.281 --> 31:13.981 [SPEAKER_00]: Does he still live there? 31:14.001 --> 31:16.762 [SPEAKER_00]: Paul wants, yeah, give me some of it. 31:16.782 --> 31:17.983 [SPEAKER_00]: Paul wants to share his address. 31:18.583 --> 31:19.784 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm a, no, no. 31:20.964 --> 31:24.746 [SPEAKER_00]: I said this up a big big build up to just a simple phrase. 31:24.826 --> 31:26.927 [SPEAKER_00]: Paul once said and I loved it. 31:27.007 --> 31:33.970 [SPEAKER_00]: He goes, I'm of the perhaps incorrect opinion that smaller vices keep a man from larger ones. 31:34.530 --> 31:38.012 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm fairly certain he said it while brandishing a corn cob pipe. 31:38.992 --> 31:45.615 [SPEAKER_00]: Because you know, in like his point was obviously some people would look at this corn cob pipe and be like, you know, you're addicted to tobacco. 31:46.215 --> 31:46.435 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 31:46.815 --> 31:49.156 [SPEAKER_00]: And here's what I think he means. 31:49.196 --> 31:52.118 [SPEAKER_00]: And here's why I think the statement is so provocative and I kind of like it. 31:54.619 --> 32:04.063 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm guessing what Paul means by smaller vices is running with gratitude towards the small pleasures that God gives. 32:06.844 --> 32:07.604 [SPEAKER_00]: With moderation. 32:07.984 --> 32:08.204 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 32:08.625 --> 32:13.927 [SPEAKER_00]: Small vices quote unquote as in like when you have a beer on Friday 32:14.727 --> 32:26.672 [SPEAKER_00]: like really looking forward to it and drinking with great gratitude, or when you have your cigar on Saturday, really looking forward to it and enjoying it with great gratitude, or when you wake up to your morning coffee. 32:28.605 --> 32:47.950 [SPEAKER_00]: really enjoying it with great gratitude even though we know caffeine is addictive and there's like a point that all of the things that I just listed are things that some people would consider vice in fact I think some some Christians and most Mormons would look at caffeine, nicotine or alcohol and be like actually that's always wrong. 32:48.211 --> 32:49.471 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah I definitely don't agree with that. 32:50.171 --> 33:04.908 [SPEAKER_00]: But I think what I mean when I say smaller vices in the context of Paul's quote is running with gratitude towards pleasures God has created and you don't have to look hard in the Bible to see that these things are given for our enjoyment, our delight, right? 33:05.148 --> 33:07.431 [SPEAKER_00]: Just like that first Genesis 2-9 in the garden. 33:08.331 --> 33:26.559 [SPEAKER_00]: But that it's that gratitude and enjoyment of these smaller quote unquote vices that prevents you from becoming a man who's like, well, I'm super strict in my diet, I always work out, I would never eat that, I'm looking at porn all the time. 33:27.800 --> 33:36.925 [SPEAKER_00]: because you've created a life of such pressure like you have to be perfect in your body image and your workout and all this stuff and your your body honestly needs release. 33:37.045 --> 33:38.886 [SPEAKER_00]: It's looking for delight somewhere. 33:39.227 --> 33:43.169 [SPEAKER_00]: You've closed off all other paths to delight and gratitude. 33:43.629 --> 33:44.670 [SPEAKER_00]: So you have a porn addiction. 33:45.030 --> 33:45.250 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 33:45.310 --> 33:46.472 [SPEAKER_00]: And I see this all the time. 33:46.632 --> 33:48.494 [SPEAKER_00]: Like guys who are super in shape. 33:48.754 --> 33:48.934 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 33:49.154 --> 33:50.976 [SPEAKER_00]: Care a ton about their body and the gym. 33:51.377 --> 33:55.501 [SPEAKER_00]: And then have some other place in their life like the whack-a-mole where the vice is cropping up. 33:55.581 --> 33:55.841 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 33:56.102 --> 34:00.066 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I actually say with some, uh, full integrity and some seriousness, 34:01.387 --> 34:03.247 [SPEAKER_00]: Smaller vices prevent a man from larger one. 34:03.307 --> 34:09.090 [SPEAKER_00]: And what I mean by that is find the appropriate places in life to run with gratitude and moderation towards the gift of God. 34:09.210 --> 34:11.231 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Christians would historically just call this feasting. 34:11.311 --> 34:11.791 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, okay. 34:11.931 --> 34:12.312 [SPEAKER_00]: There we go. 34:12.832 --> 34:23.257 [SPEAKER_00]: Of course and moderation and of course you're only things that are right like you're not going to do porn and moderation like you're not going to do opiates and moderates, but you might be beer and moderation, you know, it can be moderate. 34:24.137 --> 34:30.622 [SPEAKER_00]: those kinds of things that gratitude over God's creation is going to prevent you from larger vices that destroy you. 34:30.803 --> 34:31.103 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. 34:31.443 --> 34:31.823 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you agree? 34:32.144 --> 34:34.506 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, because this is a little contrary to hyper agree. 34:34.586 --> 34:36.067 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I mean, I think it's controversial. 34:36.887 --> 34:47.796 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's controversial to those who either have a particular background or, I mean, if you if you just take a second to to understand life, look how life actually works, look in the scriptures. 34:48.357 --> 34:51.519 [SPEAKER_01]: I think we're on some pretty steady footing to recognize like, 34:52.878 --> 34:54.339 [SPEAKER_01]: this is not new to us. 34:54.779 --> 34:56.020 [SPEAKER_01]: What we're talking about isn't new to us. 34:57.361 --> 35:02.245 [SPEAKER_01]: And I would agree because I think there's a line here where legalism is not the point. 35:02.265 --> 35:10.311 [SPEAKER_01]: Like the mindset that we're talking, even I would like, would you agree with touch of those who would land in the arenas of what we would consider legalists? 35:10.531 --> 35:17.956 [SPEAKER_01]: There was black and white thinking of things that are like, we want to name so many things that are moral, that are not moral. 35:19.037 --> 35:34.784 [SPEAKER_01]: We feel better moralizing everything, but I learned until I was, I think, I can't remember the journey where I was with my own parenting journey, where I'm a therapist point out to me, he's like, you, so do you understand you moralize everything right and wrong? 35:34.804 --> 35:39.766 [SPEAKER_01]: You lack her white, obedience, respect, these things, like, somethings are just like neutral. 35:41.007 --> 35:45.069 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, you know, I didn't realize the gift you was giving me in that moment, but that's the gift of like, 35:45.709 --> 35:50.554 [SPEAKER_01]: understanding reality as it truly is, are certain things that are just not moral. 35:50.954 --> 35:58.101 [SPEAKER_01]: Here's the obvious ones, we don't even need to waste our time, you're smart, if you're listening to the hope that you're smart enough to know the difference between the obvious ones and the not. 35:58.521 --> 36:09.332 [SPEAKER_01]: But there's certain things that we want to moralize, we'd love to moralize cigars, we'd love to moralize these maybe alcohol or whatever, and there's a part of it that just like anything, it will destroy. 36:09.972 --> 36:12.754 [SPEAKER_01]: It will absolutely destroy if it's not putting its place. 36:13.215 --> 36:17.659 [SPEAKER_01]: So I think, again, the smaller vise, and everyone has to define that. 36:18.359 --> 36:23.583 [SPEAKER_01]: The vise that we're talking about, though, is not, like you had clarified overt sin. 36:23.603 --> 36:26.005 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not like, well, I just, I just watched porn once a month. 36:26.987 --> 36:28.748 [SPEAKER_01]: And it keeps me from watching it all the time. 36:28.808 --> 36:30.188 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, that's not what we're talking about. 36:30.208 --> 36:30.829 [SPEAKER_01]: We're not talking about. 36:30.849 --> 36:33.550 [SPEAKER_01]: I only slept with one woman who wasn't my wife last week. 36:34.350 --> 36:34.851 [SPEAKER_01]: You can't do it. 36:34.871 --> 36:35.531 [SPEAKER_01]: You can't do it. 36:35.551 --> 36:36.651 [SPEAKER_01]: You can't do it. 36:36.671 --> 36:37.432 [SPEAKER_01]: That's what I'm saying. 36:37.472 --> 36:41.214 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm wanting to be overly clear, because I don't want anyone to hear this wrong. 36:42.294 --> 36:44.015 [SPEAKER_01]: But I also want you to hear the heart. 36:44.055 --> 36:51.578 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, there's certain things that will actually help you in your journey with the father that are not moral that may be your culture. 36:51.678 --> 36:53.259 [SPEAKER_01]: Or your upbringing has said is really moral. 36:53.299 --> 36:54.760 [SPEAKER_01]: And my encouragement is just to like, 36:55.440 --> 36:55.860 [SPEAKER_01]: Look at it. 36:55.960 --> 36:56.441 [SPEAKER_01]: What is it? 36:56.501 --> 36:57.201 [SPEAKER_01]: What is your thing? 36:57.281 --> 37:00.003 [SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, transparently, I enjoy cigars. 37:00.083 --> 37:00.263 [SPEAKER_01]: Right. 37:00.283 --> 37:00.783 [SPEAKER_01]: Really do. 37:00.884 --> 37:02.204 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm sharing that here. 37:02.745 --> 37:04.306 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not my wife knows about it. 37:04.526 --> 37:05.527 [SPEAKER_01]: My family knows about it. 37:05.747 --> 37:07.328 [SPEAKER_00]: My friends never had a hidden hidden. 37:07.468 --> 37:08.148 [SPEAKER_01]: Never hidden. 37:08.648 --> 37:14.292 [SPEAKER_00]: If I had a mobile that would tell you, if it's plenty of people have enough of you on it, so they could tell you if it's too much, would you? 37:14.452 --> 37:14.892 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, absolutely. 37:14.912 --> 37:15.713 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, absolutely. 37:15.773 --> 37:16.053 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 37:16.493 --> 37:17.494 [SPEAKER_00]: My kids know about it. 37:17.774 --> 37:20.156 [SPEAKER_01]: My kids would be like, dad, are you going on a cigar walk tonight? 37:20.176 --> 37:21.417 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, not to you guys. 37:21.457 --> 37:21.937 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to be home. 37:25.319 --> 37:29.240 [SPEAKER_01]: I probably agree with you on most of that stuff, but not for that reason, but yeah, but not for that one. 37:29.520 --> 37:32.701 [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, this is a, can I add a quick quote on that? 37:32.801 --> 37:35.702 [SPEAKER_00]: I actually think this one's really helpful too, and it's in the exact same category. 37:36.322 --> 37:40.683 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it was Mark Twain, who said, I don't trust a man in less I can see his vices. 37:41.003 --> 37:41.944 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah, I see his love. 37:41.964 --> 37:44.885 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure the limp or, but vices is, it's that idea. 37:45.425 --> 37:48.366 [SPEAKER_00]: Your vices are better in plain sight. 37:48.486 --> 37:49.126 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 37:49.306 --> 37:50.246 [SPEAKER_00]: We've tied it up again. 37:50.386 --> 37:53.247 [SPEAKER_00]: This is like, you have to do some interpreting for this quote. 37:53.787 --> 38:00.390 [SPEAKER_00]: By that, I mean, if they're in plain sight and nobody's calling this out, probably not actually advice. 38:00.430 --> 38:05.432 [SPEAKER_00]: It's probably a good, something that you're running to well and in moderation. 38:05.452 --> 38:11.335 [SPEAKER_00]: And for any listener who needs a little more work here, I would quickly define this like Aristotle's virtue. 38:12.716 --> 38:15.378 [SPEAKER_00]: Aristotle's perspective on virtue is I think really helpful here. 38:15.518 --> 38:17.260 [SPEAKER_00]: It's all things in moderation. 38:17.740 --> 38:19.541 [SPEAKER_00]: Generally, I think it's a biblical perspective. 38:20.122 --> 38:22.864 [SPEAKER_00]: If you're talking about something that can be done in moderation, okay? 38:22.904 --> 38:23.084 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 38:23.284 --> 38:25.206 [SPEAKER_00]: So for food and drink, this is going to be really helpful. 38:25.266 --> 38:31.351 [SPEAKER_00]: The reason I think it's okay to smoke a cigar, but I personally would say, I wouldn't do gummies. 38:31.931 --> 38:33.212 [SPEAKER_00]: I wouldn't do marijuana. 38:33.693 --> 38:37.776 [SPEAKER_00]: And the reason I draw those things as distinct is because 38:38.516 --> 38:41.438 [SPEAKER_00]: Some substances are able to be done moderately. 38:41.938 --> 38:45.480 [SPEAKER_00]: You can do it without becoming drunk or high. 38:45.780 --> 38:46.820 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 38:47.401 --> 38:57.446 [SPEAKER_00]: There are other substances that really can't, like cocaine is not really capable of being done in moderation because it's of its drastic effect on the body, right? 38:57.966 --> 39:06.568 [SPEAKER_00]: So if we're talking about something that can like alcohol or tobacco or food or dessert, sugar or fat, can be done in moderation, I think, oh, gift from God. 39:07.228 --> 39:13.910 [SPEAKER_00]: If you're talking about something that can't be done in moderation, I think perversion of creation, we probably shouldn't do this thing in that way. 39:13.950 --> 39:16.291 [SPEAKER_00]: Like we should be refining opiates in this way and injecting them. 39:17.531 --> 39:23.013 [SPEAKER_00]: And maybe that's for people, but I think like some people need lines and that's where I would draw the line. 39:23.253 --> 39:24.413 [SPEAKER_01]: And you do it in moderation. 39:24.733 --> 39:26.494 [SPEAKER_01]: that is such a good, that's a good point. 39:26.534 --> 39:29.835 [SPEAKER_01]: And to kind of, I know we're going to pivot in the second to just the practical stuff. 39:30.635 --> 39:42.040 [SPEAKER_01]: I think if we talk about if gluttony is the the vice, what is the virtue and the classic words temperance or self control. 39:42.720 --> 39:49.143 [SPEAKER_01]: And so that's just something to name, like you guys got to know, self control is properly ordered desires. 39:49.783 --> 39:53.224 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to say this because I say it a lot, but I think it's more helpful than anybody gives a credit. 39:53.804 --> 39:57.765 [SPEAKER_01]: Start praying that God would give you self-control and self-discipline. 39:57.925 --> 40:00.426 [SPEAKER_01]: He is so interested in answering that prayer in your life. 40:01.006 --> 40:02.146 [SPEAKER_01]: Start making it a prayer. 40:02.186 --> 40:06.607 [SPEAKER_01]: If you have a hard time with self-control and self-discipline, begin to ask God for it. 40:06.827 --> 40:08.007 [SPEAKER_01]: Because he wants to help you. 40:08.067 --> 40:10.248 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, it doesn't mean like tomorrow, you're going to be zapped. 40:10.288 --> 40:10.848 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe some of you. 40:11.148 --> 40:13.069 [SPEAKER_01]: But I do think you'll start to become aware. 40:13.709 --> 40:15.849 [SPEAKER_01]: And self-control is a fruit of the spirit. 40:18.750 --> 40:38.977 [SPEAKER_01]: like these are fruits of a spirit filled life and so how do you actually at this will you start to step into the arena of recognizing God is giving you governance over lots of things but starting with yourself and if you don't have control of yourself every evil and other desire will flow through 40:43.698 --> 40:46.201 [SPEAKER_01]: The other quote that comes to mind, can't remember who it was. 40:46.241 --> 40:51.669 [SPEAKER_01]: It's very popular one in the moment I say it, you might know the guy, but it's basically that phrase to sin bravely. 40:51.689 --> 40:54.332 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's a variation of Luther. 40:54.472 --> 40:54.713 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 40:55.213 --> 40:56.655 [SPEAKER_00]: But sin bravely. 40:56.675 --> 40:57.396 [SPEAKER_00]: Sin boldly. 40:57.536 --> 40:58.077 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, sin bravely. 40:58.097 --> 41:00.320 [SPEAKER_00]: And approach the throne of grace all the more boldly. 41:00.540 --> 41:09.391 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's actually a different quote that one I'm talking about is from similar idea, but sin bravely now you might say like what the heck's in bravely. 41:10.192 --> 41:14.417 [SPEAKER_01]: It means like if you're going to sin, you need to own your sin. 41:14.537 --> 41:19.142 [SPEAKER_01]: You need to be brave about the reality that this is going to harm you and other people. 41:19.222 --> 41:19.282 [SPEAKER_01]: And 41:19.983 --> 41:22.044 [SPEAKER_01]: Anyways, we don't even need to get lost on it. 41:22.084 --> 41:30.429 [SPEAKER_01]: It's more to say like that is that's kind of the idea here that you are aware of where this is showing up and you're honest and you're brave about owning where you're at. 41:30.549 --> 41:34.992 [SPEAKER_01]: And so for a lot of people, I think you need to begin to pray for that. 41:35.072 --> 41:40.275 [SPEAKER_01]: Because that's something I, even in my life, I'm not naturally self-control something I've had to learn 41:41.696 --> 41:47.142 [SPEAKER_01]: Some people are naturally really self-control, like my wife, incredibly, naturally self-control, like naturally self-disciplined. 41:47.202 --> 41:49.264 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah, like hyper-self-disciplined. 41:49.284 --> 41:49.744 [SPEAKER_01]: Good for her. 41:50.065 --> 42:01.496 [SPEAKER_01]: Painfully so, not me, not me either, but like what I'm pointing it out to say, there are everyone comes with a different set of like this might not be your biggest pain point. 42:02.137 --> 42:13.347 [SPEAKER_01]: I promise this season, if you keep listening, we'll find yours and we'll poke on it, but I think the point that I'm trying to make is like, if you don't have it, pray for it, and maybe we can just move through a couple of practicalities of how to help. 42:13.747 --> 42:17.210 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so what do your thoughts, or am I starting this part of you, I can't remember. 42:17.230 --> 42:18.031 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, knock you get off. 42:18.211 --> 42:24.037 [SPEAKER_00]: You can quickly, I think I will admittedly have, like, kind of a weird paradigm for this. 42:24.537 --> 42:26.559 [SPEAKER_01]: Always not, this time we were, we talked about it. 42:26.579 --> 42:27.600 [SPEAKER_01]: I think maybe it's not, maybe it's not. 42:27.640 --> 42:28.400 [SPEAKER_01]: I just want to experiment. 42:30.410 --> 42:33.951 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if this will fit everybody, but it's been very, very helpful for me. 42:34.191 --> 42:34.391 [SPEAKER_00]: Great. 42:34.831 --> 42:47.815 [SPEAKER_00]: So because we were made for dependence and delight, and we perverted them to excess and shame, fasting and feasting have just been extraordinarily helpful spiritual disciplines to me. 42:48.876 --> 42:50.576 [SPEAKER_00]: And now those are classic biblical disciplines. 42:50.676 --> 42:51.316 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 42:51.497 --> 42:52.137 [SPEAKER_00]: And just know, 42:59.679 --> 43:03.521 [SPEAKER_00]: as famous, if not more famous for feasting than he was for fasting, but he's famous for both. 43:04.041 --> 43:10.364 [SPEAKER_00]: And so not my idea of biblical idea here, fasting helps cultivate the dependence part. 43:10.524 --> 43:12.645 [SPEAKER_00]: Feasting helps cultivate the delight part. 43:13.485 --> 43:16.647 [SPEAKER_00]: But, and here's where my innovation maybe gets a little odd. 43:17.467 --> 43:22.408 [SPEAKER_00]: I think most days you're not actually fasting or feasting most days, you're doing what I would call ordinary fair. 43:22.968 --> 43:30.210 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm getting this from a wonderful spiritual writer, Robert Capeon, who was a physical priest in the 60s and 70s. 43:30.230 --> 43:31.310 [SPEAKER_01]: Capeop from last season. 43:31.330 --> 43:32.170 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if you remember this. 43:32.190 --> 43:32.890 [SPEAKER_01]: I love Capeop. 43:32.930 --> 43:42.432 [SPEAKER_00]: I probably mentioned them on every season, wrote supper of the lamb, but he has a concept of basically how to eat when you're not fasting and when you're not feasting. 43:42.472 --> 43:44.792 [SPEAKER_00]: And so those three categories are super helpful to me. 43:44.812 --> 43:45.793 [SPEAKER_00]: We don't have time to unpack them all, 43:48.154 --> 43:52.660 [SPEAKER_00]: There's always regular fasting in some way. 43:53.421 --> 43:59.729 [SPEAKER_00]: It might be like I'm fasting once a month, it might be in during length and I'm fasting once a week. 44:01.111 --> 44:04.235 [SPEAKER_00]: Or it might be like a longer fast because some urgent prayer need came up. 44:04.415 --> 44:05.536 [SPEAKER_00]: But it's just normal. 44:06.157 --> 44:11.400 [SPEAKER_00]: if not often like is normal for me to be fasting, I cannot tell you how helpful that's been to me over the last decade. 44:12.161 --> 44:19.946 [SPEAKER_00]: It's totally normal to be feasting and that's going to be more often than fasting where you're running to a great meal with family or friends often on the Sabbath or date night with Lauren, hang out with friends. 44:20.666 --> 44:22.588 [SPEAKER_00]: But when I'm not doing one of those things, 44:23.528 --> 44:25.490 [SPEAKER_00]: I call it an ordinary fair day. 44:26.330 --> 44:34.796 [SPEAKER_00]: And so when presented, this is actually a huge controversy of any of my office, anybody in my office at a voter list and so this, they do, we do, some of them do. 44:34.956 --> 44:42.242 [SPEAKER_00]: We do doughnut Fridays, and sometimes people are like, I wish to do a doughnut Monday or Wednesday, and I'm like, famous for being like, absolutely not. 44:43.342 --> 44:45.524 [SPEAKER_00]: That's not a feast day for me. 44:45.724 --> 44:47.606 [SPEAKER_00]: I can't, and I actually say this was seriousness. 44:48.486 --> 44:49.828 [SPEAKER_00]: I can't start the week with sugar. 44:49.968 --> 44:54.372 [SPEAKER_00]: Like I must, I don't, this is not legalistic. 44:54.392 --> 44:55.853 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm not prescribing this with a listener. 44:55.953 --> 44:56.154 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 44:56.494 --> 45:06.364 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm saying what I've learned about my healthy spiritual rhythms is that I avoid sugar except for on Friday and the weekends. 45:06.384 --> 45:08.205 [SPEAKER_00]: Does that mean today we can have sugar? 45:08.225 --> 45:09.026 [SPEAKER_00]: Are you going to sugar? 45:09.066 --> 45:09.807 [SPEAKER_00]: It's Friday, baby. 45:09.847 --> 45:10.247 [SPEAKER_00]: We can do it. 45:10.307 --> 45:10.628 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 45:11.429 --> 45:22.019 [SPEAKER_00]: Because honestly, and again, like I've never been overweight in my life, I've never been like a chronic eating problem or anything like an eating disorder. 45:22.039 --> 45:25.922 [SPEAKER_00]: But I, with 40 years of age, come to know myself. 45:26.203 --> 45:31.688 [SPEAKER_00]: And I get weird in the head if I'm eating whatever I want on a normal day of the week. 45:32.208 --> 45:34.590 [SPEAKER_00]: So the idea of ordinary fair, like hey, it's an ordinary day. 45:34.610 --> 45:35.791 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm either fasting or feasting. 45:36.191 --> 45:39.213 [SPEAKER_00]: I just have sort of rules, like it's, I don't eat too much. 45:39.553 --> 45:42.095 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't eat out of meal times, and I don't eat sugar. 45:42.115 --> 45:46.418 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I don't have alcohol, because those are feast day stuff. 45:46.758 --> 45:49.760 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, and ask me more questions. 45:49.780 --> 45:50.600 [SPEAKER_00]: Send a voice memo. 45:50.941 --> 45:52.742 [SPEAKER_00]: You can read chapter three, and about to use the soul. 45:52.782 --> 45:55.284 [SPEAKER_00]: It's on food and drink, and I lay this out in a detailed paradigm. 45:56.004 --> 45:58.126 [SPEAKER_00]: but having knowing what day it is. 45:58.627 --> 45:59.327 [SPEAKER_00]: Is it a feast day? 45:59.347 --> 46:00.929 [SPEAKER_00]: Is it a fast day or is it an ordinary fair day? 46:01.589 --> 46:06.214 [SPEAKER_00]: Has helped bring my soul to a healthy relationship to the gifts of food and drinks? 46:06.294 --> 46:06.774 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm good. 46:06.935 --> 46:08.236 [SPEAKER_00]: And really prevented me. 46:08.256 --> 46:11.639 [SPEAKER_00]: This is only in the last five years of my life that I think I've become like good at this. 46:12.580 --> 46:16.364 [SPEAKER_00]: Prevented me from coping inappropriately with food and drink. 46:16.564 --> 46:17.545 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's my recommendation. 46:19.273 --> 46:34.019 [SPEAKER_01]: I think, rewind that again, if you're listening to this, that was really helpful because I think what you just gave was parameters and loose, but effective structure to fit it in. 46:34.039 --> 46:35.500 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, what is a fair day for it? 46:35.540 --> 46:38.081 [SPEAKER_01]: What is it, a normal day for you? 46:38.181 --> 46:40.922 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you, yeah, listener, you need to figure that out. 46:41.022 --> 46:42.103 [SPEAKER_00]: What is your normal fair for you? 46:42.563 --> 46:53.560 [SPEAKER_01]: And then what does feasting look like and then figure that out and everyone's going to look different, but I think as a I love that is a structure, I'm going to just give a couple brief ways of what that could look like maybe in the sense of like. 46:55.213 --> 46:57.795 [SPEAKER_01]: in addition to, but just more to compliment what you just said. 46:58.675 --> 47:09.082 [SPEAKER_01]: I think practicing to kind of learn this, how do you kind of identify this and what's like a really good step to begin to come back gluttony is I would say practice the sacred no. 47:09.282 --> 47:11.083 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to call this the sacred. 47:11.223 --> 47:11.923 [SPEAKER_00]: I love that phrase. 47:12.064 --> 47:12.324 [SPEAKER_01]: No. 47:12.484 --> 47:13.004 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 47:13.024 --> 47:17.967 [SPEAKER_01]: And what that essentially is is you pick something good and you intentionally don't have it. 47:18.628 --> 47:21.749 [SPEAKER_01]: The reason you do that is not because it's bad, but because you want to see 47:24.331 --> 47:29.237 [SPEAKER_01]: the way that you figure out if food to God is stop eating it, fasting. 47:29.598 --> 47:29.838 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 47:30.178 --> 47:37.087 [SPEAKER_01]: We'll reveal so much more than just food, but I mean, your whole person every time I pass them always, surprise, like, wow. 47:37.767 --> 47:41.131 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like all the other things that our food is hiding comes right to the surface. 47:41.692 --> 47:57.719 [SPEAKER_00]: And we're sort of past or say, you know your idol when you find the thing that you'll sin in order to get, and I love the sacred, no idea, because if you're like, oh, I can't not have this, I will break a fast in order to get it, or I'll sin in order to get it. 47:58.539 --> 47:58.759 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 47:58.980 --> 48:02.681 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, you found your idol, and so I just love your phrase, and the sacred, no. 48:03.301 --> 48:03.702 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you. 48:03.802 --> 48:06.683 [SPEAKER_01]: I would say a couple ideas of how to figure this out. 48:07.183 --> 48:07.723 [SPEAKER_01]: Skip to Zurt. 48:08.083 --> 48:08.624 [SPEAKER_01]: See what happens. 48:09.404 --> 48:18.772 [SPEAKER_01]: Leave your phone outside the room, see what happens, turn the TV off, see what happens, stop eating before your stuffed, see what happens. 48:19.352 --> 48:31.222 [SPEAKER_01]: And really again, the point is to identify, where am I, where am I like identifying a sacred no so that I can say a sacred yes and when let God into the deeper part of my life. 48:31.242 --> 48:32.763 [SPEAKER_01]: So I say, that's a big one. 48:33.644 --> 48:34.905 [SPEAKER_01]: You're allowed, last 48:37.647 --> 48:40.489 [SPEAKER_01]: But you're allowed to want something and not have it. 48:41.549 --> 48:43.410 [SPEAKER_01]: It's okay to have something and not get it. 48:44.091 --> 48:48.413 [SPEAKER_01]: And I know that that feels really weird to say, and I'll just be the first to say, like, this is hard for me. 48:48.613 --> 48:49.214 [SPEAKER_01]: That's what I'm saying it. 48:49.734 --> 48:53.496 [SPEAKER_01]: But it's absolutely allowed to want something and not to have it. 48:53.656 --> 48:54.497 [SPEAKER_01]: You don't have to have it. 48:56.778 --> 49:02.603 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'll leave that there because I want to run to support and underline what you're saying. 49:02.763 --> 49:15.094 [SPEAKER_00]: I actually think the state of wanting something, but not having it, is almost a liminal spiritual space that Americans are typically deprived of because we just go to access so much. 49:15.154 --> 49:20.840 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think what I'm using, Brooke, is the idea of like, hey, I want a beard and I, and I'm going to say a sacred note to it. 49:21.340 --> 49:22.741 [SPEAKER_00]: So Kate will want it and not have it. 49:22.801 --> 49:23.021 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 49:23.822 --> 49:48.025 [SPEAKER_00]: we so rarely deny ourselves what we could fairly appropriately have in order to do experience what's it like to want and not have that's like a to me that's a category of fasting that you're kind of talking about yes that we don't practice often enough just a simple and sacred no to something that's otherwise totally fine to have yep so that you can go to a liminal spiritual headspace and be like what is it like to not 49:48.545 --> 49:50.127 [SPEAKER_00]: instantly satisfy every desire. 49:50.187 --> 49:50.467 [SPEAKER_00]: I know. 49:50.547 --> 49:51.548 [SPEAKER_00]: It's such an important thing. 49:51.568 --> 49:51.868 [SPEAKER_00]: I love it. 49:51.908 --> 49:55.412 [SPEAKER_01]: It's also really hard because it reveals how much you do it. 49:55.672 --> 49:56.693 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, that's convicting. 49:56.733 --> 49:57.474 [SPEAKER_01]: That's why I love it. 49:57.574 --> 49:58.235 [SPEAKER_01]: James, the other one. 49:58.815 --> 50:00.977 [SPEAKER_01]: My second quick one is like, fast from your favorite thing. 50:01.077 --> 50:01.798 [SPEAKER_01]: What's your favorite thing? 50:02.058 --> 50:03.720 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, fast from it just just right. 50:04.080 --> 50:08.785 [SPEAKER_01]: So the question just becomes, what do you run to instinctively when you're uncomfortable? 50:09.145 --> 50:11.307 [SPEAKER_01]: So for some it's food, for some it's drink, for some it's TV. 50:12.868 --> 50:14.269 [SPEAKER_01]: try to identify that. 50:14.589 --> 50:15.229 [SPEAKER_01]: What do you run to? 50:15.249 --> 50:15.849 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just be honest. 50:15.889 --> 50:18.369 [SPEAKER_01]: Like I can tell you for me, it's food easy. 50:19.090 --> 50:23.391 [SPEAKER_01]: But I also am not highly food motivated in some ways. 50:23.451 --> 50:26.451 [SPEAKER_01]: Like we're here for this week, we're having a great time. 50:26.471 --> 50:27.312 [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of great meals. 50:27.992 --> 50:33.193 [SPEAKER_01]: You are so much more excited about meals than what we're eating than I've ever been. 50:33.973 --> 50:35.875 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, does that mean you're gluttonous? 50:36.415 --> 50:36.996 [SPEAKER_01]: Not at all. 50:37.116 --> 50:41.279 [SPEAKER_01]: It just means like, you enjoy really good food in the whole experience. 50:42.160 --> 50:48.465 [SPEAKER_00]: I was noticing at our steak dinner, how relatively little you ate compared to me. 50:49.166 --> 50:49.326 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 50:49.806 --> 50:51.948 [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, oh, he's like enjoying this, but, 50:53.190 --> 50:54.611 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think you just put it accurately. 50:54.631 --> 50:56.993 [SPEAKER_00]: You're not as smooth mode. 50:57.013 --> 51:04.359 [SPEAKER_00]: Do I keep a tight, you know, I'm genuinely curious about you because you just said you will run to food to cope. 51:04.660 --> 51:04.860 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 51:05.480 --> 51:08.283 [SPEAKER_00]: But I can also see from just hanging out with you. 51:08.423 --> 51:11.185 [SPEAKER_00]: You're not like super food motivated at the same time. 51:11.225 --> 51:12.806 [SPEAKER_00]: Just say more. 51:12.827 --> 51:13.387 [SPEAKER_00]: How does that work? 51:16.609 --> 51:19.051 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I love this. 51:19.111 --> 51:21.473 [SPEAKER_01]: I love this cross, cross examining lawyer. 51:22.714 --> 51:24.035 [SPEAKER_00]: To be clear, I totally believe you. 51:24.055 --> 51:25.956 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not like, I think you're actually just different than me. 51:26.176 --> 51:27.237 [SPEAKER_00]: No, it's not like, I don't really know. 51:27.257 --> 51:29.159 [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no, no, this is, I'm teasing out. 51:29.179 --> 51:30.139 [SPEAKER_01]: This is great. 51:31.420 --> 51:32.121 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, this is good. 51:32.161 --> 51:33.922 [SPEAKER_01]: It's helping me actually think a little bit deeper. 51:34.483 --> 51:34.643 [SPEAKER_01]: What? 51:34.923 --> 51:36.364 [SPEAKER_01]: I can say those two things because 51:37.425 --> 51:45.470 [SPEAKER_01]: at a steak dinner with friends, I'm enjoying my friends in town or enjoying good food, good drink, it's a celebratory time. 51:45.510 --> 51:46.310 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like this is great. 51:46.990 --> 51:50.793 [SPEAKER_01]: I also could have just as great of a time eating at like Chick-fil-A with you. 51:51.793 --> 51:52.173 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 51:52.213 --> 51:56.336 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, I know that you might be go, you might go because that's why not true for me. 51:56.396 --> 51:57.176 [SPEAKER_00]: I see what you're saying. 51:57.216 --> 51:57.676 [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly. 51:57.736 --> 51:58.237 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean like, 51:58.937 --> 52:07.005 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't need the food to be this certain quality and tear and beauty to enjoy the experience. 52:08.346 --> 52:16.414 [SPEAKER_01]: But I will say, and again, I think this is the heart issue, if I'm feeling a lot overwhelmed and stressed, I love cereal. 52:16.715 --> 52:17.836 [SPEAKER_01]: But I don't like cereal in the morning. 52:17.956 --> 52:18.696 [SPEAKER_01]: I like it at night. 52:19.617 --> 52:21.039 [SPEAKER_01]: I'll easily go eat cereal. 52:21.460 --> 52:21.680 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 52:22.581 --> 52:23.882 [SPEAKER_01]: Am I eating cereal because I need it? 52:24.523 --> 52:24.844 [SPEAKER_01]: No. 52:25.224 --> 52:26.105 [SPEAKER_01]: Am I eating it? 52:26.225 --> 52:27.747 [SPEAKER_01]: Because it's like a comforting. 52:27.967 --> 52:28.207 [SPEAKER_01]: God. 52:28.247 --> 52:29.068 [SPEAKER_01]: It's been a long day. 52:29.309 --> 52:32.833 [SPEAKER_01]: So what I'm trying to highlight is like that to me would fall in the category of letting me 52:34.139 --> 52:39.024 [SPEAKER_01]: where as yeah, I'm not like dude, I got to have this excellent meal to be fine. 52:39.384 --> 52:44.149 [SPEAKER_01]: So I maybe that's just the juxtaposition of my situation, but that's how that comes up for me. 52:44.289 --> 52:51.096 [SPEAKER_00]: So that makes sense and it actually reminded me of one thing I read in preparation for this episode that I didn't actually mention. 52:51.256 --> 52:51.957 [SPEAKER_00]: Ooh, I'm excited. 52:52.197 --> 52:54.579 [SPEAKER_00]: Aquinas defined gluttony as 52:56.776 --> 53:06.060 [SPEAKER_00]: eating too soon, too expensively, too much to legally or I love this one. 53:06.080 --> 53:07.520 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's what you were just talking about. 53:07.560 --> 53:08.321 [SPEAKER_00]: Too daintily. 53:08.861 --> 53:11.402 [SPEAKER_00]: And by that, he met like it's too complex, it's too fancy. 53:11.602 --> 53:14.643 [SPEAKER_00]: So it could, you're glad, I just thought these were helpful categories. 53:14.663 --> 53:15.363 [SPEAKER_00]: They're really helpful. 53:15.383 --> 53:17.824 [SPEAKER_00]: Because you don't have to do it all of these. 53:17.864 --> 53:18.965 [SPEAKER_00]: You might just do one of these. 53:19.025 --> 53:21.626 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like too soon it'll be like you can't wait. 53:21.666 --> 53:24.547 [SPEAKER_01]: You're greedy because you're like, I must have the first serving or the biggest one. 53:25.107 --> 53:37.739 [SPEAKER_00]: to extensively could be like, you're, you, and I would bear more towards this, you're gluttonous because you are so arrogant and like, I will only eat the finest meat or I'll only have the best beer or something like that. 53:37.759 --> 53:39.260 [SPEAKER_00]: It's actually a form of gluttony. 53:40.321 --> 53:50.810 [SPEAKER_00]: Much, that's when we obviously think about, to eagerly, that's what I'm honestly constantly reminding my kids of like, hey, we're human beings who eat gratefully at the table, which, 53:51.771 --> 53:53.173 [SPEAKER_00]: This is not just manners stuff. 53:53.193 --> 53:54.554 [SPEAKER_00]: I actually think this is spiritual stuff. 53:55.155 --> 54:10.831 [SPEAKER_00]: That's why we don't grab the food first put our head down and eat like dogs Because you're a human being so you eat with gratitude and a lawn or you're like and so eating too eagerly would be like that You don't have manners, but I actually think this spiritual woman then that last one Too daintily. 54:10.871 --> 54:11.491 [SPEAKER_00]: It's the idea that 54:14.033 --> 54:20.257 [SPEAKER_00]: chill out, it doesn't have to be like arranged in this wild, fancy, gastronomic wave of the finest restaurant. 54:20.597 --> 54:22.078 [SPEAKER_00]: That's also a form of gluttony. 54:22.178 --> 54:27.562 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I was going to say that there's, um, that falls in, it's so funny how many of these overlap. 54:27.862 --> 54:28.582 [SPEAKER_01]: Like I do. 54:28.702 --> 54:30.684 [SPEAKER_01]: I constantly am like thinking of how many of these do. 54:31.184 --> 54:33.766 [SPEAKER_00]: So let me just I hope that helps people see it's not just too much. 54:34.027 --> 54:36.449 [SPEAKER_00]: No, because I think that's what you were saying and it was actually really helpful. 54:36.509 --> 54:40.172 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it isn't just too much because you can actually be letting this in on you very much. 54:40.212 --> 54:45.236 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but I think the lastly and I and we'll be done. 54:45.276 --> 54:49.580 [SPEAKER_01]: I just want to this this topic is one that again, just like the others. 54:49.961 --> 54:58.328 [SPEAKER_01]: They're very sneaky and they can be very easy to put in the category of not that big of a 54:59.812 --> 55:01.312 [SPEAKER_01]: and you can live your whole life there. 55:02.073 --> 55:12.396 [SPEAKER_01]: So I just want to wake you up to say, you can justify these, these are justifiable enough to go under the radar for the entire of your life and to destroy it. 55:12.596 --> 55:16.817 [SPEAKER_01]: So do you have to wake up to the fact that you might be letting this or not? 55:17.237 --> 55:19.718 [SPEAKER_01]: No, will you be ever thankfully did? 55:19.918 --> 55:20.618 [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely. 55:20.698 --> 55:21.358 [SPEAKER_00]: That's really good. 55:21.538 --> 55:23.959 [SPEAKER_01]: And let me just say for my own life, although complicated, 55:25.347 --> 55:29.671 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have any of, I cannot say, and it would be stupid for me to say. 55:29.691 --> 55:32.152 [SPEAKER_01]: And I know you would agree, I'm sure, Justin. 55:32.653 --> 55:35.375 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have any of these vices, die-yield. 55:36.056 --> 55:45.163 [SPEAKER_01]: What I have is information on them of how they can impact me, and I'm constantly aware of how they can destroy my life, and I'm trying to mitigate against that. 55:45.743 --> 55:49.446 [SPEAKER_01]: But I think from time to time, like, let me be fair with all of these. 55:54.771 --> 55:55.552 [SPEAKER_01]: I struggle with envy. 55:55.753 --> 55:56.494 [SPEAKER_01]: I run it clean here. 55:56.935 --> 55:57.576 [SPEAKER_01]: I struggle with us. 55:58.317 --> 56:00.240 [SPEAKER_01]: I struggle with greed or gluttony. 56:00.981 --> 56:02.264 [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to talk about greed next. 56:02.524 --> 56:03.706 [SPEAKER_01]: Right. 56:03.726 --> 56:05.830 [SPEAKER_01]: I, these are in my life. 56:07.069 --> 56:12.391 [SPEAKER_01]: we all have these things it's just to say and encourage like there is hope and you don't have to let these rule you. 56:12.431 --> 56:14.031 [SPEAKER_01]: And so what we're talking about is not letting rule you. 56:14.051 --> 56:15.612 [SPEAKER_01]: So this is an invitation. 56:15.632 --> 56:16.212 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not forced. 56:16.272 --> 56:22.153 [SPEAKER_01]: It's obviously like invitation because your father who needs you to take vice seriously and not let it control you. 56:22.253 --> 56:27.455 [SPEAKER_01]: So that was been a great I love these conversations, but just and thanks for your wisdom on this one. 56:27.775 --> 56:29.897 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think I'm closing out. 56:30.758 --> 56:34.322 [SPEAKER_00]: I'll say we're about to do an episode on greed, which will be in the exact same category. 56:34.362 --> 56:35.703 [SPEAKER_00]: I really like Brooke, how you said. 56:36.044 --> 56:48.937 [SPEAKER_00]: This is one of the ones you don't have to address, to gluttony, and I think greed will be like this because it's possible that everybody sees the bad ways that you eat and nobody says anything because these are, 56:50.339 --> 56:58.025 [SPEAKER_00]: These are just generally less attended to in the American way of life, but I'll just say 56:59.708 --> 57:21.534 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, there was a time in my life where I was in my early 30s where I constantly drank too often, every too much, and I constantly ate too greedily because I was coping with my own anxiety and pressure from work, and God shifting my perspective around food in the past five years, and being where I am now, I feel so much freer. 57:21.974 --> 57:25.535 [SPEAKER_00]: And I put that heart and back to our constant theme in these episodes that 57:26.075 --> 57:30.576 [SPEAKER_00]: It takes them more seriously than you think because it is impacting your life and family more seriously than you think. 57:31.177 --> 57:34.938 [SPEAKER_00]: But it's also that leads you to the wonderful story of God's grace. 57:34.958 --> 57:36.498 [SPEAKER_00]: He has more work to do than you think. 57:36.578 --> 57:40.179 [SPEAKER_00]: And even in this area and in greed next week we'll talk about this. 57:40.820 --> 57:42.040 [SPEAKER_00]: He's got more work than you think to do. 57:42.220 --> 57:44.881 [SPEAKER_00]: He's good to do it so surrender to him. 57:46.181 --> 57:46.902 [SPEAKER_00]: signing off for now. 57:46.922 --> 57:48.102 [SPEAKER_01]: We'll talk about where you next time. 57:48.182 --> 57:49.003 [SPEAKER_00]: Just one. 57:49.023 --> 57:49.483 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, good. 57:49.503 --> 57:49.963 [SPEAKER_00]: You got one more. 57:49.983 --> 57:51.644 [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, it's not even a note. 57:51.784 --> 57:59.347 [SPEAKER_01]: It's if your friend is falling into the sand of gluttony and, you know, you're together and one of these people buys an incredible. 58:00.068 --> 58:05.510 [SPEAKER_01]: The other friend shouldn't take the photo of that and then posted online and be like, look what's happening. 58:05.790 --> 58:09.752 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just giving you the sample of what would be potentially hurtful to them. 58:09.772 --> 58:14.595 [SPEAKER_00]: I just thought it was maybe very dainty that you ate non-crustable and I wanted to share that to the world's social media. 58:14.615 --> 58:18.877 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you sometimes send us a voice memo with you eat and non-crustable or not? 58:18.977 --> 58:20.258 [SPEAKER_00]: One of us would, one of us won't. 58:23.079 --> 58:26.221 [SPEAKER_01]: And I would say what stops you from probably eating an