WEBVTT 00:07.341 --> 00:12.904 [SPEAKER_00]: Hello and welcome to another episode of DICE Explode or each week we take a tabletop mechanic and sue it for cause. 00:12.964 --> 00:16.506 [SPEAKER_00]: My name is Sam Dunno-Wald and my co-host today is John Harper. 00:16.706 --> 00:17.446 [SPEAKER_00]: John's back. 00:17.807 --> 00:23.230 [SPEAKER_00]: He's the designer of so many games including Lady Blackbird, lasers and feelings and of course, blades in the dark. 00:23.470 --> 00:28.713 [SPEAKER_00]: All games I've covered on this show, blades in particular is one of my all-time favorite games in John's episode of this show. 00:29.033 --> 00:32.915 [SPEAKER_00]: About other kinds of dice is one of my favorite nuts and bolts episodes of this show. 00:33.475 --> 00:41.158 [SPEAKER_00]: And for the past two years or so, I've always hated having to write these intros after the fact and record them later and stitch them into the show, but I felt weirdly obligated to not mess around with my format. 00:41.478 --> 00:45.060 [SPEAKER_00]: But fuck it, we're here at the end of my time on dice exploded, but we're still changing it up. 00:45.100 --> 00:46.220 [SPEAKER_00]: It's never too late to make change. 00:46.480 --> 00:47.641 [SPEAKER_00]: We're no more intros. 00:47.861 --> 00:49.262 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm already here with John. 00:49.522 --> 00:50.982 [SPEAKER_00]: John, thanks for coming back on dice, exploded. 00:51.382 --> 00:52.143 [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for having me. 00:52.163 --> 00:54.744 [SPEAKER_01]: I've been looking forward to it. 00:55.064 --> 00:57.485 [SPEAKER_00]: We're here today to talk about what are we talking about? 00:58.293 --> 01:09.386 [SPEAKER_01]: Today we are talking about rights from Apocalypse World Dark Ages, which is a very interesting mechanic slash procedure slash. 01:10.407 --> 01:11.509 [SPEAKER_01]: We'll get into the slashes. 01:11.589 --> 01:12.970 [SPEAKER_01]: There's it's it's yeah. 01:14.539 --> 01:17.983 [SPEAKER_00]: We'll get into all that, but yeah, let's definitely start with Dark Ages. 01:18.524 --> 01:33.041 [SPEAKER_00]: My understanding of this is that it's like, Apocalypse World's Second Edition has kind of come out, and the bakers are making this like hack of it, that is like Dark Ages kind of skinned, and then around 2014 they abandoned, 01:34.663 --> 01:46.012 [SPEAKER_00]: work on that hack, and in the past year or two, Andrew Gillis and Luke Jordan have like picked that back up and are redeveloping it with the Baker's blessing to eventually get it published here. 01:46.212 --> 01:48.494 [SPEAKER_00]: Tell me in more detail like do I have that right? 01:48.674 --> 01:54.238 [SPEAKER_00]: What was the tabletop design community like in 2012, 2014? 01:54.939 --> 01:56.580 [SPEAKER_00]: And like what was this game coming out of? 01:56.960 --> 01:58.861 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't remember the timing with second edition. 01:58.901 --> 02:01.043 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's around there somewhere probably. 02:01.823 --> 02:04.645 [SPEAKER_00]: But second edition was 2011 or 12. 02:04.805 --> 02:07.006 [SPEAKER_00]: I can't remember which, but it was definitely what it makes sense. 02:07.787 --> 02:16.832 [SPEAKER_01]: For me, in the design space, that was right before we started working, well, the beginning of blades was happening like 2012, 2013ish. 02:17.513 --> 02:19.014 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's kind of overlapping there. 02:19.414 --> 02:21.035 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was exploring at the beginning of that. 02:21.433 --> 02:25.196 [SPEAKER_01]: like Straight Up Apocalypse World, P-B-T-A approach to that game. 02:25.356 --> 02:37.845 [SPEAKER_01]: And that was partially because what Vincent and Meg were doing with Apocalypse World was really interesting to me, Dark Age, and also what became, I think, Warriors of the World of Blaze, which is kind of like, 02:38.185 --> 02:42.970 [SPEAKER_01]: apocalypse world but also let's throw in like dark sorcery and make it more heavy metal. 02:43.330 --> 02:45.712 [SPEAKER_01]: And I had worked on a few little hacks. 02:46.213 --> 02:53.740 [SPEAKER_01]: I had this really great game group for many years that was willing to play anything which Paul Riddle and St. Latour over in that group. 02:53.840 --> 02:58.325 [SPEAKER_01]: And then Jim World was developed there and polaroid and dying the vampire game there and we played 02:58.805 --> 03:02.067 [SPEAKER_01]: Whatever, I would show up and be like, how about this thing that I wrote yesterday? 03:02.087 --> 03:05.028 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you want to try this and I'm Vincent and Megworth kind of doing the same thing? 03:05.048 --> 03:25.177 [SPEAKER_01]: Messing around with the Poclox world the way it's presented the way playbooks worked and so I think Everyone was excited about seeing their work because a Poclox world already flourished a bunch Across many many designers reinterpreting it in their own various ways But seeing the bakers come back to it and really dig into it and do interesting things reignited it I think for some people like me 03:25.477 --> 03:26.978 [SPEAKER_00]: I just looked up, I was super wrong. 03:27.119 --> 03:28.680 [SPEAKER_00]: It 2016 was second edition. 03:28.760 --> 03:31.823 [SPEAKER_00]: So this would have been maybe like co- of all of them with that. 03:31.883 --> 03:32.664 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that makes sense. 03:32.684 --> 03:32.884 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 03:32.904 --> 03:41.132 [SPEAKER_00]: But the story I've always heard before is that Vincent just put out this video last night of like about the influences on a pop-lip's world. 03:41.692 --> 03:51.396 [SPEAKER_00]: By the time Apocalypse World was published because they'd been sharing drafts with you and some other people that like all these other games were sort of halfway through development already. 03:51.977 --> 04:02.921 [SPEAKER_00]: And so that first wave of PPT games that then it feels like this came out of responding to monster hits and dungeon worlds in the way that you were just kind of talking about and all those that generation of games. 04:03.522 --> 04:06.263 [SPEAKER_00]: But all that was so quick on the heels of Apocalypse World. 04:06.523 --> 04:09.825 [SPEAKER_01]: It was, yeah, and it was kind of rapid development. 04:09.966 --> 04:11.226 [SPEAKER_01]: Dendrum World had been published. 04:11.246 --> 04:15.770 [SPEAKER_01]: I was 2012, and that gave it more exposure outside the apocalypse world, sort of circles. 04:15.990 --> 04:22.134 [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, our game group was just really interested in the kind of wealth for us anyway, not everyone does this. 04:22.194 --> 04:27.558 [SPEAKER_01]: But there's kind of an essential PVP nature that can arise from apocalypse world itself. 04:28.492 --> 04:44.504 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's close, starvations, and our group was really into that type of play where the PCs are the main antagonist for each other in the main movers and shakers, and then I think that was in the Baker's minds too, and because Dark Age is really like leans into that. 04:45.505 --> 04:50.889 [SPEAKER_01]: And we started play testing and it was like, you know, comfortable little pair of shoes for that game group. 04:50.949 --> 04:54.971 [SPEAKER_01]: We had been doing that already and then we jumped into this and we're like, yes, okay. 04:55.352 --> 04:58.954 [SPEAKER_01]: This is what we were doing in Warhammer 2nd Edition campaign together. 04:59.254 --> 05:00.975 [SPEAKER_01]: And now we have apocalypse world to do it with. 05:01.636 --> 05:03.717 [SPEAKER_01]: So that was very satisfying to see. 05:04.298 --> 05:11.963 [SPEAKER_01]: Once again, the Bakers in capsulating something that was already there that we were doing with our own like table culture and our table techniques. 05:12.523 --> 05:30.068 [SPEAKER_00]: they were encapsulating it into a system that really was supported that yeah I mean that brings us right up to rights but honestly before we get into rights I want to talk about moves because as I'm reading about rights they feel like a different but related 05:30.668 --> 05:36.053 [SPEAKER_00]: sort of naming of the thing that happens, especially in role-playing games, but really in like a lot of games. 05:36.453 --> 05:41.577 [SPEAKER_00]: And uh, I want to just like briefly touch on how do we feel about moves like like at large? 05:41.597 --> 05:47.002 [SPEAKER_00]: Like what was it like when apocalypse world named what moves are in the first place? 05:47.382 --> 05:49.064 [SPEAKER_01]: It was pretty amazing. 05:49.285 --> 05:58.436 [SPEAKER_01]: I've said this many times, but like getting that email from Vincent with the brainer, I believe, and he's like, hey, check this out. 05:58.456 --> 05:59.898 [SPEAKER_01]: What do you think about this? 05:59.938 --> 06:02.662 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you think this is an interesting way to make a character? 06:02.922 --> 06:04.084 [SPEAKER_01]: And they with these little tiny, 06:04.444 --> 06:07.705 [SPEAKER_01]: You're like printed the page out and then folded it up into a little booklet. 06:07.945 --> 06:09.966 [SPEAKER_01]: It was a playbook, it was a little tiny book. 06:10.366 --> 06:12.567 [SPEAKER_01]: They were really annoying to assemble, so that got that got. 06:12.947 --> 06:17.709 [SPEAKER_00]: You're making a book-shaped little thing with your fingers here for the people at home. 06:17.889 --> 06:18.469 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah. 06:18.869 --> 06:19.770 [SPEAKER_01]: It's good, good radio. 06:20.190 --> 06:28.833 [SPEAKER_00]: I have a friend who makes little microzines like that, just sort of like as a nervous tick thing, but like the small size of it is really... 06:29.253 --> 06:34.217 [SPEAKER_00]: cute and approachable and practical in a lot of ways because it fits really in your pocket too, right? 06:34.357 --> 06:35.798 [SPEAKER_01]: It was really cool, yeah. 06:36.058 --> 06:37.059 [SPEAKER_01]: They could have stayed that way. 06:37.099 --> 06:41.042 [SPEAKER_01]: They were fun to carry around and like flip through and mark your moves and stuff. 06:41.082 --> 06:44.345 [SPEAKER_01]: But I think at some point, it became too much of a chore. 06:44.365 --> 06:51.931 [SPEAKER_01]: But I vividly remember the moment of flipping through that thing and seeing when you open your brain to the world psychic mail strum. 06:52.291 --> 06:54.473 [SPEAKER_01]: roll-blah and on a 10 plus. 06:55.074 --> 06:59.538 [SPEAKER_01]: And just that way of saying it, it wasn't anything new mechanically. 06:59.858 --> 07:17.113 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like when you swing your long-sword at a goblin, roll your attack bonus against its armor class, like you could you could structure it that way for any kind of mechanic, but just seeing that language and the clarity of that, the fictional trigger of that being put front and center, because we were obsessed with at the 4rd in the early days, 2001, 2002, 07:19.175 --> 07:22.137 [SPEAKER_01]: with like triggers and what when do you roll the dice? 07:22.237 --> 07:23.378 [SPEAKER_01]: Why are you rolling the dice? 07:23.498 --> 07:24.218 [SPEAKER_01]: What are the stakes? 07:24.759 --> 07:25.799 [SPEAKER_01]: It's really important. 07:25.859 --> 07:30.422 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like a thing that gets when it gets glossed over play can stumble quite a bit. 07:30.562 --> 07:30.883 [SPEAKER_01]: I think so 07:31.905 --> 07:42.015 [SPEAKER_01]: seeing that clarity of vision to be like, I'm going to put all the fictional triggers right in front of you that shared ones that every character has common and then these are yours and your little booklet, the special ones. 07:42.335 --> 07:53.125 [SPEAKER_01]: It really ignited something in my brain and I immediately started like that day I started making my own stuff in that format because it just it just unlocked it kind of. 07:54.406 --> 08:14.867 [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like kind of the magic of it like going back to the central question of like when do you roll dice in games like that's like the lasers and feelings version of that question is the first episode of dice exploded right and we could have gone twice as long as we did on there you know and I still don't feel like we answered the question then I still don't feel like any of my games to answer it as well as apocalypse world moves to right because 08:15.387 --> 08:23.490 [SPEAKER_00]: So many different answers are valid and so many different answers that people come up with come down to like, okay, what is this game want? 08:23.630 --> 08:26.732 [SPEAKER_00]: And what is also my personal taste and what is my table's taste? 08:26.832 --> 08:37.676 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I think of the OSR community versus the story game community and all these kinds of different cultures of play have different answers, all of which are like well suited to what they're trying to do. 08:38.036 --> 08:39.157 [SPEAKER_00]: And the beauty of the 08:40.337 --> 08:46.162 [SPEAKER_00]: pure clarity of it in a apocalypse world like you were talking about is that it is saying look I don't know what you else you've got going on. 08:46.282 --> 08:55.710 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure it's great for you But for this game like we are all going to get on the same page about this here's that page and I think just having the language for that is is so helpful 08:56.010 --> 08:57.491 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's a great way to put it. 08:57.591 --> 09:19.952 [SPEAKER_01]: There's a million ways to come at that and a bunch of them work well at different tables and with people different people, but it not only is telling you okay when when this thing happens in the fiction that this is the mechanic you invoke it's also saying like if you don't see a trigger you're probably not rolling dice for that you might be there might be some a move that we're not aware of yet. 09:20.412 --> 09:26.561 [SPEAKER_00]: Or maybe you want to like, if you want to rule dice for it, maybe you need to modify your narration to hit one of the triggers, right? 09:27.022 --> 09:29.685 [SPEAKER_01]: Right, or maybe a customer would be a good fit. 09:29.886 --> 09:36.896 [SPEAKER_01]: But a lot of the time, especially in Apocalypse World itself, it does pretty much have you covered, and it's a third edition, especially. 09:37.356 --> 09:39.978 [SPEAKER_01]: It filled in some of the holes that people had run into over the years. 09:40.219 --> 10:00.215 [SPEAKER_01]: So when it isn't really calling for a role, you can functionally not go to the dice and the game is telling you kind of like, this is where we're supposed to resolve this without the role, fall back to the MC instructions and keep asking questions and keep moving the fiction forward and we're inevitably going to run into the next move down the road, but 10:00.844 --> 10:27.145 [SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of giving clarity to both sides, like the classic thing of like because there's a knowledge skill I'm tempted to ask for knowledge checks and like I probably shouldn't in this case you're the wizard you know this so having that space to think about how often in the like kind of fantasy dungeon crawl game I used to as a kid you're asking for perception checks all the time and then like at a certain point after playing enough. 10:27.665 --> 10:33.507 [SPEAKER_00]: apocalypse world and blades and like other games like that, I just sort of internalized just if they ask just tell them. 10:33.687 --> 10:39.989 [SPEAKER_00]: Like it's so much more compelling if you just tell them everything and they decide what to do about it instead of playing Gotcha, you know? 10:40.950 --> 10:46.872 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah and you get to do that fun thing like one of the examples I think it's a custom move in the back of apocalypse world is. 10:47.292 --> 10:52.735 [SPEAKER_01]: There's a perception check move back there, but it's when you go into Drimmer's territory. 10:53.055 --> 10:57.718 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like you need to look out for traps and dangers and ambushes because that's who Drimmer is. 10:57.938 --> 11:02.000 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's kind of a perception check, but it's not because it's Drimmer's territory. 11:02.060 --> 11:05.122 [SPEAKER_01]: His traps, his snipers, his ambushers, and it happens to 11:05.542 --> 11:09.704 [SPEAKER_01]: specifically in that situation, and with those specific outcomes, there's not a blanket. 11:09.904 --> 11:11.405 [SPEAKER_01]: Can you see stuff roll? 11:11.585 --> 11:13.926 [SPEAKER_00]: It's making the stakes personal, right? 11:14.026 --> 11:15.427 [SPEAKER_00]: Not just abstract. 11:15.927 --> 11:16.247 [SPEAKER_00]: Gotcha. 11:16.547 --> 11:17.367 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly. 11:18.028 --> 11:23.090 [SPEAKER_00]: So I wanted to bring all that up to set the table that way, because I feel like reading rights. 11:23.190 --> 11:25.231 [SPEAKER_00]: I haven't gotten to play Dark Ages, but reading rights. 11:25.251 --> 11:27.492 [SPEAKER_00]: I had the same feeling of, oh yeah. 11:27.632 --> 11:34.520 [SPEAKER_00]: This is the thing that is happening all the time, and essentially every game that I play, and like, here's some language for it, incredible. 11:34.640 --> 11:40.005 [SPEAKER_00]: And like, in the same way that not every game necessarily needs, moves, maybe not every game needs to call out, right? 11:40.146 --> 11:47.454 [SPEAKER_00]: But wow, what a useful framework to have, especially in that kind of PVP context that you were talking about. 11:49.436 --> 11:59.828 [SPEAKER_01]: Right, so they're moves, and they look like moves from a popular world as a fictional trigger, has a stat that you roll, and it has outcomes on 10 plus 79, 6 or less, and sometimes not. 11:59.909 --> 12:07.358 [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes it is a description of a right character holds in the fiction of the world that all the players, and the MC, 12:07.898 --> 12:31.639 [SPEAKER_01]: acknowledge as true for your character and the characters in the fiction mostly do but may not in some circumstances will get into that probably but they are fictional rights that your character has because of their status or because of their history or their community and you can call on those in the way that you might in another game because it's just a fact but now I know actually 12:34.581 --> 12:49.612 [SPEAKER_01]: I have this right, I spin XP on it, it's a, it's systematizes that, um, fact of my character in a way that, um, makes it concrete and then one of the basic moves of the game ties into all the rights, um, and that basic move is. 12:50.172 --> 12:55.357 [SPEAKER_01]: When you're denied your rights, you pick from this list of how you respond, so it feeds back into that loop. 12:55.738 --> 13:04.606 [SPEAKER_01]: So I have the I have the right in the fiction sometimes that means rolling dice sometimes it doesn't and then when those rights are denied we escalate essentially we escalate the tension 13:05.234 --> 13:07.196 [SPEAKER_00]: So, let's grab a specific example here. 13:07.596 --> 13:09.078 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you have one in front of you? 13:09.398 --> 13:17.025 [SPEAKER_01]: So, there's a playbook in, starting to just call it the blacksmith, and they have a right that you can choose for them called, you are a free landowner. 13:17.506 --> 13:21.189 [SPEAKER_01]: And if you take this as one of your starting things with XP, it that becomes true. 13:21.209 --> 13:27.976 [SPEAKER_01]: You have the right as a free landowner, and it gives you these four truths that you can try to enforce because of this right. 13:28.416 --> 13:39.584 [SPEAKER_00]: Actually, I want to pause you already, because I think what this right is doing is it's like declaring a truth about your character, you are a free landowner, and then that is giving you four rights, which it lists off. 13:39.604 --> 13:39.964 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 13:40.245 --> 13:49.171 [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes the rights are also truths about your character, like another blacksmith one here is you have the right to take a student, right? 13:49.712 --> 13:49.832 [SPEAKER_00]: And 13:50.432 --> 13:53.073 [SPEAKER_00]: That one doesn't say you have a student, right? 13:53.153 --> 13:54.913 [SPEAKER_00]: Just taking the right to take one. 13:55.173 --> 14:04.755 [SPEAKER_00]: And so probably you do, but the sort of like, is the fact that this is implying true about your character is correlated with the right that you have? 14:05.495 --> 14:11.277 [SPEAKER_01]: It also means like if I take a student as a blacksmith and I haven't chosen this, right? 14:11.537 --> 14:16.338 [SPEAKER_01]: Someone would be within their rights to call me out and say, hey, you don't have the right to do that. 14:16.358 --> 14:17.158 [SPEAKER_01]: What are you talking about? 14:17.358 --> 14:25.444 [SPEAKER_00]: And the way that the game text describes it is that all the players are obligated to respect your rights. 14:25.704 --> 14:34.231 [SPEAKER_00]: And like the characters in the game might not respect your rights, but like the players don't have to respect your fucking student unless you have the right to take a student. 14:34.391 --> 14:35.832 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's get through the land on our rights, though. 14:36.372 --> 14:37.232 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah, the landowner. 14:37.352 --> 14:41.774 [SPEAKER_01]: So when you take that, you have the right to ready your household for what's coming as you see fit. 14:41.974 --> 14:44.855 [SPEAKER_01]: The right to offer hospitality and protection to those under your roof. 14:45.135 --> 14:45.715 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a big one. 14:45.976 --> 14:48.236 [SPEAKER_01]: The right to treat and contract with your neighbors. 14:48.597 --> 14:50.937 [SPEAKER_01]: So some sort of binding agreements can be made. 14:51.238 --> 15:02.162 [SPEAKER_01]: And the right to the fruits of your labor and the increase of your household, which if we're playing the setting of the game is a setting of lords and leaders and kings and 15:03.895 --> 15:04.776 [SPEAKER_01]: and peasants. 15:05.136 --> 15:11.341 [SPEAKER_01]: And so taking this all of a sudden, you're like, no, actually, I'm not sending all of my food to the king. 15:11.882 --> 15:14.784 [SPEAKER_01]: I have a right to keep mine and to increase the bounty of my own household. 15:14.824 --> 15:21.430 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, like, that is a major shift in the balance of power that you get just by declaring that you have this right. 15:21.530 --> 15:22.731 [SPEAKER_01]: And obviously, 15:23.131 --> 15:30.537 [SPEAKER_01]: some people probably wearing armor, writing horses are going to show up and maybe want to deny that right of that you have now claimed about your food in your household. 15:30.877 --> 15:41.166 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's this double edge, a lot of them are like this, where they're potentially game-changing, power-shifting, dynamic options that attract trouble and drama. 15:41.466 --> 15:46.330 [SPEAKER_01]: And probably the person sending those guys or writing with those guys, 15:46.710 --> 15:52.356 [SPEAKER_01]: is one of the piece other PCs, so that is another factor that's going to drive that dramatic play. 15:52.436 --> 15:57.060 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think a lot of the rights are written and created in a way to not just be these facts. 15:57.140 --> 16:05.128 [SPEAKER_01]: They are, in fact, like drama triggers, a way to escalate stakes into create bonds and tension between the PCs. 16:06.263 --> 16:14.867 [SPEAKER_00]: The game text as it currently exists on it has sort of six bullet points about how rights work with a lot of explanation underneath. 16:15.147 --> 16:20.530 [SPEAKER_00]: But I want to kind of maybe skim through those and then get into the when your rights are denied basic move. 16:21.130 --> 16:25.412 [SPEAKER_00]: But just want to make sure we kind of sort of cover what the book has to say about rights here. 16:25.532 --> 16:31.135 [SPEAKER_00]: Some of this will have already talked about, but first it says, your rights are statements of narrative or mechanical. 16:31.235 --> 16:31.956 [SPEAKER_00]: We'll get to that later. 16:32.096 --> 16:32.656 [SPEAKER_00]: A fact. 16:33.036 --> 16:35.940 [SPEAKER_00]: narrative facts that all the players agree are true about your character. 16:36.161 --> 16:37.122 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we've talked about that. 16:37.723 --> 16:39.626 [SPEAKER_00]: The world in the characters is number two. 16:39.666 --> 16:44.072 [SPEAKER_00]: The world in the characters who inhabit it are not obligated to agree or cooperate. 16:44.853 --> 16:47.097 [SPEAKER_00]: They can run around and like fuck with your rights, right? 16:47.117 --> 16:49.180 [SPEAKER_00]: Like that's what we've also been talking about here. 16:49.620 --> 16:55.408 [SPEAKER_00]: Then it says, third, it's fruitful to have your rights denied, which is the thing you were just kind of saying, right? 16:55.648 --> 17:04.379 [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of the conflict of the game comes from that feeling of, oh, I have claimed some rights and now another player is going to come harass me about it. 17:05.040 --> 17:26.920 [SPEAKER_00]: And specifically, in the follow-up text to some of these bullet points, it talks about how there's like a slight of hand here happening where the players agree to respect the rights of your character, but also the players are controlling all the fiction that it's coming to deny your rights, but that like maintaining both of those things as true, like, 17:27.300 --> 17:39.956 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that this sort of way you solve that not is by recognizing that like when you declare a right about your character, that is true in the world, right? 17:40.056 --> 17:43.461 [SPEAKER_00]: And so one else might not like it and come like fuck with you about it. 17:43.681 --> 17:45.924 [SPEAKER_00]: But that doesn't change the fact that it is true. 17:46.404 --> 17:52.309 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and because it's driven by the character, like again, we as players are like cool, we able respect each other here. 17:52.970 --> 17:55.291 [SPEAKER_01]: My character might not have a problem with that. 17:55.572 --> 18:11.365 [SPEAKER_01]: Potentially until I take a right that happens to conflict, and we didn't really plan that out ahead of time, but the people who wrote all these rights, Andrew and Luke now, are building those little discoveries in there, maybe. 18:11.565 --> 18:11.645 [SPEAKER_01]: And 18:12.235 --> 18:17.178 [SPEAKER_01]: It'll give us the side of hand you're talking about like all of a sudden now I go wait a minute now my character. 18:17.238 --> 18:17.738 [SPEAKER_01]: Wait a minute. 18:18.339 --> 18:40.431 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh no And as the third bullet point says here it will be fruitful to have your rights denied right and like that's what the game is So the fourth bullet point here We've been leading up to this what you have recourse when you consider your rights to have been denied and this is where we get to that Denied your right basic move So maybe now that we're here, let's let's like talk through what that looks like 18:41.755 --> 18:49.341 [SPEAKER_01]: When someone or something denies your right, that can happen in this game, the landscape, there is other non-human entities exist. 18:49.521 --> 18:52.723 [SPEAKER_01]: When someone or something denies you, you're right, choose one of the following. 18:52.763 --> 18:53.424 [SPEAKER_01]: This isn't a role. 18:54.124 --> 18:54.725 [SPEAKER_01]: You just choose. 18:55.125 --> 18:58.447 [SPEAKER_01]: And they're an escalating order of intensity. 18:58.908 --> 19:03.831 [SPEAKER_01]: So the first one you might choose is the clear that you accept this injustice with dignity. 19:04.472 --> 19:08.755 [SPEAKER_01]: So you just, okay, you're taking my bounty that I have the right to keep. 19:11.793 --> 19:12.333 [SPEAKER_01]: very well. 19:12.593 --> 19:13.314 [SPEAKER_01]: Go ahead and take it. 19:14.174 --> 19:17.755 [SPEAKER_01]: You have some dignity about it, but you don't, it doesn't like count. 19:18.095 --> 19:31.019 [SPEAKER_00]: What I like about this, and I think the magic of rights is the having a really heavily structured framework for negotiating conflict between players. 19:31.099 --> 19:33.640 [SPEAKER_00]: That's why this exists, right? 19:33.820 --> 19:40.082 [SPEAKER_00]: And so this, this first one is saying essentially like, okay, as a fictional character, 19:41.803 --> 19:45.687 [SPEAKER_00]: But FYI, remember as a player, I do have this right. 19:45.947 --> 19:54.675 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's sort of attitude about it, maybe like leaks into the game to, and out of the game, right, that like there's fun like K-Fade to do there, right? 19:54.875 --> 19:55.976 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a great way to put it. 19:56.036 --> 19:57.838 [SPEAKER_01]: K-Fade is definitely what's happening here. 19:57.938 --> 19:58.358 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, for sure. 19:58.658 --> 20:02.159 [SPEAKER_00]: But it is, it is also just a good logistical reminder, right? 20:02.199 --> 20:16.163 [SPEAKER_00]: Like it is very easy to imagine getting into a situation where it's like, I mean, I've had this happen in games that don't have mechanized rights in this way, where it's like, oh, I forgot you have that special ability that says you can always tell when I'm lying to you or whatever, right? 20:16.243 --> 20:26.346 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, okay, thank you for waving your right in this special ability at this moment, but also like, cool, I'll remember that for next time is sort of included here. 20:28.440 --> 20:36.264 [SPEAKER_01]: The second one is declare that you are a cursed and wronged and bemoan your faint is kind of the opposite I'm not I'm not accepting it with dignity. 20:36.564 --> 20:39.226 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm I'm throwing a fit about it Which you can? 20:40.346 --> 20:42.267 [SPEAKER_01]: Community is a big part of this game. 20:42.307 --> 20:55.874 [SPEAKER_01]: You make you make you create people's you create locations and settings and Holdings and all these stuff so there's people around there's there are witnesses when you're not rights are denied You're not you're not just doing this into the void your character when you choose one of these things 20:56.234 --> 20:58.256 [SPEAKER_01]: people see it, your friends, your enemies, your family. 20:58.836 --> 21:00.357 [SPEAKER_01]: Everyone sees this happen. 21:00.898 --> 21:02.579 [SPEAKER_00]: I was really reminded reading this one. 21:02.839 --> 21:10.745 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm playing Under Hollow Hills right now, a campaign, and there's a move in that whenever you are wounded, shocked, a fronted or dismayed, right? 21:10.785 --> 21:19.372 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, when you are insulted, you can ride the moon and curse in a display of melodramatic agony. 21:20.873 --> 21:35.048 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, there's a way to take this one in the sort of like, no, I'm gonna fucking come kill you Like kind of way that's a little bit more serious, but there's also the just sort of like throw a get tantrum about it version And I like the yeah, and these these are all gonna feed into this. 21:35.068 --> 21:44.137 [SPEAKER_01]: I'll just say it now But the MC is instructed to play their NPCs honestly to follow their instincts and their desires and their emotions 21:44.690 --> 21:47.031 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's not like a dead end here. 21:47.051 --> 21:56.716 [SPEAKER_01]: If I do this and my spouse is there, the MC playing them is going to play them honestly and respond to that and something's gonna come of it. 21:56.996 --> 22:06.301 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's not dead dead end just because I'm not getting a role or points or harm or whatever it's feeding into the character's lives. 22:06.941 --> 22:08.802 [SPEAKER_01]: But well, moving on, there's quite a few here. 22:08.822 --> 22:12.784 [SPEAKER_01]: So third option is declare that you will not rest until your right is vindicated, 22:14.164 --> 22:18.906 [SPEAKER_01]: escalation there that one is seems very intense, but it's it's not the John Wick one. 22:19.026 --> 22:28.730 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, right exactly and it's not even the top The next is declare that your gods are outraged and will express that outrage that gods may or may not have power in the world 22:29.089 --> 22:31.552 [SPEAKER_01]: in this game that varies in various ways. 22:31.672 --> 22:43.227 [SPEAKER_01]: But you can call, there are various moves and powers and things in the game that allow you to call on the outrage of gods or to replicate your gods or to ask them for vengeance and stuff. 22:43.608 --> 22:45.410 [SPEAKER_01]: So this is like seeding that ground. 22:45.771 --> 22:47.353 [SPEAKER_01]: If I'm invoking the gods, then everyone 22:47.773 --> 22:53.821 [SPEAKER_01]: has to be like, okay, well, you're gonna have fodder later for that, and that could matter. 22:54.082 --> 22:58.507 [SPEAKER_01]: The next one is declare that you will for go your right and return for blank. 22:58.548 --> 23:03.955 [SPEAKER_01]: So when that word, like, really negotiating, yeah, okay, I will go this for now, but you owe me something. 23:04.235 --> 23:21.014 [SPEAKER_00]: I want to call something out on this one because I feel like the going from the fourth one to the fifth one here is a really important line where we start to go out of care a little bit right it's like what's bigger than the gods the players right like now here like getting up to the like okay we need to negotiate on a player to play your level 23:21.394 --> 23:23.496 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, and we get to pick with this one. 23:23.516 --> 23:29.760 [SPEAKER_01]: Like it can be 100% characters and if we want, there is a for sure player to play or one. 23:30.040 --> 23:31.682 [SPEAKER_01]: This one you get to kind of just pick. 23:32.322 --> 23:38.446 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I think of the as like three definitely out of character ones to come after this. 23:38.827 --> 23:41.709 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and if they as if they do not grant it, you get to choose again. 23:41.789 --> 23:43.310 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's not a wasted 23:44.120 --> 23:52.464 [SPEAKER_01]: you can negotiate freely, essentially, which is a nice, the next one is declare that they should reconsider or you will play hard against them until satisfied. 23:52.804 --> 23:59.227 [SPEAKER_00]: Again, that's that one's the like the John Wick throw a tantrum one, but on a player level, right? 23:59.387 --> 24:07.631 [SPEAKER_00]: And like maybe still full of K-Fay, but like, you know, I just want you to know John, not like John's character. 24:08.091 --> 24:09.032 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm mad about that. 24:09.212 --> 24:25.374 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and there is a bit of a difference between maybe the starting out blacksmith character saying this and the dragon herald with her mantle and powers fully realize saying that that saying I'm going to come for you. 24:26.163 --> 24:32.987 [SPEAKER_01]: until this is settled like, oh no, that's, that's the Bobby Aga, that's, that's bad news. 24:34.028 --> 24:40.391 [SPEAKER_01]: Next is declare that you for swear this right, black it out in your playbook and replace it with a new one. 24:40.732 --> 24:46.675 [SPEAKER_01]: So you get to pick a new right, which could be like a power, you know, like, 24:47.203 --> 24:50.346 [SPEAKER_01]: some of the rights are like really potent abilities. 24:51.027 --> 24:55.451 [SPEAKER_00]: So you could one of them's like, I'm the secret bastard heir to the throne, right? 24:55.511 --> 25:00.475 [SPEAKER_00]: And you can just be like, well, that that that right, that might still be true, but it doesn't fucking matter anymore. 25:01.325 --> 25:02.266 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 25:02.326 --> 25:06.008 [SPEAKER_01]: The rest Raven has one that's like, when you join in single combat, you win. 25:06.628 --> 25:07.949 [SPEAKER_01]: You hold them at your mercy. 25:08.449 --> 25:09.590 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, what? 25:10.690 --> 25:17.994 [SPEAKER_01]: If you, if you deny my right here, I can just be like, okay fine, I'll take this one and level up right in front of you. 25:18.655 --> 25:24.138 [SPEAKER_01]: And then the final one is declare that you are genuinely opposed, which the language is a little strange. 25:24.178 --> 25:24.958 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it means like, 25:28.180 --> 25:30.903 [SPEAKER_01]: And so we negotiate and now come this satisfies everyone. 25:31.403 --> 25:34.586 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's truly the like player fully player level. 25:35.087 --> 25:37.329 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, hey, I don't like what's happened in here. 25:37.349 --> 25:38.650 [SPEAKER_01]: This right really matters to me. 25:39.131 --> 25:48.840 [SPEAKER_01]: I see what you're doing as your character, but can you let it go this time or can, like, let's just talk about it person to person and figure out how to resolve this situation. 25:49.385 --> 25:55.370 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's the one where you kick it up to how do we make the story progress from here, right? 25:55.410 --> 25:57.412 [SPEAKER_00]: Like I'm like really stepping into writer's stance. 25:57.512 --> 26:03.217 [SPEAKER_00]: Like this is something I feel like happens every third session in most games that I play, right? 26:03.357 --> 26:07.621 [SPEAKER_00]: Of like, yeah, something we need to figure out how to make the story go forward. 26:08.562 --> 26:13.967 [SPEAKER_00]: We know that maybe like XYZ thing needs to happen, but like how are we all going to just be okay with that, right? 26:15.453 --> 26:20.275 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and we have so many other choices here, and they're juicy and interesting. 26:20.715 --> 26:32.179 [SPEAKER_01]: So in a way, it's kind of like priming us, maybe not to go to the map that way every time, and only use that writer's stance, because the other ones are cool and sound exciting to pick. 26:32.259 --> 26:41.902 [SPEAKER_01]: So we can kind of pick and choose, and when we go to that final lever, it's almost a safety tool kind of level and a way where, we're like, okay, no for real, though. 26:42.202 --> 26:43.663 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I need you to listen to me here. 26:45.455 --> 26:50.058 [SPEAKER_00]: I also see it as almost a like invent your own end of list option, right? 26:50.078 --> 26:56.961 [SPEAKER_00]: Like the rest of these in a way feel like we've reached the problem that like that last one is there to solve, right? 26:57.041 --> 27:04.105 [SPEAKER_00]: But like here's seven cool ways to solve that problem before you get to, okay, we have to like make up something that's going to work for our table. 27:04.893 --> 27:06.514 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think you're totally right. 27:06.574 --> 27:12.817 [SPEAKER_01]: And also, I bet there's a custom move thing that happens like all long running apocalypse world games. 27:13.078 --> 27:17.140 [SPEAKER_01]: You end up with the thing that you end up going to the six, fifth, time or whatever. 27:17.160 --> 27:20.182 [SPEAKER_01]: And you're like, ah, we should let's just write a move for that. 27:20.422 --> 27:29.307 [SPEAKER_01]: I can imagine groups of dark ages that play long enough that have a seventh denied your rights thing because you keep negotiating it out of character and they're like, we should just add that. 27:29.767 --> 27:32.448 [SPEAKER_01]: We should add the one about being cursed or whatever. 27:33.709 --> 27:49.454 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, we keep going on that, or it's like the thing we were talking about earlier with the like Dremor's territory move or whatever it is, we're like, oh yeah, other escalation you can go to is like that specific guy who lives in our village and like is the sin you don't know what I'm right, like yeah. 27:49.574 --> 27:53.355 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there was something that only makes sense if you live in our world. 27:53.635 --> 27:57.817 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a cool loop because your rights are also what Apocalypse World calls moves. 27:58.077 --> 28:01.658 [SPEAKER_01]: Some of them are these fictional things have been talking about your landowner, but some of them are like, 28:02.033 --> 28:07.537 [SPEAKER_01]: when you go into battle, you roll weird instead of bolder, whatever, they're like classic apocalypse rule, style moves. 28:07.837 --> 28:15.201 [SPEAKER_01]: And those generally aren't going to be denied in the same way, but they can be, those things can happen. 28:15.502 --> 28:19.024 [SPEAKER_01]: And they're interchangeable, like XP and advancement-wise. 28:19.284 --> 28:23.247 [SPEAKER_01]: So we're all concerned about them in the same kind of way. 28:24.067 --> 28:33.297 [SPEAKER_00]: I was just about to take us back up to, you know, we got through four of the bullet points in the book about rights and the next bullet point is I think it's about that, right? 28:33.357 --> 28:33.737 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, right. 28:33.797 --> 28:34.017 [SPEAKER_01]: Is it? 28:34.658 --> 28:34.978 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 28:35.199 --> 28:38.302 [SPEAKER_00]: It's, uh, so rights work in a few different ways is what it says. 28:38.502 --> 28:44.928 [SPEAKER_00]: Some rights are statements of fictional facts about a character, well, others are mechanical procedures triggered by a particular fictional circumstance. 28:44.948 --> 28:45.209 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, 28:45.930 --> 29:07.032 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think the thing we were saying earlier to were like often the rights that you are choosing on your sheets like start with a truth and then follow it up with a right like you are free land on our that gives you these rights Often the way that that is framed is like here's a truth about you you have the right then to make this move that is related to that 29:08.433 --> 29:11.135 [SPEAKER_00]: You are radiant and stunning when you make an entrance. 29:11.195 --> 29:13.077 [SPEAKER_00]: You have the right to roll bold, right? 29:13.137 --> 29:15.378 [SPEAKER_00]: Then that's from the peasant beauty here. 29:15.779 --> 29:22.384 [SPEAKER_00]: As opposed to you have the right to do respect from bound free noble and royal alike. 29:22.904 --> 29:32.011 [SPEAKER_00]: One of those that you have right to do respect is just sort of a fictional truth about your status in the world and the other one is mechanical, right? 29:32.491 --> 29:35.554 [SPEAKER_00]: it's much less likely that you're going to be denied the mechanical, right? 29:35.594 --> 29:38.117 [SPEAKER_00]: Although the book does leave a provision for that, right? 29:38.157 --> 29:43.822 [SPEAKER_00]: It says you're really not likely to be denied the right to make a move. 29:43.922 --> 29:54.333 [SPEAKER_00]: It can only really happen when an MC is like, I think in this specific case, because of like this character thing from my prep about this person that you don't know about. 29:54.913 --> 30:10.374 [SPEAKER_00]: That means you can't make this move you're actually like the villain that you're talking to right now hates beautiful people or whatever Yeah, like or whatever the thing is and then you you almost get the reward in exchange of like learning why your right has been to not hate you know 30:11.736 --> 30:17.219 [SPEAKER_00]: But I think it is, I think it is right to use that word. 30:18.060 --> 30:21.842 [SPEAKER_00]: Like your mechanical rights are really rarely denied. 30:21.862 --> 30:27.466 [SPEAKER_00]: I think there's a lot less juice to denying the ability to make a cool juicy move. 30:27.486 --> 30:28.166 [SPEAKER_00]: Right? 30:28.206 --> 30:34.550 [SPEAKER_00]: It is a lot of juice to denying that everyone thinks you're beautiful or whatever the right is. 30:35.000 --> 30:40.203 [SPEAKER_01]: and that that last negotiation from the move of denying your rights with the mechanical one. 30:40.504 --> 30:56.674 [SPEAKER_01]: I can see what you just said is being a great negotiation where the MC says like, hmm, at radiant stunning, actually, no, not with this guy, not here right now and you can be like, okay, okay, wait, I really care about this a lot. 30:56.754 --> 31:02.418 [SPEAKER_01]: So let's work this out and one of the way you're working out is tell me what my character experiences, that's different. 31:02.738 --> 31:05.200 [SPEAKER_01]: Small the other times they're walking to a room as being radiant stunning. 31:05.480 --> 31:06.360 [SPEAKER_01]: Why does this guy different? 31:06.581 --> 31:07.781 [SPEAKER_01]: Why doesn't he react the same way? 31:07.821 --> 31:08.442 [SPEAKER_01]: What do I see? 31:08.662 --> 31:15.947 [SPEAKER_01]: And you can get into that like, oh well, you know, I know he's a shape shifting troll his eyes glow in a certain way and whatever. 31:16.187 --> 31:19.869 [SPEAKER_00]: Or like, you can simply say, okay, well, the gods are pissed about it. 31:19.969 --> 31:24.732 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, you can go back to the classic list even on the mechanical level, right? 31:25.133 --> 31:30.917 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's actually what I find most interesting about this framework is that this framework is 31:31.757 --> 31:39.265 [SPEAKER_00]: the same framework the game gives for resolving a fictional dispute and a mechanical dispute. 31:39.646 --> 31:44.911 [SPEAKER_00]: And the fictional dispute is going to work the way we're describing as we were going through the denied your rights move. 31:44.951 --> 31:47.534 [SPEAKER_00]: You might need to escalate past fictional 31:49.015 --> 32:10.555 [SPEAKER_00]: results or like responses to get to, hey, mechanically like we need to like talk this through a little bit more or like as a player like I need this from you to make that happen or whatever But that's also it feels very differently to have your rights denied as a player right like having the beauty of your character denied like is like 32:10.775 --> 32:26.017 [SPEAKER_00]: oh well this is like a big story beat this has to matter like let's negotiate with that looks like it is really different when like my rights as Sam to make this move are like being denied you know it's compelling to me that the same conversational framework 32:26.718 --> 32:30.679 [SPEAKER_00]: works to negotiate both of those circumstances. 32:31.079 --> 32:37.560 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it is also really smart that like the fictional ones are going to happen a lot more often than the mechanical ones. 32:37.880 --> 32:40.621 [SPEAKER_00]: And the fictional ones are going to hurt less than the mechanical ones. 32:40.941 --> 32:48.342 [SPEAKER_00]: And so you are much more likely to get practice in with the framework in like a lower state setting before you are getting up to that higher level 32:52.463 --> 33:04.949 [SPEAKER_00]: example of the bakers and Luke and Andrew making a game that is really cognizant of everyone's consent at the table and just like feelings and stakes in the game. 33:05.169 --> 33:08.591 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it cares a lot about the real people playing the game. 33:08.831 --> 33:09.791 [SPEAKER_01]: And we're talking about this. 33:09.811 --> 33:14.074 [SPEAKER_01]: We're putting a lot of spotlight on this because that's what this episode's about. 33:14.294 --> 33:16.255 [SPEAKER_01]: But I don't want to overstate it too much. 33:16.655 --> 33:17.395 [SPEAKER_01]: The denial of 33:21.457 --> 33:46.650 [SPEAKER_01]: not calm and really like it's it's currency of the game and it's it's what the game drives towards but it's not like every scene is going to involve this thing we're talking about and that's cool like it's normal apocalypse world style play for the most part but it is going to happen and it because it doesn't happen constantly when it does happen it it's flagged it's this moment something unusual is happening the stick's being raised whatever 33:47.010 --> 33:52.771 [SPEAKER_01]: And that also means you don't necessarily have to constantly like be checking and keeping track of this stuff in your head. 33:52.912 --> 33:54.032 [SPEAKER_01]: Wait, what rights do I have? 33:54.072 --> 33:55.092 [SPEAKER_01]: Is this violating one of them? 33:55.112 --> 33:55.792 [SPEAKER_01]: What's competitor? 33:55.952 --> 33:59.653 [SPEAKER_01]: It's more of a special circumstance that we're calling attention to. 33:59.953 --> 34:02.974 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I just want to throw that out there with it's easy to think about. 34:03.014 --> 34:04.955 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, this is the game where your rights are denied all the time. 34:04.975 --> 34:06.755 [SPEAKER_01]: Like we're just we're just talking about it a bunch, but 34:07.115 --> 34:15.779 [SPEAKER_00]: Totally feels like I know McGay doesn't like the term safety tool because of the fact that you can't play a game and remain safe, right? 34:15.799 --> 34:26.824 [SPEAKER_00]: Like the, you know, I agree with that, but yeah, she has this great piece about wanting to rename them like conversation tools that like the goal is not to keep everyone safe because that's impossible. 34:27.144 --> 34:32.647 [SPEAKER_00]: The goal is to make sure that everyone feels that we are reaching down to help recover everyone when 34:33.287 --> 34:50.955 [SPEAKER_00]: They begin to feel unsafe or something bad happens, and it like the strong mechanical framework here is It's so compelling in that regard both because I think it would do a good job of Handling situations that become You know need to become negotiations and maybe he didn't negotiations between players and 34:51.355 --> 34:55.599 [SPEAKER_00]: And also in and of itself feels fun to go through at times, right? 34:55.619 --> 35:06.688 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I can imagine the situation where like, oh, I feel kind of bad about the situation and this framework may be like helps us, but like, you know, we're sort of like doing repairing relationships, but also I can imagine the situation where I'm like, 35:06.948 --> 35:22.791 [SPEAKER_00]: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no 35:31.213 --> 35:32.494 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's a really good way to look at it. 35:32.714 --> 35:46.782 [SPEAKER_01]: I can even imagine another game that would maybe have fundamental baked in so-called writes, like basic writes, that everyone had everyone shared, and you could use this negotiation system. 35:47.322 --> 35:49.984 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's making my brain game design brain go. 35:50.004 --> 35:51.765 [SPEAKER_01]: We don't need to go down that way. 35:52.485 --> 35:52.966 [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot. 35:53.026 --> 35:53.566 [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot there. 35:53.746 --> 35:57.128 [SPEAKER_00]: It's also easy to take this framework and kind of apply it to other games, right? 35:57.148 --> 36:02.212 [SPEAKER_00]: Like I can say, Ian Blades in the dark, I have the right to resist consequences. 36:02.652 --> 36:13.960 [SPEAKER_01]: And that feels, yeah, what occurred to me, as just as you were saying that is, imagine on the sheet, it's like, you're the kind of, you get fundamental right is to be recognized as the most dangerous person in the room. 36:14.180 --> 36:15.321 [SPEAKER_01]: That's implied. 36:15.765 --> 36:32.404 [SPEAKER_01]: in Blazing the Dark, but it's not a right on your sheet that you've filled a little bubble for, and you have by choosing the Cutter Playbook, but this system puts it into that gameable space, where we can talk about it, and you have specific resources when it's not recognized. 36:33.125 --> 36:55.365 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's, that's what I've been saying this whole time about, like, I feel like this is a system that exists in most games that I play subtextually right in exactly the same way that you're talking about and like two that example right like you're the most badass person in the room until you walk into a room with Bajo Bazaar's Rob Boss and now like we have to do a whole denied your rights negotiation about it right exactly. 36:55.665 --> 36:59.026 [SPEAKER_00]: And on a mechanical level, we have to do the same thing with resistance, right? 36:59.046 --> 37:06.348 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, you always have the right to resist, but the GM can say, okay, like, how much of the consequence are you allowed to resist? 37:06.448 --> 37:09.069 [SPEAKER_00]: And like, that's again, like sort of a rights negotiation. 37:09.449 --> 37:16.651 [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, because you can get down to that point of like, well, in the fiction, like, is it disintegrating that of raw electroplasm? 37:16.691 --> 37:18.812 [SPEAKER_01]: You can't resist that. 37:18.932 --> 37:20.272 [SPEAKER_01]: And like, okay, I understand. 37:20.552 --> 37:26.257 [SPEAKER_00]: Or, you know, maybe the way through that is to say, well, okay, I guess I'm incinerated, but the gods are really bad about it, right? 37:26.277 --> 37:29.739 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, my ghost is really coming hard at you now. 37:30.200 --> 37:30.780 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah. 37:40.845 --> 37:43.608 [SPEAKER_01]: presentation that Vincent just posted about the Roots of Apocalypse World. 37:43.768 --> 37:49.914 [SPEAKER_01]: He called out a game that I think may have something in it that connects to the rights in Dark Ages. 37:50.395 --> 37:52.657 [SPEAKER_01]: He doesn't talk about that in the presentation, but it occurred to me. 37:53.257 --> 38:03.087 [SPEAKER_01]: So I went and looked it up to see the game is three 16 carnage monks, the stars by Gregor Hutton, which I played and ran a whole bunch of huge fan of events in a 38:05.520 --> 38:12.883 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a really simple space marine kind of, go kill the bugs for humanity, dumb, war game, apparently. 38:13.303 --> 38:15.904 [SPEAKER_01]: That's not really what it is, but it kind of looks like that. 38:16.825 --> 38:18.946 [SPEAKER_01]: And there's a lot going on in 316. 38:19.386 --> 38:21.287 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a whole other conversation we need to get into. 38:21.947 --> 38:25.668 [SPEAKER_01]: Suffice to say, if you haven't played it, I highly recommend it, and it's very interesting. 38:26.289 --> 38:33.592 [SPEAKER_01]: But one of the factors in the game that touches on this, and I think maybe I'd love to ask me to make about this, but I'm just gonna theorize. 38:35.189 --> 38:49.078 [SPEAKER_01]: that this might be a factor at some war games so like you have different ranks of characters which it handles really well sometimes games struggle to have like PCs of different ranks and status levels but this isn't one of them. 38:49.599 --> 39:02.467 [SPEAKER_01]: But each rank has a set of responsibilities maybe just one or a suite and they give you access to orders that you're supposed to follow and following those orders are not following those orders has consequences in the game 39:03.768 --> 39:07.653 [SPEAKER_01]: and they start very simple when you're a trooper, that's the most low-level rank. 39:08.374 --> 39:11.979 [SPEAKER_01]: You only have one order, you fight for Terra, you've gone out into the stars. 39:12.570 --> 39:17.594 [SPEAKER_01]: every alien species is hostile, according to the doctrine of the Earth. 39:18.135 --> 39:21.938 [SPEAKER_01]: And so the troopers order is order one, kill as many life forms as you can. 39:22.358 --> 39:24.740 [SPEAKER_01]: Bleach horrible, blunt, there it is. 39:25.020 --> 39:26.782 [SPEAKER_01]: Easy peasy trooper order one. 39:27.082 --> 39:31.165 [SPEAKER_01]: When you are a corporal, now, order one is still floating there. 39:31.245 --> 39:32.286 [SPEAKER_01]: It's still an order. 39:32.466 --> 39:36.329 [SPEAKER_01]: But now you get order two, which is maximize the kill ratio of your squad. 39:36.650 --> 39:40.693 [SPEAKER_01]: So bugs killed per trooper, basically, that you're in charge of that now. 39:42.261 --> 39:46.004 [SPEAKER_01]: You get order 3, follow Directives issued by the officers. 39:46.364 --> 39:54.509 [SPEAKER_01]: The first two do not have that order, which is weird and order 4, protect your squad. 39:54.929 --> 40:01.294 [SPEAKER_01]: So the first two don't have an order to protect their fellow teammates or to follow their directives of the officers, the lieutenant's and stuff. 40:01.614 --> 40:01.954 [SPEAKER_01]: Thier up. 40:02.374 --> 40:03.755 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's creating some tension already. 40:04.036 --> 40:07.658 [SPEAKER_01]: Potential leave, PVP stuff like we're talking about with the lift arcade is. 40:08.098 --> 40:10.760 [SPEAKER_01]: And then things get really interesting when you get higher up. 40:11.160 --> 40:21.449 [SPEAKER_01]: The Lieutenant has order 5, ensure that no creatures in an encounter survive, and force discipline on the lower ranks, captain, ensure that no creatures on the planets survive. 40:21.829 --> 40:29.575 [SPEAKER_01]: Deliver mission briefings, the major never retreat, which immediately conflicts with the sergeants orders like protect the lives of your droopers. 40:30.596 --> 40:32.198 [SPEAKER_01]: And then they get weirder from there. 40:32.679 --> 40:41.068 [SPEAKER_01]: There's spoilers when you get up into Brigadier and the stuff behind the scenes of what the Terran military is really doing. 40:41.249 --> 40:43.892 [SPEAKER_01]: But they just start immediately out of the gate. 40:43.912 --> 40:47.476 [SPEAKER_01]: They start conflicting in a similar way to rights I feel where. 40:47.796 --> 40:50.098 [SPEAKER_01]: You have this thing on your sheet like, okay, it's easy. 40:50.118 --> 40:50.578 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a trooper. 40:50.598 --> 40:54.581 [SPEAKER_01]: I got one thing to do and the sergeants over there going, oh, she's okay. 40:54.841 --> 40:58.624 [SPEAKER_01]: Just got these bone heads under my command that are just trying to do this one thing. 40:58.804 --> 41:00.065 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm trying to keep them all alive. 41:00.285 --> 41:04.928 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, corporal over here is like doing math about maximizing ratios or whatever. 41:05.328 --> 41:18.657 [SPEAKER_01]: And it just, it has that same feeling and play of this looks like a simple mechanic and as soon as you start really calling on it, the tension among the PCs and the stakes of situations just immediately get more interesting. 41:18.957 --> 41:26.262 [SPEAKER_01]: So I feel like somewhere there in Vincent and Meg's brains may be 316 play kind of maybe these orders were a factor. 41:26.302 --> 41:26.622 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know. 41:27.002 --> 41:27.843 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just guessing. 41:28.647 --> 41:36.552 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the sentences that are supposed to matter and that contradict each other is undeniable connection there. 41:37.072 --> 41:42.455 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm really compelled by the orders one because it also gives you a sort of direction to pursue as a player. 41:42.615 --> 41:47.358 [SPEAKER_00]: Something that I feel like is always very powerful and that I like having when I'm a player. 41:47.578 --> 41:51.823 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and the characters, 316 is a big influence and trollbait on laser and feelings. 41:52.163 --> 41:59.452 [SPEAKER_01]: Characters in 316 have fighting ability and non-fighting ability and you just roll under that number so it's like having a number and laser and feelings. 41:59.652 --> 42:03.156 [SPEAKER_01]: So you have that on your sheet, you have your number, you have your weapon, and your orders. 42:03.677 --> 42:04.918 [SPEAKER_01]: You're not losing track of them. 42:05.038 --> 42:07.579 [SPEAKER_01]: You're not like, how do these come into play? 42:07.619 --> 42:10.261 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, it's the only other thing on your sheet basically. 42:10.321 --> 42:12.562 [SPEAKER_00]: This is the toy that we're playing in this game. 42:12.742 --> 42:18.886 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and that feeds into there's flashbacks and weaknesses and stuff that make things more juicy, but yeah, there's nowhere for them to hide. 42:19.346 --> 42:21.948 [SPEAKER_01]: The orders are kind of the game, really. 42:22.340 --> 42:24.641 [SPEAKER_00]: Alright, we're kind of winding down the episode here. 42:24.942 --> 42:28.724 [SPEAKER_00]: I want to do the last bullet point from the text just for completion sake. 42:28.864 --> 42:37.509 [SPEAKER_00]: The sixth bullet says, finally, your rights never allow you to bypass the moves or other mechanics, unless they say so explicitly and by name. 42:38.009 --> 42:40.191 [SPEAKER_00]: For example, the right to slay whom you must 42:40.751 --> 42:45.256 [SPEAKER_00]: for the protection of all does not let you, the player, simply declare people are dead. 42:45.756 --> 42:50.061 [SPEAKER_00]: Your characters still need to do the legwork to go out there and inflict the necessary harm, and so on and so forth. 42:50.081 --> 42:51.462 [SPEAKER_00]: In many ways, that's the game. 42:52.303 --> 42:56.948 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's just, I mean, it's something that we've kind of said here, but like, 42:57.328 --> 43:00.270 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's the game is like you have these rights. 43:00.310 --> 43:01.190 [SPEAKER_00]: You're trying to protect them. 43:01.211 --> 43:02.331 [SPEAKER_00]: You're trying to enact them. 43:02.431 --> 43:08.115 [SPEAKER_00]: You are trying to, you know, make your place in the world and protect your place in the world. 43:08.735 --> 43:11.117 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's really well described. 43:11.157 --> 43:15.059 [SPEAKER_00]: I think by rights and I don't know, I'm really excited to play this game. 43:15.099 --> 43:20.483 [SPEAKER_00]: I've got a long list of games to play right now, but like I don't know if this just like really went on it this pretty much is really cool. 43:21.263 --> 43:22.344 [SPEAKER_01]: It is, it is. 43:22.644 --> 43:24.305 [SPEAKER_01]: And that final point is really important. 43:24.465 --> 43:26.207 [SPEAKER_01]: There are some really powerful rights. 43:26.247 --> 43:30.249 [SPEAKER_01]: Like I mentioned, the rest read, Ray Vanir, whatever. 43:30.490 --> 43:33.392 [SPEAKER_01]: You can win a single combat and hold the person at your mercy. 43:33.692 --> 43:38.875 [SPEAKER_01]: No matter what they've chosen, it's like a choosing options back and forth battle move kind of thing. 43:39.436 --> 43:43.659 [SPEAKER_01]: But you do still have to make the battle move, put them at your mercy. 43:43.779 --> 43:44.800 [SPEAKER_01]: You're going to do that. 43:45.200 --> 43:46.901 [SPEAKER_01]: But that means they get to inflict harm. 43:48.865 --> 43:51.787 [SPEAKER_01]: you know, we still have to go through the process. 43:52.267 --> 43:57.531 [SPEAKER_01]: Even though I have this right to hold you at my mercy, I have to survive what you bring initially. 43:57.591 --> 43:59.853 [SPEAKER_01]: And then I can win, but 44:00.508 --> 44:02.929 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't magically sidestep the battle rules. 44:03.009 --> 44:03.969 [SPEAKER_01]: I still have to engage in it. 44:03.989 --> 44:08.811 [SPEAKER_00]: The other thing this is really reminding me of here at the end is reallest sentences, yeah, yeah. 44:09.151 --> 44:13.933 [SPEAKER_00]: Which in a lot of ways are sort of an even stronger version of this, right? 44:13.973 --> 44:17.494 [SPEAKER_00]: We're like, the sentences can still get denied eventually. 44:17.574 --> 44:19.174 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, or contradict each other. 44:19.554 --> 44:27.957 [SPEAKER_00]: But they are before that, like, you don't have to go through the whole fighting procedure when you simply win every fight with a reallest sentence, right? 44:28.017 --> 44:29.518 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, you just do. 44:30.738 --> 44:32.079 [SPEAKER_00]: other sentence contradicts you. 44:32.639 --> 44:37.360 [SPEAKER_00]: That's also a game that I'm interested in playing and interesting to see how this stuff kind of shakes out. 44:38.280 --> 44:38.681 [SPEAKER_01]: Me too. 44:39.041 --> 44:44.622 [SPEAKER_01]: That's really pairing it down to the bare bones of what these are are doing. 44:44.862 --> 44:45.863 [SPEAKER_01]: Sam and people listening. 44:46.623 --> 44:48.624 [SPEAKER_01]: I would highly recommend it if you're interested in like that. 44:48.844 --> 44:51.044 [SPEAKER_01]: That long form really dig in. 44:51.304 --> 44:57.626 [SPEAKER_01]: You're going to create a lot of the setting together and then really mine it for all of that trauma and conflict. 44:58.107 --> 44:58.707 [SPEAKER_01]: It's really really 45:00.293 --> 45:01.234 [SPEAKER_00]: John, thanks so much for being here. 45:01.334 --> 45:02.354 [SPEAKER_00]: It's what a pleasure to have you back. 45:02.835 --> 45:03.695 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, this was great. 45:03.915 --> 45:08.938 [SPEAKER_01]: Happy to do it, and especially, you know, anything Apocalypse Roller-Lated, I'm there. 45:09.999 --> 45:10.339 [SPEAKER_00]: I know. 45:10.439 --> 45:10.679 [SPEAKER_00]: I know. 45:10.999 --> 45:13.321 [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes I've like, do I need other games? 45:13.441 --> 45:14.722 [SPEAKER_00]: Do I just want to play more Apocalypse Roller? 45:14.762 --> 45:16.683 [SPEAKER_00]: I kind of just want to play more Apocalypse Roller. 45:20.217 --> 45:21.819 [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks again to John for being here. 45:21.859 --> 45:28.228 [SPEAKER_00]: You can find him on BlueSky at John Harper, and you can find their work at 17design.com. 45:28.569 --> 45:30.732 [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks to everyone's sports dice explitter on Patreon. 45:30.812 --> 45:34.918 [SPEAKER_00]: As always, you can find me on BlueSky at sam.diceexplitter.com. 45:35.258 --> 45:38.682 [SPEAKER_00]: and you can find my games at sdonalald.its.i.o. 45:39.102 --> 45:46.130 [SPEAKER_00]: Our logo is signed by Sporebury, our theme song is Sunset Bridge by Purely Gray, and our ad music is Lily Pad's bumbleboi Travis Tespar. 45:46.490 --> 45:50.935 [SPEAKER_00]: This episode was edited by Emma Costa, thanks Emma and thanks to you for listening, I'll see ya. 45:53.097 --> 45:55.540 [SPEAKER_00]: Ugh, next to Ace there, next time, I guess next time.