WEBVTT 00:00.853 --> 00:06.705 [SPEAKER_01]: On this week's show, preparing the future with Brian Tracy from Ostonio Incorporated. 00:17.304 --> 00:23.429 [SPEAKER_01]: I write Nathan, what is happening, buddy, feels like forever, but we're recording again. 00:23.449 --> 00:24.790 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, feeling sore. 00:24.830 --> 00:27.012 [SPEAKER_02]: Kind of glad we did not go mountain biking this morning. 00:27.172 --> 00:28.513 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think my body could have handled it. 00:28.573 --> 00:29.714 [SPEAKER_02]: So that was a good call on your end. 00:29.994 --> 00:33.296 [SPEAKER_01]: I did go, but I went for a much mellower. 00:33.316 --> 00:34.477 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I didn't get up early. 00:34.497 --> 00:35.118 [SPEAKER_01]: I'll be honest. 00:35.358 --> 00:38.440 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, after being on the road for two and a half weeks, I didn't want to get out of bed early. 00:38.841 --> 00:41.923 [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, I can roll out, roll on the trail and roll back home. 00:41.943 --> 00:43.164 [SPEAKER_01]: And I did not go hard. 00:43.224 --> 00:44.285 [SPEAKER_01]: It was just to stretch out. 00:44.425 --> 00:44.605 [SPEAKER_01]: So. 00:44.739 --> 00:45.019 [SPEAKER_02]: All right. 00:45.079 --> 00:46.240 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I had a big hike Sunday. 00:46.260 --> 00:47.260 [SPEAKER_02]: You had a ride Monday. 00:47.300 --> 00:47.581 [SPEAKER_02]: We're good. 00:47.781 --> 00:48.381 [SPEAKER_01]: There we go. 00:48.681 --> 00:51.703 [SPEAKER_01]: And Brian, sporting the Notre Dame. 00:51.883 --> 00:52.383 [SPEAKER_01]: I love it. 00:52.903 --> 00:53.804 [SPEAKER_01]: You made your way back. 00:54.124 --> 00:55.385 [SPEAKER_01]: Sounds like you went to the game yesterday. 00:55.485 --> 00:58.566 [SPEAKER_00]: I had a different kind of physical workout yesterday. 00:58.586 --> 01:03.069 [SPEAKER_00]: A long joyful day of tailgating, a long joyful night of watching a football game. 01:03.089 --> 01:04.089 [SPEAKER_00]: Thankfully it worked out. 01:04.770 --> 01:07.891 [SPEAKER_00]: And now back in the flow of things for the workweek. 01:08.232 --> 01:08.832 [SPEAKER_00]: Happy to be here. 01:09.194 --> 01:10.054 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, congrats. 01:10.194 --> 01:13.735 [SPEAKER_01]: It was a nail biter for a bit, but getting the win is the key, right? 01:13.775 --> 01:16.936 [SPEAKER_01]: That at the end of the season, they don't look at how close it was. 01:17.016 --> 01:19.217 [SPEAKER_01]: They look at the wins and the lost column these days. 01:19.857 --> 01:20.258 [SPEAKER_00]: That's right. 01:20.378 --> 01:22.238 [SPEAKER_00]: One nervous breakdown 11 more to go. 01:22.498 --> 01:27.760 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, we will come back as Brian's got more than just a cool connection with Notre Dame in the end. 01:27.840 --> 01:33.582 [SPEAKER_01]: But guys, remember, check us out on youtube.com 4 slash at the contact crew. 01:33.902 --> 01:37.083 [SPEAKER_01]: And remember, if you want to see and meet us in person, 01:37.763 --> 01:40.184 [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to be at Trimble Dimensions this year. 01:40.224 --> 01:47.527 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's right, live on stage with Mark Schwartz and Josh Levy and yours truly. 01:48.287 --> 01:51.288 [SPEAKER_01]: And we're going to be talking about what they're up to and it's going to be a lot of fun. 01:51.308 --> 01:53.469 [SPEAKER_01]: But you'll also be able to catch us while we're there. 01:53.549 --> 01:57.211 [SPEAKER_01]: So come on by and meet the crew, maybe you'll be the next guest. 01:57.591 --> 01:59.252 [SPEAKER_00]: All right, so Brian. 02:00.252 --> 02:05.293 [SPEAKER_01]: Tell us a little bit about you and you got a couple of different balls in the air right now. 02:05.333 --> 02:06.153 [SPEAKER_01]: It's really cool to see. 02:06.173 --> 02:07.554 [SPEAKER_01]: So tell us a little bit about you. 02:07.574 --> 02:09.434 [SPEAKER_01]: How you got here and we'll go from there. 02:09.674 --> 02:15.676 [SPEAKER_00]: My day job has always been and still to this day remains focused very much on operations. 02:15.856 --> 02:19.796 [SPEAKER_00]: My degrees in structural engineering, but I wanted to go where the people were. 02:19.877 --> 02:22.297 [SPEAKER_00]: So I went and worked for General Contractor Keyway. 02:22.337 --> 02:25.958 [SPEAKER_00]: One of the big ones out there and learned so much for them. 02:26.678 --> 02:45.528 [SPEAKER_00]: and then have spent the last 15 plus years doing owners rep construction management, consulting advisory, all of that other stuff thinking about the bigger project where you have to get it set up right for the GC and the trades to come in and do their job and then you have to prepare the owner to manage it correctly. 02:45.968 --> 02:57.131 [SPEAKER_00]: So I learned so much throughout and continue to learn every day about just the in the weeds in the field, how things work and how to deliver better project outcomes. 02:57.151 --> 02:59.751 [SPEAKER_00]: So that remains my profession. 03:00.171 --> 03:09.674 [SPEAKER_00]: But along the way, my own curiosity, my own volunteering for things has led to a couple of other fun offshoots within my career. 03:10.254 --> 03:13.394 [SPEAKER_00]: One of them has been teaching and training. 03:16.055 --> 03:34.942 [SPEAKER_00]: and done enough youth football and little league to back that up, but at every stop in my career, I've had some chances to do training, development, and others, whether it's just the project team I'm with, or the division in the company I'm with, or the whole company, or doing a guest lecture, and it's all been really wonderful. 03:35.082 --> 03:35.182 [SPEAKER_00]: And, 03:35.642 --> 03:39.583 [SPEAKER_00]: Now I can look back and see that it is built incrementally to bigger things. 03:39.623 --> 03:42.344 [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't know each given time when I was saying yes to this and this. 03:42.724 --> 03:45.605 [SPEAKER_00]: It's something I love to do and it's really the biggest part of my job. 03:45.645 --> 03:52.187 [SPEAKER_00]: Now as the director of a CM group within a company to make sure that my team has the resources they need. 03:52.767 --> 04:04.455 [SPEAKER_00]: to succeed for their clients that we're putting them in the right place for their skills and where they want their careers to go, and that we're able to talk them through the issues they're seeing with their projects with their clients and solve them. 04:04.515 --> 04:13.702 [SPEAKER_00]: That's the teaching and training side, and then finally the technology side started because I'm just one of those people who said, yeah, I can probably connect your printer for you. 04:14.383 --> 04:18.646 [SPEAKER_00]: And AJ Waters and I were at the same time, didn't know each other, but we're going through 04:20.607 --> 04:42.520 [SPEAKER_00]: Raise in our hand once or twice and it's suddenly becoming, oh, you're the tech guy here try out this new device here try out this new piece of software that we hate we just bought a company we need to train everyone and how to do it and that followed me through each step of my career as well having a role within the company whether it's just a specialist on tech or the whole company's tech strategy. 04:43.020 --> 04:47.221 [SPEAKER_00]: to be in charge of that, leading best practice teams and writing charters and all that fun stuff. 04:47.441 --> 05:02.426 [SPEAKER_00]: About a decade ago, I was invited to be part of the construction management of association of America, I see in the A's technology subcommittee, and that's been such a joyful part of my career, because I meet amazing people from the best firms in the industry. 05:02.886 --> 05:08.448 [SPEAKER_00]: We can do anything but cheer a file is our joke because of all the different firewalls and protocols, but it's 05:09.048 --> 05:23.375 [SPEAKER_00]: seeing people and the firms they're with and the organization of all shapes and sizes, serving all different types of clients, all the different stages of tech maturity and bringing in partners to learn things. 05:23.415 --> 05:26.177 [SPEAKER_00]: And I've had the pleasure of cheering that for a couple of years. 05:26.737 --> 05:32.560 [SPEAKER_00]: As a part of that, we design conference presentations and white papers and our own podcasts. 05:32.580 --> 05:36.622 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's how I kind of got hooked up with Nathan is our great friend Kurt Maldevon. 05:37.182 --> 05:56.324 [SPEAKER_00]: introduced us and I've convinced Nathan to help the committee and we presented together last year in Nashville to see him a national and Nathan just blew the audience away and we've tried to be our good partner for the ECI summit and bring a lot of attention and cooperation with that. 05:56.865 --> 05:57.025 [SPEAKER_00]: So 05:58.071 --> 06:06.115 [SPEAKER_00]: Throughout my career, I've sort of built the engineering and construction skill set, the teaching and training skill set, and then the technology skill set. 06:06.715 --> 06:12.457 [SPEAKER_00]: And unbeknownst to me, those three things led to a couple of cool things I never would have thought would have happened. 06:12.517 --> 06:19.561 [SPEAKER_00]: The first was Kurt had a relationship with the book publisher, and they approached him about riding a book on construction technology. 06:19.741 --> 06:26.824 [SPEAKER_00]: He talked about it with a few others on the committee, and we were skeptical that we'd be able to produce a written book 06:27.704 --> 06:31.807 [SPEAKER_00]: on technology, that would be relevant by the time it hit the shelves. 06:31.887 --> 06:32.648 [SPEAKER_00]: That was our fear. 06:33.348 --> 06:42.115 [SPEAKER_00]: And we eventually put our heads together and came around to the idea of when we interact with technology, what does that really mean to us? 06:42.175 --> 06:47.900 [SPEAKER_00]: What do we see when we look at successes or failures and frankly, far more failures and successes? 06:48.320 --> 06:51.402 [SPEAKER_00]: There seem to be a lot of root causes that are common. 06:55.265 --> 07:03.130 [SPEAKER_00]: It's the people that are involved, weren't properly prepared, weren't properly resourced. 07:03.651 --> 07:11.416 [SPEAKER_00]: The process that technology solution was put in place to solve, wasn't truly understood, wasn't truly diagnosed. 07:11.616 --> 07:14.718 [SPEAKER_00]: The analogy we like to talk about all the time is you're doing it backwards. 07:15.138 --> 07:17.020 [SPEAKER_00]: You're someone in leadership. 07:17.640 --> 07:19.241 [SPEAKER_00]: gets sold on a great product. 07:19.301 --> 07:22.804 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like watching the pharmaceutical commercial and thinking, should I talk to my doctor about that? 07:22.844 --> 07:25.506 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, if the doctor's never brought it up, probably not. 07:26.186 --> 07:37.695 [SPEAKER_00]: But inevitably, if a firm just gets locked in on this product and they try this product and sometimes you could force it in and make a fit, a lot of times it's not the fit, 07:38.455 --> 07:47.778 [SPEAKER_00]: And that bad taste sticks with a firm for a long time and prevents them from really becoming able to use technology in a good way. 07:48.258 --> 07:57.541 [SPEAKER_00]: So what we try to do with the book was explain what we saw in those failures and put together a playbook for, how do you get one implementation right? 07:57.741 --> 08:04.523 [SPEAKER_00]: How do you flip the normal process and start with understanding the people and the processes involved and coming up with 08:05.203 --> 08:07.764 [SPEAKER_00]: And answer to, how do we make our best thing better? 08:07.984 --> 08:10.345 [SPEAKER_00]: How do we make our worst thing not worse? 08:10.425 --> 08:13.886 [SPEAKER_00]: How do we improve the experiences of our employees? 08:14.846 --> 08:19.508 [SPEAKER_00]: And only when we can answer that, what it would look like, then we say, okay, is there a product? 08:19.588 --> 08:23.089 [SPEAKER_00]: Or is there an application that would help us do that? 08:23.189 --> 08:24.650 [SPEAKER_00]: Then you go look for a product. 08:24.930 --> 08:33.413 [SPEAKER_00]: The book talks about getting that first one right, how to sustain that success, because it's not just like building a project, 08:34.093 --> 08:56.893 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like being an owner, your hand at an asset and you have to take care of it for its entire life cycle, you have to maintain it, you have to make sure that it's still performing in the way that it's been to and then you have to understand when it's no longer doing what it was meant to do and it's time to sunset it or replace it with something else and that's just one and as we talk to 08:57.954 --> 09:05.564 [SPEAKER_00]: people that work within companies, especially people who it's their job in some way shape or form to get their hands around their whole technology strategy. 09:05.604 --> 09:10.511 [SPEAKER_00]: And we asked them how many different pieces of tech are you talking on the light side? 09:10.531 --> 09:11.071 [SPEAKER_00]: It's dozens. 09:12.008 --> 09:14.309 [SPEAKER_00]: And on the heavy side, it's in the triple digits. 09:14.349 --> 09:18.370 [SPEAKER_00]: And so you have to follow that same approach for every single one. 09:18.410 --> 09:24.472 [SPEAKER_00]: If you really want technology to do its job of making your business better, making your people happier. 09:24.912 --> 09:34.495 [SPEAKER_00]: So then the book goes into how do you create the kind of culture where that sustained success is possible because it becomes a critical part 09:35.435 --> 09:37.517 [SPEAKER_00]: of the operations of your business. 09:37.978 --> 09:45.785 [SPEAKER_00]: And so that's the part of the textbook that is the playbook and can be applied to any technology hopefully for as long as we're doing this. 09:46.525 --> 09:54.432 [SPEAKER_00]: And then the book looks at modern-day technology topics and applications through that framework and we tell real stories. 09:55.153 --> 10:03.743 [SPEAKER_00]: from industry, of firms and people, generally using that approach for goods, sometimes not using the approach and learning the consequences. 10:04.423 --> 10:11.211 [SPEAKER_00]: As a way of showcasing, here's how it applies today for digital twins, for data governance, for modular manufacturing. 10:11.391 --> 10:24.559 [SPEAKER_00]: So we spent the better part of four years writing that in our spare time and thankfully that's out now and we just get to talk about how we can best use it and one of the unexpectedly great ways that I've gotten to you was use it was my alma mater. 10:24.579 --> 10:26.200 [SPEAKER_00]: So let's back up 11 years. 10:26.280 --> 10:30.002 [SPEAKER_00]: I was given the opportunity to be an adjunct in the construction management elective. 10:30.522 --> 10:54.892 [SPEAKER_00]: And that was a joy and so much work, and I love doing it, and I kept the relationships with the department, and so a couple years ago they wanted to find ways to better incorporate our magic technology into the civil construction management curriculum, and I said, well, here's a couple of good ideas and happy to send you thoughts from the book, and then three months later, I wasn't asked, I was told, well, you're going to teach a class next spring. 10:55.512 --> 11:01.759 [SPEAKER_00]: about this and give us a synopsis by tomorrow for the register's office and after we went. 11:01.939 --> 11:07.125 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'll stop around me for right now, but I can talk more about that experience as what do they call that course? 11:07.525 --> 11:11.950 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, we took these away out and we just copied the title of the book, which is managing construction technology. 11:12.250 --> 11:13.992 [SPEAKER_00]: The reason why is there are... 11:14.893 --> 11:18.756 [SPEAKER_00]: so many great courses in higher ed that will teach you specific text skills. 11:18.776 --> 11:20.257 [SPEAKER_00]: They're a great blooping courses out there. 11:20.297 --> 11:24.721 [SPEAKER_00]: They're a great VDC courses out there, great robotics and drones, and AI courses out there. 11:25.221 --> 11:41.194 [SPEAKER_00]: What I didn't see in everywhere I've looked and if someone has one great set in my way, because I'll learn from that, what I didn't see was a course on strategy and management, which is if you look across the industry now, most of the top 400 firms and a lot of 11:43.636 --> 11:49.520 [SPEAKER_00]: have put someone into a leadership position for not IT, but technology applications manager. 11:49.540 --> 11:53.262 [SPEAKER_00]: And there's all these titles, right, that there's, I think we came up with 50 different ones. 11:53.282 --> 12:04.509 [SPEAKER_00]: We put in the book that didn't exist 10 years ago, whether it's chief or vice president or head of innovation, transformation, digital delivery, all that sort of stuff firms have these people in place. 12:04.910 --> 12:05.810 [SPEAKER_00]: They don't have a playbook. 12:06.170 --> 12:07.892 [SPEAKER_00]: They don't have a predecessor to look at. 12:08.252 --> 12:11.314 [SPEAKER_00]: They don't have some on mentor who's been in the industry 30 years doing this. 12:11.814 --> 12:13.515 [SPEAKER_00]: they're fingering it out on the fly. 12:13.915 --> 12:26.519 [SPEAKER_00]: So the book was partly for them, and the book is partly for people who are coming up and learning the industry right now in college to learn how to do the leadership, how to do the management and the strategy of it. 12:26.619 --> 12:37.142 [SPEAKER_00]: And so the discussion that we came to with Notre Dame was, what a cool course this is we are offer, but no one else is doing, and teach people to think from that sort of framework and then go into 12:39.323 --> 12:46.411 [SPEAKER_00]: firms and organizations and have that skill set, have that knowledge, have that's playbook that they could evangel. 12:46.571 --> 13:00.006 [SPEAKER_01]: Just to be able to think about it and to have the framework to your point, the book in a lot of the stories you tell, probably, I don't say they won't age well, but they won't be whatever it is, but the principle a lot of books I've read over time, 13:00.647 --> 13:18.245 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, as sure the story they're talking about like how big things get done talks about stories of building structures that now we look at very differently, but the problems they encountered that it's talking about the fundamentals they're still there they still had home and you'll be sitting there thinking about oh we should be applying that to. 13:18.886 --> 13:19.506 [SPEAKER_01]: Gen AI. 13:19.526 --> 13:21.867 [SPEAKER_01]: We should be applying that to this today. 13:21.927 --> 13:33.391 [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's always the fundamentals give somebody a no one is teaching that exact piece because there's a reason technology fails on a pretty regular basis. 13:33.431 --> 13:35.612 [SPEAKER_01]: And I want to go outside of construction. 13:36.392 --> 13:40.075 [SPEAKER_01]: like this is what's interesting is it fails on a regular basis everywhere. 13:40.655 --> 13:53.844 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean how big things get done talks about 98% of all technology projects go over budget but they blow their schedule out of the water and if you start digging in it's even worse. 13:54.104 --> 13:58.387 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just because we don't focus on people aren't ready. 13:58.627 --> 14:01.589 [SPEAKER_01]: Process is not fully vetted and we're enamored. 14:02.149 --> 14:03.030 [SPEAKER_01]: with the technology. 14:03.090 --> 14:06.213 [SPEAKER_01]: The shiny tool will solve my problems. 14:06.373 --> 14:07.614 [SPEAKER_01]: Nathan, I'll go back to the waking. 14:07.934 --> 14:23.829 [SPEAKER_01]: I was in the bike shop today and I was talking about grinding up the hill and they were like, well, you know, these new ones with, you know, this amount of gears and this shock that automatically locks it and I'm like, or maybe I should just, you know, train a little more. 14:23.909 --> 14:25.130 [SPEAKER_01]: Work harder. 14:25.150 --> 14:28.513 [SPEAKER_01]: Work a little harder and then my great bike that doesn't need to be replaced. 14:29.033 --> 14:30.695 [SPEAKER_01]: So the technology can't solve it. 14:30.995 --> 14:43.628 [SPEAKER_00]: I'd love for any other institution whether you're a company or a college or anything to just steal this course because the reason we wrote the book the reason I do the community the reason we do the presentation is this helps us all there's 14:43.868 --> 14:49.690 [SPEAKER_00]: such a labor shortage, there's such demand for people in the industry that we don't have to be protected. 14:49.831 --> 14:51.291 [SPEAKER_00]: I want everyone better at this. 14:51.751 --> 14:56.013 [SPEAKER_00]: I want all of the partners on my projects to already be native and fluent on these things. 14:56.413 --> 15:02.576 [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't have to teach them every project, how to do some of these great technologies that I know will improve the outcome. 15:02.596 --> 15:06.698 [SPEAKER_00]: So anyone who wants this, I'm happy to coach you and as I like to do and give it away. 15:07.178 --> 15:08.418 [SPEAKER_00]: And I love what you say about 15:12.640 --> 15:19.442 [SPEAKER_00]: don't aren't as applicable, I rounded out the course with other really smart books, one of them the innovators dilemma. 15:20.022 --> 15:37.486 [SPEAKER_00]: And the stories they call, because it was written in the 90s, right, about the floppy disk drive, I still, I ate them up and I was making notes in the margins were like, oh, it's just like this right now, and here's the applicability checklist manifesto, where they talk about just the transition into hydraulic elevators and the pre-fight checklist, 15:42.347 --> 15:42.707 [SPEAKER_00]: You said. 15:42.847 --> 16:05.942 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think one thing we skipped over for listeners and of course we'll put the link to the book in the show notes, but the subtitle to the book is people process and product Jeff what we're you know continually preaching right and I think that's kind of the the beauty the irony whatever all this that so often as a trade as a GC as an architect as whoever you feel like you're the only one that thinks this way and feels this way and that all the others are the enemies right and at this kind of message that 16:06.382 --> 16:19.216 [SPEAKER_02]: Regardless of what perspective you're coming from, there are, you know, still, unfortunately, a growing minority of folks that have this belief that, yeah, it's people first is understanding what are those, those standard processes and then how are we going to speak to each other? 16:19.276 --> 16:23.861 [SPEAKER_02]: Taxonomy is kind of this term that keeps coming up that starts with the stakeholder perspective that you come from. 16:24.061 --> 16:28.906 [SPEAKER_02]: And so I just, I love that as I learned more about CMA, that tech committee, whatever buddy was saying, it's like, yeah, 16:29.006 --> 16:32.787 [SPEAKER_02]: guys, you're saying the exact same thing as all the GCs, is all the trade. 16:33.067 --> 16:36.808 [SPEAKER_02]: We're all seeing them within our little silos and so how do we get everybody to say it together? 16:36.848 --> 16:39.789 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think starting at the universities is a great way to go. 16:40.029 --> 16:42.169 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, none of us are authors by default. 16:42.189 --> 16:45.330 [SPEAKER_00]: We're just five people who love tack and working in AEC. 16:45.410 --> 16:48.351 [SPEAKER_00]: But at some point, we said we need a consistent voice for the book. 16:48.371 --> 16:49.831 [SPEAKER_00]: So it doesn't sound so scattered. 16:49.971 --> 16:53.512 [SPEAKER_00]: And we settled on that people process product framework. 16:53.532 --> 16:55.472 [SPEAKER_00]: And then we thought that sounds like a pretty cool subtitle. 16:55.572 --> 16:56.572 [SPEAKER_00]: Look how smart we are. 16:56.672 --> 16:57.773 [SPEAKER_00]: And then we go research, 16:58.913 --> 17:00.174 [SPEAKER_00]: around for a really long time. 17:00.214 --> 17:02.476 [SPEAKER_00]: We just accidentally fell into the same idea. 17:02.716 --> 17:04.878 [SPEAKER_02]: But I think it's all in the stories of how you are addressing it. 17:04.898 --> 17:07.140 [SPEAKER_02]: And so I know you put me on this spot. 17:07.160 --> 17:11.163 [SPEAKER_02]: I was very fortunate to be one of the, I guess, the guest lectures in your Notre Dame class. 17:11.543 --> 17:17.227 [SPEAKER_02]: You can tell me how many of these questions were from you or from the students, but they're really good, really tough questions. 17:17.247 --> 17:21.231 [SPEAKER_02]: I'll start in our data interoperability and industry structure category here. 17:21.871 --> 17:24.513 [SPEAKER_02]: and and flip this on you as to in your CM role. 17:24.853 --> 17:31.238 [SPEAKER_02]: So what is the biggest barrier preventing CMs or owners from adopting shared data standards across cancer? 17:31.258 --> 17:36.142 [SPEAKER_02]: Because I think a lot of GCs and trades will go, oh, well, the first thing you can control everything, right? 17:36.262 --> 17:37.703 [SPEAKER_02]: But maybe that's not the third of the case. 17:37.723 --> 17:40.285 [SPEAKER_02]: I guess, yeah, help us understand how your have Liz. 17:40.545 --> 17:43.066 [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't want to spend a whole lecture's work on this. 17:43.446 --> 17:43.666 [SPEAKER_02]: No. 17:43.786 --> 17:45.407 [SPEAKER_00]: A triangle would sound by. 17:45.467 --> 17:49.509 [SPEAKER_00]: And by the way, thank you for the willingness to be a guest speaker in the class. 17:49.529 --> 17:51.009 [SPEAKER_00]: That was my secret to the classes. 17:51.029 --> 17:52.690 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, they'll get bored with me very quickly. 17:53.130 --> 17:55.291 [SPEAKER_00]: Let me bring in as many other smart people as I can. 17:55.351 --> 17:56.812 [SPEAKER_00]: And you were right at the top of the list. 17:56.872 --> 17:58.792 [SPEAKER_00]: And they were blown away with what you have to say. 17:58.812 --> 18:04.475 [SPEAKER_00]: And they clearly got why you do what you do when they learned about the 18:05.355 --> 18:16.078 [SPEAKER_00]: way the industry is broken in its approach to this and they came away full believers in CDX and the CPC and that's just the way you're trying to make the industry better. 18:16.198 --> 18:19.858 [SPEAKER_00]: This is not a fair question because you can answer this somewhere, Twitter to meet me did. 18:19.898 --> 18:23.839 [SPEAKER_02]: No, but as a CM, as a CM, because I think as a GC, I would answer differently. 18:23.919 --> 18:25.400 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, as a CM, how would you answer that? 18:26.000 --> 18:30.361 [SPEAKER_00]: As a CM, where most of the time we're hired by the owner, right? 18:30.501 --> 18:31.381 [SPEAKER_00]: We're paid by the 18:35.582 --> 18:45.805 [SPEAKER_00]: to make sure the project is completed successfully, even if that means giving tough love to the owner, because that is what's needed for the good of the project. 18:45.825 --> 18:49.826 [SPEAKER_00]: And then we have to, you know, like overcompensating, give extra tough love to the other players. 18:50.326 --> 18:52.107 [SPEAKER_00]: Just so they don't feel like we're ganging up on them. 18:52.447 --> 19:02.390 [SPEAKER_00]: Every player in the process thinks that we love to advance technology, but it's not our role to do so. 19:03.288 --> 19:08.793 [SPEAKER_00]: the owner thinks we don't have, we're not building it, we don't have any expertise in this. 19:08.813 --> 19:11.355 [SPEAKER_00]: How could we possibly influence that? 19:11.495 --> 19:17.580 [SPEAKER_00]: And to them, I would say very easily, because you as the owner set the conditions for what you are buying. 19:17.700 --> 19:21.403 [SPEAKER_00]: You're telling the marketplace, I'm handing out money, and I want this. 19:22.063 --> 19:24.785 [SPEAKER_00]: And if you say I want this delivered in this way, 19:25.586 --> 19:34.157 [SPEAKER_00]: The market will give it that we deliver sustainable buildings all the time now because that's when owners expect we could deliver data rich. 19:35.057 --> 19:42.719 [SPEAKER_00]: fully correct digital twins at the end of a project, if that's what the market started demanding, the market would respond to that. 19:43.099 --> 19:49.381 [SPEAKER_00]: And so that I say to the owners, it's almost nothing to just chain two sentences in your contract or your specification. 19:49.421 --> 20:02.385 [SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes we do sneak that in with like digital twins or 360 video or just like very simply it wrote with the CMA tech committee, the project photo documentation spec because most people are still using 20:03.225 --> 20:28.563 [SPEAKER_00]: Professional photographer do an eight and a half by 11 glossy every other week and nobody reads it so we just switched it with 360 photos on a platform of the owner's choice the four major milestones and it didn't cost anything more in the bid process and then the GC gets around to reading the spec and I like how do I do this and we say here's a $500 answer to that question and it's going to make everyone's lives better even your own. 20:28.803 --> 20:29.424 [SPEAKER_00]: That's the owner. 20:29.464 --> 20:40.373 [SPEAKER_00]: The GC has an incredible opportunity because they usually see the most return on it and even the trades, because the other ones who are really self-performing the work. 20:40.453 --> 20:54.445 [SPEAKER_00]: The more efficient they can be, the less rework, the better sequencing, the fewer delay claim arguments, the safer the workers are like all these things I could talk about on and on and on and then 20:56.967 --> 21:17.122 [SPEAKER_00]: having a good flow, having to use less contingency, finding better trusted partners, being more efficient with the theme yourself performing, all those things improve your bottom line, improve your marketability, improve your client relations, a lot of GCs are just as intent of, we just can't afford to, right, where our margins are so tight, our operations are 21:17.842 --> 21:20.703 [SPEAKER_00]: So baked in, we don't want to disrupt our good one. 21:20.763 --> 21:24.024 [SPEAKER_00]: And there's a good conversation to that of try at once. 21:24.484 --> 21:38.870 [SPEAKER_00]: If you follow the playbook that we talk about, there are good ways to find low risk pilots or opportunities because you know you've picked a high potential solution and you can put a really good team on that and just evaluate. 21:38.890 --> 21:40.950 [SPEAKER_00]: You're not reinventing what you do. 21:41.010 --> 21:41.771 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think the biggest 21:42.631 --> 21:46.195 [SPEAKER_00]: fear people have is that it changes something and it might be worse. 21:46.375 --> 21:51.821 [SPEAKER_00]: And if you can approach it and like, we're skipping a lot of chapters here, right? 21:52.061 --> 21:54.443 [SPEAKER_00]: But about how you engage people up and down the chain. 21:54.884 --> 22:02.792 [SPEAKER_00]: But fundamentally, if you approach it from a we just want to improve something about the way you do things every day, you get people to be more open to that sort of thing. 22:02.892 --> 22:10.220 [SPEAKER_00]: So I can give similar examples for vendors, for architects and engineers, for their party providers, for public agencies. 22:10.240 --> 22:19.410 [SPEAKER_00]: There's not a town out there that wants their permitting to be slow and inefficient, but they feel like they are doing it the best way that they can, even if it's inefficient. 22:19.510 --> 22:27.255 [SPEAKER_02]: But would you say that the owner's highest priority right now just generalizing would be for their contractors now there's to be as efficient as possible? 22:27.455 --> 22:34.679 [SPEAKER_02]: That's more important than operations data or owner hand over data, you know, some of that other digital twin stuff I would assume. 22:34.859 --> 22:36.520 [SPEAKER_02]: But I don't know, is that still the case? 22:37.060 --> 22:38.321 [SPEAKER_02]: Or is that changing now with AI? 22:38.981 --> 22:40.262 [SPEAKER_00]: That's a provoking question. 22:40.462 --> 22:41.923 [SPEAKER_00]: Contractors want to be efficient. 22:41.963 --> 22:44.385 [SPEAKER_00]: More than owners want contractors to be more efficient. 22:44.405 --> 22:44.765 [SPEAKER_02]: Right? 22:44.945 --> 22:45.385 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 22:45.505 --> 22:46.446 [SPEAKER_02]: What owners want? 22:46.566 --> 22:46.826 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 22:47.376 --> 22:51.818 [SPEAKER_00]: rare is the owner that has the luxury of an unlimited marketplace. 22:53.138 --> 22:59.861 [SPEAKER_00]: And a lot of the time when we have a conversation with the owner, it's there's the what you can do and what you should do. 23:00.441 --> 23:03.082 [SPEAKER_00]: Conversation of we wrote you really strong contract. 23:03.322 --> 23:12.346 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's try and think of ourselves as a partner with how we want to administer this contract, administer the relationship because just like you can push people 23:15.747 --> 23:17.008 [SPEAKER_00]: You lose that ability forever. 23:17.508 --> 23:20.910 [SPEAKER_00]: The same is true with relationships between owners and contractors. 23:20.930 --> 23:26.633 [SPEAKER_00]: You can really ride a contractor and not be a very partner-focused owner and get one project done. 23:26.813 --> 23:28.354 [SPEAKER_00]: And then the next project they don't bid. 23:29.094 --> 23:43.962 [SPEAKER_00]: And as that continues, and one of the best presentations I ever saw at CMAA was by City and County, San Francisco whose leadership looked at why their projects cost so much more than the market average and why some of the best contractors in the area didn't 23:44.702 --> 23:45.262 [SPEAKER_00]: work for them. 23:45.983 --> 23:47.303 [SPEAKER_00]: And they said, we're the problem. 23:47.523 --> 23:50.845 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's go interview the market place and say, why do you charge more? 23:50.945 --> 23:52.585 [SPEAKER_00]: Why do you not bid us at all? 23:52.985 --> 24:03.550 [SPEAKER_00]: And they got great feedback about why as an organization, they're they if historically not treated contractors well, and they created a brand new approach. 24:04.453 --> 24:14.979 [SPEAKER_00]: to partnering and to project management and it paid for itself 10 times silver within the first year because of the better project outcomes and the better bid results that they got. 24:15.139 --> 24:22.943 [SPEAKER_00]: Owners want contractors to be happy, owners want contractors to be profitable, be good owners want the good contractors to keep coming back. 24:23.353 --> 24:25.574 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you hit the law of diminishing returns, right? 24:25.594 --> 24:30.795 [SPEAKER_01]: You can keep riding them for so long and then you're gonna be the one who loses that. 24:31.055 --> 24:37.396 [SPEAKER_01]: I want you to take a step back even further because I'm listening to you to talk about this and you're talking about the data and you're talking about what owners want. 24:38.657 --> 24:45.058 [SPEAKER_01]: What can you give me the elevator pitch on what is construction management? 24:45.358 --> 24:52.560 [SPEAKER_01]: Because I think it's very misunderstood in the industry and it changes depending on where you are in the world, 24:53.700 --> 24:59.725 [SPEAKER_01]: What's the best way Brian you can explain it so people understand what would you say to more than a people person? 25:00.206 --> 25:10.355 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a great question and what a fun opportunity to promote this thing I didn't know existed When I was getting my degree in structural engineering I knew I love construction. 25:10.415 --> 25:11.115 [SPEAKER_00]: I did as that well. 25:11.175 --> 25:13.157 [SPEAKER_00]: My only option is to go work for a G.C. 25:13.337 --> 25:16.300 [SPEAKER_00]: And that was lovely But it was working for that G.C. 25:16.540 --> 25:19.823 [SPEAKER_00]: and being on a couple of projects that were problem projects 25:20.383 --> 25:43.322 [SPEAKER_00]: not because of anything the owner did or the contractor did because of the way they were designed from the very start that there was no way this was ever going to work out right the budget wasn't correct or the the schedule wasn't correct or the program what the owner just actually didn't ask for what they really wanted and it was that experience that maybe say to myself if I ever get a chance to work 25:44.142 --> 25:55.519 [SPEAKER_00]: earlier in a project process or be a part of the bigger picture and to help use the expertise I've gained as a builder to work with owners from the start and listen. 25:56.560 --> 26:00.622 [SPEAKER_00]: to what they think they need and help them design a better outcome. 26:00.702 --> 26:01.422 [SPEAKER_00]: I'd love to do that. 26:01.462 --> 26:05.884 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's what my time in this part of the industry has let me do. 26:06.244 --> 26:13.348 [SPEAKER_00]: So you'll hear a lot of different functions that people within construction management firms might do. 26:13.748 --> 26:22.052 [SPEAKER_00]: They might be inserted into an existing construction project to just eyes and ears, observant reports, 26:22.592 --> 26:25.815 [SPEAKER_00]: just keep the trains on time, fill out these things. 26:26.075 --> 26:28.457 [SPEAKER_00]: That's fine, that's a good service to perform. 26:29.057 --> 26:40.306 [SPEAKER_00]: They might be asked to be an augmentation of staff on an owner side where we lost a person, we need to plug someone in for a while, or we've got this big thing. 26:40.926 --> 26:45.290 [SPEAKER_00]: And it doesn't make sense for us to scale up and scale down for this big thing. 26:45.690 --> 27:01.885 [SPEAKER_00]: Can we bring in a team to sit next to us, who knows our process, knows our culture, sort of be our owner's representation, or you can have that at a portfolio level where you're doing program management in all of these instances. 27:02.453 --> 27:18.763 [SPEAKER_00]: you're acting as an advisor in a consulting role, hopefully in an educational consulting role, to the owner, and you're bringing the expertise in the perspective of the other players on the project. 27:18.803 --> 27:30.731 [SPEAKER_00]: So great CM firms or great CMs can understand those perspectives of everyone else in the project to make sure that their voices, that their wants and needs and wishes, 27:31.631 --> 27:41.576 [SPEAKER_00]: are considered when those people are not in the room, when a project is just sort of a spark and its infancy and being thought of. 27:42.176 --> 27:53.502 [SPEAKER_00]: So that as an owner eventually evolves that into, now here's an actual project for the market to respond to, and we're going to bring this team together, you are bringing the right team together. 27:54.894 --> 28:03.280 [SPEAKER_00]: in the right way so that their contractual motivations, but them behave the way that they tell you in the interview that they want to behave. 28:04.080 --> 28:11.645 [SPEAKER_00]: And that at the end of the day, they're delivering this product that the owner can go step into and say, this is perfect. 28:11.685 --> 28:12.606 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, this isn't what we need 28:13.987 --> 28:23.172 [SPEAKER_01]: You did say one thing there that I'm trying to separate and just kind of understand because you said, kind of act as owner's reps, do you see your guys' augmenting owner's reps? 28:23.352 --> 28:27.935 [SPEAKER_01]: Where does the owner's rep thing fit or is it something you do sometimes and something you don't do? 28:28.335 --> 28:29.076 [SPEAKER_01]: How does that fit? 28:29.096 --> 28:33.438 [SPEAKER_01]: Because we hear that owner's rep thing once in a while and we don't hear it as just a CM. 28:33.838 --> 28:39.762 [SPEAKER_01]: I hear the CM being the owner's rep as well, but so explain that in your words there. 28:44.300 --> 29:11.347 [SPEAKER_00]: I've needed to bring as a CM is adaptability or flexibility and I said that we're listened deliberately because the secret to success for the firms I've worked with, the teams I've been a part of, the really amazing colleagues I have, is you have this giant toolbox, but you don't know which tool you need to pull out until you actually understand what the need is and it's creating a relationship of trust. 29:12.245 --> 29:19.686 [SPEAKER_00]: with a client, whether it's a large agency or a single nonprofit with, they need help and they don't even know what kind of help they need. 29:20.386 --> 29:22.447 [SPEAKER_00]: And to just really think about what their needs are. 29:23.227 --> 29:27.908 [SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes that is just, you need someone to come by. 29:28.388 --> 29:36.889 [SPEAKER_00]: Every cell often and just check on this, or you need someone to fulfill this very specific role in the project where your team doesn't have that expertise. 29:37.329 --> 29:40.710 [SPEAKER_00]: But sometimes it is truly like you just need to hand the keys 29:41.970 --> 29:52.036 [SPEAKER_00]: and pay the bills for the next couple of years and then come back when it's ready when you're ready to be trained on it because that's what's right for you at that time. 29:52.656 --> 30:00.721 [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't have a matrix or a hard and fast set of rules as to when you go. 30:07.305 --> 30:15.530 [SPEAKER_00]: because it really, to me, the best experiences and the happiest clients come from not coming in with the predisposed point of view. 30:15.950 --> 30:19.752 [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, thanks for the opportunity to discuss what you need. 30:20.372 --> 30:22.434 [SPEAKER_00]: And let me hear that. 30:23.134 --> 30:28.735 [SPEAKER_00]: talk to other smart people that I trust and come back with some ideas that we think could get you what you need. 30:29.095 --> 30:51.840 [SPEAKER_00]: And so like the reductive way of explaining all this is we're not designing it, we're not building it, we're not managing it, but we're there to executive produce the whole thing of ensuring that the right players who need to do the next thing are ready and are the correct people and are there and then they do it properly and we verify that and then we hand it off to the 30:52.625 --> 31:16.776 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it makes a lot of sense as to why you do this gig because it's having an understanding of the multiple different perspectives and then having a perception of that and how it's going to impact an overall job and understanding that, you know, an electrical contractor is focused on this and what does that mean to the owner is like for it to go through 31:20.538 --> 31:38.974 [SPEAKER_01]: you're sitting there and saying like no we need to get this to them so that they can do fabrication, they can do material ordering, they can do those things and it gets to you and you can explain that to the owners that hey why are we tapping into material purchasing already or I'm using there's so many things that they cannot understand. 31:39.074 --> 31:45.679 [SPEAKER_01]: I'd hazard a guess that it goes together with why you have that focus on technology in the way you do because 31:47.040 --> 31:57.646 [SPEAKER_01]: Some groups need somebody that help everything, you know, you need to train the people, get the people right, you need to fix and understand the process and then you need to help go pick the technology. 31:58.066 --> 32:05.050 [SPEAKER_01]: Some people have some of that figured out like these, they really do kind of mimic each other in certain ways. 32:05.090 --> 32:09.853 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's not surprising to me that both those things are in your wheelhouse and things that come. 32:10.873 --> 32:12.655 [SPEAKER_01]: honestly to to how you execute. 32:13.336 --> 32:25.309 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean again Brian you're more in this but my understanding is an outside is that really if the owners uh well like a federal project or something like that they wouldn't probably when you use the term owners wrap like they use the term CM because it's a federal job. 32:25.729 --> 32:32.056 [SPEAKER_02]: Private owners you know it may depend someone may call it a CM so make call it an owners wrap but the role to me 32:32.857 --> 32:42.326 [SPEAKER_02]: is truly representing the owner's interest, whereas a GC that's not on a very progressive design build whatever job, because that's where it gets really gray. 32:42.786 --> 32:53.436 [SPEAKER_02]: But in a more traditional, you know, federal type job, a GC's got to protect their interests of what they bid on and the trades that they have contracted with, and it is, you know, contractually a battle. 32:53.516 --> 32:55.858 [SPEAKER_02]: That's how we set it up for, you know, since the beginning. 32:56.018 --> 32:57.319 [SPEAKER_02]: And so yeah, I think it's interesting, right? 32:57.339 --> 32:59.179 [SPEAKER_02]: Because you're on the other side of the fence, right, Brian? 32:59.420 --> 33:07.063 [SPEAKER_00]: So you're spot on that trying to get the federal government to change the nomenclature these for anything is to change what you can't expect what you can't. 33:07.383 --> 33:09.064 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's where it comes to the adaptability. 33:09.104 --> 33:18.268 [SPEAKER_00]: You call it this and that not all that different from anything in the industry where if you go contractor to contractor owner to owner, city to city, the same thing can be called different things. 33:18.388 --> 33:19.709 [SPEAKER_00]: If I can understand, 33:20.389 --> 33:34.955 [SPEAKER_00]: The general process of things, I'll have to learn a new term for this thing, but I know where it fits into the overall picture, and I really think this experience has made me believe in the value of being a generalist. 33:35.735 --> 33:45.423 [SPEAKER_00]: and that a generalist can be a very important part of a project because on any job, I don't know as much about electrical as the electrical trades. 33:45.443 --> 33:48.126 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know as much about concrete as the concrete. 33:48.146 --> 33:56.213 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know as much about commissioning as the missing agent, or how to run the facility as the owner, but I am that interoperability agent. 33:56.893 --> 34:14.264 [SPEAKER_00]: between all those and it's a fun challenge to have general understanding of where the project is and to be able to communicate that in the right way to a trade worker and inspector a mayor. 34:15.247 --> 34:19.153 [SPEAKER_00]: on the same day and make sure that they all understand. 34:19.473 --> 34:28.347 [SPEAKER_00]: And Jeff, to your point, it does absolutely help to foster better, I don't know if them but these are the right word, but understanding and appreciation of 34:29.327 --> 34:42.731 [SPEAKER_00]: where the end of the line of decisions go, because it is very easy in a detached, the ownership meeting or office to look at a schedule and say, well, let's just do this. 34:43.051 --> 34:47.272 [SPEAKER_00]: And then you have to say, those are, that's a line on your chart, those are humans. 34:47.952 --> 34:49.713 [SPEAKER_00]: and they won't be able to do that. 34:49.773 --> 34:58.956 [SPEAKER_00]: That's a subcontractor that can't just do that because this job is one of 40 for them and they've got to be giving that perspective, that's a great idea in theory. 34:59.016 --> 35:01.717 [SPEAKER_00]: Here's why it would probably wouldn't work if we wouldn't execute it. 35:01.737 --> 35:02.817 [SPEAKER_00]: It's what's the next best idea. 35:03.077 --> 35:21.512 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and that's where it gets those decisions got made before there was people like you helping make that decision and that became adversarial and it's well it was like no it's because we don't understand it's not our expertise right that like you said you're just enough of a generalist you don't get down to the exact how the electrical does it. 35:22.052 --> 35:38.045 [SPEAKER_01]: But you know the constraints that they have in order to deliver whether it be hey listen you can't mobilize that crew in that kind of time because they've got all these other jobs or maybe you even understand that you know we've got other trades that have to hit their first. 35:38.705 --> 35:57.364 [SPEAKER_01]: And if you tweak that lever, then we have to tweak these other levers and none of that's going to come together and a generalist needs that, you know, that's what the generalists are great at is understanding the entire view and those owners have completely separate business such a run to be experts in right they're not. 35:57.945 --> 36:01.628 [SPEAKER_01]: There's very few of them that want to really be an expert in building anything. 36:01.668 --> 36:03.949 [SPEAKER_01]: They want to be experts in what it is that they do. 36:04.370 --> 36:09.814 [SPEAKER_01]: So they need an expert in what in construction that represents them too. 36:09.854 --> 36:12.515 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's something that's key and you sort of hit this. 36:12.536 --> 36:22.403 [SPEAKER_01]: This is what I want the industry to understand is you went back and said, you know, during this book, you found directors of innovation, you found a digital delivery people, you found BIM and VDC folk. 36:22.503 --> 36:25.125 [SPEAKER_01]: Like we're doing the industry of the service by not 36:25.905 --> 36:42.420 [SPEAKER_01]: making that part of an operational technology group in each of those areas that understands their business and how projects are delivered so that those teams across the project teams can work better together to fit in the same constraints and have the same understanding. 36:42.460 --> 36:43.581 [SPEAKER_01]: We can't expect 36:44.422 --> 36:58.174 [SPEAKER_01]: a CM to understand the owner of a CM and running a CM to understand every new dang technology that comes out and how it might impact data structure, data governance, project delivery, etc. 36:58.234 --> 36:59.255 [SPEAKER_01]: We need people 36:59.815 --> 37:10.158 [SPEAKER_01]: who work on that in our organizations and understand how that fits and then when you you guys say, listen, we need digital documentation and, you know, we're going to 360 before every major release. 37:10.578 --> 37:15.339 [SPEAKER_01]: I have a delivery team and operational technology team that can look at that and go, we actually use this. 37:15.419 --> 37:16.460 [SPEAKER_01]: Does that fit your need? 37:16.500 --> 37:17.300 [SPEAKER_01]: Can we use that? 37:17.620 --> 37:18.841 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, that fits. 37:18.941 --> 37:19.662 [SPEAKER_01]: We can use it. 37:19.762 --> 37:31.574 [SPEAKER_01]: So again, it goes and I hope you were talking about being a generalist and going to David Epstein's range because I'm a, I love his inside the box now, which talks about the constraints. 37:32.474 --> 37:39.741 [SPEAKER_01]: Because to me, the contractual writing is the constraints that drive how the project is delivered. 37:40.662 --> 37:44.483 [SPEAKER_01]: And if done correctly, creates better outcomes over time, right? 37:44.503 --> 37:46.704 [SPEAKER_01]: The constraints are actually not limiters. 37:46.764 --> 37:53.146 [SPEAKER_01]: They're actually accelerants because they give us a realm and which to work and move forward. 37:53.186 --> 37:56.587 [SPEAKER_01]: So I think that's why the CM world has become such a big. 37:57.087 --> 37:59.769 [SPEAKER_01]: part of construction and such a needed part. 37:59.789 --> 38:04.471 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's really cool to see you guys and you personally focusing on the technology side. 38:04.531 --> 38:05.672 [SPEAKER_01]: You wrote the book on it, right? 38:05.832 --> 38:13.516 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's laying a groundwork for other groups to adopt it, learn it, teach it, you know, and I love the idea of steal from it. 38:13.536 --> 38:20.040 [SPEAKER_01]: I suggest that it will be in the show notes that everybody goes steals this and learns more because if Brian, I think we could sit here and talk about this all day. 38:20.760 --> 38:21.020 [SPEAKER_02]: Sure. 38:21.381 --> 38:26.405 [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe all phase of one thing, Brian, because I know we've got a lot of VEC in BIM folks on here, and I'm hearing everything you're saying. 38:26.485 --> 38:44.062 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, OK, yeah, you're the generalist that has to be in charge of this single source of truth, even though it might not even necessarily be yours on the project, but yet there's all these rules and constraints that like is ultimately going to piss somebody off because in order to get everybody to get along like somebody's going to 38:44.622 --> 38:45.443 [SPEAKER_02]: have a descent, right? 38:45.463 --> 38:46.743 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, how do you see the future of this? 38:46.944 --> 38:58.011 [SPEAKER_02]: Pay me a picture of what the future of your role in kind of the text set up of all this, where everybody can live in their Procore and Project site and what viewpoint would ever they're in, but that you still kind of hold the keys to it, right? 38:58.031 --> 38:59.872 [SPEAKER_02]: Because I think you are the conductor at the end of the day. 39:00.212 --> 39:02.834 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, let me see if I can take a couple of things in land this plane. 39:02.874 --> 39:05.776 [SPEAKER_00]: Jeff, I really like the framework you brought up about constraints. 39:06.296 --> 39:10.119 [SPEAKER_00]: We talk about that in everything we do and to us, it's not just contracts. 39:10.680 --> 39:13.642 [SPEAKER_00]: Every problem that comes up, every issue that comes up just adds. 39:13.702 --> 39:16.764 [SPEAKER_00]: This is a problem, but really, this is just one or two new constraints. 39:16.924 --> 39:22.588 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's our job to use constraints and create a solution given those constraints. 39:22.608 --> 39:23.549 [SPEAKER_00]: So I really like that. 39:23.689 --> 39:26.832 [SPEAKER_00]: And then Nathan, the kind of along the same way, like constraints, 39:27.552 --> 39:45.657 [SPEAKER_00]: the constraint is infinity and I love hearing you talk about how interoperability doesn't mean everything and every data point touches every other thing and every data point because then you only need one thing to fail for it not to be a good single source of truth and that's probably not what you really need. 39:45.817 --> 39:54.739 [SPEAKER_00]: It's very much like the analogy I started with of you're doing it backwards wanting everything to connect just because that sounds like what you need is not 39:55.419 --> 40:12.277 [SPEAKER_00]: sustainable and it's probably not achievable, but working the other way of how do I enable other people to be successful, and how do other people enable me to be successful, and what has to go back and forth between us? 40:13.277 --> 40:14.158 [SPEAKER_00]: for that to happen. 40:14.699 --> 40:28.013 [SPEAKER_00]: And it could be data, and it could be processes, and it could be communication style, could be a physical object, starting from that, and then how do we design the process, and is there a tool that lets us do that? 40:28.554 --> 40:30.236 [SPEAKER_00]: I think is how we get towards the future. 40:30.656 --> 40:45.602 [SPEAKER_00]: very rarely in human history, in construction or anything else, do you make something better by throwing out everything that already works just because of a couple things that don't and force everyone to do a new thing. 40:46.242 --> 41:10.056 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that to get from today to forever, people will have to change some of the things like you like doing it this way, the industry's kind of moving it this way, how do we help you evolve in that way while still letting you be efficient letting you be productive, but it's that kind of conversations of where can we create common standards, where can we create places of shared collaboration. 41:11.277 --> 41:12.518 [SPEAKER_00]: but not go overboard. 41:12.958 --> 41:14.859 [SPEAKER_00]: But do it in service of the end goal. 41:15.319 --> 41:19.801 [SPEAKER_00]: What is this thing that we're building, this facility, this asset, this whatever? 41:20.521 --> 41:24.282 [SPEAKER_00]: What is it gonna need to operate successfully for its ownership team? 41:25.063 --> 41:33.646 [SPEAKER_00]: And then how do we create that pathway as we are creating this project from inception to programming to design and construction and close out? 41:34.227 --> 41:39.749 [SPEAKER_00]: So that we're collecting this and building that end state as we go. 41:40.061 --> 41:42.622 [SPEAKER_01]: Well said, I like the idea that's the mic drop. 41:42.662 --> 41:44.183 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like we can't throw everything out. 41:44.423 --> 41:48.965 [SPEAKER_01]: And that was the disruption in the beginning that we were all looking at and it's like no disruptions on a good idea. 41:48.985 --> 41:53.948 [SPEAKER_01]: It's evolution change a few things at a time, update, maintain consistency. 41:54.028 --> 41:54.968 [SPEAKER_01]: So you nailed it. 41:55.168 --> 41:58.810 [SPEAKER_01]: Like I said, we could go on forever, but the show has an ending and it is now. 41:59.250 --> 42:04.494 [SPEAKER_01]: Brian, let people know where to go learn more about you because I know after this episode, they're going to want to learn more. 42:04.634 --> 42:05.514 [SPEAKER_00]: I appreciate that. 42:05.874 --> 42:06.975 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm pretty findable. 42:07.235 --> 42:17.302 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not the famous author, Brian Tracy, I'm the other guy, but I'm sure through the show notes, you could find me linked in, go to a Sonya's website, go to the Notre Dame College of Hearing website, and you can find that. 42:17.442 --> 42:19.043 [SPEAKER_00]: or just ask Nathan, he's got my number. 42:19.223 --> 42:19.843 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, Luke. 42:20.003 --> 42:21.363 [SPEAKER_01]: We'll have it in the show notes for you. 42:21.383 --> 42:22.044 [SPEAKER_01]: We'll have it out there. 42:22.104 --> 42:25.145 [SPEAKER_01]: Nathan, it's always a pleasure to sit down with you, my friend. 42:25.345 --> 42:25.725 [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks, man. 42:26.165 --> 42:26.705 [SPEAKER_01]: That's just fun. 42:26.885 --> 42:27.705 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I enjoyed this one. 42:27.886 --> 42:28.206 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you. 42:28.346 --> 42:31.707 [SPEAKER_01]: This was, I think there's quite a few new theories out there. 42:31.727 --> 42:33.367 [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to be playing around with for a while, so. 42:33.467 --> 42:33.667 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. 42:34.208 --> 42:34.588 [SPEAKER_02]: What a come. 42:34.848 --> 42:38.749 [SPEAKER_01]: And thank you for tuning in today to geek out for our interview with Brian Tracy. 42:38.769 --> 42:41.670 [SPEAKER_01]: The read all our new stories learn more about our guests and listen to this show. 42:41.730 --> 42:43.871 [SPEAKER_01]: Visit the contentcrew.com. 42:44.011 --> 42:45.731 [SPEAKER_01]: This is the contentcrew signing out. 42:46.192 --> 42:46.952 [SPEAKER_01]: Until next time, 42:47.433 --> 42:49.486 [SPEAKER_01]: Enjoy the ride and geek out!