[SPEAKER_01]: All right, guys.
[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome back to the No Bad Dogs podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: Today, I'm sitting down with someone who is massively shaped the way we think about K9 nutrition, Dr. Ian Billinghurst is a veterinarian surgeon, researcher, and the father of the Barth Diet.
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the most influential voices urging dog owners to look beyond.
[SPEAKER_01]: process food and truly understand what dogs are designed to eat.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you own a dog, this one you need to listen to or watch.
[SPEAKER_01]: We are breaking down what actually fuels a healthy dog or cat, maybe.
[SPEAKER_01]: And myths that keep dog owners confused and how to simply change nutrition can transform your dog's life and even your train and their behavior and overall their overall quality of life.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you Tom.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you for having me.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's a great pleasure to be here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was a great honor indeed.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So for those of you watching listening, you may or may not know I've been going around Australia, doing dog training seminars.
[SPEAKER_01]: And
[SPEAKER_01]: let's just say it's an honor to sit down with this gentleman and it's it was hard to get a hold of Dr. Ian Billiners because he's a busy guy, but luckily I had a friend Rob Sheldhorob from Gus he's got that link this up and here we are and we're in this fancy podcast studio.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is this considered Sydney still?
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, Paramata.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, great.
[SPEAKER_04]: Sydney.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, of course.
[SPEAKER_01]: See, I didn't know as an American coming in the Sydney, how gigantic Sydney is.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's enormous.
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like we went.
[SPEAKER_01]: We've been here now for almost three weeks in and out of Sydney, Gold Coast, Central Coast, et cetera.
[SPEAKER_01]: But we're kind of, it's that Sydney's are centralized location, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: We're flying in and out.
[SPEAKER_01]: and we drive 30 minutes from downtown Sydney with the call like the CBD or whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we're still in Sydney.
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, of course, this is, I think Pam had a city itself now, but it's great to Sydney.
[SPEAKER_04]: In fact, I always try and skirt around Sydney rather than try and drive through it.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's a nightmare to drive through.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, like any big city.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's kind of like New York City would have if you say you're New York City, you could be in Brooklyn or Manhattan or the Bronx.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's like all these neighborhoods.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is exactly right.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I think that's probably correct.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: Cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: So why don't you just, I know that I did an intro for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why don't you just tell my viewers and my listeners what you've been doing your whole life and what you're passionate about with
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's when I graduated as a veterinary surgeon, I'd only ever fed my dogs with actual food, real food, and never ever fed them with processed pet food, but we had been taught as in our final year.
[SPEAKER_04]: Ironically, by an agricultural science graduate, rather than a veteran graduate, we should feed process, pet food, and we should look on the packet.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now, back then, there was no avocado.
[SPEAKER_04]: What they told us to look for was it's logs that said it was complete and balanced.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was all we had to know, because all the work had been done for us.
[SPEAKER_04]: These foods were perfect.
[SPEAKER_04]: There was no way they could cause problems.
[SPEAKER_04]: That was never mentioned, actually.
[SPEAKER_04]: But it was a kind of thing that was assumed.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is what you've fed.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so when I started advising clients, I would say, well, this is what we've been told, but it's not what I do.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I probably go a very difficult, I guess, mixed messages to those early clients.
[SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, for one reason or another, my family was starting to get into dog showing at the time.
[SPEAKER_04]: Something I don't really
[SPEAKER_04]: It's not really interested in, but they were.
[SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, they said to me, well, we've got to start feeding this wheelfitting, bones and raw foods and family scraps and all that stuff, and they said, you've got, we've got to start feeding this way and feed what you've been recommended during your course.
[SPEAKER_04]: So for two years, we fed our dog process pet foods.
[SPEAKER_04]: And for two years, this is brilliant.
[SPEAKER_04]: as it turned out because for two years I watched but didn't realise as my pets went downhill and started to develop a whole range of problems we had never experienced before and I was starting to treat my own pets like my client's pets.
[SPEAKER_04]: I thought this is incredible.
[SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, I was doing a course in acupuncture, you know, when you do a bit of Chinese tortures ticking needles and things.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm a fan.
[SPEAKER_04]: Most ineptly in those early days in my case, but surprisingly they improved.
[SPEAKER_04]: I met all these health nuts, and I realized as I talked to them that what I'd been doing before was exactly what I should be doing, which was feeding whole raw foods.
[SPEAKER_04]: So this was the beginning of my
[SPEAKER_04]: life times work, looking into nutrition and food as the basis of health for not only animals, but also for humans.
[SPEAKER_04]: In fact, during most of my early consults, as I began to talk about this, a people say to me and they still do today, by the way.
[SPEAKER_04]: It doesn't actually apply to us as well, and I said, of course, it does.
[SPEAKER_04]: Which is always been the hidden agenda in my work.
[SPEAKER_04]: So that's the way it all began in a nutshell.
[SPEAKER_04]: Of course, it was probably more complicated and long-winded than that, but that's the way it all began with me.
[SPEAKER_04]: First of all, being persuaded by the family to feed process, pet food, watching the terrible results.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then,
[SPEAKER_04]: thinking about what I was doing and going back to where we had been and then a whole a lifetime of research and and here we are today talking to you.
[SPEAKER_01]: So back up a little bit and tell me when when you graduated veterinary school.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_01]: You started working with your own class.
[SPEAKER_01]: Did you have your own practice at that time?
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, interestingly back then, you could go, you could
[SPEAKER_04]: go out with a shoe box, it was you could put cards, a stethoscope, a few instruments, and if you were lucky, but buy something to take radiographs with x-rays, and away you went.
[SPEAKER_04]: Not so easily done these days.
[SPEAKER_04]: We'd back then, you could open up a corner on the corner, I literally did that.
[SPEAKER_04]: In fact, my first practice was literally upstairs.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was in any place I could rent at the time.
[SPEAKER_04]: But we would gangbusters straight away.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was amazing.
[SPEAKER_04]: I've never had a day in practice where people haven't turned up, so... Wow, yeah, that's great.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and so we did that as a way we started.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I...
[SPEAKER_04]: One of the things that my, one of our early professors, now he was a professor Kirk, a professor Kirk was a, a big deal in those days.
[SPEAKER_04]: He edited a, he edited a text called Current Veterinary Therapy.
[SPEAKER_04]: And one of the, he came out and spoke to us.
[SPEAKER_04]: There's American Professor.
[SPEAKER_04]: couldn't believe it.
[SPEAKER_04]: In the fourth year of us that was a five year course, fourth year he said to us, your clients are going to be your best teachers.
[SPEAKER_04]: And he said, what you do is he said, in terms of health, ask them what they feed their dog or cat, mostly dogs.
[SPEAKER_04]: What he was referring to, but what he was meaning was,
[SPEAKER_04]: What brand of dog food?
[SPEAKER_04]: And he said, and correlate that with their health.
[SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, because from me, it was not a brand of dog food.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was correlating pet's health with either process pet food or raw whole foods.
[SPEAKER_04]: And the, for me, the difference was absolutely amazing.
[SPEAKER_04]: And of course, what I went out on then to do, I started handing out simple sheets of diets to people.
[SPEAKER_04]: watching the results.
[SPEAKER_04]: In fact, I started to do a whole survey.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I was doing a survey of the change in diet and the resulting health.
[SPEAKER_04]: And what I saw was that a lot of problems, things like allergies and inflammatory bowel disease, arthritis, a whole range of conditions, started to disappear.
[SPEAKER_04]: No drugs, just a simple change in diet.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now, this absolutely blew me away.
[SPEAKER_01]: what year what year what what are we talking here how long ago is we are talking early in the 1980s okay yeah so when you see just to back up a little bit because I'm really interested in the granular picture because as a dog owner then turned professional trainer or whatever you want to call me working with dogs professionally helping dog owners understand their dog more
[SPEAKER_01]: We as dog owners assume when you go to college.
[SPEAKER_01]: and get your DVM or whatever specialty you go in, they teach you all the things.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when we go to you and you say, oh, here's this, here's this prescription, here's this food, here's this diet, here's this surgery we're going to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the best thing for the dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: But what you're saying is is when you were in school, they didn't teach you much about nutrition, or they just said, hey, here's the food to recommend and be on with it.
[SPEAKER_04]: pretty well and it's the same today.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[SPEAKER_04]: It is exactly the same.
[SPEAKER_04]: They will talk about nutrition.
[SPEAKER_04]: But at the end of the day, the recommendation by the nutrition lecturer is exactly the same.
[SPEAKER_04]: Reach for a packet.
[SPEAKER_04]: And today, as long as it goes the FCO stamp of approval, American Association of Feed Control officials, FCO.
[SPEAKER_04]: As long as that package has that, you'll be told by the veterinarian.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is the perfect food for your dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, cat.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when you're feeding your dogs a more raw diet and raw diet for those of you listening, and of course watching it doesn't always mean raw meat.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to get into that in a little bit.
[SPEAKER_01]: It just means not not process foods.
[SPEAKER_01]: You were giving your dogs the things that you would be eating as a family.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you switch to a process diet.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_01]: What did you see?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I'm just, again, being a dog, I do this podcast going to have a dog lover, and I just so happen to be a professional, and I have the opportunity to sit down with people like you, and I'm really grateful for.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, selfishly, I learn more.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I want my viewers and my listeners to learn with me, but what are the things that, because I'm really interested in the things that you saw, like once you switch to a cable and things?
[SPEAKER_04]: The very first things I saw was a change in their coat.
[SPEAKER_04]: It became scurvy and smelly.
[SPEAKER_04]: They started to develop mouth-problem with periodontal disease.
[SPEAKER_04]: Just not a great deal, but just a little bit at first.
[SPEAKER_04]: Their energy dropped.
[SPEAKER_04]: Interestingly, they began to, for the first time, they began to develop ectoparasides.
[SPEAKER_04]: Please.
[SPEAKER_04]: My dogs have never had fleas before, suddenly they were getting fleas.
[SPEAKER_04]: And they were getting ear problems, all little things, very in a major way, I saw these dogs begin to have problems with reproduction because we were breeding at the time.
[SPEAKER_04]: We saw reproductive problems.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then what I saw was dogs we had vaccinated at the time, reacted really badly to vaccination.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I just couldn't believe the difference when you fed this food, process, pet food, to when you fed actual food, actual food.
[SPEAKER_01]: And what was it, what was it, what was it, was it kibble, was it canned food, what was it?
[SPEAKER_01]: It would have been kibble, kibble.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I may be some canned, but I think it was for the convenience it would have been kibble.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So as you got into, because that's obviously, that's all you need to see.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is, this is a much different quality of life here.
[SPEAKER_01]: My dogs are getting flees, getting parodinal disease, and getting ear infections.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think one of the things that I see with dog owners get overwhelmed frustrated with is they go, okay, Tommy, you've had on all these doctors and these, these experts on nutrition and what I want to really educate people on and learn myself is,
[SPEAKER_01]: raw food doesn't have to be this gigantic budget.
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't have to order the we feed raws and the places that make it easy to to deliver to your door because it's not as, it can be expensive to people who are on budgets and things like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But can you just explain in your own words like what a raw diet truly is and why you're passionate about an understanding dog nutrition in the raw diet for dogs?
[SPEAKER_04]: I think
[SPEAKER_04]: What people don't do, and what certainly what veterinarians, or even people who feed raw, is ask the question, why do we feed raw?
[SPEAKER_04]: What is it about raw that's so special, is there anything special?
[SPEAKER_04]: And then I'd like to tell them, well, think about this, if you have a car, do you follow the manufacturers recommendation in terms of spare parts, servicing, fuel, oil?
[SPEAKER_04]: And then the question becomes, well, okay, who is the manoeuvrefecture of our dogs?
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, it's not the breeder.
[SPEAKER_04]: It is in the short term, but not really.
[SPEAKER_04]: A shipping, we've got pure bread all.
[SPEAKER_04]: Some of the new design of bread dogs, but who is the manoeuvrefecture?
[SPEAKER_04]: And the answer is evolution.
[SPEAKER_04]: our dogs evolved over millions of years and they evolved and they formed a partnership with a partnership between their body and food.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that partnership is vital, and it's vital we maintain that partnership.
[SPEAKER_04]: Put it in another way, it's what the genome expects in order to function normally.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is why you should, this is what raw is all about.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's not a fad.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's actually following the recommendation of the manufacturer.
[SPEAKER_04]: as you would with a car.
[SPEAKER_04]: We would know that if you are a car owner and you buy a brand new car, you might spend $70,000 or something.
[SPEAKER_04]: You don't go out and go to the local fellow down the road who fixes cars.
[SPEAKER_04]: You actually go to the approved service person and you don't allow dodgy spare parts or the wrong fuel.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is exactly what we're doing
[SPEAKER_04]: It's, this is the simple understanding you need to have of y, if it were because it's what dogs and cats are designed by evolution to eat, and if you, it's the gold standard.
[SPEAKER_04]: So what I discovered over time was the further you vary the diet away from what evolution designed for our dogs and cats, the greater the problems you get, and what we see today
[SPEAKER_04]: Now, there's a phenomenon that all things, whether it's a car, a person, a dog, a cat, an elephant, whatever, is called aging.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's slow degeneration.
[SPEAKER_04]: And what's the quickest way to promote degeneration in an animal or a car, or put those wrong spare parts in?
[SPEAKER_04]: And we're doing that.
[SPEAKER_04]: And what we see as the result of degeneration are all these degenerative diseases.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I'm talking about allergies, what are immunities, inflammatory bowel disease, kidney failure, liver disease, cancer, cardiovascular risk, and frighteningly cancer.
[SPEAKER_04]: And you know, you mentioned cancer.
[SPEAKER_04]: We are feeding food that feeds cancer, okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's unbelievable, 50 to 70 to 80% of the food that what's in a packet of dog food, for example, a kibble, is starch which goes straight to sugar in the bloodstream feeding and promoting cancer.
[SPEAKER_04]: Unbelievable.
[SPEAKER_04]: And we do it the same to ourselves.
[SPEAKER_04]: and yet the veterinary profession and the human medical profession will not recognize this as as bodies.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, there are individuals within each profession that do recognize this, but as a body and as people have a recommendation of a body of professionals, this is not recommended, this is not understood, this is not seen.
[SPEAKER_04]: In fact, it's totally ignored, which is why today we have
[SPEAKER_04]: cancer industry that absolutely depends, and this is because for dogs, cats, and humans, on the continual production of patients with cancer, and the continual
[SPEAKER_04]: um, maintaining of that cancer, within that within individuals.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, we, we, we, we fight it, but usually and quite often the cure gets rid of the cancer, but in the process takes out the patient, which is so sad.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and it could be, it's preventable, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It sounds like
[SPEAKER_01]: what I hear talking to experts like yourself and doctors like yourself we hear almost the same story every time as people are assaulting their dog with low grade high process food because they don't they don't know it's education which is why I'm really it's why I love this podcast it's education these people are like they don't know I fed cable my whole life to my dogs
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure a lot of people listening, watching still feed cable.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's... And you have to understand where this comes from.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's the trainers of the people we trust in, who trains our veterinarians in nutrition and the answer is the pet food companies.
[SPEAKER_04]: One of their representatives trains, now you have to picture, you have somewhere, you know, some late teens, early 20s, person who has highly educated, highly intelligent, understands biology, and is being trained in,
[SPEAKER_04]: biochemistry and being trained in pathology and medicine, surgery, all those things, all the foundations of a veterinary surgeon or medical doctor, and that training is brilliant.
[SPEAKER_04]: So when it comes to nutrition, why would they question what they've been trained, exactly?
[SPEAKER_04]: To believe.
[SPEAKER_04]: So they don't.
[SPEAKER_04]: So they are trained to be fearful of raw to never recommend raw.
[SPEAKER_04]: Actually, we tell to never recommend actual food.
[SPEAKER_04]: never recommend.
[SPEAKER_04]: You have to only ever recommend some form of process pet food.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's how veterinarians are trained.
[SPEAKER_04]: And these impressionable young minds accepted.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then they told, if you recommend anything else, you're likely to the food or the raw food, we'll contain pathogens.
[SPEAKER_04]: It will be unbalanced.
[SPEAKER_04]: And if it's got bones in it, the bones are deadly and will cause problems.
[SPEAKER_04]: So the threat, what I call the three bees, bugs, bones and balance.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is what our veterinarians said again, so it interrupt bugs.
[SPEAKER_04]: What was it?
[SPEAKER_04]: Bugs, bones and balance.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, this is, yeah, like that.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is what our veterinarians are trying to be afraid of.
[SPEAKER_04]: And to never ever let their clients feed this way.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so they passionately believe.
[SPEAKER_04]: In fact, some of them believe it's so much that they will tell Porky Pies, I'll tell lies.
[SPEAKER_04]: I say, oh, I see anybody who feeds raw comes in weekly with gut problems, or we have to do surgeries constantly to remove bones.
[SPEAKER_04]: Or we see the result of unbalanced diets,
[SPEAKER_04]: nutritional disease, whether it's excessive nutrition, nutrients or insufficient.
[SPEAKER_04]: All of these are untrue, but they'll say that to people just because their authority allows them to have that influence on people, not every vet, but quite a few of them will do that because they so passionately believe that this food is dangerous and they, because that's what they're taught.
[SPEAKER_04]: But what we do have now is a perfect business model in the veterinary industry and the veterinary world, the veterinary profession.
[SPEAKER_04]: We have a situation where the veterinarian, with the approval of his peers and his professional bodies,
[SPEAKER_04]: that actually causes the problems, for which he is trying to have a medical and surgical solution, but not a nutritional one, and he's going to be applauded for that, and in fact he can sell this product, this product that's causing the problem.
[SPEAKER_04]: So he makes money that way, then he makes money from all the diagnostic procedures and then makes money from selling the cures.
[SPEAKER_04]: It is a perfect business model where you can actually produce the problem that you then get paid to deal with.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, and they don't know that that's happening.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's scary.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what you're saying is, and not all veterinarians, because I know that not all veterinarians, actually the reason why I got into raw food is because of my veterinarians.
[SPEAKER_01]: So not all veterinarians, but what you're saying is, is
[SPEAKER_01]: veterinarians are getting their ear full of the pet food industry, the giants, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: The pet science, the big companies that are saying, hey, these are the things that you should, so they're in the colleges, they're in the institutes, they're in the universities.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're saying, hey, before you get your license and you take your picture with your cap and gown and you go start your business or whatever, just make sure that you're recommending this type of food and never this food because of these reasons.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then once they go out and start practicing, they're saying, hey, you need to feed this beware of beware of raw food for the three bees.
[SPEAKER_01]: and then the people are feeding this diet and then it's itself perpetuating thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: They get cancers, they get lumps, they get bumps, they get allergies, they get skin issues, they come in and then they're caching out on that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know that that's probably not the intentions of the veterinarian.
[SPEAKER_04]: But they're not their intention at all.
[SPEAKER_04]: But they have no idea because I never asked a really question where do these problems come from?
[SPEAKER_04]: Well they're told is that
[SPEAKER_04]: At this age, you can expect to see these problems beginning and further age again to see this problem beginning.
[SPEAKER_04]: So it's just a matter of, this is when you're going to...
[SPEAKER_04]: likely to see this problem, but never ask the question, what is the root cause of this problem?
[SPEAKER_04]: Nobody else, they just, in fact, they have to think of this way.
[SPEAKER_04]: The veterinary profession doesn't think that health is the default state of any animal.
[SPEAKER_04]: We actually think as a profession that disease is the default state and that we are here to diagnose it and treat it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't think it's ever taught in that way, but really, that's the mindset that is produced, that disease is to be expected, not health and we are just here to diagnose it and then deal with it with drugs and all surgery.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the same thing with people, though.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that's what's happening with people.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've been doing a lot of research and listening to a lot of different people on that, where even back in the day, like even universities in the States, these really sought after prestigious schools, Harvard University, and other what we call Ivy League schools, have been paid off.
[SPEAKER_01]: by certain companies to produce certain results and to say, hey, this is what you should do.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like the cholesterol thing in the United States was a gigantic money, money grab.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think there was a study came out that Harvard University had said,
[SPEAKER_01]: these reasons why and it was funded by like Coca-Cola or something.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was like a big company and so we in this was a long time ago and so we're seeing these things happen to in the United States where it's becoming and it's we're all opening up our eyes and people to endless and like I said before I used to there's this food cult I don't know who makes it was like pet it maybe pedigree it was called gravy train in the United States and you pour you get the cable in the bowl.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you pour the the water on and then you kind of fluff that around it makes this gravy right and I'm thinking of my head It was like all different colors and and I even fed Benefulfur while which was like this Plato looking it I think it was to represent like carrots and broccoli and but I
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like green and orange and all these and I used to feed that's it came in little a little bag I used to feed that stuff all the time and I'm just I'm just you know passionate about understanding like if I went to the gas station
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, got a pre-cook stake in a bag and opened it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's probably not going to be, you know, where was the, where was the cow raise, what was he fed, how is he, how is he kept, probably not great, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be punched full of antibiotics and growth steroids and it's probably kept in a just enough stall just to stand up and these are the, these are the,
[SPEAKER_01]: These are the things that I see every day where I'm really opening up my eyes and realizing that a factory farming is not good, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: But if you go to a regenerative farm, like we talked about before, we started recording.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm seeing this, you know, so if I opened up a little cellophane plastic bag and poured it in and it looked like play dough in my dog's eating it, it's probably equivalent to going to get your stake in a bag down at the 711.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's not even equivalent to that.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's equivalent to just pouring starch, because even that steak is going to be better than the process better, that we're burning out.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, so that's what you have to realize.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is absolutely disastrous.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it is the resilience built in by millions of years of evolution in our dogs that is able they are able to withstand this for a while.
[SPEAKER_04]: But we are seeing cancer arthritis diabetes in younger and younger animals as they have fed these terrible foods.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's unbelievable as I watch this.
[SPEAKER_04]: I can't believe that people are willing to
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, I do believe it, but you will need to accept these first, but we are seeing there's a raw feeding veterinary society now that there are more and more vets coming on board, but it's very difficult when you have a whole profession against you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think, like you said, I think the biggest thing right now is when you're, you're kind of what's the word, when you're in vet school, you're kind of, you're, you're tainted a little bit because they're like, hey, you're going to hear about raw food from some of your clients.
[SPEAKER_01]: Tell them no, you know, tell them no, it's bad for these reasons.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, explain, let's just get down to the granular pieces here because it's really helped me over the years.
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, guys, people were listening and watching.
[SPEAKER_01]: I really, you know, I've read the comments from people talking about the money and how much it cost.
[SPEAKER_01]: But listen, we're going to be talking about some ways for people to feed your dog, help even if you, even if you give your dog some greens and some,
[SPEAKER_01]: some vegetables and some fruit, it's going to be better on top of your cable than nothing at all, which we'll talk about in a little bit.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the big, the big box companies are, they kind of have the ear of the veterinarians at a base level, the universities, the colleges, the schools, the people who are saying, hey, we're going to fund your new lab and we're going to fund this new research for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_01]: And because that happens and that happens exactly the same with the USDA and with the in the states, our regulation companies, there's these big companies that will fund and it'll be like a a third-party organization that it's not, it's not PepsiCo or lays potato chips or whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's it's a kind of an LLC that you wouldn't recognize that actually owns these companies, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it'll be like, you know, research, we see that in the dog training space a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's this new study comes out that shows this about dog training and then you kind of you go to the scroll to the bottom, sponsored or powered or presented by, etc.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you kind of look, don't do this type of training, but also if you want to do the right type of training,
[SPEAKER_01]: Take our course and go to our school.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's like this isn't science.
[SPEAKER_01]: This isn't real.
[SPEAKER_01]: These are these are it's it's it's tricking people Like pet owners who go into the veterinarians to say hey, you know, because I remember I'll get you my example because You know, and I just first met so we you don't really know how I got into this, but
[SPEAKER_01]: My veterinarian Dr. Chris Dallas who have had in the podcast, she's the one who my girlfriend of the Times dog had severe hot spots, licking digging big scabs, big wounds on the rear end is a big Saint Bernard and she said, hey, you should switch your dog to a raw diet.
[SPEAKER_01]: She switched to raw diet, everything cleared up like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's how I saw I needed to see a done, you know, put a fork in it, it's all I needed to see.
[SPEAKER_01]: Dog owners can you explain to me when you say starch so somebody feeds their dog a process diet like you know McDonald's or what you guys call hunger jacks here I think which is Burger King back at home.
[SPEAKER_04]: We got McDonald's, we got hungry jacks.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, so explain to me when you say starch.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you give your dog a process of cable, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's starch that breaks down into sugar that then fuels other things.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, can you get granular on what that exactly means and how that process works?
[SPEAKER_04]: what the process of starch causing problems?
[SPEAKER_01]: Just in general, like, why is Kibble, what is Kibble made of?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: When you say starch to a layman's person, who, when you say starch, I think potatoes.
[SPEAKER_01]: So explain to me how the starch, like what is Kibble in processed food made out of?
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, it's usually a grain base.
[SPEAKER_04]: If some sort, whether it's corn or wheat,
[SPEAKER_04]: Sometimes I'm sorry these days, but most, in a state, I think it's a lot of corn, struggling with a lot of wheat, but in either case, wheat is mostly starch, as like potatoes.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's the energy source for the growth of a new plant.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: So that's what it's there for.
[SPEAKER_04]: In fact, you have a grain of wheat.
[SPEAKER_04]: There's a you could sprout that and it'll grow up.
[SPEAKER_04]: By the way, the sprouted wheat then has become very brilliant food, but the start should self when presented as food for a dog is a source.
[SPEAKER_04]: What it's presented to in these foods is as a source of energy.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now, the problem is, our dogs and cats did not evolve using starch as a principle source of energy.
[SPEAKER_04]: They use fat and protein.
[SPEAKER_04]: And when you use starch, you raise insulin levels, and you raise blood sugar levels, and both of those things drive inflammation.
[SPEAKER_04]: And inflammation drives
[SPEAKER_04]: the every degenerative disease.
[SPEAKER_04]: Addogs are not designed to eat that way.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so you're putting the wrong feet, literally the wrong fuel, almost as bad as putting diesel in a petrol engine or a car.
[SPEAKER_04]: Not quite as dramatic in the immediate results, but the long-term results are catastrophic.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's why we see the first one we see usually, well, very, very first is usually some sort of bowel problem.
[SPEAKER_04]: But arthritis is a merely one, allergies is very common.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then inflammatory bowel disease, and over time, you start to see obesity, and then you start to get all the metabolic diseases that we see in humans.
[SPEAKER_04]: In fact, I learned about this, I did egg science before I did vet science.
[SPEAKER_04]: And we were taught then.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, it was, well, a couple of things I learned back then.
[SPEAKER_04]: One that nutrition was absolutely vital to health.
[SPEAKER_04]: Farmers want healthy animals.
[SPEAKER_04]: So it was up to an agricultural scientist to ensure at that stage when I was training an animal nutrition then.
[SPEAKER_04]: But it was production animals.
[SPEAKER_04]: for these animals, which by the way are being raised for as food, so they've been raised very rapidly and ironically, one of starch-based diets for these production animals.
[SPEAKER_04]: But we were also taught that if you kept these say a lamb or a young yielding cow,
[SPEAKER_04]: on a starch-based diet for it's into, beyond the point at which it would be taken and used as food.
[SPEAKER_04]: So he raised the capital on that sort of diet for three or four, five, six years, that animal would become grossly obese.
[SPEAKER_04]: It would develop the most terrible arthritis, and would end up with things like diabetes, and all the metabolic problems that we see in humans.
[SPEAKER_04]: I learned that in egg science.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then,
[SPEAKER_04]: moving into vet science, and this is the sort of food we feed.
[SPEAKER_04]: And in fact, Afko, American association of fake control officials, has simply taken that model, which was originally mainly for production animals, but then transferred that to dogs and cats and assumed that, and they still assume, and this is why they're teaching, that feeding starts,
[SPEAKER_04]: not starch is a source of energy which is basically sugar but fat and protein is a source of energy but they assume that starch would not cause a problem.
[SPEAKER_04]: Our vets assume the same thing and you know these people are highly trained in biochemistry vets I'm talking about.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think the problem is, a lot of the time they didn't really understand there by a chemistry.
[SPEAKER_04]: In fact, when I went through, I thought it was, I didn't, because it was never taught in a way that we related it to health and disease.
[SPEAKER_04]: And we now know, by chemically, that this is a major problem.
[SPEAKER_04]: For example, insulin itself.
[SPEAKER_04]: It drives,
[SPEAKER_04]: inflammation.
[SPEAKER_04]: It actually drives inflammation.
[SPEAKER_04]: It does that through a number of enzyme systems.
[SPEAKER_04]: We won't go into that now, but it also drives these glycated end products.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's the sugar drives that glycated end products.
[SPEAKER_04]: I just can't believe that the profession
[SPEAKER_04]: doesn't understand the simple basic facts about metabolism and how our animals are not designed to use starch, which becomes sugar in the bloodstream, starts in sugar in wheat or corn, whatever source of grain, but they don't understand that that course is the problems that they are seeing daily, but don't you think that, don't you think that they're
[SPEAKER_01]: it's tough because it's hard to believe that they would also be benefiting from that because people are walking through their vet doors, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, yeah, and the joy for them is because they don't understand it.
[SPEAKER_04]: We forgive them for they know what they do.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what you're saying is, is Afko had basically taken the principles and foundation for pumping up as fast as we possibly can.
[SPEAKER_01]: Agricultural raised animals for production for slaughter.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And copying pasted that into our dog and cat nutrition.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, that's exactly what's happened.
[SPEAKER_04]: even today.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, yes, today because they've never changed that model.
[SPEAKER_04]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_04]: The assumption is that there is no problem with carbohydrates being the principal source of energy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's the mix.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when you do for an example and you don't have to know this answer or not, but like let's say you get a bag of cable and the portion size, the serving size is a cup for an example.
[SPEAKER_01]: What would you say the percentage wise is that starch?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that grain?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that corn?
[SPEAKER_04]: It's going to be somewhere between 40 and 70 percent, so because starch is just made up of glucose molecules all strong together, digestive, digestive, starch, it enters the bloodstream as glucose, you are essentially feeding a food that is mostly sugar, because it turns into sugar.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's what you're feeding.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's what they're bad contains.
[SPEAKER_04]: It could turn into a product that turns straight to sugar in the bloodstream.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so that instantly raises insulin levels, and you are now producing an animal that is hyper-glycemic and hyper-insulinemic all of its life.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's the energy that you were talking about like this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I, you know, interesting enough, this may be a TMI or too much information, but my son on the way over vomited on the way over and his car seat, he's three.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the reason why he did is because we let him have pancakes for breakfast and only pancakes for breakfast.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now listen, we give our kids the fruits of life right every now and then, but we're very mindful of the sugar intake because
[SPEAKER_01]: crazy now in Australia what we've noticed because again I'm a human being so I'm not perfect I eat Oreos and stuff but maybe once every six months okay not like when I was a kid when I would eat a room of Oreos you know once a week or something right I'm educated it's hard it's amazing like the sweets are good and that's why these benefits and these foods are sweet
[SPEAKER_01]: and just talk to him and he was well, so carry on.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know the orios and drama, but here you guys have so many more regulations and Australia than in the United States.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, it's really interesting that I noticed is the mountain do bottles here are died, so your actual plastic for this you're missing not an Australia, the plastic of your mountain do bottle is died like lime green.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, in the states,
[SPEAKER_01]: the actual liquid is lime green, so if you look at your mountain dew bottles like in the grocery stores or in the gas station, it's a lime green bottle, like super lime green, fluorescent, glowing, highlight or green, well in the states, that's what the liquid actually is if you pour it into a glass, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So the difference in your the things that you can do and the like the red, the red dyes and
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, me and my wife were just like, yeah, we should have gave them some protein with that, we know with that, instead of just sugar, because that's all it was.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a cake, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So it was a plower, and that's what we're talking about, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: These things that just turn into shit in them, of course, we put maple syrup on it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he puked because he didn't feel good.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we, you know, we felt bad because he's like, he's like, he's three.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he's like, why did that happen?
[SPEAKER_01]: We're like, well, mommy and daddy should have gave you something else.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sausage or some eggs, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: That was our fault.
[SPEAKER_01]: But,
[SPEAKER_01]: For me as well, I've noticed over the years as I've become more of a mature adult and realize that this wheat stuff isn't fuel.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've also noticed that if I don't eat protein that I get really fatigued and almost like,
[SPEAKER_01]: uh uh like out of it, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And so one of the things that uh there's this company back in New York called Roganix and they uh they produced their own mix of raw food and uh we add a client that had like a 13-year-old German shepherd and this is a true story because I saw it by myself.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's 13-year-old German shepherd and it was an older lady from the UK that was
[SPEAKER_01]: And I went to her house because I was training her younger German Shepherd.
[SPEAKER_01]: And her German Shepherd, that was like 12 or 13, she was now moving around and running around and had good mobility and had good energy.
[SPEAKER_01]: So back to the energy component of this.
[SPEAKER_01]: So let's just break this down for somebody like me who doesn't understand the biochemistry and the science of molecules.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, the start, so the process food in which we feed our dogs every day, twice a day, sometimes three times a day, is potentially 40 to 70% a starch, either corn or wheat and other byproducts, and then what that does is then it turns into a sugar, which then like if I that would be like my son or me eating pancakes every day, it's like your your body just goes I need
[SPEAKER_01]: Ray, I don't, I'm asking, I don't, I don't.
[SPEAKER_04]: What happens is that when you have high, high sugar load, your body is designed to keep sugar within certain limits.
[SPEAKER_04]: So when, so this excess sugar, then raises insulin, now insulin by itself, constantly high is damaging by producing inflammation.
[SPEAKER_04]: It drives cancer to by promoting growth of cancer cells.
[SPEAKER_04]: because it's high, it now becomes produces these glycated end products.
[SPEAKER_04]: I would combine with proteins and fats and produces damaging molecules within the body.
[SPEAKER_04]: Over time, this all leads to degeneration.
[SPEAKER_04]: And
[SPEAKER_04]: also at the same time the sugar has to go somewhere and that's the role of the insulin to make and the insulin is the hormone of storage.
[SPEAKER_04]: So insulin takes that sugar and stores it as fat and is fat around the body.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now that now the end was becoming obese and the end will because the body is designed to
[SPEAKER_04]: It's a bit of a worry because I'm going to get fatal and fat, and the body knows it shouldn't get fat.
[SPEAKER_04]: So the insulin now becomes resistant.
[SPEAKER_04]: So the body now says, I don't want to store all this fat.
[SPEAKER_04]: So the body starts to become resistant to insulin.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now the idea is that over evolutionary time, if this happened, say, two million years ago, would only be for a short period that this
[SPEAKER_04]: amount of sugar was coming in, so that insulin resistance would be there for a reason.
[SPEAKER_04]: But when it's there chronically, that insulin resistance now, because there's other problems, and we start to see obesity, and we start to see other hormonal problems develop.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's a very complex problem, but we're doing something to our bodies that they were not designed to deal within this way.
[SPEAKER_04]: And one of those problems is insulin resistance, and so we get obesity, we get insulin resistance in the end.
[SPEAKER_04]: the body breaks down and we start to see what we sometimes we get diabetes, sometimes we always, always, always get arthritis and we get an animal too because
[SPEAKER_04]: with this blood sugar problem, initially with the blood sugar problem being dropped.
[SPEAKER_04]: And this is what we see daily with dogs being fed this way, they're hungry all the time.
[SPEAKER_04]: They quickly become hungry because they've got a sugar load, the body drops the blood sugar thanks to the insulin.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now, as the blood sugar drops they become hungry again, so they want more.
[SPEAKER_04]: So they're going to eat more of the sugar load.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now, with real food, this doesn't happen.
[SPEAKER_04]: We're with real food instead of insulin being released as a hormone called glucagon being released and glucagon has the opposite effect to insulin.
[SPEAKER_04]: But basically we are meant to be more if I can put it this way, glucagon dominant.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is.
[SPEAKER_04]: These are the two hormones produced by the pancreas, by the way, and they're supposed to be in balance.
[SPEAKER_04]: And they are in balance with a proper balance of food, where for a dog, that balance is mostly protein and fat, for a little carbohydrate.
[SPEAKER_04]: And when that happens, the glycogen is predominant, the insulin isn't, and there's no insulin to drive cancer or to drive obesity and insulin resistance,
[SPEAKER_04]: When you're feeding real food that doesn't have carbohydrates as the energy source because that's the way the animals are designed to live.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's what their bodies are designed to use.
[SPEAKER_04]: So we have this terrible situation today where because of this avocado idea that will transfer the way we feed production animals for slaughter onto animals that are supposed to live their entire life,
[SPEAKER_04]: We transfer this idea of feeding high carbide rate diets to these animals.
[SPEAKER_04]: We're getting this metabolic disease, which sends up in degeneration, aging degeneration and the whole raft of degeneration disease.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's why animals, when you switch them to what they're designed to it, start to improve.
[SPEAKER_04]: It looks like magic.
[SPEAKER_04]: but it's just physiology, just basic, normal.
[SPEAKER_04]: What evolution has designed them to use.
[SPEAKER_04]: There's this, I mentioned earlier, this is partnership between the body and the food.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's called scientific name for it.
[SPEAKER_04]: There's a home-eastatic mechanism where, and in fact, this is one of the things too, the body will take from real food, the nutrients that requires moment by moment.
[SPEAKER_04]: And there's no such thing and this is important as a complete and balanced diet.
[SPEAKER_04]: What there is is evolutionary food balance.
[SPEAKER_04]: So as long as the food you are feeding over time is roughly in the balance as provided by evolution.
[SPEAKER_04]: then this animal will remain healthy.
[SPEAKER_04]: It will bounce out its own nutritional, because it could store nutrients.
[SPEAKER_04]: It could get rid of nutrients in 1, so the body works with real food, but it only works this way with real food.
[SPEAKER_04]: It doesn't work this way with processed pet food.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I would just say to that, it's so interesting that dog owners,
[SPEAKER_01]: when they go to the store like I can go to a grocery store anywhere on the world and pick out food you know for me and my family right I can I can pick out the food when you go to a actually it's getting better in the States I don't know about here but when you go to a grocery store
[SPEAKER_01]: You only have one type of food, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: You just have the middle aisle, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And the grocery stores, which is the chips and the flowers and the pastries and all that stuff that's in the middle.
[SPEAKER_01]: All the package stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's why everyone always says, well, not everyone, but what I've started to learn is like, when you go to a grocery and I never realize that's until this year, always try to do most of your shopping on the outside.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're all the real fridge up around the edges.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't realize that until this year.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's where the real food is.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't, isn't that crazy like my, you know, I'm 36 years old and I just now, when somebody said, stay away from the middle of a grocery store, I'm like, why?
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, oh my gosh, because all your fruits and vegetables and all your meats, you know, your cheeses, your your fish, your culture, your meat, everything is on the outside.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, all the real foods on the outside, the unprocessed stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just, it just clicked.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, oh my gosh.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, when you go to a grocery store or something like that, you know, in these states, not enough, it's like this in Australia, but you only have the cables and the canned food.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's all that's in there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, it's starting to change.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's cooked food now, like a cooked diet and the refrigeration section and pet stores now.
[SPEAKER_01]: And even pet stores back at home.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know about here in the states, but raw food is becoming very, very popular.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're finding it in
[SPEAKER_01]: So explain to me how you created the barf diet because I think anybody that's been in the the dog industry long enough, especially if you're a dog breeder, because that's how I learned about the barf diet is my I have a Dutch shepherd and my breeder is like I feed the barf diet.
[SPEAKER_01]: So can you explain, because that's just like a legendary diet, do you created that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, how did that come about?
[SPEAKER_04]: I observed, the first thing I observed about animals in was, okay, let's just drop back it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Here I am in the, let me think, 75, 76, I'm at in practice in 76, last year of Vetsky was 75.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: Got it.
[SPEAKER_04]: So in 1976 I'm at in practice and the vast majority, at least,
[SPEAKER_04]: half of the population only feeds raw.
[SPEAKER_04]: They feed butcher scraps, bones, and left over from the family table.
[SPEAKER_04]: Very few health problems.
[SPEAKER_04]: In fact, during my last year at vet school, our teacher said, we don't have the problems here in Australia that we see in America.
[SPEAKER_04]: Nobody, let's say it again, we don't have that from that, and so, for example, we didn't have periodontalizations to any great extent, that we had said there was no veterinary dentistry industry in Australia.
[SPEAKER_04]: We weren't doing much dentistry because there was no need for it, and it wasn't until the mid-80s to light 80s, we started to import process petroids from America and
[SPEAKER_04]: The number of companies came into Australia who were promoting pet ownership and at the same time selling their products and so the pet members started to escalate and we were starting to see more and more health problems arise in those animals and so what happened was that the veterinary profession in Australia invited a lecturer from America to
[SPEAKER_04]: come out and do postgraduate lectures to our vets to tell them how to deal with this increasingly complicated array of diseases we were seeing.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now this is epidemiology in action that I actually saw.
[SPEAKER_04]: My witness, a time administrator,
[SPEAKER_04]: When I just took with dogs for the moment, where our dogs had very few health problems and lived long lives without having, there was virtually, there wasn't a lot of cancer, wasn't a lot of arthritis, not a lot of parodontal disease, not a lot of skin disease, not a lot of allergies.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you don't have rabies at all here?
[SPEAKER_04]: No, we don't, but that's quite a different issue.
[SPEAKER_04]: What we're seeing here is animals that were healthy because basically they were being fed the way they'd been fed for millions of years, with a lot of raw food and just human food scraps.
[SPEAKER_04]: Then, during the 80s, we started to see these foods coming and gradually as the health problems increased.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it was so, it was so gradual that nobody really noticed.
[SPEAKER_01]: And these food companies were from America.
[SPEAKER_04]: Some were from America that were importing American food companies.
[SPEAKER_04]: We also started out our own food companies here.
[SPEAKER_04]: I was a British company.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't want to mention names, but because it's dangerous.
[SPEAKER_04]: But companies came in and started to promote pet ownership and an easy way to feed them.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was all in one quiet package, and then we then, because as the problems increased, we had to get lectures from America, teachers had to diagnose and how to treat these myriad conditions.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, vets became more and more educated in a wider and wider range of disease problems that were gradually diagnosing more and more, but it was so insidious.
[SPEAKER_04]: unless you were actually looking and noticing that what he noticed, I did notice, and this is the thing.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I ended up writing the book, Give You Dog a Bound, because I realized that we were seeing more and more health problems, and I just wanted to give a simple way of feeding dogs and cats now.
[SPEAKER_04]: Let's take dog's, for example, because you're asking what is this barftite?
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, it's really an evolutionary food program.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's a better way.
[SPEAKER_04]: Barftains were veins and real food.
[SPEAKER_04]: How that came about was that during my book was published in 1993.
[SPEAKER_04]: And by 1995, the internet was starting to rage.
[SPEAKER_04]: And somebody said to me, have you seen what's going on in the internet?
[SPEAKER_04]: I said, no, what's happening?
[SPEAKER_04]: And they told me, they said, there's all these groups and they're like evangelical Christians.
[SPEAKER_04]: the bridge of book and they're telling people to feed raw and one of those a lady and I can I mentioned a name before so I mentioned her name was Debbie Trip she was a Canadian and she saw all this people going crazy about raw food solving problems and she called them born again raw feeders they are okay
[SPEAKER_04]: And so that's where the word barf came from, that was these born-again rule fetus.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so she then tried it.
[SPEAKER_04]: And she was amazed because she had problems with her German shepherds and all those problems began to clear up.
[SPEAKER_04]: So she was converted, and I looked at this, and I said, well, that's a great echo in this born again in raw feeders.
[SPEAKER_04]: Let's, oh, she called it, then she called it the Bones and Raw Food Diet.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_04]: She called it, once she realized it was significantly useful, she then labelled the Bones and Raw Food Diet.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, let's let's go more scientific because this is a biologically appropriate raw food diet.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, wow.
[SPEAKER_04]: I had a lot of it So that's so that's how it was born again raw feed is bones and raw food then biologically appropriate raw food and that's that was buff
[SPEAKER_04]: Now, but this really is just an evolutionary food program with dogs, dogs, scavengers, by nature.
[SPEAKER_04]: So they slowly food this very high in bacteria, but they also eat a lot of bones.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I realize very early on, as I question people about what they feed and correlated that with their health, that the dogs that were healthy always had a bone-based diet.
[SPEAKER_04]: We know this instinctively, and my book, Give You Dog A Dome is actually, I didn't realize at the time, I nicked, I pinched or stole that name from the nursery rug, nicked back Pennyway, Give You Dog A Dome, and everybody knows that dogs love bones, they'll fight over them.
[SPEAKER_04]: Why?
[SPEAKER_04]: Because they are designed to eat bones.
[SPEAKER_04]: And why are bones so important?
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, first of all, for their structure, you eat bones to form bones.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I looked at this back then and I said, well, I don't know exactly all the reasons that dogs require bones.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I bet we're going to find out more and more as time goes by.
[SPEAKER_04]: And just to give it illustration one of those things,
[SPEAKER_04]: What does cartilage do?
[SPEAKER_04]: If you look, cartilage has got no blood vessels.
[SPEAKER_04]: Cartilage is anti-antiogenic.
[SPEAKER_04]: Why is it what's all that mean?
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, anti-ogenesis is the process by which blood vessels are formed.
[SPEAKER_04]: Cancer cannot grow unless they form a blood supply.
[SPEAKER_04]: And one of the great things about bone-eating adults is they rarely get cancer if they do it's later in life and it's really nasty, it's just a mild form.
[SPEAKER_04]: Why?
[SPEAKER_04]: Because they eat lots of cartilage and the cartilage in the fur that they actually has this anti-ancio genica effect on cancer, it won't allow the cancer to form a blood supply and to grow.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, so is that why dogs who eat highly processed food develop cancers early on?
[SPEAKER_04]: It's one of the reasons.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: One of the reasons.
[SPEAKER_04]: But as I said, I realized early on that there'd be lots of reasons.
[SPEAKER_04]: And we still don't know exactly why bones are so important.
[SPEAKER_04]: If dogs love to eat something, they have to be churned into, by a long process of evolution, to have that love.
[SPEAKER_04]: Some people call it interesting, but it's actually written into their genome.
[SPEAKER_04]: So it's genome-based.
[SPEAKER_04]: If I can, that becomes the most today, the most, I guess, word that people love to use, it's based on their genome.
[SPEAKER_04]: It becomes one of those omic things
[SPEAKER_04]: But hey, it's been there all the time, and the funny thing is, people say, oh, I never give my dog bones, so I've got three or four dogs, they just fight over them.
[SPEAKER_04]: Why does they fight over the bones?
[SPEAKER_04]: Because they need them.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I realized that early on, I had about six dogs at one stage, and the quads of merchants, we had rock rollers, and we had peacantic dogs,
[SPEAKER_04]: I would put a star per suitably spaced apart with a chain on it, tie them all up on a chain at feeding time and give them a put a bone in front of them all, wouldn't let them eat the bone until I told them to, but it was a matter of managing the situation.
[SPEAKER_04]: In fact, it is that if Bones require a dog-require Bones, they should be eating them.
[SPEAKER_04]: And if they fight over them, you have to manage that situation, but don't stop them ate the Bones.
[SPEAKER_04]: Because it's so important.
[SPEAKER_01]: What are the other parts of the Bones?
[SPEAKER_01]: You said the outside is cartilage.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, the hands are cartilage, but of course, there is source of a thing called appetite, which is calcium and phosphorus.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now,
[SPEAKER_04]: If you look at, if you look at a lot of enormous amount of research has been done into getting this calcium phosphorus balance right for dogs.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's using process pet foods where you're going to use artificial sources of calcium.
[SPEAKER_04]: If we supply our dogs with bones and so they're source of calcium and phosphorus, we don't have to worry about that balance.
[SPEAKER_04]: The body doesn't naturally.
[SPEAKER_04]: How many dogs or how many wolves or dingos or whatever wild kinder dog, Pharaoh kinder, has had somebody out there to say, oops, you can stop eating that amount of calcium now?
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, that amount of phosphorus?
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, forget about it.
[SPEAKER_04]: If you're feeding raw meaty bones as the basis of their diet, you have solved
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, many problems, but that's just one problem yourself.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it could be anywhere from about 20% to 80% of the diet of raw meaty bones and to a growing pup and problem solved.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's a non-issue, but if you feed artificial food, it's a real big problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they're putting, so that,
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm a big fan of soups as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when I go to cities, I love, I get to travel the world with doing what I do with dogs, which I'm extremely grateful for.
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the things I love is I look for a good foe place.
[SPEAKER_01]: So like, be it mini soup, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And I love foe, my wife, she's been doing a lot of research on stocks and broths and how good they are because they're basically just taking the bones and they're making the stocks from the nutrients, the bones and now we're drinking.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, a big fan of the foe here in Australia and Sydney,
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you're saying that the new trance and would you say vitamins from the bones?
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what,
[SPEAKER_04]: Pups are the last ones into the feast.
[SPEAKER_04]: What are the adults eat and they're eating mostly the meat and a lot of the organ meat and so on, the pups are left with these bones with cartilage and bits of meat hanging off it and so that's and they're the ones and they hangry and raveness for something so they go for that and they will eat the softer bones, the cartilage they'll eat they see all the seniors so all the connective tissue and everything off those bones whatever else they can get and that's the way they begin life but lots of raw meat
[SPEAKER_04]: That's the basis of the diet for young pups, but it's odd dogs can make that way as well.
[SPEAKER_04]: So what's in a bone?
[SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[SPEAKER_04]: So you've got...
[SPEAKER_04]: I have something like that, I think, where do I begin?
[SPEAKER_04]: It's, it's, and I begin very simply.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's, or pretty well, a complete imbalance type, a raw-moody bone for a dog.
[SPEAKER_04]: With me, aren't it?
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, with me to on it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, even a chicken wing, for example, or chicken neck, all most are complete and balanced type.
[SPEAKER_04]: Pretty, pretty well.
[SPEAKER_04]: In fact, combined with the gut micro biome, which can take most of that and produce
[SPEAKER_04]: and
[SPEAKER_04]: And what's in the bone itself, you've done a pretty good job.
[SPEAKER_04]: In fact, that's why now, just early on, the dogs can just live on raw meaty bones, particularly on pups or on New York, and they're absolutely fine, but let's just break it down a little bit.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, you've got the bone itself with this product called appetite, which is calcium and phosphorus in the form that the body recognizes and can use the balance calcium and phosphorus to produce its own bone.
[SPEAKER_04]: There's all the essential amino acids.
[SPEAKER_04]: There's fat, bones are quite fatty, so there's all the, there's the fat it requires, and the barrow of a bone is hugely high in the essential fatty acids and the blood-forming nutrients.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, and in the fat, of course, of the fat soluble vitamins.
[SPEAKER_04]: The B vitamins are made by the gut and a lot of the B vitamins are in the meat as well.
[SPEAKER_04]: So you've got all of that.
[SPEAKER_04]: The bones are a storage of minerals, so most between the bones and the meats and... Well, that...
[SPEAKER_04]: most of the minerals the animal requires are there.
[SPEAKER_04]: And of course, when you feed the rest of the diet, which is composed of organ meats, ground up vegetable matter, and what I call poo substitutes, and a lot of that is fermented material, but, and without going into a lot of detail here, when you feed that combination of foods, actual foods,
[SPEAKER_04]: you dog has all the foods that the body requires to take the nutrients it requires great one of those foods and balance it out that now it's it's this relationship between this combination of foods in roughly evolutionary balance that produces the nutritional balance the dog requires on a moment to moment basis.
[SPEAKER_04]: The balance is varies moment to moment, but the body stores it, discards it, uses it straight away as long as it is real food.
[SPEAKER_04]: And what I discovered over time was around about for growing dogs,
[SPEAKER_04]: mature dogs, reproducing dogs, around about 60% raw meaty bones, such as chicken wings and necks.
[SPEAKER_04]: Around about 15% raw, crushed, low glycemic index vegetables, 15% organ meat.
[SPEAKER_00]: What would the vegetables be?
[SPEAKER_04]: Low glycemic index.
[SPEAKER_00]: What's that mean to me?
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: Green leaf is and not starts your vegetables.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: Rather like again, we're making the gut contents of an animal.
[SPEAKER_04]: They might bring down.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've got you.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, that makes sense.
[SPEAKER_04]: All read in their entirety.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like a small mouse or a bird, which I would just munch down in one, one complica.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_04]: See it.
[SPEAKER_04]: So organ needs vegetables around about 15% for each of those.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then that tends, rest of the 10%.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now,
[SPEAKER_04]: Let's just think about poof for a second, dogs are what we call copper a phagic, what does that mean?
[SPEAKER_04]: It means that they eat poo.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's normal for dogs to eat poo.
[SPEAKER_04]: So what's in poo?
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, poo is a living food.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now, a lot of people early on clients would come to me and say, look, why dog would prefer to eat its own poo rather than what I feed it?
[SPEAKER_04]: And I'd point out that what they feed it, which was often a terrible dry dog food, a very poor quality, has now been processed by the gut microbes into real living food.
[SPEAKER_04]: So now it's high in essential fatty acids.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's high in first quality protein.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's got the B vitamins and if it's...
[SPEAKER_04]: If they had an eventual material, it's also got fiber in it.
[SPEAKER_04]: So it's actually a very, or my poo now becomes almost a complete balance food.
[SPEAKER_04]: So in poo substitutes, I said, okay, let's look at this.
[SPEAKER_04]: We can throw in maybe some, I call it some good quality eggs.
[SPEAKER_04]: We throw in some kelp.
[SPEAKER_04]: for minerals or alfalfa, we call it luson, powdered up alfalfa or luson.
[SPEAKER_04]: What's good about that?
[SPEAKER_04]: It's a plant that sends its roots down, or rather at 40 feet if it can, into the deep subsoil, that's never been eroded before.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's full of minerals and calps the same, because it's cut all the minerals that have been washed into the sea.
[SPEAKER_04]: So,
[SPEAKER_04]: We now know that a lot of those men, we still don't know what they do, but we know that they're actually important to health because I saw a number of papers by one particular researcher who was treating cancer patients just with these rare minerals and nothing else.
[SPEAKER_04]: And a certain subset of cancer patients just got better just by improving that.
[SPEAKER_04]: So this pool is a source of essential fatty acid, so we might throw in some extra
[SPEAKER_04]: or one of the oily fish, like salmon or krill, and itself, so we try and mimic that pool with some fermented food, and this is where actually I got excited when Rob Ryan contacted me a few years ago.
[SPEAKER_04]: you know, Rob Ryan will.
[SPEAKER_04]: Rob Ryan decided the Gussie's gut line of fermented vegetables.
[SPEAKER_04]: When he told me about that I said, well this is more than a supplement, it's an actual food that makes up for that part of that 10% of food substitutes and it's a very valuable addition to our dog's diet.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I was very happy to support him in that venture.
[SPEAKER_04]: Who substitutes, put in a fermented food, maybe a source of extra protein, like you might throw in some lean veal or something like that, a very good quality, very pure protein, source of essential fatty acids in terms of fish or grill or something.
[SPEAKER_04]: If necessary, and this is really not necessary, so things like B vitamins, but really that's brought in when you produce, when you put liver in the diet, and also if you've got a healthy diet, you've got a healthy microbiome producing, there's anyway, but what I discovered by feeding these simple foods, just foods that you could get around the edge of a supermarket,
[SPEAKER_04]: You have a healthy dog, and it's simple.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is the thing that I want to make clear to people, and I'm still trying to make clear.
[SPEAKER_04]: Feeding this way is simple, mostly raw meaty bones.
[SPEAKER_04]: A little bit of awful material, some vegetable material, and these other healthy foods.
[SPEAKER_04]: and well you've got an absurdly healthy dog because what you're doing is mimicking what evolution has to sign for these dogs to eat.
[SPEAKER_04]: Once you do that you're doing what you do for your cat putting the correct feels, bare parts, feel and all and and servicing and what you see is once you start feeding a dog properly this way
[SPEAKER_04]: I just start to get better.
[SPEAKER_04]: They just start their health and it is appears to be magic, but it's not.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's just the body responding in partnership to the foods that its body is screaming out for.
[SPEAKER_01]: yet.
[SPEAKER_01]: What could you tell like when you let's just say this, well first I want to tell you this, I spent four summers volunteering at a wolf sanctuary in Southern Colorado and there was a wolf there named magpie and she I believe she passed away for either 12 to 14.
[SPEAKER_01]: uh... belief 14 maybe even older not a person she was an older can i and did she was part of an ambassador pack she was a she was a she was a full bread wolf that actually was was uh... neutral people would would in cat would actually go up and and do encounters with with people get a belly rub and walk away wouldn't play with you or anything but um... you can actually get up close to a wolf
[SPEAKER_01]: And they had many wolves, but they only had like four, four, five wolves that you can actually have an encounter with if it will.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so one of the things I noticed with her is when she growled at some of the other wolves, you know, her teeth came way out and I was like, wow, she has such good teeth and they said, well, yeah, because she eats bones all day.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so once I volunteered, they're more, they let me help with the feeding process.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they would take everything from roadkill of the elk, farmer that put down an old horse or something.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anything to fuel the wolves.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's one of the things that I noticed about these animals that were fed over a diet, the bones that they were eating in the raw-hide, the hides that they would eat was polishing and cleaning these teeth.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so the same company back in New York, they have, and I want to ask you about what people can get for bones, but I just want to tell you my experience is this company, Roganix, have these what they call soft bones, which I believe is like a femur part of the cow and it's a more flexible bone for a dog to actually chew up and digest.
[SPEAKER_01]: takes a while, but they call them soft bones.
[SPEAKER_01]: I believe it's the femur because it's more flexible.
[SPEAKER_01]: When you talk about like marrow bone and things like that, these are part of the animal that are holding up this gigantic animal that aren't really meant to be broken down, it can actually probably hurt your dog's teeth more, especially if you cook them.
[SPEAKER_01]: But like, and I noticed when my dogs eat those because back of the day again, I would brush my dogs teeth and stuff and it's probably still good to do, but if you feed some bones in your dog's diet, it actually is an actual way to chip off the tartar and clean your dog's teeth.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I noticed that with the wolves, obviously they're not brushing the wolf's teeth.
[SPEAKER_01]: And these teeth were poorly white at 12, 14 years old, just by eating bones and raw and
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, like the height of the animal, they would give them the full thing, and they would feast in famine, so they would eat a lot of meat, you know, once a week or whatever it was.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so people at home that are listening to this, I think a lot of people can be like, okay, this makes sense, right, and that's what I'm super happy and grateful to have you on.
[SPEAKER_01]: But how can they, because one thing I struggle with when I'm listening to podcasts from people that I not only trust, but believe in, because what you're saying is science, it makes a lot of sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: They have illusion and the part of animals in which their bio and their genome and they're breaking these things down and what they're what they're in session really supposed to be eating.
[SPEAKER_01]: How can they do this?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like when you say bones, because bones sound great.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like when you just told me that, I'm like, okay, bones are great.
[SPEAKER_01]: Where can people go out and get a bone or bones for their dogs right now?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, what do you suggest people do to go to the market or the butcher and get?
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, I don't think the soft bones of the famous because they're actually holding up a lot of weight.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what they are.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: But there is soft bones.
[SPEAKER_04]: They may be rib bones.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_04]: No, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm not sure what I haven't actually heard that expression being used.
[SPEAKER_04]: Soft bones.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: They come.
[SPEAKER_04]: If they just want their dogs, okay, I think we can look at the bones as in two categories, one category where they actually eat the bone, with the benefits of that.
[SPEAKER_04]: And really, you really don't have to go far beyond chicken, eggs and wings, as long as it's from a good source.
[SPEAKER_04]: And Australia, most of the sources are good.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think in America, let's say you've got to go organic, I'm not sure.
[SPEAKER_04]: But preferably, if you can, but not necessarily, it's
[SPEAKER_04]: so that but just putting the question of assuming the origin is reasonable, then they're the bones, they're going to provide marrow, they're going to provide the appetite that I spoke of, there's a cartilage and all those things, so that's fine.
[SPEAKER_04]: Then there's what might be called exercise or recreational bones and bones that would suggest supply cartilage.
[SPEAKER_04]: So there are the big long bones, the females and tibias and so on, from cattle here, they support them, let the cartilage of those.
[SPEAKER_04]: And if you look at a dog eating a bone, they're going to put their feet on it, and this particularly so for young puppies, they're going to eat a lot of isometric exercise, just by planting their feet on their bone and ripping and tearing, and if in a situation
[SPEAKER_04]: of fighting and tearing and wrestling with each other to get the bone off the others.
[SPEAKER_04]: All of that, and I wrote that about that in my book, Grow Your Pups with Bones.
[SPEAKER_04]: So that's all in that book.
[SPEAKER_04]: But so, and this is stuff I observed early on with, I could start to take notice of dogs behavior, particularly with food and they're growing.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, wow, this is just, when you start to look at what how evolution, how dogs have evolved and what evolution has designed for them is how they should live.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's what we should be doing, but it is safe way, and safety is so important.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, a low dogs are designed to eat food that's rich in bacteria.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm not saying that we should go and find food that's absolutely rotten and so on.
[SPEAKER_04]: We've got to find food that is of human standard, but if it's been looked after and hasn't
[SPEAKER_04]: been contaminated heavily with feces or whatever, so it's actually been produced as if it was being produced for a human, that's the food we feed them.
[SPEAKER_04]: And the organ is in that.
[SPEAKER_04]: I usually very beneficial to the animal eating it.
[SPEAKER_04]: The bacteria.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now let me say this too.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm wandering down a rabbit hole here because- Please do.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: bacteria, the immune system.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is a very important.
[SPEAKER_04]: Everybody thinks, well, not everybody, it is widely held opinion that the immune system exists to fight pathogens.
[SPEAKER_04]: It doesn't exist to do that at all.
[SPEAKER_04]: It leaves, it is there to enable us to live in harmony with the microbes that we share the world with.
[SPEAKER_04]: Because we've been sharing the world with microbes since we began.
[SPEAKER_04]: Because we have from microbes.
[SPEAKER_04]: Sorry, I'll pass you the micro-threative.
[SPEAKER_04]: We had derived from microbes.
[SPEAKER_04]: We had derived from an arcaya and a parasite.
[SPEAKER_04]: and the parasite became a mitochondria, and the mitochondria then allowed multicellular animals, and so it went from there.
[SPEAKER_04]: So we have always lived with other organisms, other microorganisms.
[SPEAKER_04]: So the immune system has developed as a way of us to live in harmony with those microorganisms, and to recognize them, and to recognize who might want to do his harm.
[SPEAKER_04]: So,
[SPEAKER_04]: It is a little consequent.
[SPEAKER_04]: In fact, it's a valuable for us in our food to come across someone else, E. Coli, Listeria, Compiler Bacter, whatever.
[SPEAKER_04]: They have to be there because the immune system has to say, oh, I see you there.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to make sure that this other group of organisms is there to keep you under control.
[SPEAKER_04]: As long as I know you're there, I've got the potential to deal with you if you should become naughty.
[SPEAKER_04]: But, and not only that, we're also discovering that these so-called pathogens actually contribute something valuable to us.
[SPEAKER_04]: There has to be a complete rearrangement of our thinking.
[SPEAKER_04]: when it comes to so-called pathogens in food now, currently, we've been forced to sterilize food that's raw because those things may harm us.
[SPEAKER_04]: We're actually doing more harm than good by sterilizing a lot of this food, but that's a whole issue.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I know that's something we can't really do anything about at the moment, but as science, well, as the understanding of science progresses,
[SPEAKER_04]: I think we can be able to do away with that as long as we understand how the body works because we've been feeding raw in Australia without any of that sterilization and only seeing brilliant results.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I want to back up a little bit when you said the raw chicken necks and chicken wings just to be clear for those of you who are listening and watching, those are raw.
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_01]: Once you cook those suckers, it's a whole different ball game, isn't it?
[SPEAKER_04]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_04]: and just think of this, evolution didn't design our dogs to eat cooked food.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right, it's that simple.
[SPEAKER_01]: So how can, because I think one of the scariest things from a dog owner is when you hear, I remember again, I bought my actually was gifted my Dutch shepherd by this breeder, where I'm from in New York and I'm his Chris.
[SPEAKER_01]: and she's just an old she used to show dogs and she's just she's just she's a great person about dogs and little does she know she taught me a lot and a little bit of time right and and one of the things that she did and she just she's like oh I'm gonna go you know we did a trip I did a training session with one of the males that she had that's why she gifted me she said can you come help me with this male she got this um
[SPEAKER_01]: kind of military dropout Dutchy and she's like, he's, she physically couldn't handle them because she was battling some health issues.
[SPEAKER_01]: Jay, if you help me with this, I'm going to breed him to my bitch and I'll give you a pick, pick letter, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: That's okay, cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, after we did a train session, she took out this chicken, it was like a chicken back, they call them.
[SPEAKER_01]: They took it out, she, we're all, you know, as we would get ready to make our our chicken for our dinner,
[SPEAKER_01]: He's touching on it.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's putting it in the back of his mullers and he's crunching these bones and it was just so interesting to see But like wow, and these are beasts.
[SPEAKER_01]: These are animals, you know, and that that's really helped me in my training career like understand dog behavior as well We live in a world now where dogs who don't need to be pushed around in strollers are our
[SPEAKER_01]: and dogs who are in purses and it's really debilitating to the human nature in which they are, which is why they create frustration and anxiety and aggression and territorial issues and all these things, I'm an animal and I'm getting treated like a doll.
[SPEAKER_01]: This doesn't make sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm confused.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm insecure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Go figure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, one of the scariest things I think dog owners
[SPEAKER_01]: have a hard time with this because we've done we've done away with obviously raw food for human beings the chickens and the meat and the fish and to some degree I eat sushi all the time but explain to me this how can how can a dog or a canine or a cat my cat eats raw food which is a whole other
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a situation.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll tell you about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But how can they break down the bacteria that is in raw chicken for an example or raw beef or raw whatever?
[SPEAKER_01]: how can they do that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I think that's the best thing is when you say chicken backs and chicken wings, I know exactly what you're saying.
[SPEAKER_01]: People at home, honestly, I think would go out and get a chicken wing and cook them because they would never, ever, ever think about giving their dog raw chicken because for so many years throughout whole life raw chicken is the devil and we got to be careful and we should, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: But how can animals break these things down and we can't?
[SPEAKER_04]: because they're designed by evolution to eat this fish.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's the simple answer.
[SPEAKER_04]: But a lot of these bugs get through and live in their intestine and live in harmony within their intestine.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: And also, I mean, from a scientific perspective,
[SPEAKER_04]: If you eat a high protein diet, then the body recognizes that it's a high protein diet or one that's high in bones and pours that acid to break that down.
[SPEAKER_04]: In the process, it often destroys a lot of or kills potential if there's a high load say of salmonella that will be destroyed by that heavy load of hydrochloric acid that's
[SPEAKER_04]: But also, in the part of the immune system, it's very kinds of immunoglobulins, and throughout the digestive tract, it's a thing called immunoglobulin A.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that's very powerful in dealing with these pathogenic bacteria with that going into details.
[SPEAKER_04]: And the dog has developed a highly efficient
[SPEAKER_04]: immunoglobulid A system.
[SPEAKER_04]: We have it too, and I read a paper recently that people evolved as scavengers almost as much as dogs and butts.
[SPEAKER_04]: Dogs have been doing it for many millions, many hundreds of millions of years longer than humans.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: So they're better at it than us.
[SPEAKER_04]: They hunt it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: So they've been doing it from year one, basically, from the get-go.
[SPEAKER_04]: We have been, we were more vegetarians as we, as our common ancestor, was like,
[SPEAKER_04]: going back to, well, I would say, one of the great apes from five or six many years ago.
[SPEAKER_04]: Agneanderthal type, take off all fours before in the end of those, because the end of those were very closely related to us.
[SPEAKER_04]: In fact, they're closely related to that, we cross spread.
[SPEAKER_04]: And there are in the end of all genes.
[SPEAKER_04]: And a lot of humans sometimes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, they got the hairy, you know, their bigger hairy area.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then what more browse and all those sort of stuff.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's interesting.
[SPEAKER_04]: There was a lot of friendly relationship between the two.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_04]: But we've been eating that way as scavengers for a lot less for a short period of time.
[SPEAKER_04]: So we're not quite as evolved as our dogs in that direction.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's the short answer.
[SPEAKER_04]: They are designed by evolution to each of these sort of foods and they derive benefit from that sort of food.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is the point I've been trying to make and their immune system has evolved to live in harmony with those organisms.
[SPEAKER_04]: And...
[SPEAKER_04]: to co-operate with those organisms, for the benefit of both the organism and themselves.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hmm, let's just say this, like somebody's listening to this, they go, okay, this makes sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: A raw diet makes sense for my canine.
[SPEAKER_01]: How would you do it?
[SPEAKER_01]: You get your chicken back so you get your necks or you get your bones from the grocery store You put it you get it.
[SPEAKER_01]: What do you do?
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you put it in a bowl?
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you throw it outside?
[SPEAKER_01]: What do you do?
[SPEAKER_01]: What talk to people like they you know the person that's listening to this?
[SPEAKER_01]: Understands what we're saying?
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, I develop what's what we might call the bone the bath program.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, and the bath program and this is what I do with my dogs.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, this is what we do
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, just going to step back a fraction, I was a raw food producer for many years.
[SPEAKER_04]: We had a company, we produced food, we exported it around the world to a lot of different places.
[SPEAKER_04]: And by the way, we just produced health.
[SPEAKER_04]: But what was this raw food?
[SPEAKER_04]: We produced it in a petty format.
[SPEAKER_04]: So that 60% raw meaty bones, 15% vegetable material, 15% awful and 15% or 10% of things that kind of poor substitutes will put together in a big grinder ground together mixed up and then frozen into patty format.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now, when I retired from veterinary business, I was providing that company for a number of years, then decided to sell them and just concentrate on lecturing, writing and teaching.
[SPEAKER_04]: So where do I get my food from?
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, it became a real pain to buy my own products.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I went out and purchased a simple, was a commercial grinding machine.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's a factor of illustrators.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's available in Australia.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't think it's this particular one's available in America, but it's a Euro chef, a Euro CHF.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's about so EAB, it's quite heavy.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it will do 250 kilograms of meat and bones.
[SPEAKER_01]: now you and your kilograms.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I'm kidding you get I'm kidding people getting people can do the mega pretty so fun.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, a kilogram is 2.2 pounds.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there you go.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just so funny because every you know, I've been over here for a month and everyone's talking kilograms and it's just so funny.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're like yeah, the dog was this many kilograms.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like that means nothing to me.
[SPEAKER_04]: Malibu fly by 2.2 and you've got the pounds.
[SPEAKER_04]: There you go.
[SPEAKER_04]: Or just double it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: For approximation.
[SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, so what I do, I go to the butcher or a local meat co-op, I buy chicken wings and necks.
[SPEAKER_04]: I might buy some pork strips.
[SPEAKER_04]: I might buy a big round of beef.
[SPEAKER_04]: If I can, there'll be some kangaroo made there.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'll get kidney, I'll get liver, I'll get heart.
[SPEAKER_00]: So those are the organs you get, you get the regular meat and then you get the organs.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_04]: And the raw meaty bones in the form of chicken wings and eggs.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, I come home and I have a source of kelp because that's a great source of the
[SPEAKER_04]: I'll have a you're not cook in the eggs.
[SPEAKER_04]: No, no, no.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: Speaking to her.
[SPEAKER_04]: Nothing's cool.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is raw.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'll ground up, put through a juice, a vegetable material, a low glycemic index.
[SPEAKER_04]: No stashy stuff, just above ground.
[SPEAKER_01]: So ground to alfalfa or spinach kale Oh, that's all the stuff.
[SPEAKER_04]: I made a bit of fruit leafy and green.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you can buy that.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can buy that.
[SPEAKER_01]: It ground up already.
[SPEAKER_04]: Is that something?
[SPEAKER_04]: No, I put through a juicer.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: So you're juicing this and then re combining the juice and the pop.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, got it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: What do you do?
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you drink the juice yourself or do you know you can put you can drink that in.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, put that in.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: I got it.
[SPEAKER_04]: See, venture with dogs can't digest venture material.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's why when the carrots that poop carrots out.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_04]: Exactly right.
[SPEAKER_04]: But if you put it through a juicer, they have all that fiber plus the contents.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now the contents are now released and become brilliant food in the inner of themselves.
[SPEAKER_04]: And you can feed
[SPEAKER_04]: During the war, something similar was kept dogs alive.
[SPEAKER_04]: The gut contents from advertised were fed to dogs.
[SPEAKER_04]: So the room and all content, basically, tribe contents.
[SPEAKER_04]: And they kept dogs, I was spoken to people from that era who kept their dogs on that, in fact, they were germically incarcerated in England, who cared Rotweils.
[SPEAKER_04]: And they bred them, just feeding them that alone.
[SPEAKER_04]: So the juice is brilliant food.
[SPEAKER_04]: Fiber cell wall that has been released by the juicing process and now is in the pulp, that becomes a pre-biotic.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what Gussie's got is that we're talking about that's basically a superfood that has all of that.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_04]: And we just have that in.
[SPEAKER_04]: In our case, it's not fermented.
[SPEAKER_04]: We're throwing a bit of a key for and or yoga to get a bit of that fermented idea.
[SPEAKER_04]: And by the way, people think dairy is not suitable for dogs.
[SPEAKER_04]: that we can't tell that to a wolf because for millions of years a wolf will one of the principal sources of food would be young calf or a young deer who suckled on mummary simply with gunned contents of milk curdled milk and the tummy.
[SPEAKER_04]: So yeah and so so all of this goes into the patty.
[SPEAKER_04]: So it's all ground up mixed into the patty.
[SPEAKER_01]: Red dog closer to the mic.
[SPEAKER_04]: I can't.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, sorry.
[SPEAKER_04]: You're okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't want this anything
[SPEAKER_04]: I tend to get a bit excited and they're all over the place.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm excited to hear exactly, I just want to be over here, yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: So we put all that grind up mix and form patties in roughly those proportions.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it varies from week to week depending on what we find at the local market, by the way, my dogs are never sick, thank goodness.
[SPEAKER_04]: And they're very resistant to worms and ticks of heart worms and so on, but that's another
[SPEAKER_04]: we will give for Almighty Bones, the other male pet is bicycling.
[SPEAKER_01]: There are various around of it too.
[SPEAKER_01]: And how are you mass producing this for the month or the week?
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, we are mass producers.
[SPEAKER_04]: We'll do a big ball, several.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know if it might be 10 kilos.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, and then 20 pounds.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there you go, 22 pounds.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I'm getting there.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's like a meal prepping.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and what I'll do that may be once a month and and we do and I might that's quite suitable as cat food and dog food and also I'll just sometimes just grind up, um, I might just take some chicken breasts or we do actually and grind it so that the first thing in on or
[SPEAKER_04]: We put them into a plastic bag, and you can recycle these bags.
[SPEAKER_04]: You drop them into the plastic bag, and as a ball, then you're flatten it out, and then you just fold it over.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then you freeze that as a flat, I don't know, as a flat patty.
[SPEAKER_04]: So that's the way you form it.
[SPEAKER_04]: And when you take it out, it thaws out very quickly, because it's very thin.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I got you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, exactly.
[SPEAKER_04]: We're making a snitty, that's right, but it was just very popular here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they're everywhere.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's true.
[SPEAKER_01]: At home, they're not really.
[SPEAKER_01]: You had chicken chicken parmesan and that's about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe a cutlet here and there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but.
[SPEAKER_04]: So we do that.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so add dogs and cats eat that way.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so.
[SPEAKER_01]: If somebody doesn't, is there any recommendations that you can give people who it says, wow, Dr. Villainer, that sounds pretty overwhelming.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to grind up my own dog food bubblebot.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, is there, and you found that a reputable dog food is manufactured?
[SPEAKER_01]: Where, what, what, what should you be looking for for a raw food company?
[SPEAKER_01]: because there's there's companies who who who cook it right and they say hey this is a better free than cable which is probably right so there's companies like that and there's companies like we feed raw that deliver it right to your door and you could maybe go to your local pet shop name may have stuff is there anything that you should be looking for red flags or do you just say raw food is better than anything?
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, as long as they're using actual bone and not putting in some calcium thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Got it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when you look at on the package, what should you be looking for?
[SPEAKER_04]: It's the back of the ground up bone and it's an actual real, whole, raw bone ground up.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's probably the most, and then of course, all good mate and the straight muscle mate and so on.
[SPEAKER_04]: With a for a dog, a fairly hard proportion of bone, ground up.
[SPEAKER_04]: Got it.
[SPEAKER_04]: And if they don't,
[SPEAKER_04]: because they've got the rest of it there, they do feel one meal of chicken wings, which you can just, and we buy our chicken wings, bog, again, yeah, freeze them in small portions so we can pull them out, pop in the fridge overnight, let them throw out and then feed them the next morning.
[SPEAKER_01]: And what's the, back when I started feeding raw, kind of by myself, and now, you know, working with beef, you'd rather give me like the sizing.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a, it's a 16 ounce thing and it's easy for me because I have a, I have a board.
[SPEAKER_01]: B-O-E-R-B-O-E-L. No?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a South African mastiv.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Big boy.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's four pounds.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's easy for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, what's the recommendation?
[SPEAKER_01]: I know it varies from athletic dog to couch-patate, it's a senior dog, but is there a website or anywhere that people can go to say, how much should I be feeding raws?
[SPEAKER_04]: How much you feed enough food to maintain the waste and body condition that you want?
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so you're kind of looking at the dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: You wing it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's safe.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's off.
[SPEAKER_01]: How else?
[SPEAKER_04]: Anything else is ridiculous.
[SPEAKER_01]: One thing I noticed about raw food with my dogs is kind of all over the place, but was the hydration.
[SPEAKER_01]: So once I started feeding, I had a St. Bernard at the time when I started feeding raw food, like really getting into it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he used to drink a lot, like they're known for just being big, slavory, drool, or jelly dogs.
[SPEAKER_01]: He started eating raw food, and he maybe went to the water and whole at my house, maybe once or twice a day.
[SPEAKER_01]: versus all the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: So why does a rod die at hydrate dogs more because as well.
[SPEAKER_04]: Dogs are not designed to eat this terrible dried dog food.
[SPEAKER_04]: They're designed to eat food with water and electrolytes because food has got that right balance of electrolytes.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's kind of like, duh.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's simple.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is what I try to tell people.
[SPEAKER_04]: It is so simple and it's not hard.
[SPEAKER_04]: In fact, there are people out there who are,
[SPEAKER_04]: flogging or all, all flogging themselves as raw, what I call raw gurus, but they want to say that it's difficult because they want to follow Africa and every meal has to be complete and balance at all that rubbish and it's a myth, it's, it's not true.
[SPEAKER_04]: If the food is in evolutionary balance over time, then the body does the risk.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now that makes sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: And what would you say to somebody who goes to the veterinarian, and the vet says, you shouldn't your dog shouldn't be on raw food because it's bad.
[SPEAKER_01]: Other than ignore them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is there anything
[SPEAKER_01]: that that you can help veterinarians like if a client has a good relationship to vet this hey actually besides this podcast hey actually you should you should look into this like resources or any like one liners you can give people because that's a big thing because like we talked about earlier if the if the veterinarians are not educated and in fact actually being whispered by the people who are funding some of the things that they're their schools
[SPEAKER_01]: then there'd be in told it's actually bad.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you have any advice for dog owners like what they can say?
[SPEAKER_04]: One of the, I think was 2000 and that was not in 1998.
[SPEAKER_04]: We spent three months lecturing across America and what I emphasized to people was that you're going to have to educate
[SPEAKER_04]: nicely and sensibly.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I think you have to say, look, I've actually looked into this.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I've been feeding this way for a while now, and I've seen these improvements in my dog.
[SPEAKER_04]: What I'd like you to do is to help me monitor what's going on with my dog.
[SPEAKER_04]: Let's dis, dis, dis,
[SPEAKER_04]: Also warn you vet at this point that things like BUN and creatinine, there are certain things that will be different, raised in fact, in a dog being fed raw.
[SPEAKER_04]: But this is something that we all need to learn more about, including our vets.
[SPEAKER_04]: So it's going to be a matter of actually talking to you vet.
[SPEAKER_04]: as an educated, sensible person who and you as that and the vet as that and saying can you please help me because I want to do this, can we just do it and we can learn together.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think it has to be in a matter of kindness, of sincerity.
[SPEAKER_04]: Nothing war like about it, it's no matter of cooperation and talking sensibly.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's the only way, because we're all human beings, and we all need to learn.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I think if we approach our vets properly with an attitude of cooperation and a spirit of teamwork, and can we learn about this together, because I believe it has some merit out.
[SPEAKER_04]: from a lot for a lot of reasons without going into any detail.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think that's the spirit we need to take to our vets.
[SPEAKER_01]: I agree as the same thing we're training to.
[SPEAKER_01]: I found a lot of veterinarians will recommend certain training protocols, but I have to remind dog owners probably like your stance on nutrition for veterinarians, being a veterinarian yourself, is that veterinarians
[SPEAKER_01]: Especially in the States, I always asked the veterinarians who were on my show, I say, how much education did you get on behavior?
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's little to none.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when I mean none, I think the most education they've had on behavior, I believe it was Michigan State or Michigan University.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was a seven day program on behavior.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that was it out of, you know,
[SPEAKER_01]: vet school and so that's the same that's the same principle.
[SPEAKER_01]: I say I said you got to take that with the green salt because these people Who are who are there to help you save your dog's life or fix your dog's torn legament or whatever Don't have the same education.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's so it's it is a hard thing for vets because
[SPEAKER_01]: We, you know, just like our doctors and they say, hey, um, heat more of this less of this, take this, you know, blah, blah, blah, and it's like, okay, but when we go to them for open heart surgery for our dog, we've put our full trust in them because that's, that's your job, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Is it, did you did surgery or when you were practicing, you did.
[SPEAKER_01]: really.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_01]: Did he probably have time to do anything else?
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, we did also.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's only removed chimmers.
[SPEAKER_04]: It fixed broken bones.
[SPEAKER_04]: Cleaned out ears.
[SPEAKER_04]: Parades did dentistry.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's the whole, the whole works.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hmm.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think when I bring my dog to you and you say, hey, your dog is a tumor and needs to be removed, I would be like, thank God for for that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, send me the bill and
[SPEAKER_01]: And then, when we go in and we say, hey, my dog's gaining weight or my dog's teeth are starting to build up tartar or whatever, then of course we have the same trust in them when they say you should go on and again to be clear being a veterinarian yourself.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not a malicious thing, it's just an ignorance thing because they learned when they went to school that this is the diet that we should be recommending and talking to our clients about for many reasons and they don't realize that it and it has become kind of this backdoor thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: without without veterinarians noticing it and you sniffed out the BS, you were like, wait a minute, I see what's going on here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Not only from your own point of view from your dogs, when you start feeding them processed food, you also started to see the decline in them, but you also saw in the veterinarian care here in Australia, that as soon as this new food sort of come into your country, you also noticed, wait a minute.
[SPEAKER_01]: What's going on here with the decline in the cancers and the diseases and all these things started to pop in?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I think that that's the big thing for dog owners as they go into their vet going.
[SPEAKER_01]: Whatever you say, I'll do and they don't question anything and a lot of times they shouldn't because that's why you paid all the money and spent all the time going to school.
[SPEAKER_01]: But nutrition is a completely different ballgame.
[SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that is a major problem.
[SPEAKER_04]: And nutrition is the foundation of health and very sadly that's where our veterinary profession is poorly trained.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hmm, what's the deal with the gut biome?
[SPEAKER_01]: Have you, how much research have you done on that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I want to give you context really quick.
[SPEAKER_01]: My dog burly, my, my, my, my, my boreble.
[SPEAKER_01]: I recently realized actually, and it's maybe stupidity on my end that I didn't, I didn't ask these questions.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I got him very, very, very specific.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's a very, very protective dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's supposed to be protecting livestock in South Africa.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you can imagine what he's up against out there down there over there.
[SPEAKER_01]: wherever, I don't know where I am, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, no, it's shy of you know what I'm talking about.
[SPEAKER_01]: So one of the things that had happened is he had a lot of skin issues, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I've been dealing with that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I talked to his breeder.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I know as breeder, I went to Texas to pick him up, flew him back, a whole nine.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I had worked with the breed before.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're very particular breeds, not good pets at all.
[SPEAKER_01]: People shouldn't get them.
[SPEAKER_01]: And one of the things that the breeder said, shout out to Derrick, he said, well, one thing I'm noticing.
[SPEAKER_01]: is both of his mom and his dad were born in South Africa.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so when they come to the States, especially in New York where it gets negative 20 degrees, and we have all sorts of different pollins and things going on, and he says, I think that that's really disrupting
[SPEAKER_01]: They're all are disrupting their allergies, they're biome because both the genetics in the in the the way that the dog I don't I don't know if I'm I'm saying this right, but you probably picking up when I'm putting down the the environment in which the mom and dad both lived in for the genetics past that was in South Africa.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_01]: And now I transfer that puppy to upstate New York and his whole body is going what?
[SPEAKER_04]: This environment is not what my body is designed for.
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: So one of the things that I've been looking into is, like, biome and helping with it because he had dermatitis because he, he, he, he, he, he.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's eating raw, he, he ate raw foods since I got them.
[SPEAKER_01]: But what the breeder said is he said, I've never had any of my puppies do well.
[SPEAKER_01]: Any of my puppies.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've ever, not just his pairing, his mom and dad, any of the boroughs did well with raw food.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the thing is I just kind of found I for some reason I just thought because mom and dad were in Texas that they were born in Texas because they're I mean they're huge dogs, they're not they were both born in South Africa and so.
[SPEAKER_01]: biome animal biome legacy or something like that, where they basically, I'm interested to get your opinion on this, they have a pill that takes the biome of a good dog's got.
[SPEAKER_01]: a good biome, feces.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you look on the bottle, it says, canine feces and a pill and I give it to my dog and from an uneducated dog owner who's just trying to help and these people are great, they sent shout out to them, I'll put the link in the description because they sent me this but and I did a podcast with Rodney Habib and we talked about this but one of the things that they were talking about was if you take the good gut biome of a good dog,
[SPEAKER_01]: And then kind of put it, because sometimes they do it regularly too.
[SPEAKER_01]: She put it around the dogs butt, I guess.
[SPEAKER_01]: But this is a pill.
[SPEAKER_04]: The fecal transplants.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what was the deal with all that?
[SPEAKER_04]: It would work.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's been, I just laughed.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's only been, uh, it'll be a month when I get home.
[SPEAKER_04]: Look, I have heard reports of people say with Alzheimer's, or I have heard reports of people with Alzheimer's been given to from somebody without Alzheimer's and recovering.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I don't think we, we are.
[SPEAKER_04]: We know that there's an enormous connection between the gut and the brain.
[SPEAKER_04]: The connection is enormous.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't think we know anything about this connection as yet.
[SPEAKER_04]: And between the gut and health.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I know that a lot of the early studies with using probiotics in various formats.
[SPEAKER_04]: to anybody that had any person or animal that had a problem, that to continually feed that probiotic, had to be a constant source.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, not conversely, but on the other hand, in my own experience with animals, simply by feeding them the correct food, we just see all these problems improved.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now, I can only assume
[SPEAKER_04]: that by feeding the right food, you are now feeding or encouraging the grace of the right bacteria.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: And the right organisms in the gut.
[SPEAKER_04]: That, but I don't know, I really don't.
[SPEAKER_04]: and I don't know anything about the breed or and you don't apparently know this either.
[SPEAKER_04]: What its parents have been fed for generations.
[SPEAKER_04]: That may have produced a particular situation where this breed, its genetics, now requires particular foods and I don't know what they may be.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and that that was it too.
[SPEAKER_01]: I should have asked, you know, that's a good point.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to ask now like what they ate because he and the environment in terms of the the former and Florida live with it and the soil.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, yeah, there's this it might be a very specific breed problem you have here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I think it is because he said that his puppies have never done good with raw, but I'm he's good now, but that's a whole other thing because he unfortunately ate a stick.
[SPEAKER_01]: Cut his esophagus had a massive infection.
[SPEAKER_01]: got intervened in about and then another load of two other antibiotics to go home with so now is skin is perfect but it's got biomes probably ruined right well it's it's it's been it's out of whack but you should be able to get it back into whack
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to try to, I just looked it up, the animal, so the animal biome is the company that we're talking about.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's called a FMT, and so it's a fecal transplant.
[SPEAKER_04]: But ideally, you would think that for this dog, you need to go back to Africa, find similar animals healthy at that breed.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that would be a good YouTube video.
[SPEAKER_04]: And go and grab the poo from them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that would be interesting.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's what you need to do.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then have you have a bit of a constant source of it and see if that makes a difference.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then stop it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_01]: That would be interesting.
[SPEAKER_04]: There you go.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, let me ask you this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to tell you this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to tell you this story.
[SPEAKER_01]: My cat.
[SPEAKER_01]: He He's about 14 almost 15 and I just got him.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was dog sitting at the time and the dad killed everything except him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, bottom home, he thinks he's a dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: So seeing the effects of raw food for my dogs, the same company that I was using back in the day, Roganix made a cat food.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, they're little nuggets, chicken, and all the things.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, when I first started feeding them, he refused for about three or four days.
[SPEAKER_04]: He's okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, very defiant, stubborn.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, he wants his friskees, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And the friskees was died, corn.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was almost all corn.
[SPEAKER_01]: I look at the back of the bed.
[SPEAKER_04]: Life would beautifully.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And anyway, look at the bag.
[SPEAKER_01]: It has salmon and chicken and the cats love it, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, so I get the, so he refused, refused, refused.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then one day, he ate it.
[SPEAKER_01]: and I'm not kidding you and I've told this story before, but he is a savage.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he went from eating his frisky's, you know, just a little scoop every morning every night, eat, eat with the dogs.
[SPEAKER_01]: Once he ate raw food, I'm not exaggerating.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have to put everything away in the counters.
[SPEAKER_01]: He will he will, if I go like, you know, having young kids, one of them has to go potty or, you know, whatever,
[SPEAKER_01]: If we leave dinner out at all, like even the pans that we cooked with and walk away, he's up on there eating it.
[SPEAKER_01]: He will take, if he doesn't know you, he will jump up and take the sandwich off.
[SPEAKER_01]: He will, like, I have my own treats, they're called knobs, and, you know, when we bring him home for photos or from training the dogs,
[SPEAKER_01]: At night, he'll break the the bag open and eat what's inside.
[SPEAKER_01]: So for whatever reason and this is not even a question.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just I just want to let you know, maybe if you have been put on this for whatever reason when we switched into a raw diet.
[SPEAKER_01]: He turned into a monster like he loved he will eat everything so I don't know if it was.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why haven't you showed me real food my whole life now I'm going to eat everything or what yes, that's the unexplonation.
[SPEAKER_01]: it's in like my wife who's out here now watching and listening probably she she can't stand it because she'll go away to you know going the other room to grab her phone and he'll be up there he'll take her he'll take her whole meal right off and he'll run away with it right the dogs are chasing him and I'm chasing him and he'll just scarf it right down it's it's really incredible but one thing about cats
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, again, just as like my, my input on this on this, uh, what dogs and animals and cats are supposed to be eating is this interesting because when a cat, even a kitten at let's say 10 to 15 weeks whatever whenever they start to become real animals.
[SPEAKER_01]: They'll go out and they'll put their butt in the ground and they'll wiggle and they'll go and they'll attack a bird or attack a chipmunk or rabbit depending on how big they are and they'll eat the whole thing and nobody's like batting an eyelash at that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I go, yeah, that's what cats do.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, well, but dogs will do the same thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like dogs will do that too.
[SPEAKER_01]: morbidly, you know, pretty much anything, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: They'll do it to other dogs.
[SPEAKER_01]: They'll do it to cats.
[SPEAKER_01]: They'll do it to rabbits.
[SPEAKER_01]: They'll do it to chip mugs.
[SPEAKER_01]: They'll do it to anything they can get a hold of.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so for years, like even doing my research and working with people who work with street dogs, like a lot of times they just go and scavenge and delete whatever they need to in their healthy and they're happy.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they live long.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: But isn't that interesting that when a cat goes and kills a mouse and rings it back home, or we're kind of disgusted, but we're not surprised, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: But then when we want to feed our dog, ground up chicken, it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, no, no, no, no, no, no, that doesn't make sense.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's just brainwashing.
[SPEAKER_04]: We accepted the cats and all of the good cannibal.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[SPEAKER_04]: We just accepted it, and that's what they do.
[SPEAKER_04]: They hunt us on their killers.
[SPEAKER_04]: They kill us.
[SPEAKER_01]: What would you recommend?
[SPEAKER_01]: Could you recommend any?
[SPEAKER_01]: raw food like I'm sorry, any cable like is there any process?
[SPEAKER_01]: That's it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's all in here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Could you recommend any type of like, is it all Australia?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it, is it, could you?
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess what I'm trying to end here with is, do you have any companies like in the States?
[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, I'm affiliated.
[SPEAKER_01]: We feed raw talk about them all the time, but is there any companies that you know here on Australia or in the UK or in America?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is there any places that you recommend that people can can go or do you just kind of say, hey, just do your own research?
[SPEAKER_01]: But as long as it's balanced type thing or that's what I say.
[UNKNOWN]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: and talk to me about the the billion-hurst institutions that's on your Instagram that are you give so tell me about that all that you do it okay i was approached by our good friend Rob Ryan who said after we talked many times about raw he said you need to get this out there we need to produce a program of teaching people about raw so that's what I've
[SPEAKER_04]: We just take you through where this all began for me personally, how dogs and cats most well, both species evolved and what they evolved to eat and why and how and then I take you through how to do that sensibly and what it entails in terms of the nutrition.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's kind of like... Is it online?
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's a billing host institute, and that's billing host dot institute, WW dot billing host dot.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll put it in the show now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you can.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think this.
[SPEAKER_04]: If I look at it.
[SPEAKER_04]: But having producers, there's 40, 50 hours of just straight lectures.
[SPEAKER_04]: At the end of it, you can't say, Ah!
[SPEAKER_04]: Suddenly I get it, and it's really simple.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: All the stuff he said right at the beginning, now I know why I should do it, and how I should do it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Even though I told you right at the beginning, this is what you should do, as I've basically told you on this program.
[SPEAKER_04]: But at the end of it, when it's been through it, and you've,
[SPEAKER_04]: answer all the questions that people have, as was designed to do, you understand why raw is the only way to feed, if you want to healthy animal, and why you should feed that way, but how simple it is to do, and you're not
[SPEAKER_04]: You're not tying up on nutrients because this is a food-based program, not a nutrient-based.
[SPEAKER_04]: All of nutrition, if you pay HD in a certain period in animal nutrition, and they're employed by people like Hills and all the major pet food companies, that's who employ them.
[SPEAKER_04]: By the time you've got through this, you will, and what they are interested in is nutrients and balancing nutrients.
[SPEAKER_04]: What this course about is balancing food.
[SPEAKER_04]: Your balance of food and nutrients follow.
[SPEAKER_04]: Trying to do it the other way around and say what nutrients do a dog does a dog made.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now that's the so called, that's me.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's the scientific approach, but what I call nutritionism, you don't need nutritionism.
[SPEAKER_04]: You need evolutionary food balance.
[SPEAKER_04]: Once you have evolutionary food balance, all the nutrients
[SPEAKER_04]: The body works as a partner with the food to balance out the nutritional requirements.
[SPEAKER_04]: It is that simple.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that's a course online.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's a course online, like anybody can do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you get a certificate after.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's amazing.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think that's our cue because it's probably your wife telling you hey, what the heck are you?
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[SPEAKER_01]: So thank you so much for coming on.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know that you don't come into Australia doing dog training seminars.
[SPEAKER_01]: This was a huge, huge bonus, but honestly, a significant part of the trip.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I appreciate all the people who, you know, because we had your people talk to my people.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then we made it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And of course, we booked this
[SPEAKER_01]: absolute pleasure.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've heard a lot about you and I'm really glad I got the sit down and chat with you and I will link your books and the Billinghurst Institute program that we just spoke about.
[SPEAKER_01]: Everything will be in the show notes for people.
[SPEAKER_01]: So thank you so much for hanging out with us and I'll link your website and your social media and all that stuff.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well thank you Tom for having me on.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's been a great pleasure and great really interesting to talk to you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah yeah thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Alright guys thank you so much for listening and watching and we'll talk to you