[SPEAKER_04]: Today, if you not only want to learn more about attachment theory, but also have some very direct practical tools to close that gap in your relationship, stay tuned, we're interviewing an expert, TIE skipsen.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hello all and welcome to the Relationship Innovation Podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am Tara Kerwin.
[SPEAKER_04]: And my name is EJ Kerwin and we are super excited to welcome Ty East Gibson to the podcast today.
[SPEAKER_04]: Ty East is a leading expert in attachment theory and she's the founder of the Personal Development School.
[SPEAKER_04]: where she's helped millions of people better understand their patterns in relationships.
[SPEAKER_04]: In this conversation, we're gonna explore how attachment, emotional safety, and nervous system responses, shape, connection.
[SPEAKER_04]: Welcome, TIE's.
[SPEAKER_01]: Before we started recording, we were talking like, a lot of our audience loves the idea of like, oh my gosh, we can still get to secure attachment from like this place of like avoidance or anxiety.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we're like, yes, and now we have an expert in the field to talk about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I do think like before we go there, what made you do what you're doing?
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh my gosh, I mean, how long do we have?
[SPEAKER_02]: To be honest, I grew up in just the home where there was a lot of chaos, a lot of ups and downs, a lot of fighting, a lot of stuff, things I saw at a young age and the very long story is just that I think I internalized it all as a child and really kind of sponge it all up and I was the eldest of two kids and really kind of took the brunt of a lot of being in the middle.
[SPEAKER_02]: having a knee surgery.
[SPEAKER_02]: Soccer was like my coping mechanism growing up and all I wanted was to get like a D1 soccer scholarship as a kid and leave Canada and go to the U.S. and kind of like get away from it all and got a bad knee surgery and one of my scouting years and just became immediately addicted to opioids after they were prescribed to man.
[SPEAKER_02]: And went through like a six year struggle with sort of daily opioid use and tried inpatient rehab and outpatient rehab
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, I did go to university and get a soccer scholarship and I was like just hanging on by a thread on the inside, like my life was just like chaos and a mess and I would go to rehab and in the summers and nothing was really working so well for me and then somebody said to me, that pretty much a rock bottom, time of my life, your conscious mind can't out will or overpower your subconscious mind.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think one of the hardest parts at least for me in being an active addiction was all the times you're like, I'm going to get clean.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to change my life.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to delete people's numbers for my phone.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to and I would tell myself all these things that I was going to do.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I would just always fail and always go back to the same patterns.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that there was like a special kind of torment in that for me, like a special kind of like helplessness to myself.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so when I heard somebody say that, it was like so relieving.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was like, oh, so this part of me,
[SPEAKER_02]: that can't seem to have changed.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not because I'm weaker and capable or not good enough.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's because the subconscious part of me wants to numb.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the conscious part of me is the part of me saying, OK, get sober, change your life, get back on track.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I got really obsessed with learning about the subconscious mind.
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's still lots of ups and downs in the journey from that point forward, but eventually through doing a programs and NA
[SPEAKER_02]: a lot of good resources for myself, but honestly really learning how the subconscious mind worked and how to rewire and what was happening there for me, I got sober and it was like extremely life-changing and I got really interested first before even went into the relationships space about like what is our condition and how does our condition affect us, how does our subconscious mind work and
[SPEAKER_02]: I did 13 certifications and everything from like hypnotherapy, to neurolinguistic programming, to CBT, to somatic experiencing, like really got interested in just all of that stuff, and nerded out and just honestly became like addicted to learning about all of that, as my next coping mechanism for a while, and then, yeah, it came full circle, and to sort of finish the story, I guess, I was so amazed and how helpful it was for me, and I couldn't believe, I mean, I'm
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm 35 now, and this was like, I got sober at 20 years old, 20 and a half years old, and so it's been a long time, but I just, at around 21, I was like, why is nobody talking about the subconscious mind, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like 14 years ago, or however long ago, nobody cared, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like nobody was talking about the subconscious mind, as much of a mainstream way.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I would just go out and give these free workshops to people, and be like, hey, like, I have everybody needs to learn about the subconscious mind, because it was so life changing, I just wanted to share it with people.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that led to all these people,
[SPEAKER_02]: And I feel like I'm still in school.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm 21 years old.
[SPEAKER_02]: And people will be like, we don't care.
[SPEAKER_02]: We love the workshop.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's like, you know, take us as a client.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I started accidentally my practice working with people about 14 years ago.
[SPEAKER_02]: That turned into like a two-year weight list, and then eventually tried to package stuff and put it online for people who were on the way list, which was then turned into our personal development.
[SPEAKER_02]: School programs, and that was kind of the way everything sort of unfolded.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're freaking amazing.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're awesome.
[SPEAKER_01]: That you did this from like, I mean, right, same story of the agent, and we created this couple's counseling center in our podcast based on like our complete meltdown.
[SPEAKER_01]: As a couple and then like saying we have to like help others, but we have to help ourselves first and I just love that you took You're suffering healed it and then now you're impacting like millions of people and I have to share something with I just connected this dot.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you have a free attachment quiz style on your website?
[SPEAKER_04]: She does.
[SPEAKER_01]: You are her QR code is in my RNR at home and in office manual for people to do their attachment style quizzes when we're going through their genograms and timelines.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, nice.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just put that together.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sorry.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's amazing.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's my favorite one.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've gone through so many different ones.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, this is the one we have to use.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I really appreciate that.
[SPEAKER_04]: When you were telling your story around addiction, I was just thinking like just how applicable that is to couples and how they fall over and over again into patterns, whether it's in relationship to relationship or just in their primary relationship.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then they feel like shit about it, like over and over and over and over again.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh my God, we were gonna communicate in healthy ways, we were gonna make each other a priority.
[SPEAKER_04]: and they just keep falling unconsciously into these patterns.
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's why I've got to obsess with doing all this.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's actually what?
[SPEAKER_02]: So when I started doing a lot of like in our work, I started by doing a lot of core wound and trigger rewiring.
[SPEAKER_02]: So a lot of like, I'll be abandoned and I'll be betrayed.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll be trapped on these like wounds that we acquire from childhood.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I took like what I was learning in cognitive behavioral therapy that way, but then how do we actually drive that down to the subconscious and even unconscious mind.
[SPEAKER_02]: And learning about like rewiring and neuroplastic, you know, to actually change those things more permanently rather than think through them and cognitive reframe them when they come up, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And so that was initially a lot of the work that I did and then learning your needs and how to meet your own needs and how to self-suit accordingly, how to regulate your nervous system.
[SPEAKER_02]: That was actually the work I did at the beginning.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then what was so funny.
[SPEAKER_02]: is a couple years into doing that work I met my husband so about 11 years ago.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I thought I was like so healed.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was like, oh, I'm so healed.
[SPEAKER_02]: I comes up to a long day.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then, you know, but I was also really single.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was coming out of being an active addiction.
[SPEAKER_02]: I felt all this peace on my own but I hadn't actually been in like a serious relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: And when I started, you know, things got more serious with him, I was like, ooh, I still have these kind of themes here that are interesting where,
[SPEAKER_02]: I would treat instead of speaking up or I don't share my needs or my boundaries are a little bit porous.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I, you know, didn't have the best boundaries, and I realized that like, oh, interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've been doing all this work here around like rewiring your triggers, regulating your nervous system, learning to self-suit through knowing your needs and meeting your needs.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was working with people on that, but I hadn't done any work on like, how do you have boundaries in a relationship?
[SPEAKER_02]: How do you communicate and health earways and speak your needs vulnerable?
[SPEAKER_02]: How do you end up in a situation where you have healthier coping mechanisms and behaviors and relationships rather than retreating or stonewalling, actually speaking up and opening up?
[SPEAKER_02]: So I got really into then working on those things in my relationship with my now husband.
[SPEAKER_02]: and then start sharing them with clients and that's actually how I got into the relationship space because of exactly what you're saying, which is that I realized it was just following a similar threat where you say you're gonna do one thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I'm gonna be more vulnerable, but then you shut down.
[SPEAKER_02]: Or I say I'm gonna stop retreating from something, but I do it anyways, or for some people, it's okay they say they're gonna stop raising their voice, but they go back in the heat of the moment.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so my body of work is very much about
[SPEAKER_02]: not just intellectualizing and understanding these things because there's a lot of information out there on the internet but like how do you take all of these themes and patterns and actually apply them at a subconscious level so that you're actually rewiring and as we actually start to change that then your setpoint, your baseline changes and so funnily enough I revisited attachment styles at that point you know I learned it in like first your university at a high level and then yeah and then it's very high level it's like oh the temperaments of how you're going to develop
[SPEAKER_02]: And I've been doing this work on these original pillars, like the wounds, the needs in our system, the boundaries, the communication, the behaviors, these six pillars.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I realize, oh my goodness, if you tell me your attachment style, if I know somebody's attachment style and assess it for them, I already know what triggers and wounds they're going to have.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, the entrance of the attachment styles are more like a band-in, alone, excluded, just like, rejected, unlovable.
[SPEAKER_02]: Dismissives are like trapped.
[SPEAKER_02]: In golf, helpless, powerless, defective, or shameful, weak, if they're too vulnerable.
[SPEAKER_02]: And fearful of avoidance really had both sides, but also this big-bridge male wound.
[SPEAKER_02]: and that each one has specific needs.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you tell me your attachment's out, okay, I know that anxious attachments cells are going to have more needs related to validation reassurance, certainty, being a priority.
[SPEAKER_02]: Disimmissible weapons are going to have needs more related to autonomy and dependence, understanding, acceptance.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so what was so crazy is that I was doing all this work with people and I sooner than I learned their attachments cells look, oh, this just fast tracks the work.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just know they're profile by what core ones they're going to have.
[SPEAKER_02]: What needs are going to have how their nervous system is going to respond and react when they're perceived danger and what boundary patterns they're going to have.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, anxious attachment sounds struggle with boundaries.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is missable.
[SPEAKER_02]: We wouldn't have to extreme boundaries and have to work on compromising.
[SPEAKER_02]: If your full avoidance are like a boundary list until you're angry and then you set extreme boundaries and then go back to feeling guilty and boundary list again and see, you can see all these themes play out.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so that's where we created this body of what called integrated attachment theory, which is like the neuroscience of how to rewire your attachment style by understanding of what your profile is on these pillars and then how to engage yourself conscious and at times unconscious mind to actually recondition.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what I really want to know, but I love that you did that fast tracking.
[SPEAKER_01]: So like, right, we have a counseling center in Tucson and couples come in in crisis mode.
[SPEAKER_01]: And one of the first things we do before we do anything sometimes before we even do goals is we go into their entire genogram, individual timeline relationship, timeline and attachment to identify all of that first, so then they can at least have compassion for each other that the person's not trying to just make them
[SPEAKER_01]: crazy and they're not just hating on the other person because when you sink into just like understanding their partners a human too that has probably been suffering for a long time just the suffering looks different than yours.
[SPEAKER_01]: Inside I just can really relate to like we do that one of them and they're like no we just want to talk about the infidelity and like you're won't hear it differently.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have to go to those wounds first and then go ahead.
[SPEAKER_04]: I might think one of the things it's you know because you were talking about like
[SPEAKER_04]: the unconscious and then instead of just dealing with the conscious, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: And so that's one step.
[SPEAKER_04]: But then in couples work, it's like then the relationship, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's like two steps away from what's really driving everything.
[SPEAKER_04]: Because so many couples, when they come in, they're suffering and acting out in ways consciously and unconsciously, but
[SPEAKER_04]: their convinced it's just the other person, like, you know, if you would just stop doing that, if he would just stop doing that, then I'd be okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's like stepping them all the way back to, like, no, actually, like, even though you love this person and you are crazy about them one point, they are triggering all of these unconscious adaptive traits, adaptive behaviors.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so actually,
[SPEAKER_04]: this partner who's driving you absolutely insane is your greatest teacher, you know, they're going to be the ones who help you get over that because they're going to highlight your pain.
[SPEAKER_02]: 100% I really so enjoy what you're saying both of you because so I don't run my practice anymore because we're all online but for what I did I would get couples to to come in and
[SPEAKER_02]: we go through this like a discovery day.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the first couple sessions will just be discovered.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it actually goes through these six pillars, like what are these big core wounds and triggers where do they come from?
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'd get them to say that in front of their partner so that their partner had context for these things differently.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we go through all these different themes and patterns because I think to your point, like, it's hard to empathize with somebody when we can't understand them.
[SPEAKER_02]: But when we understand them, but they as that naturalness, that's not.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, a lot of times, by getting that understanding and seeing their history and a lot of those things, you'd see that, that thread all the way through.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then, to your point, to E.J., what I thought was really beautiful is that, you know, these themes that come up.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I remember really early on in talking with clients like years and years ago.
[SPEAKER_02]: I remember sitting one day and there was this couple and they came into my office.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the husband and wife and the wife was talking but have the clothes were always on the floor.
[SPEAKER_02]: And as she was talking about this story, I remember looking,
[SPEAKER_02]: and her hands were shaking.
[SPEAKER_02]: And they were baking with like rage.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I remember kind of being taken aback going, she thought I agree about the clothes on the floor and she started getting really mad.
[SPEAKER_02]: Her husband started getting really sort of sad.
[SPEAKER_02]: You could see his body language shift and change and kind of bowl over.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was sitting there going like, there's no way that she's like nine or 10 and 10 and 10 and 9 and he's like an eight out of 10 distraught.
[SPEAKER_02]: over a club on the floor and like what what's going on here and when I asked them I was okay well what do you make it mean about you when the clothes are on the floor and she was like well.
[SPEAKER_02]: that he doesn't respect me.
[SPEAKER_02]: That my own husband, that respect me.
[SPEAKER_02]: And she had this huge disrespect squirre when from her father growing up and from her older brothers and having interpreted and perceived and stored that to that way.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then for him, I was like, what do you make it mean when she starts to get frustrated?
[SPEAKER_02]: And he's like, I feel she doesn't love me.
[SPEAKER_02]: She doesn't see all the things that I try to do when all the ways I am showing up.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I just feel like it's so discounted.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so it's not like I've ever really that conscious objective situation.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like,
[SPEAKER_02]: subconscious meaning we give to situations and projects on to them that's actually the source of the problem.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I just, yeah, I really agree with it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's 10 99.9% of the couple's population right there, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: They get tripped up in that content.
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't understand the process of it all.
[SPEAKER_01]: and then they end up in couples counseling like pointing the fingers at each other and I just, I want to hear what you were going to say and then just really the steps you really start to help individuals couples to like drop into the subconscious unconscious.
[SPEAKER_01]: If that feels okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, absolutely, yeah, I was just going to say, and then it's funny because then the laundry gets picked up and the problem's on over, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like the laundry's picked up and the way still that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that about the laundry.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you'll see just how often we argue about things and it's really not about those like surfacing themselves.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, so so how do we go into it?
[SPEAKER_02]: So one of the big things they use to sort of differentiate the subconscious and unconscious is like,
[SPEAKER_02]: Your subconscious mind is where you can retrieve information from.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we can welcome, we can say, just for listeners who are in a similar, we can say, okay, you know what I feel this feeling in my body.
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel not good enough.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what it feels like, okay, you know what?
[SPEAKER_02]: When I was eight years old, I did have an experience that made me feel like this.
[SPEAKER_02]: Whereas our unconscious mind, it's much harder to retrieve information from unless we're kind of like in a state of hypnosis or there's some sort of mystery circumstances.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you might be like,
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I feel adverse to peanut butter.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you don't know why, you just know that you do, but maybe at three years old, your older brother, force you to get a jar of peanut butter and you've got sick, but you don't recollect it, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So, so, well, I'll say mostly in subconscious territory, unconscious, we'll get into if somebody has like a really early childhood wound.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's different rewiring that's not necessary for unconscious wounds, I'll come back to that just because you said sub-an unconscious.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, I will start about that first piece, I guess.
[SPEAKER_02]: The first thing is we go through those six pillars.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we go through like the core wounds, the needs, the nervous system function boundaries communication behaviors.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we look at our patterns, but then it's like, okay, we don't want to just intellectualize we want to rewire them.
[SPEAKER_02]: So this is like my favorite thing in the world.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the first, I can actually have maybe a tip or like a tool to start if that's interesting for your listeners.
[SPEAKER_04]: Sure, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_02]: Love it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So the first thing is like we find our wounds.
[SPEAKER_02]: So according to your attachment style, you'll generally have specific wounds.
[SPEAKER_02]: For anxious attachment styles, the big ones are, I'll be disliked, rejected, excluded, and loved, unsafe of somebody pulls away from me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Those are the big big core wounds and fears and you have generally see like anxious attachment styles.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know you guys know this probably inside out, but for anybody who's less familiar, they claim they call a lot and they text a lot when they feel pulled away from they have a really hard time when somebody's not calling your text in them back, sitting in that.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot of that abandonment anxiety and there's strategies to maintain proximity as much as they can.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just myth of avoidance.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're big core wounds and relationships are around being trapped.
[SPEAKER_02]: or engulfed shameful if they're really deeply seen.
[SPEAKER_02]: They have this deep because of child and emotional neglect.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I'm defective, poor wounds.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm fundamentally broken, kind of idea.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll be weak if I open up.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not good enough.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm helpless, powerless if I'm in a position where I have to deal with anything out of my control.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm still those who are a lot of their big, poor wounds.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then fearful wouldn't share in a lot of the anxious and avoidance side because they have both sides.
[SPEAKER_02]: So their attachment styles, they'll still have the abandonment.
[SPEAKER_02]: A lot of like, I am alone, I have to do it all myself, kind of core wounding, fear of being trapped helpless power with big time for fearful avoidance.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then also this big betrayal, not really trusting the future or other people or things like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, first step is like we source people's wounds on that first pillar.
[SPEAKER_02]: And when they start to see okay, I'm not wound really resonates with me.
[SPEAKER_02]: That comes up a lot for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: I get triggered frequently by that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, we want to actually rewire it.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're not born with these wounds.
[SPEAKER_02]: They get conditioned into you through rapid mission and emotion over time.
[SPEAKER_02]: They have virus and virus, these neural networks, and we can change them.
[SPEAKER_02]: And how we change them is I'm not a believer in affirmations.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know the world, a lot of the world is like affirmations, but like your conscious mind speaks language.
[SPEAKER_02]: Your subconscious mind doesn't speak language, pretty much at all.
[SPEAKER_02]: Your subconscious mind speaks in emotions and imagery.
[SPEAKER_02]: So when you try to,
[SPEAKER_02]: change a core wound and let's say the wound is I'm not good enough and you say I am good enough I am good enough.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're just speaking language which means you're conscious mind out, speaking to your conscious mind.
[SPEAKER_02]: The wound exists at a subconscious level.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you can see this, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like if I say to both of you, okay, whatever you do, do not think of a pink elephant.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like probably your mind flash an image of a yellow elephant.
[SPEAKER_02]: Your conscious mind here is do not, but your subconscious just flashes images, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And we see that that's sort of
[SPEAKER_02]: So, we have to take the understanding of how our subconscious works and we have to take our conscious mind and drive what we're trying to create into neural pathways that eventually build neural networks at a subconscious level and there's three steps.
[SPEAKER_02]: Step one, source your core wound at its opposite.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not good enough.
[SPEAKER_02]: I am good enough.
[SPEAKER_02]: And step two, we need 10 pieces of memories of times we felt good enough.
[SPEAKER_02]: Why do we use memory?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because all memories of container
[SPEAKER_02]: So if you think of your favorite childhood memory and you're playing on the beach with your family, you can see the images of the ocean, and we've all seen people when they were countlled memories, they smile, or they laugh, or their body language changes.
[SPEAKER_02]: So what we're doing is we're getting emotions and imagery and we're using 10 of them to create repetition.
[SPEAKER_02]: So now we think of 10 times we felt good enough.
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe last week, I was a really good friend.
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe two weeks ago, somebody says, oh, you know what I showed up and had a hard conversation with my boss.
[SPEAKER_02]: And in recounting those memories, we see the images,
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so now we're using our conscious mind to speak to our subconscious mind and we're getting the repetition to fire and wire those neural pathways.
[SPEAKER_01]: Love it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Step three is we record it down that are self-sing it out loud like into our phones or somewhere we can listen back.
[SPEAKER_02]: And ideally, we listen back and what's called a suggestible state, which is when our brain is producing more alpha or theta brain wings for a sour that we wake up last hour before we go to bed after meditation or intense exercise when our mind is more still and that's when we're really suggestible and so now what we're doing.
[SPEAKER_02]: is when we listen back we're trying to feel about it and visualize it as much as possible those pieces of evidence that we have and we're relying in these new concepts that are subconscious level.
[SPEAKER_02]: For subconscious ones, we want at least a 21 day cycle for unconscious wounds to go back to what you originally said.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: With unconscious mind, neuroscientes tells us we need about 63 days.
[SPEAKER_01]: But, did you write down these numbers, E.J.?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, you write down the numbers.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: 21, 63.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so subplentures would be things that are painful, hard, but we can kind of remember the contact more of them and where they came from.
[SPEAKER_02]: Unconsciously be a lot of things.
[SPEAKER_02]: If somebody was abandoned as a child because they were adopted.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, the things we can't retrieve and remember.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: But obviously, the young age were deeply imprinted by that type of conditioning, especially because from zero to three in the three to eight, those are the times we're most
[SPEAKER_02]: most of our conditioning runs the deepest in those segments.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Could I really quick just, is this a good example?
[SPEAKER_01]: Just so I can make sure my little brain is connecting.
[SPEAKER_01]: So let's just say if the unconscious, when does I'm not safe?
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you kind of get in and you're identifying, okay, I am safe.
[SPEAKER_01]: And times I felt safe, even like in the last two weeks or this, is that kind of like the subconscious versus unconscious?
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: And unconscious would be like,
[SPEAKER_02]: If you walk through your days, frequently feeling extremely dysregulated, you feel like you're in some pathetic nervous system, you have no context for why you can't really think of when it started, you don't really know what's going on and like that kind of thing if we have, if we've always felt like that since we can remember and we've always struggled with chronic anxiety and that kind of way and we have no source, we don't know when it began, we can, you know, retrieve the subconscious part of it which is like
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I felt like that for a long time.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can remember feeling like that in childhood, but the unconscious would be like, I felt like that since I was a kid and before I can remember her.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so when you're mine, it'd been a deeper imprinting experience at that point in time.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, the thing that came up for me is just how interesting it is, like, how many times in your relationship, these unconscious beliefs are validated over and over and over by your partner, you know, like that avoiding partner who feels like they always get it wrong, how many times their anxious partner.
[SPEAKER_04]: says things or acts in ways that that validate the unconscious belief and it's like it's like you're almost like digging a hole that the dirt is filling back in you know that by doing these exercises of like oh here's all these times I feel like I actually got it right or I wasn't enough
[SPEAKER_04]: When you're also on a daily basis and internalizing, well, these are all the ways my partner doesn't think I'm enough.
[SPEAKER_04]: And things I'm fundamentally or at least acts in a way that makes me feel like I'm not lovable.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think your things are really meaningful, which is that our mind also perceives a part into our belief.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we all have this mechanism.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure you know that is the particular activating system or RIS.
[SPEAKER_02]: And people always talk about it in the form of like,
[SPEAKER_02]: If you were going to buy a red car and it's a red Jeep and now you're thinking about buying a red car, you see the red car everywhere when you're driving around like that's the RIS is your filtering system, but actually like what's really meaningful about that is our RIS filters information of what we believe.
[SPEAKER_02]: So if we believe that we're not good enough or defective or whatever the core won't is it's coming up for somebody.
[SPEAKER_02]: Our partner could be snappy because they didn't sleep well and they're so pretty different.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and we go, I'm defective and they think this about me until we re-project it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Always give people the analogy that your core wounds are like a bear in the woods.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, if you go into the woods tomorrow and you see a bear and you run and thank goodness you're safe, but you have to go back into the woods the very next day.
[SPEAKER_02]: The friggin trees blow in the wind and you're like the bear.
[SPEAKER_02]: The bear is here.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so we're always bracing for.
[SPEAKER_02]: These core wounds, and we always re-project them back out.
[SPEAKER_02]: We have a negativity bias where wire that wave in a biological perspective so we can protect ourselves from perceived and sore threats.
[SPEAKER_02]: But what ends up happening is we go through a life, we store these threats, we project them on to things, and our whole brain and body reacts, our nervous system goes into fight or flight, and like if you imagine, somebody felt abandoned as a child, and then somebody doesn't text them back for an hour, maybe that person loves them dearly, and it's just really preoccupied with something at work.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then anxiously attached individuals went, oh my gosh, they're leaving.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're bracing for the bear and the wets, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like our core wounds are each our version of that bear and the wets will be re-project.
[SPEAKER_02]: And what's really interesting too is core beliefs produce patterns of thought.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I always give the analogy that your beliefs are like a tree trunk.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you believe you're not got enough and you go into a room full of people,
[SPEAKER_02]: You start thinking all these thoughts, which are like the tree branches coming off of the tree out.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'm not interesting enough.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not funny enough.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not attractive enough.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not, and we have all these thoughts, and then our emotions follow those thoughts in lots of cases.
[SPEAKER_02]: And are like the tree leaves, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: They color our experience.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so we might feel insecure.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then neuroscience is actually proven.
[SPEAKER_02]: And neuroscience is named Antonio Demazio in 2004, actually proved that all of our actions we take are based on our emotional state.
[SPEAKER_02]: So even people who think they're very logical, rational thinkers are just quick to rationalize, they make emotionally based decisions, and then rationalize them through logic.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I give people the acronym BTA, like your beliefs create thoughts, which create emotions, which create actions, and you can make a pretty strong argument that if you're not in charge of your beliefs, you're not in charge of your actions, and your emotions are made up of neurocomicals.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you have a lot of stressful thoughts, you have more cortisol, and then in turn, you're nervous system reacts,
[SPEAKER_02]: and there's this dysregulation or hyper arousal coming from those beliefs that are situated at subconscious level first.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think that that's what's like so powerful about when you get two individuals who are working on their relationship and working on their own personal growth at the same time.
[SPEAKER_04]: Is it finally you have somebody that's like seeing you and who's in your corner
[SPEAKER_04]: playcating you but is adapting a little bit you know because like if i go to you know my negative core beliefs like and i go to like fricago play pickle ball and my negative core beliefs are getting activated because those people are just there play in pickle ball you know they're they're not gonna be taken care of me or aware of the way in which they interact with me that might trigger them
[SPEAKER_04]: But Tara might, you know, Tara might know that like, hey, if she says something that's critical, then it probably did set me off a little bit and that she might not just get frustrated with the fact that I'm reacting in the way, but might actually like check in with me and be like, hey, you know, when I said that thing about you did that trigger you, did you feel that way?
[SPEAKER_04]: And that, you know, that's like the beauty when you get to people who are actually like,
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's so beautiful.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love pickleball.
[SPEAKER_02]: It has been an era like a dick dick pickleball.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: AJ, which is I was addicted to pickleball.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, my God.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's so funny.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like I go there and like I assume people don't like me.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, it's weird.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like I am actually, it's a place where I'm very aware of my BS.
[SPEAKER_04]: Because I'm like, I have this whole story that this person doesn't like me.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's like, they're just playing pickleball for gassing.
[SPEAKER_01]: You need to go to the personal development school, baby.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: But while this part need to take a course, there's how much her beliefs often become self-fulfilling prophecies, which is the hardest part.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh my gosh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because if you believe, and like this probably isn't your actual experience, because you're both such like aable people, but if somebody, I remember having this one client, she always think of her when I think of this, and she was so lovely, and she had four older brothers, and they all gave her her time growing up, and she had
[SPEAKER_02]: a lot of difficulty just sort of connecting and putting herself out there.
[SPEAKER_02]: She came like full circle and ended up being amazing with us, but she would get so defensive because she was always perceiving she was going to be disliked.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so she had this huge disliked core wound, which is a common one.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then she'd tell me stories that people aren't going to like her.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I remember when we first started working together, she said, you know, I go into work.
[SPEAKER_02]: And people talk to me or give me funny looks and
[SPEAKER_02]: I snap at them and she's constantly so snap because she's always on the defense because she's first projecting and believing that people don't like her and then she'd always really struggle to socially adjust and work places because she'd always be in these like making these passive aggressive comments and she told me I remember her being like I think I'm realizing like
[SPEAKER_02]: that these come out of the blue for somebody else.
[SPEAKER_02]: They don't realize where I'm being so hostile and harsh, but it's first because I'm assuming they don't like me.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm feeling defensive.
[SPEAKER_02]: My guard's up, then I make them snappy.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then, of course, that becomes like herself with feeling prophecy and so she started to work through the wound.
[SPEAKER_02]: She really should be more comfortable and safe and change her behavior.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then she started actually making friends at work.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so we see how these things tend to come full circle that.
[SPEAKER_04]: And in your relationship, like there are things I do that lead to terror reacting in ways that validate those negative things I think about myself.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then it's just like, and then you start to feel like you're crazy because you're just like, what is going on?
[SPEAKER_04]: This is a person I love who I'm creating the same negative story with them that I do everywhere else, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So the work pace.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's really like you said it's doing it's identifying it, feeling it out, bringing in the positive, reframing it into positive beliefs, experiencing what that feels like for subconscious like 21 days every night or when our brains in alpha theta and then for unconscious, like does it really work?
[SPEAKER_02]: really works.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh my god, just her stats on this too.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we let 60,000 people come to our programs and we got your amazing NPS score on this, like what their satisfaction score was with this exercise.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we got a 99.7% NPS score of people who stuck to it for the poll site.
[SPEAKER_02]: So anybody who actually completed we were like, okay, you completed it here is your hand at the end of the completion and then like what did you actually score in terms of your success, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's like absolutely life changing.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is honest, this may have started doing in myself first before actually teaching and sharing about that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, developed for a lot of my research and
[SPEAKER_02]: The craziest part for me is as I was a fearful avoidant.
[SPEAKER_02]: I had all of the core wounds.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was like everything and all day every day My internal dialogue was like terrible like just always assuming the words always projecting things So defensive so stressed out like Super spending way too much time in like sympathetic nervous system.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh because constantly projecting my bears in the woods all the time and then What was so wild is that as I did that work and work through will and by wound
[SPEAKER_02]: like the amount of room in my brain to, like, create and to learn and to be present self and energy.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, just like night and day.
[SPEAKER_02]: So really worthwhile exercise to start with.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's, there's lots of other pillars for healing your attachments.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like there's those five other ones still, but that's a really good first pillar in place to start.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: In a way, it kind of reminds me, I do like I'm a huge fan of IFS work and turn off the only systems and getting all your little self-energy back, but just still accepting all the parts of you, like there's no bad parts, but because we tend towards that negative bias, that's like, I would say like our brains like a Google search engine, like we don't put in like, why am I so freaking awesome?
[SPEAKER_01]: It would turn up blank pages, but when you're like, why am I not enough?
[SPEAKER_01]: Why am I insignificant?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, bam, 100 pages right there, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And that we have to intentionally do like you said, 10 memories.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like we have we do this cognitive restructuring technique.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're like, you have to come up with 10 memories of where the wound comes from, but then experience it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So madically,
[SPEAKER_01]: When you're hearing it back like you are enough, you are safe, you can handle this.
[SPEAKER_01]: We can handle this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like we have couples do that shared experience together in our room.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like you just see the melting of it like, but then they forget, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: At the first kind of complex like forget and it's like, oh, so it feels like this is a way where it actually like you said starts to build those new neural networks.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because if you just do it a couple of times, it doesn't stick.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not sticky.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like a pasta across the wall and it just dropped.
[SPEAKER_04]: So we sort of just scratched the surface, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: But you gave us a great framework and one really practical tool.
[SPEAKER_04]: Can you tell us the story of a young woman who is fearful of widening
[SPEAKER_04]: coming out of addiction and worked through this and how your relationship changed.
[SPEAKER_04]: And the way that you give and receive love now as a result of the work you've done.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, definitely.
[SPEAKER_02]: So the first thing is that I don't think I even would have gotten into a relationship if I didn't do a lot of quarantine work before meeting my house.
[SPEAKER_02]: Then like, I was just triggered by everything all the time.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think the pre-work was that before meeting
[SPEAKER_02]: and was just like way more regulated as a result.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that was the first pillar that was really big.
[SPEAKER_02]: The next pillar was the Needs pillar.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I always believe that like, there's a great aromatic, what he says, trauma, the things that did happen that shouldn't have happened.
[SPEAKER_02]: But it's also things that didn't happen that should have happened.
[SPEAKER_02]: And to me, I break them into the, what happened that shouldn't have happened is your core will see somebody was abusive.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, you made it mean I am unsafe, I'm helpless.
[SPEAKER_02]: But it's also maybe you didn't get, like if you look at a dismissal of what they didn't get enough attunement, they didn't get enough presence for their caregivers, like presence with a CE, not like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, there's things that we didn't get access through that we needed to be to feel whole, to feel safe, to feel safe.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so that next pillar and I spent a lot of time on this one was like listening out all the things I didn't feel like I had access to in childhood and needed.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then really being
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, you know, some of it was like safety.
[SPEAKER_02]: I did a lot of nervous system regulation, though it helped me feel safe and comfortable with it myself.
[SPEAKER_02]: A lot of it was things like validation and kind of so mean to myself and my internal dialogue.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I started every day, just like acknowledge my three wins on a daily basis.
[SPEAKER_02]: And presence and a tournament, okay, so every day, I would like sit in my body,
[SPEAKER_02]: in with how I'm feeling when am I meeting like and actually have these rituals that were allowing me to really fill through repetition and emotion across 21 days cycle so that I could actually meet these needs and it became a new set point or baseline.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that allowed me to feel because with really interesting and relationships is that we always project on to people.
[SPEAKER_02]: the responsibility of needs that we can't self-source and it puts extremities pressure on the relationships.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we feel like an anxious person, they struggle to self-source validation or reassurance.
[SPEAKER_02]: So they're like, my partner needs to be validating me all the time, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And so we have to learn to give to ourselves we didn't get and that makes room for internet independence.
[SPEAKER_02]: It makes room for us too.
[SPEAKER_02]: self-sourced, but also then lean on others and have both sides rather than one or the other.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I spend a lot of time doing that, too, and then a lot of time regulating my nervous system.
[SPEAKER_02]: So before I met my husband, I had come like a really long way.
[SPEAKER_02]: But there was still like part of me that did not take up space or communicate my needs.
[SPEAKER_02]: And those are the next pillars, it's like boundaries and communication of needs.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like taking what you know you need and actually being able to share it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so,
[SPEAKER_02]: It's funny because I remember like literally so vividly like this had to be like 11 years ago or so I remember we were in the car one day and I was drop I was picking him up here to take his car and I was picking him up And from work to drop him at his house, and then I was gonna had to work myself and I was like it was this whole thing where we were
[SPEAKER_02]: I was waiting for him and I was getting so frustrated because I was going to be late to work and I thought I was like doing this favor.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I remember being in the car and I called a major dancer and I don't want to feel like I had to keep calling him or something like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I felt like hey, I'm doing a favor.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like he should come and be available.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I remember he got in the car and I waited and I knew at that point I was going to be five minutes late to work and I remember feeling so mad like just so mad and it was the first time I felt like kind of really triggered again and we've been dating for a little while.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I remember being like okay what I would do in the past is like just the angry and just push away and say like this is so unacceptable that's so rude I can't believe that's in like criticize.
[SPEAKER_02]: But knowing that that wasn't productive and knowing that in that moment like, okay, this is a chance to break this cycle and to communicate with vulnerability and just say and I just remember saying it was so vivid for me because I had like never communicated means growing up I had never shared openly in relationships I just didn't even it wasn't even on my like awareness to do so and I remember when I was wearing it so that like I had this red shirt on and I remember being like, hey,
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm having a really hard time right now and not making this mean that I was just respected because I'm trying to do a favor and it feels like, you know, you were kind of doing your own thing and talking to people on the way out of work and it doesn't feel like it was fair to my time and I'm feeling really hurt.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I remember saying like, I want to kind of push you away but I would rather talk it out and like try to have a conversation.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I remember like, he turned around and responded so well to that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was like, I am so sorry, like, I lost track of time.
[SPEAKER_02]: I should have been more aware.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I really apologize, like, I really respect you.
[SPEAKER_02]: And like, I don't want to make you feel like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, thank you for picking up.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I remember like all that feeling just melting away.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's being like,
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh my gosh, this is way better.
[SPEAKER_02]: Why didn't I always say this?
[SPEAKER_02]: And practicing that and, you know, practicing every time.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I always say to people behind every really criticism, there's just a need that we have.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: It needs to be acknowledged.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, you know, I practiced that a lot in relationships every time.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I had done a lot of some out of work at that point.
[SPEAKER_02]: So by the time I was feeling angry or frustrated, I could kind of want to say it and get present with it and do something more productive with it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And with less core wounds, I wasn't getting so triggered like I had in the past.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I mean, I guess over time, like really plugging into all those pillars and practicing until those became the new normal, like, I guess 11 years later, to tell this story, I'm honestly so happy in my relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I feel kind of, I don't want to seem like arrogant for saying that, but just it's so crazy to me, because when I was a kid, I was like, I'm never getting married.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm never having children.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've never invested in anything like that relationships are crazy.
[SPEAKER_02]: Why do people bother?
[SPEAKER_02]: And I just had such a negative view of relationships.
[SPEAKER_02]: I had a lot of works you want to see around men.
[SPEAKER_02]: I had a lot of wounds for my dad, but I had to really work through.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's the craziest thing ever to me now.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I love men and know that women and men need each other.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I have such a healthy mood of that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I just, yeah, I think it's worth doing the work.
[SPEAKER_02]: I guess I would say.
[SPEAKER_04]: I love that arc, because that arc is like, I went from somebody who did not believe in relationships to somebody who has an amazing one and sees what an immense value there is in them.
[SPEAKER_01]: and also ties because I think so many people, especially to the point where they come right for counseling, it's like we're uniquely broken.
[SPEAKER_01]: But like you just said, it's a skill that you practice.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like it is not in our body to be like, oh my gosh, I feel really hurt and disrespected by this, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It is our...
[SPEAKER_04]: you hurt me, you shouldn't have done that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so just for people listening, like this is, it's skills building.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's awareness building, skills building.
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't happen overnight.
[SPEAKER_01]: We can't just read each other's mind.
[SPEAKER_01]: We can't just respond with vulnerability when we don't know how to quite be vulnerable ourselves.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm just thinking about all that work you did to get to that place where you could actually share with Graham.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm having a really hard time right now, and then he gets to respond heart to heart instead of like, oh, now I have to defend myself because I hurt you.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I just, I just really want people to hear it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's, it's skills.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's awesome.
[SPEAKER_01]: But to reinforce that it doesn't happen overnight, taste, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: But that you have found ways to really, I don't want to say fast track it, but to identify it sooner, and then give the tools, I guess.
[SPEAKER_04]: All right, well, speaking of that, let's, if people are hearing this and they're into it and they want to learn more, like, Tais, how do they get to know you more?
[SPEAKER_04]: How do they find you?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so I am at the Personal Development School.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's Personal Development School.com, and there's a free attachment quiz there, and then also on YouTube, it which is Tais gives
[SPEAKER_02]: Gibson Dash Personal Development School and on Instagram at the Personal Development School.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we're just starting our podcast back up again.
[SPEAKER_02]: We had just very, very few YouTube episodes, so we'll have a podcast called the Tays Gibson Podcast as well in the future.
[SPEAKER_02]: So lots of resources out there.
[SPEAKER_04]: great.
[SPEAKER_04]: We will link all of that in our show notes and it's been a great and you have an immense amount of knowledge and also like the felt sense of of using it also.
[SPEAKER_04]: So thank you Tayees.
[SPEAKER_04]: It has been a pleasure to get to know you a little bit and to have you on the show.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for having me.
[SPEAKER_02]: I so appreciate it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for all of your research, for all of the work that you do to support individuals and couples in relationships with impact families, communities, the world, really like you're awesome, like to be 35 and have this much knowledge and like passion for what you're doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's incredible because that's, I was going to say that's what's magnetic, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like we're super passionate about our couples, counseling and people are like, how do you love couples, counseling so much that I've got to do?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like that is like your jam, like you are so passionate when you speak about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like we could probably have had a 10 hour podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: So thank you for all that you do.
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, please plug in all the stuff in the show notes.
[SPEAKER_01]: As always, take care of yourself.
[SPEAKER_01]: Take care of each other, bye-bye.
[UNKNOWN]: Bye-bye.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just singin' on the train, me and you listening to the rain Me and you, we are the same, me and you Have all the fame we need