[SPEAKER_00]: Therapy Chat Podcasts Episode 511 This is the Therapy Chat Podcast with Laura Regan, LCSWC.
[SPEAKER_00]: The information shared in this podcast is not a substitute for seeking help from a licensed mental health professional.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now, here's your host Laura Regan, LCSWC.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hi, welcome back to Therapy Chat and Happy New Year, 2026.
[SPEAKER_01]: So happy to be back with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Next week's episode will be our traditional new years episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: But this week, I'm bringing you a conversation that I recorded recently with my friend and colleague, Dr. Sharon Martin, LCSW.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sharon is the author of several books on family relationships including the better boundaries workbook and her most recent book is cutting ties with your parents.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sharon is a proud member of Trauma Therapist Network and I'm so grateful to have her there but she and I have known each other for
[SPEAKER_01]: probably about 10 years and we pulled together this conversation, this interview, pretty spontaneously.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was something I had been kind of thinking about doing around the holidays
[SPEAKER_01]: interview where she had a previous therapy chat guest, Dr. Lindsey Gibson, congrats Lindsey for being on Oprah's podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: Lindsey talks about emotionally immature parents and adult children of emotionally immature parents and it is a big issue.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a need for boundaries to be set when your parents are emotionally immature.
[SPEAKER_01]: children don't have much choice about being part of the family that they come into.
[SPEAKER_01]: But when we reach adulthood and we have autonomy and we can say this is okay with me and this is not okay with me.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's when there begins to be trouble sometimes in our adult relationships with our parents if they're not willing to allow us to be separate into individuals apart from their wishes and the
[SPEAKER_01]: identities that have already been established.
[SPEAKER_01]: So this was a really vulnerable conversation for two reasons.
[SPEAKER_01]: First, because we recorded it live on Instagram.
[SPEAKER_01]: We just did an Instagram live and we didn't script what we were going to say or anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: We just went with it.
[SPEAKER_01]: We both
[SPEAKER_01]: have a lot of experience working with people who have varying levels of closeness or distance from their parents in adulthood because our clients are people whose childhood didn't meet their needs very well.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so naturally, you know, some of our clients come to us already, estranged from their parents, others are considering the boundaries that they need in their relationships with their parents to feel well.
[SPEAKER_01]: And one of the big things that we talked about is how, in order to have healthy relationships, we need boundaries that make us feel safe.
[SPEAKER_01]: If our family relationships do not allow us to have the boundaries that make us feel safe, that's a problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's a problem for the family system, and it's a problem for each individual in the family system.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's one of the reasons that this interview was vulnerable too is that we both have direct experience ourselves with our boundary setting in our family relationships,
[SPEAKER_01]: What are the adult relationship boundaries that work for us and for our adult children now?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not the same.
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't have all the control anymore when your children grow up and hopefully
[SPEAKER_01]: you've allowed them to be who they are when they were children, and they feel comfortable that you want them to be who they are when they're adults, but it's tricky to navigate even if you have been pretty open in that way.
[SPEAKER_01]: So
[SPEAKER_01]: Another reason why it was vulnerable for me is because I talked about my own process of reconciling the self abandonment that I had done or have done, the ways that I abandoned myself for survival within my family and then later how some boundaries needed to be
[SPEAKER_01]: created so that I could be safe and not any longer abandoning myself because that's very energetically draining, emotionally heavy, it's a trauma response.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if I'm if my relationship with my family members is a trauma response, if if the way I relate to them is through the context of a trauma response, then I
[SPEAKER_01]: That's on healthy for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: That means my body is having a trauma reaction when I'm in relationship with them and it's not healthy for us to be living in trauma reactions.
[SPEAKER_01]: It sends all kinds of chemicals coursing through our bodies that cause illness and dis-ease as they say.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you'll hear about that in our conversation and much more including what's on the other side of setting healthy boundaries with family members when their relationship isn't working for you as it is now and how parents don't have to be so afraid of their children wanting to set boundaries.
[SPEAKER_01]: What can parents do?
[SPEAKER_01]: to deal with their adult child wanting to have different boundaries within the relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: It seems so hard and it's scary and painful.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's about power and control.
[SPEAKER_01]: But the good news is it's not that hard to let it go.
[SPEAKER_01]: And what's on the other side of that is just so beautiful as the parent.
[SPEAKER_01]: When your child feels really safe with you, and you can have a really, truly healthy relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I've got a lot of exciting stuff coming up in 2026.
[SPEAKER_01]: You've been hearing, if you're following me anywhere, you've been hearing about the therapist retreat.
[SPEAKER_01]: Until in Mexico in the April 20, 26, I can't wait for that and we're planning on doing a second one later in the year.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you're a therapist who's really in need of some holding and self-care, some time for deep healing and restoration, there's still space available in the Tulum Retreat.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's on the Trauma Therapist Network website.
[SPEAKER_01]: Trauma Therapist Network.com.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I would love for you to join us.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be so incredibly beautiful.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I know a lot of people are also interested in the November 1.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'll get the dates for that and the links posted soon, especially if you need a longer payment plan and you want to get started paying on that now so that by November, it's all paid up.
[SPEAKER_01]: Also, I've got some really wonderful, deep, meaningful episodes coming up for you over the next few weeks.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's a lot happening, a lot of excitement.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm finally getting my book, proposal together and submitting it, so nervous about that, but I'll tell you more about that, all of that stuff in next week's New Year episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: And as always, I just want to thank you for listening.
[SPEAKER_01]: I hope that this conversation is valuable for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: And a lot of people have already told me who were there on the Instagram live or watched it back later.
[SPEAKER_01]: that it was really thought provoking for them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Even if they are estranged from their parents, and it had them thinking about things differently, and also people who have adult children mentioned to me that they found some really worthwhile things to think about regarding that relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I hope you'll enjoy it too, and I'll look forward to being with you again soon
[SPEAKER_01]: my tech supports running out of the room.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, god.
[SPEAKER_03]: My two.
[SPEAKER_03]: I had to ask for help.
[SPEAKER_03]: I said, oh, no, how I did it.
[SPEAKER_03]: My son had to come and help me.
[SPEAKER_03]: And God, he was whole anyway.
[SPEAKER_03]: Nice to be here.
[SPEAKER_03]: Hi, everybody.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm Dr. Sharon Martin.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm thrilled to be here with Laura and with all of you.
[SPEAKER_02]: And
[SPEAKER_02]: looking forward to, yeah, digging in and chatting a little bit about family relationships, family estrangement and what we can do about it all.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so thank you Sharon for agreeing to do this kind of, you know, hurriedly, fortunately we're friends so I just texted you and we just pulled it all together just like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But for those
[SPEAKER_01]: Many books, one of which is called Cutting Ties with Your Parents, and I'm sure that it's right there in the background behind your head somewhere, and also the better boundaries workbook and Sharon, you in your practice and your writing have really specialists in
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, the challenges that people have in family relationships from growing up in relationships where maybe their, their free expression was limited and helping adults learn how to set boundaries after having that kind of childhood, for example, do you want to say a little bit more about yourself before we go into this?
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll just try to keep it brief.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know that's not really what everyone wants to hear about, but yes, I've been a practicing psychotherapist for over 25 years now and the work that I have done has been working with adult children who have grown up with a difficult family situation of one kind or another.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's so many different varieties of what that looks like for people.
[SPEAKER_02]: And really moving into even a more specialized, I would say, work around people who are trying to decide maybe how to move forward with their family relationships has come back.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would say maybe more recently, just working with a lot of the adult children, it seems to be a theme that would come up over and over again for people.
[SPEAKER_02]: Again, it wasn't necessarily why they came to therapy exclusively, but it is as we would talk and go through weeks and months what would happen is people would be just talking about such painful interactions day-to-day
[SPEAKER_02]: their parents in particular, but sometimes with other family members as well, and it became such an important theme for them that people were really like I said, just in so much pain that they didn't know what to do.
[SPEAKER_02]: They wanted to have this relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was really really important to them.
[SPEAKER_02]: But at the same time, it was causing them so much distress.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I would say often what would happen is that people would have some kind of interaction and it would really, I would say sort of throw them off for maybe hours, but often for days is the amount of time that they were spending emotionally trying to recover from that interaction.
[SPEAKER_02]: And sometimes that was just a few text messages or maybe it was a all day Thanksgiving with their family.
[SPEAKER_02]: But like I said, I mean, it was just so disruptive to their lives, and yet they were stuck.
[SPEAKER_02]: They didn't know which direction to go, because they couldn't see a path towards improving the relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: They really had been trying and trying and trying for so many years.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I would say what what typically I would see is that we were talking about present-day struggles and issues that they were having, but really these issues went back decades.
[SPEAKER_02]: They went back to childhood, and so when we're talking about people who do get to the point of cutting ties, it is something that has been in the works, at least in my experience, for many, many, many years.
[SPEAKER_02]: And again, it's not even just like this is a difficult adult relationship that we're having,
[SPEAKER_02]: of so many challenges and harmful things that have happened that had never been repaired.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so it's like this cumulative effect.
[SPEAKER_02]: It just adds up and adds up.
[SPEAKER_02]: And obviously, you get to a certain point where you just can't take it anymore.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just oppressive to you.
[SPEAKER_02]: So anyway, that's a lot of the work that I do in my practice and then like you said ever in a few different books on related topics to that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I always on therapy chat have you on I have you on so much and I usually play your episodes about.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, challenging family dynamics around the holidays every year, because people are like, thank you, I needed to understand why I was feeling this way after being with my family.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, like you, I worked with a lot of adults who have had, you know, developmental trauma.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, whether it was emotional neglect, emotional abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse, most of my clients
[SPEAKER_01]: childhood histories and they still, many of them still have some kind of relationship with their parents and they're still, there's a part of them that's like a child still wanting from their parents what they always wanted to be accepted, to be understood, to have their pain be witnessed by their parents and take in seriously.
[SPEAKER_01]: And something you mentioned when you were talking about your work
[SPEAKER_01]: these past issues that have never been repaired.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's a really important frame for this conversation about people cutting ties with family or or going no contact because the problem often is that there are all of these things that adult child still wants the relationship with their parent, but there are all of these things that the adult child is still feeling hurt by
[SPEAKER_01]: to talk about and resolve with their parents and their parents often are giving them a message.
[SPEAKER_01]: Get over it, that's in the past.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're not gonna talk about that, and even that it's inappropriate for the child to even be asking for the parents to, like it's disrespectful to ask the parent to consider whether they're behavior, cause harm to the child.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, for people who've had those kinds of experiences all they want is to be heard, believed, validated in what their experience was.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not that they're trying to make their parents feel terrible.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're trying to say, I'm hurting.
[SPEAKER_01]: I need you to care about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if the parents are saying, I don't want to hear it, you know, it's just it's another traumatizing experience for the relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and when you think about it, that's what we want every relationship that we have.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not just with our parents.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think the difference is there's often an expectation that you're going to maintain the relationship with your family, no matter the quality of the relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like it's a given, like you just have this showing up, no matter whether it's a satisfying relationship, whether it's toxic, whether it's painful for you, that that's an obligation.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, you know, maybe more people are realizing they do have a choice here, and they can ask more of the relationship with their parents.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, just like a partner or a friend, you would say to yourself, well, why am I going to
[SPEAKER_02]: Or this marriage, even, if I'm not getting my needs mad, if I can't bring up the issues and feel like this is the safe place where I can say, hey, you did something that was hurtful to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: It is a big deal to me, and I really want to try to resolve that with you.
[SPEAKER_02]: And either, right here, like you were saying, sometimes that's this overt message where they are literally saying to you, no, I'm not going to talk to you about it, or there's avoidance and stone walling, or there's that more subtle message.
[SPEAKER_02]: that it's an aggressive response or it's passive aggressive response, but you're still getting the message that, nope, that's off limits.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're not going to talk about those things.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're just going to stuff it under the rug and go on with our obligations and
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, we're each going to play our part and we're going to, you know, do what's always been expected from us.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think this is really, you know, shaking things up for some families when people are not necessarily just going along with those expectations.
[SPEAKER_02]: But there's more questioning them and saying, well, you know, maybe this relationship isn't working for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: And what are my options?
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, it's interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I've seen eight thoughts.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to just like blur them all out, but it's it's interesting that as parents, we want our children to be in healthy adult relationships.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't want them to be mistreated by their employer, their partner, their friends or in any situation.
[SPEAKER_01]: But if we don't allow them to have a voice in the relationship with us when they reach adulthood, if we say, you know, it's listen, it's my way or the highway, you do what I say, you don't speak back.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then how are they expected to be able to have those skills in their adult relationships?
[SPEAKER_01]: And what you see, or what I see, so often,
[SPEAKER_01]: when people have had families where there was a lot of need for control and obedience.
[SPEAKER_01]: When those children grow up into adulthood, they often find themselves in relationships where they are being victimized, exploited, abused, and oftentimes the parents are running in and trying to pull them out of that relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: What are you doing?
[SPEAKER_01]: This is wrong.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can't be with them.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, how can we expect different if that's what they learned in childhood is what a relationship is supposed to be like?
[SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, you know, I think the other thing, Laura, is that we really have to make some big shifts in the way that we have relationships as we become adults, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: When the child becomes an adult, the parent really has to make that shift in the way that they relate to their child.
[SPEAKER_02]: You can't continue to treat your 30-year-old child like they're 15, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because that's going to be an unsatisfying relationship, really for everybody.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think that's really what anybody likes, but of course that's hard.
[SPEAKER_02]: You and I are both
[SPEAKER_02]: parents of young adult children.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think we can kind of speak to this on both sides of it is that, you know, it's hard to see your child perhaps as your equal.
[SPEAKER_02]: And yet that's really what needs to happen is you need to be able to have a relationship that's equitable with them rather
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe with really good intentions, but still somewhat trying to be the guide, the person who's giving the advice, who's telling them what they should be doing with their life, because again, that's not what adult children want.
[SPEAKER_02]: they want to be able to make their own decisions and feel supported by their parents and have that unconditional support.
[SPEAKER_02]: I cannot put their necessarily against any type of guidance, but it has to be something that they are seeking from their parent, rather than the parents of imposing it on them.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's the kind of thing that I have really seen that pushes adult children away is parents
[SPEAKER_02]: I would say sort of try and dominate the relationship and have some level of control either in in the adult child's relationship or their life choices in general how they parent their own children or
[SPEAKER_02]: their expectations that they have really high expectations for the amount of things that the adult child is going to do for their parent that they're sort of supposed to drop everything and come over and help them with this project or that and there's supposed to always be available for their parent.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so again, there's sort of that level of a measurement there instead of letting the adult child
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, in a healthy relationship, there would be that that emotional connection there that feels mutual for both of us and there's a given take on both sides rather than this one sidedness where the parent is the one who's again.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, sort of the controlling and asking for everything or sometimes really demanding things from their adult children and then that that's like we were saying that's that sort of press of state that the people feel that they are in with their parents and that that is not going to feel good and that's not going to be a relationship that somebody wants to continue if they have a choice.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's not to say that people don't want to try to improve that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's really, you know, the question that we can't keep coming back to is if this is a situation that you are in, is there a way to make it better?
[SPEAKER_02]: Is there a way for you to voice those concerns and ask for what you want and see if that can happen in the relationship?
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think sometimes that does happen,
[SPEAKER_02]: And of course, sometimes it doesn't, and you, when I know that, you know, very, very well from the work that we have done that, unfortunately, there are, I think there's often situations where adult children feel like they have been expressing their, their concerns and their needs and they have not been heard.
[SPEAKER_02]: And how, how long are you supposed to keep doing that and getting the same response?
[SPEAKER_02]: And you know what I see for people is they try far longer that would say probably is even what I would expect them to do like literally years and years trying to make it better before they decide they can't do it anymore I have never ever
[SPEAKER_02]: encountered anybody who has made the decision to cut ties with the family member lightly or easily or spur of a moment.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think sometimes that's the way it's characterized.
[SPEAKER_02]: There might be sort of the last straw, you know, one final thing that is the the catalyst, but it is never the only thing that is that is years in the making in my experience.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it seems like that's yours as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, and I think one of the things that I'd like to discuss here is that cutting ties are going no contact is not just it's not the only option.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, there are ways to set boundaries with your parents or with your adult child that don't involve complete estrangement.
[SPEAKER_01]: But before getting into that, I wanted to say a couple of the things.
[SPEAKER_01]: One is, as you mentioned, we're both parents of young adults.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I feel like I understand this issue on a lot of levels because I'm a therapist and I work with a lot of people who have some level of distance from their parents, some have no contact at all, some would like a different boundary, but don't know how to set it up.
[SPEAKER_01]: But also, I went through a period of a strangement with one of my parents for a long time.
[SPEAKER_01]: That wasn't permanent.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, it was painful for me to have that distance, but it was more painful for me to keep going to that parent and wanting something from them that they kept not giving.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, it felt like for myself having that distance was needed until
[SPEAKER_01]: I had done enough healing work on my own and therapy that I understood that that's just how they are.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I can, I can choose to have a relationship with them based on not expecting them to ever be different from how they are.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if I want a relationship with them, that's what it's going to take.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when I got to that point, it was like just at the same time, that parent,
[SPEAKER_01]: Suddenly turned around and said, I know that you've been saying, blah, blah, blah, that you need this for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I didn't realize I wasn't giving it to you and I want you to know, I love you and I want this relation.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, oh, wow, that's what I don't need it anymore, but still it's just, it doesn't matter.
[SPEAKER_01]: Did, and I was able to say, thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I have really let go of that, but it still means a lot that you apologize and let me know.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then another level of it is being a parent of an adult child.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've had my child come to me and say, you didn't do this or you did do that and it wasn't okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm really upset about it and I had these crushing feelings of unloosing my relationship with my child.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're going to turn their back on me.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're not going to want a relationship with me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that was really scary.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I had to I wanted to defend myself.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, well, I did this because this or I didn't do this because that or oh, that's exactly how it happened from what I remember, but yeah, thankfully my child had enough patience with me to say, I just need you to hear how I feel.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when they did that, I said, you know what?
[SPEAKER_01]: Come on, Laura, you're a therapist here.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can, you can be quiet for a minute and just listen.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, and I had to tell myself, my child wants a better relationship with me and they need me to understand their experience.
[SPEAKER_01]: Even if it's not exactly the way that I remember it, even if I had a good reason for what I did or didn't do, that's just a matter.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're telling me
[SPEAKER_01]: They need me to understand that they need to tell them, I'm sorry for that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And literally, when I did, they're like, okay, you know, I'm over it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, but I think that having your child tell you that you have hurt them in some way that you do not meet their needs is excruciating and I think especially if your needs weren't met when you were growing up, which is I think is what comes up for a life as parents when they hear that from their child.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, that's an excellent point and I think you're right that there's a lot more, you know, under the surface going on for people, but like the defensiveness is totally understandable, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: That is like you have been hit with something and I think the internal expectation and the external pressure for us to be good parents,
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: So high, there's there's something there's sort of a current of that that runs through the all of these conversations about a strange meant that I think really we get hung up on this because we all want to see ourselves as good parents.
[SPEAKER_02]: And yet I have no idea what the definition of a good parent is.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's probably a moving target for one thing, but it's
[SPEAKER_01]: the, anyway, the, is that you're really trying your best.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're actually trying so hard to do your best, you know?
[SPEAKER_02]: We're not going to be able to meet all of our children's needs all of the time.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so that's not the bar that we're talking about.
[SPEAKER_02]: But some of it is more what you're talking about is, right, the openness, the availability, the willingness to listen, the willingness to make a man's, the willingness to change,
[SPEAKER_02]: to humble yourself.
[SPEAKER_02]: All of those things are so important in being a good parent that I think sometimes the parent, the estranged parents, gets so defensive feeling like they're being criticized and told they're not good parents that
[SPEAKER_02]: that sort of becomes the barrier to literally not being the good parent in the moment because in the moment what your child needs is for you to humble yourself, to listen, to be available, and they can't do that because they're so hurt by the feeling like the child said you weren't a good parent.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't even know if that is what the child is saying, but that's the way the parent is hearing it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And anyway, I mean, I think if we can kind of get
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, you're a good parent or you're a bad parent or if you're a strange, you're a good parent or you're a bad daughter or like any of these sort of gifts and so pieces to it and and get more to looking at our feelings and our behaviors and how we can work with that instead of sort of trying to put it into a box and say, you know, oh, you were, you know, a really lousy mom because, you know,
[SPEAKER_02]: child is, you know, caught off ties with you, and that isn't what anybody is saying.
[SPEAKER_02]: But again, if we can move into, but what does your child need from you right now?
[SPEAKER_02]: What are they asking for either in words, or, I mean, I think sometimes we can surmise, you know, what they're asking for, from their behavior if they're not actually able to say it to you and go from there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's like if we can remember, this is not child who I love.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I would do anything for this person and I'm could there be any truth in how they feel could there be any truth to that they feel that way I don't have to agree that it all happened that way I don't have to say
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it was all exactly how you think, but I hear that you're feeling this, I mean, you don't want to say that either like, well, I don't agree with what you're saying, but I hear that you're, yeah, you know, but if you can just kind of meet them in the emotional place and like go of the meeting to be right or needing to like win the argument or
[SPEAKER_01]: or dominate in the relationship, like you mentioned before.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that was a really important point.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, can we let it be a little more equal?
[SPEAKER_01]: I have a reciprocal relationship with this person now.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're not a child now.
[SPEAKER_01]: They are my child, but they're an adult.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they deserve to be treated.
[SPEAKER_01]: as an adult.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, a honored adult, a respected adult.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, somebody that you care about.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think again, sometimes we get into the place of so much hurt that it comes out as anger.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then, like, you know, unfortunately, I mean, I see this, you know, or here that sometimes from a strange parents is on, they're like literally saying in the same sentence, how much they want to have this relationship with their child.
[SPEAKER_02]: And yet they are criticizing and speaking very poorly, yes, their child's calling them selfish or,
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, they have no communication skills.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're not.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're not making any effort.
[SPEAKER_02]: And again, it's sort of like, if that's really how you feel about your child's.
[SPEAKER_02]: That was giving me some information, perhaps about why your child has taken a step back.
[SPEAKER_02]: Again, like, I, whether it's my character with anybody else, the same thing holds is, I don't, I'm not going to be really inclined to have a relationship with somebody who thinks I'm selfish or like, you know, is really like putting me down.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, so again, we just need to, I think be more mindful of what we're saying and how we're behaving towards each other.
[SPEAKER_02]: but also there's that place for more introspection and really thinking about well what is going on for me internally and then how is that coming out in my behavior and in my words because again I think it's like the pain and the hurt
[SPEAKER_02]: like you were saying it like it becomes defensiveness and that it becomes anger and then that just works against us being able to repair the relationship which is what people really want.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's sort of like the sad ironic part of it is that I think everybody truly wants
[SPEAKER_02]: to be able to reconcile and have a healthy relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that just is true for the adult child who cut ties as it is for the estranged parent who totally feels like they have been caught off guard and had no idea what was going on.
[SPEAKER_02]: But again, like everybody really wants to have the relationship, these are important relationships that people want.
[SPEAKER_02]: But what we want to respect, you know, the fact that sometimes that's possible and sometimes it's not going to be possible.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that nobody should feel bad or like a failure or like there's something wrong with them if they cannot.
[SPEAKER_02]: have a health relationship, again, with their parents or with anybody else in their life.
[SPEAKER_02]: All you can do is try to do your part of it.
[SPEAKER_02]: as we always say, right at a sort of a therapist, cliche, right at a, you know, but you know, you gotta, you know, take care of what you can contribute to the relationship and show up as your best self and treat other people, you know, with respect and kindness and all that good stuff that you're wanting in return from people, but you can't make people give it to you and you can't make them respond in any particular way to
[SPEAKER_02]: What you're asking for or to the boundaries that you're setting you want to you want to focus on on Yourself and what you can do here to to improve things or just take care of yourself.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah So okay, so Sharon we've got a couple first of all patty from trauma therapists That was here and she said hey to you and
[SPEAKER_01]: One of our participants was just reading cutting ties today, so happy to be here for this conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Patsy said, it can be very destabilizing, disorienting, when your child, your adult child tries to sit up down or you would do and you're like, whoa, whoa, what's happening?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that's happening.
[SPEAKER_01]: Up became down.
[SPEAKER_01]: Kindhearted initiative said that's the biggest problem children are facing lately when we were talking about that and Patsey said going through that process myself right now letting go is surprisingly hard.
[SPEAKER_01]: I only recently realized just how much I'm helicoptering.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a process isn't it?
[SPEAKER_01]: When I love your honesty, Patsey.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's like, you know, we're just trying to be self-aware.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's, you know, the parent child relationship is constantly evolving from the moment they're born.
[SPEAKER_01]: through adulthood and then each of the milestones of maturation that your adult child goes through, it's another change for us, you know, and and sometimes it can feel like we're losing them as they grow up and try to individually have their own separate life and family and we're like, oh no, give us, come over here for dinner all the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Be here, have you with us?
[SPEAKER_01]: Why don't you just
[SPEAKER_01]: But what am I in place?
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I totally relate to that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's definitely a battle that I, you know, try to win every day is to not be overbearing, to not be giving too much advice, knowing that it comes from place of love and wanting the best for my children, but also knowing.
[SPEAKER_02]: that Elifito intellectually, you know, that sometimes the most loving thing is literally to step back and to not say anything, to not do anything, let them make their own choices, do their own thing, be more independent, and be there for them, and keep letting them know that you're there whenever they need you and to do that.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, again, be supportive, be interested in them, care about what they care about, like you would with other people that matter to you.
[SPEAKER_02]: But anyway, I mean, you know, again, I think there's a lot of us who recognize that, yes, it's easy to overstep that boundary and be too involved.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you know, and sometimes again, it doesn't feel controlling on
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, you can feel that way for the adult child that, you know, you're telling them what to do, where you're giving too much advice and what they really would like us to figure it out for themselves.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think, you know, that is a respectful thing to do is to let people figure things out from themselves.
[SPEAKER_02]: Unless again, they're specifically asking you for your guidance or advice about something.
[SPEAKER_02]: But again, it's like if you're giving your partner just like nonstop advice about what to do at work or something like that, I kind of appreciate that either.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's nobody really likes to be getting, you know, somebody telling them what to do with the time.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that is exactly it, you know, and and that was probably very valid.
[SPEAKER_02]: When your child was younger and there might be some element that's still valid, but again, it's not helpful and it doesn't, it's not, you know, sort of a good relationship skill and so we need to, you know, realize that for that reason, if you know if you do know better, sometimes the nicest thing is to just keep your mouth shut, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's a real growth experience as a parent to go, wow, oh, this looks like
[SPEAKER_01]: might not be a great decision but it's their life, it's their life and I have I mean it was a hard like wrangling for me of there was a point of you know when my kids were in their young adulthood you know in their late teens.
[SPEAKER_01]: early 20s where they did need help or they did make mistakes or whatever and then I was, you know, I just wanted to be like, okay, I'll just keep you like a bubble.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll make sure nothing else that ever happens and you can't just can't do that for another person and and how will they ever learn how to navigate those hard times in life?
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're trying to buffer it and do it for them and
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so Madonna will Donna Carey who specializes in Betrayal Trauma is one of our TTN members who's also here.
[SPEAKER_01]: She said I have so many clients who are so hurt by their parents who don't hear their pain of being betrayed by their partner.
[SPEAKER_01]: They hear more of the minimization of the Betrayal and it breaks their hearts.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, well, that's sort of a specific situation, I think probably there's a generalization that's also very true, you know, in other kinds of pain that adult children want to be able to be supported by their parents.
[SPEAKER_02]: And they feel like their parents can't be there and can't be that support for them, TARD.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, when you're going through a divorce or something, if there was a betrayer, you don't want them to say, oh, I'll just put that aside, don't you don't want when you're going through a divorce for your parents to be like, I never liked them anyway, or, you know, stating it or it's like, it's my thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have to do this.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, no one else can know what you're going through in your release.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And again, it's a tricky balance sometimes of how do you be supportive, but not in a position where you're making judgments or you're giving advice.
[SPEAKER_02]: And again, those real relationships skills, but there are things that we can all learn.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, if you're listening to this and you're thinking, you know, I'm not really sure how to do that, or I don't really know how to just be present with somebody in their pain or listen to them.
[SPEAKER_02]: Those are things that are hard to do because again, there's a natural instinct for a lot of us that we want to rush in, that we want to fix things, we want to sue the pain.
[SPEAKER_02]: and that's not always the most useful response is like what we're talking about is sometimes that's not what the other person needs from you and so I think we can we can just think about how could I develop more of these skills or even just how can I slow down a little bit and just ask the other person what could I do that would be helpful right now how could I be supportive and and again and then really listen to the answer and then do it rather than
[SPEAKER_02]: because what I often hear is, you know, people will ask and then the person doesn't do the specific request that was made, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: They continue on with the advice giving or the judgments.
[SPEAKER_02]: And again, that just feels doubly hard.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, really, now you didn't listen to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't care about what I need.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're not listening to, you know, the pain and the feelings that I have here.
[SPEAKER_02]: And again, like you think about the natural consequence that of that is, I'm not going to keep going to you as my parent, with my pain, with my challenges, I'm not going to be able to confiding you about the difficult things that are happening in my life.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then again, I think this is what happens is then the parent is like, but why aren't you telling me anything?
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, why didn't you tell me you were having, you know, marial problems or, you know, again, they feel like out of the blue, like my child doesn't talk to me anymore.
[SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_02]: But often, this is what has happened is I have tried to talk to you.
[SPEAKER_02]: And...
[SPEAKER_02]: you didn't listen like literally you didn't listen when I said what I needed from you or I you know try to share something with you and your judgmental about it is again you know we think about if that was a friend who was responding that way you're not going to keep going back to that friend with with those kind of personal vulnerable things about you you're going to start having more of a surface relationship with that person and then if the surface relationship
[SPEAKER_02]: or there's just again so much hurt that is happening in the relationship, very quickly gets to the point where you're like, I'm not sure that this is a relationship that's worth maintaining, because relationships do take a lot of effort to maintain.
[SPEAKER_01]: Very true.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think, you know, one of the points that you're
[SPEAKER_01]: you're bringing up is the vulnerability of when someone says, how can I support you?
[SPEAKER_01]: What do you mean?
[SPEAKER_01]: What's wrong?
[SPEAKER_01]: And you tell them, yeah, feel so vulnerable.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then to have the person that you you answer or that question, your parent, you say that to your parent.
[SPEAKER_01]: What I need from you is I need you to hear that I experienced this or I feel this way and the parents just like, I'm stupid, you know, or they just don't right they don't take seriously what you said they don't follow through on the type of support that
[SPEAKER_01]: you asked for and they said they would give, then it erodes the trust.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think so one of the problems in our culture in general is that we don't know how to communicate well.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's one reason why people go to therapies to learn how to really communicate better.
[SPEAKER_01]: And something that you and I were talking about before we started before I finally figured out how to get you in here into this life was that, you know, there's kind of this dismissiveness in the discussion out there in our culture about cutting ties, estrangement, boundaries, you know, adult children and their family of origin relationships.
[SPEAKER_01]: that it's kind of like this, it's framed as, you know, oh, there's this trend today of people seeing on social media that all the young people are cutting ties with their parents and you and I were talking about the question, is it just that young people today?
[SPEAKER_01]: These kids today,
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, or just conflict avoid it.
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't know how to deal with conflict.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's why this so called, you know, huge increase that I don't even know if it's really increasing, um, Or if it's been a problem for a long time, which is what we both.
[SPEAKER_01]: see.
[SPEAKER_01]: But is this so-called increase related to people just being conflict the boy that are not knowing how to communicate?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, what do you think?
[SPEAKER_03]: Question.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have I have a thought and
[SPEAKER_02]: And there might be an element of truth in that people in general today are conflict avoidant or don't have great communication skills.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm not going to completely dismiss that element of it.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, what I want to tend to hear around this is that the parent will
[SPEAKER_02]: I think be surprised that the child has cut off contact, like they didn't see it coming.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so it feels like the child never came to them and said, here are my concerns, or here's what needs to change in the relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so again, from the parents perspective, they feel like, well, the child has just avoided this difficult conversation with me.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if we could have only had this conversation, we could have hopefully worked things out.
[SPEAKER_02]: So they then in turn are labeling the child as conflict avoident or having poor communication skills.
[SPEAKER_02]: Which is like a really simple assessment of the problem.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I said, maybe not completely wrong, but I think there's a lot more to it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And again, if you're the parent in this situation, what I would encourage you to do is also to be thinking about
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, look, I can only control my part of this, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: I can only control what I'm doing in this relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have no control over whether my child is going to be conflict-devoidant.
[SPEAKER_02]: But what can I do?
[SPEAKER_02]: And what I can do is try to create a space where I am approachable.
[SPEAKER_02]: where it is easy for somebody to come to me with their concerns, with their criticisms, with the ways that I have hurt them.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because that's the only way that the repair is going to happen.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right?
[SPEAKER_02]: We're saying we all are saying like we need to go to have that conversation.
[SPEAKER_02]: So your job as the parent is to move out of my child as conflict devoidant and into
[SPEAKER_02]: Perhaps there's something that I have done that has needed difficult for them to come to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Is there something that I could do to create more of an emotional, safe space so that we could have this conversation?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because as I have said throughout this entire conversation, I think so much of this
[SPEAKER_02]: If you and I Laura are having a disagreement and every time we have a disagreement you yell at me and you criticize me or you shut me down, you have let me know that it's not safe for me to come to you with my concerns and my issues.
[SPEAKER_02]: So again, if that happens enough times,
[SPEAKER_02]: That's really causing me a lot of hurt and I would say, well, now this is becoming a strange analogy, but if you were my parent, I would say that would be even more painful than it would be if it was coming from say my friend, that's still very painful.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think the reality is, if your parent is criticizing you and yelling at you and calling you names, that's extremely damaging, no matter how old you are.
[SPEAKER_02]: You can be 50 years old and your parent does that to you.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's still really, really painful.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: So anyway, you know, again, eventually what happens is I don't feel like it's safe.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I'm not going to keep coming to you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not going to have a difficult conversation.
[SPEAKER_02]: I am going to avoid conflict with somebody who I am like pretty much like 99% sure is going to hurt me if I do that, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: That is preservation and I don't think we can fault people.
[SPEAKER_02]: For that, I can say, you know what, that is a good life skill is don't keep putting yourself in a situation to be emotionally hurt, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: If that has been the pattern and nothing else has changed, that's probably what's going to happen again.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I just, I can't, I would never say to somebody, we'll just keep going back for more emotional abuse.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, and the difference is, you know, the adult child can leave, you know, a child is when they're in a family where their needs aren't being met, whether it's emotional needs, physical needs, or there's abuse, they can't escape.
[SPEAKER_01]: They can't get away.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, I think that has a lot to do with why when someone reaches adulthood, if their parents continue to behave that way and they say,
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't have to put up with this anymore, you know, and then oftentimes they try and try and, you know, the parents just aren't hearing it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now speaking of not hearing it, one question I was asked to address here is jotted this down.
[SPEAKER_01]: no relationship with parents.
[SPEAKER_01]: They only have one extended family member who they still communicate with at all.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that person is very determined to stay connected but
[SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of the same dynamic as the parents that they're not really, you know, the adult child doesn't feel like they can really express to them and the person just isn't getting it.
[SPEAKER_01]: They seem like, you know, they're just like, oh, we're so close.
[SPEAKER_01]: And meanwhile, the adult child still feels uncomfortable in the relationship with them.
[SPEAKER_01]: What would you suggest for someone in that situation and how to deal with them?
[SPEAKER_01]: They've been trying to use the strategy of Grey Rock, which, you know, if people know what that is.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you know what it is?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you able to explain?
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: I kind of know that I don't, you know how to describe it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Kind of a like a low contact, but it's also not not sharing a lot with the other person.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's almost sort of like, let's have a surface kind of relationship with each other.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just sort of the minimal, but I'm not really going to talk to you about, you know, vulnerable things or things that matter a lot to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: And, and often that's that self protection happening right there, it's because I've shared those things with you in the past and you've used it against me or you've hurt me in your response there.
[SPEAKER_02]: So again, I'm going to maintain a little bit of contact, but it's not a close relationship by any means.
[SPEAKER_02]: Is it the other person seems to think we're having the close relationship, but that's not.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you know what I mean, I think the gray rock is fine.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's nothing wrong with that if it's working for people.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I guess at the end of the day you still at some point might be asking yourself what's the point of the relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: What am I getting out of this?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, there is a place in everybody's life.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think for acquaintances, you know, surface of shit.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's not as if I have a value.
[SPEAKER_02]: So if it is adding some value to your life, that person, like, I don't know, I'm just imagining, you know, if it's your anti-year, your grandma, or somebody like that, and that's still somebody that, well, I could call them and ask them,
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, if they had a family recipe or if they knew some family medical history like there is still something useful on me maintaining a relationship But if the answer is really no it just feels like a drain.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's an obligation.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's nothing that I'm getting out of the relationship
[SPEAKER_02]: then you may just get to a point where you say this is still more effort than it feels like it's worth.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think I agree with everything you said.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I want to say that for myself, I had a relationship with someone in my family who was abusive to me when I was younger and the person
[SPEAKER_01]: We were like kind of connected, but not once for, yeah, kind of removed.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I didn't have the same feeling of wanting connection with them.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't really want connection with them, but because they were with one of my parents, yeah, it was kind of like to be with in the relationship with my parent.
[SPEAKER_01]: I needed to
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I felt like I needed to kind of keep this a little bit more peaceful and but I realized at some point a couple years ago, just like, wow, this relationship is actually only peaceful because I don't say how I really feel.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it started to eat me up inside.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, this isn't
[SPEAKER_01]: working for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not, I'm not going to continue to do this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I don't have to do this.
[SPEAKER_02]: The idea of self abandonment.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, you had to write exactly, you were giving up something of yourself in order to have that relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: And again, like, that's not insignificant.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, that you couldn't either be truly yourself or you couldn't talk about things that were important to you.
[SPEAKER_02]: You couldn't address this issue.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's where I think we end up, you know, feeling like we're walking on eggshells in relationships or we're, you know, sort of shapeshifting and we're, you know, trying to just show up the way other people want us to and that's a, that's a, it's a lot of effort.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's a lot of energy that I could be using for other things.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, and it just, it takes a lot out of you because
[SPEAKER_02]: You can never relax and just be you.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're always having to be something else, or you're worried about what people are gonna think or do or say, and yeah, that's really, really helpful.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think, in sample, because it adds that other piece to it, because you're right, I mean, I think that's really something.
[SPEAKER_02]: If people can recognize that they are abandoning themselves in some way, in the relationship,
[SPEAKER_02]: The fact that's probably going to be hard and painful to maintain over time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I understand now that I was doing that as a trauma response.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wasn't consciously doing it, but once I realized that I had been doing it as a trauma response, I had to ask myself, like, how long am I going to abandon myself at what costs to myself?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because these things do impact our health, you know,
[SPEAKER_02]: and other relationships too.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep, but I wanted, you know, I really needed that relationship with that parent.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, it was like, it was kind of an unconscious choice, but if I had dramatically announced, I am no longer going to be in contact with you to that person, I'm sure they would have been like,
[SPEAKER_01]: What's your problem?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, but right, even though they know what they did, but just want everybody to know that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But um, okay, so this has gone on, it's been a very quick hour.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I know we need to wrap up, but we've got a couple of comments and I want to say something about your book Cutting Ties, too.
[SPEAKER_01]: So Patty said, I'd like to ask how someone
[SPEAKER_01]: for prioritizing themselves by choosing a strange meant because the guilt often seems to keep people stuck.
[SPEAKER_01]: And at that, they're going to regularly do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: That guilt.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's mean.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's how I would feel.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's mean.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's mean if I do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, wait a minute.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, who might be in nice too, not myself?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, you're right.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's actually, I mean, it's a huge question.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's a really important one.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, there's a lot to be said on that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm not sure you've been how to answer it really, really quickly here, other than to say, the guilt is, I mean, I would kind of look at the guilt as where is the guilt coming from?
[SPEAKER_02]: and sort of the external sources of guilt, the things that again people are explicitly saying to you or doing that are making you feel guilty, just general sort of cultural messages that make us feel guilty about roles and expectations and what we're not needing of those.
[SPEAKER_02]: And also keep in mind that in a lot of, you know, just sort of quote unquote dysfunctional families guilt is specifically used as a form of manipulation.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't want to undermine, you know, the importance of that, and you're nodding nail-loric, as you see, you see that, too, is that we are specifically told things, you know, that we should feel guilty or that we're doing something wrong as a way of controlling us.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I think sometimes on people see that that's what's happening, it's like something clicks.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I want to say they can completely turn off the guilt, but somehow it's like, you sort of see now, hey, this is an effort for somebody to try to control me and I'm not going for that anymore.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm I'm going to choose to not feel guilty about this because I'm not going to let them have that power over them.
[SPEAKER_02]: Perhaps the more complicated piece is the piece that we have internalized so much of this guilt and so much of this shame, and there's definitely a process or things that we can do.
[SPEAKER_02]: There are some in my book, even where we can look at.
[SPEAKER_02]: the things, the ways that we are thinking about things and about ourselves that reinforce those feelings of guilt and examine them so that we can then say do I really feel like this is wrong what I'm doing and again one like really simple way to do this is with the you know the
[SPEAKER_02]: great little therapeutic tool that we use all the time of just, you know, stepping outside of yourself and say, if this was a friend of mine, somebody that I cherished and they were in this situation and they had experienced exactly what I experienced and they decided to end this relationship, would I tell them that that is wrong or bad?
[SPEAKER_02]: and almost always the answer is when it's somebody else, you can say, no, of course, that's not wrong.
[SPEAKER_02]: That makes a lot of sense why they're doing that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's really healthy for them to look out for their own well being, to protect their mental health and so forth, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: We can see it when it's somebody else.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's just one great little helpful tool that you can come back to also to just, you know, again, sort of refraining that look at it from a different perspective and perhaps start to say, you know what, maybe I'm not, you know, such a terrible person or this isn't such a terrible thing for me to do that's really the way I've been conditioned to think that's what people want me to think.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think there's like so much empowerment in this place where you start to realize that you can choose to think about things differently.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not saying that's easy to do, but it's so empowering because you realize, oh my gosh.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't have to buy into all this crap that they've been telling me.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can choose to think of myself differently.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can choose to make my own choices and make my own judgments about them as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: But the reality is, of course, that it's a process.
[SPEAKER_02]: It takes effort and work to do that and so I don't certainly don't want to apply that.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like you can just do this one exercise or try it once.
[SPEAKER_02]: you know so many of ours are like we're steeped in guilt like that's what we've been raised with and you know it really permeates so much of our thinking without us even realizing it sometimes.
[SPEAKER_01]: It does and when you know another way and an additional way of looking at that is that like it's our young parts of our self if you look you know like take a parts work approach it's our young parts of our self that feel guilty like oh I don't want anyone to be mad at me
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, it's like, well, it's okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: First of all, it's okay to say no to someone that's treating us, you know, and as, you know, when you think about it, like, through the lens of repairing yourself, it's like, you're turning toward your younger self and saying, hey, it's okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know you feel really bad about this, but I'm saying that person's not.
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, not safe to be around and we're not going to spend time with them.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, it's kind of like, if you think about a child inside of you, the child is, you know, trusting you and you're like, I'm protecting you, little child, just the same way that we needed to be protected when we were young.
[SPEAKER_01]: So of course, that's also that's not just something
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so let me share that Heidi and Nick said, I've had nothing from the relationship with my mom for at least 12 years, total self of the element to keep the peace and boundaries with kindness, exhaustion.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I thank you for sharing that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I get that and then Heidi and Nick said, I think the guilt comes from the training since childhood to obeying, too.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, you know, it's like, I know that if I say no, there's gonna be a negative consequences,
[SPEAKER_01]: parents are going to be displeased with me, disproving, or worse, abusive, you know, scream at me, hit me, hurt me, shun me in some way.
[SPEAKER_01]: And those things are to our selves when we were children, those are those are life-threatening experiences.
[SPEAKER_01]: So,
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, as adults, like you said, you could be 50, but those moments come up and it feels the same.
[SPEAKER_01]: It feels just the same as it did, will make it little.
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's the thing is like, you can be full grown and you still crave your parents love their acceptance, their approval.
[SPEAKER_02]: There is just, there's something about the relationship that that is just baked in there that it is strong desire, you know, need that we all have for that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, I just like to normalize it for people because it seems to be universal as far as I can tell is that is so important to all of us, at least in this culture, maybe it's different other places, but there's nothing wrong with you for wanting that again, even when you're 50 years old and you're wanting your parents approval and not wanting to displace them.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a really strong poll and really strong motivator.
[SPEAKER_02]: for us.
[SPEAKER_02]: So just just understand that, that of course, when you go against that and you do something that you know they're going to be unhappy about, it doesn't mean it's something that you're doing that's wrong, but it is going to be painful because that is again, it is just a painful experience to have your parents be upset with you.
[SPEAKER_02]: But they are not the ones who actually get to make the judgment about what is right and what is wrong, especially for you as an adult, you get to decide that for yourself, but it's complicated.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it's so complicated.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm going to say that I've been heartened to see, especially this year.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if you've noticed this sharing, but like when I look on the therapist's list serves and Facebook groups, they're often requests for, you know, looking for a family therapist for two adult children and their mom who are trying to resolve some things.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when,
[SPEAKER_01]: It's safe, when it feels safe to go to a family therapy, if you believe that your parent really is serious about trying to change this dynamic between you, that can be a good option.
[SPEAKER_01]: And maybe the fork is at a point or when parents aren't,
[SPEAKER_01]: necessarily really open, but adult children are struggling with the boundaries that they want to have in their relationship with their parents.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want everyone who's listening to this and we're going to share this on therapy chat podcasts, so a lot more people will hear it too.
[SPEAKER_01]: To know that your book, even though it's called cutting ties with parents, it's not like a instruction manual of how
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a lot more nuanced and complex than that, so will you talk for a little bit about how people can use your book to kind of help them understand what's going on inside themselves?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, and thank you for that, and it's really, despite what it might sound like, it is not a book that is saying everybody should estranged themselves from their parents or this is the solution for everybody, but it is specifically for people who are estranged from their parents or who are thinking about it, and it really speaks to how do I make peace with that decision.
[SPEAKER_02]: And again, part of that's the guilt that we were talking about, but there's, there's a lot of other emotions in there, the anxiety, the second guessing, the shame, all of the messages that we get from other people that keep us in those relationships that pressure us.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we really speak to all of those different elements of it of us trying to, like I said, kind of make peace with the decision.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then figure out, how why heal?
[SPEAKER_02]: from this and that's healing from both the pain of the astrangement itself.
[SPEAKER_02]: How do I grieve that relationship?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because that's a very complicated relationship to grieve.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's also how do I do some of the healing work for all of the things that led up to the astrangement?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because as we've been saying, it's
[SPEAKER_02]: it's not just one thing, it's not just something that happened to you and adult hood, it's chances are it's lots of lots of things over the years so we're really talking about some of those developmental trauma experiences and trying to heal that and then it's also about
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to move forward with my life as a person who is not in contact with their parents.
[SPEAKER_02]: How do I handle holidays and family events and how do I talk to my own children about it?
[SPEAKER_02]: How do I handle if my parents keep trying to have contact with me?
[SPEAKER_02]: All of those boundary violations that keep coming at me.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then also, how do I create
[SPEAKER_02]: my own support network, how do I, you know, sort of move forward, feeling good about myself, and live as an authentic life, I would say.
[SPEAKER_02]: So anyway, there's a lot packed in there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wonderful.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, I think what I'm thinking about is like, how much, I said this a little bit about my own experience, but how much energy is spent focusing on the hurts of a childhood that where your needs weren't met and then the ongoing on, on, on.
[SPEAKER_01]: unpleasant or unsatisfying, unfulfilling relationships and it's altered with family of origin when it's that way.
[SPEAKER_01]: And obviously not every family's like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But that takes up a tremendous amount of people's emotional bandwidth and energy.
[SPEAKER_01]: And as you were talking about that, I thought, wow, like just thinking about how much space one could have.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, yes, there's a big thing to grieve and recover from.
[SPEAKER_01]: But suddenly you've got all this other space to just be in live and find out who you are and how you want to do your life and your relationships going forward.
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, again, not to diminish any of the painful, difficult parts of it, but that is the other side of that coin, which is there's often a lot of freedom and relief that people find.
[SPEAKER_02]: As you would expect, if you are getting out of
[SPEAKER_02]: an oppressive or abusive relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like you said, once you kind of get to the other side of that, you know, I hear similar things from people who get divorced, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like sort of like, oh, I can now live my life in the way that I want to live it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can make different choices.
[SPEAKER_02]: be more authentic.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can be more fulfilled.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can create other kinds of relationships in my liking.
[SPEAKER_02]: And like you said, I mean, there's like there's literally like this space in this energy for it.
[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't happen immediately, but you get there and you kind of get to that other side of it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you're like, wow, you know,
[SPEAKER_02]: There's possibility of happiness over there if I can get myself there, but, you know, of course sometimes there's this, you know, big obstacle right in front of me, which is I just, you know, feel so conflicted about what to do and how to move forward and I don't know how to do it because, you know, really, you're sort of like, I've got no good choices here, you know, the choice that I really want to have the health and relationship with my parents.
[SPEAKER_02]: It is not a viable option, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So now I'm stuck with, you know, I continue this, you know, really difficult relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: I get out of this and that's, you know, fraught with the difference that of challenges, but yeah, there is, I would say light at the end of the tunnel.
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to say that and, you know, I will just say that for those of you who are struggling in the midst of all of this,
[SPEAKER_02]: I have, I have known many people who have decided to cut ties with their parents or other family members and they do get to a place, a feeling, okay about the decision, they do find some peace in it and they really do feel like it was the right decision for them.
[SPEAKER_02]: and they are able to move forward and do the healing that's really important for them and and really come out a bit in a better place I would say and there are other people of course who are able to have a period of a strange when and then there is reconciliation and if that works for you and it's a possibility then absolutely that's a wonderful thing as well and I think of course it's just really hard because you never really know which path
[SPEAKER_02]: you're supposed to be taking away.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's no guarantees.
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't really ever know, but you just got to kind of keep putting one foot in front of the other and moving down it and I think to staying open with no expectations of what's going to happen.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I agree.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, for me, I was
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, totally strange where we didn't talk at all with the one parent that I was talking about and then, you know, it's not like that much change between us when the apology and reconciliation happened other than it was just like, you know,
[SPEAKER_01]: We both knew that we wanted to be connected, you know, instead of both of us feeling that the other one was kind of rejecting You were like rejecting each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I never expected a certain outcome.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was I was Seeking healing for my own well-being and my own, you know, to to live as my most true self and
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, the challenges that made me want to distance from them were showing up in many areas of my life.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it was kind of something that I didn't have an option not to address if I wanted to like be able to keep moving forward in my life.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, it's always like
[SPEAKER_01]: and, you know, living with, in accordance with my values of, you know, being able to be the who I am.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we have to, yeah, Darren, this has been so fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I know it's a tough topic, but it's an important topic.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that, you know, judging by the comments that we have,
[SPEAKER_01]: a lot of other people have found it to be valuable too.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm happy that we'll be able to share this.
[SPEAKER_01]: It'll be on Instagram and then it'll come out on therapy chat in the next couple weeks as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: But Sharon, since, you know, I know we're not on the podcast right now, but was we're on Instagram live, but let's just tell everybody where they can find you off of Instagram.
[SPEAKER_01]: Where can they find all your amazing work?
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, well, my website is livewell with Sharon Martin.com and from there you can find all my other socials and my blog and my books and all that stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: Go there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Beautiful.
[SPEAKER_01]: And for me, if you are looking, well, if you're looking for a trauma therapist because you need some support from, you know, your relationship with your family or any other reason related to trauma, you can
[SPEAKER_01]: find a trauma therapist at fine trauma therapy.com or everything that we're doing is at trauma therapist network.com.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, Sharon, thank you again for joining me here.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was so fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: Everyone, thank you for being here, especially.
[SPEAKER_01]: Patsy and Ladana, who I call friends and everyone who has your comments and it's just participate.
[SPEAKER_01]: We really appreciate you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you, everybody.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm just glad I was able to get the technology working case.
[SPEAKER_01]: Me too.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's not my forte, but all right.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm going to go ahead and stop it now.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[SPEAKER_01]: But by everyone, you take care.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll be a wonderful weekend.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening to Therapy Chat with your host, Laura Reagan, LCSWC.
[SPEAKER_00]: For more information, please visit Therapy Chat podcast.com.