WEBVTT 00:00.031 --> 00:21.926 [SPEAKER_00]: This is the Jockel Underground podcast number 195 with Echo Trolls, and me, Jockel, we have various questions from the troopers, the members of the underground, and we are going to provide guidance, suggestions, recommendations, courses of actions, and some cases answers to your questions. 00:22.547 --> 00:23.068 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's get into it. 00:23.048 --> 00:25.011 [SPEAKER_01]: We're getting through this maze of life. 00:25.212 --> 00:25.893 [SPEAKER_00]: You maze of life. 00:25.913 --> 00:26.554 [SPEAKER_01]: It can be a maze. 00:26.854 --> 00:27.235 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 00:27.255 --> 00:28.277 [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes take a wrong turn. 00:28.858 --> 00:31.943 [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes somebody knows to tell you, go left, go right, go straight. 00:32.864 --> 00:32.984 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 00:33.004 --> 00:34.327 [SPEAKER_00]: Go turn, go back. 00:34.347 --> 00:34.727 [SPEAKER_00]: Don't go down. 00:34.807 --> 00:36.991 [SPEAKER_00]: Don't go any further down that particular path. 00:37.452 --> 00:38.293 [SPEAKER_00]: Go down this other path. 00:38.754 --> 00:39.635 [SPEAKER_00]: The path of discipline. 00:40.016 --> 00:43.301 [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes you can take one, two, three, four wrong turns. 00:43.842 --> 00:45.906 [SPEAKER_01]: And it takes more than just one correction. 00:46.226 --> 00:47.969 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe two, maybe three corrections you can say. 00:48.009 --> 00:48.971 [SPEAKER_01]: Can happen. 00:48.991 --> 00:49.832 [SPEAKER_01]: So we're here for a walk. 00:50.167 --> 00:50.974 [SPEAKER_01]: Alright, what do we got? 00:51.418 --> 00:51.903 [SPEAKER_01]: First question. 00:52.891 --> 00:54.203 [SPEAKER_01]: Hello Mr. Willink. 00:54.790 --> 00:57.933 [SPEAKER_01]: My company buys in fully to extreme ownership. 00:58.214 --> 01:00.476 [SPEAKER_01]: I have a question for you, tie to cover and move. 01:01.137 --> 01:06.462 [SPEAKER_01]: Is there ever a time in your experience that covering and moving becomes ineffective in the wrong move? 01:06.782 --> 01:14.330 [SPEAKER_01]: Like if you help your team, your teammate, but they are inherently toxic and their involvement in most things are negatively affecting work. 01:14.951 --> 01:21.878 [SPEAKER_01]: Or is that any conceivable or, or is that any conceivable scenario that cover and move is not the right call? 01:24.119 --> 01:28.510 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, of course anything that you do to an extreme 01:29.705 --> 01:30.446 [SPEAKER_00]: can make it bad. 01:31.848 --> 01:36.453 [SPEAKER_00]: And this is why we wrote the record out of your leadership because we wanted to make sure that everyone understood that. 01:36.653 --> 01:40.658 [SPEAKER_00]: This includes taking ownership, even the idea of taking ownership. 01:40.698 --> 01:42.861 [SPEAKER_00]: If you take that to an extreme and I'm going to own every plan. 01:42.901 --> 01:43.862 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to own every decision. 01:44.202 --> 01:47.466 [SPEAKER_00]: And now echo that works for me and my hierarchy. 01:47.787 --> 01:50.310 [SPEAKER_00]: He now has no input because I'm taking ownership of everything. 01:50.350 --> 01:53.453 [SPEAKER_00]: So even extreme ownership can be too extreme. 01:54.635 --> 01:59.020 [SPEAKER_00]: So cover move is the same thing. 01:59.000 --> 02:01.322 [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, let's say they're showing up late all the time. 02:02.743 --> 02:04.305 [SPEAKER_00]: And you keep covering for them. 02:04.425 --> 02:05.185 [SPEAKER_00]: Look, you show up late. 02:05.326 --> 02:05.946 [SPEAKER_00]: Echo shows a plate. 02:05.986 --> 02:07.427 [SPEAKER_00]: I have cover for them all day, right? 02:07.748 --> 02:08.448 [SPEAKER_00]: All day, I got you. 02:08.508 --> 02:09.049 [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, no big deal. 02:09.790 --> 02:14.113 [SPEAKER_00]: But two days, three days, one week, a month, your late late late late late. 02:14.554 --> 02:15.314 [SPEAKER_00]: You don't learn. 02:16.295 --> 02:18.157 [SPEAKER_00]: You interrupt my capacity. 02:18.577 --> 02:20.479 [SPEAKER_00]: The team is ultimately going to suffer. 02:20.519 --> 02:21.460 [SPEAKER_00]: And the mission is going to suffer. 02:22.441 --> 02:27.285 [SPEAKER_00]: So yes, there's a point where if you keep covering for someone, 02:28.531 --> 02:29.592 [SPEAKER_00]: where it becomes negative. 02:30.073 --> 02:36.382 [SPEAKER_00]: And not to mention if someone's doing something a moral illegal or an ethical, and you cover for them, you're a culpable for that behavior as well. 02:36.402 --> 02:37.423 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's the clear one. 02:38.805 --> 02:43.512 [SPEAKER_00]: But it sounds to me probably what this person needs is like the escalation of counseling. 02:44.333 --> 02:53.526 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, like, I'm not saying you need to go at him head on, but asking some earnest questions, like, hey, dude, how do you, 02:53.506 --> 03:20.222 [SPEAKER_00]: think other people perceive you when you act that way in the meeting like I know you're trying to get your point across but don't you think that you're making other people defensive or hey do you think that you're behavior and how do you think that's helping like unify the team and helps us positively get the mission done because like what is it you're trying to make happen or like hey do you think that when you get that super negative in front of the team do you 03:20.202 --> 03:32.002 [SPEAKER_00]: You see, I'm just asking some questions and my goal in a situation like that is to try and help the person see how they're being perceived by others, right? 03:32.422 --> 03:38.312 [SPEAKER_00]: Not to tell them how they're being perceived by others, but to help them figure out how they're being perceived by others. 03:39.625 --> 03:56.115 [SPEAKER_00]: That's what I want, and then if that indirect approach starts to, it doesn't, you don't get anywhere with them in the key behavior in the same way, you might have to increase directness to make sure that the team is not negatively impacted, right? 03:57.209 --> 04:13.877 [SPEAKER_00]: The cover move is great, but if I end up covering all the time for someone that's not doing their job, consistently not doing their job, consistently showing up late, consistently not performing, consistently being inherently toxic, then that is not good. 04:15.179 --> 04:17.784 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's why we initiate that escalation of counseling. 04:17.804 --> 04:22.592 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's the way it is, just like everything else in leadership, just like everything else in life, you gotta be balanced. 04:23.888 --> 04:30.301 [SPEAKER_01]: Let me ask you this send it let's say you know like question about the maze here Yeah, a little bit. 04:30.402 --> 04:32.827 [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no, this is actually this total hypothetical again. 04:32.847 --> 04:37.396 [SPEAKER_01]: Take a mini particular person who's like this But when I want to hear the idea of what if this person is toxic? 04:38.198 --> 04:42.467 [SPEAKER_01]: So you know some people they can be like kind of good at their job or whatever or or good enough. 04:42.507 --> 04:43.669 [SPEAKER_01]: We'll say at their job 04:43.649 --> 05:01.067 [SPEAKER_01]: but they're toxic in the sense that they're super argumentative, they're blunt, unnecessarily, maybe a little crass, maybe even like, they complain a lot of pessimistic, just to kind of down to ruin some short-term relationships, you know, like kind of that kind of person. 05:01.047 --> 05:21.351 [SPEAKER_01]: you know, and to get the whole deal right and after a while it's kind of like yeah they're kind of good at their job but above me on that they're just like not the person to be around you know like no one likes working with this person kind of a thing and it's face it that's not like some rare thing that when you think about it it's kind of like oh we all kind of either have or do you know something like this 05:21.449 --> 05:31.071 [SPEAKER_01]: is okay so consider this idea of hey we're gonna like not help this person or we're gonna kind of deliberately straight up deliberately 05:32.468 --> 05:42.607 [SPEAKER_01]: withhold the cover and move idea, you know, like if if I see this person about to fail on something, I'm not going to give them some easy advice. 05:42.627 --> 05:43.669 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to let them fail. 05:43.870 --> 05:50.362 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, and I'm almost kind of embracing and encouraging his failure just so he can kind of face himself out of that organization. 05:50.442 --> 05:51.945 [SPEAKER_01]: We'll say, right? 05:51.925 --> 05:56.031 [SPEAKER_01]: How much value is there to that or am I just being toxic now? 05:56.431 --> 06:07.367 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think it would depend on the situation where, you know, how much of you try to help them, how much of you try to steer them in the right direction. 06:07.407 --> 06:13.596 [SPEAKER_00]: And I have said before two people, like they're going to dig their own grave. 06:13.576 --> 06:30.219 [SPEAKER_00]: Like at a certain point you like hey, they're gonna dig their own grave and and you actually don't want to get your hands and they're right So that does apply sometimes You know you always make a concerted effort to try and help someone of course you want to help people I you want them there you got you got them hired. 06:30.239 --> 06:39.832 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean not just just beyond like the human component of like hey dude If I see you going in the wrong direction, I'm gonna try and help you enough first start with an indirect question like hey Dude, you know, I've only noticed this when you're late like you cuz everything okay. 06:39.992 --> 06:42.756 [SPEAKER_00]: You know that whole thing we've been through a thousand times 06:42.736 --> 06:52.134 [SPEAKER_00]: But not only that, but as a business, you hired the person you put in the effort, you're given them, you've issued them their laptop or their gear or whatever, like they, like we want people to be successful. 06:52.956 --> 07:01.713 [SPEAKER_00]: But if they start to be, when I thought you were going to go with this question, I was like, hey, if they're negative attitude, but they're a good performer, what do you do? 07:01.833 --> 07:04.879 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, you get out your scale and you weigh, 07:04.859 --> 07:18.342 [SPEAKER_00]: you know what is the what is is this a net positive or net negative then if it's net positive okay we try and help the person but if it's in that negative Well, we don't really want that especially once we've tried to make it in that positive We've tried to make those adjustments. 07:18.362 --> 07:29.922 [SPEAKER_00]: We tried to count so we tried to talk to them and just still ends up being a net negative at a certain point you go okay And then it's like well, we're gonna let them dig at our own grave and you know how long to take someone to dig to our grave 07:29.902 --> 07:34.228 [SPEAKER_00]: Usually when they're that toxic that they can't be corrected, don't dig them that long. 07:35.209 --> 07:38.154 [SPEAKER_00]: So, yes, sometimes that is an appropriate course of action. 07:39.115 --> 07:54.036 [SPEAKER_00]: And the other thing that's kind of, I guess what I use the digging their own grave is sometimes I've told you, I've been in direct with you, I've escalated directness, and I've literally now told you like, hey, if you keep acting this way, you're not gonna be here anymore. 07:54.016 --> 07:55.418 [SPEAKER_00]: And you still don't listen to me. 07:55.778 --> 07:59.604 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's not until you start to dig, you start looking wrong on a way to second. 07:59.824 --> 08:00.805 [SPEAKER_00]: I can see where this is going. 08:01.186 --> 08:07.014 [SPEAKER_00]: And you self-correct because you were able to realize that what I was saying wasn't just my opinion, it was for real. 08:08.296 --> 08:16.227 [SPEAKER_00]: So for me, the last sort of step in counseling in the escalation of counseling, the last step is like, okay, 08:16.527 --> 08:24.057 [SPEAKER_00]: Good luck and you watch them dig their own grave and on the way out, you know, as they're digging, you're like, hey, do you notice it's getting dark around you right now? 08:24.438 --> 08:27.382 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you notice that there's like depth underneath your feet? 08:27.422 --> 08:29.384 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you notice that there's a big pile of dirt next to you? 08:29.685 --> 08:30.506 [SPEAKER_00]: That's going to cover you. 08:31.086 --> 08:32.028 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you realize that? 08:32.508 --> 08:34.251 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you realize that like you haven't gotten any calls? 08:34.291 --> 08:35.392 [SPEAKER_00]: You haven't got this person. 08:35.432 --> 08:36.734 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, this thing has happened. 08:36.754 --> 08:37.695 [SPEAKER_00]: You haven't gotten there. 08:37.715 --> 08:38.136 [SPEAKER_00]: Whatever. 08:38.516 --> 08:40.459 [SPEAKER_00]: Like all those things are adding up. 08:40.642 --> 08:41.963 [SPEAKER_00]: You're not getting invited to the meeting. 08:42.664 --> 08:44.465 [SPEAKER_00]: You haven't been asked to take lead on this project. 08:44.565 --> 08:46.127 [SPEAKER_00]: All those things, you know what that is? 08:46.147 --> 08:47.188 [SPEAKER_00]: That's you digging your own grave. 08:47.808 --> 08:52.152 [SPEAKER_00]: So sometimes the reality doesn't set in until they've started dug their own grave a little bit. 08:52.753 --> 09:00.920 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's sort of my final, I would say my final step in escalation of counting is like, okay, dude, I'm telling you, like, this isn't gonna work out well. 09:00.940 --> 09:09.467 [SPEAKER_00]: I had a, I was working with a CEO that I told, hey, if you keep acting like this, you are going to get fired. 09:09.447 --> 09:12.511 [SPEAKER_00]: And he said, they can't fire me. 09:12.752 --> 09:13.613 [SPEAKER_00]: I created this company. 09:13.633 --> 09:17.759 [SPEAKER_00]: I was like Okay, I was like listen dude. 09:17.839 --> 09:21.625 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm telling you like the board This is not just not your company anymore. 09:21.705 --> 09:22.606 [SPEAKER_00]: It was your company. 09:22.646 --> 09:23.948 [SPEAKER_00]: You did create it good job. 09:24.268 --> 09:30.898 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not your company anymore And if you proceed like this, you will get fired and by the way, the board told me 09:31.942 --> 09:32.623 [SPEAKER_00]: You will get fired. 09:32.924 --> 09:33.445 [SPEAKER_00]: I told him that. 09:33.485 --> 09:35.830 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, the bird told me you will get fired. 09:35.850 --> 09:37.233 [SPEAKER_00]: This isn't me making stuff up. 09:37.814 --> 09:38.235 [SPEAKER_00]: You got fired. 09:39.498 --> 09:40.700 [SPEAKER_00]: That's a joke, dude. 09:40.720 --> 09:43.867 [SPEAKER_00]: So, yes, can you go too far to cover move? 09:43.887 --> 09:47.976 [SPEAKER_00]: You can go too far with any of these concepts, but that is how our handle it. 09:47.996 --> 09:48.938 [SPEAKER_00]: Last glation counseling. 09:49.419 --> 09:51.142 [SPEAKER_00]: And eventually, do you have to let someone dig their own grave? 09:51.162 --> 09:51.503 [SPEAKER_00]: Yep. 09:51.770 --> 09:54.614 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you can also just fire them. 09:54.634 --> 09:56.556 [SPEAKER_00]: You can also be like, hey, look, we've done everything for you. 09:56.836 --> 09:57.717 [SPEAKER_00]: This was your last warning. 09:58.138 --> 09:58.739 [SPEAKER_00]: You didn't heat it. 09:59.359 --> 09:59.760 [SPEAKER_00]: You're out of here. 09:59.860 --> 10:05.847 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, because the escalation of counseling goes into written paperwork, it goes into a personnel improvement program. 10:05.888 --> 10:06.809 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like the whole line yards. 10:07.229 --> 10:09.412 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and by the end of it, it's like, yeah, you're not going to be here anymore. 10:09.852 --> 10:11.955 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so it's, it's, it's, it's, it's. 10:11.935 --> 10:34.069 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm thinking of being actually in the situation because like there's such thing as people who have like a bad attitude and do all these things yet They do technically do their job for sure and Basically someone who runs everyone the wrong way in every possible way aside from on paper You seem saying like you know the guy's the meeting who's and there's also there's also people that you are okay Cool the person's a really good performer. 10:34.189 --> 10:39.698 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm gonna isolate him as much as I can I'm gonna let them kind of do their do what they have to do to get the work done 10:39.678 --> 10:48.256 [SPEAKER_00]: Mitigate as much as I can with the rest of the group because they're, you know, they have a bad They have a negative attitude and I can still let them do that. 10:48.477 --> 10:58.237 [SPEAKER_00]: So yes, I will try isolation as a couple So that is a little excerpt of what we are doing on the Jocco underground podcast. 10:58.317 --> 10:59.560 [SPEAKER_00]: So if you want to continue to listen and 11:01.126 --> 11:28.095 [SPEAKER_00]: go to jockelunderground.com and subscribe and we're doing this we're doing this to mitigate our reliance on external platforms so we are not subject to their control and we are doing this so that we can support the jockel podcast which will remain as is free for all as long as we can keep it that way but we but we are doing this so we don't have to be under the control of 11:28.075 --> 11:31.487 [SPEAKER_00]: sponsors and we're doing it so we can give you. 11:32.935 --> 11:48.895 [SPEAKER_00]: more control, more interaction, more direct connections, better communications with us, and to do that, we are building a website right now, where we'll build the utilize to strengthen this legion of troopers that are in the game with us. 11:49.276 --> 11:52.019 [SPEAKER_00]: So thank you, it's jacco underground.com. 11:52.360 --> 11:58.167 [SPEAKER_00]: It costs $8 and $18 a month, and if you can't afford to support us, 11:58.771 --> 12:11.211 [SPEAKER_00]: We can still support you just email assistance at jockelonderground.com and we'll get you taken care of until then we will see you mobilized underground.