[SPEAKER_02]: and welcome to our show.
[SPEAKER_02]: The shit no one tells you about writing.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm best selling author Bianca Marie, and I'm joined by C.C.
[SPEAKER_02]: Lira of Wendy Sherman Associates and Carly Waters of PS Literary.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hi everyone, welcome to today's author interview.
[SPEAKER_02]: Today's guest is the New York Times bestselling author of Murder Road, the book of Cold Cases, The Sundan Motel, and The Broken Girls.
[SPEAKER_02]: She spent 20 years behind the scenes in the television business before leaving to write full time.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's my pleasure to welcome Simone St James.
[SPEAKER_02]: Simone, welcome to the show.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hi, thank you for having me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much for joining us.
[SPEAKER_02]: I tried to get you on the show for the sundown motel and wasn't able to manage to arrange that one.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I was very, very happy to get you for this one.
[SPEAKER_02]: For those of you watching on the YouTube channel, I'm holding up the book.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's called a box full of darkness.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a very striking, creepy cover, absolutely love it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to read you the flap copy just to set the stage and then we're going to dive in.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, strange things happen in Fell, New York.
[SPEAKER_02]: A mysterious drowning at the town's roadside motel that an explained death of a young girl whose body is left by the railroad tracks.
[SPEAKER_02]: For the Esmi siblings Violet, Fell and Doty, the final straw was the shocking disappearance of their little brother.
[SPEAKER_02]: It started as a normal game of hiding seek.
[SPEAKER_02]: The three close their eyes
[SPEAKER_02]: But this time they never found their brother.
[SPEAKER_02]: He was gone and the ongoing search efforts turned up no clues.
[SPEAKER_02]: As the parents grew increasingly distant, Violet Fale and Doty were each haunted by visions and frightening events that made them leave town and never look back.
[SPEAKER_02]: Violet still sees dead people, spirit who remind her of sister, the menacing presence that terrorized her for years.
[SPEAKER_02]: And now
[SPEAKER_02]: because Ben is back and he's ready to lead them to the answers they've longed for and long feared.
[SPEAKER_02]: If the ghosts are fell, don't get them first.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, so don't don't don't.
[SPEAKER_02]: So much to love there, okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: So one thing, I was not expecting a return to the turn of fell again after the sun down motel.
[SPEAKER_02]: I devoured that book, I absolutely loved it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Can you tell us a bit about the choice there?
[SPEAKER_02]: to go return to foul.
[SPEAKER_00]: It really just came down to I had the story idea first.
[SPEAKER_00]: I had the idea of some kids playing hide and seek.
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the kids hide never comes out.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it's kind of a locked door mystery because then I added in that it was snowing that day.
[SPEAKER_00]: So there was no tracks and no tire tracks outside the house.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a vanishing inside this house.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I didn't know what the answer to the mystery was.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was just sort of the germ of an idea.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I pondered it for a while.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I thought, I wouldn't.
[SPEAKER_00]: At one point, I was pondering it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I thought, God, those other kids who were playing hide and seek.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, they would just, they would just be traumatized for life.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then it was like, oh, that's the story.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, that's the key of the story.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I built around that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then once I had built around this mystery in these characters and these kids and how these kids had grown up.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I had all the stuff in my head.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I thought, well, where is this set?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I thought, well, this is a creepy thing that happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it just kind of clicked one day.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, well, I wrote a creepy town in Sundown, Motel.
[SPEAKER_00]: And at the time, I didn't know, but a lot of readers really responded to that town.
[SPEAKER_00]: They really liked it.
[SPEAKER_00]: They really liked that idea.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I was like, well, why don't I mean, this story is creepy, and it's about a family.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was just like, wow, I mean, it just makes sense that it would happen in this town.
[SPEAKER_00]: And from there, everything just sort of snowballed.
[SPEAKER_00]: Everything just sort of made sense after that.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's like all these puzzle pieces coming into place where I was like Oh, this is definitely the town where they grew up and it just sort of added another layer to the story that I already had cooking
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and it's wonderful for people who love that book who suddenly are like, oh, we back yeah, and we thought we were done with that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And now we recognize these these incidences.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, but it's important to also note that you don't have to read that book.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is not a sequel.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, um, there's just sort of little Easter eggs about that book.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you've read that book, but if you haven't read that book, this is, I mean, this is completely, there's there's nothing plot-wise that comes over from that book into this one.
[SPEAKER_02]: not at all but if you haven't read that book and you read this one you are going to I promise you going to want to go back and read that one even though you don't need to just the illusions to the hotel or creepy enough that you like oh my god I have to know so did that also inform the setting someone in terms of timeline because what I'm always saying on the podcast is that we need intentionality like if a story takes place in the 70s why if it takes
[SPEAKER_02]: And so the sitting here is that in the sundown hotel we had one storyline in the past sitting 1982 and then we had a prison day one and in a box full of darkness we have the prison day timeline as 1989 but there's a lot that happened in the past.
[SPEAKER_02]: So was it that you were always going to
[SPEAKER_02]: That's why I'm saying it at that time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's a good question.
[SPEAKER_00]: I do think Fel came first.
[SPEAKER_00]: The decision to put it in Fel came first.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was playing around with different areas for this story.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the idea of Fel came first and then I thought, well, if I set it in Fel, I wanted it to be after the kind of between those two timelines, which is where it ended up.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I wanted it to be because
[SPEAKER_00]: because without any spoilers but the sundown motel covers a lot of murders that have happened up to the point of the nineteen eighty two time line and i wanted this setting to be after all of those murders had happened and after the first time line of the sundown had happened and that i did want to set another book sort of in the eighties but i wanted it to be later in the eighties because murder road was set in the nineties
[SPEAKER_00]: and i'm really enjoying that that time era of course i'm old enough to remember it but also i'm really enjoying writing in that era because i get to forget about the internet and cell phones when i'm telling a story especially when i'm telling a mystery when i'm telling suspense and there are plenty of contemporary suspense writers who do it absolutely incredible job of it but personally i like
[SPEAKER_00]: to I don't want to write about people Googling things and looking things up and texting and that's just me and there are plenty of writers to do an incredible job but I really like going just back far enough into the past that people are on the phone or you've got to get in your current go talk to somebody to ask some questions and they're looking up old newspapers and to me that's fun like that's fun part of the story so it all kind of came together where I did want to set it in the past and I also wanted to put it in foul and I also wanted to put it in
[SPEAKER_00]: timelines of the sundown motel.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it worked brilliantly.
[SPEAKER_02]: I did think that it was a story that could have been contemporary because they weren't like the misunderstandings, you know, like with my last book, I put it on a remote island and there's no electricity and there's no cell phones.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, that's fine.
[SPEAKER_02]: Specifically because I didn't want it was modern day, but I didn't want people to be able to Google things and reach out to people for help, etc.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this book that could have worked, I think,
[SPEAKER_02]: perfect in a contemporary way, but in terms of the setting, it really makes sense.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I love those little nostalgic things because I think you mentioned somebody typing in word perfect.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, oh my god, that's what it used to be called.
[SPEAKER_02]: I forgot that's what it used to be called.
[SPEAKER_02]: So these all these little, you know, things that that do make in nostalgic for that era.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and it was also hard to do with the fact that, you know, this mystery of their little brother disappearing happened in their childhood.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't have chapters that are written in their childhood timeline.
[SPEAKER_00]: Everything is written in the one timeline in 1989.
[SPEAKER_00]: But they were calling things or trying to figure out things that happened 20 years ago.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I also had to be conscious of like, okay, so when was their childhood, because there's not only when this story is set,
[SPEAKER_00]: And I wanted to be comfortable with both of those because their parents and their trials have come into it and it was like, well, that was in the 60s.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you're going to see very clearly that that was kind of like a different sort of era.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it has also had to do with kind of a generational thing as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, I think the idea of get Falcon first, 1989 as a setting did not come for a Falcon first year.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and also like the parenting style, you know, of the sixties is so different to like, if you had a contemporary story, you know, you're pretty much raised by wolves.
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like a generation was raised by wolves, I personally know where the hell we were, where it was, you know, if it was more recent, there'd be much more helicopter parenting and parents would be seeking therapy after their childhood past, which means they would be handling it much better than what they did, et cetera, as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and that all plays into the story, because these characters have had this specific childhood where this traumatic event happened and they received absolutely no help with it, and so that was a bit more believable in a past timeline, of course, I mean that still happens, but it's more believable to the reader in a past timeline.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: So for our listeners again, when we're always saying there must be intentionality, this discussion is really brought to the forefront what kind of intentionality was applied in terms of choosing the setting, choosing the timelines, etc.
[SPEAKER_02]: Is there a reason, Simone, why you didn't want to do the multi timeline like you did in sung-down motel, where you didn't want to show
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the modern day, whereas you rather just stayed in the modern day and then had sort of flashbacks and conversations to the past.
[SPEAKER_00]: one of the themes of the book is memories and our memories of our own past and our own childhood and these are three siblings and you know they all remember things but do they remember everything exactly the same and so if I put an actual chapters in their past timeline it would be like telling the reader here's definitively what happened and I wanted everything to be seen
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, do you remember that?
[SPEAKER_00]: I remember that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, why did, what was happening?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, why did we not, you know, why do you remember this?
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I really wanted it to be through that lens.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so a dual timeline.
[SPEAKER_00]: And of course, you can always do un reliable narrator on either timeline, but a dual timeline if I put a timeline back in that childhood, you're kind of giving the message to the reader.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm giving you the answer.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, here's what really happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I didn't want to do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I wanted everything to be,
[SPEAKER_00]: seen through the lens of these people who are trying to figure out what happened to the readers along for the ride for that psychologically.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, love that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So again, that intentionality comes in.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not just, oh, I'm, you know, I think this is just kind of the way I'm going.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I know that you said, for Sunday on Motel, you did a lot of listening to podcasts, like true crime podcasts to figure out how people solve crimes and the process.
[SPEAKER_02]: This book touches on UFOs and people who believe in UFOs and
[SPEAKER_02]: people who, you know, studied that kind of thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: So again, was it back to podcast and research on that to be able to integrate that?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I did a bunch.
[SPEAKER_00]: I did some research on that and I mean, there's a lot.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, if you want to look up, look up like people who believe you of Oconspiracies, man, you can find that.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I wanted it to be, I didn't want to treat it like a joke.
[SPEAKER_00]: so-called career isn't a really a paid career but the so-called career looking up, you know, looking to investigating UFOs, you know, he has his reasons for doing that and I wanted to have a little compassion with that where some people do this because they are trying to solve
[SPEAKER_00]: They're trying to answer their own questions and they think that this might be the way to do it and they some other questions are deep and kind of painful and they're trying to look for answers wherever they can find them and so I did do some research, but I also wanted to take it seriously in the sense of.
[SPEAKER_00]: why is this character fixated on this idea?
[SPEAKER_00]: Where does this come from?
[SPEAKER_00]: And what is it doing for him?
[SPEAKER_00]: And is it actually solving his problems?
[SPEAKER_00]: And is it answering his questions?
[SPEAKER_00]: And how is he going to come around to assessing that?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I wanted it to really reflect a deeper sort of psychological idea.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it just, it just made a lot of sense.
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, I didn't have to do as much research for this one because we are so clearly in the POV of these three characters who are not police.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't have to get into police procedural is not really even a lot of police in the book.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I got to really focus on these three characters and where they are and their minds and where they are and their process and their relationship with each other.
[SPEAKER_00]: And of course, I mean, the 1989 stuff I had to kind of look up like,
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I do remember in 1989, but specifically what technology was around and what movies were coming out and what songs were popular and stuff like that like at that in that year or what, you know, I would be like, oh, I want to use something like that because was that around yet I'd have to look it up, but other than that, I mean, I got to really focus in on these characters and and be commos little claustrophobic with these three characters and their experience.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the claustrophobia was so important.
[SPEAKER_02]: You took a so close into those POVs that it did feel claustrophobic and then there was claustrophobia of the home and their relationships, their siblings, dynamics, et cetera, so all all brilliant.
[SPEAKER_02]: There were parts of it that I
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to trigger me, but it brought back things from my own childhood, so I also experienced people standing next to my bed and staring at me and I couldn't move the tetra, etc.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think my parents did get in an exorcist and they got in a San Goma in South Africa, which is like a witch doctor to try and get all these spirits out of me.
[SPEAKER_02]: And many years later realized it was, you know,
[SPEAKER_02]: So a lot of this, I was getting on my guard.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've been there, man.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know what they feel like, but the braided narratives were so well done.
[SPEAKER_02]: So on the podcast, we talk all the time about planting curiosity seeds.
[SPEAKER_02]: You plant something that the read is like interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: Why is this character experiencing this?
[SPEAKER_02]: But the other one isn't.
[SPEAKER_02]: And why is this one experiencing this?
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we finally get to that aha moment.
[SPEAKER_02]: where we understand why each one is experiencing something different.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so it feels like a very satisfying pale, you know, as opposed to these things being over-explained upfront.
[SPEAKER_02]: So again, like for our listeners, how do you exercise that kind of control in terms of,
[SPEAKER_02]: knowing how much will make the reader curious but not frustrated and how long you can make them wet before you get them in the pale.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well the the curiosity seeds they come they are they are me as the writer I call them story questions but I in order to write a book I have story questions that when I am starting out I have not answered those story questions.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, when there's a scene in a storage unit and someone encounters a ghost and the ghost that sister sent me and you're like, who is, what does that mean?
[SPEAKER_00]: When I wrote that chapter, I didn't fully know what that meant.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I had a vague idea.
[SPEAKER_00]: So for me, the story questions make sense because there are questions that I want to answer as going through the story.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, of course, I work ahead, but I'm not a big outliner.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have very vague story points,
[SPEAKER_00]: In my mind and I have very vague sort of I'm sort of heading toward this type of climax and I think it's going to go here, so it's not like I'm totally pancing it, but I have some big ideas, but.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to know the answers and so those, that's where the questions come from, those are mine.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now as far as how long it takes to satisfy them, I do my best to figure that out as I'm writing, but whatever I don't get right, I will revise until it is right.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I will either go through the book before I turn it into my editor and go, I don't think this works and fix it myself.
[SPEAKER_00]: Or I will turn it into my editor and my editor will say, hey, you know, you could draw this out longer or that you know, you could make you could draw out all the suspense like a couple more chapters and then I go back.
[SPEAKER_00]: So my books get revised a lot between myself and my editor.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's one of the things I love.
[SPEAKER_00]: I like to emphasize whenever I'm.
[SPEAKER_00]: doing an interview that's talking to writers and spiring writers is that you are never reading my first draft, not even close.
[SPEAKER_00]: My first draft is bad.
[SPEAKER_00]: I write bad first drafts.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you as a writer have from my permission to write terrible first drafts and they require a lot of revision and revision for most of us is not fun.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's kind of a crappy boring task of the job and it's the only way to make your book better because it's not perfect when it comes out.
[SPEAKER_00]: So
[SPEAKER_00]: I do my best when I'm drafting and then whatever doesn't work, I revise until I think it works and then my editor gets it and she tells me what else I need to revise and then I do it again.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's how kind of we do it in the end is I don't get it right the first time every time.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I know for our listeners, you're going to go, but I don't have an editor, but remember, you have beta readers.
[SPEAKER_02]: You have other people who can comment on pacing and who can go, you know, I thought this could have been drawn out more texture.
[SPEAKER_02]: So all of this to say is how important it is, even though writing is solitary is to make it collaborative.
[SPEAKER_02]: Find people you trust, who's feedback you trust, because I think that's really, really important.
[SPEAKER_00]: that is important and you know, you also you have your gut.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you know, you just don't want to revise it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you'll write a chapter and you'll be like, oh, that's a good part of your brain.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's good enough.
[SPEAKER_00]: Move on.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to get to the end.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to finish this.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm thinking about submitting it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm thinking about whether I'm self-publishing it and thinking about all these other things.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like move, move, move.
[SPEAKER_00]: And like you don't really want to go back and rewrite that chapter.
[SPEAKER_00]: But there is, there's often a little part of your brain
[SPEAKER_00]: spend a little more time a couple more days.
[SPEAKER_00]: This book would be better if I went through it again and spent a couple more weeks going through it again, chapter by chapter.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you know that, you know that.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're a writer, you know that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm not going to catch everything and make it perfect.
[SPEAKER_00]: But you know that you know that there are certain parts in your work in progress that you could fix.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I know that when I submit work to my writing group, and there's a pot that I'm not really happy with, I'll be like, oh, hopefully they won't notice.
[SPEAKER_02]: And every time they's zoning on the thing that I was most insecure about.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, it's like you go, they won't notice, but like, again, trusting you got, if you feel insecure about it and you feel it's not working, other people are gonna pick up on it as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And something that you said also resonated with me is I used to love drafting, drafting used to be my favorite part of the whole process.
[SPEAKER_02]: I used to hate advising used to hate editing and now I've gone a complete opposite way.
[SPEAKER_02]: I find drafting excruciating,
[SPEAKER_02]: And once it's on the page, then I'm feel like I'm in my playground and then I'm just polishing everything up and now I love that process.
[SPEAKER_02]: So for any of our listeners who find one of the other difficult it is possible to change your outlook on it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's very true.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so something else I want to discuss is writing characters who are come across as sort of cynical and jaded and you know that they've got wounds.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know that they have had things in their past that are kind of cut them off from other people, but you can't help but love them and share them on.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're so funny as well, so I mean, this is like, okay, before I even go into this, what genre would you call this?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because to me, it's not horror.
[SPEAKER_02]: What genre do you consider it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't strictly consider it horror.
[SPEAKER_00]: Psychological horror.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, is there a, yeah, or like super natural suspense, as I think maybe one of the things that my publisher uses, it's got to be more suspense than a horror, but yeah, I mean, it's definitely a genre blend.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't write pure horror, I don't think.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think a horror writer would agree with me on that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's kind of just my own genre.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's got a lot of gothic in it.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's got a bunch of flavors trying to figure out the genre, but I mean as well to have these characters who are also funny.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean there was one scene that was so tense.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was busy biting my nails and then they've got this, you know, witty banter in between and then I'm killing myself laughing, but I'm still biting my nails.
[SPEAKER_02]: So how do you approach that?
[SPEAKER_00]: How do you get that balance?
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm glad you find it funny because I personally find the SMEs very funny.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think they're funny.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think they're hilarious.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know whether this is going to translate or everyone's going to think these people are obnoxious, but I mean, I think they're funny.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that was just part of it is the subject matter, you know, when you're talking about a child disappearing the subject matter of this book is so dark.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so part of it is I want to alleviate some of that darkness, both for myself as the writer because I got to get through it and for the reader,
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want any of my books to be just an unrelentingly dark experience.
[SPEAKER_00]: There are writers who do that and they do incredible job at it.
[SPEAKER_00]: But that is not what I'm after, that is not the experience I'm after.
[SPEAKER_00]: I always am trying to alleviate some of that darkness with a little bit of wit or a little bit of humor or I ease up instead of I don't do back to back to back dark scenes, I ease up, I do some later scenes.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's that's intentional for me because I I believe that
[SPEAKER_00]: for me is the writer and for the reader.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a little bit of a breather.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so for this though, I mean, this book so clearly like the clear central relationship is the sibling relationship.
[SPEAKER_00]: There are other relationships in the book, but the real love story and the real main thrust of the relationships story is the sibling relationship.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's these three siblings coming back together and rediscovering each other and figuring out whether who these people, who your siblings are.
[SPEAKER_00]: be kind of they can be biting and they can be a little relentless and they can be a bit idyllous and that I lean into that and it was very fun to write that dynamic and they're facing something awful and they're one of their only tools for the three of them to face this awful thing is some dark humor and so that's what they use.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's one of the only tools they've been given and that they've
[SPEAKER_00]: that they've sharpened over the years.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I just also wanted to show them using they're only tool to kind of get through this.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but that also have this vulnerability, which immediately makes you feel protective of them.
[SPEAKER_02]: So no matter how it's so big, or perhaps sometimes obnoxious, they might be, you understand that this is a protective mechanism.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I do make it pretty clear that they're really like, they're doing, they're doing and saying a lot of these things, because because their situation they're in is so stressful and so hard and so bad and
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, they're just, they're just trying their best to get through it and so they're going to insult their siblings part of it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I know.
[SPEAKER_02]: I really love the family.
[SPEAKER_02]: Before my last question, this is an example for our listeners of two inciting incidents.
[SPEAKER_02]: One that happens in the past because obviously the day that the brother goes missing is the true inciting incident.
[SPEAKER_02]: That is the
[SPEAKER_02]: But because this book is being written in like sort of present day 1989, we need another inciting incident to explain why today why now why the story keeps up.
[SPEAKER_02]: And someone just like take us through that particular inciting incident as well because you can't just have an inciting incident that happened 10 or 20 years ago and then you don't explain why the story is starting now when it does.
[SPEAKER_00]: When I was going to actually dive into the writing, I always knew that I was going to be starting with 1989, I was going to be starting with this, as you say, the second inciting incident, and it just kind of played into, you know, this happened 20 years ago, their brother disappeared inside the house.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I knew that they were going to go back to the house, and they've kept this house for 20 years, because they can't sell it, because their brother is in there somewhere, and they can't, you know, tear it down, because their brother is in there somewhere,
[SPEAKER_00]: So they've had this house just sitting empty and they don't really know what to do with it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And in the meantime, they've hired grounds keepers to keep the grounds and my insight against it is that in the first chapter is that the grounds keepers call up violet, who's the big sister, and who's been hiring them and says, and they say we have to cancel our contract.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're not coming back because my
[SPEAKER_00]: my workers keep seeing a ghost on the grounds and you have to come back and deal with this.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that was my second inciting incident and she's going to call her siblings and say, I'm not going by myself, you have to come with, we're all in this and so that just kind of flowed very naturally that they would have to go back to the house and yeah, you're right, it is two different incidents that they're going to, yeah, yeah, it is sort of constructed that way.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because, you know, we see a lot of things on the podcast that get submitted to us where the Insighting incident is completely of the page.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's some trauma that happened 20 years ago, and then it's just some average day and June and the story picks up again and you like, okay, but what is the modern day Insighting incident?
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's just really important.
[SPEAKER_02]: to make sure that you have to that answer those questions.
[SPEAKER_02]: Last question is in a book like this to maintain tension.
[SPEAKER_02]: You start your tension but then you have to escalate tension and you have to escalate
[SPEAKER_02]: steaks.
[SPEAKER_02]: The steaks have to keep getting higher.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, there's only so many times that the lights can flicker or there's a bump in the next room or somebody hears something.
[SPEAKER_02]: So again, you want to start strong, but you don't want to start so strong that you have no way to go after that.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a slow summer that goes to a boil.
[SPEAKER_02]: So again, if you can just speak a bit about that kind of pacing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and one of the ways that I do it is, I mean, I just, I am just go through a very ruthless, again, I can say I write bad first drafts, but I'm very ruthless in that every scene has to have more than one purpose, so it has to do more than one thing, so you have a scene with two people talking, two characters talking, and
[SPEAKER_00]: you have to, maybe there's some character, you learn something about one of the characters and that scenes, there's some character, exposition, or discovering that scene.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that can't be the only thing that scene does.
[SPEAKER_00]: You need a second thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: So are you learning something about the setting?
[SPEAKER_00]: Are you uping the tension?
[SPEAKER_00]: Are you doing something plot-wise?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is someone getting a phone call?
[SPEAKER_00]: Are you learning something plot-wise?
[SPEAKER_00]: So like, every scene has to have at least, has to have more, do more than one thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, if I have a scene where I just have two people talking, they're like, bloody, bloody, bloody blah, blah, blah, the scene ends.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're like, this is a dead scene.
[SPEAKER_00]: What can I put in here?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so then I'm like coming up with ways as I'm revising.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm brainstorming ideas.
[SPEAKER_00]: What else can happen in the scene that makes it more interesting, more fun?
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's learn something new that the reader didn't know before.
[SPEAKER_00]: The characters didn't know before.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe the characters are going to have an argument, and they're going to bring up something.
[SPEAKER_00]: that has been bothering both of them for all these years.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then this scene is going to come out.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, like, let's have something going.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I'm always like coming up with more than one thing that each scene can do.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it doesn't always have to be a scary thing in every scene.
[SPEAKER_00]: It does not a scary thing in every scene.
[SPEAKER_00]: But if I'm going to add in a scary thing, I'm going in and I'm uping it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm also trying to figure out where I am in the story with these characters, how they're going to react to it, and what it means to them that this particular thing is happening.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah, it's definitely a balancing act and it's something that I'm very conscious of as I'm drafting and if I don't get it right, it's something that I go back and fix as I'm repising.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and also like scary things and how characters react to them reveal so much about character.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, someone who could make a joke in the moment of terror, someone who freezes, who becomes completely paralyzed.
[SPEAKER_02]: I
[SPEAKER_02]: joke because my mother in law had five sons and yet any time something bad happened, she would just like run down the road.
[SPEAKER_02]: That was a response.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was something bad happening, you know, and that tells you something about a person.
[SPEAKER_02]: Have you ever found yourself someone combining scenes where you've written one scene in another and you just don't feel like each has enough happening until you're like, okay, I can combine them so that
[SPEAKER_02]: the scene is doing more than one particular thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Or are you able to take a scene and really just get enough meat in it?
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm combining I have done it's pretty rare.
[SPEAKER_00]: If I ever seen that really isn't working, I just cut it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's gone.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's gone forever.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't even have.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't even have like a little file where I copy it and I piece it into.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe I'll use this someday.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't need.
[SPEAKER_00]: If it doesn't work,
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm never using it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's got to be gone.
[SPEAKER_00]: Something that doesn't work or got to be gone.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I do, I mean, I will try and fix it or combine it or do what I can or maybe salvage it.
[SPEAKER_00]: But if I can't salvage it, I just hit delete.
[SPEAKER_00]: I cut the whole thing and I start, I started the whole difference scene.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe I'm like, I got it.
[SPEAKER_00]: This didn't work.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's change POV.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's change setting.
[SPEAKER_00]: What's happening?
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's just start and then like go forward from there.
[SPEAKER_00]: So cutting is more often what I do.
[SPEAKER_00]: If something is not working, just delete.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know, writers find that completely crazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're like, you know, just delete.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, oh, yeah, I do.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just love it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I do the into nowhere it's gone.
[SPEAKER_02]: Fascinating to buy it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, Simone, I could have chatted to you for another few hours, but at time is up.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us for our listeners, who's not watching on YouTube.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm holding up the book again.
[SPEAKER_02]: A box full of darkness.
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll link to it on our bookshop.org affiliate page.
[SPEAKER_02]: Get the book there.
[SPEAKER_02]: You support an independent bookstore and the podcast at the same time.
[SPEAKER_02]: And after you've read this, go back, read the sundown.
[SPEAKER_02]: I tell you can love it as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for having me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much.
[SPEAKER_02]: Today's guest is originally from New England.
[SPEAKER_02]: She now lives and works in Washington, D.C. She has an MA in English literature from George Washington University, when she's not imagining ways to make reality TV even more dramatic, she can be found reading, doing dance fitness and painting other people's dogs, so definitely someone after my own heart.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's my pleasure to welcome Isabelle Engel.
[SPEAKER_02]: Isabelle, welcome to the show!
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for having me.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's really a thrill to be here.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's wonderful to have you here and I'll tell our guests more about you shortly.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just want to read the flap copy of the books or everyone has context.
[SPEAKER_02]: For those of you not watching on YouTube, I'm holding up the books cover.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's called most illegible and it was such a fun read.
[SPEAKER_02]: Honestly, such a fun read.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've
[SPEAKER_02]: Even though this isn't generally my genre and it was just like pages flying absolutely loved it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we will link to it on a bookshop.org affiliate page, but let me read you the flap copy.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then Israel has such an interesting journey to publication, which I'd like us to focus on as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: So.
[SPEAKER_02]: Georgia Rose is not going on the hit reality dating show Love Shack to find love.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's there to write a killer expose on the producers which will guarantee the journalism job of her dreams.
[SPEAKER_02]: But when Georgia's unforgettable one night stand from the year before, country singer-rette Auburn steps into the Malibu mansion, as the season's new host, all of her
[SPEAKER_02]: caught up in the drama of Backstabbing Contestance, Producer Blackmail, and Death Defying Dates.
[SPEAKER_02]: Georgia must keep her identity, and history was raped a secret.
[SPEAKER_02]: Despite the lies between them, it is a long before Georgia and rates heated behind the scene moments, start to feel more genuine than the romance Georgia's faking for the cameras.
[SPEAKER_02]: But with her assignments unfinished, an executive producer on her tale, a second chance
[SPEAKER_02]: So, love it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, it's about we discussed one of your critiques on books with hoax back in 2023.
[SPEAKER_02]: Is that right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that is correct.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was such an exciting moment for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was a previous novel that I wrote.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, that was the book that I worked as working on before most eligible.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I, you know, wrote it, edited it, wrote the query and everything and submitted it to books with hoax.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that was kind of the first
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that I got was having it on the show, which was really exciting, and I got some wonderful feedback and did query that book, but then ultimately shelved it in later that year.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, was there any specific books with hooks that helped realign your thinking with that manuscript or that helped teach you for the next book?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, so many things.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I remember specifically that Carly or CC mentioned that
[SPEAKER_01]: this sort of lack of conflict in the in the book and it was something that I think was evident even just from the query that there wasn't enough keeping the characters apart because it was a romance so you know why can't they just get together right at the beginning of the book and so that was really important as I went on to revise the book further I was thinking about how to amp up the tension and the conflict and then for the next book which was most eligible
[SPEAKER_01]: there's a lot of conflict in most eligible.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of tension and that was something that was different about that book right away.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just because of the premise and the plot and it was something that I it was very fulfilling to know that I was kind of working on my craft in that way and thinking about the stakes and the tension and everything right from the start.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I love that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, I mean, most eligible was, I think you said, after four books and over a hundred query rejections, you finally signed with your agent and then you got a two book deal with St. Martin's Griffin.
[SPEAKER_02]: So please take us through that entire journey because again, I know so many of our listeners are struggling.
[SPEAKER_02]: So many of them have written book off the book and feeling kind of desolate and hopeless and are like, is a time to quit and I know that you had that moment as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: So please take us through all of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I will say, you know, I was and still am a regular listener.
[SPEAKER_01]: So this podcast is such a great resource and community for writers at all stages.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I guess we can
[SPEAKER_01]: rewind back pretty far in high school when I was a senior in high school.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wrote a book that I did revise, pretty significantly.
[SPEAKER_01]: I worked on it for a really long time, sitting in the stacks of my high school library on the floor at lunchtime.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I thought, okay, I really want to try to publish this book.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know that much about the publishing world, you know, I was in 17 or 18, but I
[SPEAKER_01]: I just sort of figured it out and then I was actually looking back through and I was like okay I did you know a decent job at putting together a query and finding agents to send it to.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I sent that book to several dozen agents query it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I didn't I don't think I can correctly label it as to which on right was I don't think that the query was particularly good or anything, but I was learning and that one of course did not go anywhere.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't get any requests or anything like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I wasn't that distraught about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I was just very proud of myself for putting it out there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then in college, I did continue writing, but I was not writing anything kind of booklink that that time was focusing on other things.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then after college, and a few years after that, when I was starting my master's program, I had just moved to a new place.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was just kind of looking for an outlet, and I started writing more seriously again.
[SPEAKER_01]: one book which I query it to maybe like six or seven people and then kind of, I don't want to say gave up on it, but I was like, okay, this one is not the book for right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I enjoyed writing it, but I decided to side pretty quickly.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I wrote the manuscript that was critique done books with hooks or the query was anyway.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that one was a little bit of a turning point, I think,
[SPEAKER_01]: sending my work to agents, and I had the experience of going through revision processes, but I had never gotten anything back.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like no, it was kind of like all my emails, you know, we're going out into the void, and then all of a sudden, you know, I was monboxed with hooks, which was really exciting, and I did get a few full requests.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it kind of, it was a bit of a confidence boost, even if the book didn't ultimately go anywhere, although I would, I would love to revisit it someday.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that was in 2022 or 2023.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then while I was clearing that book, you know, I queried so many agents.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, how many specifically, probably 80 to 100 or something.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I got some positive feedback.
[SPEAKER_01]: People said that they liked the writing.
[SPEAKER_01]: They liked the beginning, but then the rest of the book it was there wasn't really enough going on.
[SPEAKER_01]: There wasn't really a plot if I'm being totally honest.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I had a moment, like you said,
[SPEAKER_01]: I could just give up, like there's nobody standing over me telling me to do this.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's really just me and I want to make this happen and keep trying, which I think is an important moment to go through when you realize that you're the one driving your journey forward.
[SPEAKER_01]: No matter how many amazing and supportive people there are around you and your community and you're the one driving it forward.
[SPEAKER_01]: what would become most eligible.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I wanted it to be very different.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it wasn't like sort of an intentional decision.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just kind of went into it and did whatever I wanted and just really had fun writing it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I felt like, okay, it was more me.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was funnier, it was just kind of fun, but also had a deeper undercurrent a little bit.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I guess to get back to the publication side of things,
[SPEAKER_01]: I submitted that to the Smoosh Pit Mentorship Program, which is a wonderful program that matches aspiring romance authors with published or agent to the authors.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was lucky enough to be selected for that program and through that did a lot of revisions on the book and the showcase for that program, the agent showcase is ultimately how I did connect with my now agent.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it was a little bit of a whirlwind like that all felt like it went very quickly, but there was a lot of I, you know, the book was by the time I was clearing it was completely unrecognizable from the first draft.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, that is the thing is that it has to constantly be evolving and I think so many writers just want to draft once and send it off and if they get knows and they start drafting a new book and send it off and honestly a book comes alive in the constant rewriting in the fact that you said that it was unrecognizable at the end from how it was in the beginning just speaks to how much work goes in to constantly revising.
[SPEAKER_02]: So for our listeners who are interested in switch pits is it's still running how many pages did you have to submit?
[SPEAKER_02]: What did that process look like?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I know a lot of them are going to be like, ask about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's a such a great program.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I can't say enough good things about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it is still running.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they're currently in a cycle of mentors working with mentees right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: really exciting.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm in another fun full circle moment.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I believe September is when the applications are usually due.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if your romance author, when you're interested, look out for that around August or September.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you submit your query letter synopsis and I believe the first five or ten pages.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's kind of like a query package.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think if you're applying to a mentorship
[SPEAKER_01]: It's important to remember that it's not querying.
[SPEAKER_01]: A yearbook doesn't have to be perfect.
[SPEAKER_01]: And in fact, if your book is too perfect, then there's, you know, maybe not enough to work on in the program.
[SPEAKER_01]: So just remember that the mentors reading your work will be really excited about the potential of your book and about working with you and not just about like receiving a final product because that's not, that's not really what they're looking for.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's a great program.
[SPEAKER_02]: And how long does it take from when you get selected to win the final showcases?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I assume you're all working towards a deadline.
[SPEAKER_02]: So the mentor is like, these are the things you need to fix.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is what you need to work on.
[SPEAKER_02]: What is that process look like?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when I did it, I believe that the selections were in October.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the showcase was in February around Valentine's Day.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it was a pretty quick turnaround.
[SPEAKER_01]: This year, they've extended it a little bit so that the showcase is in March,
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's, yeah, it's about like four or five months.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it kind of depends on the book and the project.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm as to how much you're going to work on it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I did quite a lot of revisions of various levels.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it was, it was definitely a lot of work hearing that time, but it was really awesome to have a mentor to be going through that with.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the deadline, I think, was also helpful because it was good to have a timeline to work towards,
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and hats off to you for being prepared to work on it so much because, you know, a lot of writers will say they just want feedback.
[SPEAKER_02]: But when they get feedback, they will explain why you are wrong and why you misunderstood their work.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so they're not really as in time to go, okay, I really do want this feedback and I really am going to use this feedback.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, heads off to you for doing that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Then once your agent sold it and you got the two book deal, how many edits needed to be done again?
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, how many edits were done with your agent before ordering to the publisher and then how many edits after that again?
[SPEAKER_01]: Quite a few, I would say, so the book itself kind of the shape of the book, like the bones of the book, didn't really change, but with my agent, we did change the ending of the book, which was both
[SPEAKER_01]: a big deal and also not that consequential in a certain way, because everything leading up to that was kind of the same and it had like the same emotional resonance in the end, but we just changed a few kind of logistical things and then we did some line editing and in the book there's also these little interstitials before each chapter and when I was querying I only had those on a few chapters and my agent said, oh, let's put these on every single chapter that would be really fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that was another kind of big change we put those on every chapter, and then when I signed with that my editor at St. Martin's Griffin, we did, I think, two rounds of larger kind of developmental edits.
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, like the bones of the book didn't change, but it was really about fleshing out a lot of things.
[SPEAKER_01]: So fleshing out the side characters, which are probably one of my favorite parts of the
[SPEAKER_01]: we have this really kind of larger than life cast of delightful side characters.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I was all in on developing them even more.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we also added a little bit more on the romance, we added a little bit more on our main characters, kind of past emotional wounds, which was very helpful, I think in the end.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then we did another round of developmental edits, kind of refining those things,
[SPEAKER_01]: several rounds of line edits and then copy edits and then and things like that after.
[SPEAKER_01]: But those were like the main kind of bigger edits.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's interesting to me that your previous feedback was that your novels were too quiet because this is not a quiet novel by any means and I imagine a lot of research had to go into this because, you know, for me, I have always been like a big survivor fan, for example, and I, I don't, I don't much the romance reality TV stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've never watched the bachelor or anything like that, but
[SPEAKER_02]: what I've always wanted to watch is a behind-the-scenes of survivor.
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to see a documentary of how it's filmed, etc.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so you give us so much of that in terms of this book.
[SPEAKER_02]: So how much research went into that?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because as a viewer, you can watch a reality show multiple times that doesn't mean you know what happens behind the scenes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that is such a great question.
[SPEAKER_01]: And
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I think that this is not a quiet book, it's kind of loud, it's it's a little bit over the top in a way that was really fun to write and you are right that a lot of research did go into this book and it was really fun to do that research so I'm sad to say that I did not go undercover on reality TV in order to learn what it's like, but I did do a lot of research so I am a fan of the bachelor and for listeners the bachelor is kind of the touchstone for the book
[SPEAKER_01]: the what it's loosely based on but it's a fictionalized version of course.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm a bachelor fan, I'm a fan of other reality shows, but I'm not like a die hard watch every episode viewer.
[SPEAKER_01]: I like to kind of drop in once every few seasons, you know, get my fill and then and then dip back out for a few seasons.
[SPEAKER_01]: And in terms of the research, I listened to a ton of podcasts with former contestants.
[SPEAKER_01]: My read several books about the bachelor as well as memoirs of previous contestants.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I also was lucky enough to get to speak to a few former contestants, which was really cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was not expecting anyone to reply to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because at the time, I didn't feel like I had the,
[SPEAKER_01]: kind of external validation in order like to be able to amuse these people because I was not agent and I was you know writing but a few people did respond and it was just so kind of them to take the time to speak to me and one of the one of the most fun things I learned I think because I had kind of thought oh it's probably all you know scripted planned ahead of time.
[SPEAKER_01]: And partially, I think that's true, but one of the contestants who I spoke to, who had been on the Bachelor at said that the first time he saw the lead was filmed and, you know, it's when he walked up to the mansion, which I guess I had just assumed that it was all a little bit more fake than that, but it was cool to know that that is actually at least partially real.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the research was very fun and I had a really, a really great time doing that and like learning
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, through kind of the viewers perspective like watching things how is disappearing on TV, but also from the behind the scenes perspective as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and it just added that specificity.
[SPEAKER_02]: TCC's always talking on the podcast about specificity, specificity, and, you know, there were things that I was going, oh my goodness, like here you're trying to have an authentic natural reaction, for example, to seeing somebody when you arrive in suddenly, a producer tells you stop, go back, and look more enthused or look this way or that way.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then you've got to recheck your initial reaction and I would be like, oh my God, I would hate that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Me too.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it was it was really fascinating, but I also love that you reached out to people and some of them replied because I think I would be the same.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'd be like, Oh, they're never going to reply what's the point.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I mean, I guess the worst that can happen is you hear silence or somebody says not.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it was I think an eye opening moment and also really lovely to just hear people being excited about the work that I was doing because the
[SPEAKER_01]: Boy, no one precise spoke to on the phone.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was ready to kind of jump right in with my questions.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't want to take up too much of his day.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he was like, first of all, let me just say, how awesome that you're writing a book.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's so cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have so much respect for that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was a really cool moment for me to step back and realize that myself.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he was excited to hear about the premise of the book.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he said, that's probably totally realistic.
[SPEAKER_01]: So a contestant could actually absolutely have this kind of secret romance, which was a fun little tidbit to hear as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I love that.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's that's amazing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I mean, you've got a book within a book here as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you've got these sort of interstitials and you've got quotes from the circle book, checking up the definitive and authorised guide to winning Love Shack.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I loved each of those quotes at the beginning to kind of set us up for the chapters.
[SPEAKER_02]: So was it that you wrote each of those quotes from the book as you needed them or did you sit first and work on that part of the book and then work on the rest of the book, how did that evolve?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so those are very, very loosely based on a real book which is called How to Win the Bachelorette.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think the quotes in my book are a little bit more provocative and like probably wouldn't want the actual bachelor producers to read them versus the real life book, but it was a bit of a mix of both so I had a little document going where if I had an idea for something like that, I would kind of put it down in the document, but not really think about where exactly it would go within the book, but then if there was a scene where I thought, oh, I would love to
[SPEAKER_01]: have this particular quote or moment I would kind of put it there while I was drafting, but then when it came down to, you know, making the final decisions about where each of these little quotes would go, I really wanted them to have a connection to the chapter that they were going in front of, not spoilers per se, but to something that kind of hints at the drama that's about to happen.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if it's, you know, if
[SPEAKER_01]: they're going on a group date where all the contestants are fighting for the lead.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then I think the quote for that chapter is something like very dramatic like only one can survive or something like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's just some like a little connection to kind of get you excited to read the chapter.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and it's a hugely ambitious book as well because you have video transcripts in between, you know, there's there's a lot going on.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that was when I realized because, you know, I like to go into a book blind.
[SPEAKER_02]: told you how to write this book, along with your main tools and everybody else.
[SPEAKER_02]: So nothing along the way is wasted.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, did it feel hugely ambitious to you tackling all of this?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And also very fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think a lot of the things like the kind of extra content that's not in the main narrative, those were things that I was kind of like writing alongside just kind of having fun with it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought an entertaining way to get in other perspectives because through the book, we are in George's head.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a single POV novel.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it was, you know, you get like a tiny little snippet of the love interest's perspective or some of the other contestants.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, yes, it was definitely a little bit intimidating to go into that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think it makes the book more of an experience
[SPEAKER_01]: hopefully feeling like you are getting like the best and most juicy and dramatic parts of watching a reality show.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think, yeah, it was fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was ambitious.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was intimidating, but ultimately it was, it was worth it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love how you gave us a few antagonists.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, often in romance, you go, okay, the antagonist is, I don't know, somebody else who's vying for their person's attention.
[SPEAKER_02]: Here we have some contestants who are pretty awful.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love that there were other contestants who were lovely, you know, you showed female friendship and female competition and how women can be
[SPEAKER_02]: Supports of all of each other and also how women can tear each other down.
[SPEAKER_02]: So there were some contestants that I was like, we need to get rid of you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I do not like you.
[SPEAKER_02]: We need you out of here now.
[SPEAKER_02]: But then also we had the producer as an antagonist as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't think I've really thought about romance as needing quite so many antagonists.
[SPEAKER_02]: But it does.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this worked so well.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that was, that is also another one of my favorite parts of the book.
[SPEAKER_01]: is something that makes it a little bit different than some other romance novels that I've read.
[SPEAKER_01]: And something that I was a little bit nervous about when I was writing and querying, because I was like, is this romance?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it is, but there's also moments in it where she's pretending to be in love with someone else.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's like other plot things going on, and I wasn't totally sure if romance readers would respond to that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't really look at the early reviews, but I think people have responded to it really well.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm also, you know, so honor that you mentioned the female friendship aspect because that was super important to me to include that in the book, because I just, I think it's really important to show women's supporting each other, especially in an environment where they could be pitted against each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: And an environment where there's all these antagonists, whether they're real or imagined.
[SPEAKER_01]: developed a lot in edits with my editor at St. Martin's.
[SPEAKER_01]: She said, make the producer worse, like make her more evil.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I did.
[SPEAKER_01]: So she's more evil now than she was before.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that was that was fun and interesting because I thought she was pretty bad before.
[SPEAKER_01]: but she's potentially worse now.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, she was terrifying.
[SPEAKER_02]: She was terrifying.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I could see her head so much fun with it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And also like the humor and the voice of the character was, it was so funny.
[SPEAKER_02]: There was so many delightful sort of laugh-out loud moments as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: So do you feel like those last books help you develop your voice?
[SPEAKER_02]: Lean into that humor more because I really believe in playing to our strengths and sometimes people feel like okay Well, I'm gonna write something more serious or whatever for whatever reason, but like you're clearly a funny Woody delightful person.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'd love to have you at a dinner party.
[SPEAKER_02]: It comes across in the books So was that something you leaned into?
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's very sweet.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that I lean into that more in writing than in real life But I try to be a good guest.
[SPEAKER_01]: I promise
[SPEAKER_01]: definitely helps me develop my voice.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it feels kind of funny to say my voice now.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I can feel a little bit of imposter syndrome sneaking in.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think previous books too were a little bit more mirrored on things that I had read, not just parallels of other books already out there.
[SPEAKER_01]: But like, I had authors that I really admired and liked.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was kind of trying to emulate their voice in style.
[SPEAKER_01]: a fantastic practice and, you know, of course you want to be learning from other authors, but in this book I think I went and I sort of wrote and I did things and I developed my voice in a way that I don't know that I had specifically read something super similar and I'm sure that it is out there.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's just so many books in the world.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think I really felt like I found my groove writing this book and being able to kind of just go with the funny moments
[SPEAKER_01]: trust my instincts and my voice because I felt like I really knew what the book was and I wanted to stay true to that.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I love all those insights.
[SPEAKER_02]: Those are all incredible.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I mean, we're at the end of our time, which is really, really sad.
[SPEAKER_02]: So for those of you who are not watching on YouTube, I am holding up most eligible.
[SPEAKER_02]: Isabel Engel.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to link to it on a bookshop.org affiliate page.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just remember what I wanted to say as well is that when you said emulating other writers, you know, for those of you who don't read our sub-stack, we actually have a brilliant article, just probably a few weeks back of somebody who said that they learned to develop their voice by emulating other writers' voices and learning the sense and structure and the style and the cadence etc.
[SPEAKER_02]: and then finally through emulating they were able to distinguish their own voice.
[SPEAKER_02]: So what you've said aligns with
[SPEAKER_02]: what they said as well, which was a really, really good article as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: So for those of you who don't listen, who don't read the subject, go back and find that article.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's about we wishing you so much luck with this book.
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll be here cheering you on and good luck with the next one.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for having me Bianca.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's it for today's episode.
[SPEAKER_02]: I hope you'll join us for next week's show.
[SPEAKER_02]: In the meantime, keep at it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Remember, it just takes one yes.