WEBVTT 00:02.377 --> 00:05.561 [SPEAKER_00]: Hey friends, welcome back to the Christian parenting podcast. 00:05.581 --> 00:16.356 [SPEAKER_00]: I am excited about today's episode because we are diving into a topic that a lot of parents feel unsure about, sometimes overwhelmed by and often just avoid altogether, and that is talking to our kids about money. 00:16.837 --> 00:24.047 [SPEAKER_00]: My guest today is Steven Day, he is a professor, a former teacher, and a dad of four, and he's the author of Teach A Kid to Save. 00:24.027 --> 00:30.007 [SPEAKER_00]: So his work focuses on helping families build healthy, practical, money habits and kids starting at a young age. 00:30.448 --> 00:36.147 [SPEAKER_00]: So if the idea of teaching your kids about finances feels intimidating, or if you've ever wondered whether allowance is work. 00:36.481 --> 00:43.312 [SPEAKER_00]: whether it could be paid for chores, or how to help your kids understand the value of hard work without turning money into a power struggle. 00:44.053 --> 00:45.155 [SPEAKER_00]: This conversation is for you. 00:45.455 --> 00:48.260 [SPEAKER_00]: Steven shares a really creative and doable framework. 00:48.280 --> 00:50.723 [SPEAKER_00]: He calls a mini economy that families can try at home. 00:51.144 --> 00:55.611 [SPEAKER_00]: It's hands on, values based, and focused more on habits than pet knowledge. 00:56.252 --> 01:01.240 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's gonna give you some really fresh ideas in a lot of encouragement, so I hope they even enjoy. 01:07.632 --> 01:08.233 [SPEAKER_00]: Hi, Stephen. 01:08.293 --> 01:09.836 [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the Christian parenting podcast. 01:09.856 --> 01:10.558 [SPEAKER_01]: Hi, there's Stephanie. 01:10.578 --> 01:11.460 [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for having me. 01:11.480 --> 01:14.125 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think this is going to be a great conversation. 01:14.165 --> 01:16.530 [SPEAKER_00]: Super practical and helpful for families. 01:16.570 --> 01:19.095 [SPEAKER_00]: So really excited to get into it. 01:19.235 --> 01:23.183 [SPEAKER_00]: But before we do, I want to talk a little bit about you and introduce yourself. 01:23.203 --> 01:26.670 [SPEAKER_00]: So tell us who you are, what you do and tell us what your family do. 01:26.650 --> 01:33.080 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm Stephen Day and I'm a professor in the Business School of Virginia Commonwealth University. 01:33.461 --> 01:42.295 [SPEAKER_01]: I work with the Virginia Council on Economic Education to train K through 12 teachers in how to teach economics and personal finance in classrooms. 01:42.676 --> 01:50.008 [SPEAKER_01]: That's my background, I was a high school teacher, but now I teach undergraduates and grad students in addition to doing my work here at 01:49.988 --> 01:52.773 [SPEAKER_01]: VC and I have a wife named Sarah. 01:52.934 --> 01:53.895 [SPEAKER_01]: I have four children. 01:53.935 --> 02:09.124 [SPEAKER_01]: Their ages 13, 11, 9, and turning 7 next week as she is constantly reminding us and we live in Virginia and we love it here. 02:09.144 --> 02:10.326 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a great little community. 02:10.306 --> 02:11.187 [SPEAKER_00]: that's amazing. 02:11.207 --> 02:15.933 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, we are talking about, I mean, economics is not something that we talk a ton about. 02:16.814 --> 02:18.015 [SPEAKER_00]: There's a parenting podcast. 02:18.536 --> 02:20.037 [SPEAKER_00]: But I'm really excited about it too. 02:20.638 --> 02:24.543 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we're talking about teaching kids good financial habits. 02:24.563 --> 02:27.366 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's just such an important conversation. 02:27.546 --> 02:30.730 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's really hard conversation because I think parents get really overwhelmed by it. 02:31.090 --> 02:36.176 [SPEAKER_00]: For a variety of reasons, it might make people feel uncomfortable just to talk about finances. 02:36.236 --> 02:40.161 [SPEAKER_00]: I think a lot of us are like trained not to talk about it, 02:40.141 --> 02:41.303 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, figured out as we go. 02:41.343 --> 02:42.926 [SPEAKER_00]: So what do you think? 02:43.327 --> 02:45.110 [SPEAKER_00]: I guess I want to start with that a little bit. 02:45.130 --> 02:54.486 [SPEAKER_00]: Like what do you think there are some misconceptions are that parents have or like struggles parents have when it comes to just getting into it and teaching their kids about money. 02:54.727 --> 03:05.085 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, misconceptions are that it's a private thing that adults should talk about the not kids or that even the adults shouldn't talk about just shouldn't be talked about is that private. 03:05.065 --> 03:12.936 [SPEAKER_01]: a misconception is that kids need to wait till they're older to learn about money and another misconception is that you can't do it. 03:13.597 --> 03:16.501 [SPEAKER_01]: You don't have the tools to teach your kids about money, but you do. 03:16.701 --> 03:25.634 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think the barriers that parents face, I mean, there are some that, for example, parents earn much more money than children do. 03:25.814 --> 03:34.887 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, even if children have a job and an allowance, they earn, you know, a couple dollars a week, but my kids do not understand how I earn 03:34.867 --> 03:43.537 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and then that's baffling, especially when after I've earned the several thousand dollars, I tell them that we can't afford this ice cream for whatever. 03:43.658 --> 03:45.920 [SPEAKER_01]: I just don't think that rings authentic to them. 03:46.181 --> 03:55.372 [SPEAKER_01]: But also, some parents have been brought up when they were kids, think that money is a very private thing that we don't talk about in the family. 03:56.433 --> 04:03.321 [SPEAKER_01]: And then you know, I think another barrier is just that a lot of parents are kind of ashamed about our finances, you know? 04:03.301 --> 04:10.035 [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of so many grown-ups are under financial stress, and we teach most things to our kids by modeling. 04:10.176 --> 04:15.808 [SPEAKER_01]: You think of all the things that we model, we model, prayer, manners, going to work in school. 04:16.189 --> 04:21.580 [SPEAKER_01]: But if you have no confidence about your own financial habits, how are you going to model that to your kids? 04:21.560 --> 04:27.328 [SPEAKER_01]: So elementary grades are when kids learn habits, norms, and rules of thumb. 04:27.689 --> 04:31.554 [SPEAKER_01]: And so this is when they should develop those things when it, as regards money. 04:31.675 --> 04:34.519 [SPEAKER_01]: They don't need a lot of head knowledge, but they do need habits. 04:34.819 --> 04:40.828 [SPEAKER_01]: So what parents need is just an easy on ramp to start putting kids in the situation where they can get these habits. 04:41.008 --> 04:42.370 [SPEAKER_01]: That's what kids need at this age. 04:42.350 --> 04:42.711 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 04:43.191 --> 04:44.333 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's really interesting. 04:44.373 --> 04:51.004 [SPEAKER_00]: The idea of habits versus knowledge, I think is really interesting and kind of what you're saying before, because kids just don't have a concept of money. 04:51.344 --> 04:58.536 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, we moved a few years ago and our kids were like, I bet our house cost at least $1,000. 04:58.516 --> 05:06.127 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, at least house is cost at least fat, but they just do it a lot of phrase at least is doing well. 05:06.828 --> 05:26.076 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, but I'm like they don't have a concept of money and just like you're talking about foreign how much Things actually cost and those are really big numbers to them in the real world and so that is just Clearly going to be over their heads a little bit because how can they comprehend that when they're getting a couple dollars a week like you said so you introduce this idea 05:26.056 --> 05:30.043 [SPEAKER_00]: instead of just talking about all the time this idea like a household mini economy. 05:30.243 --> 05:37.936 [SPEAKER_00]: So tell us like what that is and how it's different than kind of like the traditional allowance and what a lot of families typically do. 05:38.116 --> 05:38.397 [SPEAKER_01]: Right. 05:38.597 --> 05:42.283 [SPEAKER_01]: So a mini economy, many families have done something like this in the past. 05:42.383 --> 05:44.487 [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't just make it up off the top of my head. 05:44.551 --> 05:45.873 [SPEAKER_01]: But a mini economy is just that. 05:45.893 --> 05:54.085 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a small economy where kids have jobs or chores and they get paid and play money and then they shop at the household store. 05:54.105 --> 05:56.508 [SPEAKER_01]: And so very, very simple to start off with. 05:56.548 --> 06:06.503 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, if you do start a mini economy this weekend or if you get my book and see how to do it, you have a sign jobs, preferable jobs that have skills that the kids need to learn. 06:06.903 --> 06:12.972 [SPEAKER_01]: And then when they get money, that's when you practice your, what our family does when we get money, habits. 06:12.952 --> 06:28.817 [SPEAKER_01]: we give first to we have our tides jar first we share we donate next we say we start saving towards our saving goals then we spend you can spend on small things you buy at the dollar store but also privileges once we have a lot of coupons that we sell 06:28.797 --> 06:44.676 [SPEAKER_01]: So if you can have a coupon for extra screen time, or a coupon for roasting marshmallows in the backyard, pretty much a coupon for anything that pairs often say no to, but sometimes say yes to and kind of meet a better way to decide rather than just your mood or your service. 06:44.696 --> 06:45.517 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it is. 06:45.537 --> 06:50.603 [SPEAKER_01]: And that provides the kids and opportunity to decide how much is that privilege worth to them? 06:50.583 --> 07:09.975 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's when it's free the only cost to them is to bug you and they'll just keep on bugging you until you say yeah, so it's no skin off there I just do it, but if they have a coupon and they have to plan ahead of time my work my spent my saving my coupon now do I want to use this coupon 07:09.955 --> 07:13.438 [SPEAKER_01]: it provides a value when they actually make the choice. 07:13.779 --> 07:17.682 [SPEAKER_01]: So, a mini economy at its most basic is just that very basic. 07:18.063 --> 07:24.288 [SPEAKER_01]: You can also just do it for a couple of weeks, just as a little summer project that's going to take over your life. 07:24.609 --> 07:26.450 [SPEAKER_01]: But it can be more elaborate. 07:26.510 --> 07:29.894 [SPEAKER_01]: For example, our mini economy and our house, the kids have businesses. 07:30.274 --> 07:32.616 [SPEAKER_01]: We have our 13 year old as the writer. 07:32.996 --> 07:36.840 [SPEAKER_01]: She has made a self-published book which she sells, 07:37.090 --> 07:54.416 [SPEAKER_01]: My 11 year old makes a cardboard figures and he's just very good with crafty things, but she sells My nine year old sells, he makes coffee, he brews coffee in the morning for the parents, so that we don't have, so right when we wake up, we just have coffee, and he drives a hard bargain with prices. 07:54.856 --> 08:06.253 [SPEAKER_01]: He's really learned how to stand up for himself, and our seven year old as a Christmas tree watering business, and I'm working with her on her next business that she can do as well. 08:06.790 --> 08:07.531 [SPEAKER_01]: But you know what happens? 08:07.551 --> 08:10.415 [SPEAKER_01]: You know what though, the parents have jobs in a mini economy too. 08:10.796 --> 08:11.436 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's true. 08:11.457 --> 08:16.003 [SPEAKER_01]: And in a normal, loud system, the kids have the jobs. 08:16.423 --> 08:22.552 [SPEAKER_01]: And do you say, this is your job, this is your allowance, and you go off and do, in a mini economy, everyone gets paid in play money. 08:22.652 --> 08:28.781 [SPEAKER_01]: And that takes away this problem of the iron, this thousand dollars, you know, thousands of dollars and more kids don't. 08:29.061 --> 08:31.144 [SPEAKER_01]: Now all of a sudden we're playing on a level playing field. 08:31.124 --> 08:39.539 [SPEAKER_01]: And my choices are on the same scale as their choices and if they have businesses when they deals together, then the kids really see the value of things over time. 08:39.799 --> 08:46.030 [SPEAKER_01]: So it helps overcome a lot of these hurdles, including the hurdle that money is this private thing that we don't talk about. 08:46.371 --> 08:46.591 [SPEAKER_01]: Right? 08:46.651 --> 08:51.881 [SPEAKER_01]: If it's play money, then people who really have have a real hang-ups about money can still do it. 08:52.061 --> 08:56.068 [SPEAKER_01]: They can still model the habits that they 08:56.048 --> 08:56.328 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 08:56.769 --> 08:57.049 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 08:57.130 --> 08:58.732 [SPEAKER_00]: So tell me if I have this right. 08:59.092 --> 09:00.454 [SPEAKER_00]: So I can walk people through this. 09:00.474 --> 09:08.585 [SPEAKER_00]: So you and your mini economy in your house, your kids have like chores and things that they can do to make their to earn their play money. 09:09.026 --> 09:15.475 [SPEAKER_00]: And then they also have started their businesses, which is so cute and like I love the idea of them bringing you coffee like that's precious. 09:15.455 --> 09:17.178 [SPEAKER_00]: that's so cute and creative. 09:17.218 --> 09:20.724 [SPEAKER_00]: So I like that that's just like taking it to an next level that's so fun. 09:21.145 --> 09:34.088 [SPEAKER_00]: And then they get their coupons or they're play money and then they cash their money in after they write so then they save they give it and then they save it and then they have their spending money then they can go spend on coupons and things. 09:34.068 --> 09:40.680 [SPEAKER_01]: When they get paid, they do, I have, I found no way to improve upon the classic chair, say, spend. 09:41.080 --> 09:48.714 [SPEAKER_01]: Actually, it's usually saved, spend share, but I moved the share to the front, because we should give the first fruits of what we earn to the war. 09:48.734 --> 09:51.499 [SPEAKER_01]: So, stuff goes to the tied jar first. 09:51.519 --> 09:57.730 [SPEAKER_01]: But when they earn money, that's when you can work with them on one's basically budgeting, which is putting stuff into different jars. 09:57.710 --> 10:00.415 [SPEAKER_01]: And people already do that a lot, people should still do that. 10:00.475 --> 10:02.579 [SPEAKER_01]: That's classic, it works, do it. 10:02.819 --> 10:19.971 [SPEAKER_01]: I think the difference though is that when everyone in the family is earning the same play money and you're doing the work at the same time, and even the adults are doing it too, and you're all buying stuff together in the store right after you work, it makes the whole experience a lot more vivid for the kids. 10:19.951 --> 10:25.820 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not just the money kind of goes to their pocket and from there it's the first opportunity when they're in Target. 10:25.860 --> 10:29.005 [SPEAKER_01]: It goes straight to the toy aisle and it gets burned up. 10:29.346 --> 10:38.379 [SPEAKER_01]: No, it provides a lot more of a community or I should say family based idea of how we spend money or how we use money when we get it. 10:38.660 --> 10:41.184 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's an opportunity to model money habits. 10:41.825 --> 10:45.370 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, in a way that they can actually understand and set up that very tangible. 10:45.410 --> 10:47.173 [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to pay 10:47.558 --> 10:50.643 [SPEAKER_01]: What does that have a small, even very small kids can do it too? 10:50.663 --> 10:50.904 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 10:51.285 --> 10:56.434 [SPEAKER_00]: So there are two things that I think of that are kind of like conflicts that my family has experienced. 10:56.454 --> 10:57.676 [SPEAKER_00]: And I feel like a lot of families do. 10:57.776 --> 11:05.770 [SPEAKER_00]: And that is one, like, should kids be paid for chores, like, is that even something that we should be doing or should they just be expected to because they're part of the family? 11:05.810 --> 11:08.815 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, so how does, I guess you'll let's just start there. 11:08.895 --> 11:12.081 [SPEAKER_00]: So how does this kind of many economy help with that issue? 11:12.061 --> 11:13.544 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's a great question. 11:13.584 --> 11:15.287 [SPEAKER_01]: Then that's the classic question. 11:15.327 --> 11:18.073 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, people have been arguing about this forever. 11:18.433 --> 11:27.150 [SPEAKER_01]: I have two whole chapters in teacher kid to say that navigate through these issues and motivation and should kids be paid. 11:27.130 --> 11:32.057 [SPEAKER_01]: The, the side that says kids should not be paid, say, just like you said, it's a basic family expectation. 11:32.418 --> 11:40.409 [SPEAKER_01]: Also, they say truthfully that if you start paying kids, saying, start paying people for something they expect to be paid for in the future. 11:40.529 --> 11:47.219 [SPEAKER_01]: So what happens if you're not always doing a mini economy or what happens if they, and you're not going to have someone paying you to watch the dishes every day of your life? 11:47.800 --> 11:49.022 [SPEAKER_01]: That's what we just got to do. 11:49.282 --> 11:50.083 [SPEAKER_01]: I wish. 11:50.148 --> 11:50.969 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no kidding. 11:51.310 --> 12:01.427 [SPEAKER_01]: So there's a lot of merit to the idea that no, you shouldn't pay them, but on the other hand, if you don't pay them, then you miss the opportunity to teach them about the connection between work and money and their goals. 12:01.727 --> 12:09.540 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think the stakes are as high in this argument as we might think because you can just pay them for some work, but not pay them for other work. 12:09.520 --> 12:13.464 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, right because kids can think in categories, they do that all the time. 12:13.804 --> 12:17.607 [SPEAKER_01]: So in the book, I recommend actually three categories of work. 12:17.627 --> 12:23.092 [SPEAKER_01]: There's family work, which is always an expectation, which is something we need to do because you're part of the family. 12:23.112 --> 12:24.413 [SPEAKER_01]: And then there's your job. 12:24.634 --> 12:29.658 [SPEAKER_01]: And your job, I really focus on productivity here, rather than cleaning up behind yourself. 12:29.678 --> 12:30.879 [SPEAKER_01]: This is making something new. 12:31.200 --> 12:32.100 [SPEAKER_01]: This is creating. 12:32.461 --> 12:34.943 [SPEAKER_01]: This is making the house a better place for all of us. 12:35.343 --> 12:39.527 [SPEAKER_01]: And that teaches them this economics message that we have to produce in order to consume. 12:39.507 --> 12:40.949 [SPEAKER_01]: Right. 12:41.550 --> 12:46.477 [SPEAKER_01]: And that teaches them the financial habits that they're not going to get if you don't pay them for work. 12:46.677 --> 12:54.649 [SPEAKER_01]: And then well, their service work also when the kids get paid for their work, and especially if they have their own businesses, they learn the value of their work. 12:54.669 --> 13:01.699 [SPEAKER_01]: They kind of sign the value to it, especially when they negotiate over the price, make choices over time, delay gratification. 13:01.739 --> 13:06.126 [SPEAKER_01]: They start to understand the value of their work, and it is value even at their young age. 13:06.827 --> 13:07.067 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 13:07.908 --> 13:14.154 [SPEAKER_01]: So they understand that we give money to the Lord through Titan, but we give service work as well. 13:14.534 --> 13:24.824 [SPEAKER_01]: And they see all the work that goes into keeping the church going, you know, Dad has to go, he has to go teach the kids class this week, and I've got to go set up the chairs, moms on nursery duty this week. 13:24.844 --> 13:32.992 [SPEAKER_01]: And so having the service work category also shows us that we have a duty to the community as well, it's community in a school creme update or something like that. 13:33.473 --> 13:33.573 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 13:33.593 --> 13:35.755 [SPEAKER_01]: And we work their job service work. 13:35.735 --> 13:39.204 [SPEAKER_00]: And do you talk about those categories with your kids like do you tell them like this chore? 13:39.345 --> 13:41.310 [SPEAKER_00]: This is part of our family work? 13:41.330 --> 13:45.902 [SPEAKER_00]: So I feel like that's really helpful to have buckets like that because that is how the real world works. 13:45.962 --> 13:47.867 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not always just like you do this, you get paid. 13:48.148 --> 13:50.093 [SPEAKER_00]: Like I, you know, no one pays me to do the dishes. 13:50.354 --> 13:51.938 [SPEAKER_01]: You have no, no one does. 13:51.918 --> 13:55.565 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you have buckets for your money and you have buckets for your time as well. 13:55.945 --> 14:00.935 [SPEAKER_01]: And last weekend, we were going to start up our new mini economy semester. 14:01.035 --> 14:05.343 [SPEAKER_01]: We'd given the new jobs and we'd upgraded everything, kind of refreshed everything. 14:05.703 --> 14:10.592 [SPEAKER_01]: Because I had read my own book and soon that we hadn't done the things I said to do in the book. 14:11.013 --> 14:12.576 [SPEAKER_01]: It's really embarrassing. 14:12.556 --> 14:28.576 [SPEAKER_01]: So we refresh the mini economy, but then we had church service day start start with service day at city church of Richmond and so I told the kids were doing service work today and they said they almost grown because they wanted to do their work and get money. 14:28.636 --> 14:36.285 [SPEAKER_01]: But they understood because we talked about it and they're pretty conscientious about it and now they're saying, okay, this is service work we do this sometimes and this morning. 14:36.265 --> 14:37.146 [SPEAKER_00]: I like that. 14:37.326 --> 14:39.929 [SPEAKER_00]: You said that you realized you weren't doing it, right? 14:40.130 --> 14:48.079 [SPEAKER_00]: You read your book and we're like, no, we're missing some things because I think sometimes parents decide, at least I, I'm very guilty. 14:48.099 --> 14:56.169 [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to do this new thing and I'm going to set it up and it's going to be so great and then it doesn't go 100% perfect and I'm like, well, I guess I just am not doing this anymore. 14:56.229 --> 15:03.117 [SPEAKER_00]: So what are some, like mistakes you've made along the way in some kind of ways you've like made up for that or just kind of worked through it? 15:03.485 --> 15:06.731 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, there's a whole chapter in teach a kid to say, called mistakes. 15:06.951 --> 15:11.480 [SPEAKER_01]: Whenever I made a new mistake, I just wrote it down at the towards the end of the book. 15:11.700 --> 15:21.077 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, the ones that I encountered just recently had to do is basically the kids growing out of their goals and we didn't work with them to refresh their goals. 15:21.418 --> 15:22.079 [SPEAKER_01]: Is what happened? 15:22.620 --> 15:24.143 [SPEAKER_01]: Data should be their savings goal. 15:24.123 --> 15:32.294 [SPEAKER_01]: We actually have, here's an advanced mini economy thing, we have the, we have taxes that go towards getting a thing that all of us in the family can consume together. 15:32.314 --> 15:42.588 [SPEAKER_01]: So, our, as we're going towards buying a trampoline, but we've gotten the trampoline, the kids that achieve their savings goals, the stuff in the store, we had had the same stuff that our family stores for a really long time. 15:42.968 --> 15:49.557 [SPEAKER_01]: And then we have a 13 year old, you know, she's starting to grow and want some new things, and we hadn't refreshed any of this stuff. 15:50.093 --> 15:53.356 [SPEAKER_01]: So, and they got, and they'd grown out of their jobs. 15:53.657 --> 15:55.298 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, they had these little kid jobs. 15:55.659 --> 16:02.826 [SPEAKER_01]: My two sons were complaining that the six year old has had a four year old jobs with the last year. 16:02.846 --> 16:05.189 [SPEAKER_01]: But my ask them, it's them, and we do many economy. 16:05.489 --> 16:07.551 [SPEAKER_01]: What are some things you'd like to see this next year? 16:07.571 --> 16:10.174 [SPEAKER_01]: And they both said, Lucy needs a harder job. 16:10.394 --> 16:11.816 [SPEAKER_01]: So Lucy now has a harder job. 16:12.156 --> 16:13.498 [SPEAKER_01]: She's not the zookeeper anymore. 16:13.538 --> 16:15.780 [SPEAKER_01]: Just taking care of what's filling the cat bowl. 16:16.807 --> 16:17.388 [SPEAKER_00]: That's funny. 16:17.748 --> 16:17.929 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 16:17.949 --> 16:20.733 [SPEAKER_01]: So the kids, many economy jobs should use skill. 16:21.334 --> 16:25.381 [SPEAKER_01]: The thing that was called progressive, progressive task, complexion. 16:25.601 --> 16:29.066 [SPEAKER_01]: You get better at stuff as you get old or especially kids do. 16:29.187 --> 16:30.649 [SPEAKER_01]: So they outgrown their jobs. 16:31.009 --> 16:37.440 [SPEAKER_01]: If you have jobs that are just cleaning up after yourself, then it doesn't require any challenge, doesn't require any skill. 16:37.740 --> 16:40.564 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's really hard to be motivated, right? 16:40.605 --> 16:42.207 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's one reason. 16:42.187 --> 16:46.971 [SPEAKER_01]: why kids don't like to do their chores is because we give them boring judgeery. 16:47.191 --> 16:48.072 [SPEAKER_01]: The stuff that we don't like. 16:48.092 --> 16:48.212 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 16:48.633 --> 16:51.655 [SPEAKER_01]: I guess we're the reason why we assign those things because we don't want to do it. 16:52.376 --> 16:58.221 [SPEAKER_00]: That's totally, I did have my boy as after school yesterday, clean my kitchen because I didn't feel like doing it. 16:58.361 --> 16:59.242 [SPEAKER_00]: But that's a good one. 16:59.643 --> 17:01.024 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's a good one. 17:01.044 --> 17:01.905 [SPEAKER_00]: And I needed to be done. 17:01.945 --> 17:03.506 [SPEAKER_00]: But I was like, you guys should do this. 17:03.666 --> 17:04.947 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't need to be doing this right now. 17:05.168 --> 17:05.928 [SPEAKER_00]: You should be doing it. 17:06.088 --> 17:06.809 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm still working. 17:07.129 --> 17:09.131 [SPEAKER_01]: But there is some judgeery that needs to be done. 17:09.171 --> 17:10.152 [SPEAKER_01]: It just has to. 17:10.132 --> 17:13.960 [SPEAKER_01]: But that's real life, like I think that I have my dream job. 17:14.300 --> 17:20.393 [SPEAKER_01]: I have my dream job, Stephanie, and there's a lot of my day that is so boring and dull. 17:20.413 --> 17:21.014 [SPEAKER_01]: 100%. 17:21.114 --> 17:21.435 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 17:22.236 --> 17:24.841 [SPEAKER_01]: You still have all these tasks to do that you don't want to do. 17:25.102 --> 17:30.132 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I tell the kids I'm like, in every job there's boring parts and interesting parts, you know. 17:30.112 --> 17:33.317 [SPEAKER_01]: I will say that both of them are God's work. 17:33.337 --> 17:37.122 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we're created in the image of God and we're supposed to imitate Him. 17:37.462 --> 17:41.428 [SPEAKER_01]: And the first thing that we see in the Bible is that God is a worker, a creator. 17:41.788 --> 17:44.272 [SPEAKER_01]: He creates and we're supposed to imitate Him in that. 17:44.572 --> 17:49.960 [SPEAKER_01]: But the first thing who gives Adam to do in the garden is to maintain the garden and to name the animals. 17:49.940 --> 17:57.157 [SPEAKER_01]: And so we often think that maintenance is kind of not worth doing or it's lower work or something like that. 17:57.538 --> 18:01.428 [SPEAKER_01]: But it takes a lot of hard work just to maintain what we already have. 18:01.729 --> 18:06.480 [SPEAKER_01]: The people who went before us in life were not a bunch of fools, they were very skill. 18:06.460 --> 18:11.628 [SPEAKER_01]: and it takes hard work to maintain what they've done and we hope to add to it as well. 18:11.969 --> 18:16.115 [SPEAKER_01]: So, both those things are the work that we should do as being made in God's image. 18:16.135 --> 18:29.075 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm kind of curious and you kind of briefly mentioned this, but I feel like maybe there are parents who are listening who are wondering, like, or maybe there are parents who are already there, but like what happens next and you kind of mentioned you have a 13-year-old, I have a 13-year-old, too. 18:29.476 --> 18:32.400 [SPEAKER_00]: And so, at a certain point, you're like, well, you can get a real job soon. 18:32.380 --> 18:36.384 [SPEAKER_00]: And like you have to learn actual financial responsibility. 18:36.424 --> 18:43.412 [SPEAKER_00]: So how does this concept kind of start to transition into like real world financial responsibilities? 18:43.432 --> 18:45.094 [SPEAKER_00]: Like how does it make the process easier? 18:45.334 --> 18:46.356 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, great question. 18:46.596 --> 18:51.281 [SPEAKER_01]: In our many economy, we have a peg of, sorry, that's an economics term. 18:51.301 --> 18:55.806 [SPEAKER_01]: It's an exchange rate of two many economy dollars for every American dollar. 18:55.786 --> 19:00.150 [SPEAKER_01]: So our currency is called day box, so it's two day box for every U.S. dollar. 19:00.551 --> 19:01.952 [SPEAKER_01]: You can always exchange those. 19:02.312 --> 19:04.354 [SPEAKER_01]: And so we have no restrictions on that. 19:04.695 --> 19:10.440 [SPEAKER_01]: When the kids are very small and you provide them with all of their consumption choices, right? 19:10.460 --> 19:13.704 [SPEAKER_01]: And especially when they do their job, their store is right there. 19:13.924 --> 19:16.827 [SPEAKER_01]: And it gives you a lot of control over what they consume. 19:17.047 --> 19:22.532 [SPEAKER_01]: You can even make things more expensive that you don't want them to have, really like more plastic toys. 19:23.053 --> 19:25.455 [SPEAKER_01]: And you can make a bit cheaper that you do want them to have. 19:25.435 --> 19:27.558 [SPEAKER_01]: So you can kind of manipulate the prices. 19:28.059 --> 19:29.420 [SPEAKER_01]: Hold it, it's get wise to this. 19:30.101 --> 19:33.586 [SPEAKER_01]: And as they get older, they value real US dollars more. 19:34.908 --> 19:37.491 [SPEAKER_01]: The neat thing is that that happens smoothly. 19:37.792 --> 19:41.297 [SPEAKER_01]: You don't need to decide that they've aged out or aged up or something like that. 19:41.377 --> 19:45.422 [SPEAKER_01]: They just start to ask for those for US dollars more. 19:45.823 --> 19:49.688 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, they still value the privileged coupons. 19:50.427 --> 19:57.957 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that there's a lot of things that teenagers want that parents say no to, so you can still sell them those privilege components. 19:58.077 --> 20:00.039 [SPEAKER_00]: Screen time, sleepovers. 20:00.480 --> 20:01.461 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah. 20:01.481 --> 20:04.966 [SPEAKER_01]: Screen time, there's so much of it in screen time. 20:05.266 --> 20:06.287 [SPEAKER_01]: One mistake that I made. 20:06.347 --> 20:07.789 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah, here's none of the states chapter. 20:07.889 --> 20:11.073 [SPEAKER_01]: It's selling kids stuff that they're likely to get already. 20:11.434 --> 20:16.480 [SPEAKER_01]: So you don't want to miss for sale that they were unlimited or free. 20:16.861 --> 20:20.265 [SPEAKER_01]: And you don't want to sell them stuff that's good for them 20:20.600 --> 20:20.941 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 20:21.642 --> 20:28.432 [SPEAKER_01]: So many economists not a punishment, it's productivity, so they should be able to get new stuff that they wouldn't otherwise. 20:28.492 --> 20:37.967 [SPEAKER_01]: Even if it might come as a hassle for the parent, you know, you might not want to organize that sleepover, but you know what, they earned it, it did the work. 20:37.947 --> 20:40.330 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, let's chase down a sleepover for them. 20:40.490 --> 20:45.495 [SPEAKER_01]: But I think that I had thought about saying his Daisy 2 old for many economy. 20:45.515 --> 20:47.257 [SPEAKER_01]: But my wife had wise words. 20:47.357 --> 20:49.320 [SPEAKER_01]: She said, Daisy's part of the family. 20:49.660 --> 20:51.742 [SPEAKER_01]: So she should be part of the economy as well. 20:52.003 --> 20:56.187 [SPEAKER_01]: She still is and she just gets new more challenging work each time to do. 20:56.247 --> 20:57.208 [SPEAKER_01]: And we give them raises. 20:57.569 --> 21:03.796 [SPEAKER_01]: We tell them, in fact, this semester for many economy, I say, we're increasing your pay to five day box per job. 21:04.036 --> 21:05.878 [SPEAKER_01]: And they go, yeah. 21:05.858 --> 21:10.608 [SPEAKER_01]: Why, to add, thank you, your generous, I know it's not generous, is you deserve it, your work is more valuable. 21:11.069 --> 21:17.763 [SPEAKER_01]: You've been improving your skills, you deserve it, like look what you can do that you didn't used to be able to do now, you can do it. 21:17.903 --> 21:22.754 [SPEAKER_01]: That's what makes it, by the way, an economy rather than just a behavior management system. 21:23.595 --> 21:24.357 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 21:25.130 --> 21:26.131 [SPEAKER_00]: That makes a lot of sense. 21:26.491 --> 21:33.398 [SPEAKER_01]: I can all mix us about goals and the work that we do to achieve our goals and the choices that we make in which goals to achieve. 21:33.418 --> 21:33.559 [SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm. 21:33.579 --> 21:34.460 [SPEAKER_00]: That makes a lot of sense. 21:34.840 --> 21:44.430 [SPEAKER_00]: So, if you're listening and I think this seems like something that I want to do, this seems practical and easy, and I think you're giving a lot of great ideas. 21:44.590 --> 21:54.580 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it addresses a lot of the issues that parents have with battling screen time and when do I say yes to the fun things and when do I just say no, you know, this all 21:54.560 --> 21:55.622 [SPEAKER_00]: it all fits together. 21:55.802 --> 22:00.811 [SPEAKER_00]: And I imagine that it makes a lot of family dynamics, lots of smoother and easier, which we're all about. 22:01.252 --> 22:10.990 [SPEAKER_00]: So for people who are interested, like what's something that they can do this week in the next month, like something just to get them started, so that it doesn't feel so overwhelming. 22:11.191 --> 22:13.615 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, they should buy the book. 22:13.595 --> 22:20.304 [SPEAKER_01]: You should get to save a fun hands-on approach to building smart money habits, which is on Reveal, which is an imprint of Baker books. 22:20.364 --> 22:24.210 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's up on everywhere where you might buy books. 22:24.230 --> 22:24.991 [SPEAKER_01]: It's available now. 22:25.151 --> 22:25.732 [SPEAKER_01]: Please buy it. 22:25.872 --> 22:26.373 [SPEAKER_01]: I'd be great. 22:27.094 --> 22:30.879 [SPEAKER_01]: You can also blog about this every other week at my sub stack. 22:30.899 --> 22:34.404 [SPEAKER_01]: We're just called Paper Robots, helping families talk about money and work. 22:34.765 --> 22:36.868 [SPEAKER_01]: So just subscribe to Paper Robots. 22:37.088 --> 22:42.876 [SPEAKER_01]: My website is drsteedemday.com, drsteedemday.com, and I have three downloads there. 22:42.856 --> 22:48.605 [SPEAKER_01]: So if you get your templates for starting out many economy, you can just download those for free. 22:48.645 --> 22:50.749 [SPEAKER_01]: There's no obligation or sign up or anything. 22:51.009 --> 22:52.432 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's a resource for you. 22:52.852 --> 22:55.096 [SPEAKER_00]: What are some of the templates that you have on there? 22:55.276 --> 22:57.320 [SPEAKER_01]: I've got savings goal. 22:57.380 --> 22:59.543 [SPEAKER_01]: So what's your savings goal? 22:59.884 --> 23:01.026 [SPEAKER_01]: And then what do you give up? 23:01.306 --> 23:03.269 [SPEAKER_01]: Because that's the opportunity cost. 23:03.309 --> 23:06.214 [SPEAKER_01]: You always say, what do I give up when I make this choice? 23:06.194 --> 23:11.962 [SPEAKER_01]: because the cost of something is what you give up to get it and it has a thermometer that helps that shows their progress. 23:12.402 --> 23:15.026 [SPEAKER_01]: There's some their accounting book or their money chart. 23:15.186 --> 23:22.436 [SPEAKER_01]: There's also coupons that you can clip out and then there's white coupons that you can make your own and then there's the money templates as well. 23:22.856 --> 23:27.122 [SPEAKER_01]: So those are all there and you can enlist your kids and pay them to help 23:27.102 --> 23:29.826 [SPEAKER_01]: create these things and the little ones like to color the money. 23:30.206 --> 23:35.633 [SPEAKER_01]: All of our money is the most horrendous color because we're only learning this child, the job of coloring it. 23:36.074 --> 23:38.096 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I had a much of three year olds coloring them. 23:38.117 --> 23:48.670 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but it's such a fun way to get everybody involved and I imagine then if you go and you get the book and then you download the resources and you come together as a family and you're like, we're going to start this new thing and we can all have jobs to get it going. 23:48.771 --> 23:56.721 [SPEAKER_00]: Whether that's writing what's on the coupons or cutting them out or coloring like it 23:56.701 --> 23:58.063 [SPEAKER_00]: That's how they're going to get excited. 23:58.123 --> 24:00.747 [SPEAKER_00]: Or else they're like, ah, another thing mom's going to do. 24:01.147 --> 24:06.374 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the key is to emphasize that they're going to get more and better stuff, you know. 24:06.695 --> 24:07.015 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 24:07.296 --> 24:10.320 [SPEAKER_01]: And actually, I've had, and the house is going to look nicer. 24:10.700 --> 24:12.202 [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to be able to serve others. 24:12.423 --> 24:13.704 [SPEAKER_01]: They're going to build new skills. 24:14.105 --> 24:15.407 [SPEAKER_01]: They're going to get new privileges. 24:15.647 --> 24:21.135 [SPEAKER_01]: And they might not like to do the extra work all the time, but something that we're going to do is a family. 24:21.475 --> 24:25.881 [SPEAKER_01]: And you'll find out that when you do these, when you build this vision together, 24:26.215 --> 24:28.538 [SPEAKER_01]: and that it starts going on this year. 24:28.879 --> 24:35.708 [SPEAKER_01]: And if you plan to do it for just a couple weeks or a month, then you don't feel too scared about it as well. 24:36.109 --> 24:38.011 [SPEAKER_01]: For a while, we just did it only in the summertime. 24:38.432 --> 24:45.642 [SPEAKER_01]: Then now we keep it going during the school year, but for us it was a way to organize those endless summer hours that are completely unstructured. 24:45.622 --> 24:45.903 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 24:46.263 --> 24:47.025 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I like the idea. 24:47.045 --> 25:04.496 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you can start small or you can start big like you can customize it for your family and just keeping the big picture in mind that you're teaching them so much more than just money and what stuff is worth but what the value of hard work and what it takes to be a responsible person with the job and that's just everything that we want as parents. 25:04.516 --> 25:05.458 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's amazing. 25:05.478 --> 25:06.600 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you. 25:06.580 --> 25:29.837 [SPEAKER_01]: there's been several inspiring parts and this is going to sound maybe just doesn't sound that inspiring but for me it was it was it was it's when I told my nine-year-old Robby I said I will pay you one day buck for brewing our coffee in the morning and he said that's just not enough and I said he said it's going to be three I said three there's no way and I said okay look Robby 25:29.817 --> 25:34.626 [SPEAKER_01]: If you're not willing to pay that for that price, then that looks like this deal is just not going to happen. 25:35.007 --> 25:38.274 [SPEAKER_01]: And I thought that I was going to kind of brow beat him until we're wearing the price. 25:38.314 --> 25:41.139 [SPEAKER_01]: But he just said, yeah, that sounds right, deals off. 25:41.520 --> 25:45.949 [SPEAKER_01]: And I just was like kind of amazed that he had a value on his work. 25:46.309 --> 25:47.031 [SPEAKER_01]: He was going to do well. 25:47.051 --> 25:48.113 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not like he was being lazy. 25:48.133 --> 25:49.716 [SPEAKER_01]: He stole his other job. 25:49.696 --> 25:51.178 [SPEAKER_01]: you need to stand up for itself. 25:51.258 --> 25:58.329 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think kids should learn that their work is valuable, they're producing their, this is, it's not just a punishment, you know? 25:58.349 --> 26:00.272 [SPEAKER_01]: This work is something that we're made to do. 26:00.312 --> 26:10.167 [SPEAKER_01]: Our work is valuable, our time is valuable, our us is valuable, and you learn how to talk about that and what to do about it over time as you make choices. 26:10.508 --> 26:10.728 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 26:10.748 --> 26:12.331 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, and he's advocating for himself. 26:12.451 --> 26:13.172 [SPEAKER_00]: I love that. 26:13.355 --> 26:15.398 [SPEAKER_01]: That's the word I was looking for. 26:15.418 --> 26:17.081 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was advocating for him. 26:17.101 --> 26:18.523 [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, which is hard. 26:18.563 --> 26:19.685 [SPEAKER_00]: It's hard for kids to do that. 26:19.725 --> 26:21.147 [SPEAKER_00]: It's hard for adults to do that. 26:21.888 --> 26:23.451 [SPEAKER_01]: So well, I, so hard. 26:23.811 --> 26:31.022 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I, I tell a story in the book where I had a neighbor this young woman and I asked her, so what's new with you? 26:31.082 --> 26:34.267 [SPEAKER_01]: And she was just about to start a graduate program, creative writing. 26:34.788 --> 26:35.569 [SPEAKER_01]: And I said, oh, great. 26:35.589 --> 26:36.531 [SPEAKER_01]: What do you like to write about? 26:36.871 --> 26:41.218 [SPEAKER_01]: But before I could ask that, she said, so I'm taking on a lot more debt. 26:41.198 --> 26:49.138 [SPEAKER_01]: on top of my undergrad debt, and I say up how are you going to pay for this, you know, and she said, I don't know. 26:49.198 --> 26:51.564 [SPEAKER_01]: I just figured I was already in so much debt. 26:51.745 --> 26:58.161 [SPEAKER_01]: I'll just be in debt the rest of my life, and I just, you know, thought maybe it would be a good experience to have. 26:58.141 --> 27:00.746 [SPEAKER_01]: I was just struck by her sense of powerlessness. 27:02.128 --> 27:04.834 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, this life thing is just happening to me. 27:05.194 --> 27:07.859 [SPEAKER_01]: And I could just kind of squeeze a little enjoying it out of it. 27:08.220 --> 27:13.650 [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, the high point of her life was playing on being this program that she didn't look excited to go to. 27:13.690 --> 27:15.554 [SPEAKER_01]: She was just like, let me, you know. 27:15.974 --> 27:17.938 [SPEAKER_01]: This is in early 20s, you know. 27:17.918 --> 27:27.674 [SPEAKER_01]: So this is someone who just does not really have a sense of self-worth, not really able to advocate for themselves and to value of their work over time. 27:27.734 --> 27:35.507 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'd like to see my kids grow up to have to have to have stronger habits and stronger goals and clear sense of value. 27:35.868 --> 27:40.095 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that providing them those opportunities when their little can help them. 27:40.115 --> 27:40.315 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 27:40.295 --> 27:41.617 [SPEAKER_00]: such a good point. 27:41.697 --> 27:45.121 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think this is a really fantastic resource to help with that. 27:45.141 --> 27:46.743 [SPEAKER_00]: I think your ideas are great. 27:46.963 --> 27:48.825 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I thank you for being on. 27:48.945 --> 27:55.873 [SPEAKER_00]: And for sharing all of this, I'll put links to everything, including all those resources and show notes that people can find them and they can get started on their own. 27:56.214 --> 27:59.117 [SPEAKER_00]: Many economy with their family and see where it takes them. 27:59.357 --> 28:04.243 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I would say, you know, you can't actually get some great practices. 28:04.223 --> 28:07.628 [SPEAKER_01]: to using your family even if you don't do the mini economy system. 28:07.808 --> 28:17.882 [SPEAKER_01]: I organized a thinking and talking about it about the mini economy, but even if you don't have the system going right then, like trust me, you'll take away some practices they could do. 28:17.902 --> 28:19.084 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely. 28:19.304 --> 28:22.228 [SPEAKER_00]: Little by little, start small and build on it for what works. 28:22.288 --> 28:22.488 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 28:23.129 --> 28:23.350 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 28:23.550 --> 28:24.832 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, thank you for being here. 28:24.872 --> 28:25.933 [SPEAKER_00]: I really appreciate your time. 28:26.174 --> 28:26.915 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's been a blast. 28:26.955 --> 28:27.936 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Stephanie. 28:29.249 --> 28:30.971 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for joining us today. 28:31.011 --> 28:35.076 [SPEAKER_00]: This was just a really helpful conversation for me, and I hope that it was for you too. 28:35.096 --> 28:44.028 [SPEAKER_00]: And I hope that I reminded you that you don't have to do everything perfectly or have it completely figured out to start teaching your kids about money, work, and responsibility. 28:44.549 --> 28:49.034 [SPEAKER_00]: Small steps really do matter, so just start today and keep building upon what you're doing. 28:49.555 --> 28:54.261 [SPEAKER_00]: So as you head back into your day, make God give you wisdom to know what your family needs in this season. 28:54.680 --> 28:59.430 [SPEAKER_00]: patience as you try new rhythms and grace for yourself when things don't go perfectly. 28:59.991 --> 29:07.828 [SPEAKER_00]: May your home be a place where your kids learn that their work has value, their choice is matter and that everything we have ultimately belongs to the Lord.