[SPEAKER_02]: Well, welcome back to Chiccio Sane.
[SPEAKER_02]: We have Chiccio Trevor.
[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks, Andrea.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're the first person I'm speaking to in 2026.
[SPEAKER_00]: Never would have predicted this.
[SPEAKER_00]: This would be the way to kick off the year.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, happy New Year.
[SPEAKER_03]: Happy Chiccio, New Year.
[SPEAKER_03]: When did you join the community?
[SPEAKER_00]: It was either March or April of this year, which is insane because it feels like yesterday, but that's at minimum nine months ago.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, I was trying to track that down and do the math on that.
[SPEAKER_00]: It found you in the late summer of 2024s.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe like seven or eight months.
[SPEAKER_01]: How did you find the podcast?
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it was you were a guest on another podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: Then when I started pulling the thread, when I hit like my like child rock bottom, I think it was coming somewhere from maybe ADHD.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe a podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: talking about some similarities between symptoms of ADHD and PTSD.
[SPEAKER_00]: So maybe you were a guest somewhere because when I hit 31, that's when I really tried to dial in on ADHD and I think once I started to see the limitations of of treating ADHD, I was like, oh, there's more to it than this, not exactly a matter of attention, you know when did you get diagnosed with ADHD.
[SPEAKER_00]: known for the longest time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Probably since I was a teenager, I was probably dealing with something.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so for me, I got diagnosed.
[SPEAKER_03]: I guess it was in maybe 2023, but I don't really think that I have ADHD.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it's like CBTSD and also I think it's the changes that my phone has made to my brain.
[SPEAKER_00]: a lot of the symptoms are so similar.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's even if the root cause isn't ADHD and it is PTSD, I feel like the regiment I'm on for ADHD helps me, you know?
[SPEAKER_00]: And like, there's no point in me denying myself that like that care, even if I know it's PTSD because it's helpful to me, you know?
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's both a lot of the times.
[SPEAKER_00]: of castes and now ADHD often I feel like they're not exactly talking to me like there's some of the expertise is valuable to me but I also feel a lot of it doesn't speak to like core issues of attention like it goes like we can talk about procrastination but procrastination that goes deeper into like fear and things like that and safety you know which I don't hear about
[SPEAKER_00]: was nice to get that diagnosis at first because it helped me figure out why things had gone the way they had gone, but then I still was clinging to the notion of, oh I can improve or like get better than this, or circumvent, and that was painful to realize.
[SPEAKER_00]: No it doesn't really go away.
[SPEAKER_03]: Where do your symptoms show up mostly?
[SPEAKER_00]: They've changed throughout my life.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now I'd say a lot of it has to do with memory and just externalizing information so that I can keep it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because basically if I put something in a drawer, I wouldn't forget it's there physically and mentally.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, just I can't be like, oh, I'll come back to this.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll remember this.
[SPEAKER_00]: For procrastination, not as bad, but it's still around just like avoidance of tasks
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like I have that motor running to like do things 24-7, but like starting is a whole other story.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that can be kind of torture sometimes.
[SPEAKER_03]: Tell me about it.
[SPEAKER_03]: I get that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I can't remember what the terminology of it.
[SPEAKER_03]: I came up with something, but it's like the it's like you're ready to roll, but then it's like the moment you get started just like that phrase.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's and it's like I can learn the lesson a million times of like
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, just do it for 10 minutes, and then you'll see it's not so bad, but I'm always like, I don't want to start it, and then of course after 10 minutes, I'm like, oh, that was easy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Why didn't I?
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's like, Groundhog Day, like, that happens every single week, Jake.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and then when you do the tasks that takes you 15 minutes that you've been like putting off for 15 years.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, I mean, you want to talk about like new year's resolutions, half of them are things like it probably knock out this weekend, you know?
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so what songs do you want to play when you walk into a room?
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to go with cause equals time.
[SPEAKER_00]: My broken social scene.
[SPEAKER_00]: No clue what that is.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a great song.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't hear that song and not when I start playing here guitar.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so good.
[SPEAKER_03]: Broken social scene.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's the name of the band.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_03]: OK.
[SPEAKER_03]: I look forward to hearing it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Favorite carbohydrate?
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm a sucker for breakfast.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's my favorite meal of the day.
[SPEAKER_00]: You give pretty much offer me a pancake or waffle at any time.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I would never say no.
[SPEAKER_03]: I agree.
[SPEAKER_03]: Cheese.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if we're talking, I'm going to put on a sandwich.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to go with like, pepper jack.
[SPEAKER_01]: OK.
[SPEAKER_00]: But growing up in the Midwest felt like I ate my body weight in like case of dip at restaurants.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's like that, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: OK.
[SPEAKER_00]: So white case of dip.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's my favorite.
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, we'll never change that now.
[SPEAKER_03]: Spavy?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Injected directly into my veins.
[SPEAKER_03]: Condiment?
[SPEAKER_03]: White case of cheese.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I feel like that would be cheating.
[SPEAKER_00]: I said, because I think someone just said this recently, but I do love garlic aoli.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was hoping to be original, but I heard that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, yeah, that's good.
[SPEAKER_00]: Pack.
[SPEAKER_03]: We've got a handful of garlic aoli's.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, I like that one.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think by volume, probably to range, but that's so ubiquitous, you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's like give me like a spicy aoli or like serrature or something, but yeah, garlic is huge.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so how did you learn that you were an adult child?
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's see.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when you first reach out for this interview, you were so smart and anticipating that it would be like, I don't want to, you don't think about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just say yes, so I did.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was like, I'm fairly new to the shit show and the concept of like being an adult child
[SPEAKER_00]: And like I don't really play a lot of video games that one of them is into that sort of thing It was like, hey, what did we just like made a little project of making a game just to like learn how to do it You know, and I agreed to join in and we were pitching ideas about it and once I pitched my idea It's all so low stakes
[SPEAKER_00]: And we're like, all right, Trevor, like, great.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to go with yours.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're going to be the project manager of Sota's League.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was 10 seconds to go from like, all right, sweet sounds fun.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you think, like, like, no, like, this isn't going to go well?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, this thing that was supposed to be for fun turned into something that I was hinting about or work, couldn't communicate, like, what I needed or wanted to get too seriously.
[SPEAKER_00]: took on all of these responsibilities.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't have to.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I think a month and a half in, I was like, I can't do this.
[SPEAKER_00]: I got to go.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so what did I do?
[SPEAKER_00]: I slated myself and didn't talk to these people for too much.
[SPEAKER_00]: And in that time, I was just like, something's wrong here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like this, it was so, it was supposed to be in no pressure.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I immediately
[SPEAKER_00]: something that's kind of been happening my whole life, like what's going on?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it was it had to do with ADHD, but the feelings were so intense, like what did they say?
[SPEAKER_00]: They weren't right-sized for the situation.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was like, this is at right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I got to figure this out.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's when I started looking around, listening to more and more stuff, reading more about ADHD, and then eventually coming across the concept of being an adult child.
[SPEAKER_03]: What was your understanding
[SPEAKER_03]: Like you're upbringing where you under the impression that you had some baggage or damage from your childhood up until that point or was that like something that was hard to come to grips with.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that this question really trips me up because.
[SPEAKER_00]: It requires conceptualizing, like, as a kid, how aware was I of what was going on?
[SPEAKER_00]: The 80s stuff, those symptoms were really obvious when I turned, maybe at 9 or 10, got into like middle school.
[SPEAKER_00]: Up until that point, I was like a fine student, you know,
[SPEAKER_00]: And then there was a day, probably like in the fourth grade, I just never did homework ever again, you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I, I was skin of my teeth, graduated public high school in Kentucky.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like literally the day of graduation, my high school counselor told me a side was like, you can never, ever, ever do this again.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I knew that I struggled with a lot of things that other people didn't in the sense of just
[SPEAKER_00]: task initiation like study homework staying on top of things stuff like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was all really obvious to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't I guess I didn't really know
[SPEAKER_00]: where that came from.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like how that what set it up so that I felt helpless when it came to doing those things are unable to change those behaviors.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think like being a latch key kid probably has nothing to do with it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So my mom was and I say was he used to be a school teacher.
[SPEAKER_00]: She was a kindergarten teacher.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I went to the school she taught it up until at third grade.
[SPEAKER_00]: So there was a lot of structure there and then
[SPEAKER_00]: when I went to a different school, a lot of that structure sort of fell away.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think my mom sort of seeing my sister and I as like mark kids, thinking that back of her mind maybe it was like, oh, they got it.
[SPEAKER_00]: They'll be fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're bright.
[SPEAKER_00]: They'll figure it out when it was like, maybe, but we were also still, children.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and so I just, I think a lot
[SPEAKER_00]: There was proximity, maybe, but not attention.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like my dad was not really invested in, like, or upbringing in the sense of, like, day-to-day, minutia, homework, school, things like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was our mom's arena, and I think she was maybe, we'll just say spread to thin or doing her own thing to really,
[SPEAKER_00]: closely observed the cowpings were going.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think I was just kind of left to tread water for a long time.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I just got really, really good at tready water.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I turned 30 what day it was like, oh, like, what happened to my life?
[SPEAKER_03]: Your parents were married.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, so I grew up with a mother and father and they got divorced when I was,
[SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah, that's a fun way to kick off being a teenager, you know, but I'm sure we'll talk more about that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, yeah, so what were the dynamics like between your parents?
[SPEAKER_00]: Growing up with my first actual memory, I think, maybe when I was three or four, I must be after it, but there's something.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just remember waking up from a nap, coming out toward a living room in my dad coming home and being like,
[SPEAKER_00]: not recognizing him or just feeling like a sort of like the change of like oh who's this guy because he doesn't seem like a lot of fun you know general move between my parents there wasn't a lot of obvious love or affection between them like I could see that very early on when I say they thought there were arguments not like long knockout drag out eyes but he had a
[SPEAKER_00]: My mom I think did not so great of a job hiding how she really felt about him, you know, I think at a distance we probably looked like a fine normal family, but I think my sister and I were just honestly like terrifying or dad at times and we looked fit together and we were going to
[SPEAKER_00]: Neither of us were claiming to spend more time with our parents so it was pretty early age, you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: But 12 or 13 when they finally got a divorce.
[SPEAKER_00]: My mom was pretty not sure about telling me about it, but I mean, I just felt really, because it was like, oh, thank God, this is over.
[SPEAKER_00]: We had gone on a pretty awful family vacation that just, it felt like it was undeniable at that point that our family was not.
[SPEAKER_00]: We did not want to spend any time at the car in a car with each other.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when they talked about the four cells, it's just like, oh, sweet.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, anything is better than what we have going right now.
[SPEAKER_03]: When you made the comment about your mom didn't do a very good job about hiding how she felt about him.
[SPEAKER_03]: Do you mean, like, kind of like, print vacation like using you guys as like therapists for me, maybe not print vacation.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just
[SPEAKER_00]: My mom has a sort of talent for maybe not a talent.
[SPEAKER_00]: She can't really give a compliment to save her life.
[SPEAKER_00]: So just any observation she has is tensed with a bit of criticism, you know?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so just any time she would talk about my dad, like it wasn't in a way where it ever seemed like she was like looking forward to getting going home and spending time with them, you know?
[SPEAKER_00]: There might be a bit of a presentation in there, but just it was pretty early on that it felt like we were taking sides, you know, and that's where a lot of the confusion came in for me when I think about, like trusting my feelings and trusting other people because it would be, you know, spend a Saturday running errands with my mom and stuff like that and.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like every day she was talking shit about my dad, but, you know, it'd be like, all right, it's us versus him.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we would get home and then she would report back to my dad, like, if I'd miss behaved or something and then I'd get spanked or something.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I just felt like total betrayal, you know, the price sounds so dramatic or silly, but it was just pulled up now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like this guy was public enemy number one and now you're like, you're a turncoat, man, like, how did you do this to me?
[SPEAKER_00]: That was jarring.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes it was definitely like with flash.
[SPEAKER_00]: It just felt like it any minute.
[SPEAKER_00]: It could be like, all right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, like, am I going to do the one thing that pisses my mom off enough to like sick my dad, the executioner on me?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, whatever my mom was going through with my dad, not that she needed stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: All of it at all to her kids, but it was like, it wasn't acknowledge, you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it goes, it just goes back to the trust thing and it's like I couldn't trust my feelings.
[SPEAKER_00]: There was always just a living threat of just like threat of just wait until your dad comes home, you know, and it was just like, oh my god, like five, five, yeah, like I'm fucking dead, you know, and it could be over who knows what it's just it was weird to hear like you're so smart, like you're gifted, you're the best in your class, and then it's like, also your dad's coming home and he's going to like, oh, you know,
[SPEAKER_03]: What was your relationship like with your sister?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is kids, I don't know, I've been thinking about this one recently.
[SPEAKER_00]: So her being 40 years older than me, like developmentally, she wasn't really interested in a lot of the things I was like pretty early on, you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: But like, I think we were kind of, so I loaded off for me, chapter emotionally.
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like we could only really lean on and try to make really desperate times as like a resistance group or something.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't have a lot of memories of us being particularly warm with each other when we were younger.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I got to be a teenager, I feel like, you know, obviously she's not here to explain herself.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I feel like we, all of the resentment and anger we felt towards our parents and just failing to create like a safe and sane environment, we just turned that on each other, you know, just like bitter venom.
[SPEAKER_00]: I wouldn't say we're particularly close, but it didn't really feel like, at least, I didn't feel like I could be emotionally candid enough to talk to her about things.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think we just both witness the same things and maybe it made the same parallel choices of just retreating far and weren't just getting wet, you know, finding some way to escape.
[SPEAKER_03]: Did you guys play like pretty different roles in the family?
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, because it kind of sounds like there was a gold child slash scapegoat going on with you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the role thing is really hard for me to pin down.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I just so in my head is a kid that like my sister's definitely more observant in me.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's definitely the achiever in our family.
[SPEAKER_00]: My parents got divorced.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was around when she was graduating high school.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was kind of sinkers swim for her for a while, but then she started a career and she's doing great.
[SPEAKER_00]: Whereas I floundered, like I think in the divorce, like my parents both kind of took their eye off the ball and I just, again, shredded water through school without much flondering.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if we would call it like learned helplessness maybe, but it was just like, I wasn't taught a lot of things that a kid should have been taught.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it was just like,
[SPEAKER_00]: I felt like I had less means to kind of help myself out now.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think, again, she's not here to speak for herself.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think my sister is kind of envious of feeling like my parents.
[SPEAKER_00]: Loosen up and were less disciplined with me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can see why that would stink for her, but at the same time, and that, like, I had even less structure.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what that meant?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I wasn't like developing as much as I should have at the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then,
[SPEAKER_03]: Did so then when your parents got divorced, did he have custody like partial custody of you guys or did you spend much time with them?
[SPEAKER_00]: No, it was pretty unconventional in that I don't know the exact specifics of the arrangement, but my dad didn't have to pay child support.
[SPEAKER_00]: There was a lot of shuffling around between houses.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, we moved out of our childhood home and my dad stayed there and then several years later, he moved out, we moved back in, but there was no shared custody
[SPEAKER_00]: I think says something because at the time I would have it was never even like brought up, but I would have been vocally opposed to spending any amount of time with my dad.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no shared custody.
[SPEAKER_00]: I saw him.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was actually really frustrating because it was like my mom,
[SPEAKER_00]: But all of this excitement for not having to deal with my dad anymore.
[SPEAKER_00]: But then would be like, you have to go visit your dad for Thanksgiving.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was just like, why the fuck do you get to opt out that I don't do this?
[SPEAKER_00]: Even if I don't want to, it's like, well, you have to.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, yeah, in high school, yeah, I saw him maybe three or four times a year.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then after graduating, I did my best not to talk to him.
[SPEAKER_00]: I went low contact only because it was impossible to go.
[SPEAKER_00]: No contact.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, my mom.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was really frustrating in that she would correspond with my dad like they would email and stuff and Like yeah, Trevor doesn't want to talk to you, but then She would always give my dad my new address or something like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would be getting mail no matter where I live from you know
[SPEAKER_00]: As much as she was on the same page, she was still I feel like sabotaging like that effort to go no contact by just being like we don't want to talk to you, but if you were to talk to him like here's all of his information you know is like mom what the fuck are you doing?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know I think I think the last time I saw him was at my sister's wedding that was that was going on 10 years ago and then I think I've gotten a phone call from a few times but yeah I have it over him
[SPEAKER_00]: No, last time I saw him, I think he might have been dating someone, but I decided to live in the math Midwest, I do not know, or what he is dealing.
[SPEAKER_03]: Did your sister have any relationship with him?
[SPEAKER_00]: No, it's the same with her, I think he wasn't invited to the wedding because, you know, I'm looking at her father, but
[SPEAKER_00]: like when she had her first child like we didn't tell him it was only through gossip that that ever got out.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have that word of just like oh I don't want it to ever be too late I would hate for for him to pass away and it simply still doesn't feel worth it to me and I'm not going to beat myself up for failing that way, you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Or should you be speaking?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's also, yeah it's also not like a one-way street too.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the thing is when my dad would would reach out to me it was sometimes he would be boisterous where he was
[SPEAKER_00]: Drunk because he was alcoholic.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, we forgot to mention it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I guess it's just assumed, you know, I'm so used to it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was like the apologies were so wrote and so basic that it was like he was tired of apologizing before he had ever really Apologize.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, 30s and like coming to terms with the ADHD was that the first time that you ever saw help was at the first time you ever went to therapy or what was your journey with that
[SPEAKER_00]: I knew probably as a teenager, like those feelings of depression, in high school, I felt totally helpless.
[SPEAKER_00]: When I was in my midies, I just remember an instance of being somewhere and just feeling like the cloud of depression, like roll over me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it was like minute by minute, I could feel it overtaking me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Can I remember seeing a therapist maybe was 25 or so seeing a therapist about depression
[SPEAKER_00]: carousel of treatment of just like, oh, let's try like an SSRI, let's try something going to take anxiety, low grade modes of cognitive behavioral therapy and just feeling like it wasn't really doing anything for me, repeat that for for several years and, you know, self-medicated with weed a lot of the time and I remember seeing their pest and talking about ADHD and she seemed pretty adamant that I didn't
[SPEAKER_00]: that I don't remember what she was countering with when I was like pointing at the evidence, but I just kept pointing to the big hole in my life.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's like I'm trying to compliment myself.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like so many people when I was younger, we're just like, you're so smart for your age.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're so adult, which like that's a warning sign.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it was like everyone's timely I'm so smart and can do whatever I want.
[SPEAKER_00]: And yet I have nothing to show for it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It shouldn't be this way.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know like a lot of that depression stem from like there's just a giant hole in the middle of my life
[SPEAKER_00]: from the outside, it just looked like everyone was having a easier go of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, that's how it felt, not saying that was the truth.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when I'm an opportunity to talk, I was up to get a handle on the, on ADHD, because it just felt like it was a lot of the grief I was experienced was like, based on what I felt like a lack of results.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I'm wanting to do all these things and never doing them.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I can really, really, yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: There is a depression that
[SPEAKER_00]: exists apart from those things, but at the same time, I feel like it's, it's also very real to feel like a sense of brief, if you're just like an unlived life.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's just about saying, a lack of a life lived, yep, a hundred years ago.
[SPEAKER_00]: I enjoyed my 20s plenty, but it was like, there's all these things I'm saying that I want to do, and it's not getting done, but the nurse practitioner I saw, she had ADHD.
[SPEAKER_00]: I felt comfortable when she was able to clock it pretty quickly.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's when I started,
[SPEAKER_00]: trying to tackle ADHD and taking it very seriously, which was great at first, but it didn't solve my problem switch.
[SPEAKER_00]: almost hurt even more at that point to be like oh I thought I was saying it's like no it's going to be like this forever.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean everyone's pain is valid and this stuff like manifests in so many different ways.
[SPEAKER_03]: There is like a heavy grief in frustration when this stuff manifests in a way that is in an avoidance way like not the way of like overachieving and perfectionism
[SPEAKER_03]: procrastination and avoidance like the feeling like the of the unlived potential is there's a real heaviness that like I experience with that as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: That word potential I think really messed me up as to kid.
[SPEAKER_00]: I almost wish I had been ignored rather than complimented for things that came naturally so young because when you get that sort of gifted child that is so early you're like all right well all I have to do is do this for the
[SPEAKER_00]: We're good.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was a 180 in that in middle and high school as like teachers and and people caught on to me just being a slacker.
[SPEAKER_00]: So to speak, I internalized a lot of those voices and then as an adult, I feel like.
[SPEAKER_00]: that part that's trying to make up for last time and prove those people wrong, which has just been so damaging.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I'm thankful that it's at least obvious now that it's like those aren't even my ideas, but it's another thing to disarm that particular ball because I still feel like that's where I get my word is like proving like what I've capable of, you know, which I think compromises a lot
[SPEAKER_00]: going into it like with like a results oriented mindset.
[SPEAKER_00]: That mindset is what probably influences a lot of those ADHD symptoms in that lately I've been just been thinking about like the idea of fun.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think this has been spoken about before but just like the child like nature and like mindfulness.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not that I hate the idea of fun but like the word fun has so much too much meaning in it for me and that like it's hard for me to just let go.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when I think about writing and stuff, I'm just like, I wish I could just write for fun.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm still working on developing the tools to like, exist free of expectation.
[SPEAKER_00]: Anytime I sit at a table and like, I'm gonna do this no matter what it is, I have to do it well.
[SPEAKER_00]: I still can't shake those internal voices all those things are saying like you need to perform like you didn't perform so now it's time you have to.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm really struggling with that.
[SPEAKER_00]: So with with IFS I think a lot of it is trying to do untangle and figure out where those voices are coming from and how I can like give my system a sense of you're good.
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to impress anybody.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is safe to just sit here and take as long as you need to do as poorly as you can manage.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, like it's fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: It sucks because we're talking about the demons of like aspirational existence, but like.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm about to say, I can't wait to get to the point where that's what I'm doing, you know?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I get it, I know, then like Cohen or something like that, like sit on the floor and touch the ceiling like your finger, it's impossible.
[SPEAKER_00]: At the end of the day, I do enjoy Athens because it, for the most part, prevents me from looking to like,
[SPEAKER_00]: outside sources of expertise like I just want someone to tell me what the right thing to do is.
[SPEAKER_00]: No shit.
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like you have to trust yourself.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you have to like re-energize that like intuition and gut feeling.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it can't come from anywhere else but inside.
[SPEAKER_03]: Have you had any conversations with your mom or your sister about this stuff?
[SPEAKER_00]: About just like you're healing a little bit with my sister.
[SPEAKER_00]: So
[SPEAKER_00]: My sister works, I'll just stand like the help here in industry, like she continues to go back to school and achieve.
[SPEAKER_00]: And a lot of that has recently evolved psychology.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a poetry.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think we take different views, different approaches, and that I think he is absolutely more academically minded and comes from that perspective.
[SPEAKER_00]: And also just being older than me in general.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know she knows about ACA, I think she has read the big red book without saying too much.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that kind of scared her off, in some sense, which I totally understand.
[SPEAKER_00]: The conversations I have with her usually, it's the same sort of deal where all
[SPEAKER_00]: we can talk for a little bit, but I don't feel any better afterwards.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not that we argue, it's just that her memory supersedes mine, so it ends up feeling like, oh, well, you must be right, because you are older at the time, there's something like that, or your smarter, so maybe you just had two different experiences.
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's what I've done.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's how I arrived at us, being maybe like siloed off from each other, that we just didn't share common existence.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, not that either of us are right or wrong.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I've kind of dialed back talking
[SPEAKER_00]: about it a bit just because it wasn't helpful yeah it didn't really provide resolution if anything it just kind of riled up like my my system I don't know if it did for her are our mom my sister I think had a really really brief conversation with her childhood about my sister's childhood basically a general one of saying like it wasn't great and I think even them
[SPEAKER_00]: really seem to devastate my law.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think brought up the initial defense of just denial, you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: My mom and I just, we've never, like when people ask like, are you close with your family?
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: My mom and I never, for all the time we start and live together, it's like, I have no idea what she's thinking.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no way she has any idea what I'm thinking.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, yeah, do you know much about her upbringing?
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I mean, there's some pretty obvious stuff there and that my mom is the middle of 13 kids.
[SPEAKER_00]: Holy shit.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so I mean, there's some really basic stuff there as far as like you're never going to get it up time with your parent.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're one of 13 children.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, she's my father was one of I think five or six, you know, which is still a ton.
[SPEAKER_00]: And my maternal grandmother died when my mom was in her 20s.
[SPEAKER_00]: My mom simply didn't spend a lot of time with her mother.
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh-huh.
[SPEAKER_00]: Didn't see parenting modeled.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think my mom raised us as if she was raising 13 kids, but there was only two.
[SPEAKER_00]: I recognized my mom did the best she could.
[SPEAKER_00]: It hurts to say that sometimes, because it deals like the self betrayal because I do have those feelings of resentment sometimes.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's a fact.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, she did the best she could, especially with the husband who is not helping in a broader sense.
[SPEAKER_00]: Knowing that she didn't get those resources, she needed, and my mom was had, she had a brother commit suicide when he was in his 20s, and if you heard my mom talk about it, it's like she's talking about the leather or something, it's like almost didn't happen to her.
[SPEAKER_00]: I wouldn't go as far as to say it's like a sort of denial, but it's just so casual.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, I can't understand it, seeing the difference sort of,
[SPEAKER_00]: alliances within all of those siblings and how they all treat each other and go no contact and then gossip about each other.
[SPEAKER_00]: It kind of helps me to understand like my mom's mode of existence in a sense.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just being 34.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm interested in understanding the narrative of my life, but I also feel like it's dangerous to try to over-nair device for something, because it's as much as I want it to be, this to get a happy ending.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just feel like making up a story about yourself and then believing it can be dangerous.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just don't know what I would tell my mom, you know?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I don't know what I would want.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right now, I'm operating with the belief that she,
[SPEAKER_00]: can't change, and so I'm not going to really dwell on what I would want out of that relationship.
[SPEAKER_00]: That might be like self-defeating.
[SPEAKER_00]: The idea of me going to her and saying, hey, just so you know, I felt abandoned from the age of nine onwards.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just don't imagine that I would get much relief from that and I don't just whatever she would say I don't think it would be enough for me to feel a sense of peace.
[SPEAKER_00]: You helped me out with this once in that, you know, like it is kind of a fantasy to think that one conversation would change everything, but it to be honest, being near my mom is usually there are some like low greed, sorry, low grade narcissistic tendencies there.
[SPEAKER_00]: And
[SPEAKER_00]: you know what therapists have been like oh what would you say to your mom it's like I can't picture it because when I talk to my mom it's her talking to me for an hour and a half and then she asks me how things are going at work you know so it's hard to conceptualize myself it's like a human being first off when I'm around her so then to bring more agency into it it's just like that's a whole lot of work for what I think is just going to be more pain
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, if and when we were to have these conversations, it really has to be coming from a place of, I'm saying this because I have to say this for me.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't give a shit what the response is, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And that doesn't mean that that's something that we have to do, but it really needs to be coming from a place of, this is something that I need to say for me.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not saying that that's what's necessary, but that's really what it needs to be about.
[SPEAKER_03]: I have to say this for me because this is something that I need to say for myself.
[SPEAKER_00]: And whatever they say back really doesn't matter your spot on because I think that speaks definitely to my situation of I don't have much to say right now and maybe that'll change, but it's just like, or maybe it won't, you know what I mean exactly right now, but I've kind of traced that back it would have to be for me and maybe further down the road, I'll be like, this is what's fucking me or maybe not, you know, maybe it's just it's the idea.
[SPEAKER_00]: Our family is so, like, plated in some sense of just not really acknowledging things.
[SPEAKER_00]: I saw, like, the most violent instance would be, my dad is driving this drum on vacation, and I'm, like, firsting into tears because it's not because I don't feel safe.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, when I did that, and the car got pulled over, like, I just felt guilty.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, no one told me it was going to be okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Or something like that, or that I hadn't done something wrong.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was, like,
[SPEAKER_00]: I was the whistleblower and there was no, there was no sort of conversation after that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so this sort of feels like an echo of that and that I'm going to speak my mind and I'm going to feel guilty and nothing is going to change.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not trying to predict the future, but I think also too, we can say those words and like have those conversations without actually saying it to our parents as well, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like in parts work, we can do it through letter writing, you know, it also doesn't have to be through an actual conversation as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, letter writing thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: I did want for my father that was helpful for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now a lot of it is like, oh, I have this fear of being a bad brother or bad son.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, you know what, I don't know that that's what they think of me when I don't talk to them often.
[SPEAKER_00]: If it really bothered them, they could tell me I don't need to
[SPEAKER_00]: internalize yeah it's like fine if we need to have these shallow conversations where you tell me what you want for Christmas that I get it for you and we talk for 20 minutes and that's what's working right now I don't need to beat myself about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm happy you asked me to do this because it kind of turns this notion on its head that I have like recently and starting to date again like for the longest time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh let's talk about that!
[SPEAKER_00]: oh yeah we can talk about dating okay we never got into this so what has been like what is your ML like what is your track record there well okay what's your type of style avoidant i'm assuming i would say avoidant i was thinking about it with like cats this morning it's like the metaphor of like in my early 20s i would act like i really wanted to be in a relationship it's like when a cat falls at your door to i am to get in and then they walk around for five minutes and then
[SPEAKER_00]: They live the door to get out.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's how it was with the relationships like in my 20s I would seem like I wanted to date Get into a relationship with a woman get into it start to freak out and then just go totally cold until they were like All right, you piece of shit.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for wasting my time.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know
[SPEAKER_00]: women would caulk it like you have so many walls put up do like what is your deal and at the time I was like I don't know what you're talking about.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just me, you know like if you'd say that but that's in the back of my mind.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like I don't see the big deal.
[SPEAKER_00]: It took a pretty catastrophic relationship in my mid 20s where I just wasn't an adult like where I had not developed as far as
[SPEAKER_00]: being so distant, purposefully, and then accidentally.
[SPEAKER_00]: So a thing like being here today, it was like, I don't deserve to be on a shit show Saturday.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not like, I'm not hard enough alone.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not healed or whatever, but it's no.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, that's why we never are.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's like, it's like swaps you right in the face, like it's called a shit show.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like no one's assuming that shit show Trevor is someone who's like magna cum laude.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's really helped me to be like, no, you're never going to be 100% ready or perfect.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like give up.
[SPEAKER_03]: Mother of mine, and I run this shit.
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so with dating, it was the same thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: this last time I hopped on that app which I loved, you know, fun times yeah tell me about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah my time with the shit show this time around I'm just gonna be honest about where I'm at with no expectations like finding the balance of being candid not being overbearing.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've just been like this is where I am, you know, I mean that sounds so obvious.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I think I was just really afraid when I was younger of just like, oh, if they find out this thing, they're going to see it.
[SPEAKER_00]: They'll see does it run my back.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just like a monster dressed up as a dude, you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it has been awesome so far.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is something that's really casual.
[SPEAKER_00]: That every time I'm honest about something, it's like,
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's not a big deal.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, me too.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for telling.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, oh, like sea trevvers, you don't have to be the best at everything to get love from someone else.
[SPEAKER_00]: That following me for the longest time, just those voices that just like you can't let anyone see the quote unquote ugly human side of you, because if they do, they're not going to like what they see, you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it turns out, that's a crazy way to say.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and also very common.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it's a set of men on the ship.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we can all treat so many other people kindly.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's like once it gets to ourselves, it's like, yeah, but I don't deserve that sort of kind of things like I'll get that sort of kindness when I'm like fixed.
[SPEAKER_03]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_03]: When I'm, yeah, exactly when I've arrived.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: So how is dating and going?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's good like two months into it and it's their bigger talks that need to happen, but I think just as a matter as an exercise of relating to someone else, it has been so much fun for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it makes me, it's forcing me to accept confidence and to understand how I regard myself, like body image, beyond that, I cannot trust my own brain when it comes to self-presult.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll always be a harsher critic.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's just no getting around that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Or maybe right now, there's not.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when other people are like, oh, I like this about you.
[SPEAKER_00]: That National Reflects you be like, no, no.
[SPEAKER_03]: Hey, Donald.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, it's just like, hey, why am I fighting this?
[SPEAKER_00]: Why am I uncomfortable with this?
[SPEAKER_00]: Why do I have to believe this like nasty mean part of myself and not this kind part of another person?
[SPEAKER_00]: What's what's with that?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so this has been really nice and just being like, okay, you're going to take a compliment Trevor and you're going to like it like enough.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's honestly been really, because I think part of recovering alone is like,
[SPEAKER_00]: consciously you can want to do it.
[SPEAKER_00]: But if you're doing it by yourself, you're still working from a I think a compromised space, you know?
[SPEAKER_00]: So it really does take like, I don't know, it's like perspective to like, kind of put you on the right path.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's so a lot of me and my natural tendencies to isolate things like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like this has been like awesome in sort of correcting those tendencies to just trust my first and worst opinion of myself.
[SPEAKER_00]: So let's see how it goes.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't think that would
[SPEAKER_00]: things to one at the end of 2025.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's all new to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's yes, a grasp of ACA and stuff like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: She listened to an audiobook about attachment.
[SPEAKER_00]: So like that should tell you enough about work.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's probably, you know, piloting.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have a shared language in that, sir.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't feel like I have to give her a million caveats every time I see or something like that.
[SPEAKER_03]: And love it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, let's hear three things that you like about yourself.
[SPEAKER_00]: One thing I like about myself.
[SPEAKER_00]: My taste.
[SPEAKER_00]: not that they're great, but they're definitely mine.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, we should show merch for that.
[SPEAKER_03]: My taste, not that they're great, but they're mine.
[SPEAKER_00]: What have you said?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: What have you said my taste buds?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like you literally met your taste buds?
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I just mean the sense of just like, I know what you mean.
[SPEAKER_00]: I do like myself a sense of humor.
[SPEAKER_00]: People who stick around with me,
[SPEAKER_00]: mentioned my sense of humor and it I think used the comfort of a place intense self deprecation but now we're kind of widening up in that sense you know.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah you can slip into that my brand is the motivational roasting.
[SPEAKER_00]: My third thing I think is like the sense of integrity of moving on from people pleasing into a sense of justice and fairness
[SPEAKER_00]: I've got plenty I could put on there.
[SPEAKER_00]: This year, I want to work on art with no expectations.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's keep it simple.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, awesome.
[SPEAKER_03]: This was great.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: This has been an awesome start of the 26th for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I did not.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was what a great way to set up a year.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know?
[SPEAKER_00]: I really appreciate it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: I appreciate you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I regret not speaking more in the interview about this shit show
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, is someone new to it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I did ACA here in St. George for a while, but it felt like ACA was like an elected for people in A.
[SPEAKER_00]: A.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's nothing against people in A.
[SPEAKER_00]: A.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it just felt like it was extra credit, you know?
[SPEAKER_00]: And it just made me uncomfortable.
[SPEAKER_00]: the end of the day.
[SPEAKER_00]: The show just like comes so like naturally to me, you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not that I feel like there's a lack of dudes there, but it's just like, there's less guys than women, you know.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, we got solid dudes in there.
[SPEAKER_00]: We really do.
[SPEAKER_03]: We really do.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're blessed with that.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like damn it.
[SPEAKER_00]: We need more nerds.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like shit show nerds.
[SPEAKER_00]: Where are you?
[SPEAKER_00]: Come out of the woodwork,
[SPEAKER_00]: They're around, but yeah, it's been like one of the best things in 2020.
[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm, it was joy.
[SPEAKER_00]: The shit show, for sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm, awesome.