[SPEAKER_01]: Imagine trying to protect the sanctity of Phoenix.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey everyone, this is Leon from Prologue Projects.
[SPEAKER_01]: In the previous episode of Five to Four, Peter, Reannon, and Michael covered the tumultuous lead up to the Voting Rights Act of 1965.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you haven't listened to that yet, go back and check it out before you continue.
[SPEAKER_01]: In this episode, you're going to hear about how key provisions of the Voting Rights Act served to protect minority voters.
[SPEAKER_01]: And how, over the coming decades, a newly rebranded conservative movement got at the act, one Supreme Court case at a time.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is 5-4, a podcast about how much the Supreme Court sucks.
[SPEAKER_05]: Welcome to Five to Four, where we dissect and analyze the Supreme Court cases that have dismissed our civil liberties, like me being dismissed from jury duty.
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm Peter, I'm here with the reanning.
[SPEAKER_05]: Hello.
[SPEAKER_04]: And Michael, shouldn't you be trying to get on the jury so you can nullify?
[SPEAKER_05]: I've got a vacation coming up first tomorrow.
[SPEAKER_05]: Second of all, it's all I'm doing is answering every question, truthfully.
[SPEAKER_05]: If you want to put...
[SPEAKER_05]: a Supreme Court podcaster on your jury that is your prerogative.
[SPEAKER_05]: I've got a couple days of jury duty and today I was outside of a courtroom.
[SPEAKER_05]: I was just overhearing this girl in college, talk to someone else.
[SPEAKER_05]: and the discussion was a debate about whether the sounds coming from the elevator were construction were just allowed elevator.
[SPEAKER_05]: And what I tell you that it was the most obvious construction sounds, I like, you could hear men shouting and jack hammers.
[SPEAKER_05]: And she like for for five to ten minutes every now and then she'd be like, maybe it is an elevator and then she'll go back and be like, maybe it maybe it maybe it is just construction.
[SPEAKER_02]: Meanwhile, somewhere a law professor is typing right now.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like the jury system in American law is flawed.
[SPEAKER_04]: But necessary as a last refuge against tyranny and you know what they're right.
[SPEAKER_02]: I want her on a church She should be on a jury and she should be the foreman and I hope you're selected on the jury as well Peter and she'll be your foreman
[SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[SPEAKER_05]: All right, folks.
[SPEAKER_05]: This is the second and final part of our series on the rise and fall of the Voting Rights Act.
[SPEAKER_05]: In the first episode, we traced the century long struggle for voting rights and the reactionary forces, especially in the south, that stood in the way it every turn.
[SPEAKER_05]: We talked about the passing of the Voting Rights Act in 1965 and now we're going to talk about the little right wing perverts who have spent the last 60 years trying to whittle away at it.
[SPEAKER_05]: There's something we've talked about many times on this show, but it's worth circling back to after the civil rights movement and the upheaval of the 50s and 60s generally.
[SPEAKER_05]: The conservative political and legal movements are sort of a drift.
[SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[SPEAKER_05]: The segregationists are defeated.
[SPEAKER_05]: The Southern Democrats coalition is broken.
[SPEAKER_05]: Conservatives are looking for a rebrands, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: But they maintain a lot of the same goals, including limiting the franchise.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I think there's an important story to be told here in this period.
[SPEAKER_04]: You have conservative sort of engaging in what's called white flight, which is white people leaving urban cores, mixed race neighborhoods and going to all white suburbs.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I think it's important because it both sort of previews the transformation of the conservative political strategy in the coming decades and also shows how conservatives laid the groundwork for a response to the voting rights act.
[SPEAKER_04]: to recreate segregation, recreate political subjugation by geographically separating themselves from minorities.
[SPEAKER_04]: When you move out of the urban core, all of a sudden, you don't have access to all the public parks, and so maybe you're not so keen to see them funded anymore, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: You're not using those public school systems anymore, so maybe you don't want those being paid with your tax dollars.
[SPEAKER_04]: Maybe you want that.
[SPEAKER_04]: public schools to be paid by, I don't know, local property taxes, for example.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so there's a whole bundle of political and policy issues that go with white flight, but it's an interesting story and it's worth getting into the details a little bit on because it does bear on the Voting Rights Act and especially on black Americans' ability to get representation for themselves, even today.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it'll tell us a
[SPEAKER_04]: So early on, the initial reaction in the early 50s to the beginning of de-segregation was very violent reactionary.
[SPEAKER_04]: These clan-like groups, or at times the clan itself, bombing homes, beating, attacking, maybe even killing.
[SPEAKER_04]: Black people who had the temarity to buy a house in a majority or all white neighborhood.
[SPEAKER_04]: And what Peter was just referencing was as the decade wears on, this becomes a political loser in a way.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like the nation writ large and moderates.
[SPEAKER_04]: are repulsed by this violence.
[SPEAKER_04]: They don't like it.
[SPEAKER_04]: It makes segregationists sort of a political pariahs.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so there's a movement to rebrand into something more respectable.
[SPEAKER_04]: Instead of using racial slurs and talking about how you are for white supremacy, there are the founding of community groups in neighborhood groups.
[SPEAKER_04]: That sort of presides
[SPEAKER_04]: homeowners associations and racial confidence and things like that, but that are dedicated to maintaining the character of a neighborhood.
[SPEAKER_04]: These organizations start developing a language that sounds very familiar today, a language around the need for strong property rights, that property owners should have the right to do what they want with their property.
[SPEAKER_04]: that strong parental rights towards their kids education.
[SPEAKER_04]: Hey, I should be able to send my kid to the school.
[SPEAKER_04]: I want to send them to, so they can be surrounded by the people I want them to be surrounded by.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now, of course, I'm not suggesting that this meant the violence, you know, just went away.
[SPEAKER_04]: It did not.
[SPEAKER_04]: There's an interesting anecdote in this book I was reading, a white flight by Kevin Cruz, the historian, where later in the 50s, one of these organizations that was far more respectable was trying to essentially deintegrate a neighborhood, re-segregate a neighborhood in a respectable way by pulling a bunch of money and buying back all the houses from black people.
[SPEAKER_04]: problem solved will just the white people will just buy up all the black houses again and then it'll be an all-white neighborhood again and some black people didn't want to sell and when they were being in Transigent they bombed one of the houses you know and it's like even in their strongest efforts to not be like just violent racist pieces of shit right
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that is what they are, yeah, they couldn't help themselves, which I think gets to this tension between like their public facing language and the private feelings of the groups.
[SPEAKER_04]: But what's interesting about this story of resisting integration in the urban centers is that eventually led to the flight to the suburbs.
[SPEAKER_04]: Originally, they were relying on this sort of community solidarity of white people, but the community continually let them down.
[SPEAKER_04]: white homeowners on the edges of the all white neighborhoods, sort of hated being the buffer between black neighborhoods and the newly white centers of the all white neighborhoods.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so what would happen is they would sell their houses to black people at a premium because, you know, they could.
[SPEAKER_04]: and that would shrink the size of the all white neighborhood.
[SPEAKER_04]: And this led to, I think, and Cruz argues this explicitly in the book.
[SPEAKER_04]: Essentially, the end of community as an important value in the reactionary movement in the rise of individualism, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like the repeated failure of community-based organizations to protect white interests,
[SPEAKER_04]: led to the embrace of this rugged individual every man firm self ideology that we still see today.
[SPEAKER_04]: And when you pair it with robust property rights, robust parental rights, and a language around individual freedoms, what you see is housing segregation, the politics of housing segregation, for saging the modern conservative movement, right, and it's language.
[SPEAKER_04]: In a practical sense,
[SPEAKER_04]: by fleeing to the suburbs and leaving the inner city majority racial minorities, it also created the conditions for racial jerrymandering for the subjugation of minorities by starving them of tax dollars and services.
[SPEAKER_04]: and making them vulnerable to red lining and things like that.
[SPEAKER_04]: So this served the broader, it ended up serving the broader political project of reinstituting a racial caste system, sort of inadvertently, at least at first, but this is an important thing to understand about how the modern conservative movement was born.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think that's really right and I think it's right to put this all in context because what we talked about last episode is a world in which the voting rights act, the civil rights act didn't exist a world in which the civil rights movement.
[SPEAKER_02]: had not yet happened and then what the civil rights movement sort of one for American society and then immediately afterwards you see the social movement, the political developments that are about where the conservative movement goes from there to try and reinstitute segregation reinstitute disenfranchisement, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And so socially you see in white flight
[SPEAKER_02]: a sort of conservative momentum building and figuring itself out ideologically in the law as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: In 1980, 15 years after the Voting Rights Act is passed,
[SPEAKER_02]: There is a Supreme Court case called Mobile V Bolden.
[SPEAKER_02]: We have done an episode on this case, definitely encourage people to go back and listen to this episode.
[SPEAKER_02]: But what you see in Mobile V Bolden is a holding that really opposes how the voting rights act had been interpreted up until that point.
[SPEAKER_02]: So jumping into the case, this is a challenge by a class of black voters in Mobile, Alabama.
[SPEAKER_02]: a challenge to the at-large voting scheme for city elections in mobile under, of course, section two of the voting rights act.
[SPEAKER_02]: They are taking the voting rights act.
[SPEAKER_02]: They are saying this at-large voting scheme in mobile violates the voting rights act.
[SPEAKER_02]: And just as a quick refresh, right at-large voting means that all of the voters in this case in mobile,
[SPEAKER_02]: voted for all three of their city council members, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So council members are not running in separate districts, meaning that the majority voting block in this case white people decide who runs the city, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And the minority voting block black people in mobile have their votes.
[SPEAKER_02]: utterly diluted, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: The white majority votes for all three city reps every election cycle, and it's important to also situate even this specific cities voting scheme, this at large voting scheme, in the history that predated the Voting Rights Act in order to start analyzing like how conservatives started to deal with this post-voting rights act, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: At large voting and city elections was instituted in Mobile in 1911.
[SPEAKER_02]: We just did a whole episode about what the South did during Jim Crow to keep black people de facto disenfranchised.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you can imagine why that would be the case in Mobile, why they implemented at large voting, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: and just a decade before that, Alabama held a constitutional convention in which they rewrote their constitution, just like we talked about in many cases in the last episode, in which the chairman of that constitutional convention opened the proceedings by saying that their goal was to quote, establish white supremacy in this state.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's in this time period that the city of
[SPEAKER_02]: in this Supreme Court case.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, what you get in the holding of Mobile versus Bolden is a conservative plurality saying, yeah, we can see that the effect of the at-large voting scheme in Mobile has discriminatory effect.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, yeah, the effect is,
[SPEAKER_02]: that the black vote is getting diluted here.
[SPEAKER_02]: We can see that, but that's just the effect.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the Voting Rights Act doesn't say you have to make sure that discrimination doesn't happen in voting.
[SPEAKER_02]: The Voting Rights Act says, you can't mean for discrimination to happen in voting.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's no discriminatory intent here.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that large voting scheme wasn't put in place with discriminatory purpose.
[SPEAKER_02]: Of course, this is bullshit in this specific instance, we just talked about the history, but it's also a way you see in Mobile B, Bolden in 1980, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: It is a way to insert a lot of room for racism and discrimination.
[SPEAKER_02]: into the legal world where now all of the sudden this bullshit is passing muster actually.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, this doesn't violate the Voting Rights Act.
[SPEAKER_02]: Even those section two of the Voting Rights Act says, basically, no voting practice or procedure can deny or abridge the right of any citizen of the United States to vote on account of race or color.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what the Voting Rights Act says.
[SPEAKER_02]: 15 years later is saying, well, they have to really mean to be racist for it to be something that abridges the rights of the US citizens to vote.
[SPEAKER_05]: This touches on something we talked about in the first episode, which is that
[SPEAKER_05]: The Voting Rights Act really recognized that there were bad actors, especially in the South, right, and that they needed to be reigned in.
[SPEAKER_05]: The Supreme Court at the time said the same thing, basically recognized when the Voting Rights Act was challenged in the 60s, that there were southern states that very consciously were evading their obligations under the 15th Amendment to not discriminate in voting.
[SPEAKER_05]: But in the early 70s, conservatives take control of the court,
[SPEAKER_05]: And you get this sort of like reframing, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: Well, it's not really about whether the results or discriminatory, it's about the intent.
[SPEAKER_05]: And you can't prove it the intent with discriminatory, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: Now we've extended good faith to these other states, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they're presumed to not be operating in a racist way.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so like what you see in this case is like that the Supreme Court has played a central role
[SPEAKER_02]: starting pretty quickly after the voting rights act is passed right in dismantling the voting rights act itself what you see is an ascendant conservative legal movement at this time coalescing in a major way on voting rights and that is to say opposing voting rights right like opposing an expansive approach to voting rights and really like actually restricting those prophylactic functions of the voting rights act which are so important to the voting rights act.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: That shake-up really triggers a fight in Congress coming out of Mobile V-Bolden.
[SPEAKER_05]: Let's talk about that a little bit because I think what happens in Congress and the White House shortly after that case is really emblematic.
[SPEAKER_05]: So one element of the Voting Rights Act is that certain provisions within it would expire after a few years.
[SPEAKER_05]: So you had the pre-clearance provisions, which said that the southern states had to get approval from the federal government before they changed their voting rules.
[SPEAKER_05]: Those provisions were initially set to expire after like five years, and then what happened is they would expire or be about to expire and then get extended by Congress a few more years, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: So they get extended a few times.
[SPEAKER_05]: And then in 1982, when the provisions are set to expire again, there's a big legislative fight.
[SPEAKER_05]: What do we want to do with the voting rights act at this point?
[SPEAKER_05]: A lot of people in Congress want to amend the law so that it undoes what the Supreme Court held in Mobile V. Bolden.
[SPEAKER_02]: right in mobile Supreme Court comes in and says, well, the voting rights act requires discriminatory intent that lawmakers intended to be discriminatory in changing their voting policies.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so what this amendment would do, Congress would amend the voting rights act itself such that discrimination in voting could be judged by that discriminatory impact rather than
[SPEAKER_02]: like discriminatory intent is so hard to prove.
[SPEAKER_02]: So what Congress would be doing in this amendment is allowing for plaintiffs, allowing for voters to say, no, it had discriminatory impact, which is easier to show and that would be a violation of the voting rights act.
[SPEAKER_02]: Instead of this higher standard that the Supreme Court artificially implemented.
[SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[SPEAKER_05]: And so behind the scenes, attorneys and Reagan's Justice Department are very opposed to this.
[SPEAKER_05]: They liked the holding in Mobile B. Bolden.
[SPEAKER_05]: They liked that it made it harder to sue for discrimination and voting.
[SPEAKER_05]: And they are led in large part by a young John Roberts, who was a special assistant to the Attorney General at the time.
[SPEAKER_05]: Well, well, well, well.
[SPEAKER_05]: John Roberts at this time is
[SPEAKER_05]: He gives the attorney general talking points to try to bring the White House to their side.
[SPEAKER_05]: He's engaging in PR.
[SPEAKER_05]: He helps draft op-eds opposing the amendment that would go into major papers.
[SPEAKER_05]: He's doing political strategizing.
[SPEAKER_05]: He's talking about whether senators might be movable on the issue.
[SPEAKER_05]: His arguments are being circulated to Republican senators.
[SPEAKER_02]: Who does he write to at the time where he's like he's basically like it is such an exciting time to be in government right now because so much is up in the air.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, he's like, I remember that but I don't remember who he's talking to.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I don't.
[SPEAKER_05]: At the time, he's like 26, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, he's just this young little creep ready to attack voting rights.
[SPEAKER_05]: He wrote this about the amendment that would functionally reverse mobile the Bolden.
[SPEAKER_05]: This would make challenges to a broad range of voting practices much easier and give courts.
[SPEAKER_05]: far broader license to interfere with voting practices across the country.
[SPEAKER_05]: In particular, such widely accepted practices as at large voting would be subject to attack, since it is fairly easy to demonstrate that such practices have the effect of diluting black voting strength.
[SPEAKER_05]: He's like, they might get rid of all the voter dilution tactics that we know and love if this amendment passes.
[SPEAKER_05]: So, I think Robert himself, a very sort of interesting figure here because again, he's like 26, 27.
[SPEAKER_05]: Most of his life has been under the regime of the voter rights act.
[SPEAKER_05]: Not just that though, he is probably the first generation of conservative to not come from the segregationist swap, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: And in the 60s, you had actual Congress people talking about the Voting Rights Act causing the, quote, racial, mongrelization of the United States, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: That is the sort of language we were seeing publicly in the 1960s.
[SPEAKER_05]: Now we're almost 20 years later, John Roberts, he's coming out of the new school of conservative thought, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: They don't talk about it like that.
[SPEAKER_05]: They talk about federal interference with tried and true state voting practices, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: So at this time, the Reagan White House
[SPEAKER_05]: is a little bit cagey.
[SPEAKER_05]: They're facing heat because they were trying to maintain the tax exam status of segregated private schools.
[SPEAKER_05]: And so they didn't want to stick out their neck further on racialized issues, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: So at first they don't take a public position.
[SPEAKER_05]: Then they officially come out on Roberts's side, saying that they oppose these amendments.
[SPEAKER_05]: Ultimately,
[SPEAKER_05]: There is a compromise, Bob Dole proposes of the compromise, and it says that a violation would occur if based on the totality of the circumstances, minority voters demonstrate that they have, quote, less opportunity than other members of the electorate to participate in the political process and to elect representatives of their choice.
[SPEAKER_05]: This is a compromise because it expressly disclamed proportional voting.
[SPEAKER_05]: The idea that you were sort of legally entitled to a specific proportion of the representative body.
[SPEAKER_04]: If black voters have 30% of the population, they should get roughly 30% of the political representation.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[SPEAKER_04]: It disclamed that idea.
[SPEAKER_05]: Right, Roberts, by the way, still doesn't like the compromise, the D.O.J.
[SPEAKER_05]: The little crazy D.O.J.
[SPEAKER_05]: lawyers do not like the compromise and Reagan accepts it again, because Reagan, you know, always in hot water with other races, you know, you know.
[SPEAKER_05]: Of course.
[SPEAKER_05]: But this is where Robert's cut his teeth, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: This is where he sort of establishes himself.
[SPEAKER_05]: And it's an indication of the evolution of the conservative legal and political movements, because you have this move from the express racism of the 60s that the Southern Democrats were putting into the public record when they were talking about the voting rights act.
[SPEAKER_05]: Now there's a whole new generation with a whole new vocabulary, even if the goals are largely the same.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that's right.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think, you know, as a Supreme Court podcast, we focused last episode on the Supreme Court cases that, you know, helped dismantle lead to the end of reconstruction, helped to green light support Jim Crow policies and certainly all kinds of disenfranchisement over the years.
[SPEAKER_02]: And in this episode, we also want to highlight the Supreme
[SPEAKER_02]: in the dismantling now of the Voting Rights Act, but in that story, really make sure that we highlight two individuals, especially, who have been central to this process within the Supreme Court, and that's John Roberts, as Peter just talked about before he's even on the Supreme Court, and another is William Ruanquist.
[SPEAKER_02]: John Roberts clicked for William Ruanquist before he started working
[SPEAKER_02]: William Rennquist, of course we've done an episode on him as well, noted segregationist.
[SPEAKER_02]: This man, before he ever touched the Supreme Court, was a violently and aggressively and outspokenly racist individual.
[SPEAKER_02]: He wrote a memo as a law clerk in support of the holding and plus TV Ferguson, a Supreme Court case.
[SPEAKER_02]: We talked about last episode.
[SPEAKER_02]: And as a lawyer on the record, many people talked about it, many people witnessed this, many people were a part of it.
[SPEAKER_02]: In the mid 1960s, was part of Operation Eagle Eye, a well-financed operation explicitly backed by the RNC at the time with the goal
[SPEAKER_02]: and suppressing meaning literally, meaning literal voter intimidation, meaning literally walking up to people to minority voters coming to the polls and demanding that they've read a copy of the U.S. Constitution out loud, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Taking pictures of people as they scream at them and ask them whether or not they speak English.
[SPEAKER_02]: distributing, you know, really deterrent, aggressively deterrent paraphernalia like deceptive mailers indicating that, you know, a voter who had committed a traffic violation would be arrested if they showed up to the polls, encouraging minority voters to write in Dr. King's name for president.
[SPEAKER_02]: And as early as 1958, William Rengkwist is in the role of Paul Watcher in Arizona, where he's from,
[SPEAKER_02]: directly and personally involved in challenging voters at the polls, challenging that they are American, asking if they could pass a literary test.
[SPEAKER_02]: It goes on and on and on, the disgusting racism in this man, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: To say nothing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Again, noted segregationist, we mean literally, he's writing to local school board officials in open opposition to desegregation, to integration in public schools in the Phoenix area.
[SPEAKER_04]: Imagine trying to protect the sanctity of Phoenix.
[SPEAKER_04]: anti-Jew, racial covenants on it, like, yeah, all he was a supreme.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, he can't see the the house had, uh, at a covenant in the contracts and couldn't sell it to a Jewish person.
[SPEAKER_04]: And those while he was a justice and then every such a piece of shit.
[SPEAKER_05]: And then everyone is like, these are dishes, just boiler plate.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, and he did.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and he also says things throughout his career on stuff like this that he's just a property rights absolutist this goes back to what you were saying Michael about this this this story of white flight right and how racism is is couched in different arguments about different kinds of individual freedoms right you're right to own property in the way you want you're right to parent in the way you want on and on and on right William Rink West you know there's evidence that he opposed a city ordinance and Phoenix and
[SPEAKER_02]: in 64, that prohibited racial discrimination in public places like theaters.
[SPEAKER_02]: He wants theaters and restaurants to be segregated in the 60s.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is a man who became the Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: We can go on and on for decades, for decades, well-respected, called a centrist, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: called a reliable, a reliable centrist if maybe he leaned conservative, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, you know, bringing it back, if this was this man's history on the books, open people knew about this.
[SPEAKER_02]: He was outspoken and public, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: for this person to have the ascendance that he did the success that he did professionally and in his career and in shaping Supreme Court jurisprudence for decades.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think I want to make sure that actually the takeaway here is not just that this story and the dismantling of voting rights and black disenfranchisement in general in the United States is about
[SPEAKER_02]: that William Rhinquist is an individual piece of shit racist guy.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's not actually what it's about, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: But in truth, I think, what we're highlighting and the story that we're telling is that if these guys William Rhinquists, John Roberts, the rest of them, who had these views,
[SPEAKER_02]: have been so successful, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And semantically packaging those views in a certain way to all the way up the legal system in the United States to put these views into law.
[SPEAKER_02]: You see a system then being built brick by brick in which having these views, putting forth these arguments, developing
[SPEAKER_02]: is being rewarded and the system to dismantle voting rights to re-institute a segregated society, to re-institute racial hierarchy is being built.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and so while Rinkwist is the chief justice, you know, the states are at work, they are trying to come up with clever new ways to discriminate in voting and they are being shot down by the DOJ.
[SPEAKER_04]: They're actually some numbers on this, you know, between 1982 and 2006 about 24 or 25 years.
[SPEAKER_04]: The DOJ rejected over 700 proposed voting changes by the states.
[SPEAKER_04]: There was a further 100 private actions done under preclearance, you know, private plaintiffs bringing suit.
[SPEAKER_04]: And on top of that, another 800 cases where the DOJ basically sent comments back to the states, saying they needed to modify their changes, which led to either modifications or withdrawals.
[SPEAKER_04]: So if you're, if you're counting, that's over 1600 proposed changes that had a discriminatory intent or effect invoting over 24 years, which catches out to when you do the math,
[SPEAKER_04]: for 25 years.
[SPEAKER_05]: And it goes to show why you need the system.
[SPEAKER_05]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[SPEAKER_05]: If you don't have this pre-clearant system where they need to get approval, then each one of those would need to be challenged in court.
[SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, it's just impossible.
[SPEAKER_05]: You can't.
[SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[SPEAKER_05]: You can't possibly play whack them all forever with this bullshit.
[SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: It goes to show why Shelby County sued, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like they're fucking done with it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like they don't want to do this shit anymore, you know?
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: Maybe that's worth highlighting again the preclearance idea that you need approval from the federal government before you change your voting rules.
[SPEAKER_05]: That only applied to specific jurisdictions that had specific histories of discrimination.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's that's right.
[SPEAKER_04]: Initially it was limited to just seven southern states.
[SPEAKER_04]: It eventually because of the formula and because of new data was expanded, but because it was so focused on specific jurisdictions and based on histories and things like that, it's never been a permanent provision, like the pre-clearance idea is permanent, but who is subject to it and who is not what the formula is?
[SPEAKER_04]: It hasn't been permanent and so originally it was just for five years and then it was reauthorized.
[SPEAKER_04]: As Peter said, it had to be reauthorized several times and modified along the way in the mid-70s.
[SPEAKER_04]: Other reauthorization also expanded it to cover language minorities, and I mentioned this only because it became a big flash point in the 2006 reauthorization fight.
[SPEAKER_04]: So the last time it was authorized in 1982, it was reauthorized for 25 years, which meant it was due to expire in 2007.
[SPEAKER_04]: now in 2006 lawmakers are looking at it and this is an interesting moment because there's a Republican president, Republicans control both houses of Congress.
[SPEAKER_04]: Black voters have voted for Republicans in any significant number for years.
[SPEAKER_05]: And by the way, I think it's worth drilling down on this briefly.
[SPEAKER_05]: When the 1982 reauthorization happens, Republicans don't realize how badly they've lost the black vote.
[SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[SPEAKER_05]: The divisions aren't quite as clear as they are right now.
[SPEAKER_05]: They also aren't as reliant in general on like a very specific subset of white voters.
[SPEAKER_05]: I think everyone sort of knows now that the last like 30, 40 years have seen like the so-called white working class shift over to the
[SPEAKER_05]: That stuff hasn't really happened yet, very different worlds.
[SPEAKER_05]: But by 2006, it has started to happen.
[SPEAKER_05]: We've seen these trends, and so Republican sort of are beginning to understand themselves a little more as a way to identity party.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so in some sense, this was like a very bad moment for for reauthorization to come up.
[SPEAKER_04]: But in other ways, it was actually, I think, quite good.
[SPEAKER_04]: George W Bush was looking at the end of his second term and hoping for some legacy defining capstone legislation at the same time.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is being debated.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's right after Katrina.
[SPEAKER_05]: He's like, yeah, exactly.
[SPEAKER_04]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm looking more as going terrible and dumbass, but they were also debating big bipartisan immigration reform, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: It was like these two things they had made major gains with Latinos between the 2000 and 2004 elections and we're hoping to maybe solidify them.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so you can see maybe some of that going on here with the VRA stuff as well and maybe hoping to soften the black
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, these are not woke people, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: These were Gentile, Patricia, and Wospi, Republicans of an old school variety that are very disempowered in the current party who were, you know, I'm sure privately racist, sometimes publicly racist, but also just sort of operators who were looking for an advantage for their party wherever they could get it.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, there was some reason to think that maybe this is an actual opportune moment.
[SPEAKER_04]: The head of the Judiciary Committee in the House of Representatives, Sensor Brenner.
[SPEAKER_04]: He is a Republican who had been in the House back in 82 for the reauthorization.
[SPEAKER_04]: And you can look at a statement back then.
[SPEAKER_04]: He had been skeptical of Section 5 at the time.
[SPEAKER_04]: He had heard testimony on it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Become convinced of its continued relevance and its continued need.
[SPEAKER_04]: and was so proud to have voted for it that he kept a copy of the 82 reauthorization in his office along with the pen Reagan used to sign it into law.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is the Republican who's the chair of the Judiciary Committee.
[SPEAKER_04]: He's looking at the end of his term and he's saying, if we wait till 2007, I'm going to be replaced by a reactionary.
[SPEAKER_04]: So we should actually do this a year early.
[SPEAKER_04]: He puts the Democrat Mel Wat in charge of compiling a big record on this.
[SPEAKER_04]: In a lot of ways, we're very, very lucky how this turned out.
[SPEAKER_04]: Melwatt does an incredible job, brings in dozens of witnesses, produces 12,000 pages of testimony and documentary evidence.
[SPEAKER_05]: The ACLU put out like an 800 page report.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: there was just like this massive like legal NPR effort to get everyone on board right it was a huge job of political persuasion and it it's starting in the house and and then there was a lot of political maneuvering done to sort of put the Senate in a position where they couldn't make their own bill it was introduced into both houses concurrently and things like that so that there wouldn't be a lot of markup and wrangling and things like that and as a result a lot of the debate ended up being about the language provisions and the provision of
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, second language or non-English voting materials and things like that, that was very tied up in the immigration debate.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that's not to say there weren't states in jurisdictions that were tired of being subject to Section 5 preclearance who were complaining, there certainly were.
[SPEAKER_04]: But it ended up being a massive political success, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: And George Bush was very happy.
[SPEAKER_04]: He got to sign this big landmark piece of legislation.
[SPEAKER_04]: It passed 98.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, in the Senate, which is just insane to contemplate now.
[SPEAKER_02]: Israel's not even getting that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, seriously.
[SPEAKER_04]: a huge political coup and just a very, very impressive job.
[SPEAKER_04]: All told the legislative record is over 15,000 pages.
[SPEAKER_04]: It represents months of work, dozens of hearings, hundreds of people,
[SPEAKER_04]: putting in countless hours into reauthorizing this and doing so for 25 years while giving a reconsideration after 15 years to ensure that the provision was still necessary and effective.
[SPEAKER_04]: This was a huge political win.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I think it shows that these political fights are always worth undertaking, regardless of the political conditions.
[SPEAKER_04]: You could have looked at the president and who controlled the House and Senate in 2006 and said, I don't know if this is worth taking up, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, there is always value in doing the work in fighting for a better for your country.
[SPEAKER_05]: So there's an emblematic case that I want to talk about.
[SPEAKER_05]: During the Renguis Court, there were a handful of big voting rights act cases.
[SPEAKER_05]: One of them, maybe the biggest Georgia V Ashcroft in 2003.
[SPEAKER_05]: Georgia tries to do some redistricting and under the voting rights act, they need to get pre-clearance.
[SPEAKER_05]: They need to get their redistricting approved.
[SPEAKER_05]: the plan took a few districts that were heavily black and turned them into districts that were just over 50 percent black.
[SPEAKER_05]: The federal government rejected this, lower federal courts agreed, but the Supreme Court steps in and says, actually, it's okay.
[SPEAKER_05]: And they changed the analysis required for these types of claims to make it friendlier to states.
[SPEAKER_05]: trying to change their voting laws.
[SPEAKER_05]: It had previously been based on what was called the retrogression, the idea that you cannot cause the retrogression of minority voting power.
[SPEAKER_05]: And they basically said, look, that's like a little too narrow.
[SPEAKER_05]: It should be a little more holistic.
[SPEAKER_05]: You should be looking at all these other factors.
[SPEAKER_05]: We don't have to get into the details, but I want to point out a trend.
[SPEAKER_05]: This is in 2003.
[SPEAKER_05]: In 2006, when the reauthorization happens, Congress expressly undoes this holding.
[SPEAKER_05]: The House report said that the ruling was inconsistent with the original and current purpose of the law.
[SPEAKER_05]: So, if you're paying attention, this is the second time that this has happened, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: Back in 1980, the Supreme Court narrows the Voting Rights Act in Mobile, the Bolden Congress has to step back in a couple years later and say, no, you got that wrong.
[SPEAKER_05]: early 2000s, the same thing happens again.
[SPEAKER_05]: So you have Congress passing this legislation, saying, hey, here's a law to protect voting rights.
[SPEAKER_05]: Federal courts try to implement that law, and then a very conservative Supreme Court intervenes and says, no, no, no, you're all doing it wrong.
[SPEAKER_05]: You should be doing it much more narrowly than that.
[SPEAKER_05]: You should be doing it a little more favorably toward these states, and then Congress is repeatedly forced to step back in and say, no, you're wrong.
[SPEAKER_05]: This is what we want it, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: It was being done correctly for decades, and then you fucked it up.
[SPEAKER_05]: Ah, fucked it up.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: So repeatedly interfering with the will of Congress on behalf of conservative political interests,
[SPEAKER_02]: Finally, on the chopping block for the Supreme Court is the preclearance sections, the preclearance provisions of the voting rights act, and Michael, you talked about how preclearance requirements led to 1600 or something proposed modifications by states or local governments on
[SPEAKER_02]: modifications to their voting schemes or voting laws that the federal government struck down said absolutely not or required modification of, you know, that number, that volume shows why a county like Shelby County, Alabama.
[SPEAKER_02]: would be taking this kind of case straight to the Supreme Court because there efforts across the south to try and disenfranchise black voters never stopped and suddenly they see the pathway to it with the Supreme Court.
[SPEAKER_02]: headed up by now Chief Justice John Roberts in 2013, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So what happens in the case?
[SPEAKER_02]: What happens in Shelby County?
[SPEAKER_02]: This is a case by a specific plaintiff making a specific argument.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you would think a voting rights act case that's taken to the Supreme Court,
[SPEAKER_02]: Generally, the plaintiff here would usually be somebody who feels they have been disenfranchised, they have been harmed, right, or a class of plaintiffs who say this policy is leading to our votes being diluted or are right to vote being taken away.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, this is a county suing the federal government.
[SPEAKER_02]: saying that pre-clearance requirements in section 5 of the Voting Rights Act and also the formula by which pre-clearance requirement is determined in section 4b that that is on constitutional as to them.
[SPEAKER_02]: And of course, what happens?
[SPEAKER_02]: We know one of the worst
[SPEAKER_02]: cases of the John Roberts era, one of the worst cases in the history of the Supreme Court.
[SPEAKER_02]: We can say is that the Roberts Court rules on the side of Shelby County, Alabama and by extension, all of the jurisdictions and all of the states that want to disenfranchise black and minority voters.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the argument there, the holding, it's absolutely absurd, but the holding, of course, in a sort of tiki-tak way, they keep the section five pre-clearance requirement intact, but that four B section in the voting rights act, which is, again, the formula by which the jurisdictions that would fall under the pre-clearance requirement is determined.
[SPEAKER_02]: The Supreme Court, in that opinion, written of course by the Chief Justice John Roberts and joined by Justices, Scalia, Anthony Kennedy, Clarence Thomas, and Sam Alito, say that that formula is unconstitutional, it is treating this is this is unconstitutional disparate treatment of the states.
[SPEAKER_05]: It exceeds Congress's power.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, it exceeds Congress's power to enforce the 14th and 15th amendments in this way.
[SPEAKER_02]: Congress doesn't have the power to do this.
[SPEAKER_05]: Well, because the data that they were using was outdated, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And your treating states differently, and in this disparate and unequal way, based on outdated information and data, I mean, look at the world today, John Robert says in this opinion,
[SPEAKER_02]: right, things are good.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't see discrimination in voting.
[SPEAKER_02]: Why would some states have to get proposed changes to their voting policies precleared and approved ahead of time by the federal government that is totally unfair.
[SPEAKER_02]: What are you talking about?
[SPEAKER_02]: Of course, the absurdity, the absurdity that is on its face in this opinion is that
[SPEAKER_02]: to the extent, right, that in franchisement and equality in voting and the increase in black voting in this country has happened has been because of the voting rights act has been because of the pre-clearance requirements under the voting rights act.
[SPEAKER_02]: And finally, what you have in Shelby County is a massive culmination in John Roberts' legacy his project of dismantling the VRA, which you saw from when he was a young whipper snapper back during the Reagan years.
[SPEAKER_05]: I honestly think you might be underselling how bad the arguments in Shelby County are I just read it for the first time Like since we've done the episode so bad like the court never actually explains what the Constitutional mechanism for its argument is right No, there's no citation of the Constitution at all they cite the two cases that were about like states being like allowed into the union Who were they were like formerly dared they're not even on point like it's just it's made up
[SPEAKER_05]: If you take us that back, my 15th Amendment says no racial discrimination in voting and it says Congress can pass laws to affect this amendment, right, to put it into force.
[SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[SPEAKER_05]: So Congress does that.
[SPEAKER_05]: The voting rights act, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: And then John Roberts says no, Congress actually exceeded its power here because the formula it's using is too outdated.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like, where are you getting the power to say this?
[SPEAKER_05]: Congress can pass laws to protect voters from discrimination, unless the formula it uses is too outdated, like accordion constitution says Congress can do this, but there is a hidden implied exception for outdated formulas.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like does that sound right to you?
[SPEAKER_05]: You don't even need to use a formula.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like the Constitution doesn't say you have to use formula to do this like obviously it doesn't say that but you use in a slightly older one in the congressional record so many hearing so many reports so many you witnessed that but John Roberts is being like I disagree
[SPEAKER_05]: It just doesn't make any sense and you know in another context they would never let this fly like I'm sure that there's some fucking formula somewhere figuring out how much of the defense budget goes to one weapon system or another if a court was like this actually exceeds
[SPEAKER_05]: It actually exceeds your constitutional powers.
[SPEAKER_05]: It exceeds your defense powers because of the formulas too old.
[SPEAKER_05]: No one would think that that was real.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's just inconceivable.
[SPEAKER_02]: And what you get in effect is John Roberts being able to talk out of the side of his mouth, because the holding is not that the section five
[SPEAKER_02]: pre-clearance requirement itself is unconstitutional just the formula by which it's determined who falls under the pre-clearance requirement.
[SPEAKER_02]: This in effect right dismantles does away with the pre-clearance requirement.
[SPEAKER_05]: And like you mentioned, John Roberts says, we've seen all these improvements in racial parity so maybe we don't really need this law.
[SPEAKER_05]: This leads to the very
[SPEAKER_05]: in a rainstorm because you're not getting wet, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: The reason that there has been parity more parity is because of the Voting Rights Act.
[SPEAKER_05]: The bottom line here is that the Constitution says Congress can do this.
[SPEAKER_05]: Congress did it and the Supreme Court steps in to say they did it wrong for reasons that cannot be located within the Constitution or anywhere else, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: But before we move on, I want to discuss one thing from this case.
[SPEAKER_05]: Uh, during oral arguments, Scalia made a point.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this last enactment, not a single load in the facility against it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the house is pretty much the same.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, I don't think that's attributable to the fact that it is so much clear now that we need this.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it is very likely attributable to a phenomenon that is called perpetuation of racial entitlement.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's been written about whenever a society adopts racial entitlements, it is very difficult to get out of them to the normal political processes.
[SPEAKER_05]: So what Scalia is saying here is that the fact that the 2006 reauthorization of the Voting Rights Act passed unanimously in the Senate is actually kind of suspicious.
[SPEAKER_05]: Because it indicates that these politicians are subject to some sort of social or cultural pressure.
[SPEAKER_05]: Right, to do this and that it's somehow the courts responsibility to extricate them from that pressure, right, to release them from that situation.
[SPEAKER_05]: I think this is absurd, but it also reveals things about the conservative psyche, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's also sick.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's also sick.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because it's not just like, oh, these Congress people, members of Congress and passing this law, like, there's public pressure, sort of like social pressure.
[SPEAKER_02]: But him identifying it explicitly as a racial entitlement movement, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's to cast aspersions on black people, on minority voters, to say that they feel entitled to something, and that there's so much pressure on Congress to bow to this entitlement.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's wild.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's sick.
[SPEAKER_05]: Keep in mind that I think we talked about this in our original Shelby County episode, but the only thing that any individual person can ever get out of the Voting Rights Act is a single vote.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, yeah, it's insane.
[SPEAKER_04]: Also, I feel like it's worth saying for the record.
[SPEAKER_04]: There is a term for massive social pressure on politicians to vote in a certain way.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's called politics.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's just politics.
[SPEAKER_05]: You just don't like where the politics led.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I'll also add, and this is my favorite little factoid that, yes, the reauthorization past the Senate, 98 to nothing.
[SPEAKER_05]: You know what else was, 98 to nothing?
[SPEAKER_05]: Anthony and Scalia's confirmation vote.
[SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[SPEAKER_05]: So you know, why was why was Scalia unanimously confirmed?
[SPEAKER_05]: Well, a big part of it was because he was the first Italian American justice.
[SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[SPEAKER_05]: Now I wanted to oppose that.
[SPEAKER_05]: In other words, a racial entitlement.
[SPEAKER_05]: Folks.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now you will not believe what happened after the Supreme Court struck down the formula for preclearance.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that is state started passing restrictive voting loss.
[SPEAKER_04]: Literally, Texas on day one, they didn't make it 24 hours.
[SPEAKER_04]: They had a voter ID law that had been previously shot down by the DOJ.
[SPEAKER_04]: They were like, fuck it.
[SPEAKER_04]: We're free voter ID.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, over a hundred in the subsequent decade laws passed and at least 29 states, according to the Brennan Center, they report from a couple of years ago, so I'm sure those numbers are higher.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's had an effect, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, there's some political science that suggests counter mobilization has been effective, but the two biggest, most robust studies we could find, both suggest actually that this has had a
[SPEAKER_04]: Of course, that is wide in the turnout gap between blacks and whites between Hispanics and whites.
[SPEAKER_04]: And according to the Brennan Center's data, which has over billion data points, the turnout gap has been widening in general, but it's happening at twice.
[SPEAKER_04]: the level in previously under pre-clearance jurisdictions as it is in non pre-clearance jurisdictions.
[SPEAKER_05]: So what we're seeing is maybe the data wasn't that old, you know, maybe the data was right.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, the data that's sold in a thousand pages and the congressional record, the dozens of witnesses.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it turns out maybe they knew what the fuck they were talking about in John Roberts gut.
[SPEAKER_04]: This fucking guy, you know, he's bored and buffalo.
[SPEAKER_04]: He's a Yankee.
[SPEAKER_04]: What the fuck is wrong with this guy?
[SPEAKER_04]: Why not get him so much.
[SPEAKER_04]: I hate him so much.
[SPEAKER_05]: I hope he's a build fan.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: That would maybe that would give me some comfort.
[SPEAKER_05]: So we've said that the voting rights act has these two major components.
[SPEAKER_05]: We've been talking.
[SPEAKER_05]: most of this episode about preclearance.
[SPEAKER_05]: But the other one is section two, which gives parties the right to sue for discrimination.
[SPEAKER_05]: So if you feel like you have had your voting rights impacted and franged, you can sue under the Voting Rights Act.
[SPEAKER_05]: That is still going, even though preclearance has been gutted, but it's functionally on the chopping block this year in a case called Louisiana V. Calay.
[SPEAKER_05]: We will get into the details when the case comes down, but basically Louisiana created some majority minority districts in order to comply with its obligations under the 15th Amendment and some white voters.
[SPEAKER_05]: They actually describe themselves as non-black voters.
[SPEAKER_05]: They file suit saying, hey, the government shouldn't really be allowed to consider race during this process, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: Like that's, it should be race neutral.
[SPEAKER_05]: very much a mirror of like affirmative action arguments, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: You have a racialized problem.
[SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[SPEAKER_05]: The government steps in to address it with a solution that factors in race.
[SPEAKER_05]: And then conservative say, no, you're not allowed to factor in race, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: If they win this, section two is still there.
[SPEAKER_05]: but it would be severely undermined because the government would not be able to properly consider race, even though they are addressing a problem that is about race, the same sort of absurdity that we've seen in the affirmative action context, but even more acute, because here we have this like unquestionably constitutional piece of legislation, it flows directly from the 15th Amendment, the 15th Amendment is like no voting discrimination and you can pass laws to make sure this happens,
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, and a quite clear piece of legislation, a quite explicit piece of legislation just being outright misinterpreted.
[SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[SPEAKER_05]: And look at the trend that we've seen.
[SPEAKER_05]: 1980, the Supreme Court narrows the Voting Rights Act.
[SPEAKER_05]: Congress has to step back in.
[SPEAKER_05]: 2003, Supreme Court narrows the Voting Rights Act.
[SPEAKER_05]: Congress has to step back in.
[SPEAKER_05]: Now, in the modern political era, Congress has been relatively dysfunctional.
[SPEAKER_05]: These types of big bipartisan bills, especially on voting rights, forget about, are not something that you're going to see.
[SPEAKER_05]: And so the Supreme Court, it's like a fucking shooting gallery, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: And Congress is not stepping back in.
[SPEAKER_05]: So the Supreme Court would look at that and say, well,
[SPEAKER_05]: Congress can always step back in and amend this if they feel the need if they don't like Shelby County, for example.
[SPEAKER_05]: But they know that Congress is different than it used to be.
[SPEAKER_05]: And more importantly, they had no actual basis for doing it to begin with.
[SPEAKER_05]: They had no actual basis for Shelby County to begin with.
[SPEAKER_05]: So they keep stepping in, fucking with things that Congress has done, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: Congress, the manifestation of the will of the
[SPEAKER_05]: And then they get to step back and be like, wow, Congress can fix it if they don't agree.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_05]: And the only other thing I'll say about this is, I think you can look at this stuff in a vacuum.
[SPEAKER_05]: And you could maybe think of it like it's the affirmative action cases, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: Oh, the conservatives, they don't like to factor in race, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: They don't like to talk about race.
[SPEAKER_05]: But I think if you step back further, it makes more sense.
[SPEAKER_05]: I look at what's happening with ice.
[SPEAKER_05]: I look at Trump's foreign policy.
[SPEAKER_05]: I look at what Trump is done to the administrative state.
[SPEAKER_05]: Is any of this stuff popular?
[SPEAKER_05]: No.
[SPEAKER_05]: Did they even try to get input via democratic institutions?
[SPEAKER_02]: Process at all, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_05]: This is a political movement that is comfortable with minoritarian rule and is not particularly interested in democratic ideals, per se, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: The idea of ruling without the consent of the governed
[SPEAKER_05]: is perfectly acceptable to them.
[SPEAKER_05]: They are happy to strip away your voting power.
[SPEAKER_05]: If you protest, if you object, they don't feel any obligation to entertain you.
[SPEAKER_05]: They're willing to use violence to suppress your voice.
[SPEAKER_05]: Right?
[SPEAKER_05]: If you occupy a political space opposite them for long enough, they'll just strip funding from you.
[SPEAKER_05]: They'll defund your state, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: These are people who have no interest in small, de-democracy.
[SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[SPEAKER_05]: I think you see it in voting rights and you see it all across the project.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, to tie it back to what we talked about in the first episode, movements like that will always rely on violence.
[SPEAKER_04]: And we see that in the violence of ice.
[SPEAKER_04]: We see that in the violence of right aligned street gangs that are now roaming to streets of Minneapolis attacking anti ice protesters and legal observers and things like that.
[SPEAKER_04]: You saw that in the violence against antiwar pro-Kaza protests on college campuses.
[SPEAKER_04]: There is a violence that's necessary to maintaining my noorterian rule and the longer it goes on, the worse it's going to be.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and legally, what this kind of authoritarianism and minoritarian rule looks like in the law is a supreme court that's all too willing to help out with suppression of the vote, with disenfranchisement efforts, and they'll do it in the law to say nothing of the first and men make cases and a repression of speech and the like.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you can see that it's just, that it's one component of the much, much broader project.
[SPEAKER_02]: where hand in hand, you have Trump, you have John Roberts, you have Greg Bovino and the rest of these piece of shit losers holding on for dear life to their minoritarian rule by any means necessary.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, and to get prescriptive before we go, what I mentioned in the last episodes that you could see a trend, the great successes in civil rights history had this in common
[SPEAKER_05]: and disciplined them, treated them as if they were bad actors.
[SPEAKER_05]: It happened in reconstruction, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: Troops occupied the south.
[SPEAKER_05]: They were not allowed to function like normal states.
[SPEAKER_05]: It happened during the civil rights era when you passed the Voting Rights Act, which expressly says, hey, some jurisdictions are bad actors.
[SPEAKER_05]: And we shouldn't be treating them as if they're good faith actors.
[SPEAKER_05]: right and they don't get to do whatever they want with voting like we have to supervise them like fucking nannies like this is what's missing i think from liberal politics and democratic big d democratic politics right now that's right you cannot when we take power back at some point in the future go hands off
[SPEAKER_05]: and hope that normalcy will return or that sanity will return or anything like that.
[SPEAKER_05]: These are bad actors who need to be brought to heal.
[SPEAKER_05]: If you don't do it, then they will do it to us.
[SPEAKER_05]: That's what you're seeing right now.
[SPEAKER_05]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_02]: accountability, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Democratic accountability, accountability to the project of building a democracy, a building and equal democracy, where people have equal rights are protected by a constitution, are protected by things like the Voting Rights Act.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like accountability is essential to democracy, is essential to what the United States ostensibly was trying to
[SPEAKER_02]: going over 150 years of history here, you know, from like the mid 1860s to now, I see, you know, a failure of liberalism, a failure of a system.
[SPEAKER_02]: I see obviously something we're doing is a bit of a
[SPEAKER_02]: with Louisiana V. Calay, the Supreme Court case that's on the Docket this term, but I also think that I want people to walk away from these couple of episodes with a deeper understanding of that history, a deeper understanding of how the system works.
[SPEAKER_02]: and especially the relationship that the Supreme Court has had in this system in actually supporting the dismantling of the Voting Rights Act into here the 2020s.
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, there's a way in which the Supreme Court is a small problem, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: The problem on the Supreme Court is six people and those six people have subverted the will of the American
[SPEAKER_05]: for over half a century.
[SPEAKER_05]: The amount of power that they've aggregated is the reason that we have a podcast.
[SPEAKER_05]: But it's six people at the end of the day.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's not an insurmountable force, you know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_05]: It does not control our country's destiny and any meaningful way.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's exactly right.
[SPEAKER_04]: They're power such as it is, is brittle.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think to that point, like it's easy to look back at this 150, 160 years of history we've been covering and be frustrated, be discouraged, see all these victories that turned into defeats, see all the backsliding, you know, see the end of the voting rights act on the horizon.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I don't think that's the right way to think about it.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, I think segregationists probably have feel the same way looking at this history.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, the slavers thought they had one when they got all their compromises in the constitutional convention.
[SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, the protection of slavery essentially built into our constitutional order.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then they got their asses kicked in the civil war.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I'm sure segregationists felt like they had one when they rebuilt a system of political inequality in the Jim Crow South.
[SPEAKER_04]: They didn't win, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: The fight doesn't end, and just like modern conservatives are the heirs of slavers, are the heirs of segregationists.
[SPEAKER_04]: If you are engaged in any sort of political activity,
[SPEAKER_04]: trying to build a better and more complete democracy are the airs of the union, you're the airs of the abolitionists, you are the airs of the people who fought Jim Crow.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's a fight that continues today.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is not the end.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's just a new phase.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I see it every day when I read the news, I get angry, I get discouraged, but then I look at what's happening in Minneapolis, the way the entire city has come together to oppose these fascist thugs that are roaming the streets.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I am more convinced than ever that once again, we are gonna win.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we inherit a fight here.
[SPEAKER_02]: We inherit a fight that is an honor to take up.
[SPEAKER_02]: And in these two episodes, I hope we've just shown a little bit about some of the mechanics of this, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like how it is built, how it is dismantled, and what it is that we have inherited.
[SPEAKER_05]: Married folks, next week, next week.
[SPEAKER_05]: a mailbag episode, it will be answering your questions.
[SPEAKER_05]: These days, most of your questions are basically, here's this thing that's happening, how could this possibly be legal?
[SPEAKER_05]: And then we will explain to you that it's not, but it's still happening.
[SPEAKER_05]: Follow us on social media at 5.4Pod, subscribe to our patreon patreon.com slash 5.4Pod all spelled out for access to premium and ad free episodes, special events, our Slack all sorts of shit.
[SPEAKER_05]: We'll see you next week.
[SPEAKER_04]: Five to four is presented by Prologue Projects.
[SPEAKER_04]: This episode was produced by Allison Rogers.
[SPEAKER_04]: Leon Nefock provides editorial support.
[SPEAKER_04]: Our website was designed by Peter Murphy.
[SPEAKER_04]: Our artwork is by Teddy Blanks, at Chips and Y, and our theme song is by Spatial Relations.
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